this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. beautiful shot of washington, d.c. for you on this thursday morning. it is 6:00 on the east coast, good morning. and welcome to "morning joe." it's thursday, august 17th, and we have a lot to get to including a trial date proposal from the fulton county d.a. fani willis. we'll have the latest on her ambitious time line. plus, a woman is now facing charges for threatening the federal judge in donald trump's election case. we'll have the disturbing details on that. meanwhile, a trump ally who's been off the radar for awhile is making headlines this morning. we'll show you the video of roger stone that could do serious damage to the claims from trump's legal team. >> i saw it on ari melber last night. >> it's staggering. >> it's staggering.

he's actually before the election is called. >> yeah. >> mapping it out. >> he's mapping out the entire conspiracy. >> the enterprise. >> that they followed to undermine the election and to take votes away from the voters and have republican trump friendly state legislators steal states for donald trump, and they follow that road map. what's fascinating, again, he did this before -- >> before. >> -- the election was called. >> we'll have that videotape. a significant show of solidarity from allies in the pacific. we'll explain the major meeting happening tomorrow at camp david. with us we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico and author of "the big lie," jonathan lemire, president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton, and founder of the conservative website, the

bulwark, charlie sykes is with us this morning. new polling on how americans view the serious legal issues surrounding donald trump. and their impact on the presidential race. despite strong support among republican voters, new numbers show trump's criminal charges could spell trouble for him in a general election. >> that's an understatement. >> we have a lot of legal issues to get to pertaining to all of this. but first the politics of it seems to be playing out. in the latest ap/. this orc center survey, nearly two-thirds, 64% say they would probably or definitely not support trump if he is the republican nominee next year. overall, 62% view the former president unfavorably compared to 33% who view him favorably. as for the four pending cases against him, just 15% of americans are buying the ex-president's claims that he

did nothing illegal in the georgia case, and when it comes to his hoarding of nuclear secrets on the contrary, 53% say his actions were illegal. 53% also say they approve of the decision to indict trump in the federal election interference case. >> so we have a number of polls here. >> there's more coming. >> dan suggested we break these up beforehand and i thought -- >> there's so much. >> so much to get to before we even get to the fox news poll but, charlie sykes, this is what republicans have quietly been panicking about. you look at these numbers. 64%, jonathan lemire, we'll go to you real quick. 64% in the ap poll, 64% say they're not going to support trump next year. i actually saw people connected

with mitch mcconnell and other republicans tweeting that out, that this is devastating. that's who the republicans are moving towards putting up. he has a 33% approval rating, a favorable rating in that poll. the majority believe what he did was illegal, and there are so many other polls that came out yesterday that are showing the same thing. independents breaking dramatically away from donald trump. independents saying, he should have been indicted. independents saying overwhelmingly that what he did was illegal. and you look -- it's strange that to me at least but actually the georgia case, voters are more hostile toward him on the georgia case than actually election interference, where it's still 47% say what he did was illegal, and an additional

18% said it was unethical but the georgia case and the classified documents case, those two cases look like the strongest which is exactly what andy mccarthy wrote about in "the new york post," those classified docs and georgia interference cases that are going to cause him the most trouble probably legally and politically. >> well, that's the same view held in trump world, those are the two cases all along that they've been most concerned about because they're the easiest to understand. americans even who are not paying that much attention who get lost in the steady stream of headlines that emanate from donald j. trump, they get that you shouldn't have nuclear secrets at your golf club in florida and heard the phone call in which he's pushing the secretary of state, brad raffensperger, to find him the votes to win. they get that. that resonates, that breaks through and the poll is startling going through more,

there are 54% of people polled saying donald trump threatened the very idea of democracy while only 19% say he defended it. among the general populations, this is both parties, 64% of americans, 64% of americans say they will definitely or probably not support trump in 2024. that only leaves you with 36%. you can't win an election with 36%. so, this is as much as trump has tightened his grip on the republican party and while he is far and away ahead in the gop primary field, these are general election numbers and general election numbers that would not only spell a loss for donald trump but drag down the rest of the ticket too and that's why there are a lot of republicans panicking that they can lose the house and the senate would be -- their chance to retake the senate would also be jeopardized if trump's name is atop the ballot. >> you know, we've been careful not to draw any conclusions on where republicans are going to

go just because it's been so impossible to figure that out in the past six, seven years. my former party, i will say, charlie sykes, for me, this is feeling a lot like june of 1974 leading up to nixon's resignation in august, trump will not back out, but i tell the story repeatedly of my father, what i'm trying to get my arms around this, i remember my dad staying with nixon until the very end and then reading the transcripts of the tapes and saying, that guy is unworthy to be president. you look at these numbers. i mean, 64% of americans saying they're not going to support trump, his approval rating at 33%, 54% saying he threatened democracy itself. 18% saying maybe he strengthened it. his unfavorable views exploding

in -- you know, continuing to go up, and then you look at these actions, classified documents, majority say what he did was illegal, and georgia election interference, 51% say it was illegal, 13% say unethical. only 15%, only 15% of americans, let's underline this, agree with donald trump that he did nothing wrong. only 15% of americans agree with donald trump that he did nothing wrong in the classified documents case. only 14% of americans say he did nothing wrong in the hush money case. of course, that is by far for good reason the weakest case, but these numbers, it sure seems like they're moving in one direction and, charlie, the bad news for him is, the more people find out about these cases, the worse news it is for donald

trump. >> yeah, they ought to be a stunning reality check. now we'll find out whether the republican party continues to be immune to reality. this ought to be the moment, by the way, though, that we -- it ought to mark the end of all the magical thinking among republicans that, you know, something, something, something, unicorn was going to come along and take care of donald trump that they didn't have to do it. that somebody else would take care of the problem. you know, that sense that they could amplify and rationalize and defend him and somehow run against him for president, look, this is the moment where we have all of the major indictments have come down and yet republican voters continue to rally around him, so there's the challenge, what does mike pence do? what does ron desantis do? what does glenn youngkin do? will they continue to go along with the same old, same old conventional wisdom, we have to humor him. remember that quote right after

the election. what harm would it be to simply humor him? we'll continue to echo his comments about the weaponization of the justice system but as you're pointing out, there are giant reality checks saying, republicans, do you know what you are about to do, you know, we keep talking about these focus groups of trump voters and what people are saying in diners in west virginia, take a step back and realize you have more than 60% of americans saying, no, we're done with donald trump. we are not going to vote for donald trump. that ought to be the ultimate check for republican leaders right now. >> we were joking about chuck rosenberg yesterday, about how mika wanted to talk to me about, like, somebody was saying on another cable news channel -- >> i thought it was important to know what other people are saying. >> 7:30, 8:00 at night and i was listening to some music to kind of forget about the day, the

news day, and i said, we don't need to hear what they say. it doesn't matter what they say. what matters is what goes on in the courtrooms, and we all know where this is going, and you look at these poll numbers, we all know where this is going and i think the question, mika, is how long does tim scott, again, somebody i've said is a very strong candidate, how long does tim scott humiliate himself by pretending that donald trump did nothing wrong? how long does he humiliate himself by talking about hunter biden taking $7 million saying nothing about jared kushner's $3 billion, only 1% of that is coming from the united states and the rest coming from people he worked with in the gulf, like, how long are they going to paint these false equivalencies? i'm not saying jared did anything illegal but if you're going to say donald trump sold

nuclear secrets and hunter biden making $7 million from three different -- and it's 7 -- from three different countries, and you're going to create this false narrative. i keep trying to say it and i wish somebody would listen to me in the republican party other than chris christie. this ends badly. this ends badly. >> yeah. >> you look terrible defending this guy who tried to steal an election and undermine democracy for the rest of your life. >> more importantly, you look weak. they look weak. you want to elect a leader that can stand strong in the face of whatever comes his or her way. >> right. >> and if something is wrong, a leader will say, that's wrong, that's not what our constitution says. >> right. >> that's not what a democracy is about. that's not the president i will

be. where is that? >> as jonathan lemire pointed out, a majority of americans say donald trump threatened the very existence of democracy itself. only 18% said he strengthened it. like, so i agree, you know, we can go to diners where we want to go to and every american's voice is valid. every vote should count the same, but this -- i think the media needs to just wake up and stop obsessing on the people who make you catastrophized and say the craziest things to get more views, more hits, more whatever, because the reality is, i mean, what matters as chuck said is what happens in the courtroom. not the crazy stuff you're reading on social media or that

you're -- >> watching on television. >> or that you're watching on television on another network or that your crazy uncle sends to you something he thought about while he was on the toilet and you give that as much credence as you do news stories that come out of "the wall street journal" with hundreds and hundreds of journalists with dozens and dozens of editors with the understanding that if they don't get it right, they're in big trouble, right? >> yeah. >> so, you could do all that if you want, you're wasting your time because right now it's what matters inside the jury box and politically, mika, you look at these numbers, you see what independents are doing and let me say again, republicans, this doesn't get better. isn't it interesting that democrats want cameras in the courtroom, democrats want transparency, democrats want this trial before the election. if you're innocent, what are you

saying, yeah, i want cameras in the courtroom. >> right. >> yeah, get this -- i'm innocent. give us time to get ready, and you are damn right i want this before the election because i want my name cleared. what does donald trump and his republican supporters who they say, no cameras in the courtroom, no, no, no transparency, we don't want people actually to see what he did and yet let's push it off after the election, after the election. we don't want the jury -- we don't want the jury to have a say before the election. let me tell you, that's somebody who's guilty, because if you're accused of doing something you didn't do, you want transparency if you've been charged, you want that trial as soon as possible, you want it on tv for all the world to see. they don't. and r and also politically, mika, again, what matters is a jury box but politically, look at where the independents are going here.

the independents tell the tale for republicans. >> so fox news poll shows the majority of voters think donald trump broke the law in his efforts to stay in power following the 2020 election. in the survey, 53% say his actions after the vote were illegal. that includes 62% of independents who believe he broke the law. i'll go on to a new quinnipiac poll conducted after jack smith's federal indictment of trump this month, but before the georgia -- the fulton county indictment showing 54% of americans think the former president should be prosecuted on federal criminal charges relating to his attempt to overturn the 2020 election. >> so hear those numbers, 62% of independents believe donald trump, what he did was illegal, 62%.

only 22%, only -- wrong one. there we go. only 22% say it was not illegal. >> so, reverend -- >> 62% to 22%. that's who the republican party -- that's who they're embracing. >> so there's a lot of questions as to why republicans would continue to walk down this road, reverend al. candidates like tim scott refusing to answer questions about basic, basic things that donald trump did. republican leaders in congress as well, not seeing how badly this ends, i mean, do the polls at this point, do the polls trigger a turn from donald trump, because everyone with a brain who understands basics of the law and the constitution can see where this is going. >> it shows the political cowardness of a lot of opponents

of donald trump in the primaries, because apparently their voting public, the republican voting public is clearer than they are. how do you have these kinds of polls and you don't have any of the major candidates that are challenging or claiming to be challenging donald trump for the nomination even near where the polls are saying their voters are and it is outrageous when you think about it taking a step back that the leadership of the party has acquiesced to somebody that is not only legally in question, but is clearly toxic to a lot of the public. so what are you winning here? and i think joe makes a very good point, if you have nothing to hide, if you accuse me of something i felt i was totally innocent of, i would say, rush to trial because i want to be acquitted at best, hung jury the

worst before the election. why would i want till after? if i'm acquitted before it gives me a momentum if i'm donald trump to say that, see, i can win these primaries, i already proved one case wrong. the fact that you know the facts means you want to kick the can down the curb as long as you can, because you know what you know and you know everybody else may know it at trial. >> exactly, and, charlie sykes, i mean, is it cowardice or stupidity. >> he -- >> they know they're going to lose in '24 with donald trump at the head of the ticket. they know that. you look at these numbers, they know that. so, i mean, when i was a republican, not only did we like to win, we like to win big. >> right. >> i didn't like close races. i never had close races. i got angry if it ever looked

like it was going to be a close race, we ran and we ran hard and ran to win and now you have people running to lose and see the numbers, they know they're going to lose and these politicians, you know, it's almost like a doctor that opens up a patient to see if they have cancer, finds it all over their body, closes the body and tells the patient, you're fine. you're good. you're going out. clean bill of health. enjoy yourself. when the doctor knows what's going to happen. this is what republican leaders are doing now. they know they're going to lose with trump. >> well, they have two problems, number one, they're not leaders, they're followers of the base and they've been doing this for seven years and many of them know obviously that they're going to lose with trump but also afraid they will lose without trump. this is the corner they've put themselves in.

they've got a base that is so rabidly behind the cult leader that if donald trump is defeated or pushed aside, they're worried those voters won't turn out and vote so they have to figure out how do you push past donald trump without antagonizing his base and nobody has figured that out yet. but i do think, you know, to your previous questions, i think the debate in milwaukee next week is going to be kind of interesting. by the way, i totally agree with you, i don't think donald trump will show up but we'll see whether or not, you know, there is a response to this massive reality check from the other candidates, whether tim scott actually wants to run for president or wants to run for vice president, because if there's going to be a pivot, it's hard to imagine that it doesn't happen relatively soon. >> all right. now to a disturbing situation out of texas where a woman was arrested and charged with threatening the federal judge presiding over former president donald trump's federal election interference case in washington,

d.c. the 43-year-old who was denied bail allegedly threatened to kill judge tanya chutkan and want to warn you some details are disturbing. according to an affidavit filed last week the woman recently left a voice mail laden with racial slurs for chutkan where she said you are in our sights, we want to kim you and goes on and on targeting you personally and your family, all of it. i don't even -- >> mika doesn't want to read it. >> i don't want to highlight it but the woman is threatening to kill sheila jackson lee who is also african american as well as other democrats and members of the lgbtq community. nbc news reached out to the woman's lawyer for comment but we have not heard back yet. joining us now nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian.

ken, i would think as the indictments rack up, now with the georgia one and donald trump having his press conference on monday and putting out his own opinions as to what's happening to him and naming names in these indictments doesn't, i would think some would argue this doesn't help the situation in terms of the safety of our judges and juries and other people trying to uphold the law. >> of course, mika, you're absolutely right. you know, the day after judge tanya chutkan was named, reporters noticed she was accompanied everywhere she went inside the federal courthouse in washington, d.c. by a security detail which was a new development and now we know why she needed that security detail. the woman's name who's been charged is abigail jo shry, she's 43 and lives in a town

south of houston. and i don't think we should shy away from letting people know exactly how vile the threats made -- in a phone call to judge chutkan's chambers were and began with, hey you stupid slave "n" word and she went on to say, if trump doesn't get elected in 2024 according to the criminal complaint we're coming to kill you, so tread lightly, "b" word and added, you will be targeted personally, publicly, your family, all of it. and now it emerged in the hearing, the reason she was held without bail is because she had been arrested four times for making threats, other similar kinds of threats to public officials and others, so this is a repeat offender, somebody who is not well but there's a pattern here, right? the fbi just shot to death a man in utah who had a trump hat and who was armed and who was engaging in angry rhetoric. the man who attacked paul pelosi

in his house in san francisco engaging in some of the same rhetoric he had seen online. so, absolutely law enforcement officials deeply, deeply concerned about all of this and, of course, in another development, the names of the grand jurors in georgia which are public in that state were immediately vacuumed up by trump supporters online who then doxxed them and published their addresses on fringe websites which we're not going to identify because we don't want to spread that but a deeply worrying development, no doubt, for those people and their families and that's the kind of climate that we are in right now and it's very, very dangerous. >> well, and it's not a climate that grows by itself. it's a climate that's been generated by hatred from donald trump from tweet after tweet and our truth after truth social -- >> anyone doesn't think that also thinks january 6th was

just a random act. >> well, exactly. >> i mean, come on. >> look at the hatred toward officials, the fbi, if you're coming after me, i'm coming after you, et cetera, it goes on and on. ken dilanian, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent, ken, we really appreciate you being with us on what's going to be a long day for you, so we appreciate it. ken brings up some great points here, rev. there's -- i think back to -- i think back to the guy who had all the pipe bombs in florida, that he was going to use on people, paul pelosi's attacker, again, echoing language used by trump and trump supporters, the fbi, he talked about the utah guy, the fbi having to shoot the person in utah who was making assassination threats and then raised his gun and had his gun

raised and his neighbors screamed hearing him say, i'm not coming out. i think about after all the threats against the fbi, the attack on the fbi office in ohio. it goes on and on. they are -- donald trump and some extreme supporters are, you know, they're promoting this violence because their words are violent and, again, i could list a hundred things that trump and his supporters have said and have done where they promote, you know, fascist-style violence against government officials. i mean, my god, just look. he's not a trump supporter but he's learning to play trump's game. ron desantis when asked about federal employees, he said on the first day he's going to slit their throats. this is the rhetoric that has taken over in the republican party and we see the consequences of it.

>> the republican party leadership not coming out denouncing it and none of the candidates, the top tier candidates really denouncing the violence, the rhetoric as you've pointed out, slit throat all the way to donald trump saying, i'm going to come after you in the midst of people being arrested and one man shot dead because he was -- had a weapon at fbi agents, and the racial language. i mean, this woman to call a federal office or call a judge's chambers, talking about to a slave, using a word that rhymes with the "n" word, donald trump himself, their leader, using the term riggers, which clearly rhymes with the "n" word. >> exactly. >> this is not ten years ago. >> come on. >> or 30 years ago when we marched for the central park five. i'm talking about he within the

last 24 hours used the term riggers. is this the kind of party the republicans want to show the country that they are? there's no wonder independents are running away from them to identify this blatant racism and blatant violence is not the party that we need and i've never been a republican, never leaned their way but we need a two-party system but we don't need one that prides itself in bigotry. >> yeah, and trump is used racist and inflammatory language for so long and only leaning into it further as he's dealing with whether it's this judge who is african american or d.a. alvin bragg, a black man, something he is putting central to his defense and his supporters are following his lead and joe and mika, this is something i've been hammering home for months talking about how i've been talking to state and federal officials so worried about violence. the paul pelosi example is one of it. they feel like this is now normalized because of the trump

era, because of january 6th, and they deeply worry that's going to become more of the norm. more threats and more acts of violence as part of the political process as we lead up to the 2024 election. deeply, deeply worrisome. >> don't disagree with that at all. still ahead on "morning joe," an update on the push by former trump chief of staff mark meadows to move his charges in the georgia election case to federal court, plus, none of the criminal prosecutions of donald trump can keep him from running in 2024 but our next guest argues the former president might already be disqualified. we'll explain why. also ahead, the latest on wildfire recovery efforts in hawaii as president biden plans a trip to the disaster in maui. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. k.

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movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. sleepiness and stomach issues are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. the former president and his allies have said for more than 2 1/2 years and continued to insist at this very hour the georgia election was not stolen and i had no right to overturn the election on january 6th. [ applause ] it's a hard truth, my friend governor brian kemp said it well yesterday. he said, quote, for nearly three years anyone with evidence of fraud has failed to come forward. >> republican presidential candidate mike pence has repeatedly said that anyone who disdiscounts the constitution should never be elected again.

but our next guest notes that none of trump's criminal prosecutions even if he is convicted can constitutionally stop him from running and winning next year's election. that is unless state officials keep him off the ballot. here to explain is "the washington post" columnist and nbc news election law analyst ned foley. his latest piece is entitled "forget the trump trials, he might already be ineligible for 2024." if you could explain that and is this a technical way that he may not be eligible, like, what would it take for this to actually happen with -- >> good morning. good to be with you. this provision of the constitution was adopted after the civil war to stop people who had been in the united states government who had taken an oath to uphold the constitution but then betrayed that oath by

joining the confederacy, so congress put into the constitution as part of the 14th amendment the prohibition they could never serve in federal government again or in government, federal or state government again. but it's written broadly to apply not just to the civil war itself, but to any insurrection or rebellion against the united states so the issue is whether or not that provision applies to trump, and if it does, what procedurally is the way to adjudicate that before the election. >> so, ned, walk us through that argument. if a state were to pursue this course here against donald trump, try to prevent him from appearing on the ballot, what would be the machinations for that to occur and how would it be received in the courts because certainly trump would be appealing. >> yes, so i think the way it proceeds in the court is important. i think we're definitely going

to get litigation. there are a couple of private groups that have already said they'll pursue this but there are technical rules of jurisdiction and court procedure that would make it better if this was brought by state officials, say, a secretary of state who is in charge of the election procedures for that state. but in order to make that as clear as possible, a state legislature should set the pathway for that kind of litigation, because under our constitution it's state legislatures that have the power to determine presidential elections, the appointment of the presidential electors and so forth so to make this as clear and orderly as possible, it would be good for a state legislature to spell out exactly how the procedure should get into court. >> yeah, what's so fascinating, ned, of course, and we saw last week in an adam liptak article in "the new york times," conservative, prominent conservative members of the federalist societies, professors are making similar arguments

from adam's piece last week, prominent law professors have concluded trump is ineligible under the constitution that bars people that engaged in an insurrection from holding government office. they are active members of the federalist society, the conservative legal group and proponents of originalism. the professors studied the question for more than a year, of course, they have a long article coming out, i guess, in the law review, the university of pennsylvania law review next year. talk about your argument and their argument. are they similar? do you branch out in certain ways or do you all agree that you go back and you look at this post civil war statute as a bar for donald trump? >> i essentially agree with their position, but the point

that i add in my piece is it matters that this goes to the u.s. supreme court. it's not enough for law professors to say this, this has to be decided definitively one way or the other by the united states supreme court. there are arguments on both sides. it is a debatable question about exactly how this provision of the constitution applies to former president trump and so that just needs to be clarified and it's important it be clarified before the election next year, so that when voters see their ballots, they know that they can vote for a qualified candidate. the thing i fear the most is that the whole election goes forward and that this then issue arises after the voting and there's an attempt to disqualify him if, for example, he were to win afterwards. >> charlie. >> charlie. >> i guess my main question, though, is political. i agree that, you know, section 3 of the 14th amendment does

disqualify donald trump but on a practical level let's say in my home state of wisconsin the -- there would have been a court ruling saying donald trump should not appear on the ballot and by a 4-3 majority, the liberal majority the wisconsin supreme court says yes, wisconsin voters should not even be able to vote for donald trump. i mean, i understand legal merits of that but i wonder how that plays around the country and i wonder whether that's one of those things, be careful what you wish for. if, in fact, you have courts around the country basically saying, yeah, we're not even going to allow voters to vote for donald trump, i mean, i agree with the legal argument but politically, sounds messy to me. >> i agree 100%. that's why i think it has to come from the united states supreme court as the court for the whole nation and what i think is even worse potentially than the kind of chaotic different opinions and different courts around the country that you mentioned, if congress attempted to invoke this provision, you know, on january 6th, 2025 after, let's say,

hypothetically trump has won the electoral college. i think to take this away from the voters after they cast ballots would be most fraught for peril and the kind of potential violence that you were talking about in an earlier segment on the show, so, you know, there is an argument that congress could invoke this afterwards under the procedures of the 12th amendment and all the reforms that are appropriately took place after the january 6th insurrection to improve those procedures doesn't deal with this issue because this issue goes to the eligibility of a candidate, not the counting of the ballots. >> nbc news election law analyst ned foley, thank you very much for explaining that for us and coming up -- >> it is fascinating. >> it is, but charlie put the question better, it's how to get it, you know, into action. >> what's so fascinating you have members of the federalist society. >> exactly. >> some of the most conservative

jurists, professors saying the same thing. >> that is interesting. coming up president biden will send a clear message to china and north korea tomorrow when he hosts the leaders of japan and south korea in a key summit at camp david. we'll have a preview of the expected announcement on military cooperation between the u.s. and its asian allies. that's next on "morning joe."

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what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch. the death toll from the devastating maui wildfires is climbing. over 110 people are confirmed dead and more than 1,000 people are still unaccounted for.

only five of the victims have been publicly identified as first responders work to inform families. all were in their 70s or older while officials warn the death toll is expected to continue to rise. "the new york times" reports that as of yesterday afternoon, less than 40% of the total burn zone had been searched. >> you look at this story, rev, and you just -- i'm sorry. you just -- i can't fathom how this happened in 2023, that this town would burn and it would burn out of control and people weren't evacuated in time or there wasn't sufficient water supply or you add up all of the excuses by the local officials, none of them makes sense. these senior citizens left to burn to death and it's still -- it's still just impossible to

comprehend that this would happen in america. >> it's mind-boggling how it seems there was no preparation, no structure in mace for what we would assume would be an area of preparation for any american city, particularly something that you get so many tourists to come to is maui is mind-boggling how unprepared they were and the loss of life of these senior citizens because of it. it's just mind-boggling. >> president biden and the first lady will visit the hawaii wildfire disaster zone on monday according to a release from the white house. they will meet with first responders, tour the aftermath of the damage and discuss next steps in the recovery effort. president biden has been in contact with both the state's governor and head of fema since the wildfires broke out, but before that, the president of south korea and prime minister

of japan will meet with president biden at camp david tomorrow. there the trio will announce plans to expand defensive cooperation between their nations amid an increase in threats by north korea and rising tensions with china. it marks an important moment for president biden who will host the talks but also for south korea and japan which only recently agreed to fully return to an intel-sharing pact among their militaries. tensions between the two countries date back more than 100 years centering on japan's brutal occupation of the korean peninsula. >> let's bring in richard haass. obviously history will look kindly on joe biden, what he's done in being first among equals with his nato partners and helping nato and helping europe

move forward. expand that coalition to the strongest it's ever been. but the fact that they've been promising to have the asian pivot. now we have joe biden flexing america's might from guam to the philippines to south korea to japan to australia, it's really quite something that he is finally doing what the last four presidents have promised to do. >> this is a big deal. the hallmark of the biden foreign policy, you might say, we've gone from america first to alliance first, obviously the coordination on behalf of ukraine and europe, now bringing this together, this is a real quiet success for american diplomacy as mika said in the introduction, japan and south korea were at serious, serious loggerheads over how to deal with the past, a lot of quiet

work has gone into this because politically so sensitive for the leadership of both countries, but this is a powerful message to china, a powerful message to north korea which continues to build up its missile forces and its nuclear forces and, yes, there will be probably greater military planning and exercises and it's important to get everybody on the same page to deal with taiwan contingencies and deal with economic security issues but hopefully will coordinate diplomacy and the only issue i take with you slightly is now the real challenge for the administration is to back this up with increased american military presence and capability in this part of the world so we're setting the diplomatic table really well. we've got to make sure we have the capabilities to back it up. >> well, and, richard, let's talk about china. obviously this -- the flexing of our diplomatic muscles there

eventually just to protect our allies in the region from china's expansion, that's going to cause complications with china, but let's just talk about the united states' strength and china's strength right now. you know, not so long ago that everybody was talking about the rise of china was going to eclipse the united states and right now you read "the new york times" article two days ago, they say economists have two great fears moving forward, one, the collapse of the chinese economy or at least the stagnation of it and the fact that the u.s. economy may be too strong, it may grow too quickly, rekindle inflation. you combine that with what's happening diplomatically around china right now and things have changed quite dramatically and that power dynamic between the two superpowers. >> no argument. for a long time the whole framing of china was china was

ten feet tall. look, for 30 years china was growing at double digits in terms of their gdp increase every year, it was a phenomenal accomplishment. for lots of reasons that slowed. more than anything is because of chinese policy. china wants to benefit from a market economy without having a market economy and put political controls over their economy first, economic growth is suffering, so, joe, i think the real question is what does xi jinping do as public discontent grows? does he stay the course? does he change course or try to change the conversation? that's what links it to the summit at camp david. if he tries to change the conversation to basically say, i'm going to legitimize my leadership and chinese leadership, no longer with economic growth, but rather with satisfying chinese nationalism to put pressure on taiwan, that's when the united states, japan and south korea are going to be tested. so, this is what is happening right now. again, we've been focused on

europe but a lot of history is beginning to unfold in asia and this is the part of the world with -- this is where the people are. this is where the wealth is. in many ways the 21st century will be decided here, which, again, which is why what's going on at camp david is so significant. >> yeah, richard, to that point i was speaking to an administration official yesterday who made a compelling case this is one of the biden administration's defining achievements sort of under the radar for now but will eventually in history be regarded as such. i want to get your take on another piece of that conversation i had with that official who said that one thing that keeps up the leaders in washington and tokyo up at night is figuring out where xi jinping goes, the limits to his relationship with vladimir putin. at a certain point does he decide enough is enough or does he feel like it's in his interest to at least prop russia up there to keep it as a bulwark to the west for china. what's your sense, the people you talk to, what their thinking

may be? >> my own guess based on who i've talked to they haven't decided and put certain ceilings on this support for russia and providing dual use technology and don't seem to be providing military equipment. the test will come if and when there's diplomacy that's active, will china use its leverage with russia to press putin to compromise. >> we don't know the answer to that but i think that will be a revealing moment and i don't know if we're 6 or 18 months away interest that but that day is going to come. >> richard haass, thank you very much for coming on with your insight this morning. >> richard, any golf tournaments coming up? he's wearing green. i'm just wondering. >> the fedexcup being played so that's happening so these are the dog days of august. i'm happy to talk to you about my golf game, joe. we can go on at great lengths and destroy the ratings. >> so here's the deal, i haven't golfed now in, god, how many years, mika. >> many. >> four or five years.

and i was not good when i did. but how is your golf game going, richard, as president emeritus of the cfr? >> i had a rough few days, shot an 86 this week so i'm feeling better, joe. the handicap is high. >> what is it? >> now a 13. my goal in life besides now that i've become president emeritus is to get down to single digits. i'll give you progress reports. >> you could just lie about it like donald trump. >> i was told that mark cuban on that "shark tank" show, he was talking to some people and he asked one of the people he was about to invest in what they did, i'm trying for a triathlon and he said, i'm out. anybody that is training for a triathlon is spending too much time worrying about that -- i always said growing up, i don't

say this anymore because i've grown, i always said, never trust a man with, like, a handicap in the single digits because he's not going to work hard enough on your team. >> okay. >> but you're -- i don't mean that to all you -- >> we're going to break now. you're messing up the show. >> you deserve a single handicap. >> thank you. >> is it your long game, your short game? what do you need to work on, richard? >> the long irons, fairway woods, but, joe, the key to getting it down is not what you do, what you avoid. you want to avoid any drives out of bounds and avoid three-putts, want to avoid double bogeys, if you do that you will have a single digit handicap. >> so can i ask you this question, richard, because i'm old school, and so i haven't played since everybody started using these little woods for their long irons, i believe, if

you're going to hit a 2 or 3 iron you hit them. but there's all these hybrids. >> rescue clubs or hybrids. >> are you old school -- >> i like long irons and feel comfortable hitting a 3 or 4 iron. >> okay. >> when you have a club in your hand, richard, i'm curious, is there a certain club you have in your hand that you feel most comfortable with? >> joe -- >> so much of golf is in your head and pick up, for instance, if i pick up a 4 iron or 7 iron when i'm playing, i don't think. i feel comfortable with it, not so with a 5 iron. what's your go to club. >> 6 iron. when it trouble, 6 iron. >> okay. richard haass, thank you. you need to zip it. you just blew through a commercial break for two minutes of stupidity that nobody needed. >> i don't think that's true. >> richard haass, good-bye. it's now the top of the hour. >> can i ask you, richard -- >> it is thursday, august 17th.

jonathan lemire and reverend al sharpton are still with us and joining the conversation we have former u.s. senator now nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill, hi, claire and host of "on brand with donny deutsch." i will be nice but do not goad joe right now. okay, we'll get to our top story. >> joe, so when you said -- >> good. his sound doesn't work. >> explain that. >> can't hear him. >> seriously, what are you using? what are you using a paper cup, donny? can we fix that? >> that was mine. we did that. thank you -- >> can i ask, claire. do you ever play golf? have you ever played golf before? >> i've never had time to play golf. >> thank you. >> there you go. >> don't you look at that game, claire and, go, really? like, you have the time to hit

that little ball and then walk all the way to it and then hit it again trying to get it into a hole? i don't get golf. i don't get the time it takes to play golf. it is -- it's -- it makes no sense to me. literally i watch it in awe of who would have the patience to play that sport. >> claire, your response, please? >> well, listen, i have a lot of people i love that love golf, so i get -- >> same here. >> it must be addictive in some ways, but in my career with children and a full time job, the idea that i would take three or four hours out of a weekend to walk around -- >> no. >> i take my kids on a walk, but so i never took the time to learn it or to play it because it is very, very time consuming. >> thank you.

>> i will say with like, you know, four kids, four hours of tv, it is -- i just don't have the time right now. >> you can't do it, no. >> i am curious, jonathan lemire, everybody is talking about this pickleball thing and i've never played pickleball. >> my friend jackie loves it. >> do you play pickleball? >> she has a pickleball court. >> is this a thing now that everybody should do because you can do it quickly and you don't have to run around a lot? >> yeah, i mean, that's the appeal. first of all, i don't golf. little mini golf with the kid, that's it but pickleball, i play just once or twice with the windmills, i can get through those. the ones you put up on the hill but if you miss it, it goes back down the hill, that's a 6 for me every time. >> it's heartbreaking. >> but pickleball is a phenomenon right now. some think a plague. there have been amusing stories written about how neighborhoods, people have complained because they think pickleball is too loud and, therefore, it's

driving property values down and can't relax because of the thwacking of the ball. i do play ping-pong. >> yes. >> yes. >> i like to play some pickleball. >> not very good. >> well -- >> don't say that about him. >> not very good. >> jonathan lemire, best of seven series. best of seven series last year. he was like the new york yankees, he went 3-0 then he let me win. >> wait a minute. those are hurtful words, joe. >> we wasted so much time. >> i think people care deeply about our pickleball and ping-pong habits. donny deutsch, before we get into the news, i'm going to be serious here. you did something -- i saw a clip -- can we still hear him? i'll ask anyway really quickly. >> maybe ask him a yes, no question. >> i saw a clip four years ago predicting what would eventually take donald trump down would be

the rico statute. everybody is like, what, what, but you were predicting that, you said southern district which was a good -- >> obvious thought. >> yeah. >> but you were right. the lawyers i talk to who said they weren't sure about whether he would get convicted on january 6th stuff really think this georgia rico case is going to take the whole criminal enterprise down if there is one. >> yeah, i mean, you've talked so many on the show, years and years ago i kind of -- i spoke to a prosecutor and nobody is talking rico and makes understanding everything i few about trump complete sense. as you mentioned i thought the southern district, but this is the one, and, you know, this is so crystal clear what he's going down with is this rico charge, it is basically that the essence of it is that if you're in the organization, what everybody did

was wrong even if you didn't do it yourself, you were in the middle of it and everybody goes down together and i was ahead of that one. >> well, let's get to our top story then, fulton county district attorney fani willis is asking that the georgia election interference trial begin on march 4th of next year. just one day before the key super tuesday primary contest. in a new court filing she says she chose that date to make room for former president trump's several other pending legal cases. march 4th would be 2 1/2 months before trump's federal classified documents case in florida and three weeks before the trial start date for the manhattan hush money case. it is also two months after the proposed start date for the federal election interference case against trump out of d.c. and that same filing willis asked that all arraignments for the 19 named defendants in the

case be scheduled for the week of september 5th. everyone charged has until august 25th to complete their booking voluntarily. in fulton county defendants must complete their booking at the county jail. that includes taking a mug shot and fingerprinting, arraignments are then typically done separately, judges occasionally wave arraignment appearances or hold them virtually, there is no confirmation yet on which route the former president will take. >> it will be fascinating news. >> yeah. >> i'm sorry. >> it's just interesting. explain to me next friday's date versus what is happening september 5th. >> well, we'll have clarity of that because she actually knows what she's talking about but i can talk to you about golf and pickleball. or whatever it's called. >> i want to hear about this. >> claire, i want to talk about date, court dates, because, like, for instance in the

january 6th case, seems to me that's the most straightforward case, more straightforward than the docs case because of the classified dox and that takes sorting through. i can see the january th case going to trial early spring. i suspect it will unless something dramatic happens but i don't see how fani willis gets anywhere near that march 4th date with, what, 19 co-defendants. do you? >> well, it will be interesting to see, you know, this is a new judge, relatively new judge but a judge who spent some time in the fulton county district attorney's office so he understands, and, remember, joe, for most state court, cases go to trial pretty quickly compared to federal cases. federal cases, they're investigated longer. they typically don't go as quickly as state cases do, so,

but, remember, that march date she's asking for, that won't be the beginning of the trial. that would be the beginning of jury selection and she right now, her office is in the middle of a jury selection on a gang rico case that has taken months and months and it will be hard. it will be hard for them to find a jury because they have got to really dig down with every single potential jury person in terms of their social media accounts, in terms of their political history, they've got to look and try to find people who can legitimately put aside either their animus towards donald trump or their support of donald trump and just listen to the facts. >> wow. all right. where we are right now with four indictments, we have new polling showing how americans view the serious legal issues surrounding donald trump and their impact on

the presidential race. in the latest ap/norc center survey, nearly two-thirds of adult, that's 64% say they would probably or definitely not support trump if he is the republican nominee next year. overall, 62% view the former president unfavorably compared to 33% who view him favorably. as for the four pending cases against him, just 15% of americans are buying the ex-president's claims that he did nothing illegal in the georgia case and also when it comes to his hoarding of nuclear secrets. 53% also say they approve of the decision to indict trump in the federal election interference case. in a new fox news poll, shows the majority of voters think donald trump broke the law in his efforts to stay in power following the 2020 election. in the survey, 53% say his

actions after the vote were illegal. that includes 62% of independents who believe he broke the law. so, at this point, joe, you just wonder if this is what breaks some candidates and republican leaders who are serving right now in the u.s. congress and still shilling for president trump who has four indictments and two other legal cases pending against him. >> right. >> really, all of them, all like 81 or 91 counts, every single thing he's innocent of, really? >> well, they don't think that. they will try to decision tract and say hunter biden got $7 million. so, claire, i want to go back to you because you've done something that none of us have done. you have won elections in a swing state and now decidedly red state. but these numbers are so telling.

64% say they will not support donald trump. i first learned of this poll when a republican operative, a longtime republican operative tweeted it out last night and said, folks, we have got to move away from this guy. he is going to destroy us. 64% definitely/probably wouldn't vote for donald trump next year. you look at the fox news poll, 53% think what he did was illegal, 62% of independents, 62% of independents think what he did was illegal. 22% didn't think it was illegal. but that it was unethical. so, claishgs give me -- is this the beginning of -- i won't say the end of donald trump but at least the beginning of the polls shifting in a way that begins to wake some republicans up, that actually might want to run a

competitive race next year against joe biden? >> yeah, let me make a couple points here. the first one is, i think it's important to also overlay this poll with the reality that more people are identifying as independents in america today. when i used to run for office, it was pretty reliable that it was a third, a third, a third, one-third republican, one-third independent, one-third democrat. if you look at the gallup polls over this last year, it is hovering around 25 republican, almost 50% independent and 25 democrat. so, not only is this really bad news for the republicans in a general election, it's worse than it seems on its face because the independent sector is growing. now, the other point i want to make is, keep in mind that 52% of the republicans in this poll say he did nothing wrong. 52% in a republican primary that has a number of people in it

makes donald trump the winner. and keep in mind that most of these members of congress are running in districts where a democrat could not win, so this is all about their primary elections. it's all about the people running for president trying not to alienate 53% of their party as they are trying to grab 20%, 30%, maybe 35% of the vote in order to get across the finish line. so, those are the two things that play here. the final thing i want to say, if the republican party has anybody to blame for why they are in this mess that they are handcuffed in a position where they have to play to this base of their party when all of the facts are telling most of america they are way, way out of bounds here, it is this, they have refused to have the courage, they're lilly-livered cowards and not had the courage to stand up and say, donald

trump did things wrong, the law is working. we need to back off and let the law work. there are serious allegations here. no, doj hasn't been weaponized. no, fani willis is not a partisan. this is real stuff. they won't do that, so it's their own fault they're going to go down in flames because if they had, they wouldn't be this this position right now. >> well, and they are -- great points. >> the best person for that is mike pence who is starting to, you can only hope. >> they are in that position now for several reasons, claire nailed it on so many of those points. also, just structurally, this is what gerrymandering brings you. you have people that are in districts that are so red, are so blue that they can't speak to where 62%, 64% of the country is. they're talking to the most intense partisans in their own

gerrymandered districts, so they just keep, you know, following the company line for donald trump despite the fact it damages the republican party. it damages the senate candidates as we saw in '22 and in '20, it damages the presidential candidates as we saw in '20. and so it also -- this also is really going to hurt those candidates that are in the districts that joe biden won and then they won in '22. i say it's going to hurt them. it depends on how agile they are but they can't blindly support a candidate that's 64% of independents actually think did something illegal, so they're put in a difficult place. so this is from the ap poll, the quinnipiac poll, the fox poll and now, jonathan lemire, i understand you have the results of an abc news poll that was

just released a few minutes ago. >> joe, we officially have a trend. you are right, the abc news poll out just in the last 10 or 15 minutes says that a majority of americans, 63% believe that the charges against trump in georgia, those election interference charges are either serious or somewhat serious. 63%. that's in line with 65% of americans in the same poll believe the federal election interference charges are also serious and this is now a lot of disturbing numbers for the former president piling up, reverend sharpton. also one other number jumped out at me in this new abc poll, 50%, fully half of americans, 50% think that donald trump should suspend his presidential campaign because of all the legal problems he's facing. >> and i think that last part is the most devastating, when you have half of those polls saying he ought not even be in the race and you have the majority of his opponents acting like he is

still something that should be a respected person in the race shows how far out of sync they are with their own following and comes from really asking who they are. i mean, joe and i talk a lot about how at one point, mrs. coretta scott king said you have to identify as you grow nationally, al, who you are and sometimes you have to go against the louder voices in your crowd to say, this is who i am. they show no real insight, conviction that they are against the criminality as well as the demagoguery of donald trump and it will lead to their demise. >> yeah, and there are two realities here, there's the reality, and, again, it's a murdoch paper if you want to read the reality, "the wall street journal" news section, if you want to read the ap, reuters, forget about "the new york times" if you don't like "the times" or msnbc, forget about that.

go to just, again, go to "the wall street journal." >> go to legitimate news operations. >> right, but the problem is, if you listen to republican candidates, if you listen to people on other news channels at times that are talking about this, some are really good and straightforward but a lot of the others present an alternative reality that is really -- it doesn't harm me. doesn't harm mika. doesn't harm -- >> well -- >> doesn't harm claire mccaskill. it harms the republican party because they keep losing because they're in an alternative reality. something i've been talking about for years, and this is really -- it's getting more dramatic here. >> it is dramatic. >> will they continue? will tim scott tomorrow with 62% of independents saying that what he did was illegal, with a majority of americans saying what he did was illegal, with

fox news polls saying, 53% saying it was illegal with half of americans saying he should suspend his campaign, will somebody running against him tomorrow when asked say, when 63% of americans say these charges are serious in georgia and 65% say they're serious in -- on the january 6th case, will republican candidates for president when asked whether it's serious or not agree with the 65% or will they just blabber about the -- what do they call it -- the weaponization. nobody believes that. like, people in the bubble believe that. >> yeah. >> so that's not the way forward to victory. that's the way forward to me saying, next year they lost in '17, they lost in '18, they lost in '19, they lost in '20,

they lost in '21, they lost in '22, they lost in '23. do you want that? do you want to keep losing for a guy who won't sign a loyalty pledge to you? i don't understand. >> he won't pay his attorneys. i just don't know why -- those attorneys are not stupid and they know his -- anyhow, we get sidetracked. i do think it's dangerous and do think to claire's point, that members of the media, those hosts on fox news who have been pushing trump's lies or newsmax or whatever and definitely presidential candidates or those serving in congress right now, this is the moment, look at these polls. look at this and read it. just read it. just read it, okay, and you know where this is going. if you have a brain, if you had half a brain you know where this is going. it is a good time to stand up for the constitution and for our democracy and in the process you might even make america a little

safer, because this is going in the wrong direction when you look at threats towards judges and names being put out there of grand jurors, this is not going in the right direction in terms of political violence and hate speech. >> well, i understand that. and, by the way, so that's what ought to be. >> uh-huh. >> as one of my law professors used to say, you have what ought to be and you have what is. mika is saying what ought to be. let me say, though, if you don't care about that, let me talk to you about what is, what is the reality. continue down this pathway and you will continue losing. so this is not about some like left wing lib, right? 95% lifetime acu rating, when i was in congress, this is me saying to you, if you want to turn government over to democrats and the left for the rest of your adult life, keep

doing this. if you actually want some conservatives that actually start winning some national races, you need to turn away from a guy who's never been conservative. it's pretty simple. >> ever. a new piece in "the atlantic" is taking a critical look at former vice president mike pence's presidential campaign. specifically author jonathan v. last asked the question, why does he think the people who wanted to kill him will vote for him? and he writes in part, quote, if mike pence were to walk through a crowd, the crowd at a donald trump rally, for instance, the recent giant event where 50,000 trump supporters swamped the town of pickens, south carolina, he would need a security detail. he would not be safe without one and he might not be safe with one either. in fact, i have a hard time believing that any secret

service team would agree to go along with such an excursion. enough trump supporters hate pence that much. remember, of course, january 6th they wanted to hang him. it turns out that pence doesn't quite know what to do with himself either. so he's trying his luck at becoming the avatar of the same voters who wanted to hang him. joining us now the author of that piece and editor of "the bulwark," jonathan v. last and jonathan lemire has the first question as the author of "the big lie". >> great to see you. there was a clip that went viral over the weekend, mike pence at the iowa state fair and a guy came up to him and said, well, i guess i'm glad we didn't hang you, which is trying to be darkly funny but underscores just the situation that he's in, and the struggle that he has trying to win over some of those voters. it does seem in the last week or so he's found his voice stronger

condemning what trump did, the latest out of georgia but is in an impossible dynamic. how would you chart his path forward? >> my buddy wrote a piece suggesting that the reason pence is running isn't because he thinks he can win, but because he's trying to sort of validate his place in history because he thinks -- i think not unreasonably -- when the trump moment is finally over pence will actually in a weird way, his actions on january 6th will come to, you know, paint him as one of the great heroes. i kind of agree with that but i'd ask you this, jonathan, other jonathan, in all seriousness if mike pence were running in the democratic primary against joe biden, do you think he would be polling more or less than the 2% he's got right now in the republican average? because i honestly think he'd be polling a point or two higher in the democratic primary than he is in the republican primary. >> yeah, i mean, he might be.

he's certainly -- at the very least democrats that believe in the constitution and rule of law who would be grateful for his performance. let's have a hypothetical and say donald trump does show up on the debate wednesday night next week and mike pence has a chance to stand across the stage from his former running mate, what would pence say to trump in that moment with the eyes of the nation on him? >> yeah, i think he would look at trump and say something, some version of, you know, we were great partners for four years, mr. president, and i have all the respect in the world for you, but what you did on that day was so out of character and so dangerous and we really can't do that again. this is -- look, those of us who watched the last seven years would say, oh, come on. it's not like the january 6th donald trump was some, you know, mr. hyde after the dr. jekyll of good trump. that's ridiculous but at least pence is willing to go that far,

right, and the rest of the republican field with the honorable exceptions of asa hutchinson and chris christie and sometimes will hurd, depends on which day of the week it is for will hurd. the rest aren't willing to do it. you will have the debate next wednesday. trump won't be there and most of the republicans on that stage are going to be making his defenses for him in absentia. you are talking about how is it possible donald trump is winning with all this? there are a couple of reasons, first of all, it's much more important for them to control the republican party than political power. that's -- they need to own the house they live in, but secondly, you look at them. their voters go to the cross tabs on their polls. their own voters are so wildly out of sync with the rest of the country that it's very, very hard for them to stand up there and say, no, actually these things are really serious. like the dude broke the law, like 91 times. >> jonathan, al sharpton.

following up on the point you made earlier, is some of the motivation of mike pence since you say he's not going to win and he probably knows he's not going to win the nomination, is some of it that he sees this disaster coming with these four cases and what it will do to not only donald trump and some of his co-defendants, but the party and he's trying to distance himself in history from i was not part of that cabal and i, in fact, tried to stand up. is he trying to redeem himself that he doesn't go out with the debris that is inevitably going to happen after these trials. >> yeah, absolutely. and, you know, this is a weird -- the tragedy of mike pence, think about this, reverend, right, so he was brought onto the ticket to seal the deal with christian evangelical voters who were still slightly skeptical of trump and fast forward to six

years later and with all of -- with everything we saw about trump, now when evangelical voters are given the choice between mike pence who everybody says is, like, whatever you want to say about him, like is an actual god-fearing christian and donald trump who is donald trump, the 91 indictments, the evangelical voters, you saw this at like the faith forum in iowa a few weeks ago with tucker, they have to choose between trump and pence, they say -- it's the craziest thing and pence is trying to salvage themself from him. >> editor of "the bulwark," jonathan v. last for being on this morning and still ahead on "morning joe," a new warning about regulating the use of artificial intelligence tools before it's too late, plus, as donald trump relies on political donors to foot the bill for his mounting legal fees. steve rattner joins us with charts on how trump's legal battles are affecting his

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let's start by talking about the impacts of donald trump's dimes on his fund-raising. it's interesting. if you look over here, these are google searches and you can see that after the manhattan indictment, his searches on google shot way, way up to an index number of 100, pretty much as high as it can go then you can see a bump during the jean carroll thing then the documents indictment, much less of a bump in his google searches and then january 6th, also much less of a bump. but interestingly his fund-raising has tracked this to a considerable -- he raised $14 million over this period but it did trail off. he only raised $6 million after the documents indictment and we don't know yet about the other two, but at least the initial rush of donors to him over that faded. when you look at the impact on his total fund-raising he raised $54 million during this period, the first half of this year, 20

million of it came in the wake of those two sets of indictments, so the indictments have been a big part on the revenue side, if you will, of his finances of his campaign. >> certainly, steve, a flurry of emails soliciting donations have come out from the campaign after the georgia indictment. but that's the money he's raised but also had to spend quite a bit. your second chart is about the legal fees and how they're draining the campaign's coffers. >> yeah, so that's kind of interesting. he has actually been paying not only his legal fees but for a bunch of his team out of his campaign finances and would probably be interesting for a donor to trump to know that 50 cents of every dollar he raised in the first half of this year went to paid legal fees. if you difficult money to donald trump, half of it roughly for the last six months has been his legal defense fund and half to his campaign. over time his legal bills have been mounting quarter by quarter

6 to 8 to 12 to 15 million. his fund-raising did drop a bit. it was higher in the second quarter of this year. we'll see how that falls out but then it's had a pretty big impact on his cash on hand. he went from $114 million of cash at the beginning of last year, most of this in one of his pacs all the way down to 63 million at the moment. but this pac of his, his main pac has literally gone down to $5 million of cash so his cash coffers have come down a good bit as he's paid his legal bills and some money for his campaign. >> so, these donors must really be supportive of donald trump being so wilk to pay his legal bills, claire mccaskill. you have the next question. >> yeah, steve, did you have a chance to look at the two categories of fund-raising? i like to call it one category is checks with commas in them and the other category is 20 bucks online.

how big has the exodus been from trump from people who write big checks and how dependent is he on the low donors, the $5, the $10, the people who give him constantly small amounts? >> unfortunately, i don't have those numbers yet but i have some other numbers that are also interesting relative to his fund-raising. go back to his 2019 campaign, trump raised in just the second quarter that when he announced in 2019 over $100 million, a combination of small donor, big donors and various committees. this time around, he's raised just a bit over $40 million even if you include the rnc and his money so his fund-raising at least so far in this cycle is a good bit less than it was last time. now, that said, of course, his fund-raising relative to the other republicans is still much stronger, 35 million raised in the second quarter versus 20 for

desantis and much less for scott and so forth. what the latest set will be on his fund-raising, his polling numbers have stayed quite strong. these are polling averages. he did get that bump after the new york indictment but since then he's actually flat lined even as desantis has lost 10 percentage points of his popularity which has gone to some of the bottom tier candidates. so it will be an interesting question to see and your interesting polls from a few minutes ago, interesting to see whether his popularity or lack of popularity affects his fund-raising as he goes forward but clearly his fund-raising and campaign finances are not going as well as they did last time and in part because he's spending so much of his donors' money that they think is going to his campaign on his legal bills. >> i was being sarcastic when i said his donors are so general rougs that they'd pay his legal

bills. steve rattner, thank you very much. coming up, an iconic movie scene from 55 years ago predicted the dangers of artificial intelligence. >> open the pod bay doors, hal. >> i'm sorry, dave. i'm afraid i can't do that. >> what's the problem? >> i think you know what the problem is just as well as i do. >> what are you talking about, hal? >> this mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it. >> i don't know what you're talking about, hal. >> i know that you and frank were planning to disconnect me and i'm afraid that's something i cannot allow to happen. >> the clip from 2001, "a space odyssey" could be part of what our next guest calls the a.i. power paradox. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe."

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there is new evidence that shows the fake electors' plat was in the works before he lost the election. "the beat with ari mel der" aired footage last night of roger stone dictating an outline of the plot to his assistant that was then supposed to be sent to a group chat on the signal app. it was recorded by danish filmmaker christopher goldbrinson making a documentary about stone. here is part of that video. >> the final decision as to who

the state legislatures authorize be sent to the electoral college is a decision made solely by the legislature. we must be prepared to lobby our republican legislatures. >> he says that clip was recorded on november 5th, 2020, which was two days before joe biden was officially declared the winner of the election. also a month before trump lawyer ken chesebro wrote his memo outlining that very plot using a false slate of electors from multiple states. claire, i mean, the indictment

lays out an enterprise, this is the fulton county indictment and that video strikes me as potentially very important. >> it says clearly what we know, they were all engaged in trying to defy the will of the american voter. and i've had misdemeanor disappointments in life, i was -- i got a great thrill when i read rudy giuliani's name in the georgia indictment, but i am disappointed that roger stone has not been indicted anywhere. there's a guy that deserves it. i mean, how does sidney powell get indicted and he doesn't get indicted? >> i don't know. i mean -- >> maybe he's cooperating. maybe he flipped. one can hope that maybe he's flipped. >> that's interesting. coming up, will a.i. soon be

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beautiful, very stormy looking shot of new york city at 51 past the hour. president biden calls it one of the most significant laws that has ever been enacted. yesterday marked the one-year anniversary of the passage of the inflation reduction act. the legislation is a signature piece of the biden administration's economic agenda. the president celebrated the milestone at an event in the east room of the white house where he was introduced by the ceo of ge, a company that

benefitted from the ira. >> this law was one of the biggest drivers of job and economic growth this country has ever seen. since i took office, the private sector's announced nearly 400 -- excuse me. $240 billion in clean money manufacturing investment. $240 billion invested. [ applause ] the law has already created an estimated 170,000 clean energy jobs. in one year, it's submitted that it will -- that will go to 1.5 million more jobs over the next decade. first is one year. now we're talking about the decade. >> all right, and democratic senator dianne feinstein of california is suing the trustees of her late husband's estate. in a lawsuit filed on behalf of the 90-year-old senator, her daughter alleges the trustees have failed to pay the millions of dollars that she's due.

nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nevilles has the details. >> reporter: dianne feinstein already facing public questions about her age and health, now at the center of a personal lawsuit filed on her behalf by her daughter, katherine, aimed at the trustees of her late husband's estate. despite actively serving in the u.s. senate, feinstein's daughter acting as her power of attorney. the suit accuses the trustees of financial elder abuse, claiming they are withholding the funds the senator is entitled to. feinstein's husband, richard bloom died last year. the billionaire established a trust for his wife in his will that was designed to provide regular payments after he passed. the suit accuses the trustees of not properly funding the trust or providing feinstein with her entitled income. attorneys for the trustees fired back saying in a statement, quote, the trustees have acted ethically and appropriately at all times. the same cannot be said for

katherine feinstein. this filing is unconscionable. the new legal challenge adds to a growing bitter battle between feinstein and her late husband's family. she's filed two similar lawsuits asking for access to her husband's fortune and one claim filed saying, quote, she had significant medical issues as a result of her issues. she missed three months of work in the senate while recovering from a bout with shingles. she was briefly hospitalized last week after a fall, and at times appeared to not understand her duties in the senate. >> just say aye. >> okay, just -- >> okay. aye. >> she's not alone in facing questions around her age. gop leader mitch mcconnell recently froze during a press conference leading to concerns around his leadership. >> we're really good people, both sides of the aisle. they're just a shell of what they former were, but the voters

know that. >> claire mccaskill, so obviously now there's this legal battle taking place, but overall, i think the issue is age, and when do fellow senators step in or what do you think -- do you think anything should be done as it pertains to dianne feinstein remaining in her senate seat? >> you know, i -- this whole story makes me incredibly sad. it makes me -- >> me too. >> and frankly, i don't think the dianne feinstein i knew would have brought a lawsuit. i do think that there is the power of attorney is in her -- it's with her daughter, and -- >> yeah. >> who knows what the -- i mean, i'm in a part of a blended family, mika. you are too. you know there's challenges with

a blended family, but foremost for my blended family and i'm sure it is for yours too, we continue to try to communicate and talk to each other and get along even when there's bumps in the road and that's the dianne feinstein i knew. i think she would have never wanted this to be a public fight like this, and as to those who say, hey, i watched robert bird be kind of a caricature of what he had been, and i served with him for years, you know, his staff was holding him hand up, down, or up when they would wheel him in, and, you know, just because others did it doesn't mean it's a good idea, and this is doing damage to her legacy which is extraordinary as a united states senator. >> her legacy is remarkable, and it just -- just to add to what you were saying, it feels like this is a time, and i've definitely gone through this,

where the family needs to step in and help and it doesn't seem like that's happening. i'll leave it right there. still ahead, a slew of new polling is taking a look at how americans view the serious legal issues surrounding former president trump. we'll dig into the numbers and what they could mean for the presidential race. plus, new reporting about how trump supporters are targeting members of the fulton county grand jury that indicted the former president and his 18 co-defendants. nbc's ken dilanian has the details ahead on "morning joe."

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election case. we'll have the disturbing details on that. meanwhile, a trump ally who's been off the radar for a while is making headlines this morning. we'll show you the video of roger stone that could do serious damage to the claims from trump's legal team. >> i saw it on ari melber last night. >> it's staggering. >> it's staggering. he's actually before the election's called. >> mapping it out. >> he's mapping out the entire -- the entire conspiracy. >> the enterprise. >> that they followed to undermine the election and to take votes away from the voters and have republican trump family state legislators steal states for donald trump, and they follow that road map. what's fascinating is again, he did this before. >> before. >> before the election was

called. we'll have that for you. also a significant show of solidarity from allies in the pacific. we'll explain the major meeting happening tomorrow at camp david. with us, we have the host of "way too early," chief at politico, and author of "the big lie," jonathan lemere, host of "politics nation," reverend al sharpton, and founder of the bull work, charlie sykes is with us this morning. let's start with new polling on how americans view the serious legal issues surrounding donald trump and their impact on the presidential race. despite strong support among republican voters, new numbers show trump's criminal charges could spell trouble for him in a general election. >> that's an understatement actually. >> we have a lot of legal issues to get to pertaining to all of this, but first, the politics of it seems to be playing out. in the latest ap/norc survey,

two-thirds of adults, 64% say they would probably or definitely not support trump if he is the republican nominee next year. overall, 62% view the former president unfavorably compared to 33% who view him favorably. as for the four pending cases against him, just 15% of americans are buying the ex-president's claims that he did nothing illegal in the georgia case, and when it comes to his hoarding of nuclear secrets, on contrary, 53% say his actions were illegal. 53% also say they approve of the decision to indict trump in the federal election interference case. >> so we have a number of polls here. >> there's more coming. >> dan had suggested that he break these up beforehand and i thought -- >> there are so many.

>> there's so much to get to there before we even get to the fox news poll, but charlie sykes, this is what republicans have quietly been panicking about. you look at these numbers. 64% -- jonathan lemere, we'll go to you, 64% in the ap poll. 64% say they're not going to support trump next year. i actually saw people connected with mitch mcconnell and other republicans tweeting that out. this is devastating. i mean, that's who the republicans are moving towards putting up. he has a 33% approval rating, a favorable rating in that poll. the majority believe what he did was illegal, and there are so many other polls that came out yesterday that are showing the same thing, independents breaking dramatically away from

donald trump. independents saying he should have been indicted. independents saying overwhelmingly that what he did was illegal, and you look at the -- it's strange that -- to me at least, but actually the georgia case, voters are more hostile toward him on the georgia case than actually election interference where still, 47% say what he did was illegal and additionally said it was unethical, but the georgia case and the classified documents case, those two cases look like the strongest which is exactly what andy mccarthy wrote about in the "new york post" a couple of days ago that it's those classified docs and the georgia election interference cases that are going to cause him the most trouble probably legally and politically. >> well, that's is same view held in trump world, that those are the two cases all along they

have been most concerned about, in part, because they're the easiest to understand. americans even who are not paying that much attention, who sometimes get lost in the -- there's a steady stream of headlines that emanate from donald j. trump, they get the idea that you shouldn't have nuclear secrets at your golf club in florida. they also have heard the phone call in which he's pushing the secretary of state of georgia, brad raffensperger to find him the votes he needs to win. they get that. that resonates. that breaks through, and the poll is startling, joe. going through a little bit more here, there are 54% of people polled saying donald trump threatened the very idea of democracy. only 19% say he defended it, and among the general populations. this is both parties. 64% of americans -- 64% of americans say they will definitely or probably not support trump in 2024. that only leaves you with 36%. you can't win an election with 36%. so this is, as much as trump has tightened his grip on the

republican party and while he is far and away ahead in the gop primary field, these are general election numbers. these are general election numbers that not only would spell a loss for donald trump, but drag down the rest of the ticket too, and that's why there are a lot of republicans panicking that they could lose the house and the senate would be their chance to retake the senate, and that would be jeopardized if trump's name is atop the ballot. >> we have been very careful not to draw any conclusions on where republicans are going to go just because it's been so impossible to figure that out over the past six, seven years. my former party, and we will see, charlie sykes, for me, this is feeling a lot like june of 1974, leading up to nixon's resignation in august. trump will not back out, but i tell the story repeatedly of my father when i'm trying to get my arms around how they're staying with donald trump, and i remember my own dad staying with

nixon until the very end and then reading the transcripts of the tapes and saying, that guy is unworthy to be president. you look at these numbers. i mean, 64% of americans saying they're not going to support trump. his approval rating at 33%, 54% saying he threatened democracy itself. 18% saying maybe he strengthened it. his unfavorable views exploding in, you know, continuing to go up, and then you look at these actions -- classified documents the majority say what he did was illegal, and georgia election interference, 51% say it was illegal. 13% say unethical. only 15% -- only 15% of americans -- let's underline this. only 15% agree with donald trump that he did nothing wrong.

only 15% of americans agree with donald trump that he did nothing wrong in the classified documents case. only 14% of americans say he did nothing wrong in the hush money case. of course, that is by far, for good reason the weakest case, but these numbers, it sure seems like they're moving in one direction and charlie, the bad news for him is the more people find out about these cases, the worse news it is for donald trump. >> yeah. there ought to be a stunning reality check, and that will find out if the republican party continues to be immune to reality. at the end of the magical thinking among republicans, something, something, something unicorn was going to come along and take care of donald trump that they didn't have to do it, that somebody else would take care of the problem, you know, that sense that they could

amplify and rationalize and defend him, and somehow run against him for president. look. this is this moment where we have all of the major indictments that have come down, and yet republican voters continue to rally around him. so there's the challenge. what does mike pence do? what does ron desantis do? what does glenn youngkin do? are they going to continue to go along with this sort of, you know, same old, same old conventional wisdom? we have to humor him. remember that quote after the election, what harm would it be to humor him? we'll continue to echo his comments about the weaponization of the justice system, but as you're pointing out, there are these giant reality checks out there saying, republicans do know what you are about to do, you know, we keep talking about these focus groups of trump voters and what people are saying in diners in west virginia. take a step back, and you realize you have more than 60% of americans who say, no. we are done with donald trump.

we're not going to vote for donald trump. that ought to be really the ultimate reality check for republican voters and leaders right now. >> well, we were joking yesterday about chuck rosenberg, about how mika wanted to talk to me about, like, somebody was saying on another cable news channel. >> thought it was important, you know, what other people are saying. >> 7:30, 8:00 at night. >> it was disinformation. >> i was listening to some music to kind of forget about the day, the news day, and i said, we don't -- we don't need to hear what they say. it doesn't matter what they say. what matters is what goes on in the courtrooms and we all know where this is going. you look at these -- you look at these poll numbers, we all know where this is going, and i think the question, mika, is how long does tim scott -- again, somebody that i have said is a very strong candidate -- how long does tim scott humiliate

himself by pretending that donald trump did nothing wrong? how long does he humiliate himself by talking about hunter biden taking $7 million talking about everything but jared kushner's $2 billion, and the ime he worked with, and the golf. how long are they going to create these false equivalencies. i'm not saying jared did anything illegal, but if you are going to say trump told nuclear secrets and hunter biden making $3 million -- $7 million from three different countries and you're going to create this false narrative, i keep trying to say it and i wish somebody would listen to me in the republican party other than chris christie. this ends badly. this ends badly. >> yeah. >> you look terrible defending this guy who tried to steal an

election and undermine democracy for the rest of your life. >> more importantly, you look weak. they look weak. >> they do look weak. >> they want to elect a leader that can stand strong in the face of whatever comes his or her way. >> right. >> if something is wrong, a leader will say, that's wrong. that's not -- that's not what our constitution says. >> right. >> that's not what a democracy is about. that's not the president i will be. where is that? >> as jonathan lemere pointed out, a majority of americans say donald trump threatened the very existence of democracy itself. only 18% said he strengthened it. so i agree, you know, we can go to diners, wherever we want to go to, and every american's voice is valid. >> mm-hmm. >> every vote should count the same, but this -- i think the

media needs to just wake up and stop obsessing on the people who make you catastrophize. who say the craziest things to get more views, more hits, more whatever because the reality is i mean, what matters is what chuck said, is what happens in the courtroom, not the crazy stuff you're reading on social media. or that you are -- >> watching on television. >> or that you are watching on television on another network, or that your crazy uncle sends to you, something that he thought about while he was on the toilet and you give that as much credence as you do news stories that come out of the "wall street journal" with hundreds and hundreds of journalists with dozens and dozens of editors, with the understanding that if they don't get it right, they're in big trouble. right? >> yeah. >> so you can do all that if you want. you're wasting your time because

right now it's what matters inside the jury box, and politically, mika, you look at these numbers, you see what independents are doing, and let me say again, republicans. this doesn't get better. isn't it interesting that democrats want cameras in the courtroom? democrats want transparency. democrats want this trial before the election. if you are innocent -- >> what's the problem? >> what are you saying? you would be saying, yeah, i want cameras in the courtroom. i'm innocent. give us time to get ready, and you're damn right, i want this before the election because i want my name cleared. what does donald trump and his republican supporters do? they say, no, no, no. no cameras in the courtroom. no transparency. we don't want people to actually see what he did, and yeah. let's push it off after the election,after the election.

we don't want the jury to have a say before the election. let me tell you, that's something who's guilty because if you are accused of doing something you didn't do, you want transparency if you have been charged. you want that trial as soon as possible. you want it on tv for all the world to see. they don't, and also politically, mika, again, what matters is the jury box, but politically look at where the independents are going here. the independents tell the tale for republicans. >> so fox news poll shows the majority of voters think donald trump broke the law in his efforts to stay in power following the 2020 election. in the survey, 53% say his actions after the vote were illegal. >> wow. >> that includes 62% of independents who believe he broke the law. i'll go on to a new quinnipiac poll conducted after jack

smith's federal indictment of trump this month, but before the georgia fulton county indictment showing 54% of americans think the former president should be prosecuted on federal criminal charges relating to his attempt to overturn the 2020 election. >> so here are those independent numbers. >> wow. >> 62% of independents believe donald trump, what he did was illegal. >> mm-hmm. >> 62%. only 22% -- the wrong one. there we go. only 22% say it was not illegal. >> so reverend -- >> 62% to 22%. that's who the republican party -- that's who they're embracing. >> so there's a lot of questions as to why republicans would continue to walk down this road, reverend al. candidates like tim scott refusing to answer questions about basic, basic things that

donald trump did. republican leaders in congress as well, not seeing how badly this ends. i mean, do the polls at this point -- do the polls trigger a turn from donald trump? because everyone with a brain who understands basics of the law and the constitution can see where this is going. >> it shows the political cowardice of a lot of the opponents of donald trump in the primaries because apparently, they're voting public. the republican voting public is clearer than they are. how do you have these kinds of polls, and you don't have any of the major candidates that are challenging or claiming to be challenging donald trump for the nomination, even near where the polls are saying their voters are? it is outrageous when you think about it taking a step back,

that the leadership of the party has acquiesced to someone who is legally in question, but clearly toxic to a lot of the public. so what are you winning here? and i think joe makes a very good point. if you have nothing to hide, if you accuse me of something that i thought i was totally innocent of, i would say, rush to trial because i want to be acquitted at best, hung jury at worst before the election. why would i want to wait until after the election? if i'm acquitted before the election, that gives me a momentum if i'm donald trump to say that, see? i can win these primaries. i proved one case wrong. the fact that you know the facts means you want to kick the can down the curb as long as you can because you know what you know, and you know everybody else may know it at trial. >> exactly, and charlie sykes, i mean, is it cowardice or is it

stupidity? donald trump's republican party has lost every election since 2017. >> you can't be that stupid. he can't be. >> here's the thing. they know they're going to lose in '24 with donald trump at the head of the ticket. they know that. you look at these numbers. they know that. so i mean when i was a republican, not only do we like to win. we like to win big. >> right. >> i don't like close races. i never had close races and i got angry if it looked like it was going to be a close race. we ran and we ran hard and we ran to win, and now you have people running to lose. they see the numbers and they know they're going to lose and these politicians, you know, it's almost like a doctor that opens up a patient to see if they have cancer, finds it all over their body, closes the body, and tells the patient, you're fine. you're good. you're going out, clean bill of

health, enjoy yourself. the doctor knows what's going to happen. this is what republican leaders are doing now. they know they're going to lose with trump. >> well, they have two problems. number one, they're not leaders. they're followers of the base and they have been doing this for seven years, and many of them know they're going to lose with trump, but they're also afraid they will lose without trump. this is the corner they've put themselves in. they've got a base that is so rabidly behind the cult leader that if donald trump is defeated or pushed aside, they're worried those voters won't turn out and vote. so they have to figure out, how do you push past donald trump without antagonizing his base? and nobody has figured that out yet, but i do think to your previous questions, i think the debate in milwaukee next week is going to be kind of interesting. i agree with you. i don't think donald trump's going to show up, but we'll see

whether or not there is a response to this massive reality check from the other candidates, whether tim scott actually wants to run for president or wants to run for vice president because if there's going to be a pivot, it's hard to imagine that it doesn't happen relatively soon. coming up, a texas woman has been arrested for allegedly threatening to kill the judge assigned to oversee former president trump's 2020 election interference case. we'll get the disturbing details of a voicemail she left the judge. "morning joe" is back in a moment. judge. "morning joe" is back in a moment rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. ( ♪♪ ) the first fda-approved rsv vaccine. arexvy is used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv

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being middle class right now, it's tough making ends meet for sure. republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the biggest corporations the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. right. joe biden would rather just stop those corporations from charging so damn much. capping the cost of drugs like insulin. cracking down on surprise medical bills and all those crazy junk fees. there's more work to do. tell the president to keep lowering costs for middle class families.

now to a disturbing situation out of texas where a woman was arrested and charged with threatening the federal judge presiding over former president donald trump's federal election interference case in washington, d.c. the 43-year-old who was denied bail allegedly threatened to kill judge tanya chutkan, and we want to warn you that some of these details are disturbing.

according to an affidavit filed last week, the woman recently left a voicemail layden with racial slurs saying, quote, you are in our sights. we want to kill you, she goes on and on and on targeting her personally, her family, and all of it. >> mika doesn't want to read it. >> i don't want to highlight this, but the woman is accused of threatening to kill also democratic congressman sheila jackson lee who's also african american as well as other democrats and members of the lgbtq community. nbc news has reached out to the woman's lawyer for comment, but we have not heard back yet. joining us now, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. ken, i would think as the indictments rack up now with the georgia one and donald trump having his press conference on monday and putting out his own

opinions as to what's happening to him and naming names in these indictments doesn't -- i would think woman would argue this doesn't help the situation in terms of the safety of our judges and juries and other people trying to uphold the law. >> of course, mika. you're absolutely right, and, you know, the day after judge tanya chutkan was named as the judge in this case, reporters noticed that she was accompanied everywhere she went inside the federal courthouse in washington, d.c. by a security detail which was a new development, and now we know why she needed that security detail. the woman's name who's been charged as abigail jo shry. she's 43 years old and lives in a town south of houston, and i don't think we should shy away from letting people know exactly how vile the threats made -- >> agree. >> -- in a phone call to judge chutkan's chambers were.

the phone call allegedly began with, hey, you stupid slave "n" word, and she went on to say if trump doesn't get elected in 2024, according to the complaint, we're going to kill you so tread lightly, "b" word, and you will be targeted personally, publicly, your family, all of it. it emerged in the hearing and the reason she was held without bail is she'd been arrested four times for making threats, other similar kinds of threats. this is a repeat offender, somebody who's obviously not well, but there's a pattern here. the fbi just shot to death a man in utah who had a trump hat. >> yes. >> and who was armed and who was engaging in angry rhetoric. the man who attacked paul pelosi in his house in san francisco engaging in some of the same rhetoric he had seen online. so absolutely, law enforcement deeply, deeply concerned about all of this, and of course, in

another development, the names of the grand jurors in georgia which are public in that state were immediately vacuumed up by trump supporters online who then doxxed them, and published their information on fringe websites which we don't want to identify because we don't want to spread that. a deep and worrying development for those people and their families and that's the kind of climate that we are in right now and it's very, very dangerous. >> well, and it's not -- it's not a climate that grows by itself. it's a climate that's been generated by hatred from donald trump from tweet after tweet or truth after truth social, whatever they call it. >> it doesn't help that they think january 6th was just a random act. i mean, come on. >> exactly, and you look at the hatred towards officials, the fbi. if you are coming after me, i'm coming after you, et cetera.

it goes on and on. ken dilanian, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent, ken, we really appreciate you being with us this morning on what's going to be a long day for you. >> yeah. >> we appreciate it. rev, ken brings up some great points here. there's -- i think back to -- i think back to the guy who had all the pipe bombs in florida, that he was going to use on people. paul pelosi's attacker again, echoing language used by trump and trump supporters. the fbi, and ken talked about the utah guy. the fbi having to shoot the person in utah who was making assassination threats and then raised his gun and had his gun raised and his neighbor screamed hearing him saying, i'm not coming out. i think about after all the threats against the fbi, the attack on the fbi office in

ohio, it goes on and on. they are donald trump and some extreme supporters are, you know, they're promoting this violence because their words are violent. i can list 100 things that trump and his supporters have said and have done where they promote, you know, fascist style violence against government officials. i mean, my god. look. he's not a trump supporter, but he's learning to play trump's game. ron desantis when asked about federal employees, he said on the first day he's going to slit their throats. >> oh, god. >> this is the rhetoric that's taken over in the republican party and we see the consequences of it. >> and the republican party leadership not coming out and denouncing it and none of the candidates or the top tier candidates are really denouncing

the violence or the rhetoric as you point out, slit throat all the way to donald trump saying i'm going to come after you in the midst of people being arrested and one man shot dead because he was -- had a weapon at fbi agents, and the racial language. i mean, this woman, to call a federal office or call a judge's chambers talking about -- to a slave, using a word that rhymes with the "n" word. donald trump himself, using the word riggers, which clearly rhymes with the "n" word. also the central park five, and also within the last 24 hours used the term riggers. is this the kind of party the republicans want to show the country that they are? there's no wonder independents are running away from them.

to identify with blatant racism and blatant violence is not the party we need, and i've never been a republican, never leaned that way, but we need a two-party system, but we don't need one that prides itself in bigotry. coming up, our next guest argues none of the prosecutions of donald trump can stop him from running for president, but there's another reason he could be ineligible for 2024. we'll explain that next on "morning joe." explain that nextn "morning joe." trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... [coughing] ...copd sitting down. ♪it's a new dawn,...♪ ♪...it's a new day,♪ it's time to make a stand. ♪and i'm feelin' good.♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd... ...medicine has the power

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despite what the former president and his allies have said for now more than 2 1/2 years and continues to insist at this very hour, the georgia election was not stolen and i had no right to overturn the election on january 6th.

it's a hard truth. my friend, governor brian kemp said it well yesterday. he said, quote, for nearly three years, anyone with evidence of fraud has failed to come forward. >> republican presidential candidate mike pence has repeatedly said that anyone who discounts the constitution should never be elected again, but our next guest notes that none of trump's criminal prosecutions, even if he is convicted can constitutionally stop him from running and winning next year's election. that is unless state officials keep him off the ballot. here to explain is "washington post" writer ned foley. he says he might already be ineligible for 2024, and ned, if you could explain that, and is

this a technical way that he may not be eligible, like, what would it take for this to actually happen? would the people do it? >> yes, good morning. good to be with you. so this provision of the constitution was adopted after the civil war to stop people who had been in the united states government who had taken an oath to uphold the constitution, but then betrayed that oath by joining the conconfederacy. it was put into the constitution as part of the 14th amendment, the prohibition that they could never serve in federal or state government ever again. it's written broadly to apply not just to the civil war itself, but to any insurrection of the united states. the question is whether that applies to trump, and if it does, what procedurally is the way to adjudicate that issue before the election? >> so ned, walk us through that

argument. if a state were to pursue this course here against donald trump, try to prevent him from appearing on the ballot, what could be the machinations for that to occur, and talk us to about how it would be received in the courts because certainly trump would be appealing. >> yes. so i think the way it's perceived in the courts is really important. i think we're definitely going to get litigation. there are a couple of private groups that have already said they're going to pursue this, but their technical rules of jurisdiction and court procedure that would make it better if this was brought by state officials, by a secretary of state who's in charge of the election procedures for that state, but in order to make that as clear as possible, a state legislature should set the pathway for that kind of litigation because under our constitution, it's state legislatures that have the power to determine presidential elections, the appointment of the electors and so forth.

so to make this as clear and as orderly as possible, it would be good for a state legislature to spell out exactly how the procedure should get into court. >> it's so fascinating that it was of course, and we saw in an article in "the new york times" that conservative -- prominent conservative members of the federal society's professors are making a similar argument. this is from adam's piece last week. two prominent conservative lawmakers have concluded that it bars people who have engaged in insurrections from holding public office. the professors william baud and michael stokes paulson studied the question for more than a year. of course, they have a long article coming out i guess in law review at the university of pennsylvania law review next

year. talk about -- your argument and their argument. are they similar? do you branch out in certain ways or do you all agree that you go back and you look at this post-civil war statute as a bar for donald trump? >> i essentially agree with their position, but the point that i add in my piece is it matters that this goes to the u.s. supreme court, you know, it's not enough for law professors to say this. this has to be decided definitively one way or the other. >> right. >> by the united states supreme court. there are arguments on both sides. it is a debatable question about exactly how this provision of the constitution applies to former president trump, and so that just needs to be clarified and it's really important that it be clarified before the election next year so that when voters see their ballots, they know that they can vote for a qualified candidate. the thing i fear the most is that the whole election goes

forward, and that this then issue arises after the voting and there's an attempt to disqualify if for example, he were to run afterwards. >> charlie? >> i guess my main question though is political. i agree that, you know, section 3 of the 14th amendment does disqualify donald trump, but on a practical level, let's say in my home state of wisconsin, there would have been a court ruling saying that donald trump should not appear on the ballot, and by a 4-3 majority, they would say, wisconsin voters should not even be able to vote for donald trump. i understand the legal merits of that, but i wonder how that plays around the country, and i wonder whether that's one of those things, be careful what you wish for if, in fact, you have courts around the country basically saying, yeah. we're not even going to allow voters to vote for donald trump, and i mean, i agree with the legal argument, but politically,

it sounds messy to me. >> i agree 100%. that's why it has to come from the united states supreme court as the court for the whole nation and what i think is even worse potentially than the kind of chaotic, different opinions in courts around the country that you mentioned is if congress attempted to invoke this provision, you know, on january 6, 2025 after let's say hypothetically, he's won the electoral college. taking the votes away from the voters, and that would be the most fraught for peril, and the most likely for violence as you were talking about earlier on the show. there's an argument that congress could invoke this afterwards under the procedures of the 12th amendment, and all the reforms that those procedures that appropriately take place after the january 6th insurrection to improve those procedures doesn't deal with this issue because this issue goes to the eligibility of a

candidate, not the counting of the ballots. coming up, congress is trying toy a vert fears over another possible government shutdown. we'll go live to capitol hill for a look at the options on the table. "morning joe" is coming right back. table. "morning joe" is coming right back i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity.

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been searched. >> you look at this story, rev. i'm sorry, i can't fathom how this happened in 2023, that this town would burn and burn out of control and people weren't evacuated in time or there wasn't sufficient water supply. you add up all of the excuses by the local officials and none of them make sense. these senior citizens left to burn to death. it's still just impossible to comprehend this would happen in america. >> it's mind boggling how it seems there was no preparation, no structure in place for what we would assume would be an area of preparation for any american

city, particularly somebody that you get so many tourists as maui, it's mind boggles how unprepared you were. president biden and the first lady will visit on monday. they will meet with first responders, tour the aftermath of the damage and discuss next steps in the recovery effort. president biden has been in contact with both the state's governor and head of fema since the wildfires broke out. before that, the president of south korea and prime minister of japan will meet with president biden at camp david tomorrow. there, the trio will announce plans to expand defensive cooperation between their nations amid an increase in threats by north korea and rising tensions with china. it marks an important moment for

president biden, who will host the talks, but also for south korea and japan, which only recently agreed to fully return to an intel-sharing pact among their militaries. tensions between the two countries date back more than a hundred years, centering on japan's brutal occupation of the korean peninsula. >> let's bring in richard hawes. obviously history will look kindly on joe biden, what he's done and being first among equals with his nato partners and helping nato and helping europe move forward to expand that coalition to the strongest it's ever been. the fact that president after president in this century has been promising to have that asian pivot and now we have joe biden flexing america's might

from guam to the philippines to south korea to japan to australia, it's really quite something that he is finally doing what the last four presidents have promised to do. >> this is a big deal. the hallmark of the biden foreign policy, you might say we've gone from america first to alliance first. obviously the coordination on behalf of ukraine and europe now bringing this together. this is a real quiet success for american diplomacy. japan and south korea were at serious loggerheads over how to deal with the past. a lot of quiet work has gone into this because it's politically so sensitive for the leadership of both countries. this is a powerful message to china, a powerful message of north korea, which continues to build up its missile forces and nuclear forces. yes, there will probably be

greater military planning and exercising. it's important to get everybody on the same page to deal with taiwan contingencies and economic security issues. the only issue i take is now the real challenge for the administration is to back this up with increased american military presence and capability in this part of the world. we're setting the diplomatic table really well. we've got to make sure we have the capabilities to back it up. coming up, actor eric mccormack and alex moffat joins us with a look at their new broadway show "the cottage." w ""

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that's so pretty. look at that. los angeles, i love you. >> good morning, l.a. >> gosh, people who live there are so lucky. i bet the weather's nice. what do you think? how's the heat? >> it's been a while. is that frans ferdinand? it's interpol. i missed interpol. joey scarborough is not going to be happy that i misidentified interpol. >> this is the fourth hour of "morning joe."

it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east. jonathan lemire is still with us. he's the author of "the big lie." and donny deutsch is with us. >> we brought in the technicians from east hampton. there's a big studio out here. they came in hazmat uniforms and got everything fixed. >> they haven't done a very good job. okay. we'll live with it.

>> i want to know if let's say when you represented chevy, they came to you and they had the numbers we've seen donald trump have this morning. things seem to be going in the opposite direction. the brand seems to be beyond upside down. this is one of those recall stories that you used to do, like at cbs. this is like a recall case, it seems to me, where transparency cuts against donald trump. cameras in the courtroom obviously cut against donald trump. as long as people live in their little bubbles, the conspiracies will sort of rise up and they'll think what they want to think. you're the pro at this, spent your life doing this.

it seems to me the more info that comes out, the more we learn about donald trump, the more he's bleeding independent support like crazy. his numbers are plummeting. is there any recovery for him, or is this a one-way exit from the political stage? is it time for republicans to really start trying to figure out how to actually win in 2024? >> look, the polls show almost two-thirds of americans will not vote for donald trump. this is before any of the pageantry starts. let's take the january 6th indictment, for instance. all of the people, the witnesses they're going to be calling are. ares, are inside trumpers. we haven't heard this yet. forget whether cameras are in or not in the courtroom. we are going to hear real human beings talking in realtime about

all of the criminal doings of donald trump. so this is now before we're picking up the cup and shows what's underneath it. so there is no common sense logic that tells you it's going to move any other direction. the trials haven't started yet. we haven't heard any of the testimony. once the testimony comes out, it only gets worse for trump, period. >> jonathan lemire, you studied january 6th so much. donald trump has been able to tread political waters so far. forget about legal waters. again, that dye is cast. it's up to the jurors now. i don't see a way forward for him legally. but politically it seems to me that things only get worse because the more information

gets out, the more these alternative media bubbles are going to be challenged, the more reality is going to intrude on donald trump. again, my father, watergate, he was a nixon guy. the tapes come out, and even he says, this guy doesn't deserve to be in the white house. when you look at cameras in the courtroom, people sit there looking at it like the o.j. trial. does that mean members of the cult are going to break away from their leader? no. but it certainly means that independent number goes down. the number of people who say donald trump shouldn't run jumps up. his approval ratings dip. it becomes even for the most diehard republicans, it just

becomes untenable. they go, we have to focus on winning elections instead of circling wagons around a guy who's been indicted four times. >> the last time there was a televised look into proceedings about january 6th, the house hearings a year ago, donald trump's numbers took a little bit of a tumble here. they see images of these rioters and learn stories about how trump tried to overturn the will of the people. trump's done a good job in the republican base of downplaying it, of softening it, of suggesting january 6th wsn't that big of a deal, it was just a protest that got out of hand. that may work with the gop base. that' polling we're seeing this morning, independent voters don't like

this. they don't like legal proceedings against trump. they're tired of the chaos. those are the voters who decide elections nearly every cycle. this is perilous for donald trump and any republican looking to ride his coattails. >> they may want to wake up. maybe they get more clicks by playing the anti-anti-trump card, but all they're doing is driving their party and the conservative cause off the cliff. again, these numbers are insurmountable for donald trump and the republican party. just logically think through it. how else is it going to go? the more information that gets out there, again, these

conspiracy theories live in the shadows. they live in the shadows of the facts. the more the facts come out, the more we hear all of the trump people who all worked for donald trump, all appointed by donald trump talking about january 6th and talking about not his first amendment rights, but a conspiracy to create false electors to defraud millions of voters out of their votes. do we have the roger stone thing? >> we showed it last hour. >> this is a scheme. this was a scheme that they had already figured out before the election was called. they said, we're going to steal the election. what we can do is we can get tens of millions of votes thrown out, create fraudulent electors

and have the state legislators that are pro-trump just totally disregard all the votes in their state. >> and so arrogant about this enterprise, about this effort that they had a filmmaker following them with dark lighting and the whole thing. here it is. >> yeah. >> the final decision as to who the state legislatures authorize the electoral college is a decision made solely by the legislature. we must be prepared to lobby our republican legislatures. >> so that was before the

election was called. he's laying out the conspiracy. he's laying out the fraudulent electors scheme. again, these anti-anti-trumpers say, oh, this is all about first amendment. no. this was a conspiracy to steal votes. and it was done before the election was even over. >> you know, i waxed nostalgically as i was listening to roger stone. we forget during this seven-year parade of rogues, the characters that have surrounded trump. i got all warm and fuzzy hearing roger stone talk about this beautiful wonderful conspiracy. >> i didn't. >> explain to me how one suburban voter in philadelphia, the swing voters or in milwaukee

or outside of phoenix, as they hear more and more of this and as they see this one little roger stone clip and the meat on the bones of these indictments, it is impossible to logic out how this continues to not go against trump. this is just a little roger stone moment. just imagine as we hear the musings of giuliani and sidney powell and these other characters and the people that will be called in the january 6th case. this is not going to go well for him. >> add to that rudy giuliani had a handshake agreement with donald trump that donald would cover all of his legal costs. i mean, how stupid can these people be? i wonder if he's paying for anybody's legal fees except his own with donations. joining us now, politics reporter for the "washington

post" amber phillips joins us. her latest piece is entitled "why trump's georgia arraignment trial could be different than the others." also with us, criminal defense attorney and former watergate prosecutor john sale. and mehdi hasan joins us as well. >> john, i love having you on. i saw a column by andy mccarthy, a guy who writes for "national review" and "new york post." he thinks the georgia case and the documents case are the strongest cases. he thinks the january 6th case is a bit of a reach legally, and

he thinks the manhattan case is a joke. i'm curious. i'm not assigning those feelings to you. i'm curious how you look at these four cases and how you lay them out in terms of threats to the former president. >> well, i read andy's column. as you know, he's a fox contributor, so i read it with great interest. i think the documents case is the easiest to try. i think the georgia case with 19 defendants, there is no way that can get tried quickly. as it stands now, every defendant is a separate case. a jury will be instructed that they have to deliberate as to each defendant separately. now, some may plead, some may get dismissed out. as of now, we have to assume there are 19. there's a rico case going on right now in atlanta where

they've been trying to pick a jury for six months. so that case is not going to get tried. i think the federal case, jack smith's case, is the most serious that can get tried. and i think that realistically that one can get tried. a very close friend of mine persuaded me to change my mind about something. i used to be against cameras in the courtroom. now i strongly believe this case needs to be televised, because the american people need to see the story so we don't become numb to this. i saw jon meacham on your show a couple days ago. he said there are a large number of people who would follow donald trump to a cliff and then he said a number of them might follow him over the cliff. some of those people need to see this case on television. i'd also like to say something about roy cohen. >> go ahead. >> mika said a day or two ago she read something from the new yorker that donald trump learned

his playbook from roy. i had the -- i'm trying to think of a better word than pleasure -- of interacting against roy. i tried a case against him. it was in his interest to be nice to me. he could be charming. but when he represented donald trump, he did teach him the playbook. it started with -- and i don't mean to this to be light. roy cohen didn't pay anybody. roy cohen was known and liked in the court, but a court reporter wouldn't take an order from him without a bank check or cash up front. and he got away from it. roy prisoners, go after your adversaries, go after them personally. if i were trump's lawyer and i went in and i said, mr.

president, here's a plea bargain for you, he would throw me out of the office. roy told me he described a country lawyer -- joe, you said you're a country lawyer who fell off a turnip truck. by roy was humiliated by joe welch during the mccarthy hearings. roy said he'll never let that happen again. the important thing is the odds of beating a federal case are very slim. 95% or higher of their conviction rate, what are the odds of donald trump beating two of them? well, i believe chris christie is right when he says donald trump is afraid to go to prison. if he's going to be booked like everyone else in atlanta, he's going to spend hours actually locked up. and he might entertain a possible plea bargain. why will he eventually turn it

down? because roy cohen was indicted three times by the feds, and guess what? three times not guilty. >> that says something right there. that's a really important insight. >> i've been talking this morning about how these numbers that have come out today are so damning for donald trump and the republicans who blindly follow him. i said things are only going to become clearer as we move forward. the process is going to become more transparent and all of the lies that donald trump pushes are going to get exposed. yet another example here this morning. jonah goldberg retweeted with an lol, breaking news from abc, donald trump's promised press conference to refute the

allegations by the fulton county d.a.'s office is now very much in doubt. again, people are catastrophizing about what they may hear on cable news channels or what podcasters are saying. i must say at this point, i agree completely with chuck rosenberg. we are moving from the alex jones land into the federal courthouse. i will tell you as a dumb country lawyer that fell off a turnip truck, oh, i didn't like going inside a federal courthouse. they're very frightening places to go even as a young lawyer. i'm wondering what your take is about separating out all of this noise, sort of the ground noise with the signal, which is what donald trump now faces, which is the law. >> and he's afraid of the law. listening to john speak there

about him being booked and what might go through his mind, i genuinely think we need to start having a discussion about whether this guy is a flight risk. i don't say that lightly. the closer we get to trials, the more serious it becomes looking at how hard core these indictments are from smith and willis. i don't know if you saw him joking with his followers the other day, i wish i was in france right now, not in america. nothing is off the table with this guy. i genuinely think we're going to talk about what is his exit strategy apart from a plea? coming back to your point about monday, when i saw that he was announcing a press conference to relitigate the 2020 election with his evidence of fraud and we've got mike lindell holding a conference this week doing the same thing. i kind of started warming up my popcorn, because this is the best thing that could happen politically and legally.

yeah, donald, give us more of that great evidence, make some more unfounded allegations against people. don't forget ruby freeman and shea moss who he smeared. that's why he has no good defense lawyers. i'm not a lawyer, but i'm pretty sure if i was a lawyer and i was donald trump's lawyer, my first advice would be shut the hell up, and he doesn't. therefore, no good lawyer wants to represent him. >> you are so right. that's even more troubling for some of them than the fact they don't get paid. >> they don't get paid. >> we've been talking about conversations we have offline at night with chuck rosenberg about how you were concerned about what people were saying on another cable news network. i just want to follow up with what medhi said. when you heard he was going to give this press conference earlier this week, you were like

why? how do we stop him? how can people stop him from going out and lying and smearing people? my response was medhi's response. if you want justice to be done, you want him holding those press conferences. you want him on the debate stage. because when he talks, he makes admissions against interest. i guarantee you any prosecutor when they hear donald trump's going to give a press conference, they have a celebration and they get the notepads out and they're ready to start writing. >> i understand that completely. can i just give you my point of view? i feel like he has talked enough, he has done enough damage to this country, he has done enough damage to thousands of people's lives literally. we have people in jail because they followed his lead on january 6th. we have people making threats.

and we have these trials under way. i don't want him to create more havoc on this country. it does scare me that he doesn't give a damn about anybody. there are a lot of innocents in this. >> it obviously is a really -- that's true, but i will say legally, though, at the same time -- >> he hurts himself. >> the more he talks, the more he damages himself legally. >> i know. >> he's already in so much trouble. >> what more does he need to say? he keeps lying about the election. he keeps threatening jack smith. i mean, if you look at this, look at this. >> amber, you've written that georgia is different than the other cases. how is that? >> beyond what we've been talking about on your show, the cameras, the potential for a mugshot, being booked in a jail, that's extraordinary for a former president.

i've been talking to lawyers who point out a couple different ways this is going to be different. one is that this is the most comprehensive story of the 2020 election. it's a 98-page indictment and it aims to tell a story perhaps that jack smith can't. i talked to one prosecutor who described the january 6th indictment as cliff notes of what happened and this as encyclopedic. it's going to try to hold other people accountable. one legal expert told me donald trump can't do this on his own. there's 18 codefendants. i think it's interesting how the indictment does focus on the attack of election workers doing their jobs. i talked to one lawyer who said this is the story of real people. so when this goes to trial, when there's cameras in the courtroom, we're going to hear real people and their lives being affected by this, much as

we did with january 6th. i want to point out one way i've heard this trial could be different than jack smith's in a way that might bode to trump's favor. i talked to someone close to this investigation in georgia who said this person was in the grand jury room witness room before they went to testify before the grand jury, they said it felt amateurish. i felt like people were tweeting, i'm on my way or i'm about to go testify. they were talking to each other. grand juries are supposed to be super secret. so this person was hypothesizing that with such a huge case it's going to be tough to wrap this all together into a nice and neat trial. then you add on the potential amateurness of this, it could take years to litigate this. >> wow. the "washington post's" amber phillips, thank you so much for your reporting on this. i think we're still getting our

arms around the mountain that donald trump faces legally and we're so used to seeing him treat america, the presidency, his post presidency, his power like a new york post headline. and yet i think when you talk about the walls closing in on this former president, it's not just the walls closing in. it's going to get real as he goes to trial. >> it already has. we talked about gravity returning. i talked about alex jones. you say, oh my god, somebody can say that about parents of children who got slaughtered? no, it ends up they can't. the things that were said, lying about voting machine companies, you're like, wow, can people really say that? ends up they can't. i remember us all looking horrified, people using american flags to brutalize and abuse and beat up and use bear spray on police officers. you're like, what country are we

living in? well, we're living in a country where if you do that, you spend a lot of time in jail. jonathan lemire, gravity is returning. we're seeing it with donald trump and these indictments. i believe the weight of this is falling on him right now. maybe nobody mentions a plea deal to him. he's got to be thinking. >> how do i get out of this? >> the guy's smart enough on a gut level to know he's cornered legally. he's cornered. >> yeah. the fear is so evident in his social media posts, the all-caps screed continuing overnight. we've got some more this morning. people close to him say, well, the only way out of this is to win. that's why the campaign continues.

the poll numbers suggest while he's doing okay with republicans, that could be a very different story next year. john sale, you said something that grabbed me a few minutes ago when you were listing the trials trump is facing. you focused on jack smith's federal election case here in washington. you said that one's for trial. tell us what you mean by that in terms of speed and you think there's a conviction likely? >> the prosecutors should talk to each other. they should not compete with each other, which concerns me. it's a single-defendant case. that case can go to trial, because although the discovery is voluminous, we're not living in the 19th century where i'm working with a quill pen. we have platforms that we upload data into and we have search terms. so he's entitled to effective assistance of counsel, so he

needs time. but six months, there's no reason that case could not be tried in six months. and the judges can talk to each other, because now all these trial dates are overlapping. that case because it's one defendant, i think that's the reason the six unindicted coconspirators weren't charged, so the case could go to trial. he's entitled to the fair trial and the presumption of innocence. it won't be televised, but that case is ready to go to trial. so is the documents case in florida, where i live. >> medhi, we've been showing polls all morning that show independents are starting to break dramatically against donald trump. what are your insights there? >> so i think the polling has been fascinating this week, very bad for trump. the fox news poll, 62% of independents say he did

something illegal. the abc news poll out today show the majority of independents think the indictment in georgia is a serious thing. then you throw in the a.p. poll this week, which shows i think 53% of voters say they will definitely not vote for trump. another11% say they probably won't vote for donald trump. that's 64% of people who say they're not going to vote for donald trump. people in phoenix and atlanta and the suburbs and the swing voters, why would they look at any of these trials and say, oh, i didn't vote for trump last time, but i'll definitely vote for him this time. who says in 2024, yeah, he's my guy? there's great polling today as well which shows not just independents are 60% less likely to vote for trump as a result of the georgia indictment, but 24% of republicans say in the general it makes them less likely to vote for trump. we keep saying, well, it's not

hurting him with republicans, and overall that's true. but in a close election, even a small number of republicans saying we are fed up with this guy, that could be the tipping point for joe biden. >> it has taken a long time for people to get fed up with trump on a grand scale for trump supporters to start turning. if dan could put up all those legal challenges that donald trump is facing, i think it was six, including stormy daniels, tax fraud, defamation. every single one of those are serious. i know some people think the hush money case is not serious. if any other president was found to have had an affair with a porn star stormy daniels and then paid to cover it up, being a campaign finance violation, that would have been possibly eliminating. all of these are serious. if you look at them, from the

classified documents to election interference, to hush money, he admits to what he did. he doesn't deny the affair or the payment. he says the documents were his. he just insists he took them because they were his. he says he did it. he keeps saying today the election was stolen. it was not. >> the most damning thing is on the classified documents case, is you have his own words on tape. they've got him on tape where he said i could have declassified these when i was president, i can't declassify them now. i shouldn't show you this, but hey, look at this. january 6th, everybody that's testifying there were all inside of his white house, were all part of the team that he put together, they were begging him to stop january 6th. you go to the georgia election

interference case. it is his words to georgia's secretary of state and georgia's governor, both trumpers, both republicans who supported donald trump, who just didn't support donald trump more than they supported american democracy. you go through all of it -- >> e. jean carroll, liable for sexual abuse. >> he's saying oh, she's not my type, then he identifies her as his wife, marla maples. time and time again, his own words get him in trouble. what john sale said about roy cohen is great to know. but i will say this, i didn't know roy cohen, but i do know this. when it comes to the law, donald trump is no roy cohen. if he thinks he's going to get out of these indictments, no such luck. >> mehdi hasan, we will be

watching you on sundays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. criminal defense attorney and former watergate prosecutor john sale, thank you very much for coming on. >> a guy who definitely did not fall off of a turnip truck. >> not even close. >> you said you did. it was your words. i've got you on tape, joe. coming up on "morning joe," can states learn to govern artificial intelligence before it's too late? our next guest tackles that question. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. subway's slicing their turkey fresh like on the titan turkey. piled high with double the cheese and more meat. i proffer freshly sliced turkey. it's my favorite mouth guard flavor. mmmm. now available at subway. the sub, not the mouth guard.

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welcome back to "morning joe." look at that beautiful shot of seattle. makes you feel good, doesn't it, joe? >> i guess it does. >> i love the west coast, home of the great joey scarborough. >> seattle not always blessed

with sunrises like that. >> it's like a painting. >> if you're in seattle and you're half a sleep and the tv is on, you may want to go outside and take a walk, or just stay in bed. i don't want to be a nag. what a beautiful day, though, huh? >> our next guest, we're going to talk about a.i., which is really scary. i noticed one of my daughters using chatgpt like it was just a normal thing. >> it's crazy. again, just what you can do on the app is really frightening. >> our next guest wants us to imagine it's the year 2035 and artificial intelligence is elsewhere. a.i. systems run hospitals, operate airlines and battle each other in the courtroom. productivity has spiked to

unprecedented levels and countless previously unimaginable businesses have scaled at blistering speed, generating immense advances in well-being, new products, cures and innovations hit the market daily as science and technology kick into overdrive. and yet the world is growing both more unpredictable and more fragile as terrorists find new ways to menace societies with intelligent, evolving cyber weapons and white collar workers lose their jobs en masse. >> let's bring in ian bremmer. his new piece is titled "the a.i. power paradox." donny deutsch is with us. i just think back over my lifetime and your lifetime, ian. i may be a little older than

you. when i graduated from high school, more people worked at general motors then that now work at google, apple, youtube. go down the list of all the companies, spotify, all the tech companies. from what you're saying, and it makes sense, a shrinking workforce is going to, it seems, shrink even more in the coming years, causing political problems and social unrest. >> at the very least, joe, a very different workforce if the jobs we're going to have are going to require different skills, if you're not becoming ai adjacent, competitors who are will be more productive than you. this time around it's not the blue collar laborer that is most in danger of being displaced.

it's the university educated, it's the white collar worker, people with more money and political access and privilege. they can be a lot more destabilizing when they feel like their interests are not taken in place. so certainly we're going to have to respond in finding ways to rebuild a social contract that since the 1970s in the united states has been fraying in ways that are very dangerous and politically polarizing in this country, but also it's the proliferation of these technologies for good and for bad. i mean, we don't have to go to 2035 to see the impact. just this year, if you talk to anyone that knows how to code, they will tell you they can't imagine coding without using ai tools. that's extraordinary for productivity, but i promise you, joe, that within a year you find people that are engaged in

malware and spearphishing. you can't imagine doing that without ai. think about how quaint the days used to be when we had to do all this ourselves, and now we have these incredible tools. that's going to happen in the creation of bioweapons and undermining national security and economic markets. we don't yet have any governance to respond to these challenges. >> ian, i want to scare people even more. i want you to really kind of granularly explain. let's fast forward ten years. take me through an actual scenario that's going to scare the crap out of us. really put some meat on the bones here. >> well, disinformation is perhaps the most obvious one. you remember the gamestop crisis

and the fact that you had a small number of individuals on reddit that were able to suddenly move markets and dramatically change the valuation of this stock. well, now take that and multiply it exponentially with people that are able to drive fake accounts, whether your analysts around the stock or individual executives of a company, a major bank, for example. how would you be able to run a marketplace without the ability to understand what is and isn't true information? you'd have to shut it down. the same thing can be true in elections. you push any of this forward on our present trajectory without governance, and you are no longer able to differentiate between real information and false. we already saw how just the presence of one fake photograph

of an explosion near the pentagon took a few hundred billion dollars off of u.s. market cap in moments as it spread viral across the internet. we're not even close to the abilities of ai to truly fool sophisticated human beings. that is coming within one to two years in the hands of millions of people. so you don't need to go ten years out. you don't need an existential crisis before you see these tools must be regulated now. i do believe governments understand they have a serious problem. they have political will. they just don't know what to do. it's very different than most of the problems that we talk about these mornings, whether it's immigration or abortion or too much money in politics. people know what the answers are, they just don't have the political will. here it's exactly the opposite.

>> i've seen "oppenheimer" now a couple times. it's a remarkable movie. i saw a screening of it very early on. i was sickened not only by how we knew that movie was going to end, but i just kept thinking about ai and how the governments came together, put their arms around atomic energy, made sure there wasn't a proliferation, that all the obvious dangers would be avoided. i walked out of the theater going, okay, so ai is a technology maybe even more deadly in the long run than an atomic or nuclear weapon. and yet we have people who -- and i'm not being glib here -- who microdose, who talk about

their flamboyant lifestyles. everybody i talk to that works in tech talks about how most of the guys walk around like with these god-like complexes, taking very little advice from other people. they're telling the government when it comes to ai, trust us, we've got this. my question is, when is the federal government -- i'm a small government conservative, but not in this case. when does the federal government step in and put in guardrails on this technology that could destroy us all? >> you're right, joe. with nuclear weapons, it was the governments that were actually driving the technology. no other actors could. when you talk about ai, it is the technology companies and these individuals that have these capacities. now, that definitely means that it's harder to regulate because

the governments don't have the expertise or the resources yet. but it also means the incentives for the governments, ai is a threat to the governments, it's a threat to the system. therefore, the need for these governments to work with the technology companies and force them to engage and coordinate, especially as we start seeing crises, it's going to get a lot higher. we put this piece together in part as a road map. you need to have people engaging in conversations even if they're not ready to implement quite yet. >> ian bremmer, thank you very much. there's one more story we want to get to before we go to break. lawmakers appear to be eyeing a short-term funding bill with a possible government shutdown looming at the end of the month.

during a conference call this week, speaker kevin mccarthy told house republicans he believes congress will have to pass a stopgap measure to keep the government running. >> these lawmakers on different sides of the aisle do seem to be figuring out how to communicate with each other even during a very heated political time. >> very heated political time, marked with investigations of course on capitol hill and in criminal courtrooms. you're right. they're running out of time. they can't get a deal done by the deadline this september, just a handful of weeks away. this would buy them an opportunity to get a deal done. the consensus i've talked to of people in the white house and on capitol hill believe a government was on the horizon. maybe this is the first sign that cooler heads prevail.

both parties certainly recognize the damage that would be done politically to everybody involved were the government to shut down even briefly. maybe there's the beginnings of an off ramp forming. coming up, eric mccormack and alex moffett join us straight ahead on "morning joe." s straight ahead on "morning joe." . when i talk to patients you can just see from here up when you're wearing a mask. and i have noticed those lines beginning to really become not so much moderate but more severe. i'm still wendy and i got botox® cosmetic. and i'm really happy with the results because they're very subtle, and i feel like i look like myself, but just less lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved, to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness

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what about richard, darling? >> he -- he -- he's going to kill you. [ laughter ] >> stop it. [ laughter ] >> stop it the lot of you. why are you laughing? it's not funny. this is serious. he's quite large, you know. he's a dangerous man, there's nothing funny about this.

he's killed all my other lovers. >> that was eric mccormack and alex moffat starring in the new broadway play "the cottage." mccormack is perhaps best known for his emmy award winning role in "will and grace" and as a former snl cast member, alex moffat took on the role of two different joes, president biden, he's good at that, and our very own joe scarborough. >> yeah. >> he was good at that too. >> he was. >> you can see "the cottage," the story about what happens when the love affairs of husbands and wives collide. and eric and alex join us now. we should note that even though they are members of the screen actor's guild, they are able to appear here this among because the actors and writers strikes do not apply to broadway productions. it's great to have you both on

board. >> thank you for mentioning that. >> morning, joe and mika. >> wow, we're here in your studio, and you're not. >> this is true. do you like our studio? >> it's gorgeous. >> we're going to start making up news and just telling america whatever we want. >> this just in, where's that big house behind you? >> we're upstairs. we're on the fourth floor. >> uh-huh. >> so tell us about the play. >> "the cottage." >> it looks absolutely fascinating. >> in the cottage we are beau and clark van kipness. we have so much fun. it's a new play, but it feels very old and lived in. it takes place in 1923 in england, and -- >> it feels very old. >> it feels old. it feels like a revival, but it

also has all the fun of brand new play. it is hilariously funny, particularly alex moffat and we're having a great time at the helen hayes theater. >> couldn't agree more. >> alex, let me ask you, we're seeing here it's such a physical play here, physical comedy, slapstick, and one that obviously you're playing off the energy of that live audience, which of course you also had at "saturday night live." talk to us about the transition to doing it in broadway, and we see that scene there, how do you pull that off night after night? >> i mean, i stretch a lot, you know, i try to stay limber and loose, and you know, twirl my legs around before i go out there, do a couple hundred push-ups. >> you do not -- >> no, i don't, i wish i could. no, doing the show itself is its own workout. it's keeping your boy tight to coin a phrase, but it's a lot of fun out there.

but lilli cooper also is insanely funny and we play off each other a lot. they're playing a lot of spoilers here. why don't you show the whole play while we're at it. >> it's a great team of six of us. >> eric is insanely funny in this thing, our leading man. he's roguish john cleave if you will. when you get back from wherever you are, come on out for a date night at the theater, helen hayes. >> i love that, will you take me? >> right after this interview we'll come down the elevator, and we'll see you guys on the third floor. >> i know donny has a question about the cottage. alex, i need to ask you when you played joe on snl, what did -- did you study his mannerisms? what exactly did you do to prepare for the role? i need to know. >> you need to know? well, first, you know, because of the strike can't really talk about that particular program,

that sketch comedy program. >> got you. >> but in general, you know, look, joe is right in my wheel house. i could have done that on any show anywhere. i basically -- i used to go to all his gigs at prohibition on the upper west side. >> oh, my gosh. >> watch him jam, take notes in the back. >> exactly. >> and we kind of got there from that. yeah, i see you, joe. >> i love that. >> mika, he never went to prohibition. >> that's so cool. >> yes, he did. >> donny deutsch is somewhere in the hamptons and he has a question for you now, donny. >> congratulations. i'm hearing great things. >> you are? >> how do you kind of get it up every night? you're doing this eight shows a week, how do you -- >> donny. >> what? what's the matter? >> oh he was just talking about getting it up every night -- believe me. >> it's not every night anymore. >> how do you kind of keep it

fresh every night? it's the same thing, it's eight shows. i always wonder that, every time i'm at the theater and it's my one time experience andst it time 844 for you. >> yeah, weirdly i was thinking about that last night because we've done 45 performances at this point, and that moment just before curtain where it's like we're going to say all these words again in the same order and then i suddenly had this image of like shakespeare. this has been going on for hundreds of years, what an actor's job is is to make you feel like we're making it up for the first time. i think that's what it is. i get inspired by that's the only job i can do, so i better throw myself into it. >> also, donny, thank you, no one said our show was fresh every night so i appreciate your kind words. and when are we going to get the deutsche treatment? we didn't have to trek in here to 30 rock. i could have been in my living room in the hamptons.

>> you can see "the cottage" on broadway now through october 29th. thank you both very much. you guys are fun. thanks for coming on the show today. take care. and that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports" eight days and counting, the clock running down for donald trump and his allies to surrender at a jail in georgia. this hour the ambitious time line for the trial in that case. plus, a texas woman arrested for threatening to kill the judge in the federal election interference case. the threat, according to police, quote, you are in our sights. also ahead, the death toll from the hawaii wildfires now at 111. 1,000 still missing. the growing demand for an investigation into what happened. and later, another twist in the contentious legal fight over a widely