past this moment. but i frankly doubt it will happen. >> eugene robinson, always so great to have you on the program. thanks for coming on. that's going to do it for us. be sure to join me, andrea mitchell and ana cabrera at noon tomorrow for special coverage of trump's arraignment. our coverage continues right now with yasmin vossoughian. hey, everybody. i'm yasmin vossoughian in for katy tur. a conspiracy fueled by lies. that is how jack smith previewed his historic election interference indictment against donald trump. and the 45-page indictment that lists at least 30 times the former president's claims of fraud and unprecedented interpretation of the constitution were refuted or questioned. the special counsel alleging donald trump proceeded not only to lie and push the opposite of what hecocted a criminal scheme attempt to reverse the results.

that's the center of jack smith's case. donald trump is not being prosecuted for lying. he's being prosecuted for the deliberate and criminal steps he took alongside his six co-conspirators to stay in the white house and the quote, unlawful means they pursued to subvert the results in several key states. after the election, in michigan, the indictment noting this, in a private oval office meeting, with the state's senate majority leader, donald trump raised a false claim of an illegitimate vote dump in detroit. the senate majority leader told trump that he, quote, had lost michigan, not because of fraud, but because the defendant had underperformed with certain voter populations. prosecutors then say trump brought his false vote dumping claim to his ag, who told the former president what happened in michigan was, quote, the normal vote counting process and that there was no indication of fraud in detroit.

the very next day donald trump say this, made a knowingly false statement that in michigan a vote dump came in unexpectedly saying, quote, this, nobody knows anything about it. it is corrupt. detroit is corrupt. on december 7th, the indictment says, despite still having established no fraud in michigan, co-conspirator one, who we know is rudy giuliani, sent a text intended for the michigan senate majority leader saying so i need you to pass a joint resolution for michigan legislature that states that the election is in dispute. ultimately that michigan senate majority leader declined. it is one piece of a large and messy puzzle. we'll get into the co-conspirators jack smith says helped him along the way and the former president's strongest defense now. we want to begin with the reporting and then what happens next. joining me now, ryan reilly, from outside the courthouse in

washington, d.c. donald trump set to appear there about 24 hours from now, tomorrow, from what we know. what do we know about that appearance? >> reporter: luckily the line hasn't started yet, but there is i lot of anticipation here. someone dressed up as donald trump in an orange prison jumpsuit was in the location behind me a little while ago doing interviews with reporters there. some of the fanfare has become. we expect barricades to be set up around this courthouse. we expect that means one entrance will be open. the secret service has to work closely with the u.s. marshals service, the park police. we're in an area that is, you know, within sight of the crime scene, which is sort of remarkable here. we can see the u.s. capitol from where i am standing now, a few blocks away. so you're going to have a lot of law enforcement agencies that need to coordinate for this

security situation, to make sure everything is kept safe in this unprecedented event. we haven't seen indications thus far on social media from what i've seen and some of the experts have been looking at anything overt. but it is sort of a stand by, i think, scenario for a lot of donald trump supporters. we have seen violent reactions to charges before. after the raid in mar-a-lago, an individual was physically here on january 6th and was on the grounds of the u.s. capitol and ended up going to an fbi headquarters location there. i think it is something that law enforcement has to be ready for, potentially, a reaction to this incredible and sort of historic and unprecedented indictment of a former president and it is the largest one of the many investigations that he is facing right now. >> ryan reilly, i'll be down there beside you tomorrow as we await the former president's arraignment. for now, thank you. want to bring in former u.s. attorneys joyce vance, barbara mcquaid, both msnbc legal

analysts. joyce, let me start with you on this one. as i mentioned, as we came into this hour, lies are not enough for jack smith and he stated that pretty clearly in this 45-page indictment. this is about much more laid out in paragraph four of this indictment where he notes about the unlawful means of discounting legitimate votes and subverting the election results. joyce? >> that's right, yasmin. the line that smith sets up in this indictment is there is a certain amount of conduct that is awful conduct, but we have to tolerate it. because we are a democracy. and the allegation is that trump ultimately crosses over the line between awful and unlawful and once he's done just talking, just pushing the lie, even taking legitimate actions like challenging results in court, and he moves on to doing things like entering into conspiracies designed to subvert the justice

department, to push the fraud line even further, that he's in criminal territory. so that's the construct that smith has set up for this prosecution. >> barbara, i want to dig into count four. both you and joyce are interested in count four this conspiracy to interfere with voting rights. why is this specific language this specific count so stunning to you as laid out in this indictment? >> well, i think this count is so important, yasmin, because i think when we think about count one, conspiracy to defraud the united states, we think of it as a crime against our government. when we think of obstruction of a official proceeding, we think of it as a crime against the members of congress in the joint session that day to certify the vote, but this one, this deprivation of rights, this one is targeted against us, the voters. the citizens of the united states who cast their ballots for joe biden have been deliberately interfered with.

that is the one that really hits home as the attack on democracy and why it is so poignant that that charge is included in this indictment. >> can you kind of draw on that a little bit as we're talking about count four here, specifically, essentially the victims here are the american people. how do you see the former president's attorneys defending these actions? >> well, i'm sure we'll hear all sorts of arguments ranging from the inevitable legal argument that the constitution nowhere specifies a right to vote. that's true. the language you have a right to vote does not appear in the constitution. but, of course, it is implicit from the surrounding context. and courts should make short shrift of that sort of argument. we'll hear the more detailed arguments that trump perhaps never formally entered into a conspiracy, where the object was to interfere with the vote, because he believed that he had won. he in fact believed what he was doing was effectuating the wishes of the voter, and so much

of this will come down to jury issues, it will be a question of who the jury believes after they hear the evidence. >> i think i'm reading through, this 45-page indictment. all the states in which these fake elector schemes were drawn up, arizona, georgia, michigan, nevada, new mexico, pennsylvania, wisconsin, and all these states it was clearly laid out in this indictment and yet we know there is a potential indictment coming down by fulton county d.a. fani willis. i'm wondering if you're thinking the same thing as to where there aren't more in depth investigations happening within some of these states and could that be in the potential pipeline considering what has been laid out here by the special counsel? >> it could be but it is a lot to bite off and chew if you're a county prosecutor or state attorney general. i give a lot of credit to fani willis for taking this on. it is enormous and immense. in michigan, there has been a charge filed against the 16 fake electors. but within each state there is a little conspiracy. and it is not so little.

it is just one of seven. i think one of the reasons fani willis acted so quickly is because she had that really powerful evidence of the recording of donald trump, pressuring brad raffensperger to find him 11,780 votes. i don't know if we have such open and obvious recorded evidence in the other states, and it is probably convenient to just sort of stand down and let jack smith do his thing. in theory, all seven states could bring charges, separate sovereigns and they have the right to do that because the crimes that have been at least allegedly committed against their citizens are different from the federal crimes that have been committed. >> the smoking gun in the phone call referenced also in this indictment as well, in which the former president asked then georgia secretary of state to find the 11,000 plus one votes. joyce, draw for me on this idea that jack smith chose to move forward with just one defendant, that of the former president of the united states, donald j. trump, but not charging for now the six co-conspirators, five of

which we know the identity of. >> right, so this is, i think, something that we should acknowledge. we just don't understand precisely why smith made this strategic decision. it is possible that we will see a follow on indictment, the original indictment could be superseded. there could be additional indictments charging these people. the one thing we can't see in my mind is a failure to hold some of these people accountable. for instance, co-conspirator number four is, i think, undoubtedly jeffrey clark. he was the head of the environment and natural resources division at the justice department. and he interacted directly with trump at these pivotal moments and he agreed that he was willing to pervert the purpose of the justice department. that he was willing to reach out to states and lie about the existence of fraud in order to throw the certainty, the conclusion of the election into doubt in the public's eye.

you know, doj federal prosecutors like barb and myself were instructed to indict the most serious readily provable charges that we have based upon the evidence. here the government has put forward a lot of evidence in this indictment that suggests that these six or at least some of them can be charged. this sort of conduct is far too serious to commit the people to just walk away from. so i think we will ultimately see some form of charges brought here. >> barb, and while there is not -- this is not prosecuting the lies the former president told, it is about his efforts to subvert the results of this election. this is about building a case of intent. what he knew and when he knew it. and i want to speak briefly about mike pence's role in all this, the former vice president of the united states, who offered a statement a little bit earlier today as well. mentioned this document a

hundred times in the 45 pages and within this indictment saying this, on january 1st, the defendant called the vice president and berated him because he had learned the vice president had opposed a lawsuit teak sikhing a judicial decision that at the certification the vice president had the authority to reject or return votes to the states under the constitution. the vice president responded that he thought there was no constitutional basis for such authority and that it was improper. in response, the defendant told the vice president you are too honest. does this in fact prove the intent that the former president knew what he was doing was wrong but he did it anyway? >> yeah, when you tell somebody they're too honest when they object to your plan what does it say about you? an admission i'm dishonest? i think that's the way i read that. no one piece of evidence is dispositive of any issue because a jury has to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. but if you look at all the

allegations in the indictment, it just piles up. there is william barr telling him there's no fraud, there is chris krebs, the cyberczar, telling him there's no fraud. his own director of national intelligence, members of his campaign team, again and again and again he's told there is no fraud in this election and yet as soon as he's told that, he goes right back out and persists in his false claims. he may say i had no idea, i still believe i won to this day, but the jury will be instructed on something known as willful blindness, a person cannot deliberately ignore a high probability that a fact is true, just by being blind to it, just by pretending it doesn't exist. i liken it to a toddler who puts his hands over his ears and says i can't hear you. at some point a jury is allowed to draw a reasonable inference that he knew. >> my kids do that and they always know what i'm saying. thank you, both. appreciate it. breaking news we have been following in washington as well. capitol police locked down and evacuated the russell senate office building after receiving

reports of a possible active shooter. this according to two law enforcement officials who spoke to nbc news. joining me with more on this is senior congressional correspondent garrett haake. what do you know? >> reporter: a short time ago, capitol police officers began evacuating the russell senate office building over my shoulder here, just across the street from the capitol itself. staff members in other office buildings were told to shelter in place, lock down, close their doors, keep their electronics on silent while officers investigated reports of what they believed to be an active shooter call. i should make the point there has been no indication of any shots fired. no one has found anyone with a weapon. capitol police are taking this very seriously now. i talked to several staffers who are rushed out of the russell building at gunpoint, officers with guns drawn, moving people through the hallways, getting them out. i did just speak to the capitol police spokesperson who said they're continuing to search all the senate office buildings, the three buildings on the far side of the street from the u.s.

capitol, looking for something, anything to match up with what may have been a 911 call that came in. so far, they are finding nothing. they're taking this very seriously. congress is out, they're on recess, most staffers are working remotely if they're working at all this week. folks here describing very frightened by this, being rushed out of the building at a pace they never experienced before. clearly not a drill. clearly something they're taking seriously. we expect to get a proper briefing on this from capitol police as soon as they have more information to share. right now they're still searching, not clear on exactly what they're looking for. but no specific reports shots fired, but this partial evacuation, partial lockdown under way of the senate office buildings. >> let us know when you get updates on that, thank you. appreciate you. coming up, so how do you defend donald trump? i'm ask one of his former attorneys after the break. plus, why this indictment is as much about the future of the republican party as it is about donald trump.

and who is the judge assigned to this case? what can we expect to hear from her? i'll speak to someone who knows her pretty well. we're back in 60 seconds. o know her pretty well. we're back in 60 seconds (♪♪) astepro allergy, steroid free allergy relief that starts working in 30 minutes, while other allergy sprays take hours. with astepro's unbeatably fast allergy relief you can astepro and go! i'm mark and i live in vero beach, florida. my wife and i have three children. ruthann and i like to hike. we eat healthy. we exercise. i noticed i wasn't as sharp as i used to be. my wife introduced me to prevagen and so i said "yeah, i'll try it out." i noticed that i felt sharper, i felt like i was able to respond to things quicker.

and i thought, yeah, it works for me. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. joining me now, jim parlatore, served as donald trump's attorney until his resignation in may because of infighting with boris epstein. he represents former nypd commissioner bernie kerik who turned over thousands of pages of documents to jack smith's office as part of the investigation into trump's efforts to overturn the election. tim, thank you for joining us on this, i appreciate it. i want to play for you some sound, the former president's attorney who appeared on the "today" show, john lauro, kind of staging some of the defense, it seems like we're going to be hearing in the coming months and have you react on the other side. let's listen. >> this indictment is criminalizing conduct, not speech. >> it is criminalizing speech

for this reason. what the president saw in the 2020 election was all these irregularities going on. he had every right to comment on that, and act politically. in a criminal case, what they would have to show is all that speech is not entitled to first amendment protection. he'll never be able to do it. >> tim what is your reaction to that? >> you know, he's kind of hitting the point that all of these counts do require corrupt intent. they require him to know that these claims of fraud were false and be pushing them anyway. the first amendment aspect of it is not something that i really see as applicable here, so much as you just focus on what the elements of these crimes are, and the element of corrupt intent really laser focus on that because if he did believe that there was fraud, and he was taking these actions based on that good faith belief, then it is not a crime.

if in the alternative as jack smith has claimed he knew that these claims were not true and pushed them anyway, then it could constitute a fraud. >> so what do you make of the conversation that i was just having with barbara mcquaid and joyce vance in the last segment, in which the former vice president of the united states sat down in the oval office with the former president of the united states and told the former president of the united states that the election was not stolen and that in fact he did not have the ability to overturn the results of this election on january 6th when the election should have been certified and the president looked at him, the president at the time, and said, you are too honest. and repeatedly he was told by his acting attorney general at the time, along with white house counsel as well, that the election was free and fair. and there was no fraudulent claims of election that he was making it out to be. what do you make of all of that when you talk about the intent? what the former president knew at time and what he acted on?

>> so there is a couple of elements here. this is what the january 6th committee tried to do, they tried to say certain people told them there was fraud, other people told them there weren't, and to them make a judgment call after the fact that you should have listened to these people, not listened to those people. that's not something that stands up in a criminal case because they have to really show beyond a reasonable doubt that he knew that there was no fraud or as your prior guest mentioned there was an avoidance of the truth. but having different people offering differenting opinions, you're going to have to go with a jury and really dive down into exactly what each of these people said who they are, what he knew about them, what their role was. for example, rudy giuliani is going to come in and say i've been spending 24 hours a day looking at this stuff and this is what we found versus mike pence who is going to sit there and say, i have no role in any investigation, but i read a couple of things. >> he benefits -- but, tim, i don't mean to --

>> that's where you have to compare. >> i hear what you're saying. it benefits the former vice president of the united states if donald trump won this election, right? it benefited members of his cabinet if he were to have won this election. it benefited the acting ag to win this election, the justice department, assistant ag for office of legal counsel, all of these people that told the former president of the united states that the election was not stolen, and all of these fraudulent claims were unfounded, it benefited them. but yet they told him this anyway and he chose not to listen. and instead went forward with this scheme. >> and that's why it is going to have to go to a jury. and, you know, a jury will be able to assess which one of those people they believe. you talk about mike pence would have benefited, but yet, you know, the information we have now is something that mike pence apparently told the special counsel and the grand jury after

the fact after he's already announced he's running for president against donald trump. so he does have something to gain by donald trump getting arrested, indicted and convicted here. so, really all of that, you know, you can make arguments on either side, but it does come down to a jury's decision, and because this is a criminal case, not a civil case, it does have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. i can see the argument if you sit here and say you ignored all this other advice, that that will work in a civil case, where you're talking about a negligence standard here. but this is a criminal case, you have to prove knowledge, actual knowledge and intent beyond a reasonable doubt is a different standard. >> would you want to be on this team right now, tim, defending this case? >> it is an interesting case to try, i obviously have personal reasons why i stepped away from it and, you know, if -- >> would you do it? if he asked you to do it, would you do it? do you think the prosecution is too strong at this point?

do you think the case is too strong or would you want to be on it? >> just based purely on the case itself, reading the indictment, i do think it is a worthwhile case to be involved in and to try. if he asked me to join this team, we would have to talk about some other conditions. >> let me ask you this one final question and talking about timing. savannah guthrie talked to the former president's attorney on the "today" show earlier today and asked him about timing. and he said benefits the defense to have a speedy trial as jack smith wants, but yet maybe we should get three and a half years because that's what the special counsel got, right? if the former president is innocent here, wouldn't it benefit him to be exonerated on the american stage ahead of the election? wouldn't that be secure votes for him more than anything? >> it would, but here's the thing. i look at this as an attorney, i'm not involved in the campaign. you set aside the election for a second and look at it, in order

to get this case to trial within the next 15 months, it would require the defense to wave a lot of significant motions. it would require the defense to essentially not look at the millions of documents that they're going to be produced during discovery. the document discovery in this case is going to be much more extensive than what they had in the mar-a-lago case and there are significant motions they have to litigate regarding privilege, regarding executive privilege, a lot of the things that we dealt with during the grand jury phase. and so, really to try and get this case to trial quickly, you have to essentially forgo a lot of those legal defenses just to prioritize pre-election trial and doing that, you increase the likelihood of a conviction and then from the attorney's perspective increase the likelihood of malpractice. i would not advise that at all. set the election aside and just focus on the facts, the he was and the law and just try that

case. >> tim parlatore, thank you, sir, appreciate it. >> thank you. up next, the choreography of the cases between civil, criminal and now federal. which one gets priority? plus, what impact this third indictment is going to have and republican voters, will they continue to back trump and nominate him again? inue to backd nominate him again (fan #1) there ya go! that's what i'm talkin' about! (josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is?

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all right, welcome back. former president donald trump now facing 78 counts across three cases with more likely to come as we watch for an announcement for fulton county d.a. fani willis. with this comes an extremely busy calendar, especially as we look ahead to 2024 where a presidential election will run with a series of trials. joining us, paul butler. good to talk to you about this stuff. first, let me get your quick reaction to tim parlatore who i just spoke to, the former president's former attorney.

>> so, yasmin, tim suggested trump's defense will be that he really believed he won the election in part because some lawyers told him that. but for all of the whacko lawyers who fomented the big lie, more lawyers and more credible lawyers including the acting attorney general and the white house counsel told trump that there was no fraud. and tim is right that it is a credibility determination that the jury will have to make. jurors are told to use their common sense. he suggested that rudy giuliani might be a witness for the defense on this issue. yasmin, having tried many cases in front of d.c. juries, i'll give trump some free legal advice, don't put rudy giuliani in front of a d.c. jury. >> there you go. former president, if he's listening, that's the advice from paul butler. the calendar, we're waiting for the three indictments, waiting to hear what is coming out of

georgia as well from fani willis in the coming weeks from what our reporting is telling us. if you're looking at prioritizing this calendar, especially as we're coming up on the 2024 election calendar, who gets priority here, paul? how do you -- how do you organize this thing? >> so for the january 6th prosecution, two different pressure points for setting a trial date. one is that trump is going to have three other competing trial dates. the state cases i don't think will be an issue. the d.a. said he'll allow a federal prosecution to take precedence over his hush money case. and if fani willis brings racketeering charges against trump, and others, that's a long complicated prosecution, plus, i don't think d.a. willis will mind seeing what happens in the federal january 6th trial since her case will use some of the same evidence. but there is also an issue with

other cases in a d.c. federal court, where 24 judges have january 6th related cases already with the speedy trial clock ticking in those cases and jack smith doesn't have a right to have trump's case bumped up against those other cases. it will be up to tanya chutkan and the other judges to work this out. >> so i want you to talk a little bit about tanya chutkan, the judge here in this case. i know you know her, you've known her for two decades now. she has handed down some heavier sentences for january 6th defendants, she's also ruled against trump previously. what more do we know about her? >> i'm thinking about two kinds of justice poetic and legal. poetic, presiding over trump's trial will be a black woman immigrant. he doesn't like being judged by

anybody, but he hates feeling challenged by black women. his targets are our colleagues, joy reid and chutkan is an immigrant, the legal justice is that none of that will matter to judge chutkan. she's a former public defender, she will give trump all of the fairness and process that he is due. she'll let the jury decide the case. and if it returns a verdict of not guilty, she'll be fine with saying those words that defendants love to hear, mr. trump, you are free to go. but if he's convicted, based on her sentencing and other january 6th cases, judge chutkan is likely to send the former president to prison for a very long time. >> paul butler, thank you, sir. appreciate it. coming up next, everybody, how do democrats message around this unprecedented third

indictment to capture the undecided swing voters who are exhausted by donald trump? but not ready to go all in for president biden. we'll be right back. o all in for president biden. we'll be right back.

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the proof is leaning toward his, in my view, a treasonous act against the government of the united states. >> if ever he has earned or deserved something, it is another indictment.

>> i'll be pleasantly surprised if something actually comes of it, because i don't think it will change the state of the race or how republicans feel about him because i don't think there is any last step for them, they're all in. but it is nice to see something is actually happening. >> if anything his legal troubles appear to have further solidified his hold on most gop voters who according to our own nbc polling continue to view trump as the target of politically motivated sabotage to derail his candidacy in 2024. and as you just heard, even this week's latest indictment with trump now facing more than 70 felony counts does not appear to have changed that perception. nbc news steve patterson is in henderson, nevada, talking to voters about the impact of this week's indictment in that early primary state. steve, we know the primary campaign season is really in full swing there already. what are voters telling you? >> reporter: yeah, it is

certainly in full swing. the primary coming sooner than in other places. so, you know, campaign ads are on tv, they're on billboards, we're seeing the candidates themselves coming to places like here in clark county, and this is not a place where people don't know what's going on with the indictment. when you ask people if they're informed, this eff been watching the news, you don't get a blank stare, you don't have to explain it, it is because it has been in the news so much here. this is one of those fake elector states listed in the indictment. so it has been in local news, on the front page of the newspaper, not in the back of the nation and world section. beyond that, you would think you're speaking to suburban voters who are deciding whether or not they should go blue, but now i'm speaking to a lot of trump supporters who are wondering what to do next. i'll give you two examples we'll show in a second. one is a person who is dug in and the more trump gets in trouble, the more indictments that pile up, the more he's going to vote for donald trump. the second one is somebody that saw what happened on january 6th, and saw what happened yesterday, and is now has a very different opinion on what to do.

listen to this. >> that january 6th situation, it was -- it was a tipping point for me. he can be bought and he can be sold. >> business as usual. it is all a scam. >> reporter: what makes you say that? >> nothing to it. they're out to get him. they're going to do everything they can to destroy him. ain't going to work. >> reporter: and, of course, you have people digging their heels in, emboldened by the trump news, people that support donald trump. also many more still reacting and thinking that maybe they're going to do something different at the polls and just a few months here. >> steve patterson for us, thank you. appreciate it. want to bring in democratic strategist cornell belcher and republican strategist and former communications director at the republican national committee doug hai. welcome to you both. we heard some of the sound steve played for us, i don't think it is necessarily surprising to hear that, especially the one individual man who said it is all a scam. i think we expect that from 30%

of the electorate who will undoubtedly vote for donald trump no matter what happens. cornell, talk about the swing voter. the voters that have tired of the former president's drama, what he's bringing to the table, three indictments in, who knows what else is in the pipeline, but haven't yet committed to voting in favor of president biden. how does the democratic party capture that voter? >> well, thanks for the question. well, it is a couple of ways. one is, you know, americans don't get excited about just good clean ethical government. it doesn't just sell itself. however, they will always choose it. it is like the paper towels, you don't get excited about buying them. you always buy them because you need them. and i think that's what the case is right now. i think the contrast here grows clearer and clearer every day. do you want good, clean, straight ahead ethical government or do you want to punch the country into chaos and

corruption? and more division? i think broadly speaking that is the contrast here because in the end it is going to be -- it is going to be a contrast. and when you look at the polling data and where independent voters are, they're not crazy about either of the parties, but donald trump has considerably higher favorables and intensely higher favorables than biden right now but biden must make his case and make the contrast. i think it is a pretty sharp contrast between good government taking care of the issues or personal vendetta, corruption, and more division. >> doug, higher favorables, but folks are doubling down on him amidst all the indictments. i want to read some of the polling we're getting in here to nbc as well from june. finding that when asked whether the troubles were sufficient cause for gop primary voters to back another candidate for the presidential nomination or to rally around trump, this was from june, republican voters

responded 64 to 31 in favor of rallying around the former president of the united states. what does that say to you? >> it says two things. one, as we know donald trump has a firm grip by and large on the republican party. but that doesn't represent the entire party. it also tells me that what we see is a lot of the candidates who are in theory running against donald trump, in practice aren't running against donald trump. we saw a lot of statements that came out yesterday that essentially echoed donald trump's comments that he made yesterday about the indictments and things like shams and so forth. cornell would agree with me that in a campaign for president, senate, mayor, house, governor, whatever it may be, if your opponent in a primary is indicted, you typically use that against them to put it mildly. to see the people running against donald trump right now not use that, in fact, but reesing him is pretty unheard of. >> i got to say, it is atypical of the republican party in

general. if the shoe were on the other foot, right, you think back to the karl rove days, he was seen as a political mastermind of sorts, right, if the shoe were on the other foot and this was a former democratic president of the united states who had been indicted three times, possibly one more in the pipeline as well, you know republicans would be going in hard on this. they're handing this thing on a silver platter to the democratic party and also to other folks that are running against the former president of the united states in this primary race and it seems as if no one has been able to legitimately capitalize on this moment, cornell. >> well, yeah. it is tough, right, because at the same time you don't want to get in the way of your opponent when they're drying himself. don't take desantis or scott as serious candidates now. because they are, in fact, taking on trump's talking points

and they're never going to get in front of trump with a 30-point lead if they keep supporting him. they're never going to get in front of him. i don't take them as serious candidates. but to your point, it is -- democrats have a tough task here because, one, rule number one is if your opponent is destroying themselves and going up in flames, you stay out of the way of that. i think largely from the president and him campaign, you've seen him pull back and stay out of the way. and also by the way, he's still president so he can't say too much about what the justice department is doing because of his position as president. but, look, you know, independent voters, swing voters see what is happening and i don't think there is anything the president or the vice president should say or get involved in this process while in fact the justice system is working to hold him accountable. and in the end, i do think they have, i think the contrast here

is pretty clear, as clear as we have seen in a lot of presidential elections is do you want to put someone in the white house who has been, you know, 58, 78 felony charges and talked about overthrowing the government and, by the way, talked about doing even more, or do we want ethical boring government that is going to work for you and stay out of way? i think it is a strong contrast. >> still mind blowing we're having this conversation. cornell belcher, thank you, doug hai, thank you as well. up next, everybody, an update from capitol hill after police evacuated a senate office building. what officials are now saying. we'll be right back. ng what officials are now saying. we'll be right back. subway refreshed everything. and now, they're slicing their meats fresh. that's why the new titan turkey is proffered by pros like me. and by pros who can actually dunk, like me. and if we proffer it we know you'll proffer it too. i can dunk if i want to. we always had questions. who do we belong to? who are our ancestors? i know we have them. when i found that immigration record on ancestry®,

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ahhhh! [sniffs] what is — wow! baby: daddy. sinex. breathe. ahhhhhh! all right, back to capitol hill, everybody where metropolitan police back to cap the russell building evacuation was in response to a call about an active shooter. no injuries though and no shooter have, in fact, been located. want to bring in a congressional reporter. what are you hearing? >> reporter: this all started about an hour and a half ago when staff were instructed to evacuate out of the russell senate office building. you can see that just over my right shoulder, that building there. staff are still outside. they're still being instructed to shelter in place if they weren't able to evacuate. across the street is a park where you can see dozens of staffers sitting waiting for the all clear as capitol police are still investigating, are still

searching, i'm told, the buildings. you said it right there, metropolitan police are saying this was some sort of, quote, bad call they received from an individual who was calling 911. they later called u.s. capitol police, metro pd, to report this call to them. you could see the security posture that followed soon after. i should also note there are no current reports that anything was located but you could see the precautions they're taking here, especially for a capitol, for a police department that has had to battle so many of these incidents unfortunately that turned out to be real and fake that now they take all of this extremely seriously, especially on the heels of the former president's arraignment tomorrow in court. so they definitely have their eyes peeled for any security situation. more than an hour into this we don't have many answers. in the next five or ten minutes or so we are prepared to hear from the capitol police chief who will hopefully explain what happened and give us a better

understanding of everything that went down. >> thank you so much. appreciate it. coming up next, ali velshi joining me with his take aways from the indictment and why we should all read it in its entirety. we'll be right back. neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. switch now and they'll give you nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv, on them. (hero fan) this plan is amazing! (josh allen) another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. (fan #1) that was josh allen. (fan #2) mmhm. (vo) for a limited time get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy s23. only on verizon.

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assistance here in the district of columbia and i encourage everyone to read it in its entirety. requesting it in june. read the indictment. he says the former president's scheme to overturn the 2020 election is fueled by lies and all laid out in the 45 pages of this indictment. joining me to talk more about this, host of velshi on msnbc

who read this indictment yesterday evening from the podcast here on msnbc. you did it the first time as well. i had no idea the first time we did it, we did it as a service, didn't realize how many people took to it because it's a legal document. it's 45 pages. it takes an hour and a half to read. by reading it, people are getting in the car, listening to it. it changes your view if you actually read the details. this is not from everybody who hears all of the discussion how it's a political document, whatever the case is. when you read it, read the details of the narratives, text messages, contemporaneous notes that mike pence took and you see it all in one place. >> it's a speaking indictment. it lays out the case so clearly. >> yes. >> like in these 45 pages. i think what's more understanding to me, we know after the congressional investigation to january 6th as well, they had 845 pages, right?

>> yes. >> of evidence that they produced after that investigation so what more, right, does jack smith have? >> it's telling of the story. the one distinction, you were there as i was in washington on january 6 ofth having heard the impeachment, then the january 6th stuff, what you have here is as it relates to january 6th, the entire other side of the conversation, right? we saw what was happening on one side of pennsylvania ave.. you're now hearing all the details in this indictment about who was talking to whom. who was texting whom. >> right. >> there are a few omissions, people's texts that are not referenced in here which makes it interesting. mark meadows you don't hear about. ivanka trump. jared kushner you don't hear about. one wonders what their role is. everybody else, the six co-conspirators, unindicted, who are named in here, lots of detail about who spoke to whom, who called whom and who said

what to whom and what you come away with is this was a conspiracy. this wasn't a clown car of people. it looked like a clown car in the beginning with the four seasons landscaping, rudy giuliani speeches. >> the war run meeting? >> yes. >> you pointed out something, we have 45 seconds left here but you say specifically how you mentioned this one point that really stood out to you in this indictment. what was? >> yeah. on january 3rd the co con spiritor 4 spoke to the deputy white house counsel told co-conspiritor 4 there had not been outcome determinative fraud in the election. if the defendant remained in office, being donald trump, there would be, quote, riots in every part of the united states. co-conspiritor four, well, that's why there's an insurrection. >> unbelievable. jeffrey clark. >> who actually said yes by the way. he told donald trump he would accept that appointment as acting attorney general because he's the only one in the

department of justice who would do donald trump's bidding. >> ali velshi, as always, a pleasure. >> good to see you. >> be sure to scan the qr code to hear ali read this second federal indictment against donald trump. it is something you must read. i'll see you from outside the courthouse. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. nice to see you. it's 4:00 in new york. if you listened very, very carefully you can actually hear it. clawing and scratching of an increasingly desperate figure whose political strength is admittedly undiminished, who has always, always, always possessed a primal fear of criminal exposure. today that man stands