thursday morning. an important "morning joe" starts right now. do you think he knew that he lost the election? >> do i personally believe that? yeah, at first i wasn't sure, but i have come to believe that he knew well he had lost the election. and, now, what i think is important is, the government has assumed the burden of proving that. the government in their indictment takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he had lost the election and the election wasn't stolen through fraud. they're going to have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. >> which is a high bar, of course. >> it's a high bar. now, that leads me to believe we're only seeing a tip of the iceberg on this. >> you think jack smith has more? >> oh, yes, i would believe he has a lot more, and that's one of the things that impressed me about the indictment. it was very spare. there were a lot of things he could have said in there, and there's more to come.

i think they have more evidence as to president trump's state of mind. >> donald trump's former attorney general with an ominous prediction for the former president in the 2020 election case. it comes as trump faces arraignment today in federal court in washington. we'll get a live report from washington, d.c., and legal analyst on what we can expect from today's hearing. meanwhile, former vice president mike pence just gave his most direct criticism of his former boss. we'll play those comments for you. also ahead, new reporting on a private meeting between president biden and former president obama over concerns about the 2024 election. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 3rd. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire.

senior attorney and fbi official, chuck rosenberg. reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany. and pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," you between robinson. >> willie, i think we all expected to hear the best that the trump defense team had, the best the trump apologists in the media had and, man, if that was the best they got, donald trump is in really big trouble. first of all, as was said, it's just the tip of the iceberg. there's more coming. it was an indictment just to get things moving. we saw savannah guthrie. we'll be playing the clip in a second. savannah guthrie interviewed trump's lawyer. they're still talking about the first amendment, where on the very face of the jack smith indictment, jack smith said, "you have the first amendment right to say what you want to

say. you have the first amendment right to lie. you do not have, though, a first amendment right to commit a conspiracy to overthrow the federal government of the united states." i mean, it just makes absolutely no sense. they're either talking about the first amendment or, on another news channel, people were talking about a two-tiered justice system, talking about hunter biden's hubcap rolling off his '57 impala, something like that. >> that was bad. >> we heard it in the studio, a '67 impala, the hubcaps, they bounce the wrong way, they can take out an eye. they were talking about the two-tiered system. i may have said it harshly yesterday when i said, "we don't care if hunter biden goes to jail." i didn't mean it that way. what i meant was, if he's done something, if he is found guilty, he goes to jail.

hold on. >> yeah. >> oh, wait, that's what we do in america. >> yeah. >> but for some reason, they can't say, "if donald trump has done something, if he's guilty, he should go to jail." so they're still -- this is what -- again, we talked about it yesterday. it is amazing to me that these people, kevin mccarthy and people on another cable news station, spent from election day 2020 to january 6th undermining confidence in america's voting system, in american democracy. it's cost $1 billion. it'll probably cost 'em closer to $2 billion. but they did that, and they haven't learned their lesson. now, now, donald trump -- it's like they're willing to totally screw america, to trash america

for this guy. i don't want to see his face. take him down. i don't want to see his face. take him down. i don't want to see his face. now, they're willing to trash america. they've already trashed democracy for that guy. if you listen to him yesterday, if you listened to republicans in the house, if you listened to people on the other news channels, they're literally willing to trash america's judiciary, our judicial branch, the very branch in madisonian democracy that separates us from other countries the most, if you follow history. it's always the great leveller. they're willing to trash that now, willie, just because donald trump got caught stealing nuclear secrets, because he got caught stealing secret war plans, because he got caught stealing all of these other

documents and burroburrowed they in his beach club in florida. now, they've got -- i don't know if i told you this -- we've got a 45-page indictment, and everybody in here that's testifying against donald trump, they're all trumpers. there are no democrats here. >> citizens. >> they're citizens. >> servants. >> public servants who were serving donald trump. people that said, "we really wanted him to win badly, but not so badly that we were willing to destroy the united states constitution and american democracy in the process." as we said yesterday, every one of these people that testified were testifying against their own self-interest, because if donald trump had been in the white house four more years, they would have gotten more powerful, ultimately more richer and more well-connected in washington and the world. there you go. networks and little members of

congress in the republican party willing to trash american democracy and now the judicial system in the name of donald trump. >> how many off-ramps, joe, how many times have they been given the chance, big chances, like he took nuclear secrets to mar-a-lago and waves them around at bedminster. no, it was a bookkeeping issue. okay. how about a coup against the government detailed in the 45-page indictment? what about hunter biden? that is the political defense, what you're hearing on capitol hill from republicans. "well, yes, we heard about the indictment, but did you hear about what hunter biden did? did you hear about the new witness," attempting to draw a line. yesterday morning, the defense is the first amendment. above the full "new york times," "first amendment is likely linchpin of trump defense." that's where they're going, joe. as we talked about at length yesterday, and you reminded us,

in paragraph 3, i think it is, maybe 4, special counsel jack smith takes that away from them by conceding, "yes, you had the right to say these things, including lies. you can say whatever you want. what you can't do is conduct a criminal conspiracy, and speech is often part of the criminal conspiracy." >> willie, let me read it quickly, and thank you, as you know, i'm a dumb country lawyer. i wave things around. i don't know exactly where they are. thank you for telling me it is paragraph 3, for bird dogging it for me. sorry. just -- i regress at times. paragraph 3, "the defendant had a right to speak about the election, to claim falsely there had been fraud during the election and he'd won. he was also entitled to formally challenge the results of the election through lawful and appropriate means, by seeking recounts, et cetera. indeed, in many cases, the defendant did pursue the methods

contesting the election results. his efforts to change the recounts, audits, though, were uniformly unsuccessful." he had a right, like every american, to speak publicly about the election and even claim falsely, willie, there had been election fraud. he has the right if he wants to do it. he has that right. jack smith gets rid of that, as you say, in the third paragraph. these, these bumbling, these bumbling lawyers are going, "first amendment, first amendment." judge and the jury is going to look at it and say, "well, wait, jack smith talks about that in the third paragraph." i don't know. i guess they just have absolutely nothing to defend him on. >> yeah. attorney general barr, former attorney general barr, as we played, waived that defense, saying it is nonsense, the first amendment. but that's what they're going

with, chuck rosenberg. i'm curious what you've made in the last 24 hours of the defense we've seen from trump's team so far, whether it's the first amendment. we haven't heard much, though we heard from some politicians about the good faith argument, that he actually believed the election was stolen and he was merely pursuing some of the things he heard. unfortunately for him, there's 45 pages of evidence saying, "yes, his aides and cabinet members told him he'd lost and, in fact, these were lies," so that disrupts that, as well. what do you make of the first amendment grounds here? >> i'm glad you asked me that, willie. there is a technical legal word for it, and mr. barr used it, absolute nonsense. think of it this way. speech designed to commit a crime, speech designed to commit a fraud is not first amendment protected speech. if i lie on my tax return, that is speech, but it is not protected by the first amendment. willie, if you and i are running a ponzi scheme, and we solicit

money from joe and mika and tell them we're going to invest it in our investment fund and, instead, we buy a boat, an island and minor league baseball team, that is not first amendment protected speech. that's a crime. instructing a witness to destroy documents is speech, but it's not protected by the first amendment. so i completely agree with mr. barr on this point. that defense that the first amendment precludes prosecution of mr. trump garbage. it may work in the political arena, but it will not work in court. period, the end. >> let's look at what's going to happen in court today. former president donald trump will be criminally charged today in washington, d.c., for allegedly trying to disrupt the same government he once swore to protect. at 4:00 this afternoon, trump will be arraigned in d.c.

federal court on four felony charges stemming from his alleged efforts to block the peaceful transition of power following his 2020 election loss. the charges are conspiracy to defraud the united states, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy against rights. members of the d.c. police department could be seen setting up security barriers outside the courthouse last night ahead of the former president's arrival. >> gene robinson, we haven't had a chance to get your take since this came down. it's a remarkable document, 45 pages. the president of the united states, the former president of the united states once again marching into a courthouse to be indicted. >> yeah. we get used to this because this is the third arraignment we will

have seen of donald trump. nonetheless, this is different. this is incredibly a president of the united states who attempted to cling to power, to stay in office, to fight despite having been defeated in a free and fair election. he refused to peacefully transfer power to his successor. that has never happened in our history. and it is historic that it is now being addressed with this indictment. so this is a -- we're in a different realm now. you know, i certainly agree with you and chuck. i'm not even a country lawyer but, obviously, the first amendment defense is a dog that won't hunt. i think the more likely route that the trump laye lawyers areg

to try to go is advice of counsel. "well, he really believed it. he was listening to the noted constitutional scholar, john eastman, and he was just listening to his lawyers." now, the weakness in that, of course, is that the attorney general of the united states and the white house counsel, deputy white house counsel were all telling him, "stop, this is ridiculous. you've got to stop this stuff. this is nonsense." >> right. >> and the other reason is that the lawyers he was listening to are all unindicted co-conspirators. so, you know, there is that pesky exception to attorney/client privilege, and i also think it'd pertain here. these were co-conspirators if we're not lawyers giving disinterested advice. so i don't know where he goes with this, except the political

case, what about hunter biden? >> well, yeah, he's got the political case. what about that hubcap that fell off hunter biden's '67 impala, acting as if the media is covering for hunter biden. whatever will be will be. we're on doris day's side on this one. whatever will be will be with hunter biden. there's just no equivalency, political equivalency, moral equivalency to that. whatever it ends up being, a former president of the united states trying to overflow the federal government. this is like benedict arnold's cousin, like, stealing an apple from, you know, whatever. the attempt to -- okay, that wasn't the best example. >> trying to distract. >> yeah. >> i'll be working on that one. benedict arnold's nephew

stealing a british -- >> joe, if you've been watching fox all day, they never read the indictment. they never read the counts. they kind of hem and haw around it and never read the indictment. >> yeah. >> they never talk about these charges and talk about the fact that you don't bring an indictment without proof and talk about many of these things we saw play out in front of our eyes, done by donald trump. >> right. >> many of these things we saw corroborated during the january 6th hearings. >> yeah. >> you never hear that -- >> you know, willie. >> -- because it's too much fact for them. >> you know, willie, how she shows that? >> well. >> because she keeps it on that station all day. >> you have to wonder why trump supporters don't believe this is real. >> just to become reactive. i say, "please don't do that. please, no. let's watch" --

>> you can't be blind to what's happening. >> let's watch the all access pottery. she won't listen to me. let's get to chuck. >> no, i -- >> i know what you're saying. i have respect for what you're doing there. >> it is disinformation. >> i can't do it myself. >> they didn't learn. >> chuck, let's touch on the advice of counsel that gene robinson brought up. i would think part of the problem is, it is not exactly forum shopping, but trump had his white house counsel around him. he had lawyers all around inside the white house. he had advisers. they all told him no. he went out and basically went forum shopping to find the craziest conspiracy theories he could find, especially after his own lawyers said, "mr. president, you got nothing here. january 20th, 2021 is going to be your last day." he goes out and finds people like rudy giuliani whose legal theories trump himself calls

crazy. will advice of counsel carry any water in this court as a possible defense? >> i'm glad you asked me that. first thing, joe, there is a defense known as advice of counsel. you see it from time to time. it's a real thing. so i think the more important question is, would it pertain here? there are two basic elements to it. to have an advice of counsel defense, let's say you, joe, a wonderful country lawyer, are my attorney, and i want to rely on you for advice you've given me to help prove i had no intent to commit the crime i'm charmed with. there are two requirements. one, i'm completely candid with you, my lawyer, about all the facts of the case, and the other, element number two, is that i act in good faith upon your advice. you know, past is prolong, mr. trump has had trouble with both of those elements, candor and good faith. so it is a real defense. it may be available to him here to try and trot out in a court

of law, but he would have to establish, again, that he was completely candid with his counsel, as i was with you, and that he acted in good faith upon the advice of counsel. i think those are stumbling blocks for mr. trump in any setting, certainly in a court of law. >> let's take a look at day ahead. joining us now, nbc news justice reporter ryan riley, outside the courthouse in washington, a matter of blocks away from the united states capitol that was attacked on january 6th, 2021. ryan, good morning. we know former president trump is waking up in bedminster, new jersey. he'll fly down to reagan national later this afternoon. what do you expect to see around the courthouse today around 4:00? >> a lot of secrecy. i think they're going to bring him in through the garage, the elevators. the courtroom is in the annex of the building behind me. it was the newer facility built around 2005. what it allows them to do

potentially is bring donald trump in. it's the same way they brought a lot of grand jurors in, through the garage, through the back elevators, and potentially bring them right into the courtroom. from what we understand, there will be about 11 seats available to the media, but that's going to be on a lottery system. despite all our producers' hard work overnight standing in line here, we're not guaranteed to get a spot inside the courthouse. there's going to be overflow and a media room, so we'll be at least looking at this on a closed circuit television, being able to see what's happening inside the courtroom. it probably should be a very short hearing. i expect, you know, going forward in this case, we're probably going to see some change of venue motions. those have all failed in january 6th cases before. the justice department had evidence to point to, that d.c. jurors are able to handle these cases appropriately. both the proud boy and the oath keepers case, there were

acquittals on certain charges for several counts, not the charges overall. there have been other acquittals in january 6th cases all together. they have some evidence that the voir dire process can work here, that jurors can swear their oath, can take the evidence on its face. despite, you know, maybe not being particularly fond of donald trump, can look at the facts and decide them fairly. you know, when chuck was talking about the first amendment grounds, it struck me that potentially one thing you'd expect if that's going to be the defense of trump here, they'd be calling for the charges against hunter biden in the gun case to be dropped. then hunter biden has a first amendment right to lie about being a drug addict on a gun form. that's just, you know -- i think chuck is right, that that is not something that is going to have much merit in this courtroom behind me, and especially, you know, given the judges who know a lot of the facts about these cases. yesterday, we saw another defendant who was charged, who

was actually a cardinals mascot who ran around the stadium in st. louis painted in red, and he was just arrested yesterday. this is someone who a lot of conspiracy theorists believe was an undercover officer but, note, the sleuths discovered him and he was arrested. donald trump is now one more florida man charged in connection with january 6th. >> the red bird? >> unofficial mascot. >> okay, good, that was disturbing to learn a minute ago. >> yeah. >> ryan, let me ask you about security there. obviously, a coordinated effort between the d.c. metro police, the federal agencies, secret service involved, as well, with the former president being there. there was anticipation around the arraignment in lower manhattan. new york city police said, don't try it here. it's not going to work. most people stayed away. what are they expecting there in terms of a crowd? >> reporter: you know, yesterday, we did see somewhat

of a crowd, as well as the day before. not massive. handleable. i think, you know, the bike racks are going to keep people away from the building hopefully. when i saw them last night, seeing them put them out, i was like, bike rack? on theme for january 6th. that's what was the first things breached at peace circle, just a couple blocks over here to my left, during the initial breach. it was not something that stood up. donald trump hasn't summoned anyone to come here. i certainly expect a lot of supporters to show up, but it is not this mass event. it was done on a quick timeframe, so it wasn't as though you could get necessarily a ton of people to show up. this is basically 48 hours from when we learned about the charges on tuesday. you know, we should see some supporters here, perhaps harassing reporters out here on the street and perhaps trying to get their moment on camera, but, you know, obviously, d.c. is now in a posture where they can react to this pretty quickly and

have a decent security situation set up here. >> let's hope it is a peaceful day. president of the united states, the former president of the united states will be arraigned today at 4:00 eastern time in that courthouse behind you. justice reporter ryan riley, thanks so much. john, he mentioned potential change of venue, highly unlikely. donald trump yesterday suggesting the state of west virginia would be an appropriate place for this trial. coincidentally, he won by 40 points there in both his elections. >> this was trump's take on social media. he says, "let's move it to an impartial venue, such as the, quote, politically unbiased, nearby state of west virginia." a, west virginia had nothing to do with january 6th. b, he won it by 1,000 points in 2016 and 2020. no ulterior motive there, i'm sure. i was talking to someone yesterday concerned about security around it, and makes the point that donald trump's most violent supporter, those likely to cause trouble, well,

they're already in jail nor january 6th, so hopefully that reduces some there. journalism students were paid to stand in line to try to get seats, but don't know if that'll happen. jackie, you've been covering this closely. trump has a new legal team in place for this, these proceedings. making the media rounds. tell us what we know of them. beyond, perhaps, the first amendment considerations, what other possible defenses might we hear from them today? we should finally note, previous indictments, arraignments, donald trump addressed the media afterwards. they haven't said whether he will today or not. >> there are a lot of tbds right now, john. on our part, the media outlets are well-oiled machines when it comes to operating around donald trump's indictments, as this is the third one. we are anticipating that trump is going to potentially have a press avail or might be doing a last-minute rally in the area.

but a lot of that is up in the air. as we've seen, there is a lot of bravado, public statements, you know, claiming that trump is welcoming these indictments. people and allies on his campaign arguing that this is only good for his polling numbers. at the end of the day, when trump has appeared in the courthouse before the judge to enter his plea deal, he's appeared dour and exfreedom extremely unhappy to be there. afterwards, he's made the rounds, whether it be cafes in miami or parading around new york city in his motorcade. he has a new legal team with a little less experience than the media has in attending these arraignments. he has todd blanche, who has been with him since alvin bragg dropped charges related to the porn star and hush moneymy dani.

he has a well-respected and seasoned lawyer helming the legal effort. there is christopher kise, the lawyer trump brought in last year who was sidelined on the mar-a-lago case, now more involved with that case. we haven't seen much of him with regards to the january 6th investigation. then there is john lauro, the tv lawyer we've seen in the past few days, who also is someone who is well respected and has experience with this. as chuck and a few people noted, has been making some interesting, behind the eight ball arguments about what trump's legal defense is going to be, primarily focus ong the issue of free speech when jack smith's charges have avoided some of that issue by -- i talked to a number of lawmakers, january 6th committee members yesterday, who actually commended smith with dropping the insurrection charge and, instead, going with that final

charge of conspiring against people's right to have their votes counted, because it does help prosecutors avoid this argument over free speech and, instead, gives juries a little bit of an insurance card to judge trump on his conduct as opposed to his opinions or beliefs. >> all right. jackie. ahead on "morning joe," much more fallout from donald trump's latest indictment, and the reaction from some who were inside the administration, like the former chief of staff for mike pence. plus, new developments in the special counsel's other investigation into trump. >> i still can't believe mike pence's chief of staff had to call the secret service -- i'm glad they did -- on january 5th after trump basically threatened him. >> it was pretty ugly? >> they had -- i'm so glad for mike pence and his family, that the chief of staff was smart

enough to call the secret service to say, "hey, donald trump is putting our lives in danger." he ready. >> there was crazy stuff that went down. food against the wall in the white house. i mean, this is just -- it is an incredible time in history. plus, new developments in the special counsel's other investigation into trump. why jack smith's team is citing potential conflicts of interest in the classified documents case. also ahead, what we're learning about a private talk between president biden and former president obama concerning the 2024 election. >> sounded like an important talk to have. >> yeah. >> you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. five... -it's happening, isn't it? four...

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33 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." we're following new developments this morning in the special counsel's other case against former president donald trump. >> now, is this the one where he tried to launch an insurrection to overthrow the united states. >> no. >> is this where he stole government secrets and nuclear -- >> yes. it's not the hush money payment with a porn star which nobody denies, not even donald trump. >> not when he was accused of rape. >> it was sexual abuse, he was held liable. >> but the judge that said when they were making motions, actually, the common usage, how the u.s. army uses the term rape, what is defined in the dictionaries, you committed rape.

that's not this case. >> there is still another lawsuit because he continues to defame this woman with wild abandon. >> this isn't the rape case. >> she's suing him again. it's not the rape case. >> not where he stole the nuclear secrets? >> it's not that one either. >> okay. but -- >> no, it is that one. there are so many. >> so it's not the case that he tried to overthrow the federal government, the election? >> not that one. >> it's the rape case. >> jack smith -- >> no, i'm sorry. it's the case where he tried to steal nuclear -- not tried. he stole nuclearlclear jet s he stole nuclearecrets and lied about it. >> yes. >> i got it. >> jack smith asked judge aileen cannon to schedule a trial for potential conflicts of interest in the documents case, including military secrets at his club in florida. the issue stemmed from defense lawyer stanley woodward's representation of walt nauta and other witnesses in the case. according to a court filing

yesterday, woodward's current and past clients include three people who could be called to testify against nauta. nauta is charged with conspiring to obstruct the government's efforts to reclaim classified documents. woodward, at one point, represented yuscil taveras, anonymously named, who was asked to delete security footage at mar-a-lago. taveras is not named in the indictment, and there are reports he may have cooperated with the doj after receiving a target letter and getting new representation. despite this, woodward's ongoing representation of nauta could still be an issue. >> chuck -- >> that, itself, is a massive case. >> chuck, we've seen judges before bring up concerning about overlapping interinterests.

here, you're talking about the possible freedom or the incarceration of several men here. i would expect a judge to step in and say, "counsel a, you cannot represent these two or three people whose interests are diametrically opposed in their dealings with the government." do you expect that's what we're going to see? >> i do, joe. you're exactly right. look, this is relatively simple. if an attorney represents, let's make it easy here, two people, and one of them is a witness at trial, and one is a defendant at trial, then that attorney has information because he represented both of them that he could use to the advantage of one and the disadvantage of the other. that's a conflict. it's not that complex. the government was absolutely right to raise the issue with the court. the court has to hold a hearing

on this. now, of course, if the government succeeds in getting one of the lawyers kicked off the case, that slows things down a little bit. so be it. it is more important to protect the rights of all the individuals involved in the case and the record on appeal than it is to go faster than you ought to go. i'd like to see all these cases tried before the election. that may not happen. moving to conflict out an attorney will inevitably slow the case down or could slow the case down. as a lawyer, you always have a duty of confidentiality and loyalty to all of your clients forever. that doesn't end when one of them is charged and the other one becomes a witness. it lasts forever. so you cannot use, as a lawyer, confidential information you got from one person to help another. that's the conflict. it seems relatively straightforward to me. the government is right to ask for a hearing. i imagine the judge is going to very seriously consider asking mr. nauta to find another

lawyer. >> i can't imagine that they wouldn't. again, their interests moving forward will be diametrically opposed. here is bill barr talking about the wreckage donald trump left in his wake regarding some of the co-defendants. >> these two individuals, nauta and the -- >> carlos. >> and carlos are dragged into this thing, their lived turned upside down by trump to pursue, you know, this caper of his. he leaves in his wake ruined lives like this, the people who went up to capitol hill, these individuals, many of the people who served him in government that got sucked into things. he just leaves all this carnage in his wake. >> do you think he cares about that? >> no, he doesn't care about that. loyalty is a one-way street for him. >> loyalty is a one-way street. >> wow. >> we all know that, gene

robinson. >> that is carnage. >> to build out a little on this, though, it is ridiculous, actually, that walt nauta and the other criminal defendant have the same attorney as donald trump. i mean, it's ridiculous because, at some point -- and this would be true in any case -- at some point, if you're working, you know, at the direction of a principal, and they ask you to do something illegal for them, your interest diverges sharply with the principal the second everybody gets arrested, because you're able to strike a separate deal with the state or with the feds, whatever it is. this is a case -- i just can't imagine the judge, i can't imagine anybody allowing these two co-defendants to be tied to donald trump with a lawyer who will not be giving them advice that is in their best interest. their best interest on how to

stay out of jail. >> exactly. it seems obvious to me that nauta needs to find another lawyer, that this lawyer does have this conflict. woodward. that seems to be the end of that. you know, this is something i've rarely said, but bill barr makes such an excellent point there. because look at the wreckage. look at the wreckage from the -- and the trump indictments, just the ones we have so far, right, the first one, the stormy daniels payment. michael cohen, trump's lawyer, went to jail because of that caper. look at the documents case. you've got nauta and, you know, just in the hot seat potentially going to jail again. he's trying to follow donald trump's orders. in this case, in the january 6th

case, you've had, what, more than 1,000 people, i think, face justice. many go to jail, some for seditious conspiracy, after donald trump fired them up and sent them off to sack the capitol, essentially. it is amazing, and it would be a travesty for all these other people to suffer the consequences of donald trump's selfish, egotistical, egomaniacal behavior, and for trump himself not to face consequences. >> jackie -- >> it is right he is facing consequences. >> jackie alemany, what will you be watching and looking for today as we watch this historic moment happen before our eyes? i don't know if we'll actually see donald trump, but there will be reporters in the room. the former president, his third

arraignment, federal arraignment before a judge who has sent january 6th rioters to jail. >> yeah, mika. i mean, it is going to be really symbolic and historic to watch donald trump walk up those same stairs in the d.c. district court that over 1,000 other insurrectionists who were simply following trump's lead and direction to storm the capitol on january 6th, who have been charged and, in some cases, sen sentenced in the behest of trump on january 6th and leading up to january 6th. i'm going to be watching the dynamics between trump and the obama-appointed judge who was assigned to the case, who has handed out some of the harshest sentences to january 6th insur insurrectionists. i want to turn to the woodward situation again, as well. it raises this broader situation of just how remarkable all of these cases are.

there are co-conspirators, witnesses, people who might have to be called to these court cases to testify against donald trump, who are all still working for the former president or financially tied to him in some way. yuscil taveras, he was being represented by stanley woodward, one of seven people represented by woodward, who only gave incriminating evidence and told truth once he switched lawyers. the thing that jack smith was arguing yesterday is how is woodward going to cross-examine his former client in a court of law, especially as the former client is not waiving his rights to confidentialitconfidentialit. it raises the broader question of some of these people we're going to be seeing accompanying trump today to the courthouse and afterwards, especially in the case of potential press avail, these are people who were mentioned in the indictment, either in some veiled term as a co-conspirators, people like boris epstein, who continues to

work for former president trump, and people like jason miller, who continues to be a senior adviser. susie wilds, a top person on the trump campaign. all people who have come before jack smith and coordinated in some form or another, either with the classified documents case or, now, the january 6th case. >> wow. >> willie, first of all, just susie wiles, considered one of, in republican circles, one of the most important, powerful, smart campaign minds in the state of florida. she's helped run donald trump's campaign. apparently, based on reports, she's the one he showed, you know, these maps of war plans to. >> right. >> she's thrown right into the middle of that stuff. secondly, i just want to say, maybe it's a generational thing, but, you know, when bill barr

calls a conspiracy to steal nuclear secrets a caper, a caper. >> well -- >> i would say stealing an apple pie from the top of a ledge is a caper. >> i think he's actually -- there's a little bit of a -- i think he is talking about trump's stupid think, honestly. kind of putting it in quotes. because he is so dumb. what he's done with the documents is so dumb. everything that he does, he does out in the open. you read these indictments, all of them, he's so dumb. he just knows how to play the media, and some people fall for it. >> it is funny -- well, not funny, it is tragic for donald trump, isn't it? he's been working "the new york post" and the daily news since 1975, 1976, and he really, at some point, never really figured out where the sharp line was

between, you know, page 6 columnist and jack smith. it's going to likely -- and i'm serious here. >> a little bit of a difference. >> it is going to likely cause him his freedom. he's been able to get away with him his entire life. for some reason, he never figured out, you know, you don't cross the feds. you don't do illegal things and expect to be able to b.s. your way out of an indictment and a charge that could send you to jail for life. >> you're right. he's operated with total impunity for all his adult life. in new york city in the early days. it's a game to him. everybody has to be loyal or disposed of. now, he's learning that this is not a game. jack smith is taking this thing very seriously, and our justice system takes his alleged crimes very seriously. on your point object susie wiles, when asked about what

would be said to the new lawyers, the former attorney general said, "well, you'll all become witnesses. you'll have to testify. he's going to commit another crime, do something else, and you're going to be accomplices. you're going to be in the room. you have to decide if it's worth it to you." >> wow. >> that's amazing. >> "the washington post"'s jackie alemany and former u.s. attorney chuck rosenberg, thank you, both, very much for coming on this morning. >> chuck, most definitely, not a simple country lawyer. >> listen to every word he says. >> i would not want to be -- >> sometimes it's chilling. >> -- a simple country lawyer across the table from him. look at him. >> no, i would not. >> seems so gentle. >> yeah. >> look at that. raise that eyebrow. legal killer, baby. >> well, we appreciate your insight, quite frankly. >> thank you, chuck. did you see the eyebrow? >> we're trying to get through this. coming up, a controversial downgrade of the united states credit rating, it has the markets in the red this morning. we'll explain what prompted the

move and tell you the reaction from one of america's top banking executives. also ahead, senator blumenthal joins us in studio. we'll talk about bipartisan legislation to protect children on social media. also, his reaction to trump's latest third indictment. "morning joe" is coming right back. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ trying vapes to quit smoking only pay for what you need. might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop.

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global stocks fell after the u.s. credit rating was downgraded from aaa to aa plus. fitch is one of the credit agencies that evaluates a company's ability to pay bills on time. the agency decided the

deteriorating political conditions, including the debt ceiling stand-off earlier in the year and the january 6th riot was reasons for the decision. when we said a ceo responded, i said, i hope it's jamie. >> it's jamie. >> he has no b.s. >> no, he doesn't. never did. >> here it is, yes, jpmorgan ceo jamie dimon correctly called the move ridiculous, saying the u.s. remains, quote, the most prosperous nation on the planet. the white house pushed back on the downgrade. let's bring in -- this is important, we have a president emeritus on the council of foreign relations, richard haass. >> he looks so eerudite. >> and a golf correspondent. >> well -- >> i have a complex mind, as fitzgerald said, richard, i can hold two competing thoughts in

my mind at the same time. aren't we all glad i can? number one, i think you'll agree with me, we talked about it before, national debt is a problem. it's over $30 trillion. that is an ongoing problem. we need a plan to bring it into control, a glide path, so to speak, that doesn't wreck the economy. at the same time, we have a $25 trillion economy. it keeps growing while china stagnates at $17 trillion. california has a larger economy than every other country than, like, three on the globe. texas, a bigger economy than russia. you look at our economy. it may not be the greatest it's ever been. it's better than just about every other economy on the globe. the question is, if you're downgrading us, i mean, are you downgrading everybody else on the planet? because there is no safer

investment on the planet right now than the united states of america. >> it was an odd time for fitch to do this, the rating service, simply because the news is pretty good about the u.s. economy, both absolutely and relative to others. but if you take a step back, i think they are on to something. as you said, joe, it's the massive accumulation of debt, but really what they focused in on was the politics of washington. it is consistent with the story of the week. which is, the dysfunctionality of american politics, we've come to the edge multiple times. lawmakers left town, nothing got dealt with. they're going to come back, and then what? there's no confidence, essentially, that the politics of washington will allow the united states to deal with these issues. there, fitch is on firmer ground, so i get what jamie dimon and larry summers are

being critical about. if you pull back the strategic take on whether or not our politics are up to it and we're not just another economy. the dollar's role is essential to the world. the american economy is a quarter of the world's economy. the question is, will our politics get in the way of our economics? that's a fair question. >> i mean, i think it's a fair question. gene, if you look at the recent past, you know the united states is going to take care of itself. i will say, and i said it on this show and everyone was like, "oh, my god, the debt ceiling, we're going to spiral into" -- i was like, "no, we're not." anybody who knows washington, i've been through this time and again as a member of congress, then somebody in the media, they always do the deal. i don't care what side is bitching and moaning, saying they're not going to join in. they always get the call from their top ceos, from their top contributors, from their top pacs, and the call goes

something like this, "you're not really going to let the united states government default on your debt, are you, mr. speaker?" whether that speaker is newt gingrich or kevin mccarthy, gene, it's not really a question. >> yeah. >> it's not a question. it's an order, which is, do your damn business so my business doesn't get wrecked. i mean, that's why, again, fitch going, "oh, they can't pay for their debt," it's ridiculous. it always gets resolved, and it always gets resolved, not because we close our eyes and hope it gets resolved, it always gets resolved because our $25 trillion economy and the people who run it demand it gets resolved. >> yeah, it always does. look, i don't know exactly what they're smoking over at fitch, but it's like they all of a

sudden realize there is political polarization in the united states and, you know, it's like, all shocked and horrified. it's been that way for a while. we've been to this brink of, you know, default many times now. yes, in the end, we always honor the full faith and credit of the united states. it would be better, i think, if we did away with the debt ceiling and did away with this ridiculous exercise. obviously, it makes people nervous, but to decide just out of the blue that, oh, gee, this is a problem, we have to downgrade, it seems ridiculous to me. i'm with jamie dimon, it doesn't actually mean anything. >> it doesn't mean anything. again, i can't tell you, just a famous clash song, "i'm so bored

with the usa." i'm so bored with these whiny debates about the debt ceilings, because they all get resolved. they have to get resolved. willie, on the january 6th stuff, yeah, scared the heck out of us. some of us were yelling the morning after on this show, shouting vulgarities. i can't remember who was. >> during. >> or during. it was a frightening time for us. but here we are, a couple years removed, and what have we seen? justice roll down like mighty waters. over 1,000 of those rioters arrested. over 500 of them already serving jail time. nobody got away with anything. yes, the reason why we're not going to see rioters this week is because the people most likely to riot are either arrested, in jail, or going, "yeah, i'm fine. i'm just going to go on 4chan in

my mom's basement and type out my complaints while eating cheetos." like, the system has held, and it's held pretty damn well. >> yeah, closely but surely. there is a direct line between january 6th, 2021, that horrifying day that we all watched and that many people experienced from inside the building, many members of congress, many of our colleagues in the media, and to today, now accountability. the president, the former president of the united states, the president that day who helped lead those people to the capitol, at 4:00 this afternoon, will be arraigned in d.c. federal court, not far at all from the scene of so many of those crimes on january 6th. >> wow. >> he'll be inside the d.c. federal court, charged on his actions related to the 2020 election loss. charges are conspiracy to

defraud the united states. conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding. conspiracy to interfere with an official proceeding and conspiracy related to rights. donald trump returns to answer for what he is alleged to have done, to cause the damage that day. >> it's actually become a familiar ritual, but it shouldn't be less stunning. the former president of the united states is going to be going to a courthouse. he is going to be processed by law enforcement. he is going to have to be taken into custody. he'll have to stand in front of a judge to enter a play. we expect it to be, of course, not guilty, then he'll be released and resume campaigning for the white house, richard. we don't foe if we'll hear publicly from trump today. after his other arraignments, there were campaign speeches. we don't know if he will this

time, but if nothing less, he'll be on truth social. this is a leader trying to cling to power, to deny the wishes of the voters. this is the kind of thing, for the foreign policy expert, we see in other countries. we've never seen it here. even if this case, some believe, might be difficult to prove, isn't it an important step for this democracy, that we're trying? >> it's an important step for the democracy that we've reached this point. we like to say we're a country of laws, not of men, but we're going to find out. we'll test it. right now, it looks like the law is prevailing, but we'll see what happens with the legal process. we'll see how the political calendar and the legal calendar plays out. we're 15 months away from the next presidential election. see what happens there. the rest of the world is looking at this. we're looking at this. it's uncharted. i think it's too soon to feel good in the sense about the

primacy of the law, the primacy of process and so forth. we'll see. this is as direct a threat, jonathan, as we've had on our history. let's not kid ourselves, this is as frontal an assault on the rule of law, on american democracy. donald trump is violating essentially what i would call the cardinal tenant of a democracy, which is that we all have the obligations to put the country before our party or our person. what he is doing, what he did and what he is doing is he continues to violate that cardinal obligation of a democracy. he's on trial. in a funny sort of way, we're on trial. there is a legal process here, but ultimately, there is a political process. the question is, what prevails? >> joe, let's put the calendar back up for a moment. that is an extraordinary calendar. you know, we've sort of become unnerved to everything and eme immersed in it. that's a man running for president of the united states. look at the next year. you have an arraignment today.

potential georgia, we'll call it likely georgia indictment coming later this month. maybe a debate. maybe he will, maybe he won't show up. go down the list. once you get to the caucuses and the primaries, he's going to be hopscotching between states where he is trying to win an election and to courtrooms up and down the east coast. >> yeah. i mean, it really is unbelievable. >> they're getting ready in georgia. they've got the barriers up. sheriff is speaking out. >> talking about he'll be treated like anybody else. going to get a mug shot. that's a georgia indictment possibly. >> serious. >> possible mug shot before the first gop presidential debate with several other indictments before him. it's really something. if you look at that, if you look at that schedule, if you look at that calendar, richard, you know, you have written a book and you have expressed concerns about how we've met the enemy and the enemy is ourselves. i would only say, though, again, you look at the 1,000 people

arrested for the january 6th riots, the 500 that are in jail now. you look at the fact that the most powerful guy in the country for 40 -- 4 years is now facing justice. that's confirmation here. it looks like, for now, no man is above the law. that sends a very clear message to our friends and enemies alike. >> it does. so far in that sense, so good. it's terrible we've reached this point, but it is impossible that the center has held, if you will, the political and -- you know, this legal system, joe, has held. it ain't over until it's over. we'll see how it plays out. getting to something jonathan was referring to, we're used to seeing this thing in other country, the illiberalism. the idea that, basically, what donald trump represents here is a strongman.

in latin america, the phrase was -- that's what we're seeing here. the question is whether we will let him get away with it. we, the jury, and we, the voter. in a funny way, we know who he is. what we don't know is who we are. it's on us to find out. >> but we know who the majority of us are. >> but he has a lot of powerful supporters and a lot of his supporters have powerful platforms. they're still out there and doing what they're doing, even today. >> come on, let's face it, he's got one powerful platform that has generated so much of this reality that we now live in. you look at recent polls. fox viewers don't believe he did anything wrong because they're plugged into it and see it every day. we will let other people pass their judgments on whether that's a good thing for western democracy. >> they want him to show up at the debate more than they want to cover the story. they have the debate, and they

want those ratings. that's donald trump's ploy on this entire country. a ploy for ratings. going to businesses and going to people who feel left out and appealing to them and getting their support. crowd size, ratings, that's his sweet spot. that's how he gets people under -- >> you left out the most important thing for him hessian -- he wants money. we were talking about the $250 million that he stole from people for the, quote, stop the steal effort. >> mm-hmm. >> i think jack smith has to circle back around. that's a jim and tammy faye bakker scheme. that's a steve bannon scheme on a large scale. i suspect we're going to be seeing more of that. richard is right, we seen this in venezuela with the strongmen. we've seen it now in former democracies like hungary, that's now an illiberal democracy. we're seeing it in poland.

in israel, it's depressing to see what benjamin netanyahu is doing to that democracy right now. we're seeing a battle for democracy and western values right now in the united states. we'll see how it plays out. richard haass, thank you so much. >> thank you, richard. ahead of trump's first court appearance today, his attorney is already offering a possible glimpse at what the former president's defense may be. john lauro is arguing that trump was simply exercising his first amendment rights by raising concerns about the 2020 election and was following the advice of his lawyers when he falsely claimed mike pence had the power to block the results of the election on january 6th. here's what lauro told nbc's savannah guthrie yesterday on "today" followed by reaction from trump's former attorney general, barr. >> this is the first time the

first amendment has been criminalized. it's the first time a sitting president is attacking a political opponent on first amendment grounds and making it criminal to state your position and to engage in political -- >> i have to give you a time-out on that one. >> we've never seen that before. >> well, the indictment specifically says that the president has a first amendment right to speech. >> yes. >> he even has a first amendment speech to lie. i says it right here. >> absolutely. >> this is criminalizing conduct, not speech. >> what president trump had was an actual opinion of counsel, that his request to vice president pence was completely lawful and completely constitutional. >> he also had many, many opinions of his own white house counsel that that was not legal. >> no, you're entitled to believe and trust advice of counsel. >> as the indictment says, you know, they're not attacking his first amendment right. he can say whatever he wants. he can even lie. he can even tell people that the election was stolen when he knew

better. but that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. all conspiracies involve speech. all fraud involves speech. so, you know, free speech doesn't give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy. >> is it a credible defense to say he was just listening to john eastman? >> i don't think that dog is going to hunt, as you say. first, as the people who had some knowledge of whether or not there was fraud, everyone was telling him the election was not stolen by fraud. as to the issue of what he could do legally at that point, he went through all the lawyer -- you know, he wouldn't listen to all the lawyers in the department, in various departments of the white house who had those responsibilities, or his campaign. he'd search for a lawyer who would give him the advice he wanted. i'm not even sure you would characterize what eastman said as advice.

i don't think the defense of advice of counsel is going to go forward. i think the president would have to get on the stand and subject himself to cross-examination in order to raise that. he'd also have to waive attorney/client privilege. >> what would happen if he got on the stand? >> i think, look, it'd not come out well for him. >> you think it would hurt him? >> oh, yes, yes. >> former attorney general bill barr on cnn last night. let's bring in msnbc contributor, our good friend mike barnicle. also, staff writer at "the new yorker," susan glasser. donny deutsch, "on brand with donny deutsch." and we have a live voice outside of the courthouse. jonathan lemire is still with us.

eugene robinson. i'd love for you to take on defenses we heard from john lauro, that this is a first amendment case. paragraph 3 of the 45 page indictment says, of course you can say whatever you want, you can even lie, what you can't do is use speech in a criminal conspiracy. >> willie, you can talk about stuff all day long. you can talk about perhaps committing crimes, but the minute you begin to act, if you enter a criminal agreement with another, and one of the co-conspirators, one of the members of that agreement takes one step toward the commission of the crime, that step need not even be criminal, you've krit committed the crime of conspiracy to, in this case, obstruct an official proceeding, to deprive people of voting

rights, or to deceive the united states. we will not hear anything, i predict, from jack smith and his team of federal prosecutors. they are certainly -- they can do that. they have a first amendment right to do that. but the thing is, these arguments will not resonate, will not play in a court of law. the beauty of our system, willie, is that we will have a jury who will be in a position to decide whether what the defense attorneys are telling the american people versus what the evidence shows in a court of law should win the day. i have to say, after reading that 45-page indictment from jack smith, having practiced in this courthouse, having tried rico cases, this is a bit of a homecoming for me, i find it very hard to believe that anything the defense attorneys have said at least thus far publicly will win the day in a court of law.

>> it does seem pretty thin so far. we'll see if they change their defense. you've got a new piece, glen, up for msnbc.com, in which you write, "why this trump indictment is the most important." i think a lot of people share that view with you. could you explain why you think so? >> first and foremost, if charges were not brought for a president of the united states attempting to corruptly and, indeed, the allegation is now criminally retain the power of the presidency, if a president and his alleged co-conspirators were not held to account, then i suspect every four years after a presidential election on january 6th, we would see, right up the street there, a similar attack on the peaceful transfer of power. people would be able to say, even plausibly, "well, you know, the department of justice didn't bring charges against donald

trump and the others who orchestrated and incited the insurrection, so i guess it wasn't criminal." that's why, you know, today is such a big day for the rule of law. there has been no case with this kind of profile. there has been no case that is this consequential to the health, and i would say the vitality and even the viability of our democracy than this case. win, lose or draw, in my opinion, these charges had to be brought. >> willie geist, such brilliant insights there. one of the things i love about doing this show, willie, so much is, you know, the breadth of knowledge and the variety of guests that we have here. like, let's look at right now donny deutsch, for instance, and glenn, right? two separate lives right here. >> let me tell you something. if i'm involved -- hold on. if i'm involved in a complex

white collar crime case that's going to put me in jail for years, i'm going to the left side of the screen. if i want to know where to get the best pimm's cup, the old-fashioned in the hamptons, i'm going to donny deutsch right there. >> yeah. >> he'll help with that. two men, two gifted, talented men, living two completely separate lives. >> separate lives. >> glenn, may i say, congratulations, you win. [ laughter ] >> wow. >> thank you, joe. >> i just don't get it. i don't know, donny. is there a changing table behind you? >> what are you talking about? >> mike pence -- >> we're not letting donny defend himself? >> i don't want to hear it. >> wow. former vice president mike pence yesterday gave one of his strongest criticisms yet of donald trump, both while on the

campaign trail and in an interview with fox news. pence responded to claims from trump's attorney, that the former president only asked pence to, quote, simply pause the voting on january 6th. >> let's be clear on this point, it wasn't just that he asked for a pause. the president specifically asked me and his gaggle of crackpot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes, which would have resulted in the issue being turned over to the house of representatives and literally chaos would be ensued. president trump asked me to put him over the constitution, but i chose the constitution, and i always will. i really do believe that anyone who puts themselves over the constitution should never be president of the united states. and anyone who asks someone else to put themselves over the constitution should never be president of the united states again. >> after reading the indictment, did you learn anything new from

it? >> well, i did. i didn't know anything about the -- i didn't know anything about the efforts to secure fake electors in states around the country. i learned about that after the fact. >> susan, this seems to be the type of -- >> wow. >> -- truth telling that many have been asking of republicans, of republican candidates, of republican leaders. mike pence, post jack smith indictment, sounds like a new man. actually, somebody that's telling the truth about donald trump, the man he served loyally for four years. >> you know, joe, i was wondering, where has this former vice president been all this time? >> i know. >> he spent a couple years of hemming and hawing and not really owning it. he refused to testify before the house select committee investigating january 6th. it's very significant that he now have this testimony from mike pence.

it certainly leapt out at me in the indictment where i saw there was contemporaneous notes that he apparently turned over to jack smith's prosecution team as part of this investigation. i'm looking ahead to the debate later this month, the first debate of the republican presidential contest, and if pence is going to be up there on the stage, what an interesting question it's going to be to ask all of these republicans who have been dancing around it, so many of them have been afraid. they're running against donald trump, but they're afraid to criticize him. i wonder if they'll be asked, "well, would you have done what mike pence did on january 6th?" >> i mean, it's a great question. we say all the time, i mean, very few people had on their bingo card "mike pence, the former vice president of george h.w. bush, dan quell," as two

people who would step into the gap among republicans to do the right thing, to save this country on a critical day, a critical juncture. donny, now that we made fun about you, we can tell the truth about you. >> tap into your expertise. >> you're a legend when it comes to branding, advertising legend. i knew it. i learned early in politics. i was told early in politics, if you're going after the big guy or the big woman, if you're trying to win, it's all about contrast. you've got to contrast yourself with 'em. if you're just a warmed over version of the person who is at the head of the pack, you're going to lose. it's one of the things i never understood about the republicans being cowards in the face of donald trump. you know, this mike pence move may not work. it may not work, but we know the other way is not going to work, right? mike pence actually speaking

truth to power. could that help him? >> i think it's the only move for any republican. i mean, you just said it, you know, you're never going to beat coke with a bad new coke. it's not going to happen. i just want to go back to where you started the top of the hour, though, because it is so critical. everybody is talking about this as one of the darkest days, and i see the brightness of it. i see that we have a system, a madisonian system of government, a legislative branch that can conduct hearings, public hearings, and bring it forth. we have a justice department that can indict a president. we have a judicial system that will hear the hearing, that will hold a fair and open public trial. wow, wow, what an amazing -- i'm proud of us, if you will. obviously, you're putting up the death spot on the air now. as richard haass just said, we will now put it back on us, on election day. can we -- it's not on him anymore and not on the system. the system is working. it's on us now.

will this guy get voted in today? but it is the best of times and the worst of times, and i see the best of times. i am proud of us, that we are at this moment right now. >> mike, we've spent the last, gosh, what has it been, last eight years now, i think, swimming in the sea of donald trump's corruption, indecency, alleged crimes, crimes, everything else, and you kind of get used to it when you're swimming in the water. it's worth pausing right now and just stopping and saying, at 4:00 today, the former president of the united states will be arraigned in a federal courthouse on charges that he attempted to subvert democracy, effectively, to overturn the results of an election. it is certainly something we have never seen before in this country. >> no, we haven't. it's a tragedy, actually. part of it, the idea of a former president of the united states being charged with crimes that he committed while he was the sitting president of the united states. the question, i would think, willie, is how long do we pay

attention as a nation? i mean, we have such a short attention span it seems in this country. i was thinking about this last night. i mean, you listen to people like glenn kirshner, and you have this analysis of the law. it is an education, listening to them. but how long do we pay attention to that? 50 years ago this week, bob holderman, former chief of staff to richard m. nixon, appeared before the watergate committee, led by sam irvin. it was nationally televised. the nation was glued to the hearings. they paid attention to those hearings, each and every day. the hearings made an incredible impact on the country, politically and culturally. the question i have now for you, glenn kirshner, is, do you think the trial, the upcoming trial of the president of the united

states, the country sort of demands that it be on tv? it'd be a wonderful, educational event for people to really see the evidence put in play, the questions posed by the defense and the prosecution, and i think it'd be very helpful for everyone if that occurred. can it happen? >> it can happen, mike. i believe it has to happen. i mean, we have to drag the federal judiciary into the present day, even if they're figuratively kicking and screaming. you know, it's a little bit absurd that, you know, courtrooms, criminal trials are public proceedings, yet the limitation with respect to the public observing those proceedings is the size of the courtroom? that doesn't make any sense. you know, i have heard that they will be broadcasting or livestreaming the proceedings to

other courtrooms, what we call overflow courtrooms. maybe 100 or 150 people, 150 american citizens, you know, who will be directly impacted by how this trial, you know, ends up, can observe the proceedings? that makes no sense. ultimately, it'll be up to the chief justice, chief justice roberts, to decide whether, you know, this is the moment in time when the rules should make some sense, and they should militate in favor of transparency. when it comes to, you know, watching what the leader of our nation did to our nation. so i sure hope, mike, that the chief judge orders that these proceedings be televised. >> yeah, let's certainly hope. >> i agree. >> let's hope so. to the point made a minute ago, that it's on us now, the system is working, it's on the voters, well, republican voters are

making clear they don't mind at all. donald trump continues his polling in the party, continues to go up. the general election, as we know, could be a different story next year. also think about the 2024 candidates. it was refreshing, how candid and direct mike pence was just now. we're getting that from chris christie and asa hutchinson, but the majority are talking about pardoning donald trump. this is another example of the dual system of justice, that the biden crime family is involved here. this doj effort is to distract from the latest legal efforts against hunter biden. all of that nonsense, but it reinforces how bifurcated, depressingly bifurcated we are right now, joe and mika. >> couple different ways to look at that. the way i look at it is, they are just isolating themselves even more from mainstream america. we saw it in 2022. the poll suggested there was going to be a red wave. the polls also suggested that

the anti-choice forces were going to win in the kansas recount. the polls have been wrong time and again. middle america, the so-called silent majority, the silent majority, mind you, it is not so-called conserve tiff republicans. it's a lot of people in the middle. a lot of people really turned off and repulsed by the extremism they see coming from the republican house, coming from these presidential candidates that all think it's cool that you have donald trump, a former president stealing nuclear secrets. they think it's cool that you have donald trump mocking and laughing at a woman he raped, according to a judge, a woman he sexually assaulted, according to a jury of his peers. you have republican candidates thinking it's cool and also his apologists in the medi thinking

it's all right that he helped put together a conspiracy to overthrow the federal government. now, listen, they're going to lie to you now. they're going to lie through their teeth to you now. they're going to do everything they can to distract you. all you need to go see is their own words. look at their own words on january 6th. as provided to us by mark meadows and his text messages. the desperation of fox news host s begging donald trump to stop the riots, to stop the insurrection. his own daughter begging donald trump to stop the riots, to stop the insurrection.

don jr. begging somebody to impress upon his father to stop the riots, to stop the insurrection. all of them, sean hannity, laura ingraham. you can go down the list. that day, they knew exactly what was going on. exactly what was going on. so i hate using the term gaslighting, but that's exactly what they're doing right now. for ratings, i guess? >> they want them to show up for the debate. >> by the way, there's a candidate that's supposed to be the hot candidate, and, you know, he's saying, "oh, well, this is a two-tiered system." he wrote in his own book in 2021, i think, that donald trump was a loser for what he did on january 6th and challenging election results. they're all taking part in this

bizarre play where they want to gain more votes. they want to get more ratings points. they don't believe any of it. you don't have to listen to me. just look at their own words. their own texts. what they say when nobody is watching. >> there ya go. >> nbc news legal analyst glenn kirscher, thank you. >> thank you, glenn. >> greatly appreciate your insight on cameras in the courtroom. >> yup. >> i think, again, i've never been a massive fan of cameras in the courtroom, but here, when you have the most important criminal case in american history, and you have an ex-president that depends on conspiracy theories, isn't transparency what we must demand of our federal court system? >> yeah, joe. i think cameras in the courtroom are a must. because if we don't have them, what are we going to get? a one-sided account coming from trump's lawyers.

you're not going to get anything from jack smith and his federal prosecutors. frankly, that will not be a fair fight in the court of public opinion. let's be real, this case, in part, will be fought and won or lost, at least in the minds of the voters, in the court of public opinion. >> yeah. 100%. glenn, thank you. former president obama is committing to help in any way he can to secure president biden another term in office. according to three sources familiar with the matter, obama made a trip to the white house in june where he and president biden had a private lunch. they discussed the 2024 election, particularly the strength of former president trump's base. obama reportedly cited the increased political polarization of the country and stressed he was not concerned about biden, per se, but on trump's grip over republicans. obama also underlined his worry that trump could be a more

formidable candidate than many democrats realize. >> gene robinson, obviously very good news for the sitting president, joe biden, that barack obama has committed his time and energy and effort to doing whatever he needs to get him elected. i know you've heard it. we've all heard from democrats, that, you know, barack obama is in bali or something and not out campaigning, helping to save democracy.ceived from democrats barack obama, but the former president who is better on the campaign stump than anybody else out there right now, the fact that -- well, i'll ask you, how important is this commitment? >> i think it is very important. obama's position appeared before that he wanted to be the closer. he comes in at the end and sealed the deal. the fact that he recognizes, number one, that he needs to get

in earlier and to do everything he can starting now, starting yesterday to shore up and gain the support for joe biden, i think it's very, very good news for democrats. it is even better news if he brings michelle obama into the fray, along with him. also very popular among democrats. and, you know, look, they are extremely powerful as conveners of not just democrats but independents and others who remember the obama years as, you know, very fondly. so it's very important. it is very good news for joe biden. i think joe biden, frankly, understands the threat that donald trump poses to our democracy, certainly as well as president obama does. nonetheless, great that obama is in the game. >> susan, it's fairly

remarkable, the extended shelf life that barack obama has politically in this country. here he is, he's been out of the presidency for quite some time, and yet he is a critical component, obviously, of any re-election campaign for president biden still, after everything that's happened in the last six to seven years, barack obama is still at the top of his game. >> no, i think that's an excellent point to make. because, you know, you look at the incredible contrast between the actions of donald trump and his predecessor, barack obama. what's remarkable is that one of the reasons i think obama's popularity has held among democrats is because, you know, there was no scandal in his administration. there was only a sense that it was, you know, succeeded by this extraordinarily chaotic spectacle. if anything, that's reinforced

for many people, you know, why obama was their choice for leader. i agree with gene, he has been the closer. he's the best thing the democrats have going for them in terms of campaigning right now. you talk about michelle obama. remember, her extraordinary popularity -- donald trump was convinced in 2020 that michelle obama was going to come out and somehow swoop in and get the democratic nomination, no matter how many times he was told she had no interest in electoral politics. that's a testament to the enduring popularity of both of them. >> yeah. obviously, donald trump greatly fears michelle obama. the thought of her running against him is horrifying. donny, it is very interesting about the enduring power of donald trump, and what's so interesting is that you would expect powerful democratic politicians to be isolated and

not understand trump's power. but i do remember back in 2016, you had barack obama warning very early on, in all of obama's people, before anybody else, when we'd be outside in the hallways, it was always the david axelrods, it was always the robert gibbs. very early on they were saying, "you watch this trump guy. even when the media was going there's no way he could win, they go, watch this trump guy. worry about him." barack obama is still saying it. i remember bill clinton in late summer of 2016 warning democrats that he could win. joe biden was offering those same warnings. i remember ed rindell at the convention saying that everybody is making fun of donald trump,

but he could win pennsylvania. everyone was like, "you're joking." joe biden was there, too, in the get-together, live from the convention. he said, "oh, no, no, it's a real danger here." the fact that barack obama is still saying this eight years later, something that everybody needs to pay very close attention to. i'll be honest with ya, i'm so glad that he sent that message directly to joe biden. >> joe, i couldn't agree with you more. look, donald trump can win again. i've got to say that out loud, he can absolutely win again. forget what the polls are saying. he owns the base. he's going to get the nomination. last time, even despite the four years we saw of, what was it, 80,000 votes that separated them if they went the other direction, out of 80,000 votes, he still would have won. we need to say it out loud, donald trump can win. unfortunate, and we've talked

many times on this show, is how good all the biden economic numbers are, the bidenomics, biden still has an issue. the issue is people think he is too old. whether it's ageist or not, that's the issue. that is a big problem. barack obama, obviously brilliant man, he is saying the quiet part out loud. even as we come -- as this ex-president is going tb arraigned today at 4:00, he can get re-elected again. democrats have to put it on the wall, stare at it and say it out loud. >> absolutely. donny deutsch with the drowning orchids behind you, thank you. "the new yorker"'s susan glasser, thank you, as well, your piece is "trump's offense," on ""the new yorker."" >> okay. >> donny's place, get the pimm's cups in hampton's lounge act.com. all right. still ahead on "morning joe," a

look at the broad implications this third trump indictment has for american democracy. peter baker joins us with his new analysis for "the new york times." . first, democratic senator richard blumenthal joins us. we'll get his take on trump's indictment, and we'll discuss his push to keep kids safe online. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. from prom dresses... ...to workouts... ...and new adventures. you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past... they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need, make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination. - i'm lynette. if your teen is missing this is my husband, arthur. - yeah, you wouldn't believe we're in our 70's, huh?

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case because congress or the courts wouldn't hear it. he could walk in now and present it, and the conspiracies would go away if that was the case. instead, they're saying, everyone has a first amendment right to mislead the american people. obviously, he's been misleading the american people and what the vice president's role was. >> that was the former chief of staff to mike pence weighing in on the indictment and the legal defense the former president's lawyers are using in public appearances on tv. joining us now, democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut, a member of the judiciary committee. senator, good to see you. a lot to talk with you about, incluing this indictment. we were discussing the details of it. we'll see a former president of the united states on charges that he tried to mislead the american people on january 6th of 2021. what jumped out to you when you read the indictment? >> it can't be repeated too

often, no one is above the law. that quote from trump to pence, "you're too honest," is haunting, in a way, but equally so, having lived through that january 6th riot, now to watch donald trump appear before a court just down the block is going to be profoundly moving. the terror of that day, the damage it did to real lives, people injured and killed, capitol police. there were real consequences. you know, our democracy doesn't exist by magic. it's not a default state of being. it takes institutions and people who are willing to work, speak up, stand up for it, and we're going to see test of that democracy because donald trump was not indicted by merrick garland or joe biden. he was indicted by a grand jury. ordinary, everyday americans who were offended by what he did on january 6th and how he incited

the mob and how he engaged in that conspiracy. so i think that we're going to learn a lot about our democracy, and hopefully it'll be upheld. >> many of the people who were in that building with you on that day, on january 6th, mostly all of them republicans, have sort of backed off their criticism of donald trump. senator tim scott, one of your colleagues, he's well-liked in the senate, came out yesterday when this indictment came down and said that this is president biden weaponizing the doj. he knows better, of course. he was there. he knows what happened that day. he knows what donald trump did. in your private conversations with republicans, things they may not say out loud because they fear donald trump's voters, what are their true feelings about all of this and what we're about to see in this trial? >> there's no love lost in the united states senate for donald trump among republicans as well as democrats. you know, having lived through that day, when we were all aghast, frightened, terrorized, as we fled the capitol,

literally walked and sometimes ran and saw and heard the mob outside, saw through the windows, heard them in the building, and then we gathered in one of the hearing rooms guarded by the -- not just the capitol police, but the national guard, we made the decision to go back and count the vote. republicans, democrats together. unfortunately, that sense of purpose has been dissipated since then. i am really disappointed that some of my republican colleagues haven't been stronger in what they've said publicly about donald trump. >> senator, much of that fear to do so is fueled, though, by how popular trump remains among republican voters.

he's leading every poll. his numbers seem to only go up when he gets indicted again. what does it say to you right now? there are people in your state who love donald trump. there are people in every state who does. what does that say about where we are right now as a nation? >> i want to go back to a point that mika made earlier, because i think it is a serious one. put aside the politics. if you look at the intelligence reports these days in the united states of america, the most persistent and lethal threat to our internal security is violent extremism. it is no longer the terrorist who is going to fly an airplane into some building. it is within our country, people, extremists, white supremacists and others who would resort to violence over an election. so this trial is going to be a real test of our democracy. in a world where democracy is

increasingly under threat, it will be a real opportunity for the united states of america to show that no one is above the law. he's entitled to his rights just like any criminal defendant. he is assumed innocent until prevent interference, and this kind of violent extremism. >> so senator, there seem to be barriers to showing as you just pointed out, american citizens, the process of democracy, the process of a trial. we were talking earlier. 50 years ago this week, the watergate hearings were going on. the entire nation, you remember this. the entire nation was glued to those hearings. it was an educational opportunity for people not ordinarily mixing with politics or government to find out what was happening. so how is it that 50 years later with perhaps arguably the most

important federal trial ever to occur within the united states judicial system, one man, john roberts, has the ability to say, put it on tv. put this trial on tv with all the facts. the defendants, the prosecution, here's the questions. here are the answers. why not? one man stands between the public being educated and not being educated. >> i think that's an important point, mike. sunlight is the best di disinfectant. without it, people won't have a say. the prosecution can't do that under ethical constraints.

number tworks i have long supported legislation to open the federal courts including the united states supreme court where the chief justice sits, and there is no excuse in my humble opinion for the chief justice of the united states failing to open this courtroom because the american people need and deserve to see what goes on in this trial, and there is also no excuse by the way, for the united states chief justice failing to impose an ethical code of conduct for the united states supreme court. it is the only court -- i was talking yesterday to one of our most expected, the only court that doesn't have a code of ethics. they are answerable to no one, and i think the chief justice could defuse this issue by imposing a code of conduct this afternoon on the united states supreme court. >> we've seen in reporting for the last couple of months the impact of all of that and some

of the benefits of the members of the supreme court have received. i want to talk about legislation. it's called the kids online safety act. it advanced unanimously out of the congress last week, and now more than 40 lawmakers are co-sponsoring that bill. it meant no safeguards including kids to opt out of algorithmic directions. you and senator marsha blackburn of tennessee probably don't agree on a lot of stuff, but you got together for this bill. as a parent of two teenagers, this is critically important. what if it passes, and i think you expect it will. what will it do? what changes because of it? >> first, let me say in the united states senate, this kind of bipartisanship is rare, and

the partnership marsha blackburn and myself for reasons that you just mentioned may seem unlikely, but, in fact, we've worked for three years on this legislation and i do not take for granted that it will pass. we have 44 co-sponsors, evenly divided republican and democrat, almost half the senate, but the opposition is there from social media companies and the big tech platforms because they have profited relentlessly and tirelessly from driving this toxic content about eating disorders, self-worth, bullying, sexual abuse, drugs, and what this legislation will do is give you as a parent, tools to disconnect from those black box algorithms destroying this country, causing anxiety in kids so they will spend time on these sites. it will hold the big tech

platforms accountable for the first time to make sure that they are held legally responsible when they know that they could stop the harm to kids. we're talking about parents like you and young people who have come forward with these harrowing, haunting stories about lives damaged, lives lost that are so powerful. i think both senator blackburn and i have sustained this partnership over three years because of the voices and faces of these parents. we're going to meet with another group this afternoon. i'm trying to mobilize them so that we pass it not only in the senate, but then in the house as well. >> that's not anecdotal. we're looking at evidence and a lot of it that has done stuff to kids, made them depressed, and lonely. we would assume that -- are there senators that still have to be persuaded of the benefits

of this? >> there are, and i'm hopeful that we will persuade them because the big tech companies -- let me be very blunt, they have armies of lawyers and lobbyists, and we have been up against them before. we've seen this movie. it hasn't always ended well, and we need support from the american public, from those parents and young people. i met with a group of elementary school kids in hartford. just a month or so ago, and they told me how their friends or buddies are afraid to come to school because of the bullying. they're involved in eating disorders because of social media. it follows them home to their bedroom. when we were growing up, home was a safe space. it's no longer safe, and this anxiety and anger felt by young people has become a means of

social media exploiting them and making money knowingly. frances houghen, he testified we have documents themselves. they're not going to give up without a fight. >> your colleague, senator murphy, is working on similar issues. he's heard the same things in his meetings with teenagers, and he was on with us a couple of weeks ago talking about that. we'll keep a very close eye on this piece of legislation. it's called the kids online safety act. democratic member of the judiciary committee, senator rich blumenthal of connecticut. thank you so much. we appreciate it. >> thank you. still ahead, the trump supporters. are they considering a second option in the 2024 republican primary? we'll show you new polling on that. plus, an update on the case of donald trump and an conflict of interest concern raised by the special counsel. that's all straight ahead on "morning joe." traight ahead on "morning joe." d joints, i'm feeling this moment. along with clearer skin skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses.

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do you think he knew that he lost the election? >> do i personally believe that?

yeah, at first, i wasn't sure, but i have come to believe that he knew well that he had lost the election, and now what i think is important is the government has assumed the burden of proving that. the government in their indictment takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he had lost the election and the election wasn't stolen through fraud, and they're going to have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. >> that's a high bar. >> that's a high bar. now that leads me to believe that we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg on this. >> you think jack smith has more? >> oh, yes. i would believe he has a lot more, and that's one of the things that impressed me about the indictment. it was very spare, and there were a lot of things that he could have said in there, and i think there's a lot more to come, and i think they have a lot more evidence as to president trump's state of mind. >> donald trump's former attorney general with an ominous prediction for the former president in the 2020 election

case. it comes as trump faces arraignment today in federal court in washington. we'll get a live report from washington, d.c., and legal analysis on what we can expect from today's hearing. meanwhile, former vice president mike pence just gave his most direct criticism of his former boss. we'll play those comments for you. also ahead, the new reporting on a private meeting between president biden and former president obama over concerns about the 2024 election. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, august 3rd along with joe, willie, and me. we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemere, chuck rosenberg, jackie alimany, and associate editor of "the

washington post," eugene robinson. >> so willie, you know, yesterday i expected to hear -- i think we all expected to hear the best that the trump defense team had, the best that the trump apologists in the media had, and man, if that was the best they got, donald trump's in really big trouble because first of all as barr said, it's the tip of the iceberg. there's going to be so much more coming in here. it was a very spare indictment to get things moving, but there's so much more to be seen, but we saw savannah guthrie. we'll play the clip in a second. we saw savannah guthrie interview trump's lawyer, and this is on the very face of the jack smith indictment. jack smith said, you have first amendment right to say what you want to say. you even have a first amendment right to lie. you do not have though the first amendment right to commit a conspiracy to overthrow the federal government of the united

states. i mean, it just makes absolutely no sense. so they're either talking about the first amendment or over on other news channel, people were talking about a two-tiered justice system and talking about hunter biden's hubcap rolling off his '67 impala or something. we just heard it. that was bad. a '67 impala, you know, those hubcaps. they bounce the right way, they can take out an eye, but they're talking about this two-tier system, and as we've said, and i may have said it a little harshly yesterday when we said, we don't care if hunter biden goes to jail. i didn't mean it that way. what i mental was, if he should -- if he's done something, if he's found guilty, he goes to jail. hold on. oh, wait. that's what we do in america. for some reason, they can't say if donald trump's done something, if he's guilty, he

should go to jail. so they're still -- this is what, again, we talked about it yesterday. it is amazing to me that these people, kevin mccarthy, and people on another cable news station spent from election day 2020 to january 6th, undermining confidence in america's voting system. in american democracy. it's ended up costing a billion dollars. it will probably close them closer to $2 billion, but they did that, and they haven't learned their lesson. now -- now that donald trump -- it's like they're willing to just totally screw america. they're -- to trash america for this guy. i don't want to see his face. take him down. i don't want to see him face. take him down. i don't want to see his face. now they're willing to trash

america. they've already trashed democracy for that guy, and if you listened to yesterday, if you listened to republicans in the house, if you listened to people on other news channels, they're literally willing to trash america's judiciary. our judicial branch, the very branch in democracy that separates us from other countries the most if you follow history. it's always the great leveler. they're willing to trash that now, willie. just because donald trump got caught stealing nuclear secrets, because he got caught stealing secret war plans, because he got caught stealing all of these other documents and burrowed them away in his beach club in florida, and now they've got -- i don't know if you told you

this. we've got a 45-page indictment, and everybody in here that's testifying against donald trump, they're all trumpers. they're not democrats here. >> citizens. er is vants. >> they were citizens. public servants who were serving donald trump. they wanted him to win badly, but not so bad that we were willing to destroy the united states constitution and the american democracy in the process, and as we said yesterday, every one of these people that testified were testifying against their own self-interest because if donald trump had been in the white house four more years, they would have gotten more powerful, ultimately more richer and more well-connected in washington and the world. so there you go. networks and little members of congress in the republican party willing to trash american democracy, and now the judicial system in the name of donald

trump. >> how many off ramps? how many times have they been given the chance? like he took secrets to mar-a-lago and waved them around at bedminster. that was a bookkeeping issue. okay. how about an attempted coup against the government as detailed in this indictment? what about hunter biden? that is the political defense, what you are hearing on capitol hill from republicans. it's yes, we heard about the indictment, but did you hear what hunter biden did? did you hear what this new witness said? attempting to draw some equivalency there, and you're right. on the legal front, donald trump's attorney was on several networks and the defense is the first amendment. above "the new york times," the first amendment is likely the lynch pin of donald trump defense. that's where they're going, joe. as we talked about at length yesterday, and you reminded us, in paragraph three i think, maybe four, special counsel jack smith takes that away from them by saying, yes. you had the right to say all

these things, including lies. you can say whatever you want. what you can't do is conduct a criminal conspiracy, but in speech. >> thank you because as you know, i'm a dumb country lawyer waving things around and don't know where things are. thank you for birddogging it for more pe -- me. sorry. just -- i regress at times. paragraph three, the defendant had a right says, jack smith, like every american to speak publicly about the election. to even claim falsely there had been an outcome of fraud and he had won. he was also entitled to challenge through lawful and appropriate means. indeed, in many cases the defendant did pursue these methods. his efforts to change the outcomes through audits and legal challenges were uniformly unsuccessful. so he had a right like every

american to speak publicly about the election and to even claim falsely, willie, that there had been election fraud. he has that right if he wants to do it. he has that right, and so jack smith gets rid of that as you say in the third paragraph, and these -- these bumbling -- these bumbling lawyers are going, first amendment, first amendment. judge and jury are going to look at it and say, well, wait. jack smith talks about that in the third paragraph. so i don't know. i guess they just have absolutely nothing to defend him on. >> attorney general barr -- former attorney general barr as we played completely waved away that defense. he says that's complete nonens sense, the first amendment. that's what they're going with. we've seen from trump's team so far whether it's the first amendment -- we haven't heard as much that we've heard from other

politicians of the good faith argument which is that he actually believed the election was stolen and he merely was pursuing some of the things he had heard. now unfortunately for him, there are 45 pages of evidence saying, yes. his aids and his cabinet members told him he'd lost and that, in fact, these were lies. so that disrupts that as well, but what do you make of what we've heard on the first amendment grounds here? >> i'm glad you asked me about that, willie. there is a technical legal word for it, mr. barr used it. it's absolute nonsense. think of it this way. speech designed to commit a crime -- speech designed to commit a fraud is not first amendment protected. if i lie on my tax return, that's speech, but it's not protected by the first amendment. if you and i are running as ponzi scheme and we solicit money from joe and mika and tell them we're going to invest it in our investment fund and instead we buy a boat and an island and a minor league baseball team,

that is not first amendment protected speech. that's a crime. instructing a witness to destroy documents subpoenaed by the grand jury is speech. it's not speech protected by the first amendment. i completely agree with mr. barr on this point. that defense that the first amendment procludes of mr. trump, it will not work in the political arena or in court. period, the end. >> well, let's look at what's going to happen in court today. former president donald trump will be criminally charged today in washington, d.c. for allegedly trying to disrupt the same government he once swore to protect. at 4:00 this afternoon, trump will be arraigned in d.c. federal court on four felony charges stemming from his alleged efforts to block the peaceful transition of power following his 2020 election

loss. the charges are conspiracy to defraud the united states, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy against rights. members of the d.c. police department could be seen setting up security barriers outside the courthouse last night ahead of the former president's arrival. >> gene robinson, we haven't had a chance to get your take since this came down. >> mm-hmm. >> it's a remarkable document, 45 pages, and the president of the united states -- the former president of the united states once again marching into a courthouse to be indicted. >> yeah, and we get inured to this because this is not the last we have seen of donald trump. this is different. this is incredible. a president of the united states

attempted to cling to power, attempted to stay in office, to fight having -- despite having been defeated in a free and fair election. he refused to -- to peacefully transfer of power to his successor. that has never happened in our history, and it is -- it is historic that it is now being addressed with this indictment, and so this is -- this is a -- we're in a different realm now. you know, i certainly agree with you and chuck. i'm not even a country lawyer, but obviously the first amendment defense is a dog that won't hunt, but i think the more likely route that the trump lawyers are going to try to go is advice of counsel, that, well, he really believed it. he was listening to the noted constitutional scholar, john

eastman, and he was just listening to his lawyers. now the weakness in that of course, is that the attorney general of the united states and the white house counsel and the deputy white house counsel were all telling him, stop. this is ridiculous. this is, you know, you've got to -- you've got to stop this stuff. this is not nonsense. >> right. >> and the other reason is that the the lawyers he was listening to are all unindicted co-conspirators. there's that pesky exception to attorney-client privilege that i think would pertain here. these were co-conspirators. these were not lawyers giving disinterested advice, and so i just -- i don't know where he goes with this except the political case. what about hunter biden? >> he's got the political case. what about that hubcap that fell off of hunter biden --

>> two tiers. >> the media is sitting here and weeping for hunter biden. que sera, sera. whatever will be will be. we're on doris day's whatever will be will be with hunter biden, and there's just no equivalency, political equivalency, moral equivalency, to whatever that ends up being and a former president of the united states trying to overthrow the federal government. this is, like, benedict arnold's cousin, like, stealing an apple from, you know, whatever. it's just -- it kept -- okay. that wasn't the best example. >> we're just trying to -- >> we'll be working on that one. benedict arnold's nephew stealing a british -- i don't know. i just don't know anymore. >> if you are watching fox all

day, they never read the indictment. they never read the counts. they kind of hop around it and never read the indictment and never read these charges and talk about the fact that you don't bring an indictment without proof and talk about how many of these things we saw play out in front of our eyes done by donald trump, and many of these things we saw corroborated the january 6th hearings. you never hear that because it's too much fact for them. >> do you know, willie, how she knows that? because she keeps it on that station all day just to become reactive. please don't do that. let's watch -- >> you can't be blind to what's happening out there. >> let's watch all access pottery. don't get all -- she won't listen to me. i want to go chuck really quickly. i get what you are saying.

i have so much respect for what you are doing there. >> it's disinformation. >> i can't do it myself. the counsel that gene robinson brought up, i would think part of the problem is he had his lawyers around him, lawyers all around inside the white house. he had advisers. they all told him no. he went out and basically went forum shopping to find the craziest conspiracy theories he could find especially after his own lawyer said, mr. president, you've got nothing here. january 20, 2021 will be your last day. he goes and finds rudy giuliani who trump himself calls crazy. will advice of counsel carry any water in this court as a possible defense? >> i'm glad you asked me that. so first thing, joe, there is a defense known as advice of

counsel. you see it from time to time. it's a real thing. so i think this more important question is, would it pertain here? there are two basic elements to it. in order to have an advice of counsel defense, let's say joe, you, a wonderful country lawyer are my attorney, and i want to rely on you for advice you've given me to help prove that i had no intent to commit the crime i'm charged with. there are two requirements. one is that i'm completely candid with you, my lawyer, about all the facts of the case, and the other, element number two, is that i act in good faith upon your advice, and past is prologue, but mr. trump has had trouble with both of those elements, candor and good faith. it's a real defense. it may be available to him for him to try and trod out in a court of law, but he would have to establish again that he was completely candid with his counsel as i was with you, and that he acted in good faith upon

the advice of counsel, and i think those are stumbling blocks for mr. trump in any setting, certainfully a court of law. coming up, why donald trump's case around the 2020 election has broad implications for american democracy. peter baker joins us with his analysis of "the new york times" straight ahead on "morning joe." " ? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget-you-get migraine feeling. don't take if allergic to qulipta®. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. learn how abbvie could help you save. qulipta®. the forget-you-get migraine medicine™.

so let's take a look at the day ahead. justice reporter ryan riley is outside the courthouse in washington which is just a matter of blocks away from the united states capitol that was attacked on january the 6th, to 21. former president trump is waking up in bedminster and he'll fly down this afternoon. what do you expect to see at the courthouse around 4:00? >> reporter: a lot of secrecy. i think they'll bring him through the garage and up through the elevators. they've chosen the annex of the

building behind me. it's the newer facility that was built around 2005, and it allows them to bring donald trump in, and it's the same way they brought a lot of grand jurors in. through the garage and potentially right into the courtroom. from what we understand, there will be about 11 seats available to the media, but that will be on a lottery system. so despite all of our producers' hard work overnight standing in line here, we're not necessarily guaranteed to get a spot inside the courthouse, but there will be lots of overflow and there will be a media room. we'll be at least looking at this on a closed circuit television, being able to see what's happening inside the courtroom. it probably should be a very short hearing. i expect, you know, going forward in this case, we're probably going to see some change of venue motions. those have all failed in january 6th cases before, and the justice department has a lot of evidence to point to d.c. jurors are able to handle these cases appropriately despite the

democrat leanings of d.c., and both the proud boys and the oathkeepers case, there were acquittals. for several counts there were acquittals on both of those kaszst cases and there have been other acquittals in january 6th cases altogether, so there is some evidence that the process can work here, that jurors can swear their oath, can take these -- take the evidence on its face and despite, you know, maybe not being particularly fond of donald trump, can look at the facts and decide them fairly. you know, when chuck was sort of talking about the first amendment grounds, it struck me that potentially if that was the defense, they would be calling for the charges against hunter biden and that gun case to be dropped because then hunter biden has a first amendment right to lie about being a drug addict on a gun form. that is not something that's going to have much merit in this courtroom behind me, and

especially, you know, given the judges who know a lot of the facts about these cases. just yesterday we saw a defendant who was charged and it was a cardinals mascot who ran around the stadium in st. louis painted in red and he was just arrested yesterday. this is someone who a lot of conspiracy theorists believe was an undercover office, but nope. the sleuths identified him and lo and behold, he was arrested yesterday. these are continuing to churn and donald trump is just one more florida man charged in connection with january 6th. >> the red bird. >> an unofficial mascot. >> that was very disturbing to learn just a minute ago. let me ask you about security there. obviously a coordinated effort between the capitol police, and secret service involved as well with the former president being there. there was some anticipation around the arraignment here in new york city and lower manhattan. new york city police said don't try that here. it's not going to work, and by and large most people stayed

away. what are they expecting there in terms of a crowd? >> reporter: you know, yesterday we did see somewhat of a crowd as well as the day before. not massive. handleable, but, you know, i think these bike racks are going to keep people away from the building hopefully. when i saw them when i was here last night bringing them out, i was, like,, you know, bike racks, very on theme for january 6th. that was if first thing breached during that initial breach and that was not something that stood out. donald trump hasn't summoned anyone to come here pitch expect a lot of supporters to show up, but it's not this mass event, and it was done on a pretty quick time frame. it wasn't as though you could get necessarily a ton of people to show up because this is, you know, only basically 48 hours from when we learned about the charge ops tuesday. so, you know, we should see some supporters here, and perhaps trying to get their moment on

camera, but, you know, obviously d.c. is now in a posture where they can react to this pretty quickly and have a decent security situation set up here. >> the former president of the united states will be arraigned today at 4:00 eastern time in that courthouse behind you. nbc news justice reporter ryan riley. thanks so much. so john, he mentioned change of venue -- potential change of venue highly unlikely. donald trump suggesting the state of west virginia would be appropriate. he won by 40 points there in both of his elections. >> yeah. this was trump's take here on social media. he says let's move to an impartial venue, like the politically unbiased version of west virginia. they had nothing to do with january 6th, and he won by 36 points in 2020. i was talking yesterday, concern about security around it and

makes the point that donald trump's most violent supporters, those who will be likely to cause trouble, well, they're already in jail for january 6th. some of the news outlets have journalists who stand in line and try to get a seat in the courthouse, but we don't know if that's going to happen. jackie, we should note -- you have been covering this all very closely. trump's got a new legal team in place for these proceedings. tell us about what we know of them, and beyond perhaps the first amendment considerations, what other possible defenses might we hear from them today, and we should finally note that in previous indictments and arraignments, donald trump has addressed the media afterwards. they haven't said whether he will today. >> there are a lot of tbds right now, but at this point a lot of the media outlets are well-oiled machines when it comes to operating around donald trump's

indictments. we're going to potentially have a presser, or be doing a very last-minerally in the area, but a lot of that is up in the air, and as we've seen there is a lot of bravado, public statements, you know, claiming that trump is welcoming these indictments, people and allies on his campaign arguing that this is only good for his polling numbers, but at the end of the day when trump has appeared in the courthouse before the judge to enter his plea deal, he's appeared dour and extremely unhappy to be there. although, you know, in the aftermath, he has always made the rounds either at, you know, cafes around miami or, you know, parading through new york city in his motorcade, but he does have a new legal team that has a little bit less experience than the media does in attending these arraignments. he has todd blanch who has been with him since alvin bragg dropped charges to hush money

payments to stormy daniels. he was previously representing some other trump people, was brought onto the team. it was probably the most well respected and seasoned lawyer that is now helming the entire trump legal effort. there is also christopher who was on the mar-a-lago documents case. he's now more involved with that case. we haven't seen much of him with regard to the january 6th investigation. and the tv lawyer we've seen these past few days who also is someone who's well respected and has experience with this, but as chuck and a few people noted has been making some interesting behind the eight ball arguments about what trump's legal defense is going to be, primarily focusing on issue of free speech when jack smith's charges have very savily avoided issue. when i talked to january 6th

committee members yesterday who commanded smith with dropping the insurrection charge and going with conspireing against people's right to have their votes counted because it does help prosecutors avoid this argument over free speech, and instead gives juries a little bit of an insurance card to judge trump on his conduct as opposed to his opinions or beliefs. coming up, our next guest believes donald trump would be willing to kick off another insurrection unless he's held responsible for what happened on january 6th. the head of the republican accountability project joins the conversation straight ahead on "morning joe." (pensive music) (footsteps crunching)

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iran. >> it's not the hush money to a porn star that nobody denies, even donald trump. >> it's not the case where he was accused of rape by the judge -- where the judge said he raped that woman. >> it was sexual abuse and he was held liable. >> they were making motions. >> it was rape. >> common use the way the u.s. army uses the term rape. the way it's defined in dictionaries rape is, and he committed rape, but that's not this case. >> there's still another lawsuit because he continues to defame this woman with wild abandon, and so she's suing him again. >> this isn't the rape case. >> this is not the rape case. >> and not the nuclear secrets? >> it's not that one either. wait, no. it is that one. there's so many. >> so it's not the case that he tried to overthrow the federal

government and the election? >> it's not that one. okay. >> it's the rape case. >> jack smith has -- >> it's not the rape case. it's the case where they tried to steal -- not tried. he stole nuclear secrets and lied about it. i got it. >> he has asked judge aileen cannon to discuss trump is's handling of the classified documents including military secrets at his mar-a-lago club in florida. nbc news has learned the issues stemmed from stanley woodward's representation of trump aide walt nauta and other witness in the case. according to a court filing yesterday, woodward's current and past clients include three people who could be called to testify against nauta. nauta is charged with conspireing to obstruct the government's efforts to reclaim classified documents. woodward at one point also represented -- represented

yuscil taveras who was announced an aide in the alleged conspiracy to delete security footage at mar-a-lago. taveras was not indicted in the case, and there are reports he may have cooperated with the doj after receiving a target letter last month and obtaining new legal representation. despite taveras receiving new counsel, woodward's ongoing representation of nauta could still be an issue. that itself is a massive case. >> yeah. we've seen judges before bring up concerns about overlapping interests. here you're actually talking about the freedom, the possible freedom or the incarceration of several men here. i would expect a judge to step in and say, counsel a, you cannot represent these two or three people whose interests are

diametric -- could be diametrically opposed in the dealings with the government. do you suspect that's what we'll see? >> i do, joe. i think you're exactly right. i think this is relatively simple. if an attorney represents -- let's make it easy here, two people, and one of them is a witness at trial, and one of them is a defendant at trial, then that attorney has information because he represented both of them, that he could use to the advantage of one and the disadvantage of the other. that's the conflict. it's not that complex. the government was absolutely right to raise the issue with the court. the court has to hold a hearing on this. now of course, if the government succeeds in getting one of the lawyers getting kicked off the case, that slows things down a little bit. so be it. it's more important to protect all the individuals in the case or the record on appeal than it is to go faster than you would

ought to go. i would like to see all the cases tried before the election. that may not happen, moving to conflict out an attorney will inevitably slow the case down or could slow a case down, but as a lawyer, you always have a duty of confidentiality and loyalty to all of your clients forever. that doesn't end when one of them is charged and the other one becomes a witness. it lasts forever, and so you cannot use as a lawyer, confidential information you got from one person to help another. that's the conflict. it seems relatively straight forward to me. the government has a right to ask for a hearing and i imagine the judge is going to very seriously consider asking mr. nauta to find another lawyer. coming up, we'll go live to the federal courthouse in washington where former president donald trump is set to be arraigned just hours from now. nbc's ken delanian is there, and he joins us with the very latest

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these two individuals nauta and -- >> carlos. >> carlos are dragged into this thing. their lives turned upside down by trump to pursue, you know, this caper of his, and he leaves in his wake ruined lives like this, the people who went up to capitol hill. these individuals, many of the people who served him in government that got sucked into things, and he leaves all this carnage in his wake. >> do you think he cares about that? >> no. he doesn't care about that. loyalty is a one-way street for him. >> loyalty a one-way street. >> wow. >> we all know that. eugene robinson, just to build on this, it's ridiculous actually that walt nauta and the other criminal defendant have the same attorney as donald trump. it's ridiculous because at some point, this would be true in any

case. at some point, if you are working, you know, at the direction of a principal, and they ask you to do something illegal for them, your interest diverges sharply with the prince tall the second everybody gets arrested because you're able to strike a separate deal with the state or with the feds, whatever it is, and this is a case -- i just can't imagine the judge. i can't imagine anybody allowing these two co-defendants to be -- to be tied to donald trump with a lawyer who will not be giving them advice that is in their best interest. their best interest on how to stay out of jail. >> exactly. it seems obvious to me that nauta needs to find another lawyer, that this lawyer does have this conflict. woodward and that -- that seems

to be the end of that, you know, this is something i've rarely said, but bill barr makes such an excellent point there because look at the wreckage. look at the wreckage from the -- from -- the trump indictments, just the ones that we have so far, right? the first one, the stormy daniels payment, michael cohen, trump's lawyer went to jail because of that caper. look at the documents case. you've got nauta and, you know, he's just in the hot seat, potentially going to jail again. he's trying to follow donald trump's orders, and in this case, in the january 6th case, you've had more than what, a thousand people face justice. many of them go to jail, some of them for seditious conspiracy after donald trump fired them up

and sent them off to the -- to sack the capitol essentially. it is -- it is amazing, and it would be a travesty for all these other people to suffer the consequences of donald trump's selfish, egotistical, egomaniacal behavior, and for trump himself not the face consequences. >> jackie -- >> it's just right that he's facing consequences. >> jackie, what will you be watching and looking for today as we watch this historic moment happen before our eyes? c moment happen before our eyes

once he switched lawyers. the thing that jack myth was arguing yesterday is how is woodward going to cross-examine. . >> tease are in the kiemt indictment, either co-conspirator or who continues to work for president trump, and people like jason miller, who continues to be a senior adviser, suzy wyles who is a top person on the trump campaign. all people who have come before jack smith and cooperated in

some form or another, with the classified documents case or now, the january 6th case. >> willie, first of all, just suzy wyles -- >> very well said. considered one of the republicans, as the most important, powerful campaign minds in the state of florida. she's running donald trump's campaign. apparently based on reports. he's -- she's the one he showed, you know, these maps of war plans. so she's thrown right into the middle of that stuff. middle of that stuff. and secondly, i want to say, maybe it's a generational thing. but when bill barr calls a conspiracy to steal nuclear secrets a caper. a caper. >> well -- >> i would say stealing an apple pie from the top of a ledge is a caper.

>> i think he's actually -- there's a little bit of a -- i think he's talking about trump's stupidity there because he is so dumb. and what he's done with these documents is so dumb. everything he does, he does out in the open. and you read the indictments, all of them, he's so dumb. le knows how to play the media. and some fall for it. he's been working "the new york post" and "the daily news" since 1975 and 1976. and he really never figured out where the sharp line was between "page six" columnists and jack smith. it's going to likely -- i'm serious here. >> little difference. >> it will likely cause him his

freedom, because he's able to get away with stuff his entire life. he didn't figure out, you don't cross the feds. you don't do illegal things and expect to get out of an indictment and a charge that could send you to jail for life. >> you're right. he's operated in total impunity in his adult life. in new york city, in his days in politics. it's all a game to him. everybody has to be loyal or disposed of. now, he is learning this is not a game. jake smith is taking this seriously. and our justice system takes his alleged crimes very seriously. on your report what he would say to susie wiles. the former attorney general said, you're all going to be witnesses and have to testify. he will commit some other crime and do something else. and you're going to be accomplices. you're going to be in the room. you have to decide if that's worth it to you.

>> "the washington post" jackie alemany, coming on. >> and chuck is not a simple lawyer. i would not want to be as a simple country lawyer, a cross across the table from him. >> i would not. >> he seems so gentle. look at him raise that eyebrow. elite killer, baby. >> we appreciate your insight. >> see what he did with that eyebrow? that's a gift. coming up, what is driving the day on wall street. a look at the latest from cnbc, after u.s. stocks and bonds suffered a major sell-off following america's credit downgrade. keep it here on "morning joe."

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you can fine tune your settings with your remote audiology team. with jabra enhance select you can get the same advanced hearing aid technology and professional care you expect from a clinic at a fraction of the cost. try it risk free for 100 days. visit jabraenhance.com. as a legal matter, i don't see a problem with the

indictment. i think that it's not an abuse. the department of justice is not acting to weaponize the department by proceeding against the president for a conspiracy to subvert the electoral process. donald trump's former attorney general pushing back against the partisan talking point that the doj has been weaponized against the former president. we'll get a live report from washington in a moment, as trump is hours away from an arraignment hearing. >> it really is something. i go back to the announcement that they're downgrading because we're politically -- we have political challenges. during bill clinton's impeachment process, everybody was going to the floor. the hair was on fire. this is the end. this is the end. i remember going, this is what the constitution calls for.

let's go through the process. take a deep breathe. it was around christmastime. and i said, you know, right now, around america, a lot more people focused on the kids, putting up christmas trees, families coming home for vacations, hanukkah. they are not freaking out. we have a constitution that allowed for it in bill clinton's process. and allows for it in donald trump's process. if you're watching from the outside, this may seem shocking. but in america, we always say no one is above the law. this is simply keeping in that promise that maybe, just maybe, america means what it says and says what it means. >> this might be the best example of it, a former president of the united states, even he is not above the law. he know most of the republicans

say the department of justice being weaponized. they don't mean that. if they do mean it, that means our justice system should look the other way around what happened in the 2020 election. look the other way with everything we saw with our own eyes on january 6th. that's not weaponization. that's pursing justice. if in fact the former president of the united states had a hand in that, was involved in that, he should be charged with something. he will get a fair trial in washington, that starts today at 4:00 eastern time with his arraignment. >> 4:00 today. >> and what led up to this? the grand jury? is that a two-tiered justice system? >> 12 american citizen voters. whether in washington, d.c, or south florida or manhattan, wherever they may be. fulton county, georgia.

again, it's a grand jury made up of voters. not made up of left wingers. time and again, if you've just tuned in for the first time in a couple of days, this indictment, not left wingers. not "new york times" editorial page editors. not people that write columns for "the nation" or for "mother jones." these are republicans. not just republicans. these are trump republicans. i mean, trump's vice president, the senior leaders that donald trump put in charge of the justice department, the director of national intelligence that trump selected, the department of homeland security, cyber security, and infrastructure security agency, donald trump said it was the cleanest election of all-time. his senior white house attorneys, donald trump selected every one of those senior members of his campaign team.

people that all would have benefitted from donald trump stealing the election. they all stood up and said, no. and they testified and told jack smith and local republicans. >> we're losing the signal there. we have a busy day as we pick that up again in a moment. we're working on that. a very busy day, jonathan lemire. we'll see, perhaps, the former president of the united states is expected to go through a tunnel and up through the elevator. we may get a glimpse of him somewhere in that process. see a former president of the united states, sitting to be arraigned, for crimes he's alleged to have committed while a sitting president, to overturn a presidential election. >> this has never happened before in our history, a former president facing criminal charges. now, it will be the third time

in four months this will happen to donald trump. we believe that at this point, cameras will not be in the courtroom. there's hope that could change further in the trial. donald trump, we learned from u.s. marshals, he will be fptded again. no mug shot, they will use a photograph of him. it's not clear if we will hear from trump today. the previous indictments, they gave a press statement but have not said if they will do that. we shouldn't lose sight how unique and important this is, particularly for this case. he is being charged to trying to overturn the will of the people. trying to interfere with the peaceful transfer of power, the bedrock of our democracy. and one that will now, this case will be in the background, as he tries to make a bid for the white house again. one he hopes could, if he wins, would be able to make all of the legal trouble go away. the stakes couldn't be higher for our democracy. >> we have joe and mika back

with us. you plug in your camera as the same outlet of your xbox. it should have been too much charge for one place. >> definitely. >> i do. we're playing call of duty at the same time. we play madden a lot. explain to people why that happened. this is the top of mika's condo. and from the top of mika's condo, we've been dealing with a lot of canadian smoke. obviously, that sometimes interferes with the signal. also, of course, i blast when i'm doing the show, i blast lee greenwood's proud to be america. and it attracts american bald eagles. sometimes they get in front of that satellite dish. and they cause the signal to act up. i got to say, it's worth it. i want new yorkers to hear lee

greenwood in the morning. willie, you understand, right? >> since you're going there, you go up before the show. big cup of coffee. you stand there and summon the eagles. you're in various states of undress, it has to be said. and that's awkward when chopper 4 goes by and catches some of that. that's what you do. that's how we start our day. >> this sound you're hearing, that's the sound that midtown new york hears all the time. you know, london, apple studios, they have "let it be." well, the top of mika's condo, we got lee greenwood. let's let it breathe, y'all. little-known fact, willie geist, i'm a gold record, given to me by lee greenwood personally. >> come on. true story? >> i will bring it on the air. i do. i do.

>> let's get to real facts. >> its hanging up. >> you do love that song. >> hold on. >> i love it. >> i like how he said detroit. houston to l.a. new york to l.a. i don't like say new york city in the song. that's why i play it. you like this? >> i like it a lot. >> you know what? it's a very fitting song. now, we can get over this stuff, about my condo. >> never interrupt this one. >> you don't interrupt when he says stand up. maybe tomorrow, i bring in my gold record. >> when you said you had a gold record, i thought it was one of your sit singles from your disco phase. >> yeah. >> you know as everybody knows,

before i won, i was the writer and producer of "ring my bell." >> uncredited. >> all right. >> uncredited. i like to keep it quiet. look at that. oh, my god. >> that ferry. nice t.j. >> the staten island ferry, man. hold on. hold on. let's be quiet for a second. ♪♪ >> my gosh. spectacular. >> holy cow. >> wow. t.j., did you coordinate that? >> no. you have to let that breathe. >> no. >> willie -- >> i'm done letting it breathe. >> you got to let me. willie, we have to show t.j., right? the fact that t.j. had the statue of liberty, lee greenwood, the staten island ferry? all those things coming together

at once. >> we're a well-oiled machine. >> the ferry pulls out of frame just as the song ends for that single shot of lady liberty. >> t.j. >> ten minutes after the top of the hour. if you're joining us on the west coast, we apologize for joe and willie. >> what are you apologizing for? they love lee greenwood, too. the part of the song you love the most? >> and proudly stand up. and it stops, right? >> and everyone stands up. >> do you think lee greenwood would come on the show this. >> i don't. in about seven hours, former president donald trump is going to be arraigned in the d.c. courthouse. joining us now live outside the d.c. courthouse, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent, ken dilanian. ken, if we can get back on track here, will you set the stage for what we will see today at 4:00 p.m. eastern? >> reporter: no famous country

music singers, mika. but president -- former president donald trump, expected to fly here on a private jet and enter this building through a tunnel. we may never see him in public. but he's going to appear in a magistrate judge's courtroom. not the judge presiding over the case. as we saw in miami, it's a pretty proforma, a routine hearing. the charges will be presented and he'll have an opportunity to enter the plea. in florida, his lawyer entered that plea on his behalf. it's unclear if he will utter any words during this proceeding. the magistrate judge may discuss some coconditions, for example, impose some orders of not having contact with other witnesses in the case. that's unclear. mr. trump will have to be booked

and processed again. his fingerprints will be taken with a digital machine. as in miami, they're not going to take a mug shot photo. they will take an existing photo as his booking photo. it remains to be seen if he makes public appearances here or gets on the plane and leaves, guys. >> all right. nbc news justice dilanian. and sarah longwell, and state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave airenberg. you write in part, quote, the most essential facts of the case are not in dispute. nor did he deny any of the assertions made in the indictment on tuesday. mr. trump was astonishingly open at the time in declaring he wanted to overturn the election.

since leaving office, he has called for the turn of the constitution to reinstall him in the white house immediately. the question is, whether the facts add up to crimes, at a federal grand jury at mr. smith's behest. as no other president tried to dispute defeat at the ballot box before, in charges were brought. there's no president for applying the statute on the books for a circumstance. now, the justice suspect and the electoral system will engaged in a 15-month race to see which will decide his fate first. and the country's. the real verdict on the trump presidency is still to come. we're watching it play out in real-time. the issue of cameras in the courtroom will be a big one

moving forward? >> it will. obviously, no one has more interest in this than the public. such a bearing not just on history and what happened in 2020-2021, but what may happen in 2024 going forward. i think there's this tension there between the desire to have a trial on an orderly basis, but managing to find a way to get it done in time for voters to evaluate what it means for them before they cost their ballots. as it is, the classified documents case is scheduled for a trial in florida in may. it won't happen until after most of the republican primaries will be held. we'll know who will be the republican nominee at the moment. trump is the front-runner, way far out in front. and you know, this trial, we don't know when it will be scheduled. whether it can be scheduled before the voters get a crack at it. there's so many things on president trump's legal schedule. it's packed in there with the trial in march in new york.

he's got some civil trials coming up, as well. >> sarah, your group, the republican accountability project, is out with a new political ad in response to the third indictment. it will run in swing states on programs the former president is known to watch. let's take a look. >> you have to get your people to fight. and we fight. you'll never take back our country with weakness. we fight like hell. we will never concede. you don't concede when there's theft involved. >> hang mike pence. >> when we walk down to the capitol, i'll be there with you. and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. >> sarah, i'm looking at where

you're airing this ad, and it's places that are not hearing the trump in places on january 6th, in shows like hannity, and in state including pennsylvania, georgia, arizona and wisconsin, all of which are named in the 45-page indictment, as places that the former president of the united states, meddled, interfered to try to overturn the results of the election. >> that's right. look. donald trump, the indictments, they actually help him with these sort of hard-core trump voters. but it does hurt him for swing voters and those that might be persuadable. we've seen in the latest polling, donald trump and joe biden are in an essential polling tie. that's deeply frightening. you have to remind voters who donald trump is. remind him this is the guy that

tried to overturn an election. and we have to remind him over and over and over again. one thing i saw in all of the focus groups i do, is during the january 6th committee hearings, you did see some real slippage in support for trump. and so, elevating the salience of what he did on january 6th, reminding people how terrible that was, we want to continue to keep that in voters' minds, so they remember who this guy is. >> so much of this trial is going to overshadow the elections. timing is a big part of it. trump is facing so many in legal issues, what's your best analysis as to the sequencing of these trials? in particular, this one. the january 6th case, the attempt to overturn the election. when do you think this trial will get started? and is there going to be a change of venue to a deep red

state like west virginia. >> no. he's not going to get this case moved from washington, d.c. judge chutkan is a well-respected judge. just because she ruled against him, he wants to move it to a neutral site, like west virginia, where he won by 40 points in the last election. instead of judge chutkan, he would rather have the my pillow guy as a neutral arbiter. he's not going to get this. this case will go first. that's because washington, d.c. circuit, they have zero tolerance for games to delay things. judge canon, by contrast, is going to grant the multiple delays. the trial on the documents will take place after the election. i think it will get moved again and again until after the election. my counterpart in manhattan,

alvin bragg, recently said he would be okay stepping aside, moving his trial to allow for the feds to take precedence. that's something that state prosecutors often do, if the feds want to try a case, we let them. if they want to go first, we step aside. i think this case will go first, even before the new york trial. you can see this go in eight months, which would be around march. >> let's just say, judge canon has been criticized by the 1 1st circuit for decisions she made regarding special counsel. let's say here, if it is moved back, in her defense, this documents case, more complicated because you're dealing with so much classified material, than the january 6th case. looks like jack smith, this is a

lean, taught indictment of donald trump. it's something that you can almost prove on four corners of that indictment and have discovery on those issues with those people. judge canon will be dealing with more complicated issues involving security in her case, correct? >> yes. all true. there's the federal act, the sepa act, that does not apply to january 6th. and jack smith clearly wants this case to go first. you know how i know that, joe? as you said, it's a streamlined case, where the other co-defendants, the coconspirators were not indicted here. there's six other people who will be indicted in this case. but they're not indicted with trump because jackson didn't want them to bring the case down. so, their day of getting their day of reckoning is coming. i think you saw that jack smith didn't want to swing for the fences here.

it's a taught case. he can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. there's no conspiracy or incitement of a riot or insurrection charges. the charges he filed were charges we expected months ago. after all, a year ago, judge david carter said it was more likely than not that donald trump committed the crimes of obstruction of an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the united states. these charges are not much of a surprise. it's likely as in the other case, there's going to be more charges that will be coming later. superseding charges coming later. you're right. he started this thing out. and he wants it on the rocket docket to get it moving. state attorney for palm beach county, dave arenberg. let's ask you, the same question that i asked my fellow former

republican travelers, what they are hearing from people close to them who have supported donald trump over the past couple of elections. i noticed. charlie sykes has noticed, there's an exhaustion that set in. and people, a lot of republicans -- i'm not saying 55% or 60% of republicans, but a lot of republicans who have been with trump, from the beginning, say i'm exhausted, i'm tired of him attacking other republicans. we have to find somebody else because i want to win. >> yeah. that's the problem, right? you can't beat something with nothing. this field of candidates has been showing us nothing. ron desantis, nikki haley, all of them decided they are not going to go hard at trump. they're going to defend him when the charges come out. as a result, donald trump continues to dominate this primary and all of these other

candidates have become bit players around the drama of donald trump. there's no opportunity for somebody else to break through. i talk to the republicans, every week. the two-time trump voters. there's a chunk of them that want to move on. i did a group just this week. and i was asking them, if donald trump isn't the nominee, who would you like to see? well, i like tim scott. he seems nice. i like swami. nobody even brought up ron desantis. he didn't get mentioned organically, which i thought was telling. but there's nobody that people are consolidating around, that they're excited about. there's got to be somebody that's willing to go head-to-head with that. and they've all chosen to run for second place because they're all defending him.

>> you can't beat something with nothing. it's a catch-22. you can't beat the guy at the head of the pack if you're afraid to go after the guy at the head of the pack. but the loyalty runs so deeply to donald trump, even from people who are exhausted. they may want to go to donald trump. but they don't want fellow republicans the attack this guy, when media is attacking, liberals are attacking, democrats. there's -- seems to be this feeling i can criticize donald trump. i don't want to hear other candidates or the media attacking him. >> there are republicans that have gone straight at him. like chris christie and asa hutchinson and will hurd and they haven't gotten attraction. that strategy hasn't worked

better than not going after him strategy. right now, he is the dominant uncontested figure inside the republican party. attacking him and sucking up to him hasn't worked for any of the other contenders. they have not demonstrated they can track a following or be the alternative. i thought they were running on the assumption, that trump would self-destruct. they wouldn't take him on because they would wait for him to implode and pick up the pieces not alienaing his base. that doesn't seem to be happening. doesn't seem to be any sign that trump is going to collapse of his own weight. this third indictment is at stake and more fundamental to our system. it's harder to brush off hush money for a porn star. well, you know, mishandling documents. this goes to the heart of our

democracy. it forces republican voters to take seriously what he's been accused of. we haven't seen slippage in a major way that's provided an opening for another candidate. >> not yet. we'll be watching as things play out after the arraignment today. again at 4:00 eastern today. we'll carry that live on msnbc. sarah longwell, thank you for being on with us. and coming up on "morning joe," a downgrade of the nation's credit rating drove wall street deep into the red. but experts say the sell-off is nothing to worry about. cnbc's russ sorkin is going to be here. he has analysis ahead of the opening bell. >> i'll bet he is a big lee greenwood fan, too. >> i think he is. plus, the first sign of movement in a stalemate between hollywood studios and the writers on strike since early

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look at beautiful seattle for you this morning at 32 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." >> do you think lee greenwood on top of the needle, willie -- do you think if we blasted that -- maybe won't go over as well as n seattle. >> you find the highest peak in every american city and you play lee greenwood and you're going to get a good reception. how could you not? it's our -- not our national anthem. but pretty close. >> pretty -- it's pretty close. let me tell you, the response is

last segment or predictable. let's go -- i don't know. >> are you on threads? >> i'm on the threats and the twitter. >> no twitter. you're not on twitter. let's be honest. >> this is the type of threads that i like. "morning joe" is so much better when joe scarborough takes the day off. let me say -- let me say to that person, i agree with you. it's so much better when i get to take the day off. then, they say, why is mika so rude to you? you're never rude to me. sometimes you have to be assertive. >> yeah. now, we're going to the twitter.

the kids are calling x. >> i'm off twitter. i'm not doing it. >> there seems to be a theme here. joe nbc, you need a day off. >> oh. >> exactly. yeah. there's a lot of this. oh, joe needs to be back on his meds. i do. i think i need to take a couple of days off. you have to listen to the people. >> the credit score has been downgraded. >> you should embrace that criticism and take some time. take some you time. >> sweetie, i got to take -- >> no. >> can i just say this? >> no. no. don't do that. >> willie's right. >> no. i need to worry about me for

once. willie, can you cover us. >> i like reading the feedback on the air? >> me time. >> real-time. real-time. >> america's credit score has been downgraded earlier this week. fitch ratings reduced the country's credit rating from aaa to aa-plus. and steady deterioration in standards of governance over the last 20 years. yesterday, the downgrade sparked a sell-off in stocks. and the s&p 500 fell 1.4%. >> let's bring in the anchor of "squawk box." andrew sorkin. when i say what i'm about to say. i probably sound like a lot of people on september 14th, 2008. or sound like a lot of people in september of 1929.

but this fitch thing with jamie dimon sounds like a lot of nothing. you look at the resilience of coming out of covid, we may not be doing great. but we're the tallest building in schenectady, at least for now. >> that, we are, joe. and for that reason, almost alone, i don't think you can take anything immediate or technical away from what fitch has said here. the bond market folks, whether it's warren buffett, jamie diamond, we talked to joe manchin this morning. everybody recognizes, it's not -- the report is not going to change anything. there's reasonable questions why they put out this report and the downgrade when they did, given that the own models show that things are actually getting better. if they were going to put this out before, you would think they

would do it two or three years ago. if they're going to downgrade our debt and you want the ratings to have semblance of accuracy or anything, you have to go to every other country. when the united states sneezes everybody else sneezes. there's that. having said that, there's something valuable that fitch is raising this issue. i'm not going to say, hey, we have a debt problem in the united states. to relate this back to lee greenwood and his famous song. is he a one-hit wonder? i think that was 1984. >> hold on a second. hold on. willie, can you please correct andrew ross sorkin? >> wood. >> willie. help me. >> first of all, it's greenwood, andrew. >> it's out of ignorance. what are the other famous songs he's got?

>> well, first of all, willie, can you let andrew know the correct pronunciation of lee's name? >> greenwood. greenwood. "somebody's got to love ya" number one song. we can go on and on with this game show. >> i was going to say, in the early '80s, i was trying to relate it back. in the early '80s we had about $5 trillion of debt in the mid '90s. and we have about $32 trillion of debt today. and so, from a trajectory perspective, obviously, that's a very bad thing. >> we're talking numbers, andrew. the economy, blah, blah, blah. willie, let me add to this. i can't believe what i'm hearing. of his singles, seven have reached number one. a one-hit wonder? >> okay. i'm wrong. i'm wrong. >> a one-hit wonder?

we did the theory of relativity. oh, lee greenwood did "proud to be american." come on. seven number one hits. >> good bless him and america. >> i don't mind the thorns if you're the rose. >> exactly. >> "going, going, gone." >> this is so stupid. >> go ahead, andrew. >> it's probably good that i don't cover the music industry. let's just leave it there. go ahead. you were saying. >> we have a debt problem. it has not truly reared its ugly head in any meaningful way yet. the question is when and if it ever will. and politically, in this country that we live in today, that is so kohlerized, is there any way to take control of this?

in an environment where people wants stuff and doesn't want to give up stuff, it's hard to see how we get there. as much as we think that should happen. >> as you know, jpmorgan ceo said of the downgrade, it's ridiculous and doesn't really matter. we make the markets make the decisions, not rating agencies. >> pretty much. one second. the market did go down yesterday. everybody, all of the headlines say it's a result of fitch. i'm not sure that's the case. we had hot, good jobs numbers out of adp. we get the unemployment rate tomorrow from the government. and the important part about that is, the numbers are so hot, and good, in some ways, we talk about this, there was a view that the federal reserve may try to raise interest rates as a function of the fact that actually there's so much employment. that's why the stock market moved the way it did yesterday, as opposed to the fitch thing, that's an obvious headline, but

not necessarily how we got here. >> that's good context. >> one man's view. >> let me ask you. looks like there may be -- i don't want to get too excited. but talks on this writers strike in hollywood. not the actors side. but the writers union is now talking, perhaps in a productive way to end this with some of the studios. >> there's going to be a meeting on friday. it will an important meeting to set up more talks. this is directionally in the right direction. there's a potential plan to put together committees, to talk about issues. a.i. and other things being among them. i don't think this gets resolved by the weekend. does it get resolved by labor day? we don't know the answer. and where do the actors' piece of this, does that get done at the same time? do they try to nail down the writers first and then the

actors? this will play out several more weeks, if not longer. >> all right. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much. we're sorry about all this. >> sorry for my musical knowledge. very low. >> go on spotify or apple today and put lee greenwood on a loop. you'll be fine, young man. >> thank you, andrew. coming up, we're following donald trump's arraignment this morning. he's set to appear in federal court hours from now, over his attempt to overturn the 2020 election. our next guest experienced firsthand the threats and chaos surrounding those efforts. arizona's top elections official joins us straight ahead on "morning joe."

we moved out of the city so our little sophie could appreciate nature. but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch.

we're projecting that kati

hobbs is the winner. >> secretary of state of arizona. nbc is projecting adrian fontes as the winner. >> arizona attorney general for only 280 votes. >> the former candidate, kari lake is vowing to take her fight to the supreme court. >> abe holiday is filing a lawsuit. >> today, the maricopa county heard arguments in the mark finchem lawsuit. >> just into the newsroom, a judge has ruled against kari lake's lawsuit. >> a judge denying abe homedae's election challenge. >> a judge has tossed a case by mark finchem. >> kari lake has been -- >> former secretary of state

candidate mark finchem has been censured by a judge, challenging the 2022 election. >> republican candidates for four top offices in arizona's 2022 elections fought and lost. their election challenges. joining us now, adrian fontes. his 2022 election opponent, just dropped his challenge to his election loss on tuesday. my goodness. >> thanks for being with us. we're looking at election deniers, obviously, on the national stage. you're dealing with it there. i think one of the really pleasant surprises, i think that's an understatement, in the 2022 election, was to see how election deniers were roundly

defeated in office after office, in arizona, nevada, and other states where they seem so prevalent. what was your takeaway from '22 and where we are going into '24? >> first, thank you for having me. second, people understand the business of america is business. business and government work hand in hand, when you have unpredictable, chaotic folks running government, that's bad for business. that means families will ultimately suffer. what we ran on in arizona wasn't necessarily probusiness, it was prosanity. prorational thinking. progetting stuff done instead of the radical conspiracy theorys that opponents were running on. some won by wide margins, some narrower. but we made certain to talk to the entirety of arizona's population, not just the left or the middle.

we talk to folks on the littal right, to let them know, they were going to be in good hands. we would have rational, reasonable, thinking people in office. that ended up helping carry the day. >> peter baker has the next question for you. peter? sir. after 2020 and 2022, of course, there's been so much questioning of the veracity of our system. what is it that you and other people who run our elections can do to convince americans that they should have faith in the system again? because obviously at the heart of a democracy is the faith that voters will be respected. a lot of americans right now questioning that, thanks in part to donald trump telling them they should. >> strong and steady. i think that's the thing we have to do. we will stay on message. we'll make sure that the story of the people who actually run our elections gets told. these are folks who are just good citizens.

they're our neighbors. they're retirees. they're people who have been in our communities for a long time. they're the ones working the polling places, they're the ones in the warehouses, the ones who are helping in these bureaucratic offices that nobody ever used to talk about. and slowly but surely, we're going to defeat the big lie by slow, steady, constant work. that's the way we're doing it here at the arizona secretary of state's office, and we're going to keep doing it with strength. we're not going to pull punches when it comes to truth telling. we're not going to be nice to folks who want to overthrough our democracy. the combination of strong and steady is what arizonians wanted. that's what they got and what they're going to continue to get. >> you did, mr. secretary, defeat the big lie yourself, as has katie hobbs, as the centerpiece of your opponent's arguments in the race, and you won, as did hobbs. you state, arizona, it's underlined again in this 45-page

indictment, that arizona is at the center of a lot of the conspiracy theories around the 2020 election and beyond. a state where those cyber ninjas i think they call themselves, came in and were searching for bamboo in the ballots on the conspiracy theory that the ballots had been shipped in from asia. i know it's hard to follow. it sounds like i'm making it up but i'm not. my question to you is how do you convince a rather large segment of our population that has fallen under the spell of all these conspiracy theories to sort of step away from it? how do we return rational thinking to our politics? >> the beauty of american democracy is we get our strength in our diversity. that cannot just be diversity of ethnicity or religion or all that, but diversity of thought. there's always been folks in this country who have thought things that nobody else really can understand or agree with. the bottom line is, we need a lot of different perspectives, even if they're not based in

reality, so we can know what is reality. and who is actually telling the truth at the end of the day based on truth. so we just continue down that same road, with strength and with stability, and we just keep telling the truth over and over and over again. because at the end of the day, that's what bears out. we have seen case after case, not just here in arizona, but across the united states of america, showing that when evidence is called for, when a court of competent jurisdiction comes and says like they did in the oldp wendy's commercial, where's the beef, and the beef doesn't show up, we know what the truth is. slowly but surely i think we're going to be in good shape, but it's going to take a little time and patience. that's okay. this is a society of instant gratification. but a lot of us know that when it comes to the big, big picture, american governance, the slow and steady hand will ultimately win out. >> so mr. secretary of state, on that idea, what is the plan here

for outreach, to sort of reassure the public, to install a sense of confidence in people to people who maybe are skeptical of the veracity of the ballot, who are believing the big lie? arizona is ground zero to a lot of politicians who have made their name on that. talk to us about those efforts, both voting law changes and also simply public awareness campaigns. >> well, it's those things and talking to the folks who are directly involved in these things. look, i had some of those election deniers in my own office, having those conversations about how we're going to improve election systems. we put our disagreements aside and come to agreement on the things we can come to agreement on. you know, some of them, the cracken lawyer squad themselves. some are folks who have been calling for hand counts of every ballot across the state. but you take the time and the patience. you show a little bit of grace. you sit down with these folks, even if your fiercely disagree with them, and you talk about things. and eventually, coming to

agreement on those things where you can find agreement will get you to the place where you can have those other conversations. that's just what some of our lawmakers. but of course, the public outreach, going through the political channels, using the media, dealing on social media as well, all of these efforts are necessary. every turn, at every turn, with every channel we can approach is where this fight is going to be fought. sometimes it's going to be with a gentle hand. sometimes it's going to be a little stronger. but at the end of the day, you just keep on pushing and you keep on pushing, and that's what's going to get us back to reasonable, rational thought when it comes to these sorts of things. it will take time, but we will get there, i'm confident. >> arizona secretary of state adrian fontes, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. chief white house correspondent for "the new york times," peter baker, thank you as well. we'll all be watching today at

4:00. >> we all will be watching. jonathan, i don't know really what to say about the boston red sox. so i'm going to leave that to you. >> typical red sox, on the west coast to disappoint. that's the headline of the day, but we'll focus on other matters now. no trades. >> willie, the yankees? >> they scored some runs last night. that was a good development. >> it's like secretariat starting to take that break right down the final stretch. >> that does it for us this morning. >> ana cabrera and jose diaz-balart -- >> we have to hear the chorus. they're next.

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right now, special coverage with the third arraignment of donald trump just hours away. lines and heavy security already this morning at the courthouse in washington. the 45th president set to appear at 4:00 p.m. this afternoon. >> ahead this hour, what to expect as trump walks through the courthouse doors and his new demand to move the trial out of d.c. plus, a complicated choice facing unindicted coconspirators rudy giuliani. could they flip on the former president? >> later, trump verses his veep. mike pence doubling down amid their growing clash. >> sadly, the president was