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- it's possible to hate pushups again. - to feel understood. - to begin healing both inside and out. - to feel like myself again. - and now i know anything is possible. (gentle music) >> all right, tonight on the second hour of "ayman", trump test the limits, the ex presidents relentless threats might be catching up with him. one legal expert says he seems to have already broken the most important condition of his pre trial release. then, the real victims of trump's lies. a special report on the georgia election workers who stood their ground and fought back. and, a dangerous attack on freedom of the press. we're going to speak with the attorney representing a small kansas newspaper, raided by the police and what is being called a blatant violation of the first amendment. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's get

started. but first, we begin this hour with the very latest update on hurricane hilary. national weather service forecasters have downgraded hilary to a category two hurricane. with estimated sustained winds at a maximum of 110 miles per hour. -- gavin usman declared a state of emergency, had -- ahead of hurricane hilary expected landfall tomorrow afternoon. the california emergency management officials warning that there will be power outages across southern california as a result of the storm. according to nbc news is weather unit, up to ten inches of rain in just one day is expected in the santa rosa mountains. that is east of san diego, and mud and rock slides are also expected. we're going to follow this story, bringing you more updates on the trajectory of the storm as we get into our newsroom throughout the evening. shifting gears, we want to talk about some breaking news out of the state of georgia. ex trump white house chief of staff mark meadows, of course, you may recall, he is one of trump's 18 codefendants in the

georgia election interference case. he's just filed a motion to dismiss the charges against him, citing presidential immunity. the filing reads, quote, as a federal official at the time of the charged conduct, he is immune from state prosecution under the supremacy clause of the federal constitution. the filing reads, meadows also argues that the charges should be dismissed based on the first and 14th amendments. we're going to get reaction on that in just a moment, what that means for the case, perhaps others. but we do want to take a step back for a moment and look at the dangerous game donald trump and his allies are playing here. they are launching relentless hateful attacks on the men and women investigating him, and the judges adjudicating his cases. of course, he is called the special counsel jack smith deranged, and a trump hater. he has smeared fulton county district attorney fani willis as corrupt, incompetent, and bizarrely racist. he has posted a barrage of

attacks against the newest target, his newest target i should note, judge tanya chutkan, assailing her as highly partisan. very biased and unfair, and baselessly asserting she, a quote, obviously wants me behind bars. as the new york times notes, lawyers have said that if the former president were an ordinary citizen, issuing these attacks, he would be in jail by now. we cannot draw a direct line between trump's words on the reactions of others, i want you to consider this for a moment. a texas woman was arrested, and she has been charged this week with threatening to kill judge chutkan. in addition to referring to judge chutkan as a quote, slave, this woman in a phone message left at the federal courthouse in washington, said, quote, you are in our sights. we want to kill you. if trump doesn't get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you. so tread lightly. awful. chilling. disgusting remarks.

it comes just a week after the fbi shot and killed a man in utah who allegedly made online threats to kill president biden in manhattan d. a. alvin bragg, while serving a warrant on his home. and this trend is not limited to public officials. this week, nbc news reports that a fringe website featured the purported names and addresses of the fulton county grand jury, that just indicted trump and 18 others for their efforts to overturn the election in georgia. the fulton county sheriff's office says that it's aware that this information is being shared online, and quote, our investigators are working mostly with local, state and federal law enforcement agencies to track down the origin of the threats. now, the atlanta fbi field office says that it is working with the sheriff's office. again, we could not directly link donald trump to these actions, but let's be very clear here. not just rhetoric. these words have consequences. one of the other consequences might actually come in the form of accountability. donald trump being published

punished for his attacks. as -- our and blake writes in the washington post, donald trump seems intent on testing the rules that apply to tampering with witnesses and intimidate judges. despite being warned about such things, he has shown no signs of falling down. effectively daring the legal system to do something about it. and in early august, in federal court in washington d. c., magistrate judge -- told trump that his most important condition of release was not committing a state federal or local crime while on release. now if trump were to do so she warned a warrant judge could be issued for his arrest and he could be detained pending that trial. on trump monday trump posted something that could be -- because just a few hours before the jury grand jury voted to indict him, the now defendant, posted, i am reading the report that the failed former

lieutenant governor jeff duncan will be testifying before the fulton county grand jury. he shouldn't. and as it glenn kirschner, a colleague and friend of the show, right for msnbc.com, here we have trump publicly telling a witness who he knew was scheduled to testify before a grand jury investigating his alleged crime that the witness should not testify, and cutting right to the chase, this is trump -- page out of the -- for dummies -- attempts -- witnesses and specifically -- ten 93 and to note -- attempt to persuade another to influence, delay or prevent the person's testimony in an official proceeding. so now, trump adds to an already distinguished criminal resume, by allegedly attempting to influence a witness in apparent violation of both state and the conditions of his

pre trial release. as glenn kirschner writes, this is only the beginning of a convoluted and lengthy process of justice for donald trump. those involved have a responsibility to apply the law equally, without fear or favor, otherwise his brazen floating of conventions, not to mention laws, may only get worse. joining me now are erin hayes errin haines, a founding member and editor at large at "the 19th", to anna bower, lawfare correspondent, and kendra cotton, of the new georgia project. it's great to have all three of you with us. thanks for -- anna -- i want to get your thoughts on this breaking news we just got into our newsroom. mark meadows vowing to dismiss the charges against him entirely. not just to have the moved to federal court, but now he's saying he shouldn't even be charged for anything he did, because of the supremacy clause of the constitution. >> right. so meadows is arguing that

under supremacy clause, immunity, because he was fulfilling his federal duties as the former chief of staff during the time of the alleged conduct, he therefore cannot be held accountable under a state prosecution. whether or not that is successful, i think is something that's being debated right now by lots of folks that i'm speaking to. there are many different opinions on this, some say he had no chance at success on this, and others saying it is not so clear. what i will say is out of all these defendants, meadows likely has the strongest claim to supplement the clause immunity because the acts that are articulated in the indictment involve things that, if construed one way, a chief of staff usually would do things like setting up phone calls or kind of taking directions from the president

and while meadows will try to focus on really narrowly focusing on that kind of conduct, i think we will see a motion or a filing from fani willis's office that shows how this was all a part of the conspiracy that is alleged in the indictment, that he's alleged to seek to overturn the results of the election. and so i think it is a little bit tough to tell right now how much this will succeed. but, it's to be determined. >> so, tough to tell, how quickly it will succeed, but do we know how it plays out in terms of timeline? do we -- i mean, we just got this motion being filed tonight, i believe, or at least we have learned about it tonight. do you have any sense, anna, how it plays out over the next couple of days? when might the judge schedule a hearing about that? or when is fani willis expected to respond to it? >> right. so, that's one of the unusual

things about this filing coming now is because mark meadows and -- seeking to move a state court criminal prosecution to federal court and that motion is still pending from the federal judge, judge steve jones -- that has not been decided yet and, individual process of things, you would first file the emove, have that decided in, filed a motion to dismiss. however, meadows seems intent on speeding up the process and he makes the claim that as a part of the removal analysis the judge also has to decide whether or not he could potentially have these charges dismissed under the immunity -- that he has raised. and so, therefore, he wants the judge to decide these things together. he has requested a hearing and has a hearing on the removal matter set for august 28th, so it's to be seen whether the judge will set a scheduling order for the motion to dismiss as well, we don't know a whole lot at this point how the

timing will end up working, and how those things will coincide. >> all right, we'll certainly keep an eye on that and see if there's any developments on it. errin, let me get your thoughts on what i started out this segment with. the premise of words having consequences, because as we have seen, the threats in recent weeks against alvin bragg, now judge chutkan, they have real life consequences for the people on the receiving end of those threats. talk about this pattern that is emerging here, and what this means for us as a country and a nation that our law enforcement officials and members of our court and people who investigate those in power are receiving these types of death threats. >> yeah. well, first of all, ayman, it's good to be with you and on a panel of current and former georgians. but you are so right to be raising exactly the issues you are raising. because this case is not just about former president trump's guilt or innocence. one of the issues at the center

of all these cases as, i believe, glenn kirschner raised in his piece, it's whether there really is equal justice under the law. you have district attorney fani willis and others saying despite being a former president, trump is not above the law and that he shouldn't receive special treatment. and this is why you have people raising the question of whether his behavior would be permissible if you were any other defendant. as president, we saw trump constantly floating norms, but this isn't about norms. we can't move into this legal arena, and trump may find that these judges are not as for giving us the court of public opinion. and if i could just make one more point, because you brought it up. these latest developments to do highlight the ongoing threat of political violence on the question of trump's culpability in either promoting or provoking or condoning that kind of violence, whether implicitly or explicitly. i mean, not only is he continuing to rile up his supporters by falsely claiming that the 2020 election was stolen, he's inviting them along in his legal war. and so is not just going to be about rhetoric? or is that going to go further?

and really, can our democracy afford to find? out >> yeah, and listen, to your point, he basically doxxed former president obama by putting his address and low and behold a couple of weeks later a man shows up outside his house with guns and ammunition, and the secret service had to be involved. so, kendra cotton, the dangerous thing here is, yes, it's dangerous for the office of our judicial system, but then you also have the private information of a grand jurors that is being shared online, that is being weaponized by trump supporters. and i've got to say, this is tragically par for the course. in georgia, if you're trying to do your civic duty. >> yeah, it is. so, thank, you ayman, for having me on this evening. i was so pleased when you guys showed the clip, you guys are going to ruby freeman and shaye moss. these are public servants trying to do their jobs. and you had someone who had the perch and the bully pulpit of the presidency, take that bully

to heart. and sat there and cast aspersions on these women when they had done nothing wrong, when in fact, he was the one tampering with the 2020 election. we have him on tape doing so. so and that is the problem he has right now. you can't wiggle out of this one. it is historical that a southern state, georgia, has stepped up behind d a fani willis who has simply gone where the facts have led her. this is not partisan, this is not anyone attacking this man. this is him being held accountable. he was indicted by a jury of his peers, and that is what the court system is for. and i know we talked about, oh, is there a difference for presidents? no there is not. because what i know, and every black and brown person knows in this country, that if barack obama had been caught on tape called the secretary of state, asking him to look for votes to overturn a duly executed election, he would be indicted,

he would have been indicted immediately. he would have been arrested. and so, i am just so proud to be in georgia right now. i am proud that d. a. willis has said her ego aside. she is not concerned about the aspersions being cast. this man got on social media and said that she was sleeping with a gang member. there is no low. there is nothing too low for him. and so this is something that we georgians feel like is just a little bit of retribution and it is my sincere hope that ruby freeman and shaye moss, even though we can't rollback the trauma that was inflicted upon, them i hope they see now that at least someone is fighting on their behalf. >> i certainly hope the law prevails on that and their privacy is respected. anna, if donald trump were, as pretty much any other person in america, not even president

obama, for that matter, at what point would his efforts that we're seeing right now to intimidate witnesses, to harass and threaten judges, to disparage district attorney's result in him being put behind bars? this would not be a conversation we're having if anyone else in this country was making those comments. >> you're right, it's not a conversation we would be having with any other criminal defendant. it's difficult to say where the line is for some of his touches. you know, they're all going to have different considerations in mind. i think with judge chutkan, it's likely will be the case that she will wait until the department of justice makes a motion on the matter, instead of doing something on her own accord. however, she has said that this inflammatory rhetoric will potentially calculate into how fast the trial schedule goes,

so that could be something that trump needs to be thinking about, it's also the case that, you know, all these statements whether or not they open him up to additional criminal liability, they are things that could be included in a recent investigation report. and if he is convicted of federal crimes, then that could be something that the judge takes into consideration when imposing a sentence. so i certainly think that his legal team is probably advising him to temper his rhetoric and whether or not he will continue this pattern, i don't know. but it seems like if past is present for told, foretold it seems like he will continue. so we will see where the line is in the future. >> anna bower and kendra cotton, thank you so much for the both of you for joining us and starting us off tonight. errin haines, please stick

around. i will speak to a little later on in the. program after the break, we are going to continue the conversation and discuss the real victims of donald trump's election lies in georgia. lies in georgia enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. talk to your asthma specialist to see if once-monthly nucala may be right for you. and learn about savings at nucala.com

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becoming all too familiar, following the release of fulton county d.a. fani willis's bombshell bombshell 41 count indictment, donald trump like clockwork took his failed social media site to rail against the charges and once again cast himself as the victim of an unrelenting political witch hunt. now it is language that we have heard before, but what it when it comes to this specific case, trump's insistence on -- playing the victim card is -- and now quadrupled -- not the victim here. in the days, weeks and months following his election loss, trump and his allies employed a desperate scheme to hold on to power and no consideration for the innocent people they took down along the way.

of course there's georgia's republican secretary of state brad raffensperger who are in the presidents higher after he refused to help president trump and his allies find votes to win the election. raffensperger would find his commitment and democracy and the rule of law basically came with a steep cost. his wife trisha raffensperger told reuters how all the threats and intimidation from trump supporters forced the family into hiding for almost a week in late november. the harassment continued for months, often in the form of threatening text messages, including this text that raffensperger received in april 2021 reading, quote, we plan for the death of you and your family every day. there is of course gabriel sterling, back in december of 2020, he's a republican senior election official who held the emotional press conference at the state capital, in which he recounted the death threats and abuse he and others had endured in the weeks since the election. sterling even called out president trump directly and cautioned what could happen if

the violent rhetoric continued. >> someone will get hurt. someone will get shot. someone will get killed. >> perhaps no two people born the front of trump's big lie in georgia more than these two. ruby freeman and shaye moss. in the days after the election, the mother daughter duo, both atlanta election workers, found themselves at the center of one of the most persistent conspiracies spread by trump and his allies. using selectively edited video, trump and rudy giuliani claimed that freeman and moss committed voter fraud by pulling out fraudulent ballots permissive case on election night. giuliani also said freeman and moss passing around usb drives containing votes, quote, like vials of heroin or cocaine during ballot counting operations. trump had referred to the two women more than a dozen times during his call with raffensperger, falsely calling freeman a quote professional vote scammer and hustler. despite georgia election officials immediately debunking

these outrageous claims the lies spread and spread and spread in conservative media like wildfire. last year, freeman and moss testified before the january sixth committee. and they shared how the ex presidents dangerous disinformation campaign nearly destroyed their lives. watch. >> i started my life upside down. i no longer give out my business card. i don't transfer calls. i don't want anyone knowing my name. i don't want to go anywhere with my mom, because she might yell my name at out over the grocery aisle or something. >> there is no way i feel safe. nowhere. do you know how it feels to have the president of the united states to target you? the president of the united states is supposed to represent every american.

not to target one. but he targeted me. lady ruby. a small business owner, a mother, a proud american citizen, who stand up to help fulton county run an election in the middle of the pandemic. >> unlike brad raffensperger and gabriel sterling, officers of the state, ruby freeman and shaye moss didn't ask for this national spotlight. they didn't run for public office. they didn't take on high-profile positions that came with resources and security. they simply volunteered, just as thousands of ordinary americans do every election cycle to help the fellow citizens at the polls and do the work that keeps our democracy functioning here after year. and what things did like it from the president? eight months-long harassment campaign led by the most powerful man in the world. and fortunately it seems accountability is on the horizon unfortunately it

accountability is on the horizon for freeman and moss because last month rudy giuliani was forced to admit in the court filing that he made false statements about the dual manipulating ballots. and now a significant part of this week's indictment focuses on that harassment campaign that targeted them. the indictment charges trump and others with repeatedly and falsely occlusion freeman of committing election fraud with some going as far as traveling from out-of-state to freeman's home to intimidate her and solicit her she falsely confessed to election crimes that she did not commit. freeman's place in the indictment serves as a reminder of the human toll of trump's lies. far too often, when we talk about the ex presidents election interference, we center one victim. democracy. yes, that is important. to acknowledge the damage that trump did to our democracy. and it continues to do to our institutions. but we cannot let the real people he harmed along the way

fall through the cracks. the fulton county indictment lays out in black and white, the ex president's alleged crimes were not victimless. donald trump's big lie has now changed the lives of every day people, like shaye moss and ruby freeman. and it has been changed forever. they deserve accountability. they deserve justice. and they deserve to know that in america, no one, not even a former president is above the law. we'll be right back. after the best nap of my life... and papa is hungry. and while you're hittin' the trail, i'm hitting your cooler. oh, cheddar! i've got hot dog buns! and your cut-rate car insurance might not pay for all this. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, like me. roar. (sfx: family screams in background) (ella) fashion moves fast. setting trends is our business.

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to indict the ex president for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election. that same poll found 53% of americans would definitely not support trump if he was the gop nominee. and another 11% probably would not. that is 64% of all adults in this country saying they likely won't vote for trump in 2024. and that polling was conducted before the georgia indictment. but let's be clear here for a moment, the fact that donald trump, a twice impeached, now four-time indicted ex president, is leading primary polling by 20, 30, even in some cases, 40 points is an indictment on the state of the republican party. joining me now is alina beverley, a political strategist and host of the hour mayers podcast. and erin haines is still with us. which have both of you for this conversation. alina, i will start with you this round. how worried should trump be by those numbers? he is bragging about his popularity now, but he is apparently not taking into account the general electorate. is it going to matter once he gets into the general election,

if he does get into the general election, which i think he will? the small margins that he just has to win states like pennsylvania, georgia, wisconsin, maybe arizona as well. >> that's right, ayman. you're exactly right. the republican party the base is on lock, 74% supported him, or saying that they would support him in november. but the real challenge for him and his real vulnerability is as a general election candidate, because he's going to have to win those independent voters. he's gonna have to win those swing voters. and he, the more that he is speaking to his prosecution and his indictments, and re-litigating his personal grievances, the more he alienates that base, that base that helped to turn georgia blue, that those independents and swing voters have helped to turn georgia blue and other swing states back to the democrats. but those same voters that helped ensure that what was supposed to be a red tsunami was more of a trickle in 2022.

so he has real vulnerabilities when it comes to the general election. his power right now at his apex as a primary contender for the nomination. but once the general election comes around, he has real vulnerability. >> so, erin, the reality that trump's popularity remains high among a quarter of the republican voters. the indictments are not hurting him. according to that ap-norc poll, 74% of republicans said they definitely, probably would support trump if he wins a gop nominee. what does that say about the state of the party, and the gop voters? >> you know, i think it says a lot. i mean, exactly, does this mean that, you know -- definitely wouldn't vote for him. that group of folks. i'm very interested in this 11% that is responding probably would not vote for president trump. much like voter enthusiasm, like, voter enthusiasm, elector enthusiasm doesn't officially mean that they would won't pull

the lever when the time comes. and to your point, ayman, the fact that there have not been any real consequences thus far for president trump, whether we are talking about in a courtroom or on the campaign trail, really only seems to embolden him. so if he's not going to stop his behavior, who is going to reject it? you see people like governor brian kemp, who continues to reiterate to people that the georgia election was among the most, if not the most, thorough examination of election results and the country, and it was declared secure and fair and legal. and that was multiple times. but, you know, voters rejected these kinds of politics in 2020, but it remains to be seen, if they're going to do the same in 2024. and i think, you know, one more thing i would say is that, you know, i think we have to be numb to these attacks that the former president has been making, they are racist and they are gendered a lot of the time. and that's not an accident. it's part of the gop playbook that has been affected with some number of voters in this country. >> alina, there was this recent poll by quinnipiac university

that found the majority of americans, 54%, think trump should be prosecuted on criminal charges. and in a separate question, 68% said that if a person is convicted convicted of a felony, they should not be eligible to be president of the united states. do you think a conviction, in any of these cases, would move the needle among republican voters? >> i think they would. i think that a conviction would obviously, it doesn't make him ineligible for becoming president under the constitution for running, with the exception of the fact that a conviction would solidify that he helped to produce the conspiracy and in many ways foment the insurrection. so, i think that there is a clear appetite for him to be held accountable for that. and by virtue of him being held accountable, the conviction would not prevent him from the, being president. but the article brief of the 14th amendment could

potentially prevent him from being president. >> all, right thank you to the both of. you appreciate your time and insights on that. up next, police raid in kansas threatens bedrock press freedoms. but first, richard louis is here with the headlines. an update now on hurricane hillary. potentially the first tropical storm set to hit california since 1939. it was reduced to a category two storm just this afternoon. it still heads across mexico's west coast, heading north towards california. the national weather service warning it could bring, quote, catastrophic and life-threatening flooding up to areas of rain across parts of the southwest, all in 24 hours. southern californians stocking up on supplies, laying down sandbags, in areas vulnerable to flooding. and they get to the death toll from the maui wildfires climbing to 114 today. it is estimated 1000 people could still be missing. the head of the county's emergency management system percent friday. one major question, what emergency sirens

were not used to lauren warren during the fires. more ayman with ayman mohyeldin right after this break. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ on top of the worlddddd!!! before advil. advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. when pain comes for you, come back fast with advil liqui-gels. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy.

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voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ >> welcome back. it is time for our worst of the weekend. today, there is no competition. it goes to the kansas law enforcement officials who targeted a family-owned newspaper. last friday, police raided the officer of the marion county record, along with the homes of the publisher and the local council woman. and during their search, they seized reporters equipment, including computer servers, even the cell phones, all of which has now been returned after a county attorney found, quote, insufficient evidence for the search warrant.

a group of media companies had also sent a signed letter to marion police chief, gideon cody, condemning the raid, including msnbc's parent company, and we see universal. the raid was in response to information that one of the papers reporters received from a confidential source about eight local restaurant owners drivers license history, which was suspended after a drunk driving citation in 2008. the reporter tried to verify the tips to public records and the restaurant owner accused the paper of using illegal means to acquire information about her. police say they believed an employee at the paper had committed a computer based crime. and today, we have new reporting from the washington post about their justification for the raid. according to sworn affidavits, the marion police chief told the judge that the kansas department of revenue had confirmed to him that that reporter downloaded the private record which would have required her entering personal information.

zorn confirmed to the post that she did download the record. the kansas bureau of investigation is currently looking into whether the newspaper violated state law, but concerns about freedom of this press, they have really risen over the last few days, and with good reason. as the newspaper publisher eric meyer puts it, the police response was bringing the swat team out for jaywalking. joining me now is bernie roads, attorney representing the marion county record. mr. rhodes, it's great to have you on the show. let me start by playing a clip of meyer talking to reporters on wednesday after that search warrant had been lifted. watch. >> we cannot let bullies when. we cannot let bullies when. and eventually, a bully will cross the line to the point that it becomes so egregious that other people come around and support it. i cannot think enough the support that we've got from journalism organizations and news organizations, people in

general, all over this blasted planets just realized this isn't american democracy to do something like this. t >> first, how is this stuff ad mr. myre doing today? i mean, i know they had to work painstakingly long hours this week in order to get the paper out on wednesday without their equipment. and unfortunately, the tragedy of mr. meyer's mom passing on saturday the day after the raid. >> they're doing all right. today was a tough day. today was the day that joe and mayer was laid to rest. but that doesn't mean that the story needs to be later rest. this story needs to remain out there. as eric said, bullies need to be stopped. and more importantly, we need to make sure that the next rogue cop who gets his hair brained scheme in the newsroom thinks twice before they do it again. >> let me ask you about the specifics in the investigation if i can. you've got the kansas bureau of investigation looking into whether someone had breached the kansas criminal justice

information system. and then, there is new reporting from the washington post that expands on that, saying court records show the police chief told the judge that the reporter could not have access to any personal information without either impersonating the victim or lying about the reasons. why the record was being sought. that's the quote in the post. did your client do something wrong here? >> absolutely not. the very first sentence of the kansas statute on drivers license, says drivers license should be sent in the open records act. we all know what the open records act is. that means this information is open. we did not axe access and find her photo, and then went and stopped her. we already knew who she was. we have received a temp giving us her name. it's a small town. they are 2000 people. we knew who she was. drivers record information, driver suspension, do you why convictions, those are public

records, just like, you want your insurance agent to be able to confirm that you don't have 100 traffic tickets because if you do, they are going to cancel your insurance. same thing here. reporters could verify information that is received. that is not identity theft. the chief is just flat wrong. >> what if, you know, what if it had been a more even handed search? was the search at all justified in your opinion, if it was not a raid. i understand mr. myers saying the point, this was like bringing a swat team for a jaywalking offense. you are saying that nothing wrong was done whatsoever that would have warranted any kind of activity from the police. is that right? >> you are right, ayman. nothing was done wrong, first. second of all, even if there had been this jaywalking violation, there's a process in the law for that. it's called issuing a subpoena. you may have -- you've seen the report that in

one of the former investigations of former president trump, the justice department served a subpoena on twitter. they didn't come in with jack booted thugs with a search warrant and sent san francisco officers. they served a subpoena that allows lawyers like me to get involved, that allows the matter to be brought in front of a judge to resolve that. it's not judge jury execution, which chief kody thinks he is. >> let me get your thoughts on the topeka resident who filed a formal complaint against the magistrate judge here who approved the search warrant by police. in her complaint, the resident notes, legal protections for journalists in the county, the county attorney finding insufficient evidence for the search warrant in the first place. what type of accountability could we see stem from this complaint? what do you think would be the right course of action from here on out for your organization? >> well, we need to obtain some

justice for what has occurred. it's great that the county attorney has finally woken up and realized the search was illegal, and avoided it, and we've got the documents, the computers, and the phones back. but you know, it's like putting a tourniquet on your leg after you stepped on a land mine. the injuries already occurred. and the idea that we're gonna get any justice out of the marion police department without suing them seems farfetched since the agenda for monday's city council meeting, the first meeting after this obscene and illegal raid, they put in all caps, we will not be discussing the recent events with 47 exclamation points after it! >> let me get your thoughts on the bigger issue here, and that is the freedom of the press. james arisen, who writes in the intercept, wrote, the unjustified assault on the marion county record is another reminder that press freedom is one of the most important

democratic traditions under threat from trumpism. what do you make of the trend in recent years that has put newspapers and journalists increasingly under threat in this country? >> i have been doing this for 40 years. and i couldn't agree more. the threat is increasing, and it's increased dramatically in the last decade. this is not just a threat to newsrooms, like the marion county record. this is a threat to democracy. i guarantee you, ayman, that there is crooked cops, crooked politicians, unethical businessmen, have gotten away with their misdeeds because people who are afraid to report them to the media for fear that some other policeman would come in and search a news room here, in kansas, in new york, and los angeles, anywhere, and we'll find about that information. sources have dried up. i guarantee you there are crooks who are getting away with what they're doing.

this is a threat to democracy, not just a threat to journalism. >> i couldn't agree with you more. it certainly has a chilling effect, even if this is an unsuccessful raid, and the documents, the computers or everything, turned back. the message it sends is that things like this should never ever be normalized in our country. bernie roads, thank you so much, sir, for joining us tonight. greatly appreciate it. we are still follow the story and check back with you as it develops. >> thank you. >> more ayman, coming up next. man, coming up next. and you realize you're in love... steve? with a laundry detergent. (♪♪) gain flings. seriously good scent. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi.

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