man among us who spent 14 grand to become more like lassie. from the inside out. i'm going to let you sit with your own thoughts on that one. but got to admit, at a passing glance, you barely notice. that is it for today. i'm alicia menendez. thank you for spending part of your saturday with us as always, be sure to follow us on twitter and on tiktok at alicia on msnbc. i'm gonna see you back here tomorrow for more american voices. but for now, i handed over to my colleague, ayman mohyeldin. hello ayman >> hello alicia. first of all, we've got to talk about that, right? who amongst us has not wanted to kind of dress up as a bear, just to escape the world that we are living in, right? no? >> really? party of one, my friend. >> i feel like there are people out there who definitely, with everything that's happening in the world, just want to escape the reality that they find themselves in. and perhaps maybe, i don't know. no? >> i think there are ways to do that with 14 grand.

>> i'm not talking about the guy. i'm not talking about the guy pretending to be a dog. i'm talking about maybe the idea that that bear was a person, and that sent the internet ablaze with everyone speculating, because it looked way too real. >> what is it that you think neither the bear or the dog is the craziest thing that we've reported on this week? >> i know exactly. it tells you exactly the world we are living in. great show as always my friend, great to see you. good evening. everyone we have special news. a special counselor alike to that protective order against donald. trump, plus debunking trump's defense. we'll break down the empty units his legal team and his republican allies which they're already making. the woman at the center of the criminal trial, what to know about judge tanya trot again, and her surprising history with the ex president. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started.

>> i read a lot of breaking news this evening, just moments ago, a string of developments regarding donald trump's third and arguably most important indictment. judge tanya chutkan, who's overseeing this case, just denied at trump's legal team an extension to respond to a protective order request from the special counsel's office. now, prosecutors filed the request for the protective order with the judge last night, asking that to trump be barred from disclosing any evidence in the investigation, as the discovery phase begins. in the request, the special counsel cited a post from trump 's failed social media site that said, quote, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. now, prosecutors argued that post suggests trump might intimidate witnesses by improperly disclosing confidential evidence received from the government. now, trump's team had asked for extra time to respond to this order.

but judge chutkan has now made it clear. trump's team must respond by the original deadline that she laid out. monday at five pm eastern. the ex president had already received a warning from the magistrate judge who oversaw his arraignment, that judge reminded trump then that it is a crime to influence a juror or when this and retaliate against anyone for retaliating information to the prosecution. let's note here, this is all taking place before trumped actually goes before a judge chutkan for the first time. his first hearing is now scheduled for august 28th. at that time, we will most likely get a trial date. now, a lot has already happened since tuesday when jack smith made public the 45-page indictment against trump. to some, indictment fatigue

might be setting in in america. after all, we have already gone through this twice before. but unlike the first two indictments issued in new york and florida, this indictment is different. put it simply, it is way more important. as richard hastened writes in slate, forget hush money payments to porn stars hidden's as business expenses. forget showing off classified documents about iran attack plans to visitors. and then order in the pool guy to erase the security tapes. forget even corrupt attempts to interfere with election results in georgia in 2020. the federal indictment just handed down by special counsel jack smith is not only the most important indictment bipolar, a former president donald trump, it is in fact the most the important indictment ever handed down to safeguard american democracy in the rule of law in any u.s. court against anyone. law as requested also mentioned, this trial isn't just about

accountability for trump and his allies. it is about a pillar of our democracy. free and fair elections. it is about ensuring our founding principles are protected. and that if another trump-like figure comes along someday, he or she will look at how this ex president was held account, and maybe, just maybe, think twice about trying to overturn an election. joining me now to discuss this is my saturday night panel, for anthony coley, nbc justice and legal affairs -- he's also former director of the office of public affairs and former senior adviser to attorney general merrick garland. cynthia alksne, nbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor. and olivia troye, former homeland security advisor and terrorism advisor to vice president mike pence. it's good to have all three of you with us. cynthia, i'll start with you. there were already reports this week about how judge chutkan would likely move this case through very quickly. and i think we just got a glimpse of that today, with her swift response. appearing to prove that point. do you think her moves today set the tone for how she plans thrgh? and what do you make of how today's string of legal news unraveled quite rapidly, i would argue? >> right, and continues to

unravel. because the president, former president continues to tweet in violation of her order. for which, i feel sorry for the lawyers. because they are obviously have no control over their client. he is either completely deranged, because a woman of color is telling him what to do. or he's purposely trying to push her to do something that he can raise money on down the road. but it's shocking that he was told not to retaliate against a witness, and that's exactly what he has done on the pence tweet. he was told not to interfere, and that's exactly what the threats that he has made are doing. and when she says we expect a report by monday, and his lawyer say, i'm sorry, we don't think that makes sense. we want more time. then they have time to go on five television shows tomorrow morning, that's going to do nothing but enraged her. the one thing that the judge has absolute control over is

his -- her calendar, and when that trial data is. and the one thing trump really wants is to delay the trial. and what he's going to find out is this trial is not going to be delayed. she's going to push it, and push it very hard but, to be done before the election. >> you bring up a really important point, we'll dig into it a little bit about the lawyers for trump here. but let me just ask really quickly, as cynthia to explain to us, myself and viewers, the difference between a protective order, which is what the special counsel's actually asking for here, and not a gag order. how do those two differ? >> well, the protective order was something that just said, you are not going to -- you aren't going to release the

information about the witnesses. a gag order actually is stronger, which is, you are not going to speak on x y or z topics. fanned what's really on -- also on the table here, is you have violated your terms of release. and maybe you're going to go in the back in handcuffs. that's where we are on this. if he continues to push her, she may very well put him in the back the. if it was a regular person, ayman, if you had done this, if ayman mohyeldin the had violated terms of the release, the manner in which trump had done, you would be sitting in the back in handcuffs, eating a really bad cheese sandwich. the only reason why he's not doing that is because of politics. >> i'm so glad you bring up that point. -- >> every guy who's arrested, every person who's arrested in this country would be sitting in the back eating a cheese sandwich. because this guy has gotten away with it for so long, and because there are so much strife in the country, it is a very difficult situation for her to manage him as a defendant. and she's going to have to walk very carefully. >> i was going to say, really quickly, sorry to step over you. but to your point, what we have seen time and time again, when

his allies say, oh, trump is not receiving equal treatment. i would argue he's actually receiving special treatment because of who is. because he is an ex president. because he's now a presidential candidate. he's getting away with things that me, or you, or any other normal citizen would never have been given the privilege to. both in terms of the legal pace of this, but also just politically speaking. and, i want to get your thoughts, anthony, specifically about the special counsel here. in the special counsel's request, they cite how trump has previously issued public statements on social media witnesses -- on social media, about witnesses, judges, attorneys and others associated with legal matters, pending against him. so, it seems to go without saying that this motion was necessary from the doj's perspective, very early on. >> it was absolutely necessary, amen, and they moved with the seed that we have all come to expect from jack smith. to cynthia's point, right now,

we have, on the one hand, a very aggressive prosecutor inject smith, the doj would say we pursue justice about the -- your favor is absolutely doing that. and -- he is in that independent, he's not some left wing idealogue that donald trump is trying to make him out to be. now, to the second point, judge the chutkan, she is well known in legal circles as someone who is fair to all sides. but she also has a reputation for being tough. i would note, phil ayman, i think i've seen some commentary from you perhaps, that earlier in some of her january 6th cases, she sentenced defendants who were found guilty in her courtroom to even more time than the government requested.

so, judge chutkan, she's the real deal. she has a reputation for having fidelity to the rule of law. and she's not going to be afraid of donald trump. >> olivia, you are on this network earlier today. you mentioned how trump's third indictment is actually the culmination of a man who has run his entire life on lies. you are someone who worked in the white house, who saw the inner workings of these lies. what are your feelings as you see trump, you know, and his delay tactics here, denied? >> well, it's classic on who he is, right. this is a man who thinks he is untouchable. he thinks that he will get away with everything, and anything. i think you are going to continue to see him deflect. you're going to see his inner circle of advisers deflect. the whataboutism that continues, that you're seeing play out. they will double down on it. they'll attack people that they think they are threatened by. i just saw, he's out there attacking mike pence, still today.

but this is what he does. i think that protective order, as someone who has been docked to personally by members of the -- trump's own cabinet, i will tell you, that is something to be taken very seriously. this is who these people are. they will try their best to intimidate witnesses. they'll put information out about any of these individuals, whether it's the judge's jury, anything like that. anything like private information. any information they can use as a tactic, and as a dog whistle, to some of his more extreme followers, who will take action, or spread it, or do anything to engage in those threats. they will do. and they will do it time and time again. that's how these people behave. >> you know, cynthia, some of us have described this as the most important case facing our democracy. just because of what it portends as an outcome. i'm curious to get your thoughts on whether we are being hyperbolic with it. obviously, the other case, national security is just as important, with the classified

documents. but this case, really as i said in my introduction, is more than just about trump. it's about the rule of law, it's about democracy, and whether or not we get a future authoritarian leader who may think twice about trying to overturn an election. >> i absolutely agree. the idea that we can't have a peaceful transition of power in this country alters the country completely. i'm a big democrat, i've been a democrat my whole life. but i always go to all the -- i lived in washington, i go to all the inaugurations. i went to raegan's, i went to bush's, i stand outside and cheer. because it's so magical that in our country we have a peaceful transition of power. now we don't have it anymore. we've had it since washington. and we don't, it's gone. we lost our innocence in that way, as a country. that's what trump has done for us. the only way to get it back is to assert that the rule of law is going to control, and we are going to go back to those democratic norms. the first thing that has to happen is this. there has to be a conviction in this case. it looks to me, after reading the indictment several times, even listening -- i haven't listened to it when

ali velshi read it. i did both because it's so important. this indictment is overwhelmingly strong. and as soon as it gets to trial, the sooner the better, and we can begin to put our country back on the path of an organized decent democracy, where we have values, and when the loser concedes. and has a speech, and says they love the country, and they go to the inauguration of the next person. and the democrats and the republicans come together on that day, and cheer our country. but step one is a conviction in this case. it is very important that it happened quickly. >> olivia, let me ask you about somebody you know well. mike pence, he's obviously played a very important role in. this as we are learning. he was mentioned several times in the indictment. and we read in detail how time and time again he denied trump 's request to overturn the election. what do you make of his fair weather stances on trump, at least certainly what he says in public, and what he's been doing behind the scenes, and when the indictment came down

on tuesday, he said that anyone who puts himself over the constitution should never be president, but the very following day, he placed blame on trump's lawyers? >> well i think that clearly tells you where the republican party's base is. it is the party of trump. and so i think pence finds himself consistently walking a fine line here between standing up for himself, which i think he should be more aggressive about, telling the truth about what happened, since he lived it, and he is a key witness in this case. he lived it firsthand. i think the thing is here, trump knows this. pence is the one person who can really take him down. because he's lived it. not only has he lived the january 6th and the lead up to it, and everything that happened when it came to this particular case, but he's also lived all four years of that administration. he knows the good, the bad, and the ugly. he saw the good, the bad, and the ugly. and i think trump is actually

worried. for pence, i think he should stop waffling. i think what he does that, he makes himself look weak. i know he's lost a lot of confidence from other republicans who want him to take a stand, or moderate voters, even across the american people, people wonder why. the truth is on his side. you've got that going for you, right? you did nothing wrong. you followed up. you stood your ground on that. so why -- which really mattered for our country -- >> go ahead, anthony. >> ayman, i was going to say, this is why this protective order is so important. right before we came on air, we saw a post on trump's social media account where he attacked mike pence yet again for saying that mike pence, if i can back up for a second and tell you a story. in early january, he tried to pressure mike pence yet again to overturn the election. pence refused. and trump's response was, you

are too honest. can you believe that, man? this is where we are. when i re-read that in the indictment, when i just heard what olivia was talking about, in terms of being doxxed, this is somebody who, olivia, was telling the truth, and dozens and dozens of witnesses in this case have been subpoenaed. they're telling the truth. they are at risk of being intimidated by this president, who is using language that we tend to see from deposed leaders and third world countries that we tend to see even from mobsters. he was the one who just said, if you come for me, i'm coming for you. that's the language that we hear from mob bosses, not former american presidents. >> what's also interesting, anthony, when you read the indictment, as lisa pointed out, the effort that trump and jeffrey clark at the doj went to try and convince other officials at the department of

justice that they were election fraud allegations, which ultimately never proved to be true or were never substantiated. it goes to show you what degree they wanted to weaponize the department of justice against our elections. please stick around, everyone, we have a lot more to discuss. we're going to squeeze in a quick break. on the other side of it, we will knock down the possible defense damages trump and his legal team for putting forward in the election interference case. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ ...because t-mobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? >> vo: for us, driving around is the only way we can get our baby to sleep, so when our windshield cracked, we needed it fixed right. we went to safelite.com. there's no one else we'd trust. their experts replaced our windshield, and recalibrated our car's advanced safety system.

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trump was indicted for engaging in a wide ranging criminal conspiracy to overturn u.s. democracy, his defense lawyer, john lauro, went on fox and telegraphed his coming strategy.

>> i would like them to try to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that donald trump believed that these allegations were false. >> that's gotten a lot of attention. most of it appropriately dismissive. even trump's former attorney general, bill barr, believes defenses like that are nonsense. >> i've come to believe that he knew well he had lost the election. they are not attacking his first amendment right. he can say whatever he wants. that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. we're looking at the tip of the iceberg on this. >> you think jack smith has more? >> oh yes, i would believe he has a lot more. >> let's bring back my panel. anthony coley, cynthia alksne, and olivia troye. cynthia alksne, let's start with a legal argument. this so-called free speech argument that trump is a lot to say whatever he wants and believe whatever he wants. trump's lawyers are saying jack smith is criminalizing trump for saying the election was rigged. i want to give you a shot at the debunking that for us.

walk us through why that is just nonsense? >> i think what happened was they prepare it they are tall compliance when this and document was going to come, picking it was going to be about the ellipse speech and the following insurrection. that's not what the indictment is. but that never really had a chance to reach -- defense. and so that went with what the head, which doesn't really make any sense given this indictment. in fact, the indictment says he's perfectly able to have his first amendment rights to talk about the election and say anything they want. here is the thing. here is the example that makes it most easy. if you are in a fight with a bank over your money, and you think the bank owes you money, you could stand outside the bank and scream and holler. you could write them email, to all kinds of things. but you cannot involve yourself in a conspiracy to rob the bank. and that's essentially what jack smith is saying here.

you can argue about the election, but you can't enter into a conspiracy to have fake electorals that violates all the laws. you can't enter a conspiracy to try to force pence to do something he wasn't able to do. you can't get involved in that, and a conspiracy, and think you're going to have a first amendment defense. the first amendment defense is a matter of law -- is on laughable. >> in the indictment he says we have the right to say that. you have the right to say you feel the election was stolen. you have a right to spread that lie as much as you want. it's one thing to spread it and say it and believe it, it's another thing to get other people involved, in trying to impede congressional proceedings. put forth -- >> it is about action. >> it is about action, yeah. >> all about action. >> anthony, from the special counsel's perspective, this is clearly not a case about free speech as we were just saying. why do you think trump's lawyers are leading on this first amendment argument? if it's so easy to debunk, then is it just about the messaging, that it's an easy message to rile up his base? they're attacking me for my speech and what i believe in. >> it's absolutely the easiest

message he has. but let me do a hat tip to cynthia. i've been wrecking my head for the best analogy since tuesday. that bank robbery think she mentioned, that's absolutely the best analogy. from my vantage point, there are two things is going on here in terms of his approach, public approach, to this case. the first is him trying to delay the case. delay, delay, delay is the name of the game. and i've been around legal circles for a while. i will tell you, most of the defendants who are innocent want to have the trial as quickly as they can, so that they can be proven innocent in a court of law by a jury of a peers and move on with their lives. that should tell you everything that you need to know about the strength of the government's case. to -- to your point, my second point, the court of public opinion is where he is trying to make his strongest argument

using the language that we talked about. incendiary language, we talked about earlier in the segment. which is literally threatening to tear our country apart, ayman. i know you've written commentary on this. my hope is that his trial will be televised so that all the public and the world can see what he tried to do to overturn american democracy. i think that transparency is the best way to fight back against misinformation that continually comes from donald trump and his allies. >> no doubt about it. speaking of his allies, olivia, when we keep hearing from him, from trump and his allies, that this is not going to be a fair trial. it is in d.c. and it's compromised. it's mainly democratic voters, the judge is obama appointee.

listen to what lindsey graham and ron desantis are saying. >> any conviction in d.c. against donald trump is not legitimate. >> you could convict trump of kidnapping lindberg's baby. in d.c., you need to have a change of venue. >> the d.c. jury would indict a ham sandwich and convict the ham sandwich if it was a republican. >> and the irony, which doesn't seem to be lost on ron desantis and lindsey graham, is that the classified documents trial is taking place in a florida city that voted overwhelmingly for trump, with a judge he appointed. not a previous republican president, but he himself trump appointed. help me understand, lindsey graham and ron desantis's logic where they think that is fair and yet the other is not? >> that's a classic right wing talking point that they're espousing, right? it's the way they undermine the situation. that's what they push out their

followers and viewers. that's how they convince their followers and voters, this is not going to be a fair trial from the start. but it doesn't change the facts. it doesn't change the legal situation. it doesn't change the fact that donald trump is being held accountable for having broken the law. the classified documents case, exactly, by the way, you and i, if we'd taken classified documents, anybody, i was at national security for 20 years, i would be sitting in jail already. there will be no question. it would be no nuance on this. that levels that here for all these people and all these republicans who continue to be the masters of the spin. again, it is their most effective strategy. right now, they have nothing else. they have nothing else that they can push out there, except for continuing to undermine the situation. undermine our judicial system, that the only lever they have. because the reality is, some of these people or complicit in

this situation, right? >> they spent years undermining our elections. now they're spending years undermining the judicial process. it's only just getting worse from here. anthony coley, cynthia alksne, olivia troye, thank you for joining us and starting us off tonight. next, the timeline of events over just three short months that brought trump to this third indictment. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ (fan #1) there ya go! that's what i'm talkin' about! (josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. switch now

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there had been a suspicious dump of votes in detroit, michigan. on november 7th, a senior staffer tells him he only has a five to 10% chance of winning the election. now this is important here because it goes to trump's state of mind. that he knew he had lost and his challenge is to the results were made in bad faith. that same day, joe biden is declared president elect. and soon, people in trump's orbit, one by one, begin to acknowledge that loss. in fact, on november 13th, trump's campaign attorneys recognized in court that he had lost arizona and the election. the next day, according to the indictment, trump turned to coconspirator number one who appears to be rudy giuliani, to execute a strategy to impair, obstruct, and defeat the electoral voting system. between november 20th and november 25th, trump and his coconspirators began confident leaders across targeted swing states. including michigan, arizona,

georgia, pennsylvania. alleging election fraud despite, again, no evidence of fraud existing. this is an effort to get republican officials on board with trump's scheme. on november 20th, trump meets in the oval office with the leaders of the michigan house owned senate, and talks about that vote dump in detroit. again, the one that doesn't exist. on november 22nd, trump and coconspirator one call the speaker of the arizona house and repeat election lies. on november 25th, coconspirator three, who appears to be sidney powell, files a lawsuit against the governor of georgia, falsely alleging massive election fraud. on this same day, coconspirator one orchestrates an event in pennsylvania, attended by state legislatures, where he spreads more lies about fraud that doesn't exist. but trump and his team, despite these efforts, they continue to hit roadblocks. on november 29th, the results of a recount in wisconsin,

which trump's campaign had petitioned and paid for, determined that trump did in fact lose the state. and soon, state leaders begin to speak out. on december 4th, the arizona house speaker, a republican, says he will not change the outcome of a certified election. and georgia's secretary of state debunks coconspirator one's claims of election fraud. and around this time, these elected republicans refuse to go along with trump's scheme. a new plot is set into motion. the fake electors plot. on december 6th, trump and coconspirator two, who we now know is john eastman, calls rnc chair woman rhona mcdaniel to get her support for that plot. the next day, coconspirator one receives what's known as the wisconsin memo, and the fraudulent elector memo created from ideas mapped out by coconspirator number five that

become the legal strategy on which these fake electors is based. coconspirator one talks to coconspirator six about attorneys who could assist in the scheme in targeted states. arizona, georgia, michigan, nevada, new mexico, pennsylvania, and wisconsin. on december 14th, when legitimate electors actually submit their votes to congress in favor of joe biden, fake electors meet in those seven swing states to cast their vote for donald trump. eventually, thankfully, these fake certificates are rejected by the national archives and the u.s. senate. and that's when another game start to unfold. because in the following days, trump works to get the justice department to support his election subversion efforts. and he begins basically laying the groundwork for the rally that he will hold on january 6th. during the last few days of december, and into early january 2021, trump presses the

acting attorney general jeffrey rosen and acting deputy attorney general richard donahue on election fraud claims in wisconsin, georgia, and pennsylvania. all of which are debunked. all of which are debunked. on december 28th, coconspirator four, who appears to be ex doj official jeffrey clark sends a draft literal to rosen and donahue. he pushes them to sign. the letter he wants to send to those seven targeted states contains election lies and claims the justice department had, quote, identified significant concerns that may have impacted the outcome of the election and multiple states. luckily, donahue rejects that. trump, no. he doesn't give up. he keeps going. on december 31st, trump meets with rosen and donahue and other advisers where he again raises election lies.

trump suggests he might change doj leadership at this meeting. trump makes that now infamous phone call to georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger, asking him to find 11, 870 votes. the next day, he tells mike pence that he has the absolute right to reject electoral votes. he does not. he does not have that authority. over the next two days, trump and coconspirator to work to convince pence and his aides that he should reject biden's electoral votes or send them back to the states. at the same time, trump encourages his supporters to travel on to washington, d.c., on january 6th. and on the morning of the six of that january, trump attempts to send fake elector certificates from michigan and wisconsin to pence, which his staff reject. now, this timeline is going to get detailed now because the last-ditch efforts of trump and his lackeys that day ramps into overdrive. at 11:15 a.m., trump called pence to reject legitimate votes.

pence refuses. just before one pm, pence announces the certification proceeding is about to bring in. and as trump finishes his speech on the ellipse, the trump mob start to advance toward the capitol, that when the insurrection starts. at around 2:13 pm, the crowd breaks into the capitol building. and when trump is told this news, he refuses to stop his supporters. at 2:24 pm, trump tweets, pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and constitution. one minute later, secret service evacuates pence to a secure location. and at 4:17 pm, trump releases a video message on twitter repeating election lies. now, as the evening comes, trump and coconspirator one attempt to exploit the violence. calling republican lawmakers to convince them to delay the certification of electoral votes. at 7:01 pm, the white house counsel asked trump to withdraw his objections and allow for certification to continue. he refuses.

the senate and house come back into session hours later, and come together in a joint session at 11:35 pm. at 11:44 pm, up until the very last minute, trump and his allies are still attempting to overturn the election results. coconspirator two emails mike pence's counsel, urging him, yet again, to delay the certification. but at 3:41 a.m., on january 7th, mike pence certifies the results of the 2020 presidential election. it takes more than two years until august 1st of 2023 for trump to be indicted in this scheme. and now with a trial date set to be scheduled at the end of this month, this timeline is far from over. after the break, ohio republicans are trying to make it harder to protect women's reproductive rights. we tell you about that story next. ♪ ♪ ♪ mr. clean magic eraser powers through tough messes. so it makes it look like i spent hours cleaning! and you know i didn't.

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on tuesday that could have major implications for reproductive rights. in order to explain this moment, we have to go back to february for a moment. that is when activists proposed an amendment to the states constitution that would codify abortion rights, ensuring, quote, every individual has a right to make and carry out one's report of assistance. by the end of last, month amendment backers had gathered more than 70,000 signatures, nearly double the required amount. forcing a referendum on the matter. which is now set for november 7th. but as you can imagine, there is a catch here because republicans introduced the ballot measure of their own called issue one, that would make it harder to pass constitutional amendments, increasing the threshold from a simple 50% majority to a 60% one. and republicans pushed for a special august vote on the measure in an effort to influence the outcome of this november abortion rights or friend them. and that brings us to next week 's special election. ohio voters will decide whether

to make it more difficult to pass constitutional amendments, and as you could imagine, it is a make-or-break moment for abortion rights. a new usa today poll found 58% of ohio voters backed guaranteeing access to reproductive services. for both sides, that is cutting it close. now, zooming out to abortion rights battles and other states underscores really how key this threshold could be. while abortion rights won in all six states that had measures on the ballot back in 2022, in four of those elections, the majorities were just under, or under completely, 60%. joining me now is democratic congresswoman shontel brown of ohio. great to see you, thanks for coming back on the show. we are seeing a huge and historic turnout from ohio voters, and as we mentioned this as a special election in the middle of summer, no less. two weeks into early vote, votes are surpassing 18,000 per day. as of august 2nd, more than 533,000 people had cast their

ballots, according to an associated press tally. that is, again, nearly twice the number of early votes in the two previous midterm primaries, in ohio, and i wanted to give that context to our viewers, so we know what we're talking about here in terms of turnout. who do you think is turning up to vote and what are you hearing on the ground? >> once again, thank you for having me. and on the heels of the 58th anniversary of the voting rights, this is an issue that is very personal to me as a black woman. when we think about issue one, as you laid out a perfectly, this is really, in my opinion, an illegal election. one of the things you did not say is that this republican dominated legislature stated they would no longer have august elections. because we are not conditioned to vote in august. in fact, the last time they had a statewide august election was in 1926. so they thought people were not going to be paying attention. but i'm proud to say, as of yesterday, i spoke to a group

of enthusiastic voters in the city of cleveland, who today spent their time pounding on pavements and knocking on doors and making sure their friends and neighbors knew that issue one was on the ballot. i'm also proud to say that on monday, as we expand voting hours this week, i get that with community stake holders, labor leaders, state leaders, to have a press conference to remind people. because this is really one of those things that feels like thieves in the night. this is something they wanted to fly under the radar. we know that in august people are focused on their children's little league games, vacationing, and going back to school. but as you have so eloquently pointed out, people are paying attention because this issue will not decide what ohio was or is, but what it will be. and the nation is watching. because this is going to be a barometer, a litmus test, for the rest of the country to see how this issue one shakes out.

if this issue passes, we will be in a terrible situation as a state and as a country moving forward. the other thing i would be remiss to say, in addition to raising the threshold from a simple majority to a supermajority of 60%, it also raises the qualifications just to get the initiative on the ballot. going from 44 counties to 88. this means that one little county, one little county can hold up an entire initiative for the state. and so, this is why it is so important to vote no. this is 100 years of precedent that has worked well for the east state of ohio, so there is no need to change it now. what we know is that when things don't shake at well, the numbers don't look good for the republicans, what do they do? if you can't bake them, chat them. that they're playbook, that's what they can i do. >> let me ask you about something you said. to get our viewers context, there has been a huge influx of money on both sides of the special election. we talk about the attention this race is getting.

some are calling it a proxy war on abortion rights. you have a pro 60% threshold group called protect our constitution, that has raised four point $9 million. 4 million of those dollars came from one person, one gop megadonor, who is actually not even in ohio. he is in illinois. what is this influx of cash say about the stakes of this race and how far republicans are willing to go to attack reproductive rights? >> this issue one is really about protecting the peoples one person one vote rule, the majority rule. and when you have special interests, the wealthy and well connected, spending this time of money, those will be the only people who have the power to make changes in the future if this issue one successfully passes. that is why it is so critical that we vote no on issue one, so that we can maintain our democracy and protect the freedom of the people to make their own decisions.

and, yes, this is a proxy for the abortion rights. secretary of state -- secretary of state said the quiet part out loud. he said this is 100% about abortion. and as you pointed out, four of the six states during the midterms did not meet that 60% number. and so, they are very intentional, very exact, very deliberate in making these, setting the standards to 60% because they know it will be nearly impossible for that to pass. but we are paying attention. people are showing up and they are fired up and they are fed up. and what i'm alex i'm excited about is that despite these oppressive efforts of the secretary of state, people are paying attention. and it looks like the numbers are on our side. but we cannot take our foot off the gas. we have to make sure we push through to tuesday, and make sure that everyone shows up, so that they can have their voice and their vote counted in the future elections. >> all right, democratic congresswoman shontel brown of ohio, something we will be watching very closely, we'll have you back on the show it once we get the result. thank you so much for joining us tonight. ahead, a look at the judge who

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luck of the draw. that is how the vast majority of judges are signed a criminal case across the country. chutkan and is an obama appointee who served on the bench for nearly a decade is not new to january 6th federal cases. in fact, she is known for handing down some of the toughest penalties to the capitol rioters. she is one of two dozen d.c. judges who have collectively sentenced nearly 600 defendants for their role in that attack. her colleagues often impose more lenient punishments than what prosecutors requested. but chutkan has actually matched or exceeded those recommendations in 19 of her 38 sentences. and this makes are the only d.c. federal judge to go beyond what doj lawyers asked for. interestingly, chutkan has also ruled against trump in the past. november 2021, she rejected his request to block the january six committee from obtaining white house documents with relating to the capitol riot, noting in her ruling that president biden was not obliged to honor trump's claims of

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live from miami, florida. we've got lots of news to cover, and lots of questions to answer. let's get started. deadline drama, a federal judge denies the twice impeached, thrice indicted, one-term ex presidents request for more time to respond to the doj's motion for protective order. we go inside the last-minute twists and turns and trump's legal troubles. plus, that moment msnbc news asked him about a gag order. that's ahead. plus, the deep divide. you've got the most indicted former presidents of all-time