this is the katie phang show. live from miami, florida. we've got lots of news to cover, and lots of questions to answer. let's get started. deadline drama, a federal judge denies the twice impeached, thrice indicted, one-term ex presidents request for more time to respond to the doj's motion for protective order. we go inside the last-minute twists and turns and trump's legal troubles. plus, that moment msnbc news asked him about a gag order. that's ahead. plus, the deep divide. you've got the most indicted former presidents of all-time

surgeon in new polls while his republican rivals can't catch up. i'll ask the lincoln product cofounder, luke wilson, about the republican party's current identity crisis. later, georgia on our mind. fulton county d.a., fani willis, hints that indictments in the election interference case could drop very soon. a key witness who was just subpoenaed join us lies to explain. he'll tell the grand jury about that fake electors plot. all of that and more, it is coming up. a good sunday morning to you all. i am katie phang. now we know about that dramatic ending in the united states women's national soccer team's world cup match against sweden. we're going to get to that in just a moment. we're going to start this hour with the clock ticking down to a serious deadline stemming for former presidents third indictment.

even before he goes before d.c. judge, tanya chunk, and for the first time later this month, she's already dealt him a legal blow. judge tanya chutkan denied more time for a -- trump wanted they thursday deadline and oral arguments. the judge swiftly told trump, no. she stood firm with the original deadline. the protective order being sought, and, part due to trump 's menacing social media post. quote, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. although trump spokesperson claims the post was the definition of political speech, and was in response to the rhino china living, levine, excuse, me dishonest special interest groups and super pacs. just one it seems like trump's legal troubles couldn't get worse, a fourth indictment looms large in georgia's election interference case. fulton county d.a., fani willis, reaffirms, quote, we are ready to go.

all of this isn't keeping the republican front runner off of the campaign trail where he is still complaining about the legal woes he has got himself into. joining me now is nbc news correspondent sue joins us live from columbia, south carolina. julie, did former president trump talk about any of those athena's during his appearance? or did he just try to offer up a platform? >> he delayed a little of both. he certainly did bring up his indictment. he railed against his third criminal indictment is a couple days after he was arraigned on thursday and washington. you are right, this comes a special counsel, jack, smith requested a special order. requesting the trump be limited, essential, even the evidence that he is able to share publicly the evidence that he is able to talk about after that tweet, after the truth social post that he posted. our campaign reporter, embedded with former president jay trailer, actually asked him

yesterday, specifically, what he thinks about this order. if he's concerned about it. he replied, no, no, i'm not concerned. he also touted his rising poll numbers. he continues to climb in the polls, leading his closest contender, florida governor, ron desantis, by double digits. yesterday he spoke in front of a friendly crowd, trump supporters, and south carolina, they're at a republican fund-raiser, he slammed special counsel, jack smith. he called him sick and deranged. he certainly did not listen to the latest warning coming from the special counsel and federal prosecutors in terms of not talking about this case. he also went up to vice president, mike pence, whose former running mate in current 2024 rival on truth social criticize him. he called him, quote, delusional. this comes as pence played a major role in the 2020 election interference probe against trump. all of this, the campaign trail, and the legal troubles, coming together here in one. >> julie, thank you for getting us started.

here with me now onsite, danny danny cevallos. legal scholar, one of the smartest lawyers i know. danny, let's talk about this and some specifics. let's talk about this protective order. i talk to joyce vance about protective orders. u.n.i.'s lawyers, they're commonplace. these are not where. especially in federal court when you're duly with this amount of discovery. put on your criminal defense hat, which i know is easy for you to do because you're one of the best, you're one of trump's lawyers. why are you gunning for the additional amount of time? you get called out by the prosecutor say, you didn't really need this additional time. >> first i would argue that for talking about a matter of days, the judge could've given it to the defense, but that's maybe in a biased defense attorney. these are all important issues. this is no typical protective order. it, arguably, is a protective order of the likes of we've never seen because it addresses exactly what trump has done since the arraignment. of course, as the defense attorney, this part of me that

has an interface bomb like i often do, and my defense attorneys do with their clients. this is, we were just in front of the judge. you were just warned, yet you just went out there on social media and now we're back in court because of what you posted. on the other hand, there is an argument to be made that this is political speech. this is exactly the kind of speech, number one, the war accustomed to a trump. number two, that he will certainly talk about on the campaign trail. this is this prosecution. yes to be able to talk about this prosecution. i don't envy the judge and having to figure out the path between his first amendment protections of political speech, and protecting documents and witnesses as she must in this case. >> let's draw a clear distinction here. at the protective order that's been proposed by the government, one, is used in this particular district court. it's not like it's a total outlier. two, it's actually dealing with the dissemination of discovery. it's not a gag order. that's something that's important to note for our viewers to understand.

julie told donald trump, are you concerned about a gag order? of course he went, whatever about it. there is a difference, danny, between making sure that we protect discovery that could have a chilling effect on potential witnesses like mike pence, for example, forces guy again as defense completely not allowing him to speak about his case at all. >> yes. to that point, i think that could still fall into first amendment problems. here's an example. the government is going to turn over a bunch of things that donald trump, but sometimes criminal defendants, they already had that stuff. if it's an email, text message, something like that. they may already have had it because it was theirs to begin with. then, if he goes in the campaign trail, the obvious cases the government provides him something that is, the defendant never had before, and takes a pdf of, it throws it on social media. that's a problem. there are some gray areas, as an, what about things that trump already owns? what about things that he had irrespective of what the government gave him and discovery?

can he talk about this? can he even post those? i don't think that's as likely a problem. i think it's four more likely that you'll see, his truth social post, you come up to me, i come up to you. those kinds of things, which fall probably more into the gag order basket, but could also be intimidation of witnesses. i imagine a situation where trump's on the debate stage, he turns to mike pence who calls him a rat, or traitor, or snitch. katie, you know that especially in the last decade, prosecutors, they go after people for witness intimidation for say inarguably less than those words. for saying those exact words, and sometimes even less. >> danny let's focus a bit on the opposition. we know the end result. was judge say, no. monday at five as a deadline, mr. trump, you gotta abide. the opposition that was filed by the government made it clear, not only again is this a proposed order that is used in the d.c. courts, right? but number two, rather than spending time complying with the courts order, the defendant drafted a filing as to why he didn't have time.

we also know his defense council, trump's counsel, is doing the rounds today on every single network. spending time on tv instead of doing this confirm. as a lawyer who is ethical obligations to a client, but also to be practicing, to be born in a particular court, what's the fine line here if you're the criminal defense lawyer for donald trump? >> never before has the lawyers activities over the weekend been trackable like this, where you can say, well, if you're asking for more, time i saw you on tv over the weekend. you should have been working on this. the argument could be, look, i have other people in the office or handling this. tv heads can be 5 to 10 minutes, after that i am working very hard on this, judge. look, i tend to err on the side of, give the defense a little more time. don't give them a month, but give them a few days, if they need it. the government makes a compelling argument in their papers. you are right, the defense is really just talking about why they need more time. out there in the east there,

it's already know the trump's defense team, their best offense here is delay. it's an unusual delay, i should put an astricted on it. but the criminals offender seek to defend their case. this is the only criminal defendant who, if they delay it long enough, the case will go away. it must go away. if he is inaugurated while this case is still pending, simply appoints an attorney general to get rid of it, or, that doesn't, work he tries this pardon. the judge in this case may have to think about delay as a tactical advantage. >> ensuring process rights are always preserved. danny, again, i love having you here. thank you so much for being on set. it's always so good to see you. >> i love it here. >> great, thanks. >> let's turn to that breaking news from the women's world cup that we talked about at the beginning of the show. defending champions, team usa, sadly. now they're eliminated after losing to sweden in penalty kicks. joining me now, foreign correspondent molly hunter, who is live in australia. molly, what went wrong?

>> hey,, katie minutes ago we spent a lot of the city. you can see fans trickling behind me. it was a heartbreaker. of course we're in the knockout round. this is the round of 16. someone has to win. this means that after 90 minutes of a scoreless, very hard-fought battle, the u.s. is dominating those first two halves. and went to two halves of extra time, 15 minutes. then it went to -- they went to 17 penalty kicks. sweden 154. that was the full score. that last goal was -- they appeared to save that ball. there was a pause on the field. very nervous fans on both sides. there was a ton of american fans inside that stadium. on review, the rough decided that that ball, realize that that ball went fully over the line. it counted as a goal. now the u.s. really had a kind of fire tonight that we had not seen against the portugal can. there was a lot of criticism

because their last group match. they showed up to play bag and rapinoe came roaring off the bench in the second half. the crowd went wild for that. she missed her penalty kick. this will be her final world cup game. she, this is her fourth, of course. she announced her retirement ahead of this tournament. sweetest friends, katie, are happy tonight. the swedish team moves on to play japan in the quarterfinals. a real heartbreak before the u.s., certainly not the tournament that this team wanted, of course, katie >> well were sad for the u.s., but we're always happy to have, you molly hunter. thank you for oscillating get it out here, giving us the latest. we appreciate you. coming up next, paving the way. how the january six select committees 1200 interviews, and 845-page report, it laid the groundwork for charging trump with conspiracy. all of that evidence. former senior adviser to the january six committee, he's going to join us to explain what is becoming in the pike

next. before that, breaking news out of alaska. a water released from the glacier, you've seen this now, is unleashing catastrophic flooding near juneau. at least one home has been washed away, and others are in danger. people are being urged to evacuate due to fears the riverbank will soon give way. we're going to follow the story all day on msnbc, bring you updates as they come in. we've got so much more the katie phang show ahead, keep it right here. here slicing their meats fresh. that's why this pro proffers the new grand slam ham. so does this pro. i just love a grand slam... ham. and if we proffer it, we know you'll proffer it too. i knew he'd love that sandwich. pano ai chooses t-mobile for business for 5g solutions... ...because t-mobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. bug spray works best... when your family actually wears it.

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around and find out. last week, donald trump pleaded not guilty at his third criminal arraignment in four months. these charges were brought by special counsel jack smith are the most serious, by far. stemming from trump's unsuccessful attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election, and corruptly install himself as president for another four years. now, if you feel like you've

heard all of this before, it's because you have. thanks in no small part to the sprawling public investigation by the january six house select committee. despite the committee interviewing 1200 people, and concluding with the final report totaling 845 pages, they reportedly didn't get to half of what they wanted to. well, it looks like jack smith is coming to finish the job. joining me now, former republican congressman from virginia, denver riggleman. he's also the author of the breach, the untold story of the investigation of january 6th. denver, it's always an honor to have you on the show. you and i speak all the time. we talk about how your service is a senior technical adviser to the 16 committee, how you were in the facts. you are in the evidence, that's what you dealt, with the data. you now have a chance to digest this most recent indictment for election interference. how much of that indictment lines up with the work that you were doing for the 16 committee?

>> you know, surprisingly it lines up really well. you're talking about a committee that did a lot of interviews. we saw a lot of data. what surprises me as i look back at the electors, the people they called in to talk about the electors scheme. i saw how many took the fifth. i'm wondering, you know, when you're doing a public trust investigation like the congress, katie, as your, where is not a criminal investigation. you don't really have the leverage to get the information that you need in a law enforcement authority way. that's something you have with the fbi, doj, when you do in a congressional investigation. while i'm watching this play out, it's lining up with the data we saw two. i wish i could go into the actual specifics of the text messages, and also the phone records. we really do see the electors talking to mark meadows, but also the phone call sent a vigils like people in the white house, or the white house planners. it is lining up down the road. i think we're going to see this

more. >> you know, debra, let's talk about what's going to come down the road. their eyes currently six unindicted coconspirators. there's been a lot of talk about it being strategic on jack smith's part to only go after donald trump right now. do you think the prosecution continues to plan for some of those coconspirators that are on indicted to cooperate, and if they choose not to do so, to their folly, i think. do you think we might see more charges, and more indictments down the road? >> katie, i can't imagine we wouldn't see more charges. i, there is so many people who were involved. if you look at the 20 -- if you look at the text messages, it's also the amazing amount of virtual communications we saw while outside of text messages, katie. i think that we are so, we have different levels, you know, we had six or seven different groups that were involved in january six. from plowing rally planners, trump's family, trump's cabinet. we also the doj charges. we had the oath keepers and proud boys, state legislators,

all of those were groups that were actually coordinating with sometimes only one, i would say, one hop away as far as communication is concerned, which really surprise this when we started digging into the phone records and things like that. i think on the command and control, side and even on the violence side, even though we've seen those targeted with seditious conspiracy convictions, i think we'll see more people, especially on the money side. that is one thing, as you know, katie, that's the hundreds of millions of dollars that this generated. i think that's something that we're going to see. really, the amount of money that was funneled into the campaigns, and into donald trump's packs. >> i'm so glad you brought that up. i also like to follow the money. in your book, the bridge, you laid out a roadmap of trump's indictments. you say the former chief of staff, mark meadows, tweets of the rosetta stone. where's mark meadows? how can you not have the chief of staff figure more prominently and this indictments? is he, i've always thought he's

a co-operator. he's had his own federal exposure, his own state exposure. what's going on? whereas mark meadows? >> hey, katie, you know the first thing i read was the actual coconspirator the -- i didn't read any description of mark meadows. i believe that he is probably, i think he's a massive part of this investigation. especially if he gave up his emails, which we saw a lot of, that also. i think people need to go back and read, it wasn't over 200-page violent by the january six committee concerning mark meadows. if you're talking about emails from individuals conducting the cyber investigations. you, know in this county, and also some of the people with this 80, geo people of that up. meadows was involved in every single facet of this. from follow the money, to the fake cyber vessel geisha, and to use a national assets, or task gain in order to look a foreign interference that was completely faked. it's interesting. i think mark meadows has a lot to say about every single person that's indicted, and

those -- who think we should all applaud mark meadows, i think he'll be the mvp of this investigation. >> i'm only going to get flowers for flowers or. to denver, i have left than a minute. i have to ask you this. you want to talk about the war, and a continuing war on democracy. i want to ask you about the fact that some of the republican candidates say that they'd be willing to pardon donald trump if he is convicted, and if they win. what are your thoughts, quickly, on that? >> those are just cynical individuals who are looking into responded to the base. they don't care about the american people. they don't care about getting to the nomination. this is voting for them on this, level fundraising. it's a cynical way of looking at the world. i think history tellers acute, katie, and other individuals looking at facts, who are going to make the difference on this more to protect our democratic institutions. >> well we always need people like you, jen, barr doubtless process and analyze, and get to the truth. denver, thank you, as always, for joining me. i appreciate it. >> thank, you katie. >> still to come on the katie phang show, wake up call. the rough reality for never

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the chase ink business premier card is made for sam who makes, everyday products, designed smarter. genius! like 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more, so sam can make smart ideas, a brilliant reality! chase for business. make more of what's yours. indictments and inviting seem to be the new ideology for republicans. there is former president donald trump's mugshot stream astute will always blindly stand by his side as the indictments pileup. then, at the far end of the spectrum, are the never trumpers. they hope a new leaders can trounced trump to keep him out of the white house, but lead the party to power. so far this year, almost every republican candidate has been hesitant to go after the twice impeached, thrice indicted former president by name. why? well they don't want the political repercussions of poking them all gobert. just like mike pence, trump's

former vice president, who was almost hate at the hands of rapid 16 to porters, is now also a witness and jack smith's election interference case. what does he get for standing true? polling about 40 points behind trump. 40 points. the latest reuters poll. he's also being called a traitor ad appearances in new hampshire. the guy just can't win. joining me now, rick wilson, cofounder of the lincoln product, media strategist, and author of running against the devil. rick, i said he can't win, and i think it'll probably be true. your organization, the lincoln project, posted this ad regarding trump's maga extremism. i wanted our viewers to take a quick listen to a portion of it. take a quick listen. >> january six committee -- >> the january six committee was a sham. >> the thing is a joke. i don't watch, it it's a joke. a complete charade. >> that show trial committee, the j six committee. >> the january six on select committee. >> on select people, they're on

select. >> rick, i want to start your interview with this question. i think it's important for people to understand. it is not just trump that's the problem. it's whether it's a nominee or not. meaning, you can get rid of, trump can get rid of that cancer, but it doesn't solve all the problems, right? >> not at all, katie. the problem with the party is that their lack of ability to have any self reflection about what trump has done to them politically, ethically, spiritually, morally, in every dimension. the never going to be able to shake loose from the damage he's done. it comes from their fear. i get, it i understand. they're all afraid of him. they want to tow the party line, pretended of thing happens. you know, those people who are all giving us, given away the game, they said the 16 committee is a lie. it's because they knew what would happen. the new folks and denver, adam kissinger, the rest of the committee, they were going to reveal the scope and the depth of the corruption outside the

republican party and trying to steal the free and fair election. >> you know, rick, in an exclusive report from reuters, florida governor, ron desantis, the biggest donor warns that he's going to stop funding his presidential campaign unless the florida governor tracks new major donors and adopt some more moderate approach. is this a wake up call? to your point, is this a wake up call that the dollars aren't going to come if you don't actually become more moderate, and less maga? >> this giant money rob desantis raised in the last year was not montgomery. it was from liberal establishment republican donors. it was from private equity bros. it was from people who run hedge funds. those people are not maga. they desperately wanted something other than the insanity, luis ease, conspiracy, cruelty, all the things that define the trumpian party. they wanted that desperately. what they didn't understand was that ron desantis wasn't that

guy. now they're flirting with glenn youngkin, and hoping for some other miracle. the primary right now, you add up all the rest of them, they still don't surpass trump. i don't say that because i love donald trump and won him back in office, i want him to be in jail for the rest of his life. the political realities are what they are. you are not going to ever break off the party from trump as long as all these candidates are saying, will, of course all pardon him. these are real crimes. i will not put my dear leader in jail. that's an absurdity. and they understand that the leader of the republican party as a career criminal, who attempted to subvert a free and fair election in an illegal conspiracy, he has to be held to account, then they're never going to recapture the republican party. it's dead and rod enon the field. >> let's hasten that. then earlier this, week former

vice president mike pence's campaign unveiled new campaign's leg unveiling the phrase,-to-one. as this -- about not agreeing to overturn the election results. let me be clear, folks, pence is no hero. he's got no chance. rick, should pence and the others who are faded to lose, and i agree with, you let's speak practically about who's going to get this nomination, should they still go full now? why wait? why not just go for him now? >> look, there is the fear of the mob the trump controls. right now, there is being put to the test in d.c. over trump's threats on truth social, his dollars to a platform. that fear is not an adequate excuse. it's an excuse, not a reason for their silence. they all understand that the party is defined by trump, but if they want a true pathway out, and a couple of them have made the right noises. we've heard, chris christie,

they can't win, but they can speak the truth. i encourage them to do so. for the good at the country, they should do so. until all of them are willing to stand up and say the following thing, i will not vote for donald trump. if he's may nominee in this party, i will vote for joseph robin, and biden. until they're able to play down like that, it's play acting. >> rick wilson, i've gotta go, but i'm going to give you one question, and i want one answer. 2024 presidential race, donald trump versus joe biden, who wins? >> joe biden if they do everything right. it's a narrow path. >> rick wilson, always appreciate the honesty. thanks for joining, we appreciate it. coming up, the anti authoritarian age. donald trump's multiple indictments sending shockwaves through the nation's legal and political landscapes. why does my next guest that? the indictments are actually a good thing for the country.

professor ruth make sense of it all, coming up next. you're watching the katie phang show. keep it right here on msnbc. it righhet re on msnbc. to small towns, and on main streets across the us, you'll find pnc bank. helping businesses both large and small, communities and the people who live and work there grow and thrive. we're proud to call these places home too. they're where we put down roots, and where together, we work to help move everyone's financial goals forward. pnc bank. bug spray works best... when your family actually wears it. ♪♪ get odor-free eight hour protection from mosquitoes and ticks without the ick. zevo on-body repellent. people love it. bugs hate it. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪

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moments. now his most recent threatening post has a virts authoritarian signaling, his campaign is doubling down, calling it, quote, the definition of political speech. joining me now, new york university history professor, and the author of strongmen, from mussolini to the presents, ruth ben-ghiat. ruth, it's always too nice iselin time with. you always land such a perspective for us to understand how all this. vets we kind of gets deep in the weeds sometime on the legal issues, et cetera. you really give us the context. let's start with that post. if you go after me, i'm coming after you. trump's authoritarian language is clear. so how alarmed should we be that this kind of rhetoric is coming from the 2024 republican front runner who already promised to dismantle any guardrails to presidential power if he manages to get reelected. >> very. we need to take trump very seriously. i wish people had taken him more seriously and 2016 when he

said that he could stand on fifth avenue and shoot someone. that was the first presidential candidate saying he should someone. he didn't lose any followers. he said he was going to be loved because he's lawless. now we have years, later, we had a coup, of course, the violent coup. we had the whole system being kind of infected by this poison where the second most popular candidate, ron desantis, is saying if i get in on the first day, we're going to slip some throats. this is not a democrat with a small d politician speak, this is how leaders like putin and former head of the philippines, duterte. that's how they speak. >> ruth, what key elements of the authoritarian playbook that you know so well do you see? you've read trump's indictment in the 2020 election interference case. >> yes, it's really interesting to frame it that way.

you have, first of, all the attention in the first party incitement to propaganda. this is absolutely key, that the, you know, his skill at spreading lies. by the way, people are wondering why trump's lawyer is doing all of this, rather than working on his defense. it's because every moment, this is especially an important moment, because he's on the defense, to get that poisonous propaganda out there to the mainstream media. to those audiences. so they never, propagandist. key then you have the role of the elites, elite in a blur. those are -- two authoritarians. especially in a coup situation, you always have coups, they happen fast, they are prodded to planning by many people. we've seen that. then we have the recourse to violence. we, ceo, trump wanted to use the insurrection act, bring up

the military. he actually had a civilian army. that's the new playbook, it's used bolsonaro as well. you can't get the military, you've got your own civilian army of thugs to do your work. >>, with talked about the use of others to enable and authoritarian like donald trump. how important is it to ensure that the world leader, the boss, as he's called sometimes, is held just as accountable, as much as the head bashers of the crew, and the ones in the suits? >> it's absolutely key. somebody with a personality, as robust as trump, and this is why the presidential race is such a strange race. no one can -- because there's a leader there. so, you know, history shows if you don't hold that leader to account, then all of the enablers, and the next trumps waiting in the wings, they feel that they can get away with it too. the rule of law is not

validated. >> we, with you and i had the privilege of speaking, and i, gas maybe a week ago. you said that trump was a competent authoritarian. i chuckled a little bit at the adjective competent, not because they disagree with you, but because i'm stuck in this weird place. i don't think trump, i think trump could be crazy like a fox. they don't want to underestimate his intelligence. he is prone to bumbling. he's prone to screwing up. i don't think january six was a screw up. in fact, i think that by the skin of our teeth, save the republic. this is because of some people who said, you know what, we're going to be stalwart, we're going to protect what's left of our democracy at the hands of donald trump. what do you say to people, ruth, that think that perhaps will be hyperbolic when we have these conversations about authoritarians? when you compare donald trump to people like putin. >> that is such an interesting issue. i can say that and history, people didn't take many of

these fascists and authoritarian seriously. you know, the germans thought that hitler was a ranting, they said he looked like a waiter, that he was a ranting full. mussolini was full of bluster. so it's easy to not take them seriously because they are loose cannons. the territory was the same. he said all kinds of crazy things, bolsonaro, they all do this. by the time you realize how organized they actually are, the things they care about, it's too late. >> i'll just note as i'm saying goodbye to you that bolsonaro left brazil. and comes to, where? florida. the land of ron desantis. no coincidence there. as, always it's the pleasure to have you on. thank you so much. >> it was a pleasure. >> up next, george on our minds. all eyes on the peach shades fani willis readies a potential

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beefing up security around the fulton county courthouse ahead of unanticipated fourth indictment of donald trump. this time, for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results and that state. the sheriff's office there says that starting tomorrow through august 18th, they're going to close the roads near the courthouse. this is in addition to the orange barricades that are already in place around the courthouse building. a crucial part of the probe involves a group of republican fake electors who met back in december of 2020 to sign a certificate falsely declare that trump had won georgia in the 2020 election. my next guest actually stumbled

upon that meeting, snapping this picture that you're seeing right here on your screen before being asked to leave. now, let's fast forward to this past week. district attorney, fani willis and her team, they want to know what he knows. again. and with the subpoena and his hand, he's prepared to testify in front of them both, the fountain county grand juries. joining me now, independent journalists, george chidi. george, talk a little bit about what happened in december of 2020 at the republican, quote, education meeting. i put that in quotes because i'm sure you're going to explain why. >> sure thing. so let's look at this. i was there because i was concerned that there would have been an election, bylaws essentially. we've been seeing three percenters, and proud boys protesting at the capitol. i was there to bear witness. an old friend of mine, who we happen to be one of the republican electors, passed me in the hallway that day. the day that the election, the

electoral vote was taking place. i followed him into a room with the camera going. it turns out that that was the room that the republican electors were meeting. they didn't want me there. i was there maybe 20 seconds before they hustled me out the door. hasn't been hustled out of the door, i asked, what kind of meeting is this? a woman there was spotted, this is an education meeting. then the close the door behind me. as a turns out, that seems to be significant. >> i obviously, at the, and we found it what happened. you've read the new indictment from jack smith, georgia figuring dominantly in that indictment. let's be clear, this is the second time that you will be testifying in front of a grand jury. the force was that special grand jury, they issued a report. now, you're going to be testifying before the two grand juries in fulton county. your journalists. and a piece you vote for the

intercept, you spoke about feeling conflicted about testifying, saying, quote, journalist should not be testifying in front of granaries. we are not agents at the governments gathering intelligence to be used in prosecutions. george, like i said, you've done it before, and you'll do it again. why did you decide to ultimately testify? >> again, i think democracy is, to some degree, at stake here. whether or not we can decide how are going to cover ourselves in ways that do not involve shooting people. or, storming the capitol. i think that that is a valid defense of journalism, without a democracy we don't have journalism. so, i'm reluctant. oh don't like the idea of potentially being an agent of the government in this regard. i have to have a somewhat adversarial relationship with power in order to do my job

effectively. i tell people things that folks in power don't want the public to know. this abuse could be an intimidation tactic. i don't think it's actually been abused in the situation. >> based on what you know, because you are in atlanta, and your familiarity with not only your involvement with this investigation, but as well as what's been going on with the d a fani willis, how confident are you that the indictment, or indictments, floral, that will be issued by these grand juries, or grandeur, a skis me, how confident are you that they will include donald trump? >> i am onshore, to be perfectly honest. one of the precedents to look at is what happened in michigan, where the fake electors were indicted. donald trump wasn't. it is entirely possible that

pattern will hold in georgia. on the other hand, there is the perfect phone call to the secretary of state's office, which i think is a qualitatively different piece of information. i don't want to make a call, and of honestly, f i'll be testifying in front of the grand jury, i don't want to display essence of i want this outcome. i need to be able to provide information in a way that is essentially neutral. >> which it will be. i appreciates wanting to stay in that particular all -- i last question to you before i let you go, secretary of state in georgia, he's actually said in response this last indictments come out against trump, he feels sorry for america, but he says we need to move on. we need to move on from all of this. what does this tell you about the state of play for the republicans in georgia view of a fake electors scheme, and the

secretary of state he was a part of says, there's nothing to see here, people, let's move on? >> raffensperger, all of 2020, he still a republican. on some really basic levels. trump doesn't win in georgia. the trump he is canada that have won over the course of the last two years have failed. he is looking forward to whether or not republicans will remain in control of the state government. i think he believes that with some reason, if the republican party continues to cling to trump, they are going to cough up this state. he's worried about that. >> george tedium, so grateful you took the time to join, us to tell us what your experiences were. like i am going to be looking out to see what happens in fulton county in the upcoming weeks. thanks for joining us this morning. >> anytime. >> tanks to all of you for

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deadline judge chutkan gives donald trump until tomorrow to respond to the special counsel's requests for protective order and the january 6th trial. my all-star panel will discuss the legal and historical impacts of this case. as we mark a key anniversary for the democracy trump attacked. a word of caution as present moment told president biden about trump. and while democrats should listen. and all eyes on ohio. why two state special election could be a turning point in the battle over abortion. i am jonathan capehart and this is the sunday show. american democracy became a true democracy 58 years ago today. for on this day in 1960,