would help you that. >> yeah. yeah. i think that project, sort of institutional fortification, which is sort of, in many ways, a product -- the project writ large of the biden administration, i agree with that quite a bit. stuart stevens, neal katyal, thank you gentlemen both. appreciate it. that is "all in" for this week. "alex wagner tonight" starts right now. good, evening alex. >> this feels like it has been a week of institutional fortification, doesn't it? >> i think it has been. yeah. >> it has. and that's a good note to end. and have a great weekend. >> thank you. >> thanks to you at home for joining us this evening. so, right now, at this very moment, former president donald trump is giving his first extended -- extended -- public remarks since he was indicted on tuesday for trying to overturn the 2020 election. at this event tonight, trump has been railing against the department of justice and multiple federal -- multiple federal criminal indictment that have been brought against him by that department. he has called out marxist prosecutors for what he

referred to as racist in reverse -- racists in reverse, just making sure you get, that racist in reverse -- presumably means racism -- white people. according to his prepared remarks, there's also some room in there for five remarks about the deep state, and crooked joe biden, and you get the picture. now, because mr. trump is currently running for president, conventional wisdom might suggest that he would make these remarks on the campaign trail, maybe in an early primary state, like iowa, or new hampshire, or south carolina. but mr. trump decided that his first major post indictment public address would take place in the state of alabama. and that is notable for a couple of reasons. to begin with, one of the most important and, honestly, under discussed parts of the trump indictment is that special counsel jack smith chose to charge mr. trump under section 241 of title 18 of the u.s. criminal code.

if you don't know what that is, just often, that statute is part of a group of us called the enforcement acts, and they date all the way back to the year 1870. the laws were passed in the wake of the civil war to combat the rising threat of the newly established ku klux klan. at the time, the ku klux klan was engaged in a campaign of violent terrorism -- terrorism designed to disrupt free and fair elections. and that included preventing state official from counting and certifying the votes of newly-freed black men. now, it is worth remembering here that trump's own family has a dark history when it comes to the klan. in 1927, donald trump's father was arrested at a klan rally in queens, according to the washington post. trump's trump senior was charged with refusing to disperse from a parade -- according to a contemporaneous news report. donald trump has denied this instance, which, by the way, took place before he was born

-- he was denied ever happened. but the through line here is hard to ignore. this is what will bunch from the philadelphia inquirer wrote this week. easing the 1870 anti-klan law to prosecute trump, jack smith and his team are making a powerful statement. there is a straight line of inhumane racial hierarchy from the hooded killers of 1872 a 1927 kkk march through queens, right up to the twisted presidency of donald trump that ended in deadly violence in 2021. and now, the man charged under that anti-klan law, is taking his campaign to alabama. alabama, the state where the ku klux klan was headquartered up until 1987, and where klan the 's legacy of racist attacks on democracy is very much alive today. tonight, trump wasn't alabama to accept the endorsement of alabama's entire republican congressional delegation. just sit with that for a

second. after being indicted for trying to overthrow democracy, every single republican house member from alabama still endorsed donald trump tonight. but that is not the only controversy that those members of congress are dealing with. right now, that same congressional delegation is at the center of a national fight over the disenfranchisement of black voters. now, one in four people in the state of alabama is black. but only one of the seven congressional districts in alabama has a majority of black voters. that imbalance was so plainly obvious that, in june, the very conservative supreme court -- the same one where john roberts's chief justice -- that court, said alabama republicans had gone too far. and the court ordered alabama to create a new majority black district. but last month, alabama republicans came back with the new congressional map. and guess what? it still did not include a new majority black district.

they just decided to defy the supreme court on this one. and now, donald trump, again, the man who is just charged under the 1870s antique land anti-klan law is in alabama to be honored by state republican party to try to nullify federal voting rights laws to disenfranchise black voters. trump is there to accept the northeast of a congressional delegation that the supreme court says he's illegally constituted to rob of black voters of their rights. and trump is doing this standing alongside senator tommy tuberville, one of the senators former president trump tried to phone on january 6th -- a senator who recently spent weeks denying that white nationalists are racists, a senator who is currently engaged in his very own one-man anti-democratic campaign to hold up u.s. military nominations to further his own political agenda. donald trump could not be

sending a cleaver signal about what kind of america he envisions as he fights these new charges and seeks to take power once again. joining us now is charles coleman, former prosecutor, and now a civil rights attorney, also with us's new york times columnist michelle goldberg. i don't know, charles. when it was announced that, of all the states, he could be going to trump chooses alabama in the wake of getting indicted on the klan act? i saw a connection there that, maybe, i don't know -- am i off base? >> i would say no. there is so much to talk about here. but the first thing i want to say is, how rich is it that donald trump, who is a millionaire might white man, the former president of the united states, is now playing the race card? >> yes. >> how -- >> tonight, calling it racism in reverse. >> beyond that, alex, i've got to say, it must be nice now that the veneer is gone, in terms of the republican party no longer having to pretend that they are somehow the party

of law and order. because all we have seen is hypocritical attacks around what everyone who is responsible for upholding the law is doing in fulfilling their duty. attacks on fani willis, who has not even brought a case yet. >> yeah. >> the tax on alvin bragg, a tax on laetitia james -- of course, attacks on jack smith. -- and in many cases, vicious personal attacks that are deeply rooted in anti-blackness and other forms of racism. when you couple that with what is going on in alabama, and the recent controversy with the supreme court, and you consider that, even in the wake of having a supermajority of conservative justices, the republican house in alabama still refuses to comply with the court order -- the notion of law and order and anything that reconciles with that, and consistency, is completely thrown out the window. so, quite frankly, it is no surprise that he went there. because we are not talking about a group of people who are

representative of the majority of americans. but we are talking about a very devoted, very, very engaged -- >> -- >> and that's exactly what he is doing. >> yeah, to choose alabama -- which is -- i mean, i think we all remember, months ago, when the roberts court basically issued alabama a -- more than a slap on the wrist. a pretty significant ruling in favor of racial equity -- it's like, is this the same court that we have all come to know? they could -- >> write. when you are two races for this supreme court -- >> yes, that's saying something. >> then trump, on the heels of this indictment -- i've got to say -- and we will talk about this in a second. i feel there was a not explicit but a nod towards the racism inherent in the 2020, the january 6th coup, to go to alabama and graciously accept the endorsement of the entire congressional delegation, really sends a message about where the republican party's core is. >> right. and i believe that donald trump wanted his first rallies the

first time he ran for president was in alabama. >> yes. >> and the signal of the sort of president he was going to be with his early aligns with jeff sessions, who, at the time, seemed, so far out of the mainstream of the republican party, that was what the republican party wanted to admit what the mainstream was -- that there was something almost scandalous about that alliance, although jeff sessions, you know, not just proved to be too upstanding for donald trump, what is now, essentially, sort of median republican -- >> he's a rino -- >> look, i think what we have seen from trump since he was indicted is -- i mean, i kind of feel like -- you were talking about -- such a cliché, but who else, upon being indicted and kind of let out on bail on certain conditions -- or, not on bail, laid out on his own recognizance and, certain conditions, couldn't threaten all of the prosecutors that have either indicted him or could indict him --

and he's going to be giving this speech with one of the somebody who might very well be a witness in this criminal trial -- >> yes -- >> tommy tuberville, who he is not supposed to be talking about this case with -- and i think people will be watching with baited breath to see, can he get through an entire speech without either issuing dangerous threats or otherwise kind of walking right up to the line or crossing the line of criminality? >> yeah, and we had some prepared remarks. i think this is still ongoing -- herrera control room you can correct me if this is wrong. it just finished. but from what was advance to us, he is going right up to the line in terms of these prosecutors. i have to ask, though, charles coleman, the thing that will bunch is establishing in the philadelphia inquirer that there is a through line from the 18 70s klan law, to the appearance of fred trump at a klan rally, and the twisted presidency of donald trump. i mean, the idea that, in this

moment of crisis, trump chooses to focus on what he calls racism in reverse, which is black prosecutors going after a white man, right? that is more than just political sloganeering. that is saying the quiet part out loud about who donald trump is speaking to. and i think, to some degree, what he wants them to do -- which is focus on the blackness, and focus anger and turn on that blackness. >> well, alex, it is a full-throated yell to white nationalists across the country. and it's very important we distinguish between white nationalism and sort of white supremacy. white nationalism is extremely specific in that it refers to the notion that there are people who are not white who should not be allowed to run or even participate in the civic processes that our democracy is based on. and that is why it is so important have this conversation. because of who he is attacking and where they are positioned with respect to this process -- he is attacking district attorneys.

he is attacking legislators. he is attacking people who are basically at the helm of upholding our democratic institutions. and at the helm of upholding these laws. and also, what he is, at the same time, doing -- he is basically suggesting that it is okay, alabama, if you are disenfranchising literally thousands of black american voters. by defying what the supreme court has said -- >> yes. >> that is all white nationalist rhetoric. it is not a dog whistle. it is a bull horn. it is important to understand that that is exactly louisa peeling. to >> yeah, i'm over old enough to remember when the -- oh, the alabama congressional delegation, maybe literally disenfranchising people of color would be reason for a presidential candidate to be like, hey, maybe don't go down there and accept a unilateral endorsement of others and professional and delegation. >> right, but if you think about the fact that don trump is now running to stay out of prison, and if you think about what he has been -- the laws annoyance that he has been willing to smash, just in order to get into power, and what he is going -- and the people that he is going to disenfranchise, going to

need to disenfranchise if he has any hope of winning this next election -- i mean, i feel like the gloves have never been on. but they are really off now in terms of what he is going to be willing to do in 2024. >> i do wonder, charles, if i am overstating the case here. but it is interesting to me that he really -- he has called fani willis a racist, he has called allen bag racist and an animal, he has called tish james racist and peekaboo -- jack smith is a white man. so, i don't think racism in reverse applies to jack smith. he has not talked about jack smith's race. he calls and arranged. to me, there is a difference when trump shouts out the -- that almost calls for a rebalancing of the scales from trump supporters, whereas calling jack smith deranged is sort of like, don't listen to what that guy is saying. i don't know whether it is going so far to say, i almost hear violence in the calling of

black prosecutors racist, whereas i don't hear it in the same way when he talked about jack smith. >> there is no almost. and i think it is important to understand that that is very much so out of the white nationalist playbook. because part of it is a suggestion that, not only are you not qualified. but then there is a sort of dehumanizing element of what those remarks do to someone who is in a position of authority. >> yeah. >> that's very intentional. that's not by accident. this is not a mistake. donald trump is very clear about what he's doing in who he is appealing to. the other thing that makes this more interesting is, and you just sort of reference this, is that he is now running to stay out of jail. and so he is doubling down, almost in a space of desperation, to try to avoid what is inevitably coming with respect to convictions in one of these cases. expect that these attacks are going to contain additional vitriol. expect that they are going to contain additional hints around violence that are going to get louder and louder. and this is why you have a judge making the sort of boundaries that you do as part

of this arraignment. because we all can see where this is heading. we know what this is and we know where it is going. >> yeah. >> we have seen this movie before, and we know how it ends. the problem -- >> well, we have seen part one of this. we are now in the turbocharged sequel to it. >> this is the fast and furious franchise of politics in 2023. i think it is important to understand that part of the reason we got here is because we did not call it out for what -- back in 2015, when we saw it for the first time. we did not label -- these things have not occurred in a vacuum, alex, and so it's important to understand, that right now it is critical that we bear no bones about labeling these things for what they are in terms of the deep anti-blackness and racism that are shrouding all of these remarks around these prosecutors that donald trump is making. >> all part of a trajectory. charles coleman, thank you for your time tonight. as always, michelle, please -- around here, because i want to talk to you about a very crucial election that's happening next week, where republicans have been trying to say not the quiet part out

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arraignment, donald trump is making quite clear that he is counting on the supreme court to protect him from his multiple criminal indictments. trump called on the justices to, quote, intercede in the 2024 presidential race because of what he is calling election interference. trump argues that the 78 criminal charges filed against him by multiple prosecutors in separate jurisdictions, that those are all somehow part of a singular deep state plot, eye theory that may be rooted in panic or political strategy, or both. joining me now is someone who is very familiar with trump's defense and delay tactics, former manhattan da cy vance who spent years investigating trump and his family, and -- alvin bragg, who, as we know, issued trump's first criminal indictment back in april. mr. vance, thank you so much for being here. i appreciate it. >> -- >> good evening. first, your thoughts on this notion -- trump is calling this election interference and suggesting the

supreme court needs to intervene. do you think it is going to get to that point? >> i think, ultimately, of course trump will take whatever convictions may occur against him to the supreme court on appeal. we litigated twice against trump in the supreme court ultimately were successful in the supreme court, including that the president had to abide to the laws like everybody else and had to turn over his tax returns, which form the basis for our indictment of his business and his chief financial officer. but the supreme court was differently constituted. even as recently as two or three years ago -- the supreme court today, i think, is much more likely to be favorable to some of the arguments in some of the cases that trump may take up in the supreme court. the manhattan case, for example -- i think there are going to be somewhat novel issues of law as to whether a federal law can be used to bump up a statement --

to a felony. that's something i -- continue to see the supreme court deciding i gangster prosecutor. i think in the other cases, the conduct is so much clearly aligned with the charges, particularly in the most recent indictment, that i think, even with the supreme court, donald trump is not necessarily going to find a safe haven. >> yeah. it's interesting that you say that. i think a lot of folks looked at that alvin bragg indictment and thought, there might be some concerns here. but given the courts record, just another rulings, vis-à-vis the house investigation into january 6th, it almost seems like, yeah, john roberts is not necessarily on trump -- or at least the conservative justices are not necessarily on trump's side on a lot of privilege concerns that are here to come back up in the federal indictment regarding his actions in and around january 6th. >> in our case, really, when you look at it, the court was 9

to 0 against trump's claim of privilege. there were subtleties which divided the opinions. but on the issue of whether or not he was, essentially, immune from investigation, for his conduct as a private citizen, even though he was president, the supreme court was clear and unanimous. we do have a different supreme court. i think that is -- you know, that needs to be calibrated into the thinking of all the litigants. but i do think, listening to your prior panelists, we are in dangerous times. this is a time where judges, particularly, are going to be faced with how they manage a defendant who is a former president will push them to the edge. ultimately, i think, the control of donald trump in the next 18 months is going to rely on the hands of the courts. they are going to be reluctant to jail him for violating court orders, for fear that will, perhaps, cause riots, as they

might some other litigant. but they are going to have to find a way to respect the authority of the court and the process, which is critical to what happens in the next 18 months. and hopefully, without exploding this already volatile situation into something that is unmanageable. >> yeah, i think that that is such a wise assessment, that is really going to be in great part and hands of the court. i wonder, given the judges cautions to trump during his arraignment, do you think he is has already violated some of the terms of his bail? yesterday -- or, i guess it was today -- he posted, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. he is on the stump right now, or just finish being on the stump, and alabama, calling prosecutors deranged and all other manner of names. does this count as a violation of the terms of his bail agreement? >> i am sure that the court, in

their court law clerks, or sitting around tonight, asking that very same question. and, in some sense, the courts are going to give him leeway because they are going to respect his first amendment rights as far as they go. but i think that, quite honestly, there were things that trump said with regard to alvin bragg that, i thought, would be a trigger for the court to impose severe sanctions. how severe is really up to the court. but i think he has crossed the line. the question is, the courts are dealing with a very volatile situation. and they have to balance their authority and control of their courtroom with unprecedentedly, extremely volatile situation, which requires them to be not just judges, but readers of the community, and the community reaction. >> yeah, it's a very difficult position to be, and to say the least.

mr. vance, given your former position, as a former da, i wonder what you think about the order of operations. here we are awaiting a potential indictment from fulton county da fani willis. there are, as you are well aware, several indictments floating around here. what should be the order of operations? and what do you expect in terms of whether the federal case goes before any of the state cases? >> well, i, early on in my investigation of the trump organization, deferred to the federal prosecutor for, literally, a year. i think it was mistaken for me to do that. because, ultimately, the justice department walked away from its investigation. but i thought it was the right move at the time. alvin bragg -- apparently has indicated that he would agree to jack smith's case going first. i think that makes a lot of sense. i think prosecutors need to work with each other, as courts need to work with each other, particularly when we have overlapping, multiple judicial schedules that need to be

managed. i think ms. willis -- my expectation is because her case is indicted -- i think it will go last. but i think the question is, is da alvin bragg going to give prosecutors mid the opportunity to proceed forward? will he be okay with that? my senses, he will. because my sense is that da alvin bragg recognizes that, though he has great confidence in his case, that the federal case really is the most important case in the country right now that needs to be managed with as little outside distraction as can be achieved. >> yeah. i would go so far as to say one of the most important cases of my lifetime. former manhattan da cy vance. i am so deeply appreciative of your time and thoughts tonight, sir. thank you so much for spending some time with me on this friday night. >> thank, you alex. great to be here. >> we still have more ahead

tonight. florida governor ron desantis is throwing classrooms into chaos just days before school begins. we are going to talk with someone who is in the crosshairs of the governor's latest salvo in his war on woke. that is coming up. plus, the state of ohio goes to the polls next week. but republicans don't actually want voters to know what they are voting on. we are going to explain what is happening over there, coming up next. your brain is an amazing thing. but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. tv: try tide power pods with 85% more tide in every pod.

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of ohio will vote on a ballot measure called issue 1. and it could make or break a high winds ability to enshrining reproductive freedom into law. but if you watch the ads from the group pushing issue 1, you probably wouldn't get that at all. >> -- i am a mom. and i will be voting yes on issue 1. the groups that oppose issue 1 brag on social media about abolishing parental rights. >> take away parental parents ability to be informed and make decisions for their children -- >> it's obvious. the reason these groups are in ohio is to encourage sex changes. the special interest groups want to allow minors to get sex changes without parental consent. >> out of state special interests that put trans ideology in classrooms and encourage exchanges for kids are hiding behind slick ads.

don't be fooled. >> don't be fooled. even one of the state officials who introduced issue 1 to begin with, ohio's republican secretary of state, frank la rose, for months even franklin rose dismissed the idea that issue one issue 1 had to do with -- or at least that is what frank larose said publicly -- but then mr. larose was caught on video in a private meeting with supporters saying the quiet part out loud. >> people say, this is all about abortion. well, you know what? i am pro-life. i think many of you are as well. right? >> [applause] >> and this is about -- this is 100% about keeping a radical, pro abortion amendment out of our constitution. the left once to jam it in there this coming november. and so, yes, it's about abortion -- >> yes, it is about abortion. yes. well, there you have. it conservatives in ohio are hiding the ball here. they are pretending that issue 1 is about minors getting six

changes and trans ideology taking over the classroom. and they are doing that because they know their position on abortion is deeply, deeply unpopular. now, there is currently another ballot measure that ohioans are slated to vote on in november. and that ballot measure would enshrine the right who abortion into the state constitution. and that measure is wildly popular. when the groups dropped off the signatures to get that measure on the ballot this july, they had to deliver those signatures by the truckload. new polling by usa today and suffolk university found that 58% of ohio voters support that measure. 58% of ohio voters want abortion access protected in the state constitution. and the measure only needs more than 50% to pass. so, conservatives dreamed up their own ballot measure. and that is issue 1. and it would change ohio state law to make it so that you would need more than 60% of the vote to change the state constitution. sort of a filibuster threshold

for the popular vote. and that is called moving the goalposts. it is plainly anti-democratic. add that to the fact that the issue 1 folks have scheduled the vote on this in august to preempt the november vote that would enshrine abortion access in the state constitution. now, there has not been a statewide vote on a single issue in ohio in august in nearly 100 years. i mean, just this year, republicans in ohio made it against the law to hold elections at all in august, and then turnaround months later and made a special exception for this one vote. just this one. why? well, here is frank larose, the republican ohio secretary of state, and one of the main proponents of issue 1, the men who supported that initial ban on august elections. quote, august special elections urinary chronically low turnout because voters are not expecting an election to occur. interest groups often

manipulative really manipulative lee put issues on the ballot in august because they know fewer ohioans are paying attention. well, now, frank larose. we are going to talk about all of this anti-democratic gamesmanship in ohio and how it is a blueprint for the republican party's plan to reshape the nation. that is coming up next. p next your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ this is a bombas performance sock. for such a small item it performs big in so many ways. big on comfort. big on durability. big on breathability. bombas gives you big comfort for all your athletic pursuits.

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month to hold a very important special election. but tuesday's referendum in ohio, known as issue 1, being held in the middle of the summer -- well, that might very well be by design. in her latest piece, michelle goldberg writes, it's one that the antiabortion movement hopes for citizens don't notice. it's a -- preservation of democracy are intertwined. she continues, the measures import may not be immediately clear to voters, but it is meant to thwart a november ballot initiative that will decide whether reproductive rights should be constitutionally protected in ohio, where a sweeping abortion ban is tied up in court. michelle goldberg warns, if the right prevails on issue 1, and probably even if it doesn't, you can expect to see the blueprint repeated in other places. joining me again tonight michelle goldberg is, opinion columnist for the new york times. michelle, thanks for being here. this is such an important story. >> thank you. >> because, yes, it's important in terms of reproductive freedoms. but just the antidemocratic nature of what is happening here, beginning first with -- well, we are to begin?

but the republican party was like, no, no, no more august elections. it just disenfranchises voters in a way. >> right -- >> except -- when it's a means to our ends, we can do it. do you think the outrageousness of these devices is actually going to rebound to progresses favors that is actually going to turn more people out in the process? >> i think only if people know that it is happening. >> yeah. >> they put it in august in purpose -- people are used to voting in august. -- they would rather think about anything else. and so, yes, i think that if they understand what is happening, then it will be galling to people. and it is worth noting to people that progressives are angry about this, but you also have a significant number of republicans -- you know, bob taft, you don't get more republican than that in ohio. john kasich -- have both come out against this because of how flagrantly anti-it is. and so what you have seen in some of the polls -- you see some polls that show most people are against issue 1,

but there is one poll that shows a slight majority -- i think one point in favor of it. but the same poll shows majority support for adding reproductive rights to the ohio constitution. so, people are not -- >> they are not aware -- >> making that -- >> that issue 1 -- >> is meant to foreclose that -- >> -- filibuster threshold for the popular vote. that's not how the framers intended it. you don't -- 60% majority to get something like -- >> and the context for this is that ohio is one of the states -- i mean, it's a conservative state, but not as conservative as the state legislature. >> yes. >> the state legislature is so highly gerrymander that you have this republican super majority that is far more extreme than the populace. >> yes. >> meanwhile, you have a supreme court that also, with these three judges, appointed by a president who lost the popular vote, who has instituted his very unpopular regime on the country. ohio has -- ohio is not alabama. right? but ohio has basically alabama

style abortion laws, even though, right now, it is tied up in court. ohio is the state where that ten-year-old rape victim, famously, had to flee and go to indiana. >> yes. >> there is no reason to think that this is what ohio voters want. and in fact, the governor, the republican governor who signed the bill has it, well, we should really amend it. it goes farther than the voters want. but the voters don't really have very much -- >> -- >> -- other than a referendum to make their voices heard. and so, what you see is that because republicans see where public sentiment is, rather than bow to public sentiment, they want to change the rules to disenfranchise -- >> yet, they have taken away that was a representative democracy. >> and it's not just ohio. because this is coming in other places. what we have seen everywhere -- you know, there has been six ballot referendum on abortion since the dobbs decision. and the pro-choice side has won all of them. and so there has been this move to have kind of michigan foul referenda in lots of different states. and because it is the one way where people can have their voice heard -- and so, all over the country,

you see republican saying, we have to change the rules of the ballot initiatives. >> yes. or the voters have found a lever which which they can make their voices -- >> -- >> we've got to take it away from them. to your point, and you mentioned mention this in your article -- the gerrymandering in ohio, the fact that the state representative -- the state house is no longer representative of the state. ohio's voter preference over the past ten years splits about 54% republican 46% democratic. but under the maps, republicans control 67 of 99 state house seats and 26 of the 33 state seats. they are taking a kind of blushing pink state and turning it deep red. >> right. >> to your point, they're making ohio into ballot, and that's entirely the point. >> and -- these maps are unconstitutional, and the ohio legislature keeps saying, well, try to stop us, and you had to trump judges -- recent elections had to happen

under these unconstitutional maps. so, the ways in which democracy is being thwarted are just -- it's very, very layered. this is the one opportunity that this coming referendum in november for the voters to make their voices heard and that is why they want to shot -- >> i think, to your point, even if it doesn't succeed, republicans elsewhere are going to see, hey, it didn't work there. but, man, did they come close. maybe we tried here. >> yeah, they are already planning. it -- this is happening, there's plans for this in missouri, in florida, arizona. this is the kind of next wave for the antiabortion movement. >> oh, lord. michelle goldberg, thank you for chronicling these unusually awful times in such eloquence. >> thank you. >> it's great to see you. thanks for your time -- double time tonight. when we come back, thousands of florida's best and brightest students are getting the rug pulled out from underneath them by florida governor ron desantis and his culture war, with just days to go before school starts. that is next. at is next

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catalog being offered. i think they have taken it back. i think that's a mistake. and -- being offered. >> that is governor ron desantis today pushing back on an earlier announcement from the college board that florida's department of education had effectively banned ap psychology in the state, because ap psychology violates florida's parental --

that is also known as the don't say gay law. the college board, which administers the ap courses, said in a statement yesterday that florida school districts are free to teach ap psychology only if it excludes any mention of sexual orientation and gender identity. the college ward said cannot modify the course in response to laws that would censor college level standards. but the idea of no more ap psychology in the entire state of florida has stirred up some controversy here. so, the florida education commissioner, just a few hours ago, fired back with the statement insisting that the department believes that ap psychology can be taught in its entirety in a manner that is age and developmentally appropriate. but that sort of leaves a lot of questions there, doesn't it? specifically, what does the state of florida think's agent developmentally appropriate? and does that involve any mention of sexual orientation and gender identity? now, so far, the college board is focused on the part of the

statements it says ap may be taught in its entirety, but what does that actually mean for the teachers who need to begin school in a matter of weeks? joining me now is rachel chapman, a high school teacher in orlando florida who has been teaching ap psychology for the past 17 years. ms. chapman, thank you for being here. i know it is not easy, perhaps, to talk critically about what's going on in the state of florida, if you are employed in the state of florida, so i really appreciate you coming on television tonight. let me just first ask, what is going on in your classroom? how are you preparing for the next year? >> it is kind of difficult right now because everything is still up in the air. there is a lot of change, a lot of movement still happening. so, there is a still great unknown to our, what is this year going to be looking? like our students start next week and we are still not entirely sure what is going to happen. and this new information coming from the state is kind of muddying the waters a little bit. so, it is really difficult for me to prepare in the way that

is necessary for my student starting next week. >> for people who didn't take ap psych, i am one of them -- can you just explain why it is necessary to have content that addresses gender and sexual orientation in a ap psych class? >> excellent. ap psychology is all about the study of the human mind and behavior. and when we try to understand human behavior, we need to look at it from multiple lenses. and by looking at through these multiple lands as we can understand all of humanity. and to take out bits and pieces we are missing that important aspects about what makes psychology psychology. what makes us us. so, it's not like a pick and choose. we can't just decide we are going to look at certain parts of ourselves. we need to look at all of it. >> what do you think is -- what do you think is behind the state saying, yeah, you can't do that anymore in a ap psychology class anymore in the

state of florida? what does that signal to you? >> it is really difficult to really interpret what they mean. we don't know if they are doing that because they don't want discussion at all about gender and sexuality. we don't know if they want it reduced -- what do they want? and when we hear that message from them, not to include it, it really makes me wonder, do we want all discussion about these individuals out of the classroom entirely? >> to the outside world, this reminds me of the stop woke act, which really chilled any discussion of race, racism, institutional racism, slavery -- i mean, basic sort of questions about how you teach history in the state of florida are kind of up for grabs because of the vagueness of the law, and the haphazard way with which it is in fourth. and i wonder if the same might be happening in the field of psychology, or the teaching of

ap psychology in classes, that it remains purposefully vague to have, effectively, a chilling effect on teachers and lesson plans -- are you worried about your ability to teach going forward? >> i do have concerns. teachers love clarification. teachers thrive on information. and we need that clarification to make sure that we are not ourselves going to be getting into trouble, walking on eggshells in the classroom is never helpful for students. it is not going to help them understand what we are trying to talk about. so, clarification is so important. the vagueness of what is happening right now is really putting us in a situation where we cannot prepare and we cannot teach effectively. >> this is obviously not the only ap course that has come under fire or intersected with governor desantis's agenda. this same is true, notoriously, for the ap african american studies class. i wonder, if you start

targeting these advanced placement courses and the students who take them, what does that say about the level of education in florida? what does that do to parents who are looking to get a great education for their kids in florida public schools? does it make them want to take their kids out? what are you hearing from parents whose children are victims of the conservative cultural agenda here? >> it is complicated. because there are many parents who are concerned. are they are students going to be competitive when it comes to college? are they going to be competitive when it comes to career readiness? but at the same time, i really want all people to know, that florida -- are hard workers, we are really good at what we do. and we are going to do what we can to do what is best for the students, to make sure that they are getting the highest quality education that we are able to give them. >> that is such an important caveat. and i have been down to florida a lot. the people who are dedicated to teaching in that state are american heroes. and my hat is off to you for bearing through this. rachel chapman, thank you so

much for joining us. good luck down there. we will be following what is going on down there. >> thank you very much. >> that is our show for this evening, this week, and now it is time for "the last word" with ali velshi in four lawrence o'donnell. >> you know, they've got the internet in florida. i am puzzled by -- they've got the internet. but we are going to learn about sexuality. we are going to learn about gender identity. we are going to learn about gay people. >> yes, although we shouldn't have to rely on the internet to learn about history and learn about -- and learn about human sexuality, right? the point is, you should be able to learn about it in school. >> -- i just don't get how they think this and then how they think this succeeds. but thanks for doing, it my friend. you have a great week. >> you as well. >> we've got some breaking news right now. we are just working on getting our own -- but this has been posted by kyle cheney of politico. the special counsel's office has filed asking the judge in this indictment for a protective order. now, this has to