tonight on "the reidout" -- >> this is a very sad day for america. this was never supposed to happen in america. >> lock her up. lock her up. lock her up. lock her up. lock her up. >> we're literally trying to imprison political opponents. we're better than this. >> she should be imprisoned. let me tell you. she should be in prison. >> threatening me with 400 years in prison for possessing my own presidential papers. >> it's just awfully good that

someone with the temperament of donald trump is not in charge of the law in our country. >> because you would be in jail. >> after all those years of lock her up, trump and his rapidly shrinking inner circle don't see the hypocrisy of whining about the possibility of trump going to prison. as his lawyers test out long shot defenses for the serious charges he faces. and vindication is complete in tennessee. the two expelled state reps win special elections to keep their seats. one of them, justin j. pearson, joins me tonight. we begin tonight with one of the most striking aspects of donald trump's third arraignment yesterday. besides the fact that a former president of the united states has been arraigned for crimes three times. and it is that all of his frenzied truth social posts and for all of his republican speechifying and about political

prosecution, the man who showed up in a washington courtroom on thursday was basically alone. none of his family came to support him, no melania, no ivanka, jared, dawn jr., or eric. and they can't even blame the location because they didn't show up for his florida or new york arraignments either, and technically, they live or have lived in both places. besides his lawyers and staff, including walt nauta, his valet, and florida co-defendant, trump had nobody. it's a sharp contrast to the man who stalked the red carpets and celebrity parties of new york decades ago. back in his celebrity real estate developer days in the '80s and '90s. his proximity to fame expanded furt during his run on nbc's "the apprentice" and the follow up hit show "the celebrity apprentice", we're talking rappers, athletes, journalists, tv stars all were friends of his or at least hung out with him. even bill and hillary clinton attended his wedding to melania in 2005.

trump had an enormous circle of people who wanted to be around him. all of that changed, of course, had he got involved in politics. his reputation took a hit soon after he embraced the racist idea of birtherism and more so after he called mexicaned rapists and of course, the "access hollywood" tape, but even after all that, he had high profile supporters including military generals and prominent businessmen who clamored to join his administration. even mitt romney begged to get on board. remember that humiliating dinner they had together. but donald trump drove most of them away too, thanks in no small part to the attempted coup where his supporters beat police officers with flag poles and threatened the lives of officials. allen weisselberg and michael cohen would end up in jail because of trump, and after the election, even his flunkies at fox were pretty much over him. texting about how much they hate

him passionately. many of his most servile allies had their reputations ruined like rudy giuliani, who was once called america's mayor, he's become a laughingstock because of the bogus election fraud claims he made at trump's behest. plus his lewd behavior and the hair dye running down the face moment. and now, as trump is facing perhaps the worst moment of his life, many of those people are gone. what was once known as trump world has turned into a bucket of c-list lawyers and a handful of co-conspirators. the only celebrity who wants to be seen with him are the ones who said there are good things about hitler. even as embarrassing maga cronies in congress, marjorie greene and lauren boebert, privately, most of them probably can't stand him either. even as his election interference case highlights how dangerous this man is for democracy, it also highlights his weakness, including the fact he can't even get people to show

up for him anymore. despite calling for civil disobedience on his rather sad social platform, at all three of his arraignments, there were some maga faithful showing their support, but even more protesting against him. nothing like the big crowds he was once able to summon to his rallies and insurrections. probably because so many of them are in jail. so much for a revolution. these days, trump is almost completely isolated. joining me now is tom nichols, staff writer at the atlantic, and barbara res, former vice president at the trump organization. barbara, i want to start with you because you were there during the period when trump was like famous, famous, right? when he had celebrities around him and the clintons were at his wedding. how do you think he's reacting to the fact that now the only people who love and adore him are voters he probably wouldn't want near him at mar-a-lago, and

the sycophants at fox and in congress. >> well, there's still people i think that he can do something for them. why does anyone have anything to do with him? but he's very rich and he makes promises and he delivers sometimes. and as far as the republicans, disgusting people, mcconnell who condemned him after january 6th and now he's kissing his back side as well. there's other reasons. all these people are liars. you cannot possibly respect this man. you cannot possibly. no one can. his followers, yeah, because they -- he taught them it was okay to be racist, sexist, xenophobic, so they love him. and he let them change the laws and blah blah blah.

>> are you surprised that melania didn't show up for any of the three hearings or that, you know, ivanka trump, i mean, he gave her and jared so much power during his administration, none of the three of them have been there for him at his arraignments. does it surprise you? >> no, no. i think that melania was never part of the presidency, and everyone knows that she kept her child away from d.c. until they renegotiated their agreement. but at this point in time, after what went on, why should she? there's absolutely no reason for her to want anything to do with him or to support him unless she's forced to. he cheated on her and all that other stuff. ivanka, she wants to get the hell away from him. she's in this herself pretty deep. distancing herself is probably the best thing she could do. >> tom, let me bring you in here. you have written a great piece,

i highly recommend people reading for the atlantic, and you talk about the fact, let me read a little bit of you to you. you saw this is a case, jack smith has sounded the call, but it's voters who must answer if they wish to preserve american democracy. barbara made the case pretty soundly that's never going to happen because donald trump has given so many permissions to people who kind of revel in the bad behavior, that they feel like i guess he as their proxy lets them indulge in. it doesn't seem likely to me that anyone who likes him will like him less because he is facing 78 counts of criminal indictment. >> they like him more. they think that that is somehow the establishment indicting him for crimes that amount to over 600 years in jail is proof that he's doing everything they wanted him to do, by, you know,

hating the same people they hate. the only hope, i think, is that i have often wondered if there's going to be some kind of hive collapse or something where there's this kind of spreading disillusionment with him, because the one thing that becomes clear over and over again is that he's not fighting for them. that he doesn't care about any of these people. he's in it for himself. you know, we have all tried to say this to friends and relatives and neighbors and coworkers, and they just don't believe it. but you know, maybe if they see a trial, which i think ought to be televised, they might finally see it. but no, there are going to be millions of people who are going to vote for donald trump, no matter what he does. and the rest of us, i think, have to take that very seriously, because there's a fundamental unseriousness with the people who just think it's all, you know, a hoot that he's so offensive and vulgar and that he tried to overthrow the

government. but the rest of us really have to put aside our differences and say, the one thing we have to do is get through 2024 without donald trump getting anywhere near power again. >> to stay with you for a moment. i know you have expertise in this area. you know, robert, one of our senior producers. made a point earlier today and i think it's true, when republicans try to make donald trump sound like he's being persecuted politically, you know, one thinks of alexei navalny, who is literally being persecuted politically in russia, and who is facing another 19 years in prison and in apparently one of the wus gulags in russia. literally for opposing the autocrat leader of russia. that is actual political persecution. i think of the people who went up in the congo, that's political persecution. you talk about unseriousness. i can't think of anything more

unserious than comparing donald trump to someone like that. >> yeah, donald trump, you know, gets arraigned and he's treated politely and gently and he gets back on his jet with his big name on the side, and he goes and gives a press conference and talks about how miserable all of this is. where navalny, you know, is basically surviving multiple attempts to kill him. the russians, by the way, the russian regime is having a big laugh out of this because they're talking about trump as if, you know, the russians are lamenting how much donald trump has been persecuted by the american government. because they're expert trolls at this stuff. they're putting navalny in prison, trying to put him in prison for the rest of his life or kill him, one of the two, and instead, they're kind of winking at the camera and saying, but isn't it terrible what's happening to donald trump? it's really a horrifying thing. i think more americans ought to

appreciate that. >> and barbara, what do you make of the irony here? donald trump literally ran in 2016 on the theme of lock her up. on the theme that he would like to become president and lock up hillary clinton. and even said to her face, i'll put you in prison. and now his new theme is he would like to lock up joe biden and his son. and yet, you have republicans, including some folks at the other network, saying how dare, you know, the justice department pursue this man for crimes? >> well, i think it's sort of going back to what i said. he's a projector. you know, he does. i saw him do that 30 years ago, accusing people of doing things he does, which they did not do. so it's, you know, he's being persecuted now. meanwhile, he's not being persecuted at all. he's not innocent at all in that he convinces people, i'm so

innocent, because they want to hear it. i think they really want to believe in this guy because he lets them do all these terrible things. and anyone who has lived in this country from 2016 must have noticed that in the early months and continuing after trump's presidency, lawlessness grew. racism grew. sexism grew. because trump gave permission. >> real quick, before i go back to tom, to stay with you for a moment, barbara. donald trump is now facing judges who are brown and black folks in a city, washington, d.c., where the jury pool is going to look, you know, a lot more diverse than what he would like. they're demanding to move the trial to west virginia because he's like i can't get a free trial unless it's all maga.

what do you make of the irony that he now faces the people he literally hates and they have some jurisdiction over them? >> it is ironic. i hope that they remain true to their values because so many people have known how bad he is and just said what the hell. for instance, anti-semitism, which i saw right out in the open. there are many, many, many jewish people who will support him. >> go ahead. >> even black people, like the guy, the football player. has he no self-pride? he's taking the endorsement of a racist, a really, really racist guy. people are strange. >> yeah, irony is -- has died. tom, i do want to ask you, donald trump was admonished by the judge in this case, do not try to intimidate witnesses or

jurors. within 24 hours, he's already up on his truth social saying the following, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. he could mean that about anyone. we don't know who he's talking about, but it sure does sound to me like he's not listening to the judge. >> yeah, i mean, imagine if john gotti had said it. you know, how prosecutors probably would have related to that. this is part of the way trump, you know, edges around or trampled on the norms. you know, when a judge says don't do this, he's like a little boy who says, well, what if i do it this way? is it still the wrong way? and that's been part of the whole right wing defense of donald trump. going back to something you brought up a moment ago, where people say, how dare you talk about jailing, you know, a former president. these were the same people that

didn't flinch during the "lock them up" days and what they're counting on, and i hope people are not intimidated by it, they're counting on everyone else's sense of propriety and civility. your first instinct, gosh, i didn't mean to be insulting. no, this man is accused of multiple crimes. he -- whether he is criminally guilty, he did the things he's accused of. which makes him unfit to be president, and it makes supporting him, you know, a failure of civic character. we shouldn't hesitate to say it, no matter how many times people clutch their pearls and say how dare you. that's their strategy and we shouldn't fall for it. >> i cannot disagree with a word you have said. tom and barbara, thank you. up next on "the reidout," it sure sounds like trump's attorneys are still trying to figure out a defense strategy. so far the best they can come up with is, at least he didn't send

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plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. comcast business, powering possibilities. . so admittedly, i'm not a lawyer, but something tells me this is not what a defendant wants his lawyer to be saying on the tv. >> president trump wanted to get to the truth. he desperately wanted to get to what happened during the 2020

cycle. he did it in the courtroom. he did it in lobbying legislatures. that's all first amendment. and then at the end, he asked mr. pence to pause the voting for ten days, allow the state legislatures to weigh in. and then they could make a determination to audit or re audit or recertify. what he didn't do is send in the tanks, tell mr. pence don't go to capitol hill or do anything that would obstruct the due process of government. >> so what you're saying is basically he did it? correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the intense pressure he was putting on his environment to break the law literally part of one of the charges in his latest indictment, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding? apparently it's all good because at least he didn't send in the tanks. except that is precisely what coconspirator number four was ready to do. there had not been outcome

determinative fraud in the election and if the defendant remained in office nonetheless, there would be riots in every major city in the united states. conspirator number four, jeffrey clark, the man trump wanted to name as the new attorney general, responded, quote, well, deputy white house counsel, that's why there's an insurrection act. joining me now is maya wiley, president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights, and sunia dianando. thank you both for being here. welcome to the show, you are at a disadvantage, you're not here at the table. so i'm going to let you go first here. is that a good defense? saying he did it, but at least he didn't send in tanks to shoot people? >> joy, thanks for having me. the first thing i thought of when i saw that clip now is how much i can't wait to see the rebuttal the federal prosecutor

in the courtroom will give to these types of arguments that he just put forth. you're exactly right. you can't say that i did all of this unlawful conduct, but except i didn't send in these tanks. i think what's even more important is he's asking vice president pence to pause the january 6th joint session that day is in itself a crime. so it seems that he hasn't grasped exactly what john eastman's theory was. it was both to delay the proceeding and reject the votes. both of which were unlawful and exactly the conduct of the charged count. >> yeah, and you know, maya, the other piece he snuck in there is this first amendment idea. that actually is starting to become on fox, that's what they're doing all day, 24 hours a day, and saying free speech. i'm not a lawyer, again, but this to me seems like an argument that if i said for instance, whitney houston was my

cousin, and when she passed she was going to leave me all her money. i can say that, free speech, but then if i like show up at the hearings where she's giving out her assets with some fake documents and a will that says, no, no, she was supposed to give me all my money and i walk away with her money, that's fraud. free speech doesn't protect me if i actually submit a certificate that's a lie and try to commit fraud. that's what he did. >> yeah. >> and i pass law school right here. >> honorary degree. no, i mean, first of all, look, admission. admission that i did an act which was to try to interrupt vote counting, i want to make clear to listeners, that act is not just the conspiracy to obstruct a congressional proceeding. that's exactly also what the civil rights count goes to. because that law in the supreme court has said, you know, counting people's vote is just like putting the vote in the ballot box. so we shouldn't lose sight of what he just admitted to.

he was interrupting the count, and he also goes, you can have a free speech right to say i want the vote count blocked. but i don't take any act to block it, you might argue that that's first amendment covered free speech, but in this case, we have an indictment that has all the steps of acts including multiple times donald trump personally went to pence and asked him to do it. my favorite part of the indictment, my favorite part, because everybody keeps saying where is the evidence of donald trump's intent, just like mr. laurel tried to say. he was desperately trying to get at the facts, so desperately that every time someone said no, those aren't the facts, he ignored him. but my favorite part is the eastman part, when he is picking which methods he likes for mike pence to interrupt the vote. which he likes best.

it's out of his mouth and direct to asking for an act, making an act himself. so yeah. admission. >> and let me go back to you. the other piece of it is, they keep on trying to say he sincerely believed he won the election, and he just wanted to get the facts. except that that actually isn't true. here's cassidy hutchinson talking about a conversation that she had with donald trump and his chief of staff, mark meadows, and this is on december 11th, 2020. this is a month after the election, after texas lost this lawsuit they were filing. the texas a.g. filed a lawsuit trying to overturn the election in other states. here's the conversation as cassidy hutchinson related. >> so he had said something to the effect of, i don't want people to know we lost, mark. this is embarrassing. figure it out. we need to figure it out. i don't want people to know we lost. >> you all at the january 6th committee talked to her. presumably, she's going to end up on the stand and say that in

front of a jury. so it's going to be difficult to even maintain that, right? that he thought he won. because he didn't. >> i think there are multiple witnesses who will say there were statements that he made, sometimes just in passing, that the people recognized that he knew that he lost. that's one that you hear from ms. hutchinson. i'm sure if mark meadows is cooperating witness, if he takes the stand, he would have additional evidence to that. you also have in the indictment general milley's statement that we'll pass this on to the next guy. these statements, again, show his state of mind, that he knew he lost, and he was clinging on to stay in office. >> maya, let me ask you about this post. we asked tom nichols about it, but i want to ask you about it as well. if you go after me, i'm coming after you. again, we don't know who he means by you. however, this is what magistrate judge warned trump of literally and he said yes, i understand.

finally, sir, this is the judge, the magistrate judge talking. i want to remind you it is a crime to try to influence a juror or to threaten or attempt to bribe a witness or any other person who may have information about your case or to retaliate against anyone for providing information about your case to the prosecution or to otherwise obstruct the administration of justice. do you understand these warnings and consequences, sir? me doing my rachel maddow live reading here. dramatic reading. defendant, yes. could he be in violation of this judge's order by posting what he posted on his pretend twitter? >> well, so he certainly could. i think one of the questions will be what kind of facts and circumstances can a judge say, you just did that? because he was very broad. and i think he was broad intentionally. this is part of the difficulty, when you do obviously have free speech rights, but no, you do not have the rights to violate the law or judicial order that says don't tamper with

witnesses. it's like anything you want to make sure you have the right amount of proof to balance those two things. but certainly, you would start, and you remember, we had this with roger stone. >> yes. the judge's cross hairs. >> there's all these ways in which you can subtly try to send a signal that is very threatening, and as we go, donald trump has the capacity because of the types of folks including organized hate groups who pay attention to his feeds, and take action including violent threats, when he sends out a signal. it's almost like the opposite of the bat signal. but so we should be very concerned about that. and i would expect the judge to be paying close attention and to be giving warnings for anything that looks like that. >> i wonder at walt nauta being next to him, it's a different trial, but he's like his co-defendant in the trial, he's standing with him, being his valet in this case. that's weird too. but the free speech thing to me,

you can't get on a plane and say i'm about to hijack this plane. you're going to get arrested. free speech doesn't say you can say i'm going to hijack this plane. you're going to be arrested. there isn't unlimited free speech. >> like everything, it's the facts and the circumstances. it's not just whether if there are words occupant of your mouth, you can say whatever you want. facts and circumstances matter. >> i'm keeping these wonderful ladies, my guests are going to stay with me. we have so much more to sort out and we aunt to talk about all of the legal errors so far from donald trump appointed judge aileen cannon. and that's in the other trial that walt nauta, his friend that was in court with him, the only friend he had, apparently, is facing. type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone. in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events

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back with me are maya wiley and sumiya. i'm going to start with you, sumiya. let's talk about the venues. donald trump's d.c. venue, this is what "the new york times" wrote about the jury pool. even for people with no direct connection to the capitol, there are lingering memories of what happened in their city in the days and weeks after the attack. the humvees that suddenly appeared, the eight-foot tall fence erected around the capitol, the more than 20,000 heavily armed national guard troops who descended on the city which has a smaller footprint that sioux falls, south dakota. donald trump has argued he

cannot get a fair trial here, he and his allies. people like lindsey graham and ted cruz. what do you make of that argument, because they would like to move this to west virginia or somewhere wed and they said they can't get a fair trial in d.c. >> i think those issues have already been raised in the numerous january 6th trials that have been held at the d.c. courthouse. and they have failed. i do think that what happens during a jury selection process is key for people to understand, that there's a voir dire. both sides will have an opportunity to question potential jurors. there's a real interest for the government to have a fair and impartial jury just as much as donald trump wants a fair jury. so the questions will be, can you keep an open mind? so just because there's a presumption that someone voted for joe biden or is a person of color, would be more likely to see the evidence in a particular way, those questions would be posed to each individual juror by both sides and with a judge

present. that's how our system has happened for criminal trials around the country for decades. that's what we expect to see here. >> and i mean, the thing about it is donald trump i think is offended by the sort of circumstances of who, you know, some of the prosecutors are, of course, tish james and fani willis, people like alvin bragg, that plays into his emotions about it. you can't say that about jack smith, but he talked about d.c. being dirty and horrible and trying to malign d.c. it doesn't seem very effective in court. i think that even is a way to try to influence the jury pool. i think you're already biased. it doesn't seem like the venue would be changed in real life, right? >> it's very hard to imagine it would be changed. obviously, any defendant would like to be able to pick their own jury. and insure that there are people who might lean their way. that's part of the process to make sure jurors are fair. but i think the real point here, too, is it doesn't matter from their vantage point whether or not they'll win because delay is

part of the tactic. very clear that they will bring every motion they can. they have already stated in the mar-a-lago case that they wanted the case to happen after the election. and not before. and i think that would be true here as well. >> let's talk about the mar-a-lago case a little bit. besides the weirdness of walt nauta still being his val ate, still working for him. >> and his legal counsel being paid for by him. >> the judge in this case, here is the new information we have about judge aileen cannon. she had a problem in an earlier case in which she made multiple errors. she's a very young judge, and she the closed the jury selection for the trial to the defendant's family and to the general public, also neglected to swear in the perspective jury pool. you know, she's done some errors. she's not a very experienced judge. she also got reversed obviously in this case, about issues in the earlier versions of the case. but he loves that judge.

he appointed that judge. and he loves that jury pool because he's thinking, they're going to be republicans. is that always the case, though? you know, can you -- can you get an advantage from your location or is it just the evidence and the case no matter where you are? >> well, look, you know, i think anyone can find an example of a time when you had what we call jury nullification, which is all that means is the evidence was there and the jury just didn't want to go the direction of the evidence. they just didn't feel right to them and they wouldn't do it. that doesn't matter what the judge instructed. it's not that that has never happened but it's very rare. most people get into that courtroom, they feel the solemnity of it, the weight of it. it's a very different experience when you know you have somebody's life in your hands and that you are going to have a direct ability to impact that life. people take it very seriously. and i think we forget that people are human beings who do

that. so i think the real issue is whether or not, because we know that there are people in this country, sadly, who have themselves refused to accept facts that don't fit their world view. that's the kind of thing that has to be avoided because the danger is that -- and i'm not saying it's a majority of the people, i don't believe it is, but it's part of what the process is designed to weed out. >> this is, you know, with all of the other cases, i think it's arguable that the january 6th case is the most important. this is the one about our democracy and whether someone can steal the right to vote from seven states worth of voters and put in false fake certificates to try to take their votes and try to push the vice president to commit a crime. it feels like it is the most weighty. what do you think the stakes are in this case and in the outcome of this case from your point of view, having been part of that january 6th committee process? >> i think it's incredible to see this indictment with this level of detail, much of it reflects the large work that the

committee has done as well as the structure of the summer hearings. so that was really affirming and validating of the committee's work. i think what's important now is that this indictment allows donald trump to have his day in court and to test the evidence that we collected and gathered. and have that go in front of the american people in a different way and presented in a different manner than our hearings did and our report did. so it is incredibly -- >> one of the sort of fun facts of it is how angry donald trump reportedly was per cnn's reporting that he was called mr. trump instead of president trump multiple times, like dozens of times by the judge and even a couple times by hiown lawyer. that's the proof that our system actually works. after you're president, baby, you're just mr. whoever. you're not president whoever for the rest of your life. thank you both very much. coming up, two members of the tennessee three expelled from the legislature for protesting gun violence are

celebrating after winning back their seats. one of them, state representative justin j. pearson, joins me next. ♪♪ when you have chronic kidney disease... there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. if you have chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life. ♪ farxiga ♪ and farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. farxiga can help you keep living life. ask your doctor for farxiga for chronic kidney disease.

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into more. is the annoyance that donald trump had about his, i guess he wanted to be called president while he was in this hearing. he was not. he was just called mr. trump. and i'll start with you. he was apparently annoyed that is the way he was referred to. you're a former prosecutor. people don't get those kind of honorifics in court. isn't that the way it works? >> it's a humbling moment for people, naupt just donald trump but other ceos who have been tried and other defendants who feel that they have this stature, and then when you walk into the courtroom, it's a humbling moment where you are a defendant. and it goes to show that no one is above the law, and everyone should be treated equally. >> and maya, in your current role as a civil rights leader, that is the issue, right?

we have this sense as americans that the system is so unequal. and that it is so biased in favor of the wealthy and the powerful. and donald trump is both. he's not a real billionaire, but he is really, really rich. and so the fact that he has to face the criminal justice system in the same way as an ordinary person, i actually think makes me feel better about the system. and it makes him mad, but it actually makes me glad. your thoughts. >> yeah. but i will also add, you know, he still has a lot of privileges, a lot of other defendants wouldn't get. >> no mogshot. >> no mugshot, no perp walk. frankly, he should be glad he's being called mr. trump and just defendant. because he's more humanized by being called mr. trump. it's not as if he's being treated with any disrespect. i think that's important to note because what we have seen as a tactic in terms of the public conversation, both from his attorneys and supporters, would argue he is being victimized when really, the most important

thing for every american to understand is no, he's being treated in the way that any person should be treated, which is being treated and getting a fair opportunity to defend himself. and he has the resources to do it. like a year or two to walk around and go home after committing a crime. i thought they'd about the fact that he went through this engraved they'll with the committee. the people who bought into the capital and took dumps in the capital and be a police officers, for the most part, went to their homes, back to their hotels casually after livestreaming their crimes. it took a year to be prosecuted. for trump, it took two and a half years. you had a whole, like the summer television special where you put all your evidence out. most defendants who commit such serious crime did not it two

and a half years and a whole congressional hearing before they were actually charged. in a way, donald trump has been treated better than anyone else would. >> sure, there are so many cases that take years to investigate. during that time, defendants are free until they are charged. yes, it's two and a half years since the actual events, but i think during that time, the preview, the summer of evidence, as you mentioned, he should have been on notice that this day was coming. >> he should've, and yet he was not. i think the other piece of it is, maya, for the right to a speedy trial, the right for a fair trial, it's the people versus donald trump. the people also have rights. you talk about this idea of delay. that sounds like to me trying to arm right the people whose votes he tried to steal. do you think that this will be a fair trial both for trump who has a right to it and for the

people that must be televised? >> i can't help but draw watkins person. we have people, many people, mostly black and brown, sitting on rutgers island for sometimes two or three years because they cannot afford bail. some of them, many attempts nonviolent offenses that they're charged with but not convicted of and wait a very long time to see a judge, so i just want to say the, to your point about speedy trial, lots of people it was of a speedy trial. when you are a defendant, and you have strong facts in your favor, you do want to get there as quickly as you can to clear your name. to your point about the states, i think it is a particularly interesting point about the delay. to me, the point about the delay is what happens if it was delayed until after the elections?

the people who have a right to determine who leads them they're not had the benefit of seeing for themselves at the full facts, and that is also televise. this is one where it is very much our democracy at stake. the stakes are much, much higher than criminal trials, where people have said languished and the system. it's important. >> i think the country benefited from you all not just putting out a report, and the investigative results being televised. even if we did some interpretation, rachel maddow and all of us got together to try to broadcast it for people who did not see it. the fact that -- people who like fox, people who like newsmax, anyone could see it. i think it was important to the public. what do you make at the idea of a 12 pfizer trial? how important do you think that would be? >> so i struggle with the idea of a televised trial.

i think that, yes, the congressional investigation, we did have the hearings, put out an eight-page report. we also released all the deposition transcripts which is key in being transparent. i think the worry for a televised trial is that there is a pressure to promote. it's telling that john moreau requested that the courtroom, that the child be televised. there is almost an indication that this would come into a circus, with trump asking it to be in the public arena. i think relying on journalistic yourself to tell us what occurred in the day is a better in terms of being transparent. >> i would say that i love that you say that, and i appreciate that, but my concern is that the people at fox are going to interpret, and they are not going to tell their viewers necessarily what happened,

because they did not when it came to the election. i worry that they would tell them something that did not happen. we'll see what happens. maya wiley and soviet zion, thank you so much for staying with this extra overtime for the segment. the segment. ♪♪ open talenti and raise the jar to gelato made from scratch. raise the jar to flavors from the world's finest ingredients. and now, from jars to bars. new talenti gelato and sorbetto mini bars. ♪♪ trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪ start a new day with trelegy.

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>> you know what time it is, it is time to play -- who won the week? we know it's not donald trump. let's play the video tape.

>> the day on her 103rd birthday, we got justice. her legacy is in good hands. our families are standing together and solidarity to push forward making sure any other never dies, such as -- >> the family of51 bid to cancer and had her stolen, her family got an incredible settlement. justice for henrietta. all in with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on all in -- >> when i saw him coming out of the car is a, day i saw a scared puppy. he knows the truth that he lost the election and now, he has to face the music. >> the former president finally charged for plotting to overthrow democracy. tonight, the people who let it get this far hoping a finish the job. and out and ald