listen to this. >> i think i might have voted for him if that wouldn't have happened? >> caller: really. >> it may be, that january 6 situation, it was -- it was the tipping point for me. he can be bought and he can be sold. >> everybody has to pay no matter who they are. if they do something wrong, you got to pay. >> don't do the crime if you didn't do the time. >> i'm sorry, isn't that what america is about? we're trying to get back to the right america. and that's what we need. >> reporter: and i did speak to trump voters more staunchly in his camp, no matter what, they're thinking, thinking about voting him. everybody is deciding what to do next after the bombshell yesterday. back to you. >> steve, thank you so much. we've got a lot to cover in our second hour of "chris jansing reports." let's get right to it. ♪♪

at this hour, former president trump called to court tomorrow after historic 30 indictment. >> just over four months, the special counsel alleging a campaign of fraud and deceit, as trump tried to cling to power after an election he was repeatedly told he lost. the new details about his actions. plus, he allegedly didn't do it alone. the indictment lists six co-conspirators. and even though they're not named, the descriptions provide plenty of clues. also ahead, the trump team fights back, comparing the indictment to nazi germany and fanning the push for a speed did trial as absurd. and now the former president and his campaign blasting out email after email, asking donors for cash to fight the charges. our nbc news reporters are following the latest developments. we want to bring with nbc's ken

dilanian. ken, you're reporting on it and the question of whether or not president trump will actually show up in person. what can you tell us? >> reporter: chris, sources familiar with the matter tells that you mr. trump will be at the courthouse in person for the arraignment as his lawyers will scomber a plea. the charges will be presented to him, this is 4:00 p.m. in front of a magistrate judge. we sort of saw the script for this in miami. it's not an eventful hearing but it's symbolically important because he'll be appearing in a courthouse less than two miles where he used to live in the white house. and another person who may be there, special counsel jack smith. mr. smith made an appearance after the indictment was issued yesterday and gave a statement to the news media. take a listen to what he had to say. >> since the attack on our capitol, the department of justice has remained committed to ensuring accountability for those criminally responsible for

what happened that day. in this case, my office will seek a speedy trial so evidence can be tested in court and judged by a jury of citizens. >> reporter: the speedy trial thing is very interesting because it seems pretty clear to legal experts that the special counsel has crafted an indictment here designed to get to trial quickly. an indictment naming only donald trump as the defendant. six unindicted co-conspirators, an indictment that does not charge him with insurrection or inciting violence but narrow obstruction, and people's rights, related to the lies he told knowingly about obstruction fraud. mr. trump has defenses and that remains to be seen how quickly the case can get to trial, chris. >> ken dilanian, thank you. and the unnamed co-conspirators.

we did get clues what can you tell us? >> reporter: right, chris, the clues, we're watching that up with the 8 i have-page january 6th report, of course the reporting of colleagues in washington, d.c., and nbc putting it all together. bid, these individuals are unnamed in here. they haven't been charged, it's also possible they could be charged in the future. but based on that let's take a look at this list. it appears based on what's contained in the indictment, matching this up to testimony and evidence that we saw, that co-conspirator one appears to be rudy giuliani who actually worked on behalf of the president and was kind of the leader of his efforts to look into their claims of election fraud back following election day. co-conspirator two is believed to be john eastman because according to the testimony and what we saw in the january 6th report, he's somebody that came up with a memo and a possible plan for vice president pence at

the time to use his ceremoial role in the electoral college votes and certifying that to somehow stop that voting in delay with any sort of certification. co-conspirator three, this is well reported that former president trump referred to sidney powell as, quote, crazy, when he put a phone call on mute in the oval office. that's who we believe, co-conspirator to be. co-conspirator four, jeffrey clark is a person we believe to be that co-conspirator because it's very clear in the report that the person in the indictment is the same official who proposed sending memos to certain states saying, hey, we think there's election fraud. you need to dig deeper and basically postpone certifying the election. co-conspirator five is somebody who, again, is just drawing offer the indictment, the

inferences and reporting is believed to be kenneth chesebro, somebody referred in the fake elects, fraudulent electors as said in the indictment i was referencing earlier. and then co-conspirator six is a little bit of a mystery, because it's not clear from the indictment who that individual might be. there's several people whose roles could fit within the definition, on page 4 of the indictments. at this point, we're not going to mention anybody's name until we can get clarity. based on the descriptions and what we learn later in the indictment and matching it up with statements. we continue to report out on co-conspirator number six, chris. >> tom winter, thank you. later, a deeper dive into the co-conspirators what we can learn about who is allegedly on the list and more interestingly, who is not. we've got two legal experts joining me now.

next to nbc's garrett haake, we had some strong statements, one invoking nazi germany. >> yes, chris, it was just a matter of when, they were ready with a lengthy, sometimes, hyperbolic statement the minute it became public among other claims calling this an un-american witch hunt, standard fare for trump talking about the investigations. also compares this particular case to 1930s's nazi germany and the regime. pretty clear how the trump campaign feels about this moment. that language has been echoed in some corners of the republican congressional delegation. a lot of his allies using the same language to describe a political prosecution. they say is time to help joe biden and bury negative hunter biden news that came out earlier in the week. and the question of timing

that's come in mr. trump's attorneys that made it clear they're not interested in a speedy trial. here's what john lauro told savannah guthrie. >> the prosecutor says let's go to trial, clearly you're not ready? >> 3 1/2 years. the bottom line is they have 60 federal agents working on this. 60 lawyers, all kinds of government personnel. sand we get this indictment. and they want to go to trial in 90 days? does that sound like justice to you? >> well, maybe -- >> is that justice. >> they want to go to trial so that instead of debating the issues against joe biden that president trump is sitting in a courtroom. how is that justice? >> just a fact check, it's 2 1/2 years since january 6. the general orbit here do not want to go to trial on this before the 2024 election.

they're go to do everything they can to delay, delay, delay. and not push for a change of venue, basically any legal tactic to push off the start of this trial will be used, chris. and we might see that as soon as tomorrow's arraignment. >> garrett haake, thank you. now, right after this indictment broke, within minutes, team trump went it into fundraising mode. what have we been seeing? >> reporter: yeah, chris, our inboxes have been bombarded with trump emails. the latest one ends up saying joe biden's justice department wants to put donald trump in prison for life. please donate to his campaign and associated committees. and, chris, it's worth noting that the biggest fundraising days that donald trump's had in his campaign so far for 2024 occurred after his previous indictments and arraignments. the ones back in march and april, on that hush money case. as well as the one in the

mar-a-lago document case back in june. and so, you're trying to -- you're seeing the former president and his campaign trying to capitalize on this in believing that they are being persecuted. and the best way to fight back is to give the former president his campaign money. >> mark murray, thank you for that. mike pence, we talked about the fact that he had some strong statements after what happened yesterday. he's going to be in the indiana state fair in indianapolis talking about the economy. but then, took some questions, and of course, those questions were about this new indictment. again his former boss. let's take a listen. >> january 6th was a tragic day. and i've spoken and written about it extensively. i have nothing to hide. my god's grace, i believe we did our duty that day, fulfilled the oath that i'd taken to the constitution and to the american people. and the constitution is quite clear about the role of the vice president in the counting of

electoral votes. it essentially says the vice president presides over a joint session of congress where the electoral votes that are certified by the states shall be opened and shall be counted. and irrespective of the indictment, i want the american people to know that i had no right to overturn the see election. and then on that day, president trump asked me to put him over the constitution. but i chose the constitution, and i always will. and i really do believe that anyone who puts themselves over the constitution should never be president of the united states. and anyone who asks someone else to put themselves over the constitution should never be president of the united states again. i've been very forthright about this issue and i'll continue to be. now, with regard to the substance of the indictment, i've been very clear, i had homed it wouldn't come to this. i had hoped that this issue sand

the judgment of the president's actions that day would be left to the american people. but now it's been brought in a criminal indictment. and i can't assess whether or not the government has the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt what they assert in the indictment. and the president's entitled to a presumption of innocence. but for my part, i want people to know that i had no right to overturn the election. and that what the president maintained that day -- and frankly has said over and over again over the last 2 1/2 years is completely false. and it's contrary to what our constitution and the laws of this country provide. you know, i'm a student of american history. for the first time i heard in early december somebody that as vice president i might be able to decide which votes to reject and which to accept, i knew it was false. our founders had just won a war against a king.

and the last thing they would have done is vest unilateral authority in any one person to decide who would be the next person. i dismissed it out of hand. sadly, the president was surrounded by a group of crack pot lawyers that kept telling him what his itching ears wanted to here. what i made my case, what i understood my oath to the constitution to require, the president ultimately -- ultimately, you know, continued to demand that i choose him over the constitution. and so in this moment, irrespective of how this case plays out, i want the american people to know that i believe with all my heart, by god's grace, i did my duty that day. and as i stand for the republican nomination for president, i want them to know whatever it means, i'll always stand on the united states of america. our country is more important than any one man. our constitution is more

important than any one man's career. and that's true of me. and that's true of the president, former president of the united states. so we're going to stand on the facts. we're going to stand by what happened that day, and the stand we took. and trust ourselves to the judgment of republican voters. and ultimately, the american people. >> at the indianapolis state fair, we have not heard mike pence quite like that before with such a strong defense of his actions on january 6th. and calling some of the people who surrounded donald trump on that day crack pot lawyers. it comes, of course, after special counsel's indictment gives us new insights into the former president's pressure campaign to have pence overturn the election results. it was a campaign that ended on january 6 with a mob at the capitol chanting "hang mike pence." and rioters getting within 40 feet of the vice president as his security team rushed him away. joining me here, nbc's dasha

burns who has been coverage the pence campaign. susan del percio, a republican strategist and msnbc political analyst. it's so so interesting to hear him say, susan del percio, this is more important than any one man's career. >> uh-huh. >> but he was never considered the top challenger to donald trump but the minute donald trump started going after him, you could make an argument that his campaign was doomed very early. is that an acknowledgement to you that he thinks maybe he understands that his campaign is not over, it's close to it. or what do you make of what we just heard from the former vice president? >> i hear someone who's almost there. and what i mean by that, while he hasn't made the qualifications for the debate stage yet, mike pence needs to finish these sentences or use the word donald trump. no one should put themselves above the constitution, is what

he said. he should say donald trump had no right to put himself above the constitution. donald trump had no right to ask me to overturn the election. there is not a lane for mike pence to win this race. but there is a chance for minimum to be a part of history and in a very positive way, he's voted so heavily throughout the indictment. he's, obviously, a key witness for the prosecution. he should speak up and speak loud and tell people what happened that day. it's going to come out. it should come out on his terms. he's not going to be the next president of the united states. this is his moment. >> then, we did get some clues in this indictment, i mean, mike pence is mentioned a lot, susan. one of the striking sections of the indictment is page 33. it detailed how trump berated himself on christmas day and new year's day. on december 25th, when the vice president called the defendant to wish him a marry chris

magazines. the defendant quickly turned his conversation to january 6th and his request that the vice president reject electoral votes that day. the vice president pushed back telling the defendant as the vice president already had in previous conversations, you know i don't think i have the authority to change the outcome. and then on january 1st, trump told pence, you're too honest. it's a fascinating pullback, isn't it, on the curtain of what was going on in the days leading up to january 6? >> it absolutely is. here's what we also know, there's more of these notes. we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. and when we hear thinking like "oh, you're too honest" that just says trump is willing to be dishonest. especially when pence is out there, say that donald trump asked me to do something that was illegal. full stop. let it hang out there. the country needs it. he's dedicated to the country, to the american public, help us. speak the full truth.

>> dasha, we heard that pence to be contemoraneous notes. tell us about? >> it's really not only running against his former boss, when mike pence announce head was running that was sort of a historic moment in and of itself, now the former president's freedom might potentially hinge on what mike pence witnessed, what he took specific notes on, and his relationship with this man, the former president's relationship with a man who was a former ally but whose life he arguably put in danger on that day, on january 6th. and he has the receipts here. there are multiple instances, just in this indictment alone, where we see the pressure campaign again and again. i mean, christmas, new year's day, right, where you see him telling mike pence, no, you can do this. they're circulating memos with plans for the vice president to

reject votes. to accept fake electors. to do these things that the vice president is continuing to say, i do not have the authority to do your own counsel is saying i do not have the authority to do so. and these notes really go, i think, to the mind-set. because that is what ultimately is going to be the crux of the case here, i'm no lawyer, but what the former president understood about the election, whether or not he knew that it was in fact a legitimate election. and whether or not he understood that, whether he was told that, and how many times he was told by the people around him, that's going to be critical. and these notes are really a linchpin in that. >> pence's imability, dasha, still, to name-check donald trump under these circumstances, have you heard any second-guessing, as he's near the bottom of the polls, he's struggled, that's an

understatement with fundraising. any second-guessing from the campaign about their approach to the allegations against trump? >> not yet directly with me. and i have asked him directly with his campaign about this. but i will tell you he's in such a tough spot because he's been trying to walk this fine line. look, the folks who love trump and the republican party think he's a traitor. at a recent event in iowa, the family leadership conference, he was booed. he did not get a warm reception, especially when he talked about the election and what he did january 6th. people are unhappy with him on the other hand, anti-trumpers, they're asking, susan, why isn't he naming donald trump? why some he more forceful? this is the most exasperated and the closest today we've heard him finally sort of laying it all out there. he's getting there, but he's not there yet. but i think he's starting to

realize, you know, the chickens have come to roost here. >> dasha burns, susan del percio, what a great conversation. thank you both. special counsel jack smith wants a speedy trial but how likely is it we'll see it before the election? we'll be right back. just sinex, breathe, ahhhh! [sniffs] what is — wow! baby: daddy. sinex. breathe. ahhhhhh! i'm jayson. i'm living with hiv and i'm on cabenuva. it helps keep me undetectable. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva is two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's really nice not to have to rush home and take a daily hiv pill. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or if you taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms,

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that's what i thought. introducing the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. whatever pressure special counsel jack smith has felt leading up to the latest indictment of donald trump he hasn't shown it, letting these 45 pages that are broad and deep

with evidence speak for themselves. those charges are notable both for the details and for what he left out. no charge of seditious conspiracy, for example. no charge of assisting or aiding the insurrection, despite the fact it was specifically recommended by the january 6 committee. i want to dig deeper with civil rights attorney charles coleman who is also a former brooklyn prosecutor and msnbc analyst. and kristin greenberg who served as a federal prosecutor for fdny. give us your feelings on the indictment, why these four and not the other charges? >> well, you have these charges where there is very clearly the means and the method that was set out as to how donald trump was trying to hold on to his office. and it's just very clear. you can show the pressure

campaign on the state officials. the pressure campaign on electors. the pressure campaign on mike pence. it just tells a very, very clear story. i think when you have -- and there is mention in the indictment about using that violence in order to, again, get to that same result. but in terms the insurrection seditious conspiracy charges those run up against some first amendment defenses that i'm guessing jack smith just didn't want to deal with, he thought he could incorporate that in much different charges. >> so, writing in "the new york times," the beauty of this indictment is that it provides three legal frameworks that prosecutors can use to tell the same fulsome story. he says later that the facts that support one charge support all of the charges, how do you see this overall strategy? >> well, chris, i see it as something that's going to be able to use narrative that can

build on itself. what i mean by that is, as you said, all of these charges cascade into one larger offense, and they paint one cohesive narrative. that's not only important for the case that jack smith is bringing against donald trump but equally important for the cases we will likely see him bring against the co-conspirators. he's rolled together a scheme to tie together this into a wholesome narrative to try to convict donald trump. the smartest thing and practically it makes a lot of sense because it is going to help him get to a speedy trial much faster than they would if he would try to do it with other charges, additional charges or name the co-conspirators at this time. which is difficult to do as a federal prosecutor, i can tell you, that's something that you normally see. and the fact that he hasn't done that is a clear indication that he wants to move forward with

the case. >> one of the defenses that donald trump, his lawyers, his supporters like to talk about he believed everything he said about election fraud was true. but the indictment says, quote, the defendant was notified repeatedly that his claims were untrue. then it lists all of the people who told him, the vice president, senior leader of the justice department. director of national intelligence. dhs cyber security, infrastructure security. senior white house attorneys, state and federal courts, the defendant's attorney general, the acting attorney general and acting deputy attorney general. and his own campaign manager. what does the jury do with that? and what does the law say about that? can his defense just argue, yeah, all his people told him that? and he just didn't really believe it. >> well, that just doesn't seem credible, right? you have all of these witnesses that jack smith is about to bring up, by the way, that donald trump appointed to these

positions. his own white house counsel, his own doj officials. he appointed these people. to say all of these people cooperated and said we delivered a clear message to him that there was no election fraud. it's going to be hard to counter that. especially there's also testimony presumably from caddie hutchinson who testified before the house select committee that she overheard conversations that donald trump acknowledged that he lost the election. similarly, there's also likely to be testimony that he said prior to the election even happening that this election fraud allegation was going to be his strategy because he thought he could. so given all of that together, this knowledge, proving up donald trump's knowledge that he knew that these election fraud claims were false and being used as a pretext to try to stay in power i think will be very, very straightforward for jack smith to do. and for a jury to understand.

>> big question, charles, how long will it take to us get there? we know from looking at the calendar and the campaign and legal proceedings are butting up against each other. the e. jean carroll trial goes on the 15th, that's the iowa caucuses. the constitution wants to give the defense an appropriate period of time to prepare for trial. what's a reasonable time line here? >> chris, i've been taking bets on this all day. and i think what we will likely be seeing here is some sort of date that is occurring within the first quarter of 2024. i think that's very reasonable to see something in february of 2024, set as a trial date. i'm not saying that's when it will go to trial. but i think that's incredibly reasonable. i think it's something that donald trump's defense team would have a difficult time arguing against. it's not what he would want to see happen. but i think launching the argument to try to delay it much farther than that at least initially is going to be pretty

difficult. i would say the first quarter of 2024. >> charles coleman, thank you. christie greenberg, you're going to stay with me. rudy giuliani says he's probably co-conspirator number one in the indictment but he still hasn't been contacted by the special counsel. what might that signal? we'll discuss that and much more, after a quick break. but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can dramatically relieve ra and psa symptoms, including fatigue for some.

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the indictment of former president trump lists six unnamed co-conspirators who allegedly tried to help him overturn the 2020 election results. as we go over it this hour we have a good idea who five might be. take co-conspirator number one, rudy giuliani saying it felt like his client. an attorney who knowingly president fake claims about the election. once known as america's mayor. >> the thing that really hits me in the heart this is

co-conspirator one which is to me rudy giuliani the former united states attorney for the southern district of new york. who i used to say proudly hired me. i can't say that now. and it's -- you know, it's really sad. >> i want to dig into what these co-conspirators could mean with-ary melber and our msnbc correspondent kristy greenberg is still here. that was dave kelly with you last night. we watched rudy giuliani openly doing what he did after the election. maybe most famously tell four seasons landscaping where he was outside in that press conference. it was arguments he would hold on to for months. did this indictment tell us anything we didn't know about his role, first of all? or about any opportunity jack smith might see to indict him down the road? >> well, it's a great question. i would say it does not add a ton of information about many of

the new co-conspirators, it was laid out by the january 6th committee, by journal journalis. and as to whether or not they charge him, everyone has just got a crash course in law school on procedure, because we've seen the same case against the same defendant, donald trump and those co-conspirators were charged. going into court getting their arraignment. tomorrow, one person goes in, donald trump, no co-conspirators. whether that's a strategy for speed, as you were discussing earlier in the program, a strategy for cooperation, or something else that jack smith knows and we don't, i think it's too early to say, but, yes, legally, any and all of these people could be charged. >> none of the co-conspirators, kristy appears to be mark meadows. he was the former chief of

staff. he was around the former president. what do you make about no signal that anybody here is not mark meadows? >> we know he went into the grand jury. there was public reporting with that. he's been strangely silent. that tells me likely cooperating otherwise, we would have seen him as a co-conspirator. >> earlier, i asked garrett haake what he's watching for. two words, mark meadows. what do you make of his lack of appearance? >> well i think you can see part of the indictment yesterday -- we went through it, and today, you have evidence inside the room. in some cases, you said what's new. the fascinating new part where mike pence calls donald trump to wish him merry christmas. we learned a little bit about his christmas habits. in hanukkah, you have eight days. a lot more time, 24, 25, and

clearly pence makes that call, and it's supposed to be that kind of call. and it's legally relevant that the defendant movesing the conversation back, seizes on the intersection to pursue according to the smith indictment a criminal plot. that's presumably from pence, a reference from pence's notes, those are his notes, unless somebody rebutts that -- we know that's it. in page 41 of the indictment, we see trump is in the, quote, outer oval office with aides. the defendant says, see this is what happens when you try to steer elections. people are unhappy. you don't put that in quotes and jack smith is by the book, unless you have it. and we haven't heard about a white house tape system or someone in the room. mr. mark meadows is on a very short list of those type of individuals. we will see in the weeks ahead,

especially when it goes to trial, who is going to substantiate that. clearly, they think they have it. >> kristy, caught my ear, a short statement yesterday after the indictment was released and he said that he's going to continue the investigation. right? it made it clear that even though the only person being indicted here didn't mean that this was over. do you think, potential culpability from some of the five that we know, maybe there's a sixth. who knows? >> yes. i -- there is a lot of evidence here, particularly, with respect to co-conspirator one who is believed to be rudy giuliani. co-conspirator two appears to be john eastman. and i would say co-conspirator four jeffrey clark. those three, there is quite a lot in this indictment, not just lies, but lies that had a

specific purpose to help donald trump stay in power. and so, why were they not charged in this indictment when, based on just the facts that were produced here, it appears they could have been? i suspect that the special counsel wants to separate them, because there's going to be at least donald trump's lawyers have said, an advice of counsel defense. and a lot of times when attorneys -- their advice is at issue, those attorneys are then going to to turn around and say i didn't have all the facts. my client didn't tell me everything. i was misled. once you have everybody pointing fingers at each other, those cases send to get severed. so when jack smith wants speed, he'll have the lawyers to separate that. >> kristy greenberg and ari melber, we'll be there at 6:00 p.m., it is your show.

thank you both. security risks around the vice president accused of exploiting the violence on january 6, a former fbi official returning, next. helping businesses both large and small, communities and the people who live and work there grow and thrive. we're proud to call these places home too. they're where we put down roots, and where together, we work to help move everyone's financial goals forward. pnc bank. have fun, sis! ( ♪♪ ) ( ♪♪ ) can't stop adding stuff to your cart? get the bank of america customized cash rewards card, choose the online shopping category and earn 3% cash back.

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charging trump include inflaming even more distrust of what his allies will claim is a partisan weaponized justice department. injecting into an elect rid and inflamed and divided and most frightening, unleashing a punitive psyching of prosecuting pretty opponents. and now the question is will it be worth the risk? >> frank figluzzi is here. former intelligence officer at the fbi. frank, good to see you. there is no doubt there's a risk reward calculation that had to be made here, right? an awful lot of smart legal minds are saying this is by par the biggest case, the most important case, against donald trump. where do you come down in that calculation? and what do you think the month ahead looks like, frank? >> yes, ruth's column is worth the reed, chris, because any serious person is not spending their time right now rejoicing

over this. they're simply saying i understand the gravity of this moment. and the decisionmaking process that had to go into this. but when you're faced with literally an existential threat to democracy, that's the core pillar of democracy, free and fair elections, and you aren't sure what to do, you need to do what the facts and the law dictate. and that's what will we heard from merrick garland in that brief statement he made walking down the street the other day to reporters. he's following the facts and the law. and, so, the risk benefit analysis goes something like this, yes, there are security concerns around inciting a trump base. we don't want to see violence again, of course. and yes, there are even greater societal concerns about indicting somebody while they're running for president again of the united states. and whether that's going to have an impact on that free and fair election, ironically. but on the other side, here's

the benefit. the benefit is we get to say to the rest of the world and to ourselves, we still stand for democracy and the rule of law. and when the facts dictate we're going to indict people for crimes, regardless of who they are. so, looking back on this jack smith, merrick garland, all of us, his prosecution team, the agents involved all have to look back some day and tell their grandkids when democracy merited, when it really counted, we did what we thought was right. i stand for them for doing what the facts and law dictate. >> let me read another pardon of the indictment, given your background if i can, it says the defendant and co-conspirators attempted to use the power and authority of the justice department to conduct sham election crime investigations and to send a letter to the targeted states that falsely claimed that the justice

department had identified significant concern that may have impacted the election outcome. i'm sure that's concerning to read. i also wonder the folks you've talked to who have come under attack from many sides of what has happened in the aftermath of january 6, the aftermath of the election, that this isn't in some ways a chance for them to say we did our jobs, we didn't just stand for democracy, but here we are, showing the system works? >> indeed, this is deeply meaningful for all of these people involved. and that is what i'm hearing. and accountability is not over. we've been repeating the fact that jack smith at his brief press conference chose, you know, minimal words out of that press conference. but one sentence at the end said this investigation continues. and there will be, i'm convinced of it, additional accountability in the days, weeks and months

ahead, regarding the ultimate slate of electors. and perhaps even the is violence we saw at the capitol on january 6. but this is also about what jack smith chose his precious time in that press conference to say which was agents and the prosec and law enforcement generally at the capitol that day, they're heroes. they did their job and history is going to shine very positively on those people. >> you know, i think they talk about the bigger picture, security concerns, but there is also one tomorrow, right, because we know the special counsel is working under the assumption that donald trump will appear in person at the courthouse. what is going on securitywise to prepare for that and washington, d.c., which, you know, has had more than a few big events, nevertheless i think some people still are nervous given what they saw on january 6th. do you have any doubt they can handle security tomorrow? >> so, the good news is that

this courthouse in the district of columbia is very much accustomed to high profile defendants and hearings. sources in the federal government tell me, look, they are -- they are joined at the hip with the metropolitan police department, the u.s. marshals, secret service, fbi, jttf, all coming together. they do this routinely. they are developing intelligence, there are working sources, they're permitted to work, they're checking chat rooms of known violent extremists and what i'm hearing is that the chatter is still something like this, this is a setup, the deep state did this, but we don't want to go to prison like the over 1,000 people who have been arrested so far for violence on january 6th. so that unquestionably has had a chilling effect. the other interesting phenomenon here is that, you know, the risk matrix and the risk line in that matrix goes up the closer you get to indicting the -- a candidate for president and

eventually go to trial and eventually it maybe looks like a conviction, the threat level goes up among the base. however, his base is pretty much saying right now, we don't really care, because we're going to vote for him even if he's behind bars. there is this mitigating effect to the threat, but regardless of all that, what i keep hearing is that the lone actor is what bothers folks. they can't get out ahead of that lone person intent on harm and i'm convinced there will be strong security to prevent against that at that location. >> frank figliuzzi, good to have you on the program. thank you, frank. appreciate it. it is being called most important legal case of our lifetimes. will we see cameras inside the courtroom? and what are the consequences if we don't? that's next. he consequences if we don't that's next. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley.

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we're just hearing from u.s. capitol police, i can't tell you exactly what's going on there. i can only read for you what they are tweeting out. two tweets. one just a few minutes ago, our officers are searching in and around the senate office buildings in response to a concerning 911 call. please stay away from the area as we are still investigating. we will continue to communicate with the public here. and then a second tweet, if you are inside the senate buildings, everyone inside should be sheltering in place as the report was for a possible active shooter. it should be noted that we do

not have any confirmed reports of gunshots. so, again, just a concerning 911 call, but concerning enough, they have told folks to shelter in place. as we get more information, we will have it for you. it has been nearly 24 hours since the new trump indictment was made public, with political and legal voices even in just the last few minutes on this show emphasizing just how important this case is. so you can read articles with headlines like these. the trump indictment that really matters, the most important case in our nation's history, the trial america needs. i want to bring in pulitzer prize winning columnist for "the washington post" and msnbc analyst eugene robinson. gene, we can get a little hyperbolic. we can own to that, right? this is something different, i think. when i've been listening, when i read the indictment as i know you have, it does have this

sense of something that as has been noted on our air could have the impact of a brown v. board of education, a dread scott. how do you see this moment, eugene? >> it is a huge moment. this has never happened before. we have never seen this before. a former president, has been indicted. we have seen donald trump indicted before. this time he's being indicted for thins he did while serving as president. what is at stake is what he allegedly did was interrupt the peaceful transfer of power, a tradition, a law, a practice that we have had going back to george washington and handing off to john adams. so, this is -- could not be more important. and it -- it's -- we read a lot

of what seems to be hyperbolic rhetoric about it, but i don't believe it is hyperbolic at all. i think this will be remembered by historians. >> and given those stakes, former acting u.s. solicitor general neal katyal, our friend, argued last night on our air, this trial needs to be televised. take a listen. >> the reality is tv and visually seeing it in live real time is going to be the most important antidote for disinformation. and the idea that we're going to have this trial, the most significant trial in our lifetime and not on television i think is really dangerous. >> how do we get this trial televised? what are the rules? how is it done? >> the way in which it gets done and it would be historic is for the chief justice, john roberts, to authorize the televising of this trial. >> even trump's lawyer has said just a few weeks ago thinks it should be televised.

how critical do you think that is? >> i think it is very important. i frankly don't think it will happen. the federal courts have been so conservative and so reluctant to have especially criminal trials televised that i find it difficult to believe that the chief justice will take that step. nonetheless, i wish he could. because i can't think of anything more important. we're dealing with the former president of the united states. it happens that he is running to become president of the united states again. that -- the voters, the american people ought to be able to see the testimony, to hear the evidence and to watch the proceedings and make their own judgments about fairness, about what they think of the president's culpability or lack thereof. i think that that's very important. i think it would help us get

past this moment. but i frankly doubt it will happen. >> eugene robinson, always so great to have you on the program. thanks for coming on. that's going to do it for us. be sure to join me, andrea mitchell and ana cabrera at noon tomorrow for special coverage of trump's arraignment. our coverage continues right now with yasmin vossoughian. hey, everybody. i'm yasmin vossoughian in for katy tur. a conspiracy fueled by lies. that is how jack smith previewed his historic election interference indictment against donald trump. and the 45-page indictment that lists at least 30 times the former president's claims of fraud and unprecedented interpretation of the constitution were refuted or questioned. the special counsel alleging donald trump proceeded not only to lie and push the opposite of what hecocted a criminal scheme