spend the resources and the focus that we need to do the better off we all will be. this is a worldwide position. >> senator mazie herman of hawaii. again everybody is sending the best thoughts to a truly special place in this world in this country. thank you very much. that is all in on this thursday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening. alex starts good evening chris. you know i think for everyone in america hawaii exists is a magical place whether you've been there or not. as i read more about what is going on with these fires, of course is a climate change story, but it's also a story of colonialism, and what happens when you change a place and make it non native as it were, in terms of agriculture, grasses, lifestyle, industry. i mean, it is a whole sort of sweep of things that came to intersect to create a situation that we have there now.

>> the history of lahaina which i honestly didn't know until reading about it in the wake of his destruction is fascinating and it's lost just absolutely devastating. >> yes it will have more on that later tonight. thank you as always for the coverage. thanks to you at home for joining us tonight. we have new developments in the multiple criminal trials in the former president donald trump. today's coconspirators in the mar-a-lago case, of the walt nauta and all of carlos tlr, they appeared in a florida courtroom to brought and to the new charges brought about them by jack smith. trump's lawyer was also there representing his interest in this case. the nude event fan in here, a property manager carlos de oliveira did not enter a plea, he needs to still lock in some legal representation, with both trump and his valid walt nauta pleaded not guilty to their scheme to delete security

footage that of mar-a-lago. a wall that classified documents case continues to move forward, so too does jack smith other case, the one in washington d.c.. today's special counsel prosecutors revealed went and exactly they hope the court will schedule that court. jack smith's team told the court they want to begin the 2020 election case against trump on january 2nd. prosecutors argued in the filing that starting the trial on a second day of the new year before any the nominating contests would vindicate the public's strong interest in a speedy trial. now we do not know whether the court will agree to that date and trump's legal team will almost certainly pushback, but if the government heeds accords governments wishes here than while, donald trump is a very busy dance card in the month of january. take a look at this. potential criminal trial ungenerous ekin and then 40s

later, the fourth anniversary of the capital insurrection. january 6th. nine days after that is the iowa caucuses which is the first contest of the 2024 presidential primary, and then sometime around that likely the very next day, trump's legal team is scheduled to be in court for his second defamation case against journalist e. jean carroll. and the less than two weeks later trump's legal team is due in court again for a class action lawsuit brought over his role in a legit grift involving video phones in the early 2000s. just so we're clear here. in the same four-week period, donald trump could be facing legal jeopardy for alleged attempts to overthrow democracy and conning people and buying crappy video phones that really looked a lot like portable dvd players. he is truly one in 1 million america. and, whatever the judge decides, the special counsel's team is

wasting no time and preparing for an early trial just minutes after requesting that early january trial date, prosecutors issued a separate filing saying that the 2020 election case may include a small amount of classified information. they asked the judge or tanya chutkan to discuss this matter at a hearing at the end of this month which is interesting information. i keep in mind that all of this is happening the day before a very important hearing in a case against donald trump. tomorrow judge chutkan is gonna hear arguments from both a defense and the prosecution about whether to grant a protective order here. and that order would protect habit trump from sharing evidence in this case with the public. now, so far there is very good reason to believe that trump would want to do just that. donald trump spent the last week's very publicly attacking the prosecutors in this case

and other cases. his comments have not been subtle. terry was last night in an interview with newsmax. >> fani willis the prosecutor in georgia. what are your thoughts of this? woman >> she is not a capable woman. jack smith, he's like a deranged individual, is like a deranged human being. he's a sick puppy. >> those kinds of comments, those kinds of comments are a real challenge for trump. he cannot seem to stop seeing them and his legal team is also a challenge for them, because they cannot seem to convince him to stop saying them if he wanted to. but those comments are also a challenge for the judge overseeing this case. a judge who has to balance trump's legitimate first amendment rights as a presidential candidate with the reality that trump is already very much targeting the judge and the prosecutors advance of a criminal trial. and he appears to have a

predetermined strategy here, which is about to talk as loudly and as much as possible to shore up his defense. joining me now is chuck rosenberg, former prosecutor and senior fbi official, also glenn thrush correspondent for the new york times who covers the justice department. thank you so much for being with us with the with tonight. you are an important acid here in msnbc in terms of understanding the nuance of the law. my question is, how difficult a position is judge chutkan in right now, and balancing what seems to be flagrant abuses of the position of a defendant in a criminal case and trump's legitimate right to talk about what may be a very put political up and going into presidential contest? >> i think you framed it absolutely right alex. we've never had as a criminal defendant somebody who was also likely to be a major party

nominee for president. so judge chutkan has to balance those first amendment rights. his interest in campaigning, is right to speak about the campaign and the promise for office with the needs of criminal trial which include a lot of restrictions on a lot of defendants in a lot of ordinary cases around the country. as you know, there are restrictive rules in this particular federal court that limit what a defendant can say, limit what lawyers can say and give adjudged the right to oppose strict conditions on them. a whole separate question of course is whether mr. trump will abide by any of those restrictions. he's not very good at that as we know. >> glenn, i don't think i am getting ahead of myself. i don't think trump has any inclination stop himself as evidenced by his own lawyers. john laurel, one of his attorneys in this case was a doing the sunday shows doing

the things you're not supposed to do, so if your lawyer is doing that, you can imagine you're not getting legal advice to the contrary. up to this point, trump's general position has been to flip authority and i have a hard time imagining it's gonna be any different in this scenario? >> this is a morass. there are two reasons why the judge wishes to protect order. to keep the jury pool from being tainted so the defendant can't be there talking about information it makes it very hard to joyous a jury pool, and the matter of seeking to intimidate witnesses through his clear public statements, which is also something we've seen in the mar-a-lago case. the one thing we know is that jack smith the special counsel doesn't want to get caught into this trap into the trap of being a revisiting of these very lenient bond terms. trump was virtually no conditions were imposed on his

bond, because smith understands the potential problems with this. i think the judge is also in that case. so the question is, is it okay for him outside the courtroom to beat the hell out of the judge, to demean a prosecutor without necessarily violating the protective order? it might very well turnout that as long as he stays within the confines of not discussing the substance of the case or witness intimidation, that saying these seemingly outrageous things about the arbiter in the case and his main opponent legally might be within the lines. the trump's disruptive the entire january 6th incident and the indictment that was filed against him. his one litany of progressive disruption and to expect it to and at the courthouse door is just not realistic. >> i completely agree and then the question is what sort of punishment awaits him on the

other side? chuck, short of throwing him in jail which seems and a possibility while he awaits trial, as it finds? is that the recourse that is on the table here? >> there are different ways to think about it. i agree with glenn, i don't his bond would be revoked, or think the practical difficulties of putting any former president with secret service protection is enormous. but there are remedies. you touched on one alex. a judge can hold anybody who doesn't will obey a lawful court order in civil or criminal contempt. but there's something else unethically auto mention it. look at what happened in the federal case in the southern district of florida. the government superseded with additional counts including additional counts of obstruction of justice. so if mr. trump crosses that line, i think the government is just gonna have to just accept the fact that they're gonna be criticized and denigrated. but mr. trump crosses the line and starts going after

witnesses, intimidating, threatening or harassing witnesses, that's a separate federal crime. and the government has the authority to go to a grand jury and ask it to indict mr. trump for those additional crimes. look, and may be the case that nothing stops him. and maybe the case that nothing slows him down, but there are remedies for the government and for the judge. >> yeah, adding more charges to what he already has mounting. that could be an incentive. we may see, we may not see. clint i have to ask you about i will call it in easter egg, i don't if you think about it the same way. this notion to maybe some classified document involved in the discovery. do you have any sense of where we may be going on? that >> not, that was pretty interesting i must say. i don't know quite with that would pertain to. we have enough mystery with the unindicted coconspirator number

six, for all puzzling trying to think through that could be. this was actually quite a surprise, the fact that during the smaller of classified documents indicates that it's not a big issue. the one area i would say i standing it through the indictment to look for potential areas where that might be the case, there was some discussion about meetings in the white house involving national security, meeting with milley in one of the infamous oval office can counters with various officials. so there was this bleed over between those meetings and some of the doj meetings. the other issue is, in the indictment smith also refers to the director of national security and other folks involved in the intelligence community, giving trump council that all these various schemes were illegal.

so there is some brushing of shoulders with areas that could be potentially classified but your guess is as good as mine. >> it would be ironic there was mark milley who was the subject of administer document waving around that is not worked its way into the mar-a-lago case. chuck, to the entrance of classified material in this case potentially slow things down given the fact that trump's defense team is looking for any reason to delay these trials and will presumably make an argument to delay the classified certification, to cease a process, could that slow us down in an unfortunate way here? >> theoretically, but really alex it shouldn't. the classification procedures act, the act to use when you have classified documents that the government wants to use at trial can be a little bit cumbersome, but if you're talking about a small number of classified documents, it really shouldn't act as a break in these proceedings. by the way, i think glenn is

right. my sense is that when senior national intelligence officials come to the white house to brief the president, they often bring with them, and those are power points, sometimes charts or maps or diagrams. those are often locked as highly classified, in part because they go before the president, and if those senior officials who were briefing mr. trump and who were telling him that he had lost the election, there was no interference from venezuela, with the voting machines, if they are giving him classified information, some of it may be in writing, and subject to the classification procedures act. >> fascinating that may all go back to fraudulent claims about international interference in the 2020 election. chuck rosenberg, and glenn trust, thank you for much your time tonight. we have much more still to come this evening. brand new propublica reporting

a little luxury items lavished on justice clarence thomas. you're not gonna believe the news. plus republicans plow full steam ahead on the biden crime family boondoggle. there is a why in here somewhere and we are going to get to it with claire mccaskill. that's coming up. that's coming up

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to them as crime family and this is organized crime. so make it easy for us, what was the crime? >> well the crime is the trading policy for money. >> which policy? >> what we are going to get

into the. >> for months, months house oversight chair james comer and his republican allies have been suggesting they will finally be able to get into the evidence about the bidens crime family. the biden crime family. and now, the house oversight committee has released a memo showing more than $20 million in payments from entities in russia and ukraine in kazakhstan to the biden family and their business associates. but there are no direct payments to joe biden. whom there's no evidence that joe biden was even involved in any of this. in other words, they still haven't gotten into that. this is now the third memo the fails to show evidence linking president biden to his son's private business dealings. but the oversight committee says it doesn't have to show payments linked to biden to prove he is corrupt. joining me now is claire mccaskill former democratic senator from missouri.

clare, thank you for being here. i'm trying to make sense of my position here. because they haven't actually got into the substance of this very incendiary claims that they are making about the biden family and then another part of me thinks, at your own peril ignore them off carnations of the right-wing. where do you stand in? this >> first of all, what hunter biden did was dumb and had the great appearance of in propriety may not have been illegal, but joe biden didn't do it. and by the way, we have a long history of family members playing of presidents to try to make money. going all the way back to fdr, we had richard nixon's brother. we frankly had billy carter who was taking money from libya. so what drives me crazy about this is the blinking red light around jared kushner. why does the senate not start

hearing? let's just briefly walk through with jared kushner did. he was put in to run a hodge par folio in a government where he had no experience. running foreign policy in the middle east proper peace process. he has no experience. what does he do? first he becomes best buddies with the crown prince of saudi arabia. he gets trump to go to saudi arabia for his first trip. is the crown prince in the white house dining room. he does all that and what happens the minute trump leaves office? he starts for the first time a private equity fund. he goes over and asks the crown prince for two billion dollars. and you know what the committee said that runs the sovereign wealth fund for saudi arabia? alex they said, this is a really bad idea. they did their due diligence and failed miserably in every test of due diligence. and management fees were excessive. they recommended against making a two billion dollar

investment. of course, the crown prince came along and overruled him, and gave jared kushner two billion dollars. now compare that with mnuchin whose treasury secretary, he was the crown prince to try to trade-off his trump connections, and instead even though he had run an investment company, he only gave him one billion and paid him less in management fees. this is a huge scandal. i do not understand why the senate is not doing a hearing on all of the trump grift. and i'm not even talking about the money they met off foreign governments while they were in office. >> when i absolutely. harriet >> i'm sorry, i'm fired up on this i feel we have to talk about. >> i think you wonder if the answer to that question is if you are looking at hunter biden, why not look at jared kushner is the reason democrats for example not leading the charge in that is because there is a

tacit acknowledgment in that what hunter biden was doing was sleazy if not illegal? and that democrats may be in large part indifference to the white house or love to do that. do you think that's factoring in here in the strategy not touching jared kushner? >> i don't understand that strategy. that's a good way to make every headline about hunter biden and make everyone forget about what the trump family did. massive grift while they were in office and even bigger grift trading off the influence of the name trump after they got out of office. i really think that what hunter biden did. i disagree what he did, i don't know if his father disagreed what he did. i know that he was tormented by the death of his other son and the addiction of hunter, but i do know this. i know that the more we give them an open playing field to try to pretend like joe biden did something wrong, because of 100, the bigger mistake we

make. we need to explain to the american people first to joe biden did nothing wrong. we have no evidence he did anything wrong and secondly, don't look over here, look at the real sleaziness that occupy the white house the last time republicans were in charge. >> and claire i absolutely hear the urgency nor voicing the need to explain, because i think many people like democrats and swift vote veterans, or donald trump trotting uphill climb to enten 's model infidelities, literally the women who were involved in all of that and debates to scare hillary clinton. those tactics seem absurd. they were patently false in some respects, and yet they were resident. and yet i kind of wonder if the hunter biden as pamela ridiculous that it is trying to tie to joe biden, republican voters seem convinced about it. they're using it to defend the actions of trump vis-à-vis his criminal indictments, and i think if you wonder for might

be some problem with independents? >> i worry about. i think all those other times it relatives tried to make money of the presidency, it didn't really hurt the presidents. bill clinton had a problem with hillary's brothers. billy carter was a problem. richard nixon, he had a different problem, here the same kind of problem that trump did. he did illegal stuff. i don't think it's really going to hurt joe biden but i don't think we should allow them to get away with this. i just don't think we should allow them to get away with it. it is wrong what the questioners did, what ivanka and jared did, is wrong with all of them did, and we need to talk about it more. >> claire mccaskill, i am glad we had this conversation. to get your perspective here. thank you as always for your time this evening. >> my pleasure. >> still more to come tonight. the drip, drip, drip of real of a shuns about luxury gifts that justice clarence thomas's receivers billionaire friends. that drip, drip, drip is

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university of nebraska is so popular that it has sold out every seat and is more than 85,000 seat stadium at every home game since 1962.

and that is what makes this so significant. this is a photo of supreme court justice clarence thomas and his wife ginni in the end zone had a game in 2019. at that game the thomas's got to meet the team and they got to walk out of the players tunnel before kickoff which is pretty awesome. then watched the game from a luxury sky box access to which normally cost $40,000 a year. the thomason's had all access passes but they did not have to pay a thing for them. everything was paid for by businessman david sopel. and so people didn't just get the thomas is in the game in the players tunnel in the sky boxed, he also flew them there in a private jet, and then after the game he flew them out to his private ranch in wyoming. that's a picture of it for an all expenses fishing trip.

nothing, better all of it must be really nice! but justice thomas disclose none of this. not the private jet or the players tunnel or the swanky ranch. none of it. and it does not end there. propublica has identified at least 38 destination vacations, 26 private jet flights, eight helicopter flights and a dozen vip plazas to sporting events that justice thomas and his wife received from wealthy friends who happened to have similar ideological perspectives as the justices. and this new story is deeply reported. the sourcing includes flight data and tax filings, and interviews with more than 100 eyewitnesses. what is an earth here is a lifestyle that is very hard to fathom especially for a supreme court justice. crew members of this 126 foot luxury yacht told propublica that they recall having justice

thomas on board multiple times in recent years. a chauffeur in the bahamas recall that his company wants picked up justice thomas from a private jet and then drove into the marina where this yacht docks. the in the private jet by the way are both opened by a billionaire oil baron called palm valley. and because mr. navalny sometimes rented this luxury of, we know that the marketplace for a week and this thing is $60,000. justice thomas and his wife also had the honor of flung this custom 7:47 jumbo stat that has been retrofitted with recliner sets in mahogany dining tables and also the miami dolphins logo. got that privilege thanks to their friend wayne huizenga, another billionaire who used to own both the miami dolphins and the florida panthers and apparently is the jet to shuttle the thomas is tuned from gains because it was a really nice guy, especially if you work supreme court justice. but maybe the most exclusive

thing justice thomas appears to have been comped for was a standing invitation to this place. and members only golf club -- it also used to be long to billionaire wayne huizenga and, he didn't charge admission. all of its 200 plus members were just invited by huizenga to eat and play and relax for free. the club has since been sold and now charges $150,000 just as the initiation fee. justice thomas has been spotted there multiple times. now, the supreme court effectively polices itself nondisclosure for stuff like this and propublica's up front that not all of the hospitality they report on here may have required disclosure. all the wealthy benefactors involve say that this hospitality should not be judged so harshly because they are thomas's friends. propublica has not identified any legal cases these wealthy

benefactors had before the court of the time they were winding and dining and flying injustice all over the place. nbc news reached out to justice thomas for comment this morning but we've not yet heard back. in a statement replying to previous reporting, just as thomas said that he had been advised this sort of personal hospitality from close personal friends who did not have business before the court was not reportable. but it should say be said that optics matter here, because the public's faith in the court matters, the belief that the justices sit on that bench are morally upright and are not for example in the pocket of anyone. so regardless of whether all of this had to be disclosed, it is still jaw-dropping that justice thomas had and chose to disclose an out of it. the only reason we know about it is that propublica decided to investigate. one of their senior editors who has overseen all the recent supreme court coverage joins me next. ns m next

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thomas's mother lived in and still lives into this day. then we found out that thomas failed to disclose that mr. crow paid the boarding school tuition costs for justice thomas's grand nephew, running a tablet may have exceeded $150,000. and today we learned of the dozens of destination vacations and private jets and otherwise high rowlatt high roller experiences that clarence thomas has received from other billionaires who have basin glee kept clarence thomas in a state of luxury. we've learned all this thanks to dogwood reporting from propublica-ing. senior editor of propublica who has overseen all the supreme court coverage. congratulations on important boarding the must of been time consuming and difficult. it's invaluable. it is a public service. but secondly, i was struck by the scale of this. as a lay person that has not overseen all this coverage, is

there any parallel in history to a justice taking this much from a group of wealthy individuals? >> yeah, that's a great question, and thanks for having me. it's very flattering. we were flabbergasted by that, as well. where does the guy find the time? 38 vacations in fewer than 30 years, and on the court, that he is, and that is surely an undercount. we have lots of evidence that this is an undercount because we were extremely conservative about the travel, both the destination travel and the flights, 26 private jet flights. what we were struck with after the harlot crow stories were that we got tips that indicated that the scale was much greater, that the circle of benefactors was wider, and that there were so many more gifts and

undisclosed travel, and that is what we have focused on here today, to emphasize that this is a scale that is unprecedented in modern court history, either from any federal judge or certainly from a supreme court justice. there is no precedent for this. >> what is also interesting is you have this evidence sort of christmas cards that ginni thomas sent out featuring some of these lavish trips with their billionaire friends. they weren't hiding this. this was cocktail conversation. this was holiday greeting card material. and yet none of this finds its way onto the financial disclosure forms. is it safe to say that this is evidence of consciousness of guilt, not in the legal sense but perhaps in the moral or ethical sense? >> it is evidence that they were brazen or thought that the most generous interpretation is that they thought they weren't

doing anything wrong or they really didn't care or thought they wouldn't get caught. and it is quite remarkable and part of our massive trove of evidence from ginni thomas's own cards, the pictures saying they were hosted in this multitude of events and there's some delicious details in their, such as, he's got a buddy lawyer who's an attack dog, mark poleta, and pollutant and his wife serenaded the thomas is with their own song at one of these festivities. so there are great details, but you are right, it was in the open, it was a kind of, it was there to be seen and hasn't been for decades. this is a kind of remarkable thing in and of itself and a comment on how we have covered

and perceived the court up until only very recently. >> it's so good that you brought up that mark poleta anecdote, his friends literally serenading them. i have, friends none of them serenade me singing lyrics they have written in advance off of their iphones. that doesn't happen. i think in most circles of friends. >> we all need better friends. >> we'll fly me around on the private jets. but you make the point, and i think it's important here, that these were people that were not friends with him before he was a supreme court justice. this is relevant. the adoration, the fealty, the deference to him, almost as if he is a king in this situation. to me that just strikes me is an unhealthy, a balanced relationship. and or one that, one wonders what clarence thomas is getting out of, it beyond the ego stroking. they don't have business before

the court, but it just seems wildly asymmetrical. did it seem that way to you? >> absolutely. that's an extremely important point that you have just raised. crow, novelly, highs inga, all friends that thomas made after he joined the court, and we have the top ethics official in the obama administration that had served another administrations saying that he actually told people, the wealthy friends that you have, the wealthy friends that you had before you join the government, you are not allowed to make new rich friends. that is something that he actually said to people to emphasize their ethical responsibilities. and here thomas is flouting that it is extraordinarily brazen way. there is a question of why. why are these ultra wealthy conservative donors enveloping thomas in his life of luxury than he couldn't afford on a

public servants salary? and i'm going to leave it to others to speculate, as you said in your introduction, we haven't found cases that these men had before the court directly, but there is a way that thomas has become ensconced in a world, a protective world of adulation, where all of his ideas are echoed back to him. maybe they are given to him or they are discussed in ways that, and we don't have evidence for this, but it certainly is supposition that this is a chamber of, as you say, adulation and ideological closure that protects him from the outside world and envelops him in luxuries at the same time. >> and phillips in a luxury like a thick cashmere blanket, which i think has been in the

offering along the way. jesse eisen are, thank you on behalf of people who carry about the integrity of this court. we appreciate all the reporting. good job. >> thank you so much. >> still ahead this evening, the deadly wildfires in maui right now have been leaving dozens dead and they have been destroying priceless parts of hawaii in history. we are going to talk about what has been lost to those flames. coming up next. coming up next so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there

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a new federal disaster pop ration setting up disaster funding for the fires in hawaii. 53 people have died, leaving one of the deadliest u.s. wildfires in decades. in lahaina, one of the highest parts of maui, historically and culturally significant sites have effectively been reduced to ash and rubble, and then includes the famous 150 year old by union tree that was planted in 1873 to commemorate the first protestant mission to lahaina, 50 years earlier. it is now severely burned, but thankfully it is still standing. the historical baldwin home museum, and 1830s era house once home to a medical missionary who vaccinate to the island against smallpox and is believed to be the oldest home in maui, that has burned down. the walls of why low at church, an 1820s house of worship or

many of the early kings and queens of the kingdom of hawaii are buried, that was engulfed in flames, which you can see in that picture right there. angela hyena heritage museum, which sits in a historic courthouse and houses ancient hawaiian artifacts has been destroyed by the wildfires. joining me now is todd to wieke ten, on professor of ethnic studies at the university of hawaii in manila. i imagine this is a difficult time for hawaiians in america just watching it unfold. our condolences to you and anyone you know on the island. for us on the mainland here, we talk so little and honestly know so little about hawaii's precolonial history. what does it mean to have these artifacts and the structures destroyed by the wildfire? >> thanks, alex, and first i'd like to lift up all of those who have been impacted by the fires in hawaii and maui and we appreciate all the thoughts and

prayers and the goodwill that is going towards the islands. with regards to the past, the pre colonial past of hawaii and the significance of lahaina and those objects tear, its central to understand how important lahaina has been in our history. it is the center of both political and religious power of the maui chiefly lines, pre-times our islands were organized into chief terms. the maui lineage is prominently related to the -- line and king -- unified light the islands and the island of maui. in the 16th century his daughter became a powerful lizard deity called -- who became an important protector of waterways, and her

power is also about -- , the first to unify all of the islands of hawaii. so the place of lahaina the and the power there is really felt across the islands. to lose those representations of those history is really an important moment for all of the people of maui, from hawaii, and the world to think about what it means to carry on history and in what forms. >> yeah. when we talk about how a carrier history forward i think that it's a huge question is what concerns what is actually unfolding in maui today. this is a story, in many ways, about change. climate change. about change in terms of agriculture and agricultural practices. i wonder if you think that there is enough of a conversation about hindu judas communities recover in the

after effects of colonialism, industrial agriculture, and of course how they are poised to weather the effects of climate change. all of those factors seem to have converged here. what is the discussion like on hawaii about how to protect what i think is truly sacred land? >> thanks for that. the conversation among -- , native hawaiians in dialogue with indigenous peoples across the world has always been that of making sure that our knowledge, our practices, our struggles are seen. because struggles for our sovereignty, for continuity of our people on the land, is really about our efforts to maintain, in our language, -- our sponsor billeted to steward the land in the right way, to make share it's there for future generations. this is knowledge that we carry on to make sure from those

times of -- before -- , in china moving forward into the present. as you noted, those centuries of change have led to a kind of, in some ways, loss, in some ways departure from those practices of good stewardship of land, and the knowledge is still there, though, and i think many of the carriers of that, including those in lahaina, who displayed the fact that despite the fact they just lost structures, as you noted, the museum, is an important cultural center, despite the fact they've lost those physical structures and perhaps the objects there, they are nevertheless still committed to making sure that the world knows of the struggle to maintain these histories, the practices, on the land, to restore the land in meaningful ways. fish ponds and the terraces

have been prominent and hawaiian efforts to return as to a way of being improper relationship with the place. >> it is a beautiful way of being. it's truly a magical place. we wish you and all of hawaii a swift recovery with all the knowledge and grounding in history that one can have at this critical juncture. professor, thank you so much for your time. >> thank you. >> that is our show for this evening. now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. as >> i got a personal report from maui today from my nephew, kevin o'donnell junior, who has been fighting the fire out there. >> wow. >> he says they face challenges they never faced before. when the power went out and some of the hydrants lost the electrical powered pumps that would pump from the hydrants. so the hydrants that they would rely on to fight the fire couldn't deliver the water