over too many swing votes next year who are looking at this mess and saying, that's enough. >> i think that's why you're getting that argument it's so unfair. he's trying to win them back over, make them a little tired of it and make them think that he's unfairly targeted rather than indicted for a reason. >> the conversation we'll keep having and appreciate senior nbc news national politics reporter, jonathan allen and thanks for getting up "way too early" with us. "morning joe" starts right now. i do think that the work in my office and other parts of the justice department has changed the definition of the problem of crime in america. >> we'll have to attack it as a business not just as individual crime. >> we followed up with several rico cases. there will be some point which we will destroy the power of the mafia. >> this is a ridiculous application of the racketeering statute. there's probably no one that knows it better than i do, probably know it as well, as the first one to use it, but in major cases like boskie and

milken case, it's not meant for election disputes. this is ridiculous what she's doing. >> he actually -- it's sort of fascinating, the perfect circle, this is, of course, what elton john would sing about in "the lion king." this is the circle of life. >> yes. >> live by the sword, die by the sword, another way to say it because rudy who was once celebrated for his really, really aggressive use of rico laws is now indicted under rico laws. >> yes, he's accused along with donald trump and 17 others of trying to overturn georgia's 2020 election results and that's his reaction. he's kind of excited about it. good morning. and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, august 16th. kind of halfway through the week and what a week it has been. >> i'm so glad you said that

because jonathan lemire wanted to talk about the red sox. >> no. >> what a week it's been. they're going to end up, you know, last place, the yankees, of course, are still going to come back second, going down the homestretch of the derby and winning it in record time, that's what will happen with the yankees but for now, jonathan lemire, six out of eight, five out of seven, three against pensacola catholic high schools, a win is a win. >> red sox doing their best to get our hopes up. this is their m.o. the sox are in town in washington and beat the nats, 5-4 but playing a series of jv squads. the story, as you see it, certainly the yankees' recent struggles but you and i know better, they're playing possum. this is the long con about to turn on the jets and see them at the ticker taper parade down the

canyon of heroes -- >> we certainly will. rip van steinbrenner will wake up from his deep, long slummer, break our hearts yet again. i'm sure they'll have bucky dent leading the parade. we've seen it before. we'll see it again. >> well, what we're about to cover today, we have never seen before since, like, a week or two ago or a month ago or perhaps in the spring with this former president getting indicted, two, three, four times. >> let's talk to jonathan lemire. he, of course, the white house bureau chief and -- >> author of "the big lie." >> he wrote about this. this is like -- >> he's watching what he wrote about play out in real life and former white house director of communications under president obama, jennifer palmieri joins us and peter baker is with us, professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. and former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg is back with us.

we've got a lot of questions for huck this morning. the clock is now ticking. on the ten-day window that former president trump and his 18 co-defendants have to voluntarily turn themselves in. can you imagine this? >> it's really -- peter baker actually wrote a great article talking about how what once was just unthinkable is now becoming, well, tuesday. >> it's actually wednesday this morning. >> peter, i'm old enough. i don't think you are but i'm old enough and several meme on the show are old enough, we remember exactly where we were on august the 9th, 1974. i was driving in my grandmom's dodge dart into i think a strip mall in upstate new york in horse head, new york and it came on the radio talking about richard nixon resigning from the white house, it was massive. i have no doubt that history

will record these four indictments as spectacularly out of the ordinary and perhaps for better or worse to be monumental events in history, especially constitutional history but you're right. we're in the middle of the storm and these shocks just keep coming, but like trump, shocking but not surprising. >> yeah, no, exactly. that's my first memory too. my first political memory my dad holding up the paper and said giant block letters, nixon resigns and talking about what that meant for the country and you're right. we are in a historic moment now. we often don't think about it. when we are living history, we are living history and this has great consequence for the country. we don't know where it's going to go but you're right there is a certain surreal quality to the idea that, yeah, another week, another indictment, here we go again. it's sort of lost some of the

novelty or shock value. we should be shocked. it's shocking to see a president charged with a crime, certainly assuming if you think he's guilty, it's shocking. if you think he's being unfairly charged that's shocking in its own way, here we have 91 felony charges, four different jurisdiction, four different cases and four trials coming up in the next year, let's say, assuming the dates get set, plus, by the way, let's not forget he has a few other civil trials coming up, as well. this will be a professional defendant at a time when he's trying to get back into the white house. there is no road map for this. nothing to compare it to. >> nothing to compare it to and, you know, it's interesting, jonathan lemire, i'm starting to see from people who have steadfastly defend donald trump all along and, of course, have done that if they're not pro-trump they're anti-anti-trump but you're seeing some columnists in "the new york post," saying, come on, they'll go through and attack

prosecutors, but something like dan mclaughlin will say, come on, come on, republican, don't fall for this again. democrats put up like 50 republican candidates last year that denied elections, and republicans that were suckers. they fell for it and every one of them lost in all of the big races. don't do it again and then at the end he concedes like i'm seeing more and more people concede, prosecutors aren't perfect, but trump brought this on himself for the most part. there really does seem to be that reality sinking in even among the most steadfast hardy anti-anti-trumpers. is there that does seem to be breaking through a little bit. there was a moment on fox where neil cavuto asked his pro-trump guest, really, you think all of these are -- all of these cases are biased, all of these cases are politically motivated,

really? all of them. it defies logic. there is so much and donald trump is now staring at a 2024 where he will be hurdling between courtrooms and as much as he whipped up the core base, his base is with him and not going anywhere and believe everything he is saying that other polling suggests, though trump is way ahead of the field but some of that support is a little bit soft and that there's a fear among some republicans that trump, even if they like trump, even if they think he's being railroaded somewhat, they think it's too much. they're fatigued but more than that the baggage will prevent him from winning again and that's what i hear from republicans in washington, privately they're concerned heading for a repeat of 2022 where if he's at the top of the ticket he will bring the rest of the party down and hurt them with swing voters as they try to win back the senate. if they try to hold on to the house particularly in seats that president biden won last time around. that they think this will be another election where trump is

going to be a net negative for the party and as much as it's helping the primaries right now, it is hard to make the case that this is going -- that those voters will break his way next year as the criminal allegations continue to pile up. >> and as the white house tells you and as you've reported, they understand, the white house understands that georgia is a swing state earlier than they ever expected for one reason and his name is donald trump and you look at these indictments and also look at georgia, there is a republican civil war, political civil war going on in georgia. yesterday you had the governor of georgia immediately after donald trump said i'm going to hold a press conference to show how georgia was rigged and the voting was rigged, immediately afterwards brian kemp tweeted out that it's not true, he said -- >> the 2020 election in georgia was not stolen.

for nearly three years now, anyone with evidence of fraud has failed to come forward under oath and prove anything in a court of law. our elections in georgia are secure, accessible, and fair and will continue to be as long as i am governor. the future of our country is at stake in 2024, and that must be our focus. >> then, of course, brad raffensperger said the most basic principles of a strong democracy are accountability and respect for the constitution and rule of law. you either have it, or you don't. and if you look, those are two -- those are the two most powerful republican leaders in the state of georgia. i heard somebody mistakenly say they barely squeaked by in 2022 for election. no, they won in a landslide, and they won in a landslide in the

republican primary, and so, jennifer palmieri, you have -- you know this and i know this, i think kemp's tweet going after donald trump's b.s. claims was so shocking when it came out as quickly as it came out, the timing of when it came out, because he didn't have to do it. he didn't have to do it then. i would say 99% of politicians would have sat back and said, it's trump, let's just let it play out a little bit. no. he went out of his way -- the governor, the republican governor of georgia where this case is going to be tried went out of his way to say, donald trump's lying and the secretary of state said this guy, he doesn't respect the constitution of the united states. you either respect it, or you don't. i thought it was extraordinarily telling and it talks about that

divide now among republicans, and i talked to greg bluestein yesterday and said it must be heated. why are they doing this in fulton county? they should do it in another district and greg said, well, that's where the crimes took place. this isn't just a democratic thing in georgia. there are a lot of republicans that are incredibly angry at what donald trump did in 2020 and how he keeps losing the senate for georgia republicans. >> you know, i watched the show yesterday. you had a great colloquy. can you have a colloquy between three people? >> i think you can. >> is that right? i didn't know if it was a two-member thing. you're the former member of congress. between you and hileman and jon meacham about republicans and why they won't have the courage to push back and why they continue to accept trump or, you know, pick their moments when they are willing to take him on and, you know, georgia is just

such an interesting case because brian kemp and brad raffensperger show that you can do this. i can't think of -- doug ducey, former governor of arizona, he did this to some degree, he stood up to trump. famously refused to take his phone call as he was certifying arizona's votes, but not in the way that brian kemp and brad raffensperger really defended georgia, really took on trump and, like you said, they won big, and -- >> huge. huge landslide wins in the gop. >> and, you know, kelly loeffler who was briefly a senator ran for re-election in 2020, david perdue who was senator from georgia, he primaried brian kemp and all backed trump and they all lost. the other republicans who, you know, backed up trump on his claims that he lost the -- that he won the 2020 election, they're now indicted, but

raffensperger and kemp show that there is a way to do this if you do it with integrity and, you know, these two as much as progressives have lauded them for what they have done, they're conservative republicans, so they still win in -- they still win in these primaries, but it shows there is a way to stand up to trump within his own party. >> all right. we want to get to chuck rosenberg on this next part a bit. mark meadows is seeking to move his fulton county election case to federal court. donald trump's former chief of staff was indicted with him and 17 others on charges of attempting to overturn trump's election loss in georgia. meadows faces two counts in the 41-count indictment including georgia's rico violations, and solicitation of violation of votes by a public officer. in a 14-page filing meadows' attorneys defended his actions

writing that he was merely acting in his official capacity as trump's chief of staff. his attorneys detailed arrangements for organizing oval office meetings, contacting state officials on trump's behalf, visiting a state government building and setting up a phone call as among his duties. meadows petitioned to move the case to federal court could result in a more favorable jury pool made up of conservative residents and it would almost certainly mean no cameras would be allowed in the courtroom. however, fani willis' office would still likely prosecute the case. trump is also expected to mount a similar effort. >> so, chuck rosenberg, last night, i'm trying to listen to music, i'm trying to unwind. >> uh-huh. >> you know, it's like you can't watch the news, you can't be -- >> i like to watch the news. >> she does 24 hours a day. >> i like to know what everyone is saying. >> and listening to music and

mika starts peppering me with questions. i was like -- >> can that -- >> i'm listening to music right now. like, let's just -- let's just -- let's just enjoy this moment. >> who makes that decision? >> yeah, exactly, and so you know what she says to me, chuck, she goes, well, if you won't answer me, i'll just ask chuck. >> i did say that. then i checked the rundown and thank god you were on at the top of 6:00. who makes this decision, and what are the variables involved? >> good questions, mika, and joe, we all have crosses to bear. mine is that jonathan earlier referred to my washington nationals as the jv team. i'm not bitter. i'm going to push through it. >> okay. okay. >> there is a provision in federal code title 28 of united states code that permits a federal officer and mark meadows was a federal officer when he served as mr. trump's chief of

staff to seek to remove a state criminal case to federal court, but there is a catch as there often is and the catch here is that for the case to be removed for a federal officer under indictment in a state court to successfully bring a petition to move it to federal court, you had to have been acting within the scope of your official duties. i think you can make an argument that ensuring a fair and free election for a senior government official is within the scope of your official duty. i don't think you can make an argument that trying to overturn a fair and free election through illegal means is within the scope of your duties, so that is the gauntlet that mr. meadows is going to need to run and anyone else who wants to make a similar motion, i fully expect mr. trump to do the same thing but they're going to have to convince a federal judge that committing a

crime, seeking to overturn a fair and free election to thwart the peaceful transition of power was within the scope of their official duties, so there is a real motion, there is a real code, there is a real provision that under the right circumstances allows for this, but i think they have a very tough road to travel to make that argument stick here. >> so procedure rally, chuck, it would go to a federal district judge in georgia, then be appealed to the 11th circuit then appealed to the supreme court. would that be the procedure for this? >> yeah, i mean generally -- the supreme court isn't, of course, required to take any appeal except under certain enumerated circumstances, but, yes, that's central the path. you go to a federal judge, you ask him or her to remove the case. i expect they'll say no because you weren't acting within the scope of your official duty. you know where you see this from time to time, there might be an agent involved shooting and the

agent was acting fully within the scope of her official duties, she was doing her job, she was applying the deadly force policy of her federal agency, but some local district attorney charges or wants to charge that agent in state court. she'll petition a federal judge to have her case removed to federal court. that petition is granted. that is sort of the normal set of facts under which you might see this. but where you are committing an underlying crime, very hard to argue that you're acting within the scope of your official duty. >> right, and eddie glaude, we've seen this time and again where donald trump has tried to get the supreme court to weigh in on his behalf on different issues, and time and time again, first of all with the election, his phony election fraud claims, they threw every one of those out. but also when he was claiming

presidential privilege and pence was claiming presidential privilege, the supreme court would have none of that, so, you know, it seems to me that if donald trump is still looking for the roberts court to help him out, he's barking up the wrong tree because they are conservative with a small "c" in this case and won't be involved unless they have to, so what does this look like? what does this look like in georgia especially? >> well, i think you're absolutely right in this regard, joe. i mean, i think part of this, as a strategy it makes sense and there's kind of an underlying strategy as well. how do we spring this out and delay, delay, delay until we get to the election and past the election? and i think at the end of the day that's the end game. let's get to the ballot box and see if we can win and gum up matters until then but i think you're absolutely right. he's lost how many times in court and i don't expect him to

win again given what we've experienced up to now. >> okay. yeah, so meanwhile two of trump's challengers in the 2024 republican primary were asked yesterday about the latest indictment for the former president. >> they're now doing an inordinate amount of resources to try to shoehorn this contest over the 2020 election into a rico statute, which was really designed to be able to go after organized crime, not necessarily to go after political activity and so i think it's an example of this criminalization of politics. i don't think that this is something that is good for the country. >> we all heard that phone call with the former president, then president at the time, where he said just find me the requisite number of votes that i would need. doesn't that feel anti-american? doesn't that feel like not what

a president should do. >> i'll continue to say it as i see it. we see the legal system being weaponized against political opponents. that's un-american and unacceptable and at the end of the day we need a better system than that and quite frankly hope to be the president of the united states where we have the opportunity to restore confidence -- >> that phone call, you heard it, right? >> yes, i draw different conclusions. >> you would do that as president. you would look -- >> he doesn't want to answer the question. >> come on. >> draw different conclusions. >> if you're willing to sit back and excuse somebody trying to steal an election, calling the republican secretary of state who says he was trying to get me to throw out votes, that's what a republican secretary of state said and a republican governor said and you sit there and claim, oh, they're politicizing the process, they're weaponizing

the process. you're not fit to be president of the united states. that's just really -- it's really disgusting and, you know, i like tim scott and i think -- >> talented. >> a really talented guy. i really -- and people ask me, who could be -- who do you think can win the nomination if trump and desantis fall through, tim scott. tim scott -- not if he does that. not if he does that. jen palmieri, it's so maddening, they keep talking about the weaponization, the weaponization of the justice department. donald trump steals nuclear secrets. he lies to the doj about turning everything back. he lies about everything. he sends his workers to try to destroy video surveillance tape that shows him moving those

documents around with top secret classified military secrets about nuclear weapons, attacks against iran, america's weaknesses and they go, oh, he's just -- he's just trying to politicize the process. he tries to steal votes from millions of americans by setting up fraudulent electors to replace electors who actually represent the millions that did vote in those seven swing states and they go, oh -- they keep pointing at that ghastly, dangerous merrick garland. can you kidding me? merrick garland and they keep looking right past the guy who stole nuclear secrets allegedly, the guy who stole military secrets, i'll still say allegedly even though got him dead to right on that, all of these things, and seriously, when are you going to -- when are you going to get serious about running for president of the united states? and telling the truth about the

guy you're running against? >> it's like it feels like what you see happening in iowa, it feels like a fantasy football league, right, like, you can make your arguments that you're making, you might even win iowa, you -- somebody might beat donald trump in iowa but it has no bearing on what's actually happening, like, the stakes of how democracy is actually under threat and probably a little bearing on who will become president at the united states, you know. it really struck me when desantis said rico was created to go after organized crime, yes. yes, it was and that's why it's being used here because it was an organized crime that trump and his allies committed, and you see rudy giuliani talking about the same thing. you see the disdain that they have for what trump did, because rudy giuliani said, well, this isn't -- rico isn't supposed to be used for election disputes as

if what happened wasn't just trying to thwart the sort of fundamental principle of what the american republic stands for. the sort of callousness with which republicans have treated this issue, i feel it is alongside the history that's being made with the indictments, we're going to look back on those words and words like what tim scott who otherwise seems to be a very honorable, as you said really talented politician, will be marked in history as, you know, if we saw this happening in another country, if we saw another leader being -- you know, berlusconi-ish. >> right. >> and backing up the person who so clearly violated this fundamental precept of the republic, what would we think of that country? >> yeah, i mean, jonathan

lemire, from stealing, and they all know he did it. they all say it off camera. they all say it off camera. they know he stole nuclear secrets and will tell you that off camera, and they know he tried to steal an election and a lot of them like tim scott actually had to run for their lives and hunker down because the mob that donald trump sent their way could have killed them. could have killed them and but for the work of some capitol cops, there's some senators who probably would have been killed by these riots, so they know the truth and yet they lie about somebody stealing nuclear secrets and trying to steal american democracy from them, from them, from us. it's just, again, there's no looking past that. >> no, there are lies and bad faith attacks, the what

aboutisms trying to sell, well, the two-tiered system of justice, biden's doj and the hunter biden matter as their go-to talking point instead of confronting donald trump, the man they're trying to beat in the primaries. they're simply not doing it. >> exactly. >> not even criticizing his behavior because apparently decided that would alienate too many of his voters but to make the electability argument. they're not even doing that to say, hey, he can't win and to our earlier conversation there are those close to president biden who think that -- if any other republican emerges as the gop nominee, the president probably can't win georgia this time around. georgia is not quite there yet for democrats, but if it's trump, they like their chances, so peter baker, this is a moment republicans, they are refusing to go after trump, but they've got an opportunity, a big one next week first republican debate. there are a lot of eyeballs on that. we don't know if trump will show

up. there is some speculation he'll arrange to turn himself into georgia prosecutors on wednesday to upstage that debate, i certainly wouldn't put it past him considering his flair for the dramatic and trying to seek attention. your latest reporting as to whether trump might make an appearance at the debate but more than that if the republicans are going to at any point, chris christie aside change tactics and use that moment or any other to finally start taking him on. >> yeah, i'm trying to remember the lesson in political science class where they said that good counterprogramming to a debate with your opponents is to turn yourself in on felony charges. i missed that that day in class obviously. i don't know. that's a new one for me. you're right. it's a fascinating convergence of these events where you have the one guy who is the dominant figure, the dominant voice in the party who is dealing with this felony, the latest felony counts against him at the same time all the others who would desperately like to get attention will be on stage and don't know he'll be there or not. i think he would like to keep up

the suspense right up to the last minute if he can. it's hard to imagine, you know, him -- that there would be a stage he wouldn't want to be on, right? he just loves to be on the stage and yet, of course, as he himself have said politically you can make the arguments because none of these people seem to be a threat to him. why elevate them? whether they have him or directly or not whether on stage personally or not they'll have to talk about him. so far we haven't seen anybody other than chris christie, asa hutchinson and will hurd be critical. mike pence is hedging more into that these days, of course, as the guy who himself was the target of the hang mike pence mob sicced on him by president trump. he's been more vocal lately. there are limbs to how far he will go and he too criticized some of these indictments and prosecutions so it's going to be an interesting moment. >> peter, thank you. chuck, i just want to ask you moving forward, not only in this

next nine days as we wait to see how these co-defendants will turn themselves in in fulton county, but back to the d.c. case, we know that donald trump at least he has said on his social media that he wants to have a news conference, i think, monday at 11 or something and already blasting these trials, blasting the people involved in them, and continuing to push election lies. is there anything that you're watching for in terms of how the judge, especially in the d.c. case, may have to feel like she has to act? >> she may. it's a great question, mika. i understand that mr. trump has an irrefutable report for all of us to read and to adore. that aside because it really doesn't have any evidentiary meaning, has no evidentiary value, the judge has a really tough path to walk. i mean, her main job is to

ensure the integrity of the judicial process to make sure both sides, not just the defendant, not just the government but both sides get a fair trial because both are entitled to it. she's going to give mr. trump some rope. he is going to be permitted to talk about the election and that it was stolen and that this is a fraud and that the democrats are targeting him and it's a witch-hunt, all of that is protected, political speech, it's fair game, have at it. what she's not going to permit him to do and there's a number of different ways she can enforce it is to attack witnesses, tamper with evidence, right, to do things to impede the efficiency and fairness of the courts. that's where she starts to put the hammer down and there are ways to do it, right, mika? she can issue a gag order, it's not something she's done yet and probably not something she wants to do but she can issue it. let's say she does and mr. trump doesn't abide it, she can find

him in contempt. there's civil contempt and criminal contempt and there are penalties that attach to both of those things. let's say that doesn't work. the prosecutors have a tool. they have their own arrow in their quiver. we saw the indictment in the southern district of florida, the federal indictment concerning documents at mar-a-lago superseded with additional counts of obstruction of justice, new additional counts charging mr. trump for trying to have security footage destroyed and if he tampers with witnesses, if he goes after witnesses, you might well see a superseding indictment in the district of columbia. that's a separate stand-alone federal crime. so, he's entitled to speak but there are certain things as the judge said he's not entitled to speak go like any other defendant and if he goes over the line and he's inclined to do that, there are a series of measures she can take and that prosecutors can take to get him back on the right side of that

line. really interesting stuff, really hard for a judge to do this. it is quite literally unprecedented. i think judge chutkan is up to the task. >> and, chuck, finally i just want to underline something you said yesterday. every day we are called or people reaching out, or we see it ourselves, these attacks against the rule of law, these attacks against these cases against the prosecutors, against the judges, and people are asking, well, what does it mean? he's going to get away with it. i want to underline again that we're just in a completely different -- we're on a completely different stage at this point, and what politicians say, what pundits say, what pollsters may tell you about what americans think about this,

what podcasters say, what cable news, just doesn't matter. it's irrelevant. the only thing that matters, it's kind of like, you know, when a team goes on the football field, the only thing that matters is what happens on that football field for those 60 minutes, press conferences, people can talk, but talk is cheap. can you once again explain, donald trump can say whatever he wants to say. at the end of the day he's going to be judged inside that courtroom, inside that jury box and nobody is going to be there to help him, but his lawyers. >> yeah, that's exactly right, joe, so right to your analogy in baseball and football, it's what happens between the lines. lots of people talk about lots of things before the game start, half of them are right and half of them are wrong but what matters is what happens between the lines. here the lines are the well of a courtroom. really four courtrooms and what

i think i mentioned the other day is that there are people whose opinions matter, and it's really the 48 jurors, 12 in each of four different courtrooms that are going to render a verdict in these cases about mr. trump and his co-defendants. by the way, what i really worry about, not so much the attacks on prosecutors, i was a prosecutor, i've been attacked. it's okay. you know, it kind of rolls off your back. i've never been a judge but judges have been attacked. i imagine they know how to handle it. what i really truly worry about are attacks on witnesses and something we haven't discussed, attacks on co-defendants, remember, mr. trump said if you come after me i'm coming after you. interestingly, you haven't seen any co-defendants split off yet. you haven't seen anyone plead guilty yet. you haven't seen anyone agree to cooperate. when you indict 19 people that

normally happens, and maybe it's a signal not just to the judges and prosecutors the way we've traditionally interpreted it but to his co-defendant, you stay in line or i come after you. that's deeply dangerous. there will be verdicts at the end of the day. they will be rendered in court by jurors. ordinary citizens drawn from the community, those are the opinions that matter. we will hear those opinions one day. >> chuck rosenberg, thank you very much. really appreciate it. thanks for being on again. >> worth the wait, huh? >> yes, at least get some answers, still ahead, senate majority leader chuck schumer is our guest. we'll get his reaction to donald trump's newest indictment, this one out of georgia. plus, we're learning more about the evidence collected by the special counsel in the federal election interference case and the, quote, momentous steps taken by twitter to protect donald trump. also ahead, one of hunter biden's attorneys has stepped

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up yet. the deadliest wildfire in more than 100 year, the whole city destroyed. generations of native hawaiian history turned into ruin. i've spoken to governor josh green multiple times and reassured him the state will have everything it needs from the federal government. it's painstaking work. it takes time. it's nerve-racking, most of the debris can't be removed until it's done. my wife jill and i will travel to hawaii as soon as i can. i don't want to get in the way. i've been to too many disaster areas but i want to go and make sure they get everything they need. >> that was president biden yesterday in wisconsin, speaking about the maui wildfires where more than 100 people are now confirmed to be dead. the red cross says more than 4,000 people are packed into nearly a dozen shelters in the wake of the destruction. yesterday maui county began to identify those who died and we're learning more about the

harrowing stories of citizens trying to flee the fire or protect family members. hawaii's governor says the wildfires are likely the worst natural disaster in the history of the state. in some other news this morning, a key attorney for hunter biden will no longer represent him. "the new york times" reports attorney christopher clark stepped down yesterday after revealing he intends to testify as a witness on behalf of the president's son. federal court rules in delaware prohibit clark from being a witness advocate. clark represented hunter biden in plea negotiations to end a five-year justice department investigation into tax and gun offenses, but a judge delayed that deal. plea talks then broke down meaning the case would likely have to go to trial. we'll continue to follow this story. overseas, north korea has

confirmed that u.s. army soldier travis king crossed into its territory. a statement from the state run korean central news agency claimed king had expressed his willingness to seek refugee status in north korea. u.s. defense officials have said that king willfully and without authorization crossed into north korea in july while taking a civilian tour of the demilitarized zone. coming up, one of -- donald trump's fourth indictment now looms over the first republican debate next week. will the gop front-runner show up despite his mounting legal trouble? we'll explain straight ahead on "morning joe." so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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when hillary brings up a point like that and she talks about words that i said 11 years ago, i think it's disgraceful and i think she should be

ashamed of herself if you want to know the truth. >> oh, my god. that is donald trump deflecting from his own troubles in a presidential debate in october 2016, just two days after the "access hollywood" tape was made. >> seems so long ago. >> as john heilemann says about donald trump, it is always confession or projection. >> our next guest is looking at how trump's current troubles are weighing over the republicans' first presidential debate. now just days away. the piece by senior columnist matt lewis is entitled "showing up to the gop debate would be the ultimate trump flex" and it reads in part this, for normal politicians one indictment would be enough to go into hiding and avoid interrogation by a debate moderator, but, remember, trump is not a normal politician and just as there is precedent for trump to skip a primary debris,

there is also precedent for him to exploit a political debate in an effort to move past a damaging scandal by saying outrageous things and steamrolling his opponents. case in point, trump turned out to be incredibly lucky that a presidential debate occurred on october 9th, 2016, just two days after the "access hollywood" story broke. now it's likely that whoever leaked the "access hollywood" video thought they were delivering the coup de gras by virtue of their impeccable timing but had the exact opposite effect. the debate ironically helped draw attention away from the scandal which had previously dominated the news cycles. no normal person could have pulled this off but instead of being ashamed or contrite trump went on offense against hillary clinton. >> and matt lewis joins us now

from "the daily beast." we have eddie glaude jr. and he has the first question. >> i read your article. it was insightful but here we are in 2023, do you think if he gets on that stage, will it be the same donald trump? i understand you say what he can do but with chris christie focusing on him as opposed to rubio and others, do you think it would be as effective? could he bring the same show at this stage in his political career as it were? >> well, i do think chris christie is kind of the x factor. i'm curious to see if donald trump is afraid of chris christie, so afraid of chris christie he doesn't show up, that he uses excuses such as, i'm not going to sign the pledge, the rnc's pledge or whether donald trump is just an ego maniac who craves attention, who loves attention and who now feels that he has a bigger chip on his shoulder, has to unburden himself and play the victim

again that he shows up in milwaukee and i think i'm leaning toward the latter. he may not fully appreciate the danger that chris christie specifically poses and, look, i think there's another logical argument for why trump might want to show up. we've already seen that the republicans are, you know, loathe to criticize him and, in fact, they're supporting him and these indictments, but there is an opening, i think for someone like a ron desantis, for example, to say, look, donald trump is the victim of democrats who are trying to criminalize the political process, but let's be honest, he has these four indictments, there's no way he's going to be able to run an effective campaign next year in the general election having to appear in court and, you know, in florida and new york and atlanta and all that. if donald trump shows up, i think the biggest flex would be to turn himself in, you know, to surrender himself and then go to

the debate, i think donald trump shows, look, i can walk and chew gum at the same time, and so i think if you add that in and just his compulsive need for attention, i think he shows. >> so, jonathan lemire, i'm going to take the other side of it. i do think he's scared of chris christie. he saw what chris christie did to marco rubio when chris christie went into a debate with one thing in mind. he knows chris christie put jared kushner's father in jail for a very long time. he knows he's a prosecutor who's ruthless and knows how to push his case, and he also knows that his secret sauce in 2016 was being the disrupter, right, shaking hillary clinton up on the debate stage, shaking

everybody else up on the debate stage. that gig is like eight years old, right? that's elvis in '77 now. and i think chris christie's got his number, and he knows, hey, donald trump has a gut instinct, his political gut instinct is second to none. like he sees it coming, and so i just don't -- i think he's scared to death of chris christie and will not have the guts to go or the nerve to go on stage with chris christie anywhere. >> a person in trump's orbit a few days ago told me when the decision is not yet made if he will go to the debate, he said, well, an argument to not go would be chris christie trains his sights on ron desantis and maybe finishes him off. they're well aware of christie's strength on the debate stage and chris christie has not yet qualified for the second republican debate so if trump wants to sit this one out, maybe he can show up on a debate stage a few weeks later and not have

to deal with christie. matt lewis, you know, i was there, 2016 for that debate. and when donald trump showed up 48 hours after the "access hollywood" tape with a number of women who accused the clintons of inappropriate conduct in the years past and changed the news cycle. you documented it. he was able to get -- steady himself but had help back then and the conservative media clearly at that point was with him and has been with him ever since. how d now? so many of the outlets, fox news included, seem to be flirting, had flirted with other candidates, you know, do you sense now that they are fully back on trump or keeping their options open because that conservative ecosystem has been so vital to his rise. >> yeah, i think they are largely with him. there's a temptation, a danger, i think, that they could leave him and maybe that is another reason that trump would want to show up at the debate. look, if he's logical, he might not show up at the debate, you

could argue trump could say i'm up by 40 points, let's let everyone attack ron desantis instead of me. i just think he's guided more by things like fear and the craving of attention and the more he feels that his back is against the wall and it doesn't have to be politically, it could be legally, i think that will drive him to turn out and to -- i think he has fun at these debates and maybe he should be afraid of chris christie, i'm not sure that he actually has that in him. >> well, it also depends on, you know, exactly how they carry out the debate. there's going to be eight candidates on stage. is it going to be an actual debate, or is it going to be framed in a way where trump can own the narrative and talk over people, talk through time lines and it isn't a debate. it could be a great opportunity for him given the way he likes to operate. i disagree. i think he'll show up. i also think if he tries to say,

oh, i won't go because of the loyalty pledge, that is sort of trump saying i don't think i'm going to be the nominee, so i'm not sure that's going to fly. i think ultimately he ends up showing up. we'll see what happens. senior columnist for "the daily beast," matt lewis, his piece is online now and still ahead, much more on donald trump's indictment out of georgia. chris matthews joins our political panel, plus we'll get andrew weissman's legal take on everything going on. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ breeze driftin' on... ♪ [coughing] ♪ ...by, you know how i feel. ♪ if you're tired of staring down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, ♪ ♪ it's a new day... ♪ ...stop settling. ♪ ...and i'm feelin' good. ♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler,

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now, in terms of some of these local d.a.s in florida, we've actually suspended two, one in tampa, one in orlando, over the last year for failure to follow their duties and responsibilities and as president, we will lean in against some of these local prosecutors if they are not following the law or if they are abandoning their duty to enforce the law evenly. >> well, he makes authoritarianism so sexy. he fired people who promised to run their office to voters in a certain way. and these elected officials stayed true to what they campaigned on, but ron desantis, he doesn't like their views.

>> huh-uh. >> on law enforcement, on crime. again, that's fine. he doesn't have to agree with them. he's governor. he could try to pass legislation, sign legislation, but instead, again, it's remarkable, he's actually going in and pulling people out, elected officials, taking them -- using -- >> i think that's going against the will of the voters. >> it's going against the will of all of the voters who voted for these people to do exactly what they were doing. so, again, it's the opposite of small government conservatism. it's big government authoritarianism and i can't imagine republicans wouldn't be concerned about this, because if a republican can do that to a democrat, what happens when there's a democratic governor who doesn't like a law and order republican state attorney.

>> yeah. >> they can do the same thing. so it's so dangerous and it's dangerous, not just for democrats or liberals or progressives, it's danger for republicans and conservatives because it sets a really bad precedent. >> so responding to donald trump's latest indictment, desantis never criticized the former president's actions, instead he took issue with the rico charges and as you saw, bragged about removing prosecutors. >> elected prosecutors. >> bragged about it and then suggested he could do the same as president. yippee. welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, august 16th, jonathan lemire, jennifer palmieri and eddie glaude jr. are all still with us. joining the conversation we have "the new york times" opinion columnist david french, former msnbc host chris matthews joins us, and staff writer at the "the new yorker," susan glasser joins us. several prominent republicans in georgia are railing against

donald trump's continued election lies and promises to reveal information detailing fraud in the 2020 vote. replied to a trump social media post yesterday writing in part this, for nearly three years now, anyone with evidence of fraud has failed to come forward, under oath, and prove anything in a court of law. our elections in georgia are secure, accessible, and fair and will continue to be as long as i am governor. georgia's secretary of state, brad raffensperger also put out a statement writing, the most basic principles of a strong democracy are accountability and respect for the constitution and rule of law. you either have it, or you don't. i appreciate these principles but the bottom line is, donald trump and right wing media and anybody on the republican side in leadership, many of them, are

still backing his lies. refusing to -- or refusing to straighten them out. >> some of them are. i talked about "new york post" op-ed this morning, dan mclaughlin who tried to write it in a way that "the new york post" readers would appreciate the most. there's a lot of anti-anti-trumpism in there. but the bottom line is, he's done this to himself. don't become suckers and follow the democrats who are trying to prop up trump candidates. you did it in 2022, and you lost every single race by election deniers, so they're starting to get the message out there, and, you know, we always ask, well, where are the republicans that will stand up? tim scott embarrassed himself earlier today despite the fact that i think he's a very talented candidate and could be

a real contender, but still is going to war against the rule of law in america, which is really sad and depressing, especially since he's willing to trash the rule of law and trash the justice department and trash the fbi, all for a failed reality tv host who stole nuclear secrets and tried to steal an election and tim knows because tim was there. but that said, yesterday we also had something quite extraordinary, chris matthews. we had the governor, the georgia governor, a republican governor who came out really quickly and really dramatically in a way he didn't have to do, and may i add, he did it in a way that most politicians wouldn't have done it, considering the timing, and i just want to show you the numbers of this guy and what republicans think of him in his own state. brian kemp had a senator running

against him, david perdue. david perdue was the republican -- was the republican candidate who was trump's crony. brian kemp saying the same things then in that campaign that he is saying now gets 73% of the republican vote and the republican primary in 2022. standing up to donald trump's election lies. and so as we look, chris, at a jury, it may not just be democrats as greg bluestein with "the atlanta journal-constitution" that have a problem with donald trump trying to steal the election. a lot of republicans do in the state of georgia, as well. >> you know, governor kemp is really providing great evidence for this trial because he's making it clear there was no question about the results in georgia, and the fact, this is

not the deep state. atlanta is not the deep state. it's not part of washington, d.c. and raffensperger, i think that quote you just showed a moment ago made it very clear there was only one defendant in the case in fulton county. of those 19 co-defendants, he's the only one that took the presidential oath to preserve, protect and defend the united states constitution. that is donald trump. only one person took that oath, and the other thing is raffensperger's wonderful put it you either respect the constitution or you don't respect the constitution. clearly trump doesn't. and now you have the governor and you have the secretary of state making it very clear that georgia voted for joe biden, yes, they did, just like arizona and just like wisconsin, the states decided the election. it's going to be very clear for that jury that sits in washington who won the election. the only one disagreeing with be donald trump. >> yeah, donald trump, and, you

know, david french, georgia republicans have seen the chaos that donald trump's lies have sown. it's destroyed one senate candidate after another but for donald trump, mitch mcconnell would have been the majority leader after the 2020 elections, but for donald trump in georgia, mitch mcconnell would have been the most likely the same in 2022. nobody -- he's done more damage to the georgia republican party than donald trump. as jonathan lemire has reported, the white house knows joe biden would never win in the state of georgia in 2024 but for one person, and that one person is the person being tried in the state of georgia probably in the next six to nine months. you're not hearing, david?

>> oh, i'm very sorry. you blanked out for a second. yeah, look, georgia has suffered the consequences of trump's conduct more than -- georgia republican party more than anybody else. i mean, there's no question, but here's what's important, even before, even before georgia republicans started to suffer those consequences with those lost senate races, already brad raffensperger and brian kemp unlike so many other republicans had some steroids in their wheaties, they were standing up to donald trump when so many other republicans hadn't. they stood up early. they did not yield in any way, shape or form. brad raffensperger in particular was outspoken, and, joe, you pop those numbers up, and the numbers show that both of them won their races and they won against trump appointed primary

challengers before they won their general elections in a rout so these are people who stood up to donald trump and their political careers continued and to this day, brian kemp is a popular georgia republican governor, and so this idea that you cannot possibly stand up to donald trump and have your political career survive has been disproven by these individuals and, in fact, the reality is if you capitulate to donald trump and you fall under the big lie again, then your political career is going to suffer as the 2022 midterm elections demonstrated. >> you know, david, i tried time and again to explain to republicans in 2016 that donald trump was a bully and that if they showed weakness, he would run them over and if they stood up to him and they were tough, he actually would probably back off and try to strike a deal

with them where they could work together. i had the talk with paul ryan saying you have to stand up to the guy and paul was like, well, i just want to pass my tax bill and, you know, if i just stay out of the way, no, that never -- you cannot stay out of his way and so i've always viewed it a tragedy and i'll just say this. i went after -- chris matthews knows, i would go on chris matthews' show and if a democrat did something, i would go after a democrat hard. if a republican did something, i would go after the republicans hard. when newt gingrich, i didn't think, was working hard enough to balance the budget, and working hard enough to be a small government conservative, we ran him out of town and you know what happened, in a very, very safe republican district, i became more popular. this has always been the tragedy, i thought, that nobody did what kemp and raffensperger

did until 2020. that you could go after donald trump, you could be strong. you could do it in your district and your voters would go along with you because they were your voters first. but no other republicans ever tried that other than kemp and raffensperger. >> yeah, and not only did they not try it, those republicans who did stand up, many of them not all of them were doing it when they were lame ducks, they were on their way out and they did it in ones and twos and so they could be isolated, they could be cut off, they could be cast out of the republican party, but when kemp and raffensperger did it, they did it together. they were united, and then they stood -- they kept standing up to trump. they kept showing integrity in this moment, and they have been politically rewarded for it in a tough state for republicans over

the last few years and it's been a touch state for republicans because of donald trump. and, look, there are other state officials who have stood up to trump and remained popular, as well. i mean, governor ducey of arizona stood up to trump and he remained popular, though, of course, not with the core base of the arizona republican party which has gone nuts, censured him, but there are republicans who have stood up to trump who have remained popular and i do think it is very interesting we've seen this pattern where chris christie is now right up there with ron desantis, now i say up there, they're still not very high in the polls but he's there with ron desantis in new hampshire standing up and taking on trump directly because if you're not taking on trump, if you're not presenting the case for the alternative to trump aggressively why would republican primary voters want to vote for you especially since the people are voting in republican primaries right now are overwhelmingly part of that

maga base, what is it that is going to take them away from trump other than taking him on? just being quiet and passive in the face of all these indictments is not a sign of presidential strength in any way, shape, or form. >> susan, let's shift a bit from how republicans will respond to donald trump in this sense but and talk directly about donald trump. we know we have this 98-page sprawling indictment. trump just announced that he's going to release a 100-page report about election fraud in georgia. what does this suggest to you about how he's going to operate in the context of this trial, in the context of these trials in some ways? >> well, that's right. i mean it's this fusion of campaign and courtrooms such as we've never seen before. yet, another entry in the history books for donald trump. what is notable is that he continues to go back to the donald trump playbook, right? he doesn't have any new

playbooks. his playbook to litigate in the court of public opinion and, you know, it's very interesting to me in fact in all of these cases you haven't heard very much from trump and his legal team that is an actual beginnings of a legal defense. there's enormous amount of what aboutism and gaslighting and hunter biden. there is repeated efforts to just simply sort of say over and over again that the election was rigged and stolen, rigged and stolen and this major announcement that he's going to release more evidence about georgia's election, i mean, come on. the thing that is so striking to me about all of these cases is that, you know, trump's basic -- he doesn't have a defense on the facts. he did these acts. he called and pressured these elected officials in georgia. it's on tape. we've all heard it. he had the classified documents in mar-a-lago, right, so he doesn't have much of a factual defense for many of these cases

and what he's doing is essentially just banking on once again the court of public opinion. he has been surrounded by republican courtiers, by advisers who continues even if they advised him the election wasn't rigged and stolen, many of those people, some of them potential witnesses in these cases have endorsed donald trump for 2024 even after they told him that the election wasn't rigged and stolen or that his actions leading up to january 6th were a mistake and, yet, there they are once again, so i think he just thinks he's got this invulnerability. he's never been held accountable and he somehow seems to think that the political season will save him from that once again. >> yeah, to susan's point, trump has said he'll have an event monday at bedminster to deliver this report, the last thing most republicans want to do is relitigate the 2020 election. it also begs the question, if he had this report, why has he sat on it for 2 1/2 years?

let's bring you in on something we've been kicking around all morning. the first republican debate is one week from tonight. first you think trump would show up but secondly, do you see any moment here, you know, we know the polls are, trump's lead is big and only growing, that any of these republicans, except, of course, chris christie will use this moment with a lot of people watching to start taking shots at the former president and current front-runner? >> well, you know, it's an old joe mccarthy tactic, the senator from wisconsin used to say, i'm going to name names this afternoon and get all the press gathered together and say it's a big afternoon from joe mccarthy and got the headlines at noon but never had the names and it's just this tactic of i'm going to tell you on monday all i know about what happened in georgia. give me a break. i thought for a long time and maybe i till do that trump has been dragging around that cadaver, that zombie, desantis, as his number one challenger so that all the other contributors

to the debate this wednesday would attack desantis. he's hoping that desantis will take all the bullets for him and i think that's still his strategy. the problem with that strategy is, desantis is so weak right now, he's almost disappearing, chris christie is ahead of him in new hampshire. it's clear he may not be the target zone that trump is trying to create rather than himself. i still think that's the right strategy. i disagree with mika. i think there's a good chance he will show up because he's crazy but why would you go on to a stage with all these other candidates who can -- 90% of the time with their own, whatever thoughts asa hutchinson has to have, do you think trump will listen while asa hutchinson talks? i don't think so. i think he will use desantis as a zombie to take all the bullets. >> that was so good. okay. >> so it's interesting. >> sorry, mika. i really thinks he wants the zombie. >> reverend al's opinion was

that i think it's great insight, he talked about how he obviously knows some of trump's lawyers and, chris, he said that his lawyers are horrified by the prospect of donald trump going on a debate stage and trying to win the moment saying something outrageous that would be yet another admission against interests, but he gets so swept away this the moment on the debate stage that he says one thing after another that absolutely damages cases from, well, in all the national league east cities from new york to washington to miami to atlanta. >> yeah, he has another message, he's got two messages to stell now, one is what his lawyers are telling him to say so in addition to winning the debate he has to also connive to create this issue that he believed he won the election on election night in 2020. he believed he won, so he last to keep saying i believed.

he keeps putting in that phrase, i believe, i thought so the lawyers are actually getting some control over him. that could be a more complicated affair than he'd like to think it is. but i'll tell you if he's going to sit and listen to seven other candidates talk about their big issues, chris christie, the media loves him. he's going to -- "the new york times," he'll be in the second or third paragraph no matter what happens. chris christie is great. he's attacking but every time he attack, every time the courts attack trump, the prosecutors attack him his microphone gets bigger. every time trump faces a charge, the maga people demand more from him. he gets a bigger microphone and so trump is going to be all over the place this week and i think he might do it from a remote location. he may not be at the debate place because he'd rather 15 a whole hour than to have to share it with seven other guys. >> i'm not sure if it's better to show up or not but the point

is he is this control, right? he can go to the debate and he can dominate or he could not show up and he can dominate from someplace else. everyone will still be reacting to him and as a campaign veteran i know you set up your debate week, debate week gets happening, there's a debate on wednesday, on monday you want a big newsmaking opportunity to set the stage for the debate, trump has done that with saying he's going to release his long awaited report on the georgia elections on, monday, the 21st. the debate, that means everybody will react to him no matter where he is but, david, what do you see as the opportunity here, say trump does not come. what do you see as the opportunity here for the republicans that will be on that debate stage? >> yeah, i mean, at that point the opportunity is to become the new ron desantis, so he is the next stepping stone, i think he would be the person to absorb the slings and arrows, chris christie will go after donald trump, but a lot of these republicans will see a much

safer path than going after ron desantis, where they can take down the next closest competitor and do so in a way that maybe won't get the wrath of the crowd so one of the challenges that these guys will face, if they are going after donald trump, they may have one of those moments where the crowd boos them or comes after them or that they're being seen in a league with the media, the hated media, so, you know, we'll see but it looks like ron desantis will be the target as usual and trump will likely emerge unscathed. >> chris matthews says, the zombie. >> my god, our panel is going to stay with us thankfully. coming for more of this. coming up, donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election required a large team of attorneys. but it turns out, they never got paid. >> oh this, is shocking. >> so shocking.

>> nobody who's ever dealt with him. >> incluing one of his most loyal allies. we'll have more on that and chuck schumer will join the table to talk about trump's latest indictment out of georgia as well as the one-year anniversary of the inflation reduction act. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. more shopping? you should watch your spending honey. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. check it out, you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, i'll look into that. let me put a reminder on my phone. save $700 dollars. pick up dad from airport?

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rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. ( ♪♪ ) the first fda-approved rsv vaccine. arexvy is used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways.

arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv and over 94% effective in those with these health conditions. ( ♪♪ ) arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. rsv can be serious. talk to your doctor or pharmacist about arexvy today. rsv? make it arexvy. several of the attorneys w.h.o. represented donald trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election were never paid for their work. >> what? >> he didn't pay anybody. so cheap. >> did they not know this going in? >> they were so excited to be

with him? are they like now going, oh, my god, you mean -- >> what? he doesn't pay? >> you mean the great pumpkin doesn't rise from the pumpkin patch? >> it doesn't. >> every halloween evening. >> that big orange pumpkin. >> candy. >> okay. this latest news is according to testimony from congressional investigators and federal election commission records. not only were they not compensated -- >> wait, but he stole $250 million from his supporters. >> so dumb. >> and lied to his supporters that it was to stop the steal and raised a quarter of a billion dollars and did not pay them. >> not only were they not compensated. i feel like we can make fun of this a little bit. you know, i don't like it when donald trump has taken advantage of people. >> like the tammy faye bakker and jim bakker thick. >> these lawyers.

not only were they not compensated, their lawsuits and false claims helped the trump campaign and allies raise $250 million as cnbc reports among those who were stiffed. trump's closest ally, rudy giuliani, the records show that giuliani's companies were only reimbursed for travel and not the $20,000 a day he requested to be paid. that's a whole other story. $20,000 a day. >> i've got to say, giuliani may not have gotten paid for his work to donald trump after the election but he did get indicted. but, david french, i always talk about the -- how my grandmom would send her social security checks sadly even though we -- my parents tried to intervene to jim and tammy faye bakker while they were building their massive multimillion dollar scam

operation in charlotte, north carolina. here, we've seen steve bannon sent to jail or at least arrested for his phony scheme to raise, i don't know, $10 million or whatever to build the wall. i find it hard to believe that jack smith doesn't come back with a superseding indictment that doesn't go after this $250 billion -- million dollars that donald trump fraudulently raised claiming the election was rigged when he knew it wasn't rigged. i mean, that seems to be -- that would have been the first crime i would have brought as a prosecutor because it would have been the easiest to prove. >> well, believe it or not, it's probably going to be easier to prove the crimes that smith has already charged than that one. i mean, there's going to be a lot of latitude when you're raising money for a campaign for

a cause, you've got a lot of latitude in how you spend those dollars and so it's actually going to be easier to do what jack smith did in the absence of smoking guns regarding fraudulent intent, for example, say in the fund-raising, it's going to be a lot easier to do what smith did. he did that sort of instead of the shotgun blast indictment, he did much more of the rifle shot indictment, narrowly focused on the specific claims related to the effort to overturn the election. i think he wants to get to trial on this matter as soon as he possibly can and the more he lards up his indictment of trump, the slower that case is going to proceed so i might be a little -- could be wrong but i might be a little bit surprised if he throws anything else, you know, into the stew in this court in this case in d.c. >> susan glasser, your latest column in "the "new yorker"" is entitled in georgia trump and his gang get the mob treatment.

you write in part trump, who learned much of his aggressive legal playbook from the late celebrity mob lawyer roy cohn, has been compared many times throughout the years to a mobster. but this is the first time anyone has done so in a court of law. it's entirely possible that the whole world will get to watch as fulton county district attorney fani willis sometime in the middle of the presidential election presents her evidence against the ex-president and his 18 accomplices. there is nothing as we all know by now that trump loves more than appearing on television, in attacking the 2020 election, he may have got himself a new reality show in time for the 2024 race. after everything we've already been through with trump, this seems to me a truly ominous new prospect. can this possibly be good for democracy? and i guess, susan, there are a

lot of challenges already to our democracy because of donald trump. i think what could be more troubling is not following through on accountability. your thoughts? >> no, absolutely. i mean, that's specifically the question of are we all going to be sitting here next year in the middle of a presidential election watching the donald trump show in a courtroom in georgia and i just -- i don't know what that is going to be like. is it going to be an o.j. simpson type moment? it does seem to me that we are going to find it to be a compelling spectacle and, you know, donald trump, the reality tv show star, seems to now have gotten himself the potential for a courtroom show. now, obviously it's something he's not going to be in control of and i think that will be part of the spectacle of the whole thing but once again, you know, he's the eclipse ha blots out the sun and it's almost as if the whole thing is being arranged for this incredible

convergence of courtroom and television and campaign. >> chris, you've seen a lot over the course of your political career. let's pan out to echo susan's point and pan out for a second. what -- the four indictments are in. we're new going to be in the process of the trials and all this other stuff. what are you making? what does this mean for our democracy in this moment, to answer in some ways susan's question, what does this mean for the state of the country in this moment? >> well, in the case of rudy giuliani, we were just talking about him, it means a complete downfall. i covered him during the 9/11 situation. i remember a very courageous mayor walking around below the world trade center with all the soot coming down and all the hell going down and he was giving us the facts as he knew them, as he learned them right away of the he was giving us the facts. that's what he was good at factual reporting, if you will and now if he's going to get

disbarred and lose his license and trump is not even paying the guy. the insults never stop. you got to wonder when he's going to turn on trump and say, you know what, i hooked my wagon to you and i've been facing nothing but disaster and i'm going to turn my wagon around to somebody else, maybe he'll do that. i don't know. in the court of public opinion, the american people used to believe in basic facts like the constitution, like the president took the oath to, all the presidents did. they all took the oath, not only to the constitution but the fact that when they lost an election they were going to say so to the american people on television since the days of television, they have come forth, stood in front of the camera and said i lost the election, damn it, i lost this election and i'm sorry i did and let everybody down but i did. what did the president do in 2020 add midnight? he sat there and waited for rudy giuliani to show up and tell him he won or he could make it look like he won. that's where democracy is and the maga people for whatever

reason i've got some in my family, everybody might have them too. they are with trump through thick and thin through facts, through "access hollywood," through everything, storm, e. jean carroll and buy it all to take on the establishment. he's their guy, as a champion on issues like the border, he is their champion on fighting immigration, and, of course, on being a victim. he's almost like a new testament figure. have you noticed he's beginning to edge into the idea that i'm your savior. i take the hits for you. i'm the victim like you. >> retribution. >> i'm paying for your sins. it's frightening how he's gotten to that point of this new testament figure. >> sick. >> i think the maga people are with him on that. >> yep, they are. >> who doesn't have the first clue about the new testament which he's proven time and time again. a guy who said, no, i've never asked for forgiveness. why would i ever ask god for

forgiveness? the heart of the gospel, speaking of the gospels, david, let's say a word real quickly about tim keller, a friend of this show, a friend of ours, a guy who again did something that i never thought possible, created a spiritual revival and a bit of a revolution in manhattan. i never saw anything like it. i had a good friend bethany jenkins who went to the first baptist church in pensacola and said, you need to go to this church. i'm, like, you know, what good comes from that? what church do i want to go to in manhattan? i was blown away and then the most shocking thing for me was, like, three or four weeks over i was going all over the city whenever i had time and went to the church that they were occupying on i think broadway

and maybe it was amsterdam. i walk in, and it's 5:30 sunday afternoon service. i get there at 5:15. i go through the doors. the entire church is packed. i'm at the time probably 50, 51, 52. i was easily the oldest person in that church and i had to stand in the back for an hour. joyfully did it because i was so happy to see this church on 5:30 in the afternoon on sunday packed with young professionals who had a million different other things they could have been doing at that time but they went in to hear this bald man who never once tried to be charismatic talk for an hour about jesus. talk about how remarkable tim

keller's ministry was. >> yeah, a man of integrity, a man of compassion and then a man of real wisdom who had the gift of communicating it. i remember, joe, i remember going into redeemer church in manhattan in the mid-1990s, early in his ministry in new york city and it was packed in the mid-1990s. it was really amazing, and he could take the most complex and often contentious sort of elements of biblical teaching and boil it down and make it understandable and accessible to people, and at a time when so many people have been embroiled in scandal and so many people have -- when you get -- the more you get up close to them the more disappointing they might be. he was the opposite. he just grew in people's understanding of his real integrity and then when you got to know him up close and personal there's that old phrase never meet your heroes, well,

tim keller was a hero of mine and it was a great privilege to be a friend of his later in his life and to get to know him up close was to be even more impressed with him. >> and, of course, yesterday, mika, his large group of friends and loved ones said good-bye to him. >> yeah. >> in new york. >> thank you, david french, for those words about tim keller and thank you, chris matthews for being on this morning and susan glasser, as well. coming up, the latest on the search for survivors in hawaii where the death toll from the devastating wildfires has now reached at least 106 people with many members of that community still waiting for answers about missing loved ones. nbc news was granted rare access inside the burn zone with search teams. that reporting is next on "morning joe." with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spray flonase sensimist daily for non-drowsy,

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46 past the hour. at least 106 lives have been lost in the devastating

wildfires in hawaii. nbc news national correspondent miguel almaguer was granted rare access inside the burn zone with search teams. >> reporter: this morning, ground zero of the burn zone, for the first time the federal government giving nbc news an up close view of the destruction as search and rescue look for the missing. >> how would you describe the search area? how daunting is it? >> it's the worst thing i've ever seen. this is apock limp tick. it is terrible. >> reporter: many were escaping in vehicles and now authorities have to go car by car and block by block to see if they can find anyone who didn't make it out alive. with more cadaver dogs on the way, officials expect to identify up to 20 new victims a day. 79-year-old buddy jantoc and 74-year-old robert dyckman are the first to officially be

identified. the governor says multiple children are also among the dead. >> we are heart sick that we've had such loss. >> reporter: for familiars like clifford, the wait is agonizing. his 98-year-old grandmother louise is still missing. >> i love you, grandma. i hope you're at peace. >> we go slow, methodical, thorough, and then we're respectful. these are somebody's family. >> reporter: from every direction and every angle you can see the true scope of the damage. this is what authorities are sifting through every day. the fire came through here at 80 miles an hour. they need to search every building and every home before they can say their job here is complete. though the cause of the fire is still under investigation, resident shane tru says he watched a downed power line ignite dry brush outside his home. >> flames start almost immediately after from that dry

grass. >> reporter: at least three lawsuits have now been filed against hawaiian electric, alleged turning off the power lines would have saved lives. the utility company had no comment. now a week after the fire trued this beachfront haven families are left waiting for answers from the ashes. >> nbc's miguel almaguer reporting and we'll be staying on that story and following the search and rescue operations and if there is any hope, but there is a lot of thoughts that the death toll is going to rise here. a newly released firearms report is casting doubt on star alec baldwin's account of what happened on the set of "rust." back in 2021 cinematographer halyna hutchins was shot and killed by a prop gun baldwin was handling during a rehearsal. he has insisted he never pulled the trigger of the gun saying instead that he pushed back the

hammer because hutchins wanted a close-up of the gun's loaded barrel. a firearms expert was brought in by investigators to determine if the fired bullet was a result of a malfunction. the recently completed report found that the trigger had to have been pulled or at least, quote, depressed sufficiently to push back the hammer on the gun. special prosecutors on the case previously dropped criminal charges against baldwin but said a final decision on charging would be made this month. attorneys for baldwin did not reply to requests for comment. up next much more on donald trump's fourth indictment as georgia braces for the former president and his 18 co-conspirators to surrender to authorities. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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a small town in minnesota could soon without a police force after everyone on staff resigned due to complicated issues. the town has a population of around 1,000 people. its police chief handed in his resignation last wednesday with the rest of the staff following suit soon after. those resignations become official on august 23rd, and the $22 an hour for staff is well below the pay scale for employees of the even smaller departments. >> and we are talking about small towns, big towns. we are hearing more and more

from police unions. the crisis, the public safety crisis it's causing from philadelphia to oakland, we are starting to really see, especially from oakland naacp, and also from elected officials in philadelphia and washington and other cities that just the quality of life issues are suffering. how in the world are we ever going to be able to balance the need for strong policing and competent police. you don't call it law and order, you call it -- >> safety and the security. safety and security. >> i love that. how do we get safety and secure? again, it is, in fact, and usually when you look at big

cities it's people of color suffering the most when there's an upshot in crime. >> yeah, we have to have the debate about policing in the country and safety and security, and there's a wonderful documentary "sound of police" on hulu, and it's about investment. we know small towns are having problems paying teachers, medical care and police officers and the like. there has to be an infrastructure. you have to pay people enough so they can put food on the table and pay for their kids' college.

you have to pay people. period. >> you look at the idea, we are going to cut services here and there, and i talked about medicaid, for instance. there's an idea that somehow medicaid is just for the others, eddie. no, if you are a rural voter and you vote for republicans around the country, you may want to ask your member of congress about those cuts that he or she is making to medicaid because that's disproportionally impacting rural hospitals and impacting rural retirement communities, nursing homes, and disproportionately impacting care, pediatric care. you name it, the very people who need medicaid the most are voting for politicians who are voting to slash medicaid.

>> absolutely, joe. we have an obligation -- this is the social contract we make have each other, and if we don't, then things begin to break down. pay the people. pay the police. pay your teachers. chuck schumer is standing by and he joins the conversation straight ahead on "morning joe."

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why has he been indicted? >> they are trying to do so -- the only thing is the democrats have done even worse but they control the house and all that, so they can do that to trump. >> why did he get indicted? >> because the democrats don't like him. >> i guess i really don't know. they are just trying to dig up stuff to bring it up so he doesn't run again, and he's not

a politician but a businessman and they don't want him up there again. >> the democrats are coming after him so they can get him out of the election. okay. well -- hey, all right. the red sox won last night. i'm just going to let that pass by. >> actually, you can't. >> the thing is -- the thing is, people -- what i find is people will tell me, oh, i don't look at the news anymore because it's so biassed. >> but they think they do. >> why don't you read murdoch's "wall street journal"? they have a great news section. they will say, the ap or reuters, and they will say, i don't get news, and then you find out they are reading facebook posts that people -- >> watching fox. >> that people typed up while sitting on the toilet or

something instead of news articles where you have -- i'm just saying there's no test, there are no editors, no balance. they say, oh, i don't follow the news anymore, but they will go to conspiracy websites run by chinese religious cults. >> or trump's social media where -- >> well, what can you say other than i will pray for them. and despite trump's indictments, president biden is focusing on the legislature, and anybody

interviewed there has no idea how the present president is making lives better. >> a visit was part of the effort to acknowledge the affects of the inflation reduction act signed into law a year ago today. president biden said he was not there to declare victory on the economy just yet. >> we have more work to do, but we always had a plan at turning things around, and making things more competitive. bidenomics are just another way of staying restoring the american dream. that's what it is. just restoring the american dream. i believe every american willing to work hard should be able to get a job no matter where they live, in the heart town, small towns, and that's the american dream, and that's bidenomics.

it's always worked in this country, investing in america. investing in americans. because when we invest in our people and the economic class, it benefits all americans. >> the white house says since biden has been in office private companies have pledged $3 billion in manufacturing and investments in wisconsin. the president is expected to mark the first anniversary of the inflation reduction act at the white house. >> majority leader, chuck schumer, is with us. if you want to sum up the economy and the attacks against biden and the senate that are

helping the economy, and most economists fear two things. it's two things. one, china's economy is weakening too quickly and that will have an impact on imports and exports, and, two, the united states' economy is too strong. not making this up. china's is too weak and america's is too strong, and they are afraid it will keep growing so fast we will have inflation again because it's so robust. i mean, these are problems? it's remarkable how resilient our economy is, isn't it? >> it is. our economy is doing so well and it's in good part because of the work we did in the senate and the president did over the last summer. the infrastructure bill and the chips and science bill, and

today we are celebrating one year of the ira, and let's go over what they do. first, it's the most significant reduction in the amount of carbon going into the atmosphere, the most significant climate legislation we ever had, and that's creating millions of new green jobs, and whether it's opening an electric battery factory or in wisconsin making the wind turbines, and when parents know their kids gets a job in one of the industry, they know that's lasting into the future, they are good-paying jobs. insulin is $35. starting in january, nobody is going to pay more than $3,000 out of their pocket for prescription drugs. a year later it will go down to $2,000. that's a huge cost reduction, as

is the cost of buying new appliances and getting heat conductors, and we did raise taxes on the wealthy corporations that didn't pay and put half of that money into inflation reduction. republicans talk about the reduction but increase it by cutting taxes on the wealthy, and it's a huge bill. is it on the lips of everybody? no, but what is happening in wisconsin is happening every week in so many states, and ribbons are being cut as bridges are being built, and we are negotiating with the drug companies and it's going to take persistence. we got to keep at this week after week after week, every week, a new thing happens, and it will, about a year from now,

people will know the economy is strong. people still remember six or eight months ago where things were at, and next summer they won't, they will see the things you have and the economy will be a strong suit for us. let's finally compare it to the republicans. we're investing -- there are's investigating. all they seem to do is want to investigate this, that and the other thing. that doesn't help the american people. the contrast of yesterday, a former president being indicted for trying to deny an election, and this president today talking about investing in america, that's going to sink in. it's our job to make sure it sinks in. >> i mean, their investigations are so stupid. i am embarrassed for them. they are talking to arms dealers and people that illegally -- that illegally smuggle oil to the communist chinese party. they talk about tapes in the phish and grassley gives up the

game and they say, we don't care if he's guilty or not. i have a lot of people that want to ask you questions, and -- >> just -- these investigations -- these investigations don't matter to the american people, and it's the right wing talking to each other. let them keep talking to each other. we're talking to the american people. >> they are talking to themselves. >> i want to talk about an issue personal to me, and as you know we worked together in congress and i represented a district that had five military bases. my job was to go to washington to do several things, but one was obsess over military readiness. every time i would go to the pentagon, or every time a general or admiral or colonel would come and talk to me in my office and armed services, they

would say have your fights about social policies outside of this hearing room, and let's focus on the readiness of the united states armed forces. we have one senator, a republican from alabama, who right now is responsible for the marine corps not having a commandant for the first time in years, and the army not having somebody that has been supported by the senate leading them, and all the military is saying this is a real readiness problem, and even the people in alabama are against what tuberville is doing. how do we break the impasse? why won't republicans stand up and speak out for the good of the men and women that risk their lives in uniform? >> you know, republicans always prided themselves on being the national security party, and yet that's right, they are letting

tuberville do this. if their whole caucus, the rest of them said stop, we demand you stop, he would have to stop. mcconnell and thune have said what he's doing is wrong, but that's it. let me tell you, the power of a leader is enormous. if one of my democrats were doing this, i would call them into the office and say you are going to pay a price, and there are a lot of ways a leader can make them pay the price. mcconnell, it's on his shoulders. he ought to do it. pressure is mounting, as you said, even in alabama tuberville is learning that the people in his own military bases are being upset about what he's doing, and i think he's going to have to back off, but only because republicans will put pressure on him. to do it, to prevent a woman who is -- who has been enlisting in our armed services and serving

in a state where she can't get her own health care or a right to an abortion, and saying she can't do this and hold it all up for national security, and the republican party knows it's a loser for them, and it's a loser substantively and politically. they are going to have to stand up to these far right people, or the country is going to be much, much worst off. i don't think it's a winning strategy for them. >> good morning, mr. majority leader. jonathan lemire. i want to ask you about a looming fight on capitol hill about ukrainian funding. what do you see on the horizon? do you think the minority mcconnell will keep the gop in line? but what do you see in the house?

what is speaker mccarthy going to be able to do considering the howls of protest on the far right, and some want to go cut off support altogether? >> in the senate, we do have good unity on the issue. i have been a strong supporter of ukraine as has my caucus been with few exceptions, and mcconnell has been a supporter with a few voices against him in his caucus, a little more than on our side. i hope this will happen, and i think it should happen, the house will look at the senate and see it's bipartisan, and it's not just the democrats and joe biden, and it's saying we need this supplemental, and we need it for ukraine, and we need it for some other things as well. i am hopeful the house will do that. now, if mccarthy follows the hard right and tries to do a

partisan bill, he will lose. the hard right wants to shutdown the government, and mccarthy knows that would be a disaster not only for the country but for his party. it's clear who wants to shutdown the government and who is doing it. the people never like when somebody is going to shutdown the government unless they get their way. we met a few weeks back and agreed on a cr, a congressional resolution where you extend the existing funding for a few months so we could work it out, and i thought that was a good sign. i will say this. the republican colleagues need to work it out, and 12 appropriation bills in the senate passed overwhelmingly or by an overwhelming margin, and

we are working together to avoid that shutdown in the senate, democrats and republicans, but the house, mccarthy will have the dilemma of the hard right people who are destructive. >> it's jennifer palmieri. it's august, and you are up in new york and i know you are still doing your sunday morning press consequences. i am wondering what -- people hear you on the reduction act, and what are people concerned about in new york when you talk to them? what is on their minds? are they aware of what is happening in congress and are they worried about shutdowns? what are you hearing from people? >> i think in new york, and i travel a lot upstate, and i still visit every one of the 62 counties every year and i am up about 50 this year, and i love going up to rural america. people are concerned about making their lives better,

keeping costs down, growinghe middle grass, new jobs, and in new york we have a great example. we have a great future, some of the chip fabs are opening up in new york and one company said they are pulling jobs away from china and moving into them into the hudson valley. they care about all those things. farmers are concerned about disaster relief, frankly, because we had a freeze in may that did harm to apples and cherries and vegetables and fruits. i don't hear about the stuff you read in the newspapers in washington. i do meet a good number of americans who are dissolutioned with donald trump. not everybody, but a good chunk of them. >> what about in terms of what

you are facing in the fall, you have had a good success with bipartisan wins, right? that actually has happened and the government has been able to stay open, even in divided government congress still seems to be able -- has been able to work thus far. do you think we are headed into that kind of government shutdown showdown even though we know it's a hot stove and republicans shouldn't touch it, particularly on the house side they can't seem to resist? >> leader mccarthy will have a choice. he will have to side with the hard right people, which will lead to a shutdown. they even broke the agreement that all four leaders had on what the budget taps and budget numbers would be, or he's going to have to emulate the senate and work in a bipartisan way. hakeem jeffies is able to work with him and pass something that can pass both sides and let the extreme right vote no. they will threaten him, as they

have in the past, but at least we did not default. that was tricky and difficult. i hope he will be able to do the same and tell the hard right they cannot lead the country over a cliff into disaster, because that's what they want to do. that's what they want to do. they have no understanding of anybody that doesn't have a different view of them. it's their way or the highway. but their highway leads right over the cliff. >> senate majority leader, chuck schumer. thank you for coming on the show this morning. always good to see you. >> joe, i want to make one point to joe. you look at the baseball standings in the east, and they look upsidedown. baltimore is in first and the yankees are in last, and even your lowly red sox are ahead of us. >> i am telling you, it has been such a bizarre season, and it's upsidedown but don't worry, the yankees come back and break our hearts and you guys will come

back and win the world series, and -- >> i don't know. >> probably will get the parade. it's upsidedown and it's crazy. >> all right. thank you, senator. good to see you. still ahead on "morning joe," we will dig dipper into the new effort by donald trump's former chief of staff, mark meadows, to move the georgia case to federal court. you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget-you-get migraine feeling. don't take if allergic to qulipta®.

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up to $100 off nfl sunday ticket from youtube. sign up for xfinity rewards now. mark meadows is seeking to move his fulton county election case to federal court. donald trump's former chief of

staff was indicted with him and 17 others on charges of attempting to overturn trump's election loss in georgia. meadows faces two counts in the 41-count indictment, including georgia's rico violations and solicitation of a violation of oath by a public officer. in a 14-page filing, meadow's attorneys defended his action saying he was merely acting in his official capacity as trump's chief of staff. his attorneys detailed arrangements for organizing oval office meetings and contacting state officials on trump's behalf and setting up a phone call were among his duties. the move to federal court could mean no cameras would be allowed in the courtroom, and however, gerri willis' office would still

likely prosecute the case, and trump would still mount a similar effort. >> last night i am trying to listen to music and unwind. >> uh-huh. >> you can't watch the news 24 hours a day. >> i like to watch the news. >> yeah, and mika starts to pepper me with questions about removing this from state court to federal court. i said, i'm listening to music right now, and let's enjoy the moment. >> who makes that decision? >> she said, well, if you won't answer me, i will just ask you. >> i did. >> so who makes this decision

and -- >> yeah, we all have crosses to bear. there's a provision in the united states codes that permits a federal office, and mark meadows was a federal officer when he served as mr. trump's chief of staff to seek to remove a federal case to federal court, and there's a catch, as there often is. the catch here is for the case to be removed, and for a federal officer to be under indicted in state court, you had to have been acting in the scope of your official duties. i think you can make an argument for a fair election is in the scope of your official duty, and i don't think you can make the argument that trying to overturn

a fair and free election is in the scope of your duties. that's the gauntlet mr. meadows will need to run, and if anybody wants to make another motion, i expect trump to do the same thing, but they will have to convince a federal judge, seeking to thwart the transition of peaceful power was within the scope of their official duties. there's a real motion, there's a real code, there's a real provision that under the right circumstances allows for this, but i think they have a very tough road to travel to make that argument stick here. >> so procedurally, chuck, it would go to a federal district judge in georgia and then be appealed to the 11th circuit and then appealed to the supreme court. >> generally the supreme court isn't required to take any

appeal except for under enumerated circumstances. i expect they will say no because you were not acting in the scope of your official duties. you see this from time to time, there might be a agent shooting, and the agent was acting within the scope of her official duties and she was doing her job and applying the deadly force policy of her federal agency but some local attorney wants to try that case, and she could petition that case to be moved to federal court. but where you are committing an underlying crime, very hard to argue that you are acting within the scope of your official duty.

>> right. and we have seen this time and again when donald trump has tried to get the supreme court to weigh in on his behalf on his issues, and time and time again -- first of all, with the election, the -- his phoney election fraud claims, they threw every one of those out. but also when he was claiming presidential privilege, and pence was claiming presidential privilege, the supreme court would have none of that. it seems to me if donald trump is still looking for the roberts court to help him out, he's barking up the wrong tree because they are conservative with a small "c" in this case, and they will not get involved unless they have to. so what does this look like? what does this look like in georgia, especially? >> i think you are right in this regard, joe. i mean, as a strategy it makes

sense and there's an underlying strategy as well, how do we string this out, and how do we delay, delay, delay until we get to the election and past the election, and let's get to the ballot box and see if we win, and maybe we can gum up matters until then. i don't expect him to win in extreme court. will donald trump participate in the gop debate next week? it's more likely the former president will hit the stage. we will dig into that, next on "morning joe."

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two of trump's challengers say the 2024 republican primary were asked about the latest indictment for the former president trump. >> they are now trying to shoehorn this contest into a rico statute, which was really designed to go after organized crime, not necessarily to go after political activity. i think it's an example of this criminalization of politics. i don't think that this is something that is good for the country. >> we all heard that phone call

that the former president trump, then president at the time, and he said find me the votes i would need. doesn't that feel anti-american? >> well, i will continue to say it as i see it, and we are seeing the legal system being weaponized, and we need a better system than that, and we -- >> but that phone call, you heard it, right? >> yes. but i draw different conclusions. next question -- >> you would do that? >> he doesn't want to answer the question. he doesn't want to answer the question. >> i just draw different conclusions. >> if you want to sit back and calling the republican secretary of state who says he was trying to get me to throw out votes,

that's when the republican secretary of state said and a republican governor said, and do you sit there and claim, oh, they are politicizing the process and weaponizing the process? you are not fit to be president of the united states. it's really disgusting. i like tim scott, and i think he's a really talented, talented guy. when people ask me, who do you think could win the nomination if trump and desantis falls? i go, tim scott. tim scott. but not if he does that. it's so maddening, they keep talking about the weaponization, the weaponization of the justice department. donald trump steals nuclear secrets and lies to the doj

about turning everything back, and he lies about everything, and he sends his workers to try and destroy video surveillance tape that shows him moving those documents around with top secret classified military secrets about nuclear weapons, attacks against iran, america's weaknesses, and they go, oh, he's just trying to politicize the process. he tries to steal votes from millions of americans by setting up fraudulent electors to replace the real electors that did vote. they keep pointing at merrick garland, and are you kidding me, merrick garland? they will talk about -- when are

you going to get serious about running for president of the united states? and telling the truth about the guy you are running against? >> it's, like, it feels like what you see happening in iowa, it feels like a fantasy football league, right? like, you can make your arguments that you are making, and you might even win iowa, and somebody might beat donald trump in iowa, but it has no bearing on what is actually happening, like the stakes of how democracy is under threat, and little bearing of who will become president of the united states. you know, it struck me when desantis said rico was created to go after organized crime. yes, yes it was, and that's why it is being used here because organized crime is what trump

and his allies committed. you see the destain they have for what donald trump did, and giuliani said rico is not supposed to be used for political issues, and the callousness for which republicans have treated this issue, i think it is alongside the history that is being made with the indictments. we will look back on those words and words like what tim scott, who otherwise, seems to be a very talented and honorable politician will be marked in history as -- if we saw this happening in another country, and this is burl stonish.

and they are backing up this person that violated the presep of the republic, and what would -- >> they know he did it. they all say it off camera. they all say it off camera. they know he stole nuclear secrets and will tell you that off camera. they know he tried to steal an election, and guys like tim scott had to run for their lives and hunker down because the mob that donald trump sent their way could have killed them. but for the work of capitol cops, there are senators that would have been killed by the riots. they know the truth and yet they lie about somebody stealing nuclear secrets and trying to steal american democracy from

them, from them, from us. it's just, again, there's no looking past that. >> no, their lies and the bad faith attacks, and the what aboutisms saying the two tiered system of justice, and the hunter biden matter that they latch on to each and every day as a talking point instead of talking about donald trump. the man they are trying to beat, and not only because they are criticizing their behavior, because they don't want to alienate too many of his voters, but the electability matter, to say he cannot win, and there are those close to president biden, the president probably can't win georgia this time around and it's not there yet for democrats, but if it's trump, they like their chances. state officials across the

country are voicing concern about efforts to deceive the public with false claims about voting security. we will talk to colorado's secretary of state, jenna griswold, about that and much more ahead on "morning joe." my active psoriatic arthritis can make me feel like i'm losing my rhythm. with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, i'm getting into my groove. ♪(uplifting music)♪ along with significantly clearer skin... skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. skyrizi attaches to and reduces a source of excess inflammation that can lead to skin and joint symptoms. with skyrizi 90% clearer skin and less joint pain are possible. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur.

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when hillary brings up a point like that and she talks about words that i said 11 years ago, i think it's disgraceful and i think she should be ashamed of herself, if you want to know the truth. >> oh, my god, that was donald trump deflecting from his own troubles at a presidential debate in october of 2016, just days after the hollywood tape

was heard. >> our next guest, the piece by senior columnist, matt louis, and it reads in part this, for a normal politician one indictment would be enough cause to go into hiding and avoid interrogation by a debate moderator and attacks by ambitious fellow polls, and just as there's precedent for donald trump to skip a debate, case in point, trump turned out to be incredibly lucky that a presidential debate occurred on october 9th, 2016, just two days after the "access hollywood"

story broke. now it's likely that whoever leaked the "access hollywood" video thought they were delivering the cue detkpwraut by their timing but it had the opposite affect, and the debate helped draw attention away from the scandal that previously dominated the news cycles, and instead of being ashamed trump went on the offense against hillary clinton. >> and "the daily beast," matt lewis, joins us now. >> here we are in this moment, 2023. do you think if he gets on that stage will it be the same donald trump? i understand what you say he could do, and with chris christie focusing on him opposed to rubio and others, could he

bring the same show at this stage in his political career, as it were? >> i do think chris christie is the x factor, and i am curious to see if donald trump is afraid of chris christie, so afraid of chris christie that he doesn't show i'm not going to sign the pledge, the rnc's pledge or whether donald trump is just an egomaniac who craves attention, who loves attention and who now feels that he has a bigger chip on his shoulder, has to unburden himself and play the victim again that he shows up in walk. and i think i'm leaning towards the latter. he may not fully appreciate the danger that chris christie specifically poses and, look, i think there's another logical argument for why trump might want to show up. we've already seen that the republicans are, you know, loathed to criticize him and, in fact, they're supporting him and

these indictments, but there is an opening, i think for someone like a ron desantis, for example, to say, look, donald trump is the victim of democrats who are trying to criminalize the political process, but let's be honest, he has these four indictments. there's no way he's going to be able to run an effective campaign next year in the general election having to appear in court and, you know, in florida and new york and atlanta and all that. if donald trump shows up -- and i think the biggest flex would be to turn himself in, you know, to surrender himself and then go to the debate. i think donald trump shows, look, i can walk and chew gum at the same time, and so i think if you add that in and just his compulsive need for attention, i think he shows. >> so, jonathan lemire, i'm going to take the other side of it. i do think he's scared of chris christie. he saw what chris christie did

to marco rubio when chris christie went into a debate with one thing in mind. he knows chris christie put jared kushner's father in jail for a very long time. he knows he's a prosecutor who's ruthless and knows how to push his case. and he also knows that his secret sauce in 2016 was being the disrupter, right, shaking hillary clinton up on the debate stage, shaking everybody else up on the debate stage. that gig is like eight years old, right? that's elvis in '77 now. and i think chris christie's got his number, and he knows, hey, donald trump -- his gut instinct, his political gut instinct is second to none.

like he sees it coming, and so i just don't -- i think he's scared to death of chris christie and will not have the guts to go or the nerve to go on stage with chris christie anywhere. >> a person in trump's orbit a few days ago told me when the decision is not yet made if he will go to the debate, he said, well, an argument to not go would be chris christie trains his sights on ron desantis and maybe finishes him off. they're well aware of christie's strength on the debate stage and we should also note that chris christie has not yet qualified for the second republican debate so if trump wants to sit this one out, maybe he can show up on a debate stage a few weeks later and not have to deal with christie. matt lewis, you know, i was there in 2016 for that debate. and when donald trump showed up 48 hours after the "access hollywood" tape with a number of women who accused the clintons of inappropriate conduct in the years past, it was stunning. he changed the news cycle. you documented it. he was able to get -- steady himself but had help back then and the conservative media clearly at that point was with

him and has been with him ever since. i'm curious as to show you view them now. so many of the outlets, fox news included, seem to be flirting, had flirted with other candidates. you know, do you sense now that they're fully back on trump? are they keeping their options open? that conservative ecosystem has been so vital to his rise. >> yeah, i think they are largely with him. there's a temptation, a danger, i think, that they could leave him and maybe that is another reason that trump would want to show up at the debate. look, if he's logical, he might not show up at the debate, right? trump could say, look, i'm up by 40 points, let's let everyone attack ron desantis instead of me. i just think he's guided more by things like fear and the craving of attention. and the more he feels that his back is against the wall -- and it doesn't have to be politically, it could be legally, i think that will drive him to turn up and -- i think he

has fun at these debates. and maybe he should be afraid of chris christie, but i'm not sure he actually has that in him. coming up, much more in-depth legal analysis on donald trump's fourth indictment and the new push by some co-defendants to move the fulton county case to federal court. "morning joe" is coming right back. back

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completed. we'll be filing over the next two, three weeks. >> we're signing a health care plan within two weeks. >> the minds are starting to open up. we're having a big opening in two weeks. >> we'll have some of the big drawing companies in two weeks. >> we'll be announcing something, i would say, over the next two or three weeks. >> two weeks i think will be historic numbers, also. >> we'll be announcing something over the next two weeks. >> a brief history of donald trump promising something in two weeks. >> does he figure that his supporters are so dumb they'll forget in two weeks? >> yes, i think he does. >> does he really think so little of his supporters? >> we show you that because -- >> that's not nice. >> it's not nice. now he's promising to reveal next week a "large complex detailed but irrefutable report on the presidential election fraud." welcome to the fourth hour of

"morning joe." >> of course, the governor of georgia, he had something to say about that. >> he sure did. he responded right away, actually. >> very tough. i know. >> it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast. 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. jonathan lemire and jen palmieri are still with us. >> jonathan, have you been looking at the national league standings, by the way? >> i have. the los angeles dodgers are very, very, very good. >> wow. yeah. >> look at that. >> they are just -- they've won 9 of the last 10 games. they have just been on an absolute tear. it's hard to say that they're not the favorite to go to the world series. they have to go through atlanta to do that, but, man, what -- what a run the dodgers are having. >> yeah. that was a really tight race until about a month ago. the dodgers and diamondbacks were going back and forth at the

top. arizona faded in the second half. the dodgers caught fire. dodgers/braves look like the class of the national league. the dodgers are being fueled by so many ex-red sox, mookie betts, j.d. martinez. dodgers are a terrific team. they come to fenway in about a week's time. mookie betts' return to boston. that will be fun. >> that will be a lot of fun. you're right, j.d.'s also out there doing pretty well. >> there he is. >> it's just -- >> dancing. >> why don't you dance? you sure didn't dance a lot last year in boston. you went lunging for the curveball. >> maybe the team wasn't supportive. >> maybe so. our top story this hour, there's new details from the charges donald trump faces in georgia and the potential terms

of his surrender. the former president has until next friday at noon to turn himself in. this morning, the secret service tells nbc news that's expected to happen sometime next week, though plans have not been finalized. nbc news correspondent blayne alexander has the latest. >> reporter: with the countdown officially on for former president trump and his 18 co-defendants to surrender in georgia, this morning we're getting new details of how that process could play out. the fulton county sheriff's office says based on guidance from the d.a.'s office and presiding judge it's expected all 19 defendants will be booked at the fulton county jail. a process that would typically include fingerprints and mugshots, though it's not clear whether that would happen here. >> the indictment brings felony charges against donald john trump. >> reporter: the former president is facing 13 charges in a sprawling indictment

alleging he and his allies unlawfully conspired in an illegal enterprise to overturn biden's win in georgia. in a social media post, mr. trump said he would hold a news conferencean anner an irreputable report to show georgia's election fraud. in a post of his own, kemp writes the 2020 election in georgia was not stolen. our elections in georgia are secure, accessible and fair. among the others named in the 41-count indictment, trump's former chief of staff, mark mead meadows who, on tuesday, pushed to have his case moved to federal court.

also indicted is rudy giuliani. >> this is a ridiculous application of the racketeering statute. probably no one knows it better than i did. >> blayne alexander with that report. joining us now is lisa rubin. nbc news analyst, andrew weissmann, and professor of history at tulane university, the great walter isaacson. >> try to put this into perspective for us, walter, historically. four indictments over the past couple of months. now the president has so many indictments, the former president so many indictments that just one or two out of all of the 90 or so basically would amount to a life sentence. what are we going to go through as a country over the next year or two because of donald trump? >> you know, this is totally unprecedented.

there's never been an indicted former president, and i think what's more important historically, this is really a test about democracy. if you look at what's underlying the narrative, there's a large group of people, 20%, 30%, including trump, who believe that democracy is not something that we should put on a pedestal and always try to preserve. that it's more important to figure out how to retain power or do whatever you need to do. i think there's been a reduction in the sense that democracy is the core of what america's all about. one interesting thing to me on this georgia case is that georgia and the south to some extent may lead us out of this a bit. i'm not just talking about fani willis, i think governor kemp, many other republicans in georgia are the ones who say,

no, we support democracy. >> amazing. >> is this something that is just grown, this yearning for a strong man,man, it seems to me through the years we've had political philosophers say about a third of the public -- ten years or so, pre-trump -- about a third of the public would be inclined to a strong type leader, not as concerned about democratic principles and norms. i'm wondering is it trump that has fed something that was already pre-existing in a third of americans or is he the cause itself? >> one of the things that is interesting is that this is somewhat of a global phenomenon, the yearning for the strong man, the turning away of the

messiness of democracy as not being the best possible system. you can see it even happening in israel. you see it happening in hungary and various other places. i'm hoping that this combination of populism and yearning for the strong man, which we've seen grow over the past decade, trump tapped into it, most of the time these fevers break. sometimes they don't. we have a couple examples in the 20th century where the fever didn't break and it led to wars. but we -- i mean republicans, democrats, americans who truly believe in america have to keep pushing the narrative of why democracy is sacred. >> andrew weissmann, what's your takeaway two days in to this georgia indictment? >> well, i think that the key really is going to be focusing on the d.c. case, on august 28th

the judge is going to be deciding on the trial date. that's really the whole ball of wax on whether there will be a january 6th trial before either the republican convention or the general election. i think there's probably no way that the georgia case is going to happen i think before the general election even though fani willis has says she wants a speedy trial. it's hard when you have 19 defendants in a sprawling case that that will really go to trial given her prior cases that were rico cases. they usually take some time. i'm focusing on what will happen on the 28th when the judge said she intends to announce the trial date in that case. >> let me ask you, andrew, about timing of that case. let's say she set the trial for

march or april. would that be an expedited trial schedule? is the government moving the trump case faster than they would typically do against normal white collar criminals? >> that would be relatively fast for d.c. in a case like this. you know, i did the manifort case in d.c., that took 11 months, and that was considered relatively fast. there's two things to remember here, one, given the time clock this case, if it's not brought before the general election may never happen, that's something that is -- it's in the country's interest, and i think it's appropriate for the judge to consider. the conservative jurists, judge ludig has said and has been speaking out about he thinks it's entirely within the due

process clause and the due process rights of donald trump to bring that case to trial prior to the general election. and the judge has said she will give a speedier trial if she sees that donald trump is continuing to make public inflammatory statements that could infect the jurors and intimidate witnesses. she said that's a factor she will consider. clearly, since the time of that arraignment, that is what he's continued to do. i think he's handed her what she needs to have a speedy trial. >> so, liz rubin, i've so many questions. in terms of what andrew was talking about, his public statements, isn't he tampering with the jury pool by making public statements about these cases? isn't that trying to influence this? my second question would be in the fulton county indictment,

these co-defendants, some 18 of them, do they still have time to flip and help the case against trump? >> let's start there, mika. i think the 19 defendants here including former president trump, these other 18, there's plenty of opportunities for them to go in. as our colleague noted yesterday, fani willis' perhaps prior rico case before this was a cheating ring of teachers in public schools, that case went from 35 defendants when it was charged to 12 defendants when it was tried. i think it's her expectation and those of us on the analysis side here that we won't see all 19 defendants go to trial. with respect to the jury pool tampering, donald trump has been careful to sum degree since last friday's hearing, his public statements about folks involved in the case have been mostly

focused on president biden, the judge and jeff duncan, the former lieutenant governor of georgia. none of those people are necessarily witnesses or participants in the trial before the judge. what he's trying to do is bait here with respect to his own comments about her and her perceived biases, even reposting a tweet that accused her of tampering with the election herself through her comments last friday. i was in that courtroom, that is the antithesis of what she said, and making clear that the election would not bear on her judgment in either direction. >> andrew, obviously this case in jury is so sprawling. you have the criminal conspiracy, extraordinary language about someone who was once president of the united states and seeking that job yet again.

before it's so complicated, it may take a long time to put together and move forward. as much as we think the case here in washington is built for speed, to use a phrase, you think that will go first, but this georgia case is the one that donald trump has no escape hatch if he wins against. a state case. he can't pardon himself. even the governor can't unilaterally pardon him. so this may pose the greatest threat to him, even more than federal ones. what's your sense as to when this one will occur and isn't it likely after the election? >> one thing to note, jonathan, though it's true that the former president, if he is re-elected, doesn't have a pardon power, an open issue is whether the supreme court would pause a state case while he's serving his term of office for four years. you can be as sure as we are

sitting here talking about this, that donald trump will make that argument. his play is to put this case off until after the general election and to make that legal argument. to go to the question that mika posed to lisa, that is not true with respect to the other 18 people. they could easily be left holding the bag. whether this case is scheduled before or after trial, those people cannot be federally pardoned, whether the case is moved to federal court or not, there is no federal pardon for these state charges. regardless of where it is tried. whether mark meadows for instance is successfully able to move it to federal court that does not mean that federal pardon power applies to it. those 18 people have that pressure right now of having to face these charges and they may

have to face these charges without donald trump being at the center of the trial. so the pressure on them to cooperate, i think, is immense, particularly for people like jeff clark and rudy giuliani where the indictment, if the allegations are proved, is what i would call a rock crusher. it's a very, very serious charge and it seems like there's very strong evidence against both of them. >> so, for indictments, walter, coming to you on this one, still unshakable faith in donald trump from so many republicans. you talked before about how this is a global phenomenon with people diverting to a strong man over support for democracy. i know there's -- one thing i think about all the time is people do not have faith in institutions anymore. yet they put a lot of faith in

this one man, telling them a story about america, about themselves, that they seem to value. can you -- what do you think that is? what do you think trump supporters see in him that they don't find in institutions and that they don't see in democracy that is so unshakable? >> a lot of institutions have failed over the past 20 years especially in making sure that the average working class person got a fair deal and a fair shake and a chance at a good job and good wages. there's a lot of resentment, a lot of it understandable in this country. when you have deep resentment, especially resentment against the elite, especially resentment against people who created an my that doesn't seem fair, those resentments tend to boil up and look for a strong man leader who taps into resentments. that's what donald trump does. what is still amazing to me,

though, is that no matter what you feel about the resentment, you would say, hey, it's time to move on from this guy. this guy is poison. he is poison to our republican party. it's going to -- we have to get him out of the center of the limelight and all these indictments keep putting him back in the limelight before common sense comes back and says, fine, but now we have to move on. >> so, let me ask you, walter, what is it, though, about trump that you know very well about populists that are able to use the resentments of the disenfranchised, from huey long from your homestate through george wallace to donald trump. what -- i guess i should ask,

what are they preying upon? most of us know what they prey upon, but what is the best antidote against that in the future? >> we've had waves of this in american history. i think one of trump's heros is andrew jackson who was the first great populist to play on resentments. resentments about the bank of america -- i mean america's national bank, those types of things. yes, it's been on the left and the right. there was a progressive populism and then there was sort of an every man is a king populism that you referred to with huey long in louisiana. what is the best alternative to that is politicians that can create a narrative and say i get it. i hear you. that don't look down. that are not looking down on people, but say i get the narrative here. here's the path of the future.

here's the way that everybody is going to be included in a more prosperous america. i don't think republicans have done a counter-narrative to trump very well. i think the democrats have to some extent but it's a muddy message on the democratic side. under georgia law, the identities of the 23 grand jurors who reviewed the evidence and testimony in the case against trump are not secret. the "washington post" reports, in fact, the names of the fulton county jurors are listed on page nine of the 98-page indictment released late monday. the law which is aimed at bringing transparency to criminal proceedings, does not give judges options to protect the privacy of jurors, even in a high profile case like trump's indictment that could expose them to intense scrutiny or threats. the paper continues, names of

jurors popped up in pro-trump extremist forums as supporters weighed the benefits of digging into jurors lives against the risks that it would backfire. lisa, i go back to his public statements, his continued public statements, if he calls it a witch hunt or whatever, he continues to say the election was not stolen by him or he wasn't trying to steal the election. the isn't that in a secondary way threatening the lives of anyone trying to hold him to accountability? >> you're right. every time he contests the legitimacy of these prosecutions, he is indirectly urging people to take action against those who have been involved from large to small, whether it's jack smith or any one of these 23 individual grand jurors listed on page nine of the georgia indictment. i think in order to tamp down on

his speech rights, the judges will require something more direct, less ambiguous than if they're coming for me they're coming for you. or this is a witch hunt, this is corrupt. to the extent that he crosses that line, i have no doubt that tanya chutkan or scott mcafee in fulton county who has been assigned this case will take whatever measures necessary to protect the integrity of the processes before them. i trust that the rule of law will prevail. >> you bring up a good point, mika. i agree with lisa that the rule of law will prevail, at the same time there are people that donald trump and donald trump supporters -- >> anyone see january 6th happen? >> put their lives in danger, whether it's january 6th. poll workers that rudy giuliani lied about talking about the threats, people coming to their

house -- >> people indicted. >> and you look at what happened, the trump people were trying from what was reported -- that they were trying to get the names of the fbi ajens that searched mar-a-lago and i supposed to have threats and hateful attacks levelled against them. this is a real concern, i must say. i'm surprised to learn this, that you go on a grand jury, you do your duty to the country and you put yourself in position now where you're a target of threats. you know it's going to happen. if the past is prologue, yeah, it's a real concern. >> msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin, thank you very much. andrew weissmann and walter isaacson, thank you. coming up on "morning joe," the latest on recovery efforts in hawaii where wildfires claimed more than 100 lives as

rescue teams continue to search the burn zone. plus north korea has confirmed it has custody of the american soldier who crossed into its territory last month. why the country claims he crossed the border next on "morning joe." ean energy plan, we're creating jobs right here, right now. these are good quality high paying jobs with medical benefits, 401ks. this is a job i can support my family on. when people talk about clean energy and the fastest growing industry, we feel it here. it feels good to be a part of that. my cpa told me i wouldn't qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. their team of independent tax attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligible. [whip sound] take the first step to see if your small business qualifies.

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now to the latest on the devastating wildfires in hawaii. this morning the white house announced that president biden and the first lady will travel to the state on monday to meet with first responders, survivors, as well as federal, state and local officials. the death toll from the deadliest wildfire in modern u.s. history now exceeds 100 people. the red cross says more than 4,000 people in maui are packed into nearly a dozen shelters in the wake of the destruction around 2,000 homes and businesses still do not have

electricity. we'll be following that and also north korea is claiming that u.s. army soldier travis king who crossed into its territory last month did so because he was seeking refuge from mistreatment and discrimination in the u.s. >> so you go to north korea. wow. >> janis mackey frayer has the latest. >> reporter: this morning for the first time north korea confirming custody of travis king, the american soldier who did a cross-border dash last month in north korean territory. now claiming private second class king, who is 23, wants to seek refuge there or in a third country. a statement saying he confessed to illegal entering to escape, quote, maltreatment and racial discrimination within the u.s. army, adding he was disillusioned with the unequal american society.

>> even if the north koreans came out and said he wants to defect, we wouldn't be able to trust those words, because they wouldn't be coming from private king himself. >> reporter: king bolted during a private group tour of the demilitarized zone, dmz, separating north and south. he had spent time at a south korean prison on assault charges and was due to return to the u.s. the defense defendant telling nbc news it couldn't verify north korea's commenting adding, quote, we remain focused on his safe return. his family back in wisconsin is concerned telling nbc news last month -- >> i hope he comes back soon. he can start back over. >> reporter: president biden set to host leaders from south korea and japan at camp david. the growing threat of kim jong-un's weapon program will be

top of the agenda. >> i expect he will be put on trial in north korea and that he will be given a sentence. >> reporter: north korea saying nothing about king's well-being or what he faces. still ahead, former vice president mike pence just gave his first comments about the georgia indictment of former president donald trump. we'll show you what the 2024 presidential candidate had to say. plus the georgia case has ties to another state that's halfway across the country. we'll explain that next on "morning joe." as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution

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despite what the former president and his allies have said now for more than 2 1/2 years and continue to insist at this very hour, the georgia election was not stolen and i

had no right to overturn the election on january 6th. it's a hard truth. my friend brian kemp said it well yesterday. he said for nearly three years anyone with evidence of fraud has failed to come forward to provide evidence in a court of law regarding the georgia elections. >> that was former vice president and current republican presidential candidate mike pence addressing for the first time the georgia indictment of donald trump. he made those comments moments ago during his address to the national conference of state legislatures in indianapolis. >> jonathan lemire, some might say that's an easy thing for him to say. no. if you're running for president in a republican field where 91% of the people whose votes you're

trying to get don't think donald trump did anything wrong, then being that direct is actually quite something, just like brian kemp yesterday tweeting something that he didn't have to tweet. i mean, there are a thousand different ways that they both could have said it without being that direct. i think we should tip our hat when people actually say the very things we're saying they should say all along. >> what kemp and pence did should be the norm. we shouldn't have to single it out and applaud it but we must because so few of their fellow republicans do that. so few republican rank and file voters believe joe biden was duly elected president. yes, pence in particular, this is someone who stood up to trump in the 11th hour of his administration, on january 5th and said no, i won't on january 6th do what you want me to do

after that historic consultation with dan quayle and stayed consistent on that ever since. i know he's frustrated some who said he should have been more forceful. pence has found his view on this over the last few months and has been clear and plain that he did the right thing and donald trump did not have the right to do what he tried. >> among the 18 trump aides indicted in georgia this week are two attorneys with ties to the state of colorado. john eastman and jenna ellis. eastman is currently representing the state's gop in an election lawsuit. ellis is an advisory fellow in constitutional law and policy at the conservative centennial institute at colorado christian university. according to axios, the criminal conspiracy outlined in the 98-page indictment is drawing parallels to election tampering

in colorado and showcases the state's ties to the trump campaign's push to overturn the presidential vote. joining us now, colorado secretary of state, jena griswold, also chair of the democratic association of secretaries of state. thank you very much for being on this morning. i guess first i'd love your take on this indictment and the parallels that we were drawing, but the indictment overall. >> good morning. thank you for having me on. i want to say hi from colorado and boulder. my overall take is that it's a step in the right direction for justice, for the american voters. make no mistake, donald trump's attack trying to steal the presidency was a direct attack on this nation and every voter in the country. it's crucial he's held accountable because we're still

dealing with the aftermath of what the attempted 2020 stealing of the presidency has been. >> we're still dealing with, i would say, countless americans who believe the lies that trump has put out there and those named in this indictment and others who are still helping him along the way. we have an electorate, a population that doesn't have the full picture of what's going on. describe the situation in colorado as it pertains to this indictment. >> you mentioned the election security breach. a big part of the georgia indictment focuses on the actions around coffey county, georgia. colorado had election security breaches five months afterwards when election security clerk tina peters compromised her own voting equipment to try to prove

the big lie. i acted swiftly and addressed the situation and then led the first piece of legislation in the nation addressing insider threats. so, one big takeaway specifically for the upcoming 2024 election is that states have to recognize that these insider breaches that are being brought on by the radicalization of some election workers in this country are a true threat. they should act swiftly, quickly, the clock is running out to make sure their security protocols are ready to go for these types of new evolving threats. >> secretary griswold, it seems that so many republicans unfortunately are acting in a way that undermines and will undermine confidence in their own election process. it seems so short-sighted. i have a friend who runs elections in an area of florida

who wanted me to ask you about gop states that are pulling out of the cross-state data sharing program that only encourages best practices, that only ensures actually that the voting is more secure than ever. >> that's exactly right. e.r.i.c. is a cross-state data sharing to make sure we have the most accurate list possible and to make sure if there is an instance of double voting, which republicans say they care about, that we know and can prosecute and take adequate action. i think the bigger picture is that all the supposed integrity laws that are being passed across the nation are really just political. what we are seeing is republican secretaries of state turn away from actually the best practices

to secure the vote and really embrace the party line. make no mistake, these prosecutions we're seeing, both the federal and georgia prosecution are focused on the events around the stealing -- the potential stealing, the attempted stealing of the presidency. there are continued efforts to attack american democracy. and there are way too many republican s who are still not saying anything or, in fact, spreading the disinformation that is destabilizing american democracy and elections. >> secretary griswold, can you quantify that? i know secretaries of state are on the front lines of protecting democracy and the 2022 election there was a lot of attention paid to arizona, michigan, pennsylvania, ensuring those states stay in democratic governors control, and also secretary of state control in pennsylvania -- excuse me, in michigan and arizona, in

particular. but you're suggesting that there are a lot of secretaries of state out there now that are posing a threat to fair and free elections. can you quantify this or give us a sense of what the scope of that problem is like? >> the good news is we're winning the fight against the destabilized nation of democracy. so leading up to the 2022 election, there were election deniers running in almost every battleground state in the nation as secretary of state. those states stopped them. there's now people in the battleground states who will stand up for the right to vote and for the ideal that every eligible republican, democrat and unaffiliated deserves to have their voice heard. at the same time, there are now six election deniers secretary of state, there are 150 election deniers disgracing this country in congress. six in the u.s. senate and they're walking through state

legislatures across the nation. from my perspective, we're bracing for what is coming. we are preparing for a surge of ai-boosted disinformation, election officials are getting ready for a wave of threats and political violence. to put this in context, why the prosecutions are so important is that we have to see justice served to make a clear statement of what's acceptable in american politics. the ongoing attack on democracy will not stop unless those who have insighted it are held accountable for their unlawful and criminal actions. >> colorado secretary of state jena griswold, thank you very much for coming on this morning and thank you for your service. >> thank you. coming up, a small newspaper publisher at the center of a 1st amendment fight with kansas police scrambled to send its

paper to print this morning, that's because much of what was needed is on hard drives and documents seized in a police raid. we'll bring you the latest on that fight and the concerns about the local chief's motives. "morning joe" will be right back. ght back and a grandmother of two. basically, i thought that my memory wasn't as good as it had been. i needed all the help i could get. i saw the commercials for prevagen. i started taking it. and it helped! i noticed my memory was better. there was definite improvement. i've been taking prevagen for a little over five years. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. permission to dig in? granted. breyers carbsmart is so rich, so creamy, it tastes totally off-limits. but with only 4 grams of net carbs in every delicious serving, you've got the green light. better starts with breyers. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom.

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fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. rsv can be serious. talk to your doctor or pharmacist about arexvy today. rsv? make it arexvy. the publisher of the marion county record vows the next edition of the kansas newspaper will hit newsstands today. it comes despite a police raid that seized the paper's hard drives, computers, and documents just days ago. nbc news correspondent stephanie gosk has the details. >> reporter: this morning the weekly edition of the marion county record is still being published, even after police in this small kansas town raided the paper's offices on friday seizing cell phones, hard drives and documents. it accused reporters of identity

theft and computer crimes while reporting on local restaurant owner kari newell for a story that didn't run. newell told the city council the paper illegally got her driving record which included a dui. the publisher believes the police chief has a personal axe to grind. >> the police chief saw an opportunity let's stick it to this newspaper which has not been entirely supportive of him. >> they were investigating the police chief's time on the force in kansas city including that he was set to be demoted for misconduct before joining the department in marion. meyer says the sources wouldn't go on the record and the story was never published. the police chief did not respond to nbc news's request for comment, but previously defended the raid arguing there were legal grounds. >> it was her life. >> reporter: donna bernheart worked at the record for 30 years, alongside the 98-year-old co-owner of the paper who passed away the day after police raided the offices and her home.

>> did this seem heavy handed? >> yes, extremely heavy handed. they didn't handle it correctly. >> reporter: with media organizations including nbc news calling the raid a violation of the first amendment, the kansas bureau of investigation says it is taking over and will be the, quote, lead law enforcement agency investigating the incidents in marion county. while residents are stunned and saddened to be in the national spotlight. >> it just hurts that marion has to go through this negativity right now. >> what a sad story. >> that is so -- so many questions, jonathan lemire, i know you've been following this a bit, but it does seem like there are a lot of questions surrounding this raid. >> yeah, deeply, deeply worrisome moment here, certainly our condolences of course to that woman's family. a number of professional organizations have registered

complaints and protests about the police department. the publisher has put out a statement saying they're pleased to see that the state investigators are now taking the lead on this case relieving that local jurisdiction for it. of course there are great concerns about first amendment rights and it comes at a moment where small town newspapers are really struggling across the country and some organizations feel like could be pushed around by heavy handed tactics like these. >> yes, and of course that was nbc's stephanie gosk with that report. up next, a look at some of the other stories making front page headlines across the country. "morning joe" will be right back. y. "morning joe" will be right back and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv

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gino giovanni jr. is charged with two counts of entering a restricted building, one count of disorderly conduct inside a capital building, and one count of parading, demonstrating or picketing inside a capitol building. again, more people facing charges for the riot on january 6th. the los angeles times is reporting on a series of smash and grab robberies at a luxury shopping mall in the city. according to the paper, about 30 masked burglars stormed into a nordstrom and looted glass display cases filled with high end purses, clothes, and jewelry. the l.a.p.d. says the thieves got away with over $100,000 in merchandise. >> you just ask how this happens, especially why we see it happening so much on the west coast. and in idaho, the lewiston tribune reports washington democrats are asking the

transportation department for nearly $200 million for a west coast bullet train. the electric powered trains would reach speeds of 250 miles per hour and would take passengers between portland, seattle, and vancouver. they say the average portland to seattle commute would be cut down from three and a half hours to just one. >> if they could actually do it and not have cost overruns and not have it take 20 years to do, it would make a huge difference in productivity. it would make a huge difference regarding, you know, our footprint, our carbon footprint. so let's hope. i've just seen some bullet train proposals in the past just go on and on for decades and the cost overruns are just horrific. they've got -- we have to figure out a way to do this in an effective, a cost effective and time effective way to help commuters, to help the economy,

to help the environment. >> and speaking of time effective, that does it for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. >> is this your first time doing this, first time on the show? mew (janet) so much space!... that open kitchen! (tanya) oooh definitely the one! (ethan) but how can you sell your house when we're stuck on a space station for months???!!! (brian) no guys, opendoor gives you the flexibility to sell and buy on your timeline. (janet) nice! (intercom) flightdeck, see you at the house warming. choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine

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