>> that's a good shorthand. jen psaki and david plouffe, thank you both. that is all in on this wednesday night. now, earlier in the show, we mentioned a big day today. it's been one year since president biden signed the inflation reduction act. it is not the only anniversary that we are marking tonight. presidentat w bidene signed th inflation reduction act. alex wagner also turns 1 today. good evening, alex. >> i don't know. i really appreciate the sentiment. that's saying a lot. that's like the biggest investment in climate change the country's ever made and a cable news program on at 9:00 p.m. from tuesday through friday.ou i will take it. >> let's bewi clear, i don't thk you're more important than the inflation reduction act, but i do think you're better, and i am more excited about your anniversary. >> and i thank you for that.

you haven't known the inflation reduction act for you know what it is 25 yoyears, and you have known me. so i'll take it.l i'm just thrilled to have this hand-off with you every four days a week, chris. it is the thing that brings me joy, my friend. >> happy anniversary. >> thanks, buddy.ha thanks for a great show as always. and thanks to you at home for joining me this hour once again. we now haveur a date. march 4, 2024. that is the day fulton county district attorneyon fani willis proposed her case against trump and his 18 codefendants match that is the date she'd like it to go to trial. that would put this trial in georgia two months after the date special counsel jack smith proposed for the attempts to overturn the 2020 election and three weeks before the hush

money case set to start in new york and two months before the mar-a-lago classified documents cased which is may 20th and it would be just one day before super tuesday. that means just 200 days from tomorrow trump and his codefendants could be in a potentially televised courtroom battling this all out just one day before the biggest day on thege republican primary calend. now, trump and the rest of the defendants in this case will all file whatever motions they want. and the decisions about trial dates will be ultimately made by the judges in the case. trump's 2024 calender is already so jam-packed with legal troubles, where else on that calender is there a window for this georgia case if not in march? we're going to get some expert legal help breaking all that down in just a second. but first i want to talk about the other reason trump's packed 2024 calender is a problem for

him. it is tearingde a hole in his wallet. "the new york times" reports in the first six months of this year trump and his various pacs raised about $67 million, which, yes, is an eye popping sum. but in that same period of time trump ander his pacs spent $90 million, and 30 cents of every dollar they spent was on legal feest and other investigation related bills. $27 million to fight his legal troubles in just the first six months of the year, a period of by the way, when he was only facing two criminal indictments instead of the current four.rr those are big expenses. seemingly unsustainable expenses. in a hearing last friday one of trump's lawyers mentioned they plan to use volunteer lawyers to help handle the case. volunteer lawyers, presumably not the kind of lawyers who are

paid, so definitely cheap. and that could be the reason why they are talking about volunteer lawyers.er but there's also this. trump doesn't have that many paid lawyers representing him. there are only ten lawyers heading up trump's various legal defense teams in the four criminal cases against him. now, i know any amount of lawyers is a lot of lawyers to a normal person, but for a former president facing 91 felony charges, this seems like a relatively small number of people. one lawyer, todd blanch, is representing trump three times over. todd blanch is on three different cases.re and if former president trump is already hemorrhaging cash with this smallmo shall we say elite group of lawyers, then, yeah he might need to bring in some volunteer staff to help manage the defense for 91 felony counts. and then of course there are the legal bills from trump's

codefendants, people like trump's valet, walt nauta and the property manager carlos de oliveira. thank tuesday fani willis' georgia indictment trump now has 18 more codefendants, and that means, 18 more people facing serious jail time and needing to figure outne how to pay their legal bill. and that might be problematic for more than just trump's wallet. today trump attorney and codefendant jenna ellis turned toel a crowd funding christian website to raisedi cash for her legal defense. you canga send jenna ellis mone or you can send jenna ellis digital prayers to help her defend herself in this case in georgia. and there are ais lot of potent tea leaves we could read there. does that mean that trump is not footing jenna ellis' legal bills? what does it mean for the rest

of the s?codefendants in his ca. at the moment trump should be doing all he can to keep all the codefendants and alleged codefendants on his side, how long can trump afford to pay other peoples a lawyers and for that matter his own? joining me now are mary mccorder, former acting assistant security, and andrew wiseman, member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. they're the co-hosts of the msnbc podcast "prosecuting donald trump" where i get all my good ideas for things to talk about on television. andrew, the burn rate in terms of trump's pacs spending money on these legal problems is staggering, and that was all the data we have is from before these latest indictments landed. does this seem problematic to you as it does to the lay person on the outside? >> so i have a couple thoughts. one is just to put it in

perspective there are many, manv people in the federal and state system who can't afford counsel at all. and it is a constitutional requirement when they can show that counsel's paid for, so my heart doesn'tr, really go out t these people in g term of the comparative in terms of the dual system of justice that we have here. but with money, unfortunately, comes power. you see it whether it's in organized crime prosecution i've done in the past where you have so-called house counsel and you've seen it in the corporate settings and some of those people do their job and represent the person as they should independently, but there are subtle and not so subtle pressures, and we've seen it in this very case. cassidy hutchinson gave us explicit testimony about she waa given sort of trump appointed

counsel, and she actually said she asked who's paying for my counsel. and her counsel if this is true completely and ethically says says don't worry your pretty little head about it. which is unreal. she wash entitled to know abou it. that is a way money keeps everybody in line and inside the tent. the first thing i said when i saw there were 18g codefendant here as we saw there are two in the documents case is how do you keepdo these people in line because in the georgia case those are all potential cooperators because there is no federal pardon with respect to those case. those people are really facing realtime, and the proof on some of them looks really strong. so he needs to be able to sort of figure out how is he going t be able to do that, and money and supporting them in terms of their counsel is one way to do that. he's learned his lesson from michael l cohen where when we we prosecuting him in the mueller

investigation the spigot was turned off andn he felt abandoned, and so that's the downdo side. >> yeah, paying for lawyers is one of the main ways it seems that trump exerts influence in terms of loyalty when it comes to potential codefendants singing to the feds or not. >> and saying i have your back. and also it can be a real issue. and some of these people this is having opretained counsel as opposed to appointed counsel it's really expensive. to wake up and say it's a great day i was indicted, but then you have to spend hundreds of thousands if not more for counsel in and case like this, which is a big, sprawling case. so having somebody who's going to bewl a benefactor is importai >> and one would hope that benefactorth actually has the ch in his pockets to do the thing you're hoping. >> let's remember donald trump does have a way of raising money.

i wouldn't be surprised if there is more money -- >> that will come from somewhere. mary, what's going on with volunteer lawyers?ee is that a usual thing, and what does it signal to you about the counsel that he does have in some of these cases? >> well, pro bono lawyering is well-known particularly in the public interest arena. in fact, my day job isar runnina pro bono shop, the institute for constitutional advocacy and protection, and we do all our work pro bono. that's usually thought representing aal candidate for president who's been well financed and portrayed himself as a billionaire for decades ani who is facing criminal charges in four different -- different states and federal cases as well. soed it's a very different typef thing to think about volunteer lawyering, and i haven't had time to a look into this yet, b i do think any volunteer lawyers will have to look into whether

their in kind contributions could be perceived to be political donations because thao could put restrictions on that. there are significant things we're seeing about donald trump's legal problems. one is we've been talking now how much he's spent on legal representation and how few lawyers he has onta his team. i would note that cnbc recently reported that he had left high and dry many of his former lawyers who are now his codefendants in the fani willis case and are unindicted coconspirators in the jack smit january 6th related case, so i think the lawyers whether they want to be volunteering or don't want to be volunteering ought to go into this thinking there's a good chance i'm not going to get paid, and that could certainly dissuade lawyers who are expecting to be paid from representing mr. trump. i think it also is a deterrent for additional lawyers or others in the future to, you know, hitch their wagon to mr. trump

who has a habit we now see of kind of dragging people into a situation where they base their own criminal liability like we're seeing now in these indictments, particularly the georgia indictment. and third, i think that most of the legal bills as i understand it now are being paid by one of his pacs, the save america pac, and this is a pac that recruited and sought money based on claims of election fraud. and at some point people making those small dollar gifts have got to think through do they really want their money to be going to defending o these multiple criminal cases. he's shift c arguing he's the victim of personal persecution and prosecution. still, for many people out there whout do not have substantial means and are contributing some of their income to these pacs

for thesese reasons, they may start thinking twice as so many more caseswi are piling up on h. >> andrew, mary makes a point about whoma is actually working for donald trump in terms of counsel. and maybe because he's such a difficult client or a notoriously tightfisted client who doesn't pay his bills, we're not talking about big law firms here. john lauro his website says they have four lawyers and a paralegal. todd blanch at blanche law there are two lawyers. you're talking about cases where the discovery in the federal case 11.6 million i believe documents, i know this is one of the excuses trump's legal team has said, we can't get to all this in the c allotted time. well, the reason for part of that is there's two people in theth shop. right, what can you tell me about the bare bones nature of his counsel given the mountain

of evidence that the feds have, that the d.a. has and how they're going to plow through that tow assemble a defense. >> it's interesting because it's a 2-inch sword in the d.c. case because you have jack smith who's saying i want a really fast trial.anly we're going to see the same thing playing out in the georgia case where fani willis is now saying i want a march trial. and at the same time the defense gets toti say, you know, it's a huge amount of resources needed to r get through this. so one of the things that was argued before judge chutkan in the d.c. case was could you give sensitive material to volunteer lawyers as mary talked about, and the judge basically was like isi really don't want volunteer lawyers because that opens a real pandoras box of exactly who's getting ofthis, but if they're employed lawyers, and that could be their discovery lawyers, their people you can

get of a person of limited purpose. she was clearly concerned about that issue. but if you're jack smith it's a tough call i because you want t get to trial, so you have to sort of allow the defense to expand its team to get through all ofto this. that's to mary's point this is somebody who's said he'soi a billionaire. we're now not talking about can you fund many other people, we're talking about his own defense. and leaving aside, yes, he doesn't have the big law firms for a variety of reasons -- >> he could bring in more lawyers. >> exactly. he's made zero showing he has the financial wherewithal to get through all this. just to repeat what judge chutkan said there's going to be a faster trial if you continue to t interfere with the justice, so heof is not helping himself with her ultimate decision. >> i do wonder if he could get a big law firm because he's so

toxic in the broader sense of society do they want to represent donald trump ory is blanche law, the two lawyers are they more inclined to? >> i keep using the example of david kendall. you have somebody who's like th cream of the crop where anybody in the legal profession looks ap who is representing and says, okay, that is absolutely top-notch, impeccable counsel. and i'mco not knocking todd ng blanche and john lauro, but they're not in the same caliber and there's a reason. part of it is mary's reason, it's a service, you should get paid for it. and the other is that if you're at that stage in your career where you would have somebody like ain former president, they need to take your advice. if you have somebody you could end upe like mr. corcoran wher you're a lawyer and a witness, which is unbelievable, mary and iva talked about this, you don'

want to be in that position. >> it's unbelievable evan corcoran is a witness. please do not go anywhere. when we come back this evening, what might be going through donald trump's mind as he faces a trip to the fulton county lock up overfu the next few days. we're going to get some insight from his niece, mary trump. plus special counsel jack smith wanted access to donald trump's twitter account, and he got it. the question is why. that is next.

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goli, taste your goals. talk to your doctor or pharmacist about arexvy today. jack smith has gotten his hands on donald trump's twitter account. according to newly unsealed court filings the special counsel requested everything from tweets, created, drafted, favorted, liked, or retweeted

by @real donald trump including any sensitive deleted ones to all messages sent from, stored by, or otherwise associated with @real donald trump. it is all stuff that the special counsel wanted to see. smith asked for other twitter data as well including location information to the user of @real donald trump from october 2020 to january 2021 and ip addresses. that is a lot that the special counsel has asked for and apparently received, so what exactly the feds looking for? still with me are mary mccord and andrew wiseman. mary, let me go to you first. what do you think jack smith is looking for in the direct messages? >> so the direct messages are interesting because i would not have necessarily expected he would be using the direct

message function, but it appears either he or someone else with access to his account was using that function, so i would be looking at a number of things. i would be looking at who's he having direct messages with? is it people responding to his twets? is it some of those people who showed up and attacked the capitol on january 6th or some of those people who threatened election workers or election officials in the particular states where the pressure campaign was put on? what was he saying to them if he was having those direct messages? the direct messages also could reveal intent. they could reveal knowledge. they could reveal consciousness of guilt. it's possible he was direct messaging people in his circle and it's possible some of those might acknowledge some of the falsity of the things he was tweeting. we just don't know, but i certainly would be interested if i were jack smith in seeing those. it's easy for us to guess what he was getting at, the ip addresses and locations when the

account was being used. jack smith needs to know who all had access and able to post tweets on that account. we know don scavino was one of those people, and the tweets the most incendiary here, the ones included in jack smith's indictment to the build up to jan 6th were the tweets that really got people planning to come on january 6th, that really promoted election fraud, that lied about mike pence's ability to not certify the vote and even lied about mike pence agreeing with him that he had the authority to not certify the vote. jack smith needs to know who said those because part of his theory is that's mr. trump. >> andrew, is it -- i know this is sort of asking the impossible of you, but do you think that jack smith is looking to get the information from the dms or from the draft messages or whatever, or do you think he's trying to

foreclose the possibility that trump can say i never sent that tweet, so he knows it wasn't dan scavino that said be there it'll be wild. >> the answer is both. you want to know everything. just to be clear, this application totally normal for all the reasons mary said. you want to know e-mails, any sort of texting, dms, any sort of form of communication of the person you're investigating you want to know. it's standard, bear how the former chief judge who presided over this made a point of saying i know all about this because from special counsel mueller's case. there were hundreds of these that were done, so she knows this is a standard practice. and it's particularly useful when you discover a form of communication where the people using it don't think that law enforcement can get it because there may be sort of candor. one note of caution. i think if this was really

bombshell evidence we would have seen some sign of it in the jack smith january 6th indictment. and it's not a necessary to put it in, but i just think if it was something really explosive given just how much was revealed in that indictment there would have been some sign of it. >> maybe it is the latter, that jack smith needs to know in the same way you interview witnesses who aren't going to necessarily say what you need to say for their case, they aren't going to say anything that actively harms you. it's i never sent that tweet, i never sent that dm. >> absolutely, you're looking for all of that but sometimes it's a dry haul and you don't get anything. it can be you foreclose the issue of the defendant saying, oh, warb wait, i didn't do that. it could be one of those things where it could all those going in because you don't know what's going to be in the box to see

what's inside and judge howell was just excellent about pressing them for stop playing games and she said why are you doing the this with respect to former president trump when you haven't done this to -- >> anyone else. >> because she knows because she's been presiding over these things with this exact company. again, i understood some note of caution in my own head how important this information could be. >> it's interesting all t's are being crossed, all eyes are being dotted. mary mccord and andrew wiseman, my two favorite podcasters in this season of litigation, thank you so much for your time and wisdom. i really appreciate it. >> happy anniversary. >> thank you. still ahead this evening she warned trump about his inflammatory remarks and now the judge handling the january 6th case is getting death threats.

that story is coming up. but first, what is waiting interest donald trump when he has to surrender and be booked inside a fulton county jail? mary trump joins me to talk about all that coming up next. stay with us. stay with us

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for you. >> by next friday donald trump and 18 others will all have to surrender at the rice street jail in atlanta. and if they are treated the same way as every other defendant as the sheriff suggested there, they will have to take mug shots and get fingerprinted and fill out forms including a medical questionnaire. now in his previous three criminal indictments the former president was processed and arraigned in a matter of hour. there were no mug shots, and there were no cameras present. but at the rice street jail the booking process can take up to 12 hours because of overcrowding. and defendants have to be booked and arraigned separately. that arraignment could happen on camera some time during the wek of september 5th. mr. trump could appear virtually or waive it, but he will have to show up to the jail regardless some time before friday, august 25th. that is the deadline for him to surrender and be booked and processed on all 13 counts in the fulton county criminal

indictment. joining me now is someone who knows mr. trump very well, mary trump. she's donald trump's niece and the author and host of the donald trump podcast. i'm so eager to get your thoughts on the man -- your uncle you know well. the first is i kind of wonder as we talk about the booking process and potential mug shots and fingerprints and kind of marching through jail like every other defendant, what you think of this idea that chris christie floated a couple weeks ago. he says he knows trump really well and no matter how he's been bragging and going on about not being afraid, he goes to bed every night thinking about sound of that jail cell door closing behind him. do you think that deep down inside this is weighing on him in the middle of the night, for example? >> yeah, and first of all, thank you so much for having me. it's great to be here. i don't think that it's as

conscious as chris christie seems to think because there's so many reasons for donald not to believe this is happening, first of all. and secondly, probably the worst thing he can feel is humiliation. so he us a lot of weapons at his disposable, a lot of defense mechanisms to displace that humiliation, to make it unconscious so he doesn't have to feel -- so we've been hearing from a lot of people in his inner circle he's furious all the time. it's much better to feel angry than it is to feel humiliated or afraid, but donald is and always has been a frightened little boy deep down, and i actually believe that when he goes through this process next week or in the coming days if he does as he should, as all of them should because everybody else in his business know it might

actually start breaking through that there's nothing he can do to get out of this. he wasn't arrogant, he wasn't brash. he submitted in a way that was weak, and we're going to see the same thing but on steroids next week i believe. >> i think you're making such, well, keen observations quite obviously because you know the man well. but i think what you say about the manner in which he has sort of denied this reality is through anger and vitriol, and you can kind of deny the concept of incarceration, but when he is walked and potentially mug shotted and fingerprinted and put through a jail system that is not at all similar to the booking process he's gown through thus far, i wonder if that in and of itself is a form of humiliation, just the man who has to descend from the guilded

palace in which he resides to sort of the basis levels of the judicial system and treated like a common criminal. that very process to me seems like a schizomatic moment in donald trump's life. >> yeah, and quite honestly just the fact he has to show up on somebody else's schedule and he does not have the option of saying you know what i don't want to do this, that in itself is humiliating enough. we are seeing a man who for his entire life has never had the experience of being held accountable for kblg, you know, who has never had to submit to anybody, who has always had the system rigged in his favor at this point now where for the fourth time not only -- i'm sorry, for the fourth time he's going to have to show up instead in front of a judge or go through the processing, but this time he's going to actually go through all of it just like any

common criminal defendant. >> you mentioned that concept of accountability and how it's not something that donald trump is particularly familiar with. i wonder what you think of the peril he keeps putting himself in legally speaking by lashing out at prosecutors, targeting judges, speaking badly about the very people who will determine his fate, and being effectively not threatened but potentially forced to pay a price for that in the form of a trial date that's moved up or a fine or even the possibility of being incarcerated while he awaits trial. do you think there is anything at this point that can force donald trump to stop the vitriol, to stop the tweets, to stop the rants, or is he just going to push this as far as he possibly can? >> the short answer is no, he is not going to be able to stop himself. and there's been a really interesting shift over the last few months or couple of years. the way in which he is

presenting himself in social media, the kind of -- attacking nature, the aggressiveness, that used to be strategy for him. you know, he used to throw temper tantrums strategically to get his way. it's not strategy anymore, but he's literally doing what he's done in other context, which is pushing the envelope to see how much he can get away with, which obviously until this time has been everything. but the unconscious fear, terror, and especially fear of humiliation is so strong that he cannot course correct and realize that doing what he's always done is at this time not going to get him what he wants, in fact, quite the opposite. >> yeah, i mean the idea that anger has become the dominant emotion to effectively make up for all the other things that he doesn't want to feel is a

dangerous proposition indeed. mary trump, it's invaluable to have your perspective on this and this individual at this time. thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you. still ahead this evening donald trump and maga republicans pride themselves on being the party that backs the blue, but what happens when they are the ones in handcuffs? that is next. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of

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last week a 12-year-old was taking out the trash at his home in lancing, michigan, when this happen. a lancing police officer approached him with his gun drawn and then put the 12-year-old in handcuffs and detained him. officers claim that the child who is not old enough to drive matched the description of a suspected car thief in the area. the boy's parents say their son was terrified by the incident, and you can sort of see that in the video. despite having done nothing wrong, the boy doesn't resist the officer as he is handcuffed and pulled by the arm to a police cruiser. now, contrast that with the way that this adult man in texas reacted when he was confronted and put in handcuffs by law enforcement.

the man you just saw hurling expletives at police officers is texas republican congressman ronny jackson. the video shows congressman jackson getting into an altercation with police, becoming belligerent and eventually being forced to the ground. congressman jackson had been attending a rodeo mere amarillo texas when a teenager began reportedly experiencing a medical smaerjs. congressman jackson who's a physician attempted to assist the teenager, but when police asked the congressman to step back so that emergency medical services could respond, congressman jackson reportedly began shouting and threatening to beat up a state trooper. that is when the handcuffs came out and ronny jackson was thrown to the ground. it should be noted that this is the same congressman ronny jackson who has accused democrats of failing to support law enforcement. in may of 2021 ronny jackson tweeted unlike our president i will always standby our

country's police officers, back the blue. since this indictment, congressman jackson has stood by his actions claiming he was right to disobey the officer's orders, it is one of the latest examples we have when a republican party that claims to support law enforcement right up until the moment that members of this party find themselves in trouble with the law. there's no better example of this than donald trump who regularly calls for law and order while simultaneously attacking law enforcement and dividing prosecutors. just to be clear here it's not always that police actions are justified. the story of 12-year-old bernard makes that abundantly clear. but policing like that is exact lewhat reform advocates are trying to change and precisely what republicans are trying to weaponize. and today trump's very real attacks on law enforcement and our system of justice appear to have placed innocent people in

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donald trump has waged a very public war against law enforcement and the roscurators who have indicted him and targeted fultp county d.a. fani willis calling her a failed d.a. from atlanta where murderers and crimes soar. yesterday trump used the word rigors in a truth social post berating willis. rigors of course rhymes with something else and perhaps that was the point. despite multiple orders not to, trump has continued these attacks, now there are real life consequences. today a woman in texas was arrested for allegedly threatening the federal judge overseeing the 2020 election case against trump.

abigail joe shry called judge chutkan a woman of jamaican descent a stupid slave. you are in our sights, we want to kill you. if trump doesn't get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you, so tread lightly. she ended that statement with a word that rhymes with witch. she also used that word that rhymes with rigor. this comes days after an fbi man fatally shot a utah man that threatened to kill manhattan d.a. alvin bragg. michelle, it is so terribly distressing and so completely unsurprising that this is sort of the harvest of all the threats that trump has made online. i mean can we see this as anything other than a response or an extension of what trump has been calling for on social media? >> no, and this has been the pattern throughout his

presidency, right? you saw the entire time he was in office he would make hez threats, and his more worshipful fans, journalists and democrats and the like would try to act on them. and so he's kind of warned oevg and over again that's where these threats lead to, and only leads him to escalate them. it strikes me how people talk about special treatment. he is being treated with such kid gloves. he's being treated so unlike any other criminal defendant in his position in that there has been so far very little sanction for, you know, threats, witness intimidations, intimations. when you think about what's happening in georgia, georgia's law on bail might be unreasonably strict in that you basically -- it puts the burden of proof on the defendant to show they don't pose a risk of witness tampering or obstruction of justice. and mean there is no universe in

which donald trump poses no risk of witness tampering or obstruction of justice, but i don't think anybody expects him to be held pending trial. you know, but at some point there has to be some sort of sanction or it's just going to keep escalating. >> right. and i think it's dangerous for him not to face some kind of sanction. honestly if the fine isn't going to do it, moving the trial date up and around seems very complicated and almost impossible in the georgia case. so then what's left? incarceration and then it's sorto widely dismissed as impossible. but if trump doesn't face some sort it's an implicit acceptance. >> i think it has to be at least on the table. if you look at what happened with the e. jean carol verdict, he gets a $5 million verdict for defamation after he's held responsible for sexual assault, and basically the next day he's back to defaming her all over again, so he's someone who's not going to be held in check by --

and in fact not only is he not going to be held in check but seems to perceive any limits as a kind of dare and a goal to double down on his aggression. yeah, i think at least i think we should stop talking about jail as unthinkable and start saying there's going to be a point and maybe judges should be clear about where that point is at which it will become inevitable. >> i think it's because not just donald trump but also the example he sets to other would-be sort of people who exhibit threatening behavior. i have to recall the video we just played of ronny jackson, a republican congressman who's out there berating law enforcement, calling them many names under the sun and then audaciously has the huts paw, i don't know what

you call it. the fallacy of that line, that position is revealed so acutely in moments like this. and even though it is repetitive, i think it really bears mentioning when law enforcement comes for you, there's no backing the blue. >> right, i don't think that's what backing the blue means. it means basically backing the blue in there in the way they have used that phrase means the law should be a kind of praetorian guard against a certain stratus of people and backed to defend their property interests. it certainly doesn't mean law and order in the general sense or global sense, otherwise the republican party would have been outraged of what happened to the capitol police on january 6thch. >> back the blue came out as a collective conservative response to the black lives matter movement. there is an implicit racial and racist thread that runs through these people. >> the police they're not

supposed to police them. police are supposed to police other people. when police end up policing say donald trump or ronny jackson they are by this definition stepping out of their -- stepping out of their proper role. >> i do wonder between january 6th and defund the fbi, whether law enforcement proper as an institution begins to break with a republican party that continues to be headed by someone like trump who himself is facing multiple criminal indictments, is deriding prosecutors, law enforcement officials and is accusing basically the department of justice of being a wing of the deep state. do you just think the institutional sort of desires of law enforcement are too closely aligned with the republican party to ever see a break no matter haw vitriolic the relationship gets? >> yes. >> full stop, it'll never happen. >> i'm sure it happens at the higher levels of, for example, the fbi, the justice department

among some prosecutors. but, no, i think fundamentally there are plenty of i think plenty of police who also see that back the blue definition of their role, right, as to kind of protect the donald trumps of the world as opposed to protect the world from donald trump. >> i just wonder if the hypocrisy, if he's actually convicted whether the republican party i truly say without even a glimmer of a smile on its face it's truly the party of law and order. >> well, it hasn't been the party of law and order. >> but the front-runner of their party for the nomination may be a convict at one point. >> well, the front-runner for -- already he's charged with 91 felonies. he's been found guilty of sexual assault -- not found guilty but found responsible for sexual assault. his company has, you know -- is about to be tried for -- i don't even remember offhand. >> there's a lot.

>> right. all kinds of layers of fraud. nobody believes donald trump is a rule follower, but he preserves a certain sort of hierarchy. >> he sure does. michelle goldberg, no better person to work ourselves up in a lather about this. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. we must be prepared to lobby our republican legislatures by personal contact and by demonstrating the overwhelming will of the people in their state, in each state that this may need to happen. >> that's new video of trump ally roger stone