>> yep, it's me again. i am stephanie ruhle. it is midnight in the eastern nine pm out west. we are continuing our special coverage of former president trump's indictment on charges related to efforts to overturn the 2020 election. late tuesday, a federal grand jury in washington, d.c., charged trump with for crimes, include is saying conspiracy to defraud the united states, obstructing an official

proceeding, and conspiring against the rights of voters. it ties these to the violent attack of trump's voters at the capitol on january 6th. special counsel jack smith spoke on that after it was filed. >> it was fueled by lies. lies by the defendant, targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the u.s. government, a nations process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the presidential election. the men and women of law enforcement who defended the u.s. capital on january 6th, are our heroes. they are patriots, and they are the very best of us. since the attack on our capitol, the department justice has remained committed to ensuring accountability for those criminally responsible for what happened that day. this case has brought consistent with that commitment, and our investigation evander individuals continues. >> the indictment names trump

as the only defendant, but it describes six coconspirators working with him to contest joe biden's win in 2020. trump, no surprise, has denied all wrongdoing in connection with 2020, and is set to appear in federal court in d.c. on thursday. with that, let's bring in our lead off lead off panel at this hour, peter baker, chief white house correspondent for the new york times, katie benner, both surprised when the justice department winner, and msnbc analyst, glenn kirschner, ronaldo mary, ottawa so -- and harry lippman joins me here at 30 rock, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general. glenn kirschner, i turn to you first. i want to share what a former judge, michael lubbock, said earlier tonight about donald trump and these charges. >> these are as grave as offenses against the united

states as a president could commit short of treason. >> he lost burns, where he gave lies to attack on a united capital with the intent of disrupting of not preventing all together the counting of electoral votes for the presidency of the united states, which is, in america, a sacred proceeding. he just does not get much graver than that. >> how powerful is of this indictment? >> you know it is so powerful it was so necessary because often we talk about how politics will help us change course. how many times have we heard both the bombs out. let's get rid of the elected officials and put a new batch in their. i have been maintaining for

quite a while now that it really is only the rule of law that could save our democracy. i know that sounds hyperbolic, but without holding donald trump accountable, criminally accountable, for attempting what was an overthrow of our democracy, he was trying to unlawfully and unconstitutionally retain the power of the presidency. this is not a political problem. this is a rule of law problem. and jack smith, having been appointed only in november, he sort of prodded the rule of law back into wakefulness, and seemed to have been lying dormant for quite some time, and now he has done the one thing that i think our nation needed to really be able to move forward as a democracy. >> but it is a political problem, harry, because it is important as these charges are, and the preservation of our democracy, if donald trump

becomes the next president to the united states, doesn't all of this magically disappear? >> yeah, and it's not so magical. it will tragically disappear. but there's only one sane way for the rule of law, and i agree with glenn, here for us to be focused on it. he has to ignore. that he is giving his 35 words today and a very long speaking indictment. he'll talk in court. he has to keep his head down, convince 12 people, and just hope that the rest of the country takes care of itself. there is no other sort of sane approach. >> how important, we'll, let's go back to the january six hearing. cassidy hutchinson. how important was her testimony? because it was sort of, her testimony broke the dam and in many ways brought us here tonight. cassidy, who was essentially a lowest level staff level staffer and made history.

>> it was pivotal. and it still has salient today. what happened to her, she had a trump lawyer, the trump was paying for. she went in the deposition. he urged her to lie, and then she came out and felt terrible about it, got a new lawyer, told the truth, and that did break the dam, as you say. we are now in a situation in which the trump back spent 20 plus million in the first six months on legal fees, including furnishing many of the suspects or witnesses here with their own lawyers. it's sort of been a full employment act for a couple of them in particular. and you have to worry that there's a similar impact here, especially in mar-a-lago. though i know that's not the focus tonight. >> peter, the january six hearing, really, the evidence that was gathered, brought us here tonight. we were just talking about it with cassidy. if nancy pelosi had not swapped out jim jordan for liz cheney,

would we be here? >> it would've been a very different investigation, no question. the committee as originally conceived, a ten member bipartisan with five republicans five democrats, chose a white democrat -- who would've include jim jordan, very partisan, a little bit of food fight, it would've been a partisan battle from the beginning. and instead what you had was james's committee was bipartisan committee. not equal numbered, only to republicans, but there were republicans on there. in which they actually seemed interested in trying to figure out what happened. what were the facts? what was this going to tell them rather than being a fight among themselves it was an inquiry to determine the facts of the situation. you're right. if you read this 45-page indictment and pay attention to the hearings last year, you'll find a lot that is familiar. katie talked about this in the last hour. a lot of the facts here that were already uncovered by the january six committee. so they lay the groundwork, if you will, for what the justice

department could then follow. just determined probably knew a lot, already but could lay down and understand the narrative that jack smith could pick up and put into the indictment. >> katie, this indictment lays out the extreme pressure on then vice president mike pence to go along with the plan. could we see him on the stand? >> i think that we will probably see mike pence on the stand. it's clear that he would tell the truth under oath. there are conversations here, private conversations between donald trump and mike pence that are in this indictment. it's clear that he told the truth to two prosecutors in the grand jury. i wouldn't be surprised to see him. what is interesting is that mike pence has responded to this indictment. he has reiterated that what happened on january six was wrong. a lot of the other candidates who are running against donald trump have been unwilling to say this. rhonda santa said he hasn't even read the indictment. so it's going to be industry to see how republicans in general

respond to this. especially as standard barbers or high standing members of the party asked to take the stand. we could see mike pence, mark meadows, other prominent republicans asked to testify about what donald trump was doing in the days after the election. and so this will directly impact the presidential race. it's hard to see how it wouldn't. >> renata, we are seeing right-wing media say over and over, this is an indictment against freedom of speech. can you explain to our audience how freedom of speech works and what exactly it protects? >> one thing it doesn't protect's speech that involves committing a crime. in other words, if all of us conspire together to fix prices, that is an antitrust violation. in fact, there's a lot of case law out there that says that when you are working together to commit a crime that's not protecting the first amendment.

so trump was talking to a lot of people, to jeffrey clark, rudy giuliani and john eastman but it was conspiring to prevent the peaceful transfer of power in the united states. it's really remarkable, we feel now under indictment was don trump those were indictments of for him doing things either before or after he left office and they weren't core to his role as president. the hush money scheme, that was something that needed to get himself elected, but it wasn't about what he was doing as president. keeping those documents, trying to destroy evidence of mar-a-lago, that was something that -- but here this is about trump acting as president to corruptly stay in power. i think it's so important, and it really has nothing to do with freedom of speech. >> what a little upgraded's,

harry? again, it's not about what trump said. jack smith is like yap, he's a liar, but it's about what he. did >> yes, but smith frames in a particular way. this is, remember, were blitzing through, at finding this detail in that. you can be sure these 45 pages were very carefully scrubbed, talked about, i went through many reviews in the department, and he is telling the story and you can tell it in different ways. first of all, he starts out, paragraph one, he lost the election. let's just forget about that. and then you go through the paragraphs again and again and again, i did all the search fraud, lie, fraud, fraud. in other words, he's framing it. he could frame it in different ways but is a guy who just got up lying, light every day, and exactly, by the way, as renato says lies are not protected by the first amendment. i effectuated these plans by talking. he didn't bring out his gun, but that doesn't mean he's got first amendment protection.

but i think it's a very carefully framed indictment to tell a story a falsehood and if i can add one more thing i think the most important part of it is the caption. stick with. me usa versus donald trump. it could easily have been donald trump plus six, and i think is jack smith looking for speed. those six, by the way, they're in big trouble. >> explain this to our audience. how so? because the delay is really trump's number one defense. >> this is smith responding in the most vigorous way he can. seven defendants, seven occasions for delay, for different motions, et cetera. one defendant, smith is bearing down. i think this has now become, in the pole position for the first -- >> so do you mean, like how walt nauta in the mar-a-lago case, i need some time, i can

find an attorney, and saying codefendant now same thing, you mean like that? >> exactly, except when you're talking jeff clark, and kenneth chesebro and john eastman and the others, you'll have bigger sort of first amendment claims and legal challenges. they are all out. it is zeroing in on trump as the defendant, and i think smith in his 26 words, two of them or speedy trial, the others realize, lies, lies. i think this is really ham he had seen the enemy and the enemy is the calendar plus donald trump. he is in the best position to combat it. >> mr. watts, let's zero in on your specialty. the department of justice has charged, within 1000 defendants, in the capitol riot. what do you make of how jack smith is linking the insurrection to the case against trump? >> yeah, it's pretty clear. i just have to say, stephanie, what is remarkable when you read this from an investigative

perspective, is there is no wiretaps, no undercover's, no undercover investigation, it's all there. they're just going in interviewing witnesses. some people cooperate, that's where the evidence is and that's where they traced to. the second part, this really speaks to what we might see going forward. there are worries about extremism keep kicking up again. probably not. when you look at, this was the way through but every lie that was spoken, this really ties into many trials that are occurring right now for all of these defendants that were taken to prison, essentially, for january 6th. some have pleaded, some have mixed results, but i think in the end, when you look at this, it does come down to the entire conspiracy was a falsehood. and everybody who showed up that they believe this falsehood because the president, who is being charged, was the only continue to speak it. it's gonna have a ripple effect through many convictions around the country. so i didn't think it was very

important that they focused in this indictment very narrowly, that they waited out just in terms of a timeline. very specifically. and everything in here, i would say, all the way up to 75%, when you get to the 30s, page 30's, we already knew all the stuff. it was either through the january six committee or we had already heard it out in the news. i think the only parts that are coming particularly remarkable or mark meadows and mike pence, both in terms of the testimony that is coming out through here. it seems very clear that they are cooperating. they're providing evidence, and they're standing up for democracy. so it's really remarkable, when we looked at all the indictments over the years or when we go through a mass shooter or terrorism case or some sort of conspiracy, this is not that. there's no one to cover, no wiretaps, no advanced search and seizure going on. it's remarkable. no indictment just, the fbi when it interviewed people,

they gave recollections of what happens and you see that trying game triangulated through the document. >> today is a win for all those people that said yeah, we are in the january six hearing, nothing came of, it let's move on. what came of? it charges. tonight. glenn, let's go back to what harry was talking about a moment ago. not charging the coconspirators is one of jacques myths ways to get this thing on track and moving with speed. are there any other levers, though, that you see in these charges, the don trump could pull to try to delay this case? >> oh, he will pull levers. he will pull shenanigans. he'll pull stuff out of a hat. he will pull anything he can pull. he will encourage his lawyers. they will make frivolous claim after frivolous claim. and they will be desperate to try to delay this thing. i don't think jack smith will stand for it. he will hold their feet to the fire. and i know judge tanya chutkan,

who i tried murder cases against back in the day, which was a public defender in d.c., and i was assistant u.s. attorney trying murder cases, i think the world of her. i followed her career. i've been in her courtroom is a federal judge observing her. but most importantly, when i was trying cases against her, she was smart. she was tactically shrewd. she was tough. she was aggressive. but she was entirely honorable and ethical, not to mention fearless. i think donald trump has met his match in a judge, and then some. >> she was also quite tough on those rioters that sat before her in court. she was the one who said, presidents are not kings. >> 100 percent. the other reason why the caption is the most important. >> you're all about his caption tonight. >> i'm all about the caption. those initial stylus. there are about 14 judges on that court. two or three of them might have been in the aileen cannon

category, made us nervous, she is absolutely a no nonsense judge. but also a fair one, as glands, as an intelligent one. and importantly, above her now as a court of appeals that is accustomed to trump delay strategies and have shown the propensity to move through it quickly. so glen is right. he will try everything possible, especially executive privilege claims, but the hand has been dealt in the way that maximizes the chances of getting through it all and having a trial actually finish before november, 2024. >> we were concerned about extremist violence in new york after the stormy daniels hush money arraignment. same thing, we had concerns in miami. they did not play out. it was good for our safety. glenn, how clint, how concerned are you about extremists in this latest latest indictment? >> less, all for a few reasons.

first, if the former president doesn't point people to a specific location, you just aren't gonna see people move there. we did see some protests down in florida, but he actually sort of called for it to be peaceful. i think probably the lesson he's been learned, that's why we see this trial right now. the second part is, the reach of the former president in social media and other media tapes is not that. and the third one is how many hundreds of not thousands of people were burned on january 1st for the sixth, former president knew the diamond was false from the start. everyone told on. that was going to fall for it again? i think people may show up. you might see supporters rally in certain ways. but i'm not seeing the kind of thing that you would've seen in 2020, the proud boys, the oath keepers. they have been indicted. they've been charged. there isn't that same coalescing right now. it doesn't mean you won't have what we would have a soul casting terrorism supporter

which auburn maybe commit violence. but there has to be a time in place to do that. we have not seen yet. something to watch for. but also, i think, people can be fooled once. the second time the story is a bit different. i think you see that in the indictment today. >> clint, i have to go to commercial, but has the support that trump is had from the proud boys in the oath keepers, has any let support waned while so many of them are sitting in jail? >> i think it has waned and changed. waned in the sense that how long can you be excited about the same sort of narratives being spun out over and over again from 2015 till today? it's the same record that keeps getting played. really hard to get exciting about. the second thing is, some lessons learned for a lot of those supporters, especially as they watch what happens to the proud boys in the oath keepers. and in the ranks of a lot of extremist groups are what we would call potential extremist groups, we saw fractures in those groups, where people said hey, i'm not in for the

violence. i don't want to assault law enforcement officers. i don't want to be going after cops. so you saw them kind of break and go indifferent directions. so i don't see that kind of intensity that we would have seen from 2017 to 2020 and into 2021. i think it's very different right now. >> waned and changed. everyone is sticking around. we have a lot more to cover. what we are hearing from members of the january six committee about their work and now these charges. especially addition of the 11th hour, just getting underway on this doubleheader. this doubleheader.

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baker. let's talk about the gerry sixth committee. how much did their work lead us to tonight? >> well, their work laid out the conspiracy, and jack smith is called it. through hearing after hearing, identified the major players, identified the key dates, the key moments. if you read this indictment and you read the jarry six report came out and the beginning of this year, you would feel like they are very much of a piece, in fact major elements of the conspiracy that jack smith is alleging here were known to us at the end of that hearing. so that committee did something that is rare in washington. it produced a very thorough, comprehensive picture of a major event in washington without the partisan rancor of a lot of committees these days. and laid the groundwork, you would argue, for the justice department found fall off and say the facts say that they laid out, we can bring the

grand jury and define, under the statutes, how they constitute criminal offenses. >> katie, did what happened today vindicate the committee? we saw all sorts of republicans spent a lot of time attacking the committee in general, saying we never needed it, what was the point? >> i think that the indictment certainly supports the committees work, and it certainly gives the committee a lot to cheer about a lot feel good about. i don't know that it's ever going to vindicate the committee in the ends of its detractors. at this point we are so polarized in the country, and people have such firm opinions about the committee and about the special counsel's work that i'm not really sure any indictment is going to convince those people who already think that this is wrong, that in fact jacks mitt has the evidence to show that the former president committed a crime. that's a problem for where we are in this country, because we have to take this case to a trial and we have to see the evidence laid out before the american public.

this is come up again and again in different parts of the show. previously this idea that donald trump has continued to attack the integrity of the jam six committee and the investigation to his work around january six is really notable. he is in many ways and has been trying to influence potential jury pool since the day, since january 7th. and so it's great to be really interesting to see what kind of impact he has had. >> but hugely challenging for donald trump, because, to katie's point, america saw what happened on january 6th. we saw it over and over, the devastating images. and despite the fact that all sorts of lawmakers like to try to say it was just another day at the capital, just some good old americans there on a tour, we know that wasn't the case. we saw it with our own eyes. glenn, the fact that we saw what happened on january 6th, we saw the january 6th hearings, how problematic is it that these upcoming trials won't be televised and a time when

misinformation canons are blooming across the country? >> i think it's a travesty that the american people will not get to see what is a public proceeding. the only thing stopping the public from seeing it is it's going to be in a courtroom that holds maybe 50, 75, 100 people. now in d.c. federal court they also broadcast to satellite courtrooms in the courthouse. but it is a limited number of people that get to see this. i think the fact that we saw it with her own eyes, we saw the attack on the capital, we saw the brutality perpetrated against police officers, is part of what left us all so frustrated, because we've waited literally years now for some accountability for the suits of the insurrection, not just the boots of the insurrection, donald trump's footsoldiers. this indictment takes us

halfway there because january 6th and the violence does sort of make an appearance as something of a bit player in this indictment. donald trump is not charged with the insurrection. i understand why there are tactical reasons why jack smith wanted to steer clear of that. but for goodness sake, i hope, and i believe it's the chief justice, who would have to give the go ahead two cameras in a federal courtroom so the public can see what is probably the most consequential criminal trial in our nation's history. >> if the chiefs chief justice will make that determination, who wouldn't be requesting it, and are they doing so? we renato? >> i think at the end of the day it's going to be an indictment that is focused, i think, on the scheme and the coconspirators. i really expect to see another

indictment coming after this, charging the rest of the co-conspirators. i wouldn't be surprised if we saw more meat on the bones. this look like me looks to be like a case like in many ways, it's a way of trying to race to the finish line. we saw the exact opposite last week. we saw a superseding indictment, and in many ways jackson's trying to strengthen his hand, now worrying about, the delay. what i see in this indictment, is jack smith being able to tell the defense, you saw the evidence on tv, you saw virginia six hearings, and now he's going to be able to move forward and push for that speedy trial and follow along with a way to hear indictment in terms of more defendants, more counts, and something that is going to potentially lead to charges for some of these lawyers, which will raise complicated issues. >> i want to stay on this.

harry, is there an effort, we were just hearing how important it would be for the american people to see these proceedings. this case is all about defending and preserving democracy, which, in truth, their eyes glaze over and they're like, what? but it couldn't be more crucially important to how we live our lives every day. so is it jack smith who would be making this request? is he the right person? and is he doing? >> he's not the right person. really it's the chief justice. but is it point important? yes, it's important. bring back to the wider gate lozano-able moments when people came forward. to katie's point, mark meadows is going to testify here. vice president pence is going to testify here. these would be moments that would really bring home maybe a big civics lesson to the country. instead we're gonna have this aspect, this split screen, and trump is going to, in his

campaign, keep disparaging the actual proceedings, we have to hope that they will come out okay. but in terms of the broader lesson that they could be, the fact that they are not televised is a huge missed opportunity for the country. >> clint, today i was thinking about those capitol police officers who spoke at the hearings, whether it was caroline edwards, harry dunn, and how brutally difficult these last months have been on their physical health, their mental health, their jobs. what do you think today has been like for them? so many who felt like they were giving up hope that donald trump would ever be held accountable. >> i think it's some form of resolution. it's not all the way there, but what you do see today is that there is someone who is responsible for this entire scheme, and they have been indicted. up to this point. and i have to say reviewing

some of the cases, when you look at the testimony that you see all of those that were there on january 6th, i don't feel sorry for them, but you could tell that they were misled. that really comes through in a lot of sentencing documents, where they actually believed that the election was stolen. today, when you go through that indictment, you can see how many people that were very closely around the president. how many actions failed to follow through or didn't go through, how much of a conspiracy there wasn't all of those states to really push a falsehood. and they kept pushing that falsehood over and over and over again. so i think for those law enforcement officers there that day, and for every american hand to witness what happened on january 6th, hopefully this can bring resolution that those that are actually orchestrating this event, those that put the impetus there, the push that false belief out, there might be held accountable. i hope that's a powerful reflection after waiting all this time. >> thank you all so much for joining me tonight. peter baker, katie benner,

glenn kirschner renato mariotti and harry litman, i appreciate you all. when we come, back we'll gunning look at the political impact that trump's indictment might be having on the 2024 race. when this second hour of the special edition of 11th hour continues. ur continues. ffer, until, i saw how easily it picked up my hair every time i dried it! only takes a minute. look at that! the heavy duty cloths are extra thick, for amazing trap & lock. even for his hair. wow. and for dust, i love my heavy duty duster. the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact, up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked. you'll love swiffer. or your money back!

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late? we are continuing to follow the breaking news. former president donald j trump indicted by a washington grand jury on four charges. i want to break down the political impact with my colleague john allen, senior national politics reporter for nbc news, and former republican congressman david jolly of florida. david, what's your reaction? >> look, it's certainly a grave moment, i think, as everyone knows. i'm more captivated, though, a little bit, stephanie, by this political question. because despite all the lowering that one into this indictment, i'm not sure the jack smith indictment and altman trial is going to bring the final closure to this. i think it is going to be a political question in the november 2024 election. and what i mean by that is the gravity is around donald trump being charged as a former president. the complexity to this though for the country's donald trump

the credible candidate for the white house, who intends to run on a campaign of absolution and retribution, seeking to use the most basic democratic process of all, ironically, a free and fair election to be absolved of his most undemocratic behavior. and that is a tough moment for the nation to reconcile between our fragility and our resilience, the notion that a major party candidate, a credible candidate, electorally still in this country, we'll be asking for political absolution of the alleged crimes in the jacks mitt indictment. that's a tough moment for the country. and i think we may not be fully prepared for what that will put us through within our body politic over the next 18 months. >> john, what do you think about that? right? donald trump is currently the clear front runner. his best defense in these three separate indictments that he is facing is to delay as long as

possible, when the election, wipe all of this out, and spend the next four years seeking revenge. >> this is an amazing case, first of all, stephanie, because the facts are not really want to be in dispute. the question is whether the president was allowed to do what he did. mike pence, the former vice president of the united states, not joe biden, not democrats in congress. former vice president mike pence today said our country is more important than one man. and i think this trial is meant to be a test of that. and more than that, the election itself is going to be a test of that, does this country, to the voters of this country look at donald trump and say he is more important than the peaceful transfer of power, then fair elections, or in fact is the country and accountability and the democratic system we've lived under more important? >> but david, this man is not running unopposed. there are a host of other republicans vying for the

republican nomination. and i want to share what our mutual friend michael steele tweeted just a few months ago, where he writes not one of the gop presidential candidates can figure out how to run against a guy who's on trial for a rape charge, paying a porn star hush money, violating the espionage act, and conspiracy to overturn the results of an election. he's got a point. none of these people can breakthrough against a guy with this kind of baggage. why? >> the [laughter] well, part of is there recklessness and incompetence as candidates. but the second part is a reflection of where today's republican party is. and that has to be studied through almost a cultural and sociological lens, this metamorphosis of the republican party in the last decade. but it is still is right, you are as well, to focus in on republicans. because our first test for the body politic is whether or not the republican party had a partisan allegiance, allegiance, ignores their political stewardship obligation, and then goes and dominates donald

trump. and then it becomes a general election question then. i think it's fascinating that donald trump likely will not be in jail. he will be a free man when he stands for election, either because he's able to delay the trial, or because perhaps he has been acquitted of the crimes. or if he's been acquitted, because he's awaiting sentencing or he's on appeal. so, donald trump will have all these legal wrangling's as they question before voters next november, if republicans don't choose or find themselves incapable of stopping them. >> what do you think, john? >> i think there was a little bit of a display of republicans saying that, the ones we expected, coming out and hitting donald trump. they tend to be the ones who are doing very well. the ones who are doing a little bit better and not very well have decide to distinguish themselves. so, ron desantis today basically follow the line of donald trump that the government is being weaponized. and his big suggestion was that the trial should be removed

from washington d.c., where the alleged criminal conspiracy happened, because he thinks donald trump can't get a fair trial in washington to see. where again, donald trump is accused of having committed these crimes. none of the republicans who are serious contenders have been able to or willing to come out against trump. and that's because the voters in the republican party will not allow them to do that. >> david, what does your republican crew, right, your policy, the kind of people that subscribe to the republican ideals that you once did when you sat in office, what do they think of all this? because you just said a moment ago if any of these other candidates can take on trump, the majority of them aren't trying. that's >> right. and i don't know if i have a republican crew anymore. because not only has there been the ideological shift away from conservatism to kind of angry populism, but there also has been this acceptance of very anti democratic themes, and reasons for outsiders to

question the patriotism of those who continue to back donald trump. and i don't know if there are people hanging on to the republican party, other than those who truly believe it will come back. but it won't. it's over. it's done. ron desantis's lack of willingness is a major party candidate today is a reflection of where the party is. donald trump will likely be convicted through one or more these cases, but still will be the republican nominee. and still will be supported nationally, largely by republicans. >> ron desantis, wants to be president of the eyes, face wants donors to give millions of dollars so he can run. yet on the day that his number one rival is indicted, he didn't have time to read his 45-page indictment. think about that, donors. the jon allen, david jolly, thank you both for being here. coming up, we're going to look ahead for the next investigation trump could face charges in. we're gonna take the midnight train down to georgia when this two hour special edition of the 11th hour continues. ♪ ♪ ♪

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emerson political contributor. greg, i want to start with this call, this call between donald trump and -- it made an unexpected appearance in today's indictment. what can you tell us about that? >> yeah, this caller got overshadowed by some of the other calls donald trump made to other georgia officials, like secretary of state brad raffensperger and governor brian kemp. but it was a key part of this indictment. and the call was made december 8th 2020, at a time when texas was pursuing a legal -- a lawsuit, seeking to invalidate georgia's election results. don trump called chris car, attorney general, who just issued a statement saying this lawsuit was null and void, it was a terrible idea, urging him to get on board and urging him not to tell other republican attorneys general to defy it. chris car apparently told him to kind of shove it, that election results would be upheld in georgia, and that he

wasn't going to back, he wasn't going to suddenly reverse course, back this lawsuit, seeking to invalidate georgia's results. >> today, fani willis shared some of the racist threats that her office has received in recent months, but he also said it was typical. tell us more about that. >> look, she's been facing security threats throughout this. right now, there is barricades outside the courthouse in approach and in advance of protesters. but she decided to share with county leaders some of the private email threats she's been getting, racial slurs, epithets, personal slurs, that she says are just symbolic, emblematic, of the type of pushback she's been getting from trump supporters. it was more of a reminder to them to stay vigilant over these next few weeks as she nears her decision about whether to charge donald trump, which we all think she will do. but as she gets closer to that decision, she's urging them to

be vigilant, because their staffers could be at risk as well. >> and that's what i want to go a little deeper on. she said it just this past weekend, her office is getting close on a charging decision, then the fulton county sheriff said his department is ready for a possible indictment. so, is it not -- is it going to happen, but when? >> yeah, i think it's a when, not if. and looking at weeks, not days still -- [inaudible] everything going to be this week is what we're hearing. but it could be the next few weeks. and look, she's never been rushed. this is not a competition for who goes first or second. now, this would of course be the fourth criminal case against donald trump. it's also very complicated. there's a lot of moving parts. there are about 20 people who have gotten target letters. so, this is a -- this could be a squall or. she could seek charges against not just the former president, that any of his top allies, and

some members of the fake gop electors sleet here in georgia. >> a sprawling case, and we haven't even seen an indictment yet. that is the possible next one after -- not tonight, yesterday's, essentially, third indictment of donald trump in the last four months. that is going to do it for me, and greg bluestein, thank you for being here tonight. and thank you at home for watching us all night and these last two hours. i certainly hope you stick around with msnbc for the week. where we have a lot to cover over the next few days. but for now, i wish you all a good and safe night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up extra late for this special to our edition of the 11th hour. i'll see you at the end of today. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ everyday products, designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that- i need a breakthrough card. like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more.

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>> good evening and thank you for being with us tonight for this special coverage. he is of course innocent until proven guilty and he will and should mount a robust defense against these charges, and he should be acquitted if he didn't do what he is accused of. but if the allegations made by the justice department in this indictment are proven, if the former president did what he is accused of, history is going to ask a diff