nominee, what you're going to have is the juxtaposition between joe biden, who is running to do the business of the american people, and donald trump who's running to get out of jail free card. and i've got to hope that, even in this country, that some persuadable voters consider that. >> michelle goldman, elie mystal, banked four coming in. that's all in on this three eventful thursday. alex wagner tonight starts now, good evening, alex. od>> great to see you, and thans to you at home for joining us this evening. around noon today, donald trump left his golf state and bedminster new jersey, he got on his trump plane at newark international airport and flew back to washington, d.c.. and when trump arrived there today, it was just showing up for courts. he was returning to the scene of the alleged crime. the federal courthouse where, trump was arraigned today, sits near both the ellipse, we are trump riled up the crowd on

january 6th, and the capital plaza, where rioters stormed the barricade -- to stop the peaceful transition of power. the court room that trump was in today's the very same room where numerous january 6th cases have been heard. the judge overseeing trump's arraignment has also overseen the cases of people including dominick box, a qanon activist who livestreamed the storming of the capital and jarred wise, a former fbi agent who's charged with assaulting a police officer on january 6th. so this was all very much a trip down memory lane for mr. trump. now that we're no courtroom cameras today. but thanks to courtroom sketch bill hennessy, we know what it looked like when a former president of the united states appear in court to be formally and federally charged for trying to subvert american democracy. it was more than 110 people in the courtroom to hear this

arraignment, including several of the federal judges who have been presiding over other january 6th cases. judges who showed up today in plain clothes as spectators for trump's arraignment. the judge presiding over today's arraignment was a u.s. magistrate judge motility of via. she read the charges against trump allowed in court. mr. trump pleaded not guilty to all four felony charges. and then the judge gave mr. trump a warning. if you fail to comply with any of your conditions of release, it warrant may be issued for your arrest. your conditions of release may be revoked, and you may be held, pending trial in this case. she continued, your most important condition of release, sir, is that you're not commit a state, federal, or local crime while on police. i want to remind you, that it is a crime, to try to influence a juror or to threaten or attempts to bribe a witness or any other person who may have information about you, your

case, or to retaliate against anyone for providing information about your case to the prosecution or to otherwise obstruct the administration of justice. there has been so much discussion about whether trump will face jail time if he's found guilty in this case. but until today, until the judge sent that, no one had really consider the possibility that trump could face jail time during this case. mr. trump is a man with a storied history of a flagrant rule breaking, but he is now behind by the rules of the court for the duration of this trial. and if he violates those rules, prosecution can move to revoke the conditions of his release. they could argue that trump should be behind bars, before this trial is even finished. on that note, one of the looming questions about this entire process has been when will this trial take place. will there be a trial before the election? will it happen before the republican party chooses its presidential nominee? today we learned that we will

get an answer to that very question in less than a month. the judge schedule trump's next hearing for august 28th, a little over three weeks from today. worthy date for trump's actual trial, united states versus donald john trump is expected to be set. i want to turn out msnbc's chief legal analyst -- and nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett. laura, let me get your sense of what, if anything, is signaled by the setting of this august 28th days. and the judge today said, the trial judge is going to actually decide on the trial date on august 28th. >> a couple of things. the magistrate judge made it clear she had actually told to judge chutkan. the one who is the trial judge, who's going to be for nicholas entire show. she made clear, we've already chanted. we've already figured this all out. she came ready with tights.

they couldn't say, okay, we'll sit you later. lots of times you have this first appearance, but you don't get an extra tight until later on. today, everyone was like,, nowhere ready to go for later in august. that's number one. number two, she made it clear, we are going to actually set a trial date at that next date. and august, august 28th. at that date, we will actually know, at least for now, when the trial will be. doesn't mean it won't get pushed, doesn't mean they won't try to delay, doesn't mean things can't come up. but it's significant because it shows where judge chutkan's head is at. i'm not going to allow this thing to be derailed. doesn't mean there won't be a text, but it's signals where her expectations are. >> it seems to be, aria, like a tested rebuke to the floated strategy of the trump legal team, which is, we're going to try and delay this until trump is president, or at least in a position of power or he can actually tinker with the wheels of justice. >> yeah, it kind of -- their down and the count but one to run out the clock, which is unusual. but here the idea was to clock

reset in november, they think, if they control all the justice department. that's different. of course, than other defendants who aren't running for president. i don't know how well you know -- >> pretty well, actually. i call it pacer. >> we asked this question, why is this not different. it's an organizing question, you can use it in any space. what was this arraignment different today? we've heard about other arraignment, we've heard problems -- i thought you in your introduction, reminder viewers of the scale and scope of this, spoke of the questions that went down. different business, different discuss this a little bit, u.s. may have caught up during the day. he was may have covered in realtime. he's on trial, the trial will be sick soon. and there will be a date for it, for overthrowing the government that he was in custody of. this is different because of that. second, it's the only time he's been and dine for conduct as president. so those other cases were all

perhaps important, there are not about what he did in office. they're about any classified documents, what he did afterwards, and in new york, business. and most importantly, and i think it's the premise of your entire opening tonight, this is the pick one. he's not trying to run out the clock in new york the same way. they did some shenanigans, but there is a world where he's convicted in new york, alex, and he's not sent to jail or prison -- and so, he tells his supporters, it wasn't a big deal, it's a slap on the wrist. life does go on. i'm not minimizing that, but functionally, this is different. he could stand trial before the general election, he could be convicted, he's presumed innocent tonight, but if convicted, that appeal could go to the d.c. circuit. it's a fairy serious courage, only seconds to the supreme court, in terms of the appeals court. they could give a nonpartisan role in upholding the conviction.

and then the supreme court has to decide, with all of the problems they have, do they really want to come in and overturn something we couldn't leave it? if they get that conviction, and they leave it, meaning they don't make the case, he goes to prison that week. >> you are already -- the vision of the orange jumpsuit, john roberts getting involved. just lets -- >> were not there yet -- >> we are not there yet. this is orange-ish but not a jumpsuit. >> decidedly not. >> as an officer of the court, i would just like to -- >> do you want to overrule! >> i -- >> i'm not saying that will have been. i'm saying, whether you call that a one person or a 49%, it remains -- the defendant felt that. >> this was the one everyone was sort of waiting for, because for a while, we are now at a point where he's being arraigned, for a while it was not clear he was even going to be charged in this case. it is so significant to even be at this point because for so

long it was like, well, it's not going to be giuliani or -- >> this -- is >> exactly! it was not even clear that he was the target, much less than we would be at a point -- >> the other thing i think makes this difference is, the mar-a-lago indictment was full of new information. and certainly there are bright comes of new information in this january -- >> the rockets thought even here. >> for sure. but a lot of it we know because of the house investigation into january 6th. i wonder how that really dovetails with the argument from the trump campaign, right now, in court today, that this discovery process is going to be a beast. they're already setting the stage, trying to push this off as long as possible. the reality is, of course this going to be norm formation. but a lot of the stuff has already been litigated in court. there's already been rulings on privilege, both executive and attorney-client. and i just wonder, i mean, whether you are optimistic about trump's defense trying to

claim this is all in cook needed, workaround need months and months and months -- >> this is where the judge is going to have a huge role to play. phil p. deciding which motions are legit, which things are not. i will say, it is interesting to me to note which things are not in that indictment, which were in the january 6th report. there are a couple, sort of, big ones that were not and that indictment, which makes me think that there is more to this, either they are working on deals, trying to flick around who will cooperate, or who was, it it is unclear. but it is worth noting, the more times when his attorneys were taught, specific, late this plan is illegal. it's not legally sound. why is that not in the indictment? there is interesting little things like that, i think, to note. so to the extent that there is more there, sure, they're going to have an argument about discovery. but the judge is going to be deciding whether or not that's okay. >> and in the words of glynn -- these judges come into play. the fact that there suddenly trailed it in three, weeks

that's indicative of people not wasting time. >> can we pull about lowers? i don't know if you noticed, the reporting that evan corcoran was in the courtroom today. apparently still affiliated somehow with donald trump and his defense team. evan corcoran, for people who forgotten, is sort of almost like i star witness in the mar-a-lago case from what she had to recuse himself. to you think it's odd that trump is keeping evan corcoran in the mix, as it were, given how, wouldn't you want to keep him in the false -- >> defending? >> it's not clear who was acting in the defense council. he was not sitting at the table. he was there as a quasi-supporter in the same way warren epstein is a quasi-supporter. >> do you think this is key pure friends close? >> defendant trump is playing any angle he can, even people who have obviously given out

negative information about him, he wants to keep them close. you mentioned, the predicate under all of this was general sixth committee. they were using the trump aides, sometimes lawyers as witnesses. jack smith clearly has that and then some. and again, we have discussed this. none other than 21 savage who says game versus the world was always us, paint you wrote a statement that really messed me up. contemporaneous notes. mr. corcoran was -- forced the worlds. he was supposed to ride or die for trump, except he didn't because trump allegedly did things so bad, so obviously heinous against council that he felt the duty, even as a trump lawyer, to start keeping notes, and they're using that. he's in court today, trying to tell his, once on the same team

gang, friend, we're still good. but we know there are not good because of the cooperation. -- i say it, we don't know exactly what mr. meadows is doing. we do know they provided information. we don't know in the final practice of this and documents, which was the subject of today's and raymond -- saying what trump said, welcoming the violence light that day. you don't put that in the indictment, unless you have eight dead to rights, prove -able in court. jack smith is by the book. i would expect, on that list, there are people like who mr. corcoran was -- >> we know mister pence, the vice president, kept contemporaneous notes. we asked if the committee knew that, she said no. >> -- when subpoenaed by the justice department, by the grand jury, and order to buy the d.c. circuit, they couldn't turn it down. >> can i ask one quick question,

just got what was so clear about violating the sort of bail conditions. if you try and pressure witnesses, if you try and temper those charles and any white, mr. trump, that could change the conditions on which you are being released. she sounded really serious in that's warning. we know trump is not a master of self restraint. do you think it's a real threat for him? >> i think it will depend on how much work the justice department is -- it's going to be up to the justice department to enforce that kind of order, bring any alleged violations to her attention. it will be interesting to see how far they will let him go on with the stuff. it's interesting today, they were very clear. do not contact witnesses about this case. last time around, they didn't bring it up, the judge did. this time, they affirmatively brought it up. >> well, we'll see i guess. laura jarrett, thank you for making time for me tonight. ari, please stay around -- >> you got it.

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jack smith and donald trump's legal teams are due back in court in the election cases at the end of this month. august 28th, ten a.m.. at that hearing, maybe the most important decision in this trial will be made. when will the trial take place and how long will it take? both sides have seven days from today to basically tell the court when they think the trial should take place, and how long they think that might need to make the case. we know which exemestane ones a speedy trial, but as far as trump's defense team, here's a preview of his stance on fox news this evening. >> today in court, which was a terribly sad day, they're attacking other parts of the constitution, because they want to take president trump to trial in a few months. they want to deny him his sixth amendment right to counsel, to give me and my co-counsel, todd blanche, an opportunity to prepare.

they want to deny president trump his due process rights to look at documents, to get witnesses to use our subpoena paola. they want to deny all of him those rights in a rush to judgment for one political purpose. that is to uphold the biden administration. why the rush on this case? do they feel this a problem in the other cases that are being orchestrated and they need to bring this case to trial in a couple of months in this venue? what does that tell you? >> what does that tell me? that tells me that team trump is shooting for a significant delay. joining me now is tim parlatore, a former lawyer for donald trump, mr. parlatore, thanks so much for being here tonight. let me just first get your thoughts. how much stock -- i mean, how optimistic are you, i should, say that the judge in this case is going to be receptive to the argument the trump's legal team is making

here that it's a denial of due process of this as speedy trial? >> i think that a lot of what you said there was more designed for the viewing public, not necessarily for the judge. really when you look at how federal criminal cases or schedule, to the idea it's going to be a couple of months is just not practical. in order for this case to go that quickly, essentially the defense would have to wave motions, you would have to waive certain defenses. there is a lot of significant issues in this case. we had litigated some pretty significant issues in the grand jury phase, related to privilege, executive privilege, things like that. a lot of those will have to be revisited here. this is a lot of discover they're going to go through. it is cover in this case i think is going to be far greater than that, which is the mar-a-lago case. obviously, without qualification issues. and so the idea that this thing would go to trial and under 15

months, setting aside any election, is just not practical from a standpoint of how federal criminal cases are tried. >> that's interesting, because there's been a lot of attempted tea leaf reading about when judge chutkan might actually schedule this. you are saying, reasonably it's 15 months. would you be -- i mean, how surprised would you be if it was considerably earlier than that? and by the way, whatever news of appeals exists if the judge does decide to do this, let's cite within this calendar year? does the trump team have any recourse if that ends up being the case? >> the ability to go to the appellate court in the middle of a case is pretty limited. but really, all they have to do is file motions. once you file motions, then they have to sit out motion schedule. the d.c. rose, sit at what those normal timelines are. and then you have to have oral

arguments and everything. it is one of those things that will just nationally -- naturally push the case count. plus i always believe, you don't want to ask for such a long influx and thickening. you want to get the discovery, go through, start to litigate the case. that white when you go back to the judge and say we need more time, you can show the judge this is how much discovery we have. this is how far we've gotten into it. these are the problems we've had. the government not just going to give you all the discovery, there is going to be discovery issues where he wants him to get over the instep withheld. and then you can go to the judge with something solid and say we need more time by of all these things. so it's very difficult for a judge to say go anyway, because it's something that gets reversed. >> obviously it's a work in progress, the defense is a work in progress. one of the main lines of counter argument that we've heard floated in recent days by john lauro, the president's defense attorney, one of two, this notion that he was something relying on the advice of his counsel.

in this case, one specific lawyer and particular, john eastman. i wonder if the trump team doesn't use that argument, to set aside its merits for one minute, does that not mean that donald trump has to take the stand? >> no, not necessarily. it looked at this can be done through cross-examination, through presentation of other witnesses. because ultimately, yes if you're presenting advice of counsel defense, that does bring an affirmative defense where you have to put on evidence. what you can't through calling john eastman, theoretically. but i would instead look at it from the perspective of the council, special counsel has to show beyond every is nibbled out he acted with corrupt intent. and if you instead use that element to undermine his knowledge that there was no fraud in the election by broken in all the evidence all three

things you are presented by rudy giuliani, by john aced men, by all these other people, that is a fit around to do it. and it's not quite as narrow -- it's a little bit broader. >> it's interesting, the person who could probably articulate the best defense, or at least the most fulsome defense in this, is of course the former president. but it doesn't sound like the defense team wants to put him on the stand. do you think it's a good idea to put donald trump on the stand? >> that would be a decision for him. i will tell you and my experience, i hardly ever want to put my client on the stand, no matter what type of case it is. that's something you only do very or circumstances and after i personally cross-examined that client significantly, and i think the government would do that to withstand by cross examination -- before i think about exposing

them to that government. >> especially if the client is donald trump. will table that for. now >> i can see problems with. that >> yeah. it sounds like bill barr does not think the president should be on the stand under any circumstances, and i'm reading between the lines. maybe you agree with that. >> i think that's probably a good scrimmage it to keep him off the stand. >> let me ask you about a parallel federal case, the mar-a-lago case. there is a lot of talk, people have been very generous sixth focused. there are some interesting movement and that case this week. yesterday, jack smith, special counsel, asked the judge in that case, aileen cannon, for a hearing to discuss whether the main defense attorney in that case, other than trump sputtering, stanley woodward is representing too many clients in that case. he represents eight people in the mar-a-lago case, including what not, at trump's named coconspirator, and then three witnesses who maybe called testify at trial in the case. he used to represent --

trophy, a star witness at this point. do you think stan woodward has too many clients and maybe convicted here? >> that is a relatively extended motion in multi defendant cases, and the second circuit we call it a -- motion. it's not necessarily always used to conflict and attorney out, but rather to make sure that if there are conflicts, that the defendant fully understands those conflicts, and no one will wave them. for example, what will be asked by the federal judge, do you understand that any confidential information that mr. woodward got from mr. to faris, he will not be able to use that to cross examine him. and to you still want to be represented by somebody who is essentially handcuffed from to win that portion of the cross-examination? and then it will be up to walt to make the decision on that. so the more people you

represent, the more risks there are of conflicts like that. but ultimately, there was some kind of thing the church can go through and decide his it's something that's wave-able, and up to the defendant, do you want to wave it? >> what would you do? >> if i were who? >> if you were walt nauta? it depends, right? but if you were walt nauta, would you still want to be represented by stan woodward? >> curiously thing. while stan may not be able to cross examine himself, his local council can. as long as you have another attorney representing you who doesn't have the conflicts, and i've done this in cases before, we had one conflicted lawyer, when that witness gets up on the stand, that laura goes and sits behind. so that is something that certainly it will be up to walled as to how he believes

and trusts stand. i think he probably would be willing to waive that conflicts to keep stand on and have somebody else conduct certain portions of the trial. >> especially if mr. woodward's legal bills are still being paid for by mr. trump. will table that for another discussion. i've got to ask you one last one. and reading this and document, we know who five of the coconspirators our. do you have a theory on who coconspirator six is in the january 6th indictment? >> i've heard a couple of theories. >> do you embrace any of them? >> i don't want to put all my money on one of them. but i would say between mike -- and -- epstein, they seem to be the most likely. i would put money a bit more on mike roman because it seems, as

a political consultant. the other one is identified as a lawyer. and boris does have a loss to practice law. >> so boris's cv is the only thing keeping my tournament from being your number one candidate. i deeply appreciate your time and thoughts tonight, thanks for joining me. >> thank you very much. >> still ahead trump's 2024 rivals are reacting to today's historic arraignment, and what is waiting for mr. trump down in georgia? >> unless someone tells me differently, we are following our normal practices. it doesn't matter your status, we have mugshot ready for you. >> we have mugshots ready for you. that is all coming up, stay with us. ta with us. when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy.

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analysis on this historic arraignment day with msnbc's own ari melber. already, i was just speaking with the former defense lawyer, tim parlatore, an interesting things he talked, about the thing that really struck me was this notion, he believes the trial, it's a sort of, it's without debate, in his eyes, that a federal trial will take much longer than i think most of the public believes it will. he pegged it at 15 months from now, and that that was a

reasonable timeline for this trial to begin. do you think that is wishful thinking on the part of some of the somebody used to be part of trump's defense team? or is there some accuracy there? >> yes, i think it's wishful thinking, and a stretch, and i don't think he's going to be able to get the judge, who's the only person that matters, to agree. i thought it was a newsworthy interview on a big night like this. >> thanks. >> you're welcome. and you raise the points, we heard that perspective. that's interesting. that said, i don't think everything that he claimed tracks. i was a bit reminded of in wedding crashers, where the guy is giving a toast, and it's going left, that would be trump, and then tim parlatore's vince vaughn and grabs the mic and says i think what he's trying to say is love is beautiful. >> right. >> love endures. that's not what that guy is saying. >> only instead of vince vaughn it's tim parlatore. >> so tim i take that is a litigation compliment because he's doing better than the defendant. that's what trump is today, the defendant.

i think we heard from parlatore is this vince vaughn, warm, polished, almost nothing to see here mood. there's a lot to see here because there's damning evidence, and there's a lot to see here soon because, as we reported today in tonight, the presiding judge, who matters, told the magistrate, hit him back in the end of the month and i'm ready to go figure of the trial date. if they raise good arguments that might get extra months. i don't think extra years. >> 15 months? >> a year and a half? i don't think so. we'll see. >> there's another bit were asked to whether donald trump could and should take the stand. do we have that piece of sound in the control room? let's take a listen to that. >> do you think it's a good idea to put on trump on the stand? >> that would be the decision for them. i will tell you that in my experience i hardly ever want to put my client on the stand no matter what type of case it is. that's something you only do in very rare circumstances. and after i have personally

cross-examined that clients significantly and it's significantly harder than what i think the government will do to make sure that they withstand my cross-examination before even thinking about exposing them to the government. >> yeah. and then i said, i brought up the case that bill barr said don trump should never take the stand in his own defense. it seems difficult to me, not a person with a law degree, for trump to make this for his defense team to make the case that he was simply relying on the council of john eastman when he went through with all the suggested plans for overturning the election. it's hard to make that case without trump himself taking the stand. parlatore threw cold water on that and said you can do it but it seems like a tough defense without principle. >> criminal defendants very rarely take the stand. when they do it in extreme circumstances. when the trial has gone so left that they think they are losing, there have been murder trials where the evidence is so strong that they are saying, if

nothing changes, we're losing, and they put him or her on the stand and try to get the jury to empathize. it's really considered a hail mary. every so often there is someone who is somehow so likable in the community that they put them on the stand. we have seen that. those are exceptions. i don't think we can say this would happen to trump. as to the advice of counsel defense, it is probably weaker when the counsel in question have all been named as coconspirators by the government. they are unindicted at this point, and that's a procedural matter. the government, when they say that, the governor government's, saying jack smith, on tuesday, that we have the goods on all of these people. that's not a small matter. one of them recently were to the justice department, great jeffrey clark. and so, a, that strengthens the government case, and be, if your ace in the hole is they told me to do it, yeah, it would help to have the person, the defendants say that i don't think he's in any position to say that on the stand. >> also he's probably just a terribly unreliable witness, to

say nothing of everything else. mary melbourne, thank you my friend. playing troubled triple duty this evening. appreciate your time, buddy. when we come back, hot indictment summer. not yet over. an investigation in georgia is heating up, and one prosecutor says she is ready to go. and ready to decide of donald trump is going to face a fourth set of charges. >> i took a oath. the oath requires when i follow the law that is someone broke the law in fulton county, georgia, i have a duty to prosecute. that's exactly what i plan to do. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ [sneeze] (♪♪)

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opportunity. and the former president is not the only one to recognize this. former vice president mike pence, likely the star witness in his case, he also has some new indictment swag for sale. his campaign is selling t-shirts that read, to honest, which is a reference to the indictments allegations that trump berated pence for his lawful malice in and around january six and complaining that pence was too honest. so yes, protect the constitution, but also make it a crew neck. other 2024 republican presidential candidates have not ablaze in their opinions about the indictment on to mike's and sweatshirts. they are apparently still work shopping their positions. vivek ramaswamy is taking aim at the justice department and calling on the doj to tell the truth about trump's prosecutions. >> is this a politicized persecution through prosecution? i certainly believe it is. >> south carolina senator tim scott is concerned about hunter biden tweeting that there are

two different tracks of justice, one from political opponents in another for the son of a current president. former south carolina governor nikki haley says she would like to just move on. >> i didn't rush out with a statement yesterday on trump's indictment for one simple reason. like most americans, i am tired of commenting on every trump drama. i lost track of whether this indictment is the third, fourth, or the fifth. >> she lost track. and maybe that's because governor halle has not discovered mr. trump's secret sauce here. for indictments, after all, intrusion reelection, and five, five indictments? well that could take you to the moon. we have new intel about what we might see after potential indictment number four. that is a trump mugshot. that is coming up next. stay with us. xt stay with us everyday products, designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that- i need a breakthrough card. like ours!

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has been arraigned on 78 criminal charges across three different cases. but there is still sort of unbelievably a fourth shoe that may drop in fulton county, georgia. the district attorney there, fani willis, so she is ready to announce her charging decisions and nothing is going to get in her way of doing that. >> have you read it? >> i have read, it yes. >> it didn't anything to surprise? you >> know. >> were you coordinated with special counsel's office at all? >> i'm not gonna comment on our investigation at this time. >> how much overlap is there on what you're planning to do and what's in the special counsel's

investigation or indictment? >> obviously we're concentrating on georgia and things that impact to georgia. >> does it have any bearing on your investigation at all? >> i'm not sure i understand the question. >> does it affect what you're planning to do? >> now. >> okay. >> now, willis has said she will announce any potential indictment before september 1st, and to that in her office has announced that some roads will be closed around the courthouse beginning august 7th. joining me now is greg bluestein, political reporter for the atlanta journal-constitution. greg saucy 16 fake electors gather between behind closed doors on december 14th 2020, the day the official electors were casting the official voter votes for president. it alleges the republican electors gathered behind that door were casting fraudulent ballots for donald trump at trump's direction. and that december 14th meeting has peaked the d.a. willis's

interest as well. greg, thanks for being here. another journalist, i believe, has been subpoenaed by the d.a. to talk about that moment and december 14th. i would love to know, when you saw that happening, what did you think was going on behind that door? >> i was completely surprised, because i had actually written a story about the elector meetings in georgia because of course it's a major deal in georgia that joe biden was about to be formally elected by georgia electors, democratic electors, in atlanta. i called some republican electors sitting case. i caught window the right be something going on. several of them said on the record there is no such meeting. so when i was on my way walking up the capital steps on the second floor up to the state senate chambers, i was shocked to see some familiar republican faces. when i went up to that door, door to 16 in the second floor of the state capital, not on the door and said what's going on in here, one of the gop officials, one of the fake electors said, we're just having an educators meeting, and kicked me out.

i had to go upstairs. it was not a few minutes later that i realized what they were doing. they were actually holding a fake electors meeting. >> the secrecy, and to be honest, the lies that they told you about the subject of this meeting, what was actually going to pass behind that door, really doesn't, i mean, what do you make of that reality, the two witnessed and the contention that these fake electors thought they were doing everything above board, that they didn't really realize they were part of any potentially criminal pop lot? >> now the narrative is there being transparent and open. we know at the time they were doing anything about that. they had not told us in the media. it wasn't like there was a press release saying there were gonna be meeting at noon on that december day. instead, we know from the january six commission that they had actually, the trump staffers send emails to the fake electors asking them to act in complete secrecy. even shielded from georgia state troopers who were reporting the governor brian kemp.

they didn't want the governor knowing about it. >> greg, i have to say, there is so much renewed interest in exactly what was happening with the fake electors, given the indictment handed down earlier this week. just the breadth of the plot, the nefarious nature and the fact that this is the bedrock of the case against trump is what these fake electors did. we know that there is some overlap between the federal case that jack smith has put together what we were hearing in fulton county from d.a. willis's office. what is the expectation about when that indictment may come out? we have reporting that some of the roads around the courthouse will be closed august 7th. can you give us insight? what are you hearing? >> first you heard from the d.a. herself just saying the separate track, yes there is still overlap between the federal case in which he is looking at. she is also, both federal investigators and her investigations both contacted governor kemp and secretary of state brad raffensperger. we are expecting within weeks

this investigation to reach a conclusion. all signs, of course, pointed on trump indictment. we are expecting. yes i'm not expecting within the next few days, but really within the next two weeks. the dea has said herself, on the record, that we will have a decision before labor day, before september 1st. >> greg, is there any sense of trepidation about the overlap between the federal case in the state case here? because there is certainly a lot of witnesses in common. traditionally the federal criminal cases supersede, if you will, a state case. do you sense that there is going to be any deference to that tradition when it comes to d.a. willis? >> when the dea was asked about this a couple of days ago, she joked jack smith wouldn't even recognize her. she wondered whether he would even be in able to pronounce her name right. she's gonna proceed on her own track. there is no overseer who gets to determine the guidelines for what cases go when. i'm not sure how the court scheduling could conflict with

a federal case and a georgia case. we know that there will be all sorts of pretrial litigation anyway. fani willis has said over and over again she is determined to move forward. she is conducting her own independent investigation separate from the defense. >> i was speaking with tish james a month ago and she said very plainly, if the federal case comes out in august, i will adjourn. alvin bragg will adjourn. fani willis. we will adjourn or cases in deference to the federal case. it doesn't sound like that got to be a willis's desk. is that accurate? >> yeah, we asked her aides around that same time of that was actually the case, because it looked like the georgia case would be indefinitely delayed. we were given the signal no, they're gonna move forward. remember, this has been going on for years now. a special grand jury met for months. i don't think her timeline is going to be affected by anyone else's timeline. >> it's going to be really interesting to see how these

indictments intersect with one another and overlap. greg bluestein from the atlanta journal-constitution, witness to the fake electors meeting on december 14th of 2020, a man with much knowledge. thank you for your time, sir. >> thank you. >> that is our show for this evening. now it is time for the last word, with lawrence o'donnell, good evening lawrence. , with>> good evening, alex, ann this extraordinary day and night, andrew weissmann is going to join me and he's going to join me for the full hour. he has been granted taking naps during commercial breaks. so the commercial breaks, i just want to say this to the audience, if the commercial breaks feel longer than usual, it's because we're trying to wake andrew weissmann up. >> he got an absolute into his contract. i haven't gotten that yet. i think i have to be on air for another year before they will give me that. >> you've gotta start a a lot earlier, like andrew did. >> i'll be watching and waiting in the nap break.