no other in ecuador. >> and samantha smith, no doubt about it. thank you. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪ hey there, everyone. 4:00 in the new york. i'm alycia menendez in for nicolle wallace. the past 24 hours tying back to the fact a former president history of violent rhetoric linked to extremist violenceat and state charges and could be on the verge of a fourth indictment. learning more about the man shot and killed by the fbi as they served an arrest warrant over threats made to president biden and others. the "new york times" reports craig d. robertson, 75, charged with threatening to shoot other elected officials including alvin bragg, the manhattan

district attorney as well as making threats against law enforcement officials according to court documents filed a day earlier in u.s. district court in salt lake city. he owned numerous firearms including a sniper rifle. the complaint laid out his history of threats on social media. other subjects of mr. robertson's threats, attorney general merrick garland, governor gavin newsom of california, letitia james, the new york attorney general. this at a time donald trump is directly going after prosecutors who either indicted him like jack smith or alvin bragg or maybe on the verge of doing so. like fani willis. donald trump airing a tellvision add in atlanta and other tv markets attacking the fulton county district attorney charging him with his fourth criminal indictment. the new ads released sunday accuses willis of previous wrongdoing. also names attorneys who already brought charges against trump including manhattan district

attorney alvin bragg and special counsel jack smith. now, not showing it to you. filled with conspiracies and falsehoods and comes at an exceptionally tense moment in this country. fani willis is addressing this in a letter to staff saying it contains derogatory and false information and urges her team to stay above the fray. the letter obtained by nbc news reads in part "we have no personal feelings against those who investigate or prosecute and should not express any. this is business. it will never be personal. we have a job to do. in this office we prosecute based on the facts and the law. the law is non-partisan. you should feel no need to defend me." "i shared with this office 1/1,000 of negative derogatory comments received and invited you into an hour of my typical day. iable not concerned with calls, emails or ads and you should not concern yourself with them. your instruction from me ignore

all the noises and keep doing your job with excellence." joining our conversation. former assistant director forecounterintelligence at the fbi, and charlie sykes, editor at large for the bulwark. here at the table with me former acting assistant attorney general for national security u.s. department of justice, marian mccord. start with you. talk to us what we waged out of utah and timing and the president landing in salt lake city? >> clear tr the court documents filed and also from the reporting that this is a man who's been making threats for some time. it wasn't like a new suddenly the president's coming i'm going to make a threat. he's been making threats for months and months now, but here he had opportunity, because he lives in provo. not far from salt lake city, and we have the president actually going there. so i think that really heightens the level of danger here, because a lot of times i think there's confusion about whether a threat made online is serious.

whether it's somebody talking big, using threatening language but with no intent to carry it out. now we see there was an intent at least to try to carry it out. we see because of the arrest and the cache of weapons seized he had the means to carry it out. certainly he was, you know, in a proximity. not going to suggest he would have ever been successful in actually getting close enough to the president to gelt off a shot, but you know, he was preparing to make an effort to go do this. when we talk about what we can take seriously as a threat and what is just talk, we don't always know. here, you know, for good reason, the fbi had been tracking this, paying attention to this and knew it was time to take action, but we don't always know that, and part of the problem with the rhetoric that you talked about in your opening is, you can't watch everybody. you can't know what everyone's planning, and there will be individual actors who do seek to take action.

this isn't the first time we've seen this, as you know. you know, after the search at mar-a-lago there was an attack and attempted attack on the fbi in cincinnati. so there's others like that. that is, it's very hard for law enforcement to know which threats online are going to materialize into actual physical, you know, attempts. >> frederic, in the room where those conversations happen and threats are assessed. talk to us about how those decisions are made ordinarily, and the complications of making those choices in this moment? >> yeah. the in this moment part is something worthy of lots of discussion, but let's address how the decisions are made. first of all done in concert with the u.s. attorney's office, of course, who's going to have to prosecute a case if they agree charge. in this case three federal, distinct federal charges that were applied here in the arrest warrant. a big factor here is specificity as to be target, time, method

and location of where the threat will be enacted. we see this throughout his multiple threats. not only against the same person but against various people. really graphic specificity. really too much to go into here in this hour in terms of disturbing content, but it was all there, and enough for a u.s. attorney and ultimately a judge who would accept this easily as charging. and looking at approaching him. approached early on in the spring. asked him what's up with the threats? he essentially blew the fbi off saying, hey. we're done. come back with a warrant. and immediately thereafter the subject starts posting threats against the fbi agents. so, you know, he's doubling down on the threats here. so now, with regard to this environment. yeah, look. a lot of hand wringing here, hey, if we do this.

guy the elderly. he's known in the community. the guy goes to church. this isn't going over well? how do we do it? do it safely. bring a s.w.a.t. team. turns out to be a barricade situation. not surprising. and there's a back and forth. you can even see some of it in a video by a neighbor released. hey, get the hands up. i'm told repeat commands given and repeatedly refused to comply, even, heard reports that a drone was sent in to scout out what's going on with this guy and then some negotiation. all of it failing. ultimately untold and we're going to hopefully hear more from the salt lake city fbi office this afternoon. ultimately a threat possessed to an agent and an agent fired back at this guy because there was a weapon, i'm told, that was involved. so the bigger picture here, moving forward, look, this is not the last one we're going to see. quite the opposite. this is still terrorism. people can be incited by a

leadership figure painting another group or individual as less than human. dehumanizing them. they're evil, bad, therefore making it easier for people to carry out violent acts on behalf of someone else's ideology that they adopted. telling you, recall after 9/11 the, made fun of the color-coded threat level we had for a while. today's orange, yellow, it's red. if we had that in place we would be changing the color and escalating the threat level as trump continues to face charges and charges. >> read you a little from nbc news reporting on craig robertson. alleged threat to bragg including calling him a political hack linked to george soros and plotting to assassinate nim a parking garage, the document said. it's impossible not to draw the line from trump's rhetoric to the people like this who care to be radicalized. >> yeah. it's a dangerous situation and in fact it is escalating.

especially since donald trump cited he is going to, he's going to be running ads. the element of his rhetoric seems to be intensifying against prosecutors, judges. perhaps even jurors here. and i think the people need to understand, you know that this may sound like, okay, it's donald trump again. same old playbook, but he does seem to be ramping it up at exactly the moment when you would think that calmer heads would say, hey, we need to lower the temperature, because this is dangerous. there's lots of guys like this. it's also worth remembering that jack smith did not indict donald trump for inciting violence of january 6th but he did in his indictment say that donald trump was exploiting it. donald trump does both. incites and exploits. but this is important to understand. that in donald trump's mind and atmosphere of fear, chaos and violence actually works for him, he think us.

looks at that goes, yeah. i -- i can work with this. this will benefit me. people are afraid even though i can deny i am directly negotiating with these attacks, but he is -- he's pointing on the fire, kerosene poured on the fire daily basis, it's ramping up and going to get worse over the next year and a half. you would think that people in the legal community and the political community, religious institutions, would at this moment begin to say, we need to back off. this is a dangerous moment. >> speaking to that dangerous moment, the federal judge assigned to the trump election case, just chutcan, receiving security. nbc news saw her escorted by three u.s. marshals. anyone has to prepare, people care has to prepare for possibilities's violence. >> indeed.

a sad state of affairs to see a judge have to have what looks like now maybe a full-time security detail. nbc news reported that this was spotted even as she was inside her own courthouse grabbing coffee. in the cafeteria. that's where we are today. look, we have to extend the threat concerns to, of course, witnesses who are already being targeted by trump and his cohorts. namely vice president pence, who's likely to testify. steve bannon's after him online and so has trump calling him all kinds of names. and the prosecutors, of course, and the jury, of course. the many jurors, all of this in a high-threat environment. they all can't be protected all the time. i keep telling people law enforcement has to get it right every single day and the bad guys only have to get it right once. >> talk about that letter from fani willis. your reaction? to her staff? >> i read the fuller before coming on and it's over a page

long. she's really i think trying to steel her staff and attorneys for the onslaught. she's been experiencing it quite some time now but not necessarily everyone in her, on her team experiencing it. certainly if a grand jury indictment is returned next week or in the coming weeks, there will be other prosecutors involved. others within her office involved and i think she's trying to steel them for what's to come and get them to compliment to the resolve it takes. i will say as a former prosecutor, prosecutors are used to being in situation where is they are disliked by the defendants they are prosecuting, but typically we really haven't had to worry that much, say, "we" i've not been a prosecutor six years but a prosecutor a very long time and i didn't worry much about physical violence, because prosecutors are pungable. right? you harm one, there is another. your case is not going away if you harm the prosecutor.

same with the judge. different for witnesses. right? so it's one reason why we always have been, as prosecutor and as our system, judges and everyone, so careful to protect the security of witnesses, because they are in unique positions. there's not necessarily other people that can take their place and i think, you know -- what's interesting now is that i think because that notion that prosecutors are fungible doesn't seem to matter to people like donald trump and his ardant supporters who just want vengeance, and unfortunately people are out there willing to take action on that. >> one of the things stood out to me about the letters, a chilling effect, asking her staff do not worry or allow this to concern you. also the subjects of don't allow it -- don't allow you to make an unforced error. right? >> yeah. >> don't get caught up in all of this such that you look away

momentarily from doing the job you were assigned to do. >> right. puts it on her, too. don't feel the need to defend me. because she knows she's getting most of the incoming and i'm sure people are close to her in that office who are very offended and want to say things about it. eye route. you're right. saying things is falling into were the trap donald trump and others set. stay above the fray and do their jobs. exactly what she said and have security, need to be protected, and there's a whole growing circle of people who need security. >> frank, a section of the department of homeland security's most's recent terrorism bulletin that reads, in the coming months factors that can mobilize individuals to commit violence include their perceptions of the 2024 general election cycle and legislative or judicial decisions pertaining to sociopolitical issues. notice, of course, dbt is not mentioned by name. hard to imagine this isn't taken

to account his legal troubles his position as republican front-runner. the moment we find ourselves in. >> indeed. as i said before, if we had that color-coded threat level we'd be rising it right now. it's really inherent in the dhs bulletin. you're reading from it. a unique aspect to this. the word "unique" seldom used correctly, but the fbi is charged with getting out ahead of the threat. right? salt lake city, the kags is illustrative here. they're used to being threatened during an arrest. there's no such thing as a routine arrest. want to have your body armor on. you want to have a contingency plan do it right and safely go home. in this environment, the fbi charged with not only getting out in front of domestic threats but also being the target of the threat also at the same time. that's unique. that's different for the fbi. they've got to start thinking

differently. this kind of thing where you're not only going to do a search warrant or arrest warrant. you're going to have a subject who wants you dead. not because you are just arresting them. rather because someone's told him, you are evil, and that's a new environment and it's going to have to change the way they operate, study subjects they're about to arrest. tactical methods. it's really a time to rethink how they operate in a threat environment. >> mary, a new environment saying nothing to the fact hearings arraignments trials of a former president potentially in four cities and going to have both current president biden and former president trump crisscrossing the country in run-up to a presidential run. that is unprecedented. that is wild. >> it is. it's going to take more than just the fbi and dmplt jose. it's going to take a lot of cooperative work with state and local law enforcements and a lot of -- the dhs, and secret

service involvement. so, you know, really is, never seen anything like this. if there really are, is a fourth indictment and proceedings going on in this many different states, it's an awful lot for our law enforcement to keep track of at the same time. we've got court proceedings themselves, having their own security arrangements. then other things. right? the president going to make a speech. even the former president going to make a speech can also spur activities. a huge challenge as frank says for law enforcement and also a time for people, the american people, to be vigilant and to report things that they find suspicious. if they have a neighbor, i mean, not suggesting mccarthyism, but if they have a neighbor who is stockpiling weapons, talking about prosecutors or the president or even the former president, you know, in ways that suggest violence, these are the things that need to be passed along to the fbi. >> what a moment we find ourselves in. i wonder what you think as our

justice system, is it equipped to handle a divest like donald trump who has a massive platform and as we all know a history of spoking violence? >> certainly hope so, but it's never face add threat like this. it has never face add challenge like this. again, we use the word "unprecedented" too much but this is unprecedenteded to have a former president of the united states being locust of all of this. we know how he's going to behave. in many ways feels he is baiting the judges. baiting prosecutors. upping the ante on all this. we are tested pt a massive stress test for the political system and the judicial system and to your point. what a moment we are in now. i was listening to frank thinking how many years after 9/11 the major threat to the country was international terrorism. islamic extremist terrorism. now the greatest threat with

face is internal. it's other americans. other americans listening to the former president of the united states, and that is an extraordinary moment we find ourselves in. >> extraordinary indeed. thank you so much for spending time with us. and all you others, when we come back, donald trump's two co-defendanting in the classified documents case were in a florida courtroom this morning. an update on that hearing and unprecedented request coming from the ex-president in this case. plus, prosecutors in the other case, the election interference case laying out the trial unfolding lining up with the 2024 political calendar. later in the show, supreme court justice claires thomas extensive network of billionaire friends and secret luxury perks. new reporting going much, much further than what was already known. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. do not go anywhere. um kellye champagne taste...

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morning the two men standing accused of a criminal conspiracy alongside trump in the documents case accused of enabling him, hiding some of the country's most sensitive intelligence secrets. trump was not present in court. he and his personal valet, walt nauta, pleaded again not guilty to the latest charges. a new obstruction accounts over alleged attempts to delete surveillance footage showing them trying to hide documents. their newest co-defendant mar-a-lago property manager carlos day la vaira failed second time to enter a plea because a florida attorney hasn't filed appropriate paperwork to represent him.

what happens to trump the co-defendants one of the many opening questions in this case as well as how the evidence should be handled. for their part team trump delivered an especially bizarre pushback to special counsel wednesday asking the federal judge to order the government to fully re-establish secure facility of trump's private mar-a-lago residence so that he and his lawyers can discuss the very same national security documents in question in the very same place prosecutors say he kept hem illegally. bring in politiconastic correspondent msnbc contributor betsy and mary back with us. betsy, start with whatevered in court. ordering the new florida attorney to return to court tuesday. doesn't sound like he'll enter a play then. >> i would think so. once represented we can very much expect him to enter a non-guilty plea along the same lines as trump and nauta had. dealing in trump world.

things are always unpredictable. making guesses is tempting fate. that said, there haven't yet been a dramatic signal that jay olivera will break wib the way he and trump are handling this. appears to be a fellow traveler with other two co-defendants in the case. now, of course, in this pretrial moment that's going to go on actually for months of a wide, significant number of hearings in all of these cases operating on three different tracks with each different prosecution. and we can expect little bits and pieces of new information and details that come out of each one of them. so it's just going to be an interesting and complex time for people tracking the trump story and that's the biggest thing to keep an eye on. finding ways to keep tabs on the increasing complexity that people are going to see as this plays out. >> right. mary, to the point about that complexity and timeline. judge today denied de la veras

request because the front of judge wants it done before pap question about the timeline and how to handle it with three different defendants. >> to her credit, she's basically pushing back on efforts to delay. per typical, any trump and those associated in cases see delay as one of their main defense strategies. she has a hearing end of the month. i don't think she wants to reschedule that hearing. she wants him to be represented and get this moving. that's also going to require her at some point to think about what kind of access mr. de la vera's attorney needs, declassified information or he himself. they are not, he and nauta, not charged with mishandling of classified information the way mr. trump is. charged with obstruction counter. a much lesser need to have access to that information. but we have yet to see whether

mr. de la vera's attorney will get clearances and participating in the classified information procedures act hearings. i think this judge who's been more slis tis, of course, of mr. trump than some would like to see saying no. move along. not having until august 21st. >> let's get this started. back to the original request for evidence to be reviewed on a skiff. doj prosecutor said this, the government is not aware of any case in which a defendant has been permitted to discuss classified information in a private residence in such exceptional treatment not consistent with the law. sort of irony of trump asking to use a facility at the very same place where he's accused of mishandling documents in the first place. >> it's -- honestly just -- mind-boggling that after being charged with not safely handling these materials at his estate, trump is saying, hey, pretty,

please, maybe you can trust me this time. send them on back here so i can look at them. the challenge, of course, from the judge's standpoint and prosecutor's standpoint is balancing the need to protect these valuable secrets with the need for this trial not to take forever, and not keep getting pushed back and back and back and back. anytime proceedings involve classified material they're just more complicated and just more time consuming because of the sensitivity of the materials involved because it's so much more complex for prosecutors to move forward with the discovery process where they share what they have with the criminal defendant and with that defendant's lawyers. so it's perhaps not totally shocking that trump's attorneys would shoot for the moon and in making this ironic and bizarre request. it's not completely, completely, completely divorced from the circumstances, but it kind of is. i think likelihood of this happens is microscopic.

>> speaking to the circumstances in their request. trump's attorneys said, "uniqueness of president trump's residence including that it is in a highly protected location guarded by federal agents, previously housed a secure facility approved for not only the discussion but also the retention of classified information." i mean, he's not president anymore. stating the obvious. how would a mar-a-lago skiff even work? >> i don't find this as outrageous as others say. here's why. for one, he is not asking to actually have classified documents be sent back for review. his attorneys made that clear and i think in three different footnotes to their court filing. all they want to do is talk to him about the classified information in a -- in a secure place. they -- so i have a couple points on that. one, how much do they really need to talk to mr. trump about the substance of classified information? he's not going to know what is in all of those boxes and

probably doesn't remember what in the 37 documents nor does he need to know to have a defense. the attorneys might need to discuss among themselves to try to make arguments this information was not closely held by the government. it was known by too many people, et cetera. mostly legal arguments and at some point need to share with mr. trump saying make them or not. but i doubt much discussion that they need to have with him about the substance of the classified documents. second point i'd make is that when people are in government service including presidents and including directors of cia et cetera offer there are skilled skiffs built into their home because they're on call 24/7. makes sense. there was one that already existed at mar-a-lago. i don't know how technical, we krn get into technically what was dismantled and needed to be reinstateded. i actually don't think it's totally crazy to say, just for the purpose of talking about these documents it would, in a

place previously been a skiff, we would like to re-create that as a skiff. just for the purposes of talking about thinks less costly than having mr. trump come to a secured courthouse. i get it it's ironic that this is the very place he mishandled documents. to me what's more in some ways offensive than the fact he wants to go back to the very place he mishandled documents, this is really different treatment. no one else gets to say, fill the skiff in my house to discuss the classified information, because i'm too busy campaigning for office and i'm, you know, too busy to go and see things at a courthouse. this really would be treating him substantially different than other defendants in classified information related cases, although he also is very different. right? we haven't seen anyone like a former president ever accuses of this kind of criminal activity. >> just to underline your point. attorneys argued the mar-a-lago

skiff saving the government money giving logistical hurdles and incredible resources needed when trump travels. that is the argument. talked about complexity. the way those who follow the cases, tell the story of these caseless watch drip by drip. what are you watching for next? >> well, of course, the biggest question is when or if fani willis the fulton county district attorney brings charges against trump. lots of small movement on the other three tracks caulked about. right now everyone's on the edge of seats waiting to see what happens in the next week or two in georgia and within that question, the next biggest thing exactly how many people does she bring charges against? a wide swath of folks? ricco charges against a number of people or narrow it down? we knew fani willis was bringing charges against fake electors of

course participated in trump's scheme to try to claim the electoral college somehow in play. however in jack smith's most recent indictment he signaled some of those ultimate elector could actually be more properly views and victims rather than perpetrators basically depicting them as duped or lied to at least in some cases. so does fani willis' view mash jack smiths or is there divergence and how would that affect criminal defense and anyone she indicts fitting into that category? >> all relying on your side-by-side reading of those indictments on your podcast. betsy thank you for spending time with us. mary, sticking with us. up next for us, trump trying out a possible new defense. this time qualifying his stolen election claims as merely beliefs. not facts. show you a soft launch of this strategy. that's next.

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everything he needs in perpetuity. thanks to autoship from chewy. - i always love that old man. - and he gets the summer house. - what? - [narrator] save more on what they love and never run out with autoship from chewy. my cpa told me i wouldn't qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. their team of independent tax attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligible. [whip sound] take the first step to see if your small business qualifies. this is about a perfect phone call. a call where i'm questioning the election. telling them that in my opinion the election was rigged. i believe i won that election by many, many votes. many, many hundreds of thousands of votes. that's what i think. i won this thing by hundreds ever thousands of votes. that's my opinion. a strong opinion. >> that's my opinion and it's a strong opinion. as the "washington post" pointing out donald trump

deployed what could be his new defense strategy on newsmax last night when it comes to potential charges faced in georgia. fulton county district attorney fani willis expected to take findings from election interference investigation to a grand jury next week. a reminder. here is that perfect phone call trump refers to with georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger that's at the heart of this investigation. >> so, look, all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state and flipping the state is a great testament to our country. >> apparently that was just trump's opinion that he won the election. no pressure to find those votes. back with charlie and mary. all right. talked a lot how many of these legal defense strategies are more meant for the court of public prn than for the

courtroom. opinion. debunk this for us. his opinion shield him from the law? >> his opinion can't shield him from the law. he's trying to get, support the defense that his attorneys are already flagging in the court of public opinion that he could not have had the intent to conspire, to commit a fraud against the u.s. government or conspire to obstruct the official proceeding of congress or even conspire to deprive people of civil rights, because he truly and honestly believed that he had won the election, and that it had been stolen from him. there's a certain, you know, amount that that will do for him, because each crime that he's accused of does require knowledge and some level of intent. so there will be -- >> something for him with a jury? >> with a jury. with a jury, because a jury will at some point have to decide whether they actually believe that he honestly believed he had won the election, that

significant had taken place and believe that in a face of abundant, abundant evidence he was told by everyone around him except a few chosen few there was no evidence to support fraud that would have changed the outcome. told by his attorney general. his white house counsel. the officials in the states we talked to including republican official whose had voted for him and wanted him to win. we'd done our work. we don't find anything. important tells in the diamond says to my friends, you're too honest. says in a national security meeting. we won't dough anything with that. leave it for the next guy and see it in consciousness of guilt when he says, try to prevent information. no significant fraud from getting to people it would impact. like getting to mike pence. no one else talked to mike pence. only i will talk to mike pence. keeps white house counsel out of meetings, might say no

significance evidence of crime. see it all in an indictment and also it wouldn't excuse some of the conduct. right? it would not excuse a scheme to have fraudulent electors meet and vote, cast ballots for him, send those to vice president pence and then have a scheme to pressure him to count those ballots. that's not about your honest belief. your honest belief that you've won, you go to court. he went to court. lost 65 times. that's the end. that's how you act on your honest belief. >> charlie, newsmax interview was interesting and notable both for the argument he is workshopping there and mary said during the break, finally listening to his lawyers to some degree. i want you to take a listen to how that interview on newsmax ended. >> well, we thank you. the american people thank you. i thank you. >> great job. great success. doing a fantastic job. thank you. >> thank you, mr. trump. thank you. >> folks a note.

who's next. accepted election results as legal and final. >> so newsmax, the network currently sued by dominion voting systems no better than air trump's election lies without a disclaimer like that. even if they are "his opinion." >> yeah. defamation suits have consequences. who knew? look, defer to mary about the legal consequences of this, but trump once again trying to gaslight us because we know what he said for months and for years, and how he acted on it. inserting a few phrases that his lawyers want him to insert if is my opinion, my strong opinion, no. obviously it goes to the question what did he know, actually believe in this indictment, but i think that those of us who watch this with our own eyes no exactly what he was saying, what he was doing and why he was doing it. but i thought that was very interesting that newsmax felt

the need to do a disclaimer after talking with the president of the united states. in fact, anybody that's paying attention to these lawsuits knows that anytime donald trump opens his mouth talks about the election, you're going to talking to a lawyer and the lawyer's telling you probably need to run that. >> only made it better, done it live in front of him. charlie sykes, as always, thank you for your time. mary mccord a treat to have you with us at the table. when we come back, learning more about just how bad the situation is with those fires in hawaii. with three dozen confirmed dead. a challenge for first responders to get in and rescue more people. that story's next.

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or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. . working as quickly as possible to fight the fires, evacuate tourists and residents. >> president biden addressing devastating fires in maui. amoving an emergency evacuation. and mass evacuations under way. more than 10,000 without power. we understand the fire exploded out of control amid red flag dry condition. fueled by winds with a passing hurricane.

among the most tragic consequences, lahaina, a seaside town once served capital of the hawaiian kingdom completely destroyed. bring in democratic congressman, who's on the phone, on her way home to hawaii. congresswoman, i believe we have you on the phone. first of all, this is your district. these are your constituents. we want to know how are people doing? >> you know, it's just been absolutely devastating for everyone. i have been getting massive calls and text messages of individuals. lost loved ones, lost homes. trying to find their loved ones. you know? businesses that they know, they work with or grown up with completely gone in just the blink of an eye. this is a lot of heartache. a lot of devastation right now, and people are in shock trying to come to grips with what we've been dealing with the last few days, even. >> i can hear that heartbreak in your own voice, congresswoman. take a listen to what we heard

from someone at the shelter on hawaii describing her particular ordeal. >> my mom's place is gone. my place is gone. pretty much everybody i know -- lost everything that we have. i mean, i haven't been able to action r assess, but everybody told me the front street's gone. >> congresswoman, obviously an ongoing ordeal. give us a sense, though, of what the work ahead is going to look like? >> well, the difficult part, there was just such massive d.j. and devastation we are literally still seeing search and rescue recovery mode now. needing to even just assess the scale of the damage so we know exactly what we're going to need to do to try to make people as whole as possible. that is going to be impossible. lost things that will never be reclaimed but how do we make sure we know exactly what to do to support our communities for the most basic things. food and shelter.

transportation. schooling. an entire school gone. entire historic library i used to love, read books in. one of my favorite. completely gone. so it really is about really trying to assess in the next days and weeks to come the devastation and then really trying to make sure that we aggressively put the full force of the federal government behind getting people to help and the support that they need. not just now, but the next couple of week, months, generations and years that people are going to need our support. >> congresswoman, before we let you go, in interview after interview, nbc news heard one thing again and again, and that is hawaiians don't leave anyone behind. tell us a little bit about your constituents, just exactly how strong they are. >> absolutely. you know, it has been inspiring as well just to watch all of this. everyone is in pain. everyone is in shock. everyone has experienced loss of some sort. and yet the first thing they do

is they look out for each other. you've heard these stories over and over again. you've seen it happening right there at the emergency shelters. this is part of who we are as a people in hawaii. we take care of each other. we look out for each other. while the road ahead is hard, and it's difficult, and it's not going to get any easier in the near future, what we can depend on is the aloha spirit. we're going to stick together. we're going to support each other. we're going to fight like hell and make sure people get the help they need. we're going to come back. we're going to rebuild even stronger. and that's something you can count on. >> congresswoman jill tokuda, who is trying to get home to hawaii. thank you so much for joining us. a quick break and we'll be right back.

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the problem with bringing a case like this in the middle of campaign. the government has no evidence of criminal intent. i'm just representing a client. i'm ensuring that justice is done in this case. president trump is entitled to his day in court, and he'll get it. >> he asked him in an aspirational way. asking is covered by the first amendment. >> if you're going talk about the law, you have to understand what the first amendment says and what it stands for. >> hi again, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york. i'm alicia menendez in for nicolle wallace. a flurry of appearances on talk shows by trump's attorney, all in one day i should add, which came as the guidelines over what donald trump and his legal team can say publicly about the federal election interference case still being worked out in court. tomorrow we will get a clear picture of what judge tanya chutkan will allow defendant trump and his legal team to say. chutkan ordered the prosecution and defense to appear before her

at 10:00 a.m. where she will decide whether to impose a full protective order. the full order would block trump and his team from making public any evidence presented in the case. it's what the prosecution asked for. tomorrow's hearing comes after a busy back and forth between both sides this week summarized by nbc news like this. trump's attorneys john lauro and todd blanche contend that the prosecution's proposed order can too broad and could partly muzzle their client, the front-runner for the presidential nomination. federal prosecutors countered the trump proposed revisions to their order were designed to allow them to try this case in the media rather than in the courtroom. my colleague ken dilanian points out there is also more at stake than publicly divulging the evidence. quote, broader and more consequential issue may still be looming. are there any limits to what trump and his lawyers can say to criticize the case? special counsel jack smith's

prosecutor or heap scorn on the judge? putting judge chutkan in a tough position. ken dilanian saying chutkan faces an impossible dilemma should she decide to impose any restrictions. how can you limit the speech of a candidate for president and what would she do if trump decides not to comply? a proposal for a start day for the trial, january 2nd of 2024. and they estimate the trial could take four to six weeks that is where we start this hour. former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst carol lam is here. and joining me at the table all the way from florida, dave aronberg. he is the state attorney for palm beach county and democratic strategist and public director of the public policy program at hunter college and basel. >> i think the prosecution should have a speedy trial. and as far as protective order,

i think judge chutkan is going to grant it. because why would trump want this information but to intimidate witnesses, to try this case in the court of public opinion. trump's legal team tipped their hand already because his lawyer, lauro, went on all the sunday shows. it's called the full ginzburg. he did that because they warrant their supporters to be riled up. they want to taint the jury pool. i think the judge is going to send a message back. >> every time this legal team puts forward an argument, all of the attorneys at our table, that is not a thing, that is not a legal argument. once they are actually in the courtroom, right, and they are defending their client, what do you expect the argument to be that they make? >> they don't really have many arguments except for the first amendment argument and the advice of council argument that i just did what john eastman told me. both of those arguments require donald trump to testify. and his lawyers do not want him to take the stand. it's a perjury trap. at the very least he could be eviscerated by the

cross-examination. so his lawyers don't want him to take the stand. so i think a lot of stuff is just bluster. in the end, they're going to hope to delay, delay, delay past the election where he can be president again and forces the department of justice to drop everything. but i think judge chutkan is going the expedite this matter. this is going about the first case, in my opinion, that will go t to trial. >> you can expedite the matter, basel and take the calendar and overwlat the presidential calendar, you end up getting in some really tricky territory. >> yeah, that's why someone in any other candidate in the similar situation would have dropped out by new. because why put yourself, your family and the country through all of this? but, yes, running up into the primaries, debates are going to be taking place. all of this gives, as you're saying, the president an opportunity to direct and to create, craft his own narrative about this case. donald trump campaigns as a martyr. it doesn't work for him unless we can convince his supporters

that he is the aggrieved here, he and all of his supporters. when he keeps saying kwet i'm doing this for you" and supporters buy that in large quantities, it sort of creates and finishes that culture circle around him. so, yes, we'll consistently see this on the campaign trail. he'll continue to talk about it. if he were a different candidate that actually had policy position, we might hear those. but that's not going to happen. >> but january 2nd, that as a date when you look at the primary calendar. things are heating up. >> that's right. if you can call it a problem, the problem is that there is nobody else challenging donald trump that will make an effective argument to either silence him or push him out of the race. that's unlikely to happen. everything he is doing, as you say, fuels his supporters. so if it works for him, he is going to make it continue to work for him. but there is no one that's in the foreseeable future that's

going to push him out of the spotlight. that's the problem that they have. >> carol, you wrote a piece last week about how unprecedented this trial will be. you write "it also seems like the special counsel has pulled every lever in his control to narrow and simplify the trial. for example, by indicting only trump and not his sex alleged co-conspirators. but jack smith's indictment still tells a big story about donald trump's desperate and wide ranging attempt to overturn the results of a presidential election. with the limited time on the clock before the 2024 presidential election, this biggest challenge will be telling that story to a jury at quickly as he can." tell us what this trial can look like. how do you imagine it going? >> what i see with this trial as looking like, if you really go through the indictment, single defendant. so simpler in that sense in that you're not going to have six or seven defendants filing motions or having scheduling conflicts or things like that. you've got a single defendant.

but even so, i see 30 to 40 witnesses having to be called. some of them might be brief witnesses. but that's still a lot of witnesses. jack smith gave a trial estimate of i think six to eight weeks. i don't think that's a crazy estimate, but that probably doesn't take into account -- it can't take into account jury deliberations of any substantial length. and there are always things that come up in the middle of trial. so six to eight weeks is sort of an optimistic if everything goes really well and perfectly, which it rarely does. that's where i see that estimate staying. that's where we are in the calendar, january 2nd takes us through to march. he has the criminal trial in new york. alvin bragg's trial coming up in march. >> that is a really big@risk that you just put on that date. understand we do have a date tomorrow. we're going hear from judge chutkan. what do you expect her to say about this protective order? >> i think she is going to grant the protective order. donald trump sent out a message you. come after me, he will go after

you. well, that's going to hang over this hearing tomorrow. and because he said that, i think there is grounds to say no, we're not going to give you the ability to put out this evidence to your followers so they can take action. they can do violence, or at least you can intimidate witnesses. donald trump will say i have first amendment rights. i can say what i want. but not when you're a defendant. as a prosecutor can tell you, once we get a defendant charged, they go to first appearance and the judge will say no, no contact with victims, no alcohol and so forth. these are all righteous normally have. once you become a defendant, you don't have that those rights anymore. >> carol, i wonder if you think judge chutkan might also impose a gag order. talk about the implications of that given this defendant has what i will call a hard time keeping his mouth shut. >> well, a gag order has a lot more first amendment implications than this kind of protective order that is being litigated right now has. a gag order is really saying as the judge had -- not this judge,

but another judge in washington had to say to roger stone a couple of years ago, okay, you've gone too far. you can't talk about the trial at all, using social media or in your speeches. that's a gag order. that is not under consideration at this point. this is a protective order that just talks about his ability to talk about discovery or evidence that is being turned over by the government to the defense team that is a much more common type of protection, in fact, i think in every case i've ever worked on, we have had a protective order. so it's not that unusual. and the parties have been negotiating about it since the indictment. i want to make that clear. both sides have been negotiating. it's just they reached a point where there is some disagreements they cannot resolve between themselves. and so it is going to the judge. >> right. the protective order is not very unusual save for the fact that the defendant in this case is supremely unusual. i want to go back to what ken

dilanian laid out in his piece. what happens to chutkan? the decision she is forced to make if this protective order is granted and then trump does not comply? >> well, when you become a judge, i was a judge for a couple of years, when you become a judge, one thing is really drilled into you, you can't just bang your gavel and say you're in contempt, you violated my order, you're going to jail. as in all things with the law, there is a process that has to take place. a defendant has a due process right to be fully informed and warned about what could lead to his being found in contempt of court or to have violated a court order. so if it gets to that point, which judge chutkan will do, she will warn him. she will make clear that he understands the conditions of any order she states, there are other possibilities. she, for example, might say well, before you post anything on social media, you have to run it by your lawyers. now that's a little bit

untested. it happened to elon musk in a civil case, and it wasn't really contested because he agreed to it in a civil settlement. but there might with other ways where she can try to have a little bit more control over things that are said by donald trump before they're said. if she involves his lawyers, that puts them a bit in the hot seat. they have ethical obligations as lawyers to comply with court orders as well. so it will be in a dually -- it will be done in a very deliberate manner by judge chat can. >> david, i want to ask you both about the same question but from your different vantage points as an attorney and a political analyst. when scheduling the hearing for the protective order, one of trump's attorney says he couldn't do it on thursday because he would be in florida in the other smith case. just legally speaking, how logistically complicated is it that there are now cases being

tried in multiple jurisdictions? >> it's tough, but you don't do yourself any favors when you go on all the sunday morning talk shows. well, you have time to prepare and do that, but not enough time to prepare future a hearing? and that's one reason why judge chutkan said we're going to do this friday, and you're going to be there. and you know what? they're going to be there. >> yes. we know why they did the full ginsburg. in as much there is a case they are going to bring to court, there is a case they are bringing to the american people, which seems to be at this moment what they are actually focused on. >> that's why that email i mentioned earlier that really becomes important. trump would say look at all these things that are happening to me around the country. look at all these people coming after me. this can't be a good thing for democracy. look at what the democrats are doing. but i am curious to see how and hear now how the democrats message this on their end. because it goes to what i always say. this isn't the big lie. this is the big conspiracy. too many people, too many resources, too many folks on the

same page on so many of these issues. and i say it to say the democrats are going to have be good about making sure the american people know that yeah, all of this is happening at the same time. he's got to juggle this. but it should tell you how corrupt he was, how corrupt his administration was. and that's where that report, look at what the january 6th committee did as a party throughout a campaign cycle, i think the same kind of process and narrative is going to be have to be written. >> you are democrats, right. you know that the biden scampaign, they are focused on their core messaging. they're focused on talking about more rights, not fewer. they are focused on this freedom frame. they don't want to be the ones prosecuting in the case against donald trump. so i think the question then -- >> who would do that. >> who does it leave? and how, to your point, do you make it as simple as possible? do you tie to it extremism? >> i think you do. i think it all has to go under the same umbrella. part of the question about this

protective order is are you putting potential jurors' lives at stake? you putting witnesses' lives at stake? you had the story earlier about somebody threatening joe biden. those are real issues and real problems that need to be addressed as part of the larger conversation about our democracy. i think you tuck all of that under the same umbrella. it doesn't have to be joe biden. probably shouldn't be. but there are a number of other democrats and a party itself should be doing that. because down ballot, those candidates, our candidates really need those talking points. that is the biggest umbrella i have ever seen trying to fit all in. >> it's a big party. >> indeed. it's striking today you had the last nine of the 16 fake electors who were charged with felony. they pleaded not guilty. the significance of that both specifically there and in the broader context of what we are talking about vis-a-vis extremism. >> this is important because it is part of the fraud. they were trying to create these

fake electors to force mike pence to send the stuff back to the states. now the state of michigan has a good case here because in that state, the electors said they were the real electors. in fact, we met on so and so date in the capitol. no you didn't that was a lie. >> and a fake seal. >> they conspired to have a sleep overat the capitol. >> which is not illegal in itself. but when you say you're the real deal. in other states they had similar language. we're alternate electors in case the real electors are thrown out. in those two states, that's not a crime. i think you're going to see the defendants who think trump won the election and did the right thing. they're going down with the ship. whereas the others are going to say they were tricked in it. they'll get a plea deal or maybe have their charges dropped. >> there also seems to be a powerful argument to make around these fake electors which i understand if you're not paying such close attention, it can seem a little wonky.

the idea that you voted in any of these seven states, you were very clear about who you wanted voted for. and then there are people who got together and said no, no, no, not those votes, these fake votes. your potato vote was specifically disenfranchised. again, you have to distill that into an argument about disenfranchisement. when you get closer to clench day, and it is no longer about persuasion. it is just about getting your folks out to the polls or having them cast their absentee ballot, that does add a sense of fire, a sense of urgency, a sense that there is something that democratic voters need to counteract. >> absolutely. and i answer this. i make the biggest point as a former elector. i was an elector in the 2016 elections. >> live and in the flesh, a real elector.

>> and as disappointed as i am in the outcome, i still have the tear stained jacket that night, as disappointed i was in that outcome, i would never imagine that anyone associated with the party or hillary clinton would ever say we got to find a way the take this back. not one of my cleeks would ever have suggested that. any state let alone new york state. and so when i listen to stories, i hear this story, it just galls me because i can't imagine that someone or some group of people would actually conspire to do this. and so one of the biggest tasks that i think as a party we've had at the state level is trying to convince people that your vote does count, and that when you go to the poll site, you can believe in the integrity of the process of the people that are processing your vote. that is one of the hardest things that we will continue to have to do. because of the conspiracy theories that in truth and in fact are not just confined to the light.

they are present on the left as well. but, you know, that's something that we still have to deal with. and it's going to cost money. it's going to cost time. thankfully, i think the democrats are sort of unified on this broad message about democracy. and i think it's hitting home. >> an important to establishing that faith. carol, given the fact that we've seen jack smith move quickly with the trump charges in the election subversion case, i wonder what will happen with the co-conspirators mentioned in the indictment. will there be more charges? and will they be announced soon? >> well, that's the big question, isn't it? there has been surprising silence about the status of those co-defendants. i think that there are some suggestions that one or more of them may be considering cooperating with the government with respect to testifying at the trial. but that's a long road for people who were so deeply involved in conspiring here and have not really said anything in the interim to suggest that they have changed their views on

things. i think that jack smith's primary goal here was, again, to keep a relatively simple trial. i think that he will -- if there is no movement towards cooperation by any of these defendants, i think there will likely be an indictment coming down. there is still time on the clock with respect to the statute of limitations. but first and foremost, he needed to get this trial done. >> and we will be watching. carol lam, david aronberg in for florida, thank you so much for being here. basel is sticking with me. when we return, how clarence thomas reaped the benefits of a network of deep-pocketed patrons. it goes far beyond what we already knew. the reporter behind that investigation joins us at the table in just a minute. plus, new polling reveals how unpopular tommy tuberville's block on military promotions really is in his ruby red home state of alabama, even among republicans. and chris christie calling donald trump's bluff as trump

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today, a quantum surge in new genuinely shocking reporting into the secret life of clarence thomas. for the past few months, the american people have learned much about the lavish gifts from wealthy friends, but never quite like this. propublica using an array of previously unavailable information, including flight data, emails, security records, tax filings, and interviews with more than 100 eyewitnesses, published what they call the

fullest accounting to date on the generosity that has regularly afforded thomas a lifestyle far beyond what his income provides. gifts include at least 38 destination vacation, including a previously unreported voyage on a yacht around the bahamas, 26 private jet flights plus an additional 8 by helicopter. passes to college and professional sporting events, two stays at luxury resorts in florida and jamaica, and one standing invitation to an uber exclusive golf club overlooking the atlantic coast. we should be clear propublica hasn't identified any legal cases that thompson's ben factors had before the supreme court in the course of their relationship. although they all work in industries significantly impacted by the court's decision. and while some of the hospitality may not have required disclosure, thomas does appear to have violated the law by failing to disclose flights, yacht cruises and sports

tickets. so far we have received no comment. in the past, thomas has contended he always sought to comply with disclosure guidelines. joining us now, justin elliott, whose colleagues are bylined on that reporting. basel is back with us. justin, before we get into it, i want you to talk me through the how. how did this reporting come together? >> yeah, well, we started reporting about justice thomas' relationship with a single billionaire, dallas real estate billionaire harlan crow, and we published some earlier stories about crow taking thomas on vacations around the world, paying tuition for one of his relatives who thomas had taken in. and then we started to hear that crow wasn't alone, and that actually there was a whole set of wealthy businessmen who for reasons they're not -- still are not entirely clear have taken it upon themselves to essentially subsidize the private life, the leisure time of this sitting

supreme court justice. and i think the really striking thing to us was just the regularity of this. frequently over 20, 30 years, when justice thomas has leisure time, we find him on a private jet going to the bahamas, for a cruise with one of these businessmen, or to jackson hole, around the world, indonesia, all patiently for free, which is extremely unusual, if note unprecedented for a public official. >> and more than 100 eyewitnesses, how do you find these people? what is the conversation you're having with them? >> yeah, i think one of the insights that we had early in this morning is if you are living the lifestyle of a billionaire, and justice thomas is not a billionaire. he makes $300,000 a year. but living the lifestyle of a billionaire you, have to be surrounded by service worker, people that work on private jets, fishing guys, yacht workers. and because justice thomas hasn't been disclosing the trips as he is supposed to be doing, we've had to do the hard work by piecing it together by talking

to a lot of people. >> and gwynn that you deep, deep many this reporting, but this is the most comprehensive reporting to date, what stood out to you most? >> i think it really was the regularity of it. >> no single one thing so much as the pattern? >> i mean, the type of travel that would be out of reach for any ordinary person. one of the trips we report on, one of these wealthy businessmen flew justice thomas out to nebraska, had him in a skybox for some college sports games there, then flew him, all by private jet to a multimillion-dollar ranch in jackson hole, wyoming. so the type of vacation that no ordinary person could take, or even somebody that makes a good salary at $300,000 a year. >> some of the stuff truly extraordinary. here is just one portion of the propublica report, having to do with harlan crow. quote, in february 2016, thomas flew on crow's private jet from washington to new haven, connecticut. before heading back on the jet just three hours later.

propublica previously reported the flight. but newly obtained u.s. marshall records reveal its purpose. thomas met with several yale law school deans for a tour of the room where where they plan to portray a portrait of the justice. and earmarked for the justice thomas portrait fund. in terms of disclosing gift, talk to me about the line between unethical and illegal. >> justice thomas is definitely skirting that line. when you have gifts that are given to you as a supreme court justice that are valued more than about $400, you are required to report it on your annual financial disclosure report. and something like a portrait, that's a little tough because it's not justice thomas receiving the portrait, it's the yale law school. that being said, a private plane flight does not count as personal hospitality, right? there is a personal hospitality

exemption in the federal reporting law that says you don't have to report meals, lodging, and entertainment. but a private plane is none of those things. so his flight to yale, his flight to new haven there and back to be in a day needed to be reported on the 2016 disclosure, and it was not. and that is a violation of law. he can amend the disclosure. but i think the smarter tactic would be to continue to press this with a committee on financial disclosures, the judiciary, who then can press the justice department to do a more full-throated investigation into what other laws justice thomas might have broken here. >> and we'll come back to the judiciary committee in just a second. i want to set some of the mistakes here. you have what was once a revered institution in this country now faith in the supreme court at an all-time low among american people. i know this is the work you do. are we at a point of no return? how is it that you reestablish the faith that has been lost?

>> i think it's twofold. one is it's congress doing its job, and the other is the supreme court doing its job. congress has every work to work with the supreme court, to help the supreme court establish certain rules of the road, certain guidelines. even establishing or requiring the justices to file the same financial disclosure outside income, and travel report that they themselves, members of congress themselves have to report. i think it's also the supreme court stepping up and saying look, we understand there is a glaring omission here. there is no code of conduct to be had at the supreme court. there is no supreme court code of conduct. there is no enforcement mechanism or complain mechanism if you see a supreme court justice doing something unethical other than potentially working through judiciary committee like there is to the lower courts. this court needs to step up and say we're going create a code and make it enforceable so that when word of unthoybl behavior arises, there is a way for members of the public, there will be an inbox, where

reporters or watchdogs to say we really think that you supreme court rises to maybe the justice department level, you need to look into this to nip it in the bud. so we trust that you're acting as ethically has you could be. >> i want to read you something dick durbin said today. these are not merely ethical lapses. this is a shameless lifestyle underwritten for years by a gaggle of fawning billionaires. are we any closer to a codified system of checks and balances? is there the political appetite for that? >> i think we're closer because of reporting. now we're aware of all of this. as far as political appetite, thing is among the voters, among the legislators, i'm not sure if there is enough of an appetite to take this on at this moment. but the reality, i think this could be a great campaign issue for democrats. you've got young justices that donald trump appointed.

if clarence thomas is allowed to get away with this, there is no accountability. all of these justices that are voting in ways that democrats don't like are going to be living a very similar lifestyle, as you said, having their personal lives supplemented and subsidized. we're going to be dealing with young justices who have changed for a generation, who are clearly potentially influenced by some of the major financial interests in this country. why isn't that a campaign issue today? it absolutely should be. and i'll just make this very quick point. for so many voters that feel that because of the lifetime appointment of these justice, of a decision that has just been made, if there are those who feel that they don't have agency in future decisions in expecting outcome, this is one way to do it. it's to push your legislators to say it's at this moment that we need to start codifying some of these reforms to make sure that

this isn't just like me getting a beer from my friend. these are people who control major resources in our country influencing judicial outcomes, eventually. >> and that theme we come back to again and again, accountability, isn't not just retroactive, to make sure it doesn't happen again. thank you so much for spending some time with us. when we return, our political panel joins us. a new polling shows just how unpopular tommy tuberville's blockade on military promotions really is. back with those story, after this. e story, after this diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex.

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senator tommy tuberville's hold on military promotions over his dislike of the military's position on abortion is nearing six months and the senator is still pledging to continue. there may be cracks emerging. new polling shows tuberville's constituents are getting tired of him threatening national security in order to score political points. a new poll commissioned think 58% of alabama think he should allow promotions to move forward. mad dowd and democratic strategist and pollster cornell belcher. basel is back with me. all right, cornell, you're the pollster. i'm going to begin with you. what do those numbers say to you? >> those numbers say to me that the majority of voters in that

state are coming to their senses. although i will tell you this. politically what will be the ramification for it. that becomes the question. because i still bet you that a majority of republicans in that state who vote in primaries are perfectly fine with it. and if he gets outed or gets a real challenge. unfortunately, in alabama it seems to be the largest challenge that he'll get is probably in a primary because it's such a solidly republican state that ultimately, i do question if he will pay a broader political price for it. >> right. so the question becomes not what happens to tuberville himself, but all of these republicans in dribs who are out there talking about how they're part of the party of national security. we're going to have opponents who are able to point at tommy tuberville and say really, you're the party of national security? you've got two agencies that don't have heads right now because of tommy tuberville.

>> well, i mean, in the end, this isn't about the fact that, you know, a football coach got elevated to the united states senate and doesn't belong there. and regardless of what he does, this could be over and done with, regardless of what tommy tuberville does if the republican caucus and mitch mcconnell just went to him and say done, or if the democrats who hold the senate change the rule that allows this. this to me is what's fundamentally wrong where we still have rules and procedure s that the mart geoff of the country. and it looks like the majority of people in alabama don't like what the u.s. senator is doing. they tend to do in ohio, establishing a new bar at 60%. these are another one of the processes that doesn't allow the majority will of the people of alabama and of the people of the country to get what they want done. and my guess is this former football coach wouldn't be showing up at a football game that he was coaching without any assistant coaches. and that's what he expects of the military at this point.

>> that's about as much sport knowledge as i can handle. i want to get your take on some other numbers. you recently tweeted about, quote, in latest polling, biden's favorable rating among deems is at 87% to 11%. he is far more popular among democrats today than obama was in 2011 and most of 2012. many in news media don't seem to get this. the magic of numbers, matt dowd. >> well, yeah, this is something -- cornell and i have had this conversation numerous time in 2022 about reading the polls, and there seems to be a lack of understanding of what they're telling us when we're say willing is no red wave. this soothe example. there is this whole narrative that is spun out that biden isn't popular among democrats and he needs to be replaced and what's going on and robert f. kennedy jr. is rung. in fact, biden is more popular among his base not only more

than obama was in 2011 and 2012, he is more popular among his base than donald trump is among his base. when we constantly seem to talk donald trump can't do no wrong with his base in the course of this. we get to a question, should we have another nominee because of biden's age? and you see the answers to those questions which a majority of people say yes. the problem with that is that's the same thing they said in 1983 about ronald reagan. almost to the number, almost to the number, what it is for biden. and what happened with ronald reagan? he won in landslide a year and a half later in the course of this. so biden is safe and sound. he is going to win his primaries and caucuses in a far more overwhelming fashion than donald trump is going to win his. we just have to get past this. and know joe biden is going about the nominee, unless joe biden decides he is not going to be the nominee. >> it speaks also to the contrast between the republican party where no one in the republican party seems to be thinking about the general

election, whether or not the positions they have taken in the primary are going to make them unelectable going into a general. democrats actually have the luxury of looking forward to the general. >> that's absolutely right. the short answer to all this is where else are we going to go? biden is our guy. when he came into office, there were questions about what progressives were going to do and pulling him in different directions in the house. there were questions about his relationship with manchin and sinema. it surgeons out he has been successful legislatively. he has been very successful in terms of policy. he has been very successful at finding ways to talk to the country about inflation and reducing unemployment. he has been a successful president. he brought us back to normalcy and good policy making. and by the way, the house is showing some consensus here. that's what you want a president to do. so, yeah, all of the talk about well, we could use somebody else, what about -- he's got us this far. there is no reason to jump ship. keep going. where else are we going to go?

you get behind the guy that has taken you this far. >> it's as though a lifetime of professional legislating makes you good at legislating. who can imagine? all right. no one is going anywhere. we're going to return to republicans after a quick break and chris christie blasting away at the twice indicted, twice impeached ex-president. stay with us. detect this: living with hiv, i learned i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines

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and he thinks these numbers actually mean they approve of what he did. when in essence, it's just he is the best known person in the race. >> former new jersey governor and current presidential candidate chris christie on the possibility that the disgraced ex-president may skip the first republican primary presidential debate. last night in an interview, trump saying he would not sign the pledge required for all candidates to participate in the debate, but they will support the eventual nominee, saying there were candidates he would not support. nbc news reporting that, quote, trump declined to name the candidates he wouldn't support, but criticized both christie and asa hutchinson, both of who he said would ask me nasty questions. we're back with matt, cornell and basel. i wonder, cornell, what you make of the analysis from chris christie there, that this is about name rec and not about one person's unique hold on the republican party. >> yeah, you know, i get that governor christie is trying to

donald trump into it. but i got to tell you, i'm on a panel here this afternoon with two other guys who are pretty darn good at politics, but i would not have my candidate up on that stage either if i were the trump campaign. there is no way on earth i'd put my candidate on the stage with a bunch of people who are running 30 points behind me, because it's an opportunity for them. it's a great opportunity for me than it for my candidate. to the upside is so much better for chris christie than it is for donald trump. so from a strategic standpoint, from just a straight strategic standpoint, there is no way on earth i get on that stage and allow those candidates who are trying to overtake me a free shot at trying to overtake me. i do not voluntarily give them that opportunity because he has more to lose than i think to gain. >> i want to get your take on some additional comments by chris christie at a town hall in

new hampshire last night. this is specifically on the importance of calling out trump. >> we tried that with him in 2016. all of us ignored his insults. we're not going to respond that. we're going to go high and talk about other things and just let him do what he is going to do, because no one will believe him. no one is going the believe he'll actually build a wall and mexico is going the pay for it. guess what? lots of people did. you have to fight him on the truth. when he lies, we need to fight him because to ignore him is to ascent to his lies. and i'm not doing that. i'm not going to do it anymore. >> matt dowd? >> well, i hope he think she's pointing the finger at himself, because he ran in 2016 and where was this chris christie in 2016 when he's now saying it all

after voting forums supporting and endorsing him in two successive presidential elections. i'm glad chris christie has taken the bark off donald trump. somebody in the republican party needs to. i think he probably understands, and i've known chris for mother than 20 years back when he was a u.s. than 20 years, back when he was a u.s. attorney in new jersey i knew him. i've known him a while. this is who chris christie is, at his basest. he should have took than tact when he took the bark off margolis in margolis's campaign in new hampshire. he should have taken that tact on donald trump. i agree with cornell. chris christie has everything to gain doing this. i think he could easily finish second in new hampshire because of the dynamics of independence voting in the republican primary in new hampshire. and i think the latest polls show him tied with ron desantis in new hampshire. so i think he has that. but his ability to climb -- i think he has a 50% negative rating among republicans.

there's no receptivity in the majority of republicans for taking the bark off donald trump, but i think the country benefits from hearing the truth from a republican. >> interesting thing, basil, that he said, which is they don't approve of the things he wants to do. i'm not certain that is true. >> correct. i feel the same way. as chris christie was talking, did i hear him utter a little bit of "if we go high, they go low"? >> 100%, there was straight michelle obama coming. >> remember, he's the same guy that embraced barack obama when then president obama came to new jersey to support that state after superstorm sandy, i believe. and after that, as much as christie was supported in a sense for seemingly working across the aisle, he quickly turned away from that saying, i don't know that guy. right? so as matt said, where was that guy in 2016?

yes, take the bark off now, but i remember donald trump -- yeah, good luck. he's not going to come to the debate. he shouldn't debate based on where he is right now, and unless somebody wins iowa and takes some of the spotlight away from iowa and new hampshire, see where this is going. >> also fascinating psychological study -- who would want to be his vice president after we saw how he treated his last one? matt dowd, cornell, basil. quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

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overdose. the judges will hear the case in december. and we'll be right back. cember and we'll be right back. fundamental freedoms are under attack in our country today and there is a national agenda at play by these extremist so-called leaders. it will be a national ban on abortion. it is the tradition of our country to fight for freedom, to fight for rights... to fight for the ability of all people to be who they are and make decisions about their own lives and their bodies. and we will fight for the ideals of our country.

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thank you for spending this thursday with us. we are so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hey, ari. >> hi, alicia. thank you so much. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. we are tracking news on the prosecution of donald trump with the development that doj seeking a january trial date for the coup case. proposing to start the year with the trial. just weeks out from the gop primary, the first one, a plan that may concern trump and the republican party. now, a judge will make that final call, but this is the frame work for our special report, which begins right now. the trumpp