their footprint in africa and u.s. officials aren't confident that he was there even this week despite the video that they released that claimed he was somewhere in western africa. >> he could have recorded that much earlier. courtney, thank you very much. again, this video, the plane where vladimir putin -- i'm sorry, yevgeny prigozhin as being onboard falling from the sky. you saw it a second ago. that will do it for me. thank you for following the bouncing ball of breaking news with us. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york, welcome in wednesday, kicking and screaming for the 19 people indicted in fulton county, georgia, for their roles in what has been described as a criminal enterprise there to overturn the results of the 2020 election. for some more than others, since we last spoke, kenneth chesebro,

an architect of the fake elector plot and ray smith, an attorney who allegedly made claim of widespread fraud went ahead and turned themselves in. they were booked this morning. a few hours after that, attorney sydney powell went next. the advocate released the crack and fame and not even one hour ago we learned rudy giuliani surrendered himself as well to sources with knowledge of the situation confirm his bond is set for $150,000. the video you're looking at, i should say spectacle you're looking at is from a few minutes ago after a defiant rudy giuliani was booked and his latest bookings are notable because as we mentioned a number of other co-defendants are trying their darnedest to evade or at least delay justice being served in what is shaping up door the first major legal battle in the georgia case. former white house chief of staff, mark meadows is begging a judge to protect him from arrest as he seeks to move the georgia

charges against him to federal court. his argument is that potential crimes were committed he says in his capacity as a federal official. late this afternoon, fulton county district attorney fani willis submitted his official response to the request to a judge writing this book, the defendant has failed to demonstrate that he has suffered irreparable harm, warranting intervention in his case and has cited no authority, authorizing this court to prevent his lawful arrest. >> former justice department official, jeffrey clark's legal team is making a similar argument to the one mark meadows is making. they want to avoid, quote, to make rushed travel arrangements to atlanta or risk being labeled a fugitive. jeffrey clark, in response, d.a. willis wrote this, the defendant seeks to avoid the inconvenience and unpleasantness or being arrested subject to the criminal process and provides this court

no legal basis to justify those ends. defendant is wrong on the law, wrong on the facts and the motion should be denied. meanwhile, donald trump in twisted trumpian fashion fancying himself some sort of political martyr today says this, he will proudly be arrested in fulton county tomorrow. so as we sit here today, eight of the 19 people indicted in fulton county have been booked. with more on the way, the endeavor to administer justice is just getting started and it's where we start with our favorite reporters and friends. political reporter and msnbc political contributor greg bluestein is back with us, former aking solicitor general and msnbc journalist neil katyal, msnbc political analyst david jolly is here and nbc's vaughn hillyard is right outside

where it is happening, the jail. vaughn, we start with you. >> nicole, did you say vaughn? i'm sorry. it's been a chaotic afternoon. >> we start with you. >> we start your show on a chaotic note here because these sirens have been going off. rudy giuliani, exited his vehicle said he was going to talk to reporters one place, instead was surrounded by dozens of cameras and reporters trying to get some questions to him and try to put some coherent thoughts together around his intended defense because for rudy giuliani he was essentially propagating the numerous conspiracy theories that we have heard him bring to the forefront over the last three years including several of the voter fraud games that led to the very criminal charges, or i should say, the voter fraud claims that he tried to use as legitimacy to enact an effort to potentially

overturn the election right here, outside of the jail after surrendering to authorities on state charges. this, for rudy giuliani, was defiance. i asked him very explicitly whether he acknowledged making false statements. he said it was, quote, a total lie. in large part, rudy giuliani complicates his own case because just one month ago in the defamation case from shay moss and ruby freeman, rudy giuliani in the filing said that he would not contest the fact that he had made false statements about voter fraud as it pertained to those two fulton county election workers. roourj rudy giuliani says he did not challenge it for court and so for him right here, he is now having to raffle around the reality that he could

potentially be looking at years ahead of the trial in which he now has two attorneys and one is georgia and he's not necessarily committed to working on his behalf through it all, but he just had to go through the formal booking process like the other defendants, getting his mug shot, getting his fingerprints here in the middle of a 96-degree afternoon in georgia, nicole. >> there's something about rudy giuliani who wields has experience as someone who in his own view was a member of law enforcement in a competent manner, being fingerprinted and booked and something particularly rich about it. he doesn't look like the same figure from his law enforcement years. he looks like rudy giuliani, making a broke pilgrimage to mar-a-lago asking trump to pay his legal bills. i wonder whether the -- the sort of defiance was cohesive or coherent or whether it was sort of political in nature.

>> it is -- can we go with both? [ laughter ] i'm not one to -- >> political defiance. that's a thing, yes. >> sorry. i did not mean cohesive. i meant incohesive. i want to be careful in the way that i speak about the former mayor and i realize there is a lot of pressure that is on somebody that has been criminally charged, but the mayor has struggled to formulate a coherent defense for himself, and that is why late into last night there were still questions about who his own counsel was. we were able to catch his attorneys leaving the district attorney's office and again, i go back to the georgia counsel here and i asked him whether he intends to stick with rudy giuliani through the ordeal and he said he was want yet ready to make that commitment. this is a complicated case and we has one political adviser and it lasts like an hour and a half every night in which rudy

giuliani either from new york or florida sort of ram bells about either his own political being or joe biden's political being, and it's very tough to try to convey to you and the audience what rudy giuliani's path is and what his defiance is and whether he'll stand with trump through and through and he'll stand by the case that he was in the right in the 2020 election and the allegations levied by fani willis. >> i think you made a profound new way to talk about trump surrogates and this sort of incotheerent defiance is what they are and do, and i know exactly what you're talking about and totally incoherent about why. i feel like i glossed over

something really important and factual and legal in nature and that is that when you were putting to him is really important in the context of the crimes he was focused for today and that was a separate case, a defamation case brought by the two election workers, ruby freeman and shay moss where his current position in that case is essentially that he -- that these things were false so that he's trying to not end up where fox did with dominion sort of sustaining the known falsity piece which cost almost a billion dollars to fox news. even rudy would concede he doesn't have a billion dollars to spare. tell me how that will work against him in defending himself from these specific charges where that's one of the counts that has been levied against him. >> right. the exact line here from the filing was, quote, the defendant, giuliani, for the purposes of this litigation only, so to rudy giuliani's defense, the district attorney would have difficulty using

his -- his -- his decision to not contest the past statement, but i want to read this again, the defendant giuliani, for the purposes of this litigation only does not contest that, to the effect that the statements were statements of fact, such actual, factual states were false and those were the statement as it pertains to that specific case and giuliani did not allow him state the constitutionality to the statements he made in 2020. there are distinctions that legal folks get into, but rudy giuliani is making the case that he was constitutionally able to make these false statements and in this specific deaf magsz case is not going to try to fight it in a court of law that there were false statements and he did not admit to making false statements. i leave you with that. i'm going to hajj on to incor

herent defiance all night long. if you want to stick around, stick around a couple of minutes longer. i want to pull in neil katyal on the legal aspects of this. of course, as a narrator it's completely incoherent, but it seems to reveal this legal twister that rudy is engaged in if full view of the press and public seems like a pretty blatant tell that he's really racking up the legal exposure and legal problems. >> that's exactly right, nicole. it's a giuliani versus giuliani, and you know, he's got a technical legal argument that he admitted he was lying only for the purposes that proceeding last month and they can strictly be used against them in the criminal prosecution, but remember, rudy is out there in the cameras and he's not talking in the court. he's talking to the public and it's absolutely admissible in

trying to understand what rudy's coherence defense is. he doesn't have one and whatever he said today contradicts what he told the court last month and so he may have a strict legal argument, but in terms of the court of public opinion and in terms one of these guy who use to be one our most respected mayors and one of our most respected prosecutors goes over to the dark side. a speederman prince approximately pal, and it is given greatest responsibility in years and this guy blew every part of it. they're calling it an act of patriotism. you can sigh they're some sort of supermodel photo shoot and whatever other nonsense they want, but at the end of the day they're facing very serious criminal charges for trying to

install a coup and hijack the election and take our vote away from us and all of the bloviating and four seasons landscaping style of behavior that they have is not going to hide that fundamental basic fact and that's what we're seeing play out with the cameras today and what we'll see playing out tomorrow in front of the cameras. >> i want to deal with some of the substance of what he's saying because it is not true. before he left and this is a statement. i'm not going to play it. i'm just going to read it. they're destroying my right to counsel and my right to be a lawyer. they're destroying his right to counsel, his being trump. it's not accidental that they indicted all his lawyers. he goes on to say i've never heard of that. it doesn't happen in america. >> pat cipollone didn't get that and they're two star witnesses into the coup that they're charged with helping to make happen. >> richard donohue, there are tons of lawyers who didn't get

charged with crimes and only the lawyers that helped trump carry out the crimes. can you talk about how dangerous it is to suggest that lawyers are now being targeted in an unprecedented way? >> yeah, rudy is right. it's no accident that trump's lawyers are being targeted. it's because he picked not lawyers, he picked henchmen to help the coup. we have that decided in d.c. with the federal judge who said attorney-client privilege should be purist with respect to the stolen documents investigation because these attorneys were in on the helping and that's what's happening right now with, for example, john eastman or jeff clark. these are not people zealously advocating for their client. that's what eastman said i was zealously advocating for my

client. no, they filed 62 lawsuits and lost them all. that's lawful means. they were trying to go outside of the courts. we lost 62 times all of the way up to the u.s. supreme court and now we'll do something extra judicial and that was this whole plot to have fake electors and to have all sort of violence as roger stone called for to try and super charge their bogus legal theory to say there's a cloud over the election and now it's up to legislatures and not we, the people to pick the next president. i mean, that is as corrosive a thing as you can imagine american democracy, they're not happening because he took a sacred principal we have which is our right to self-determination and what we fought about and he spit on it and he did it in a way that just

benefited himself to self-deal, use his executive power to help himself keep in power for another term. >> as i watch them make their way. to the jail, as they make their way to the jail, they're there because a couple of republicans in the state of georgia who were enthusiastic trump backers who worked for his re-election and supported what he was for and because he was popular in georgia and they supported him in his campaign to be president. they're the reason he's there and without raffensperger making that tape public and for testifying for what fani willis condition veened. i'm not sure that they wouldn't be swept up for their role in a criminal earn prize. is that lost for people in

georgia? >> even in the 2022 campaign stacy abrams said look, we shouldn't reward brian kemp because he wasn't a traitor. if you have someone who was willing to promote these lies and election fraud conspiracies you could have had a governor who didn't certify joe biden's win and that's what governor kemp did. he tried to overturn and invalidate georgia's elections results and carter didn't do that, and if we'd had a different secretary of state yould have urged brad ravens purgatory find just enough votes to overturn his election defeat. >> greg, i feel we tracked you down in your car and all these places where you have generously turned on the camera and helped us understand what happened in georgia. on a personal level, what does it feel like to see all these figures that have become national news because of their effort to find, you know, 11,780

votes in georgia and other places for trump. what does it mean to see them make the pilgrimage to the jailhouse. >> i was thinking, what was one of the biggest stories we've ever covered? it was 2020, and i was at the capitol when rudy giuliani was promote being to u.s. capital, is that where the pick elect are electors andy stumbled avenue that meeting and it is unique and to see it inup close cl and perjury at the jail as donald trump faces the music. it is for the republican to see

if a four-times indicted individual will be the leader of the republican party. the judge said something yesterday that sort of imprinted in my brain and made me sort of re-think how we cover these stories. he said these cases are not political in nature. these people have been indicted for grave crimes that they committed. this is not a political story. it is a grave criminal story. >> yeah, about corruption and the use of corruption to trial to steal an election and to disenfranchise voters in the state of georgia and as neal rightly pointed out, and as means more more real, and for powell and others who are going through the process of being arrested and i'm curious, with 19 co-defendants, there's thisser thatty in criminal practice when e shely, it's

harder for fannie willis to bring her prosecution and she has evidence that she's gathered over the next months and years. if all 19 stay on it, the likelihood of all 19 sticking together on this is pretty low, and so i think what you have to start to look at is who begins to break? who begins to say all of this was at the direction of donald trump because if i'm lower in the group of 19, either i can't afford a criminal attorney. i want to stay out of jail or any deal is good enough to keep me with my family. i think as this gets more real for the co-defendants that's what we start to look for. >> the other thing is they may not all want to abide by the -- the delay strategy only works for one guy. it only works for trump. some of them may want their families and their kids may want their lives back. >> that's right. >> you have one of the washington figures, mr. chesebro filing a motion for a speedy trial says this, state law requested by a defendant sets a

firm time limit in which to set a fair trial. mr. chesebro, that he intends to avail himself of that righ. mr. chesebro remains confident, blah, blah, blah, but at a process level they're sprintering. >> because it represents the individual self-did of each defendant and the interest of that defendant is different than the interest of donald trump and not only on the procedural calendar, but in substance, as well. some of these people were election workers, party officials and so forth, and if their central defense is i believed in this counsel i received. fani willis will say that's not true,io knew better and if you'll give me probation or keep me out of jail to say yes, it came down from giuliani, trump and others and out of the 19, some people will take that deal. >> who do you think is first? >> i think it's going to be someone we don't know. i've made my opinion on mark

meadows. i think he's working with jack smith and can he alleviate that? maybe, maybe not. and lower down, people who aren't a household name. >> it's like a scene from the movie when they get home from fingerprinted, oh, honey, this isn't what i signed up for. >> when i got my republican volunteer card. welcome to today's republican party. >> yeah. this is who they are. greg bluestein, thank you so much for joining us on this historic day. neal katyal, thank you for joining us and vaughn hillyard for taking us inside the chaos as it was happening. thank you always, always, my friend. david jolly sticks around for the hour. when we come back we'll switch gears completely and turn to the stunning breaking news out of russia today where our state media is reporting that wagoner boss yevgeny prigozhin was on the passenger manifest of a plane that crashed today, two

months to the day after he launched his mutiny against vlad meier putin. plus eight republican stand ad, were in the first primary debate and what tonight could reveal about the threat of the party for the american democracy. it's an idea gaining traction the or the right could be barred from his role in the capital insur ekz. we'll tauj about how that works and how to operationalize that legal theory and what it means for the 2024 election. all of that when "deadline white house" continues. don't go anywhere today. contins don't go anywhere today. (crashing sounds) everyone's gonna need more tide. it's a mess out there. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. -see? -baby: ah. -dad, what's with your toenail?

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we are, of course, following the breaking news out of russia that yevgeny prigozhin was on the manifest on a plane that crashed northeast of moscow, exactly two months to the day since he led his mercenary wagner group in a brief, chaotic, deadly armed uprising. we should note that the news that prigozhin may have been on the plane is solely based on reporting on russian state media. we continue to wait for confirmation from u.s. officials and the national security council is out with a statement on how we got here. it says, quote, we have seen the reports. if confirmed, no one should be surprised. the disastrous war in ukraine led to a private army marching on moscow and now, it would seem, to this. here was president joe biden last hour when asked whether putin may have been involved. >> i don't know for a fact what happened, but i am not

surprised. >> do you believe putin is behind this, sir? >> there's not much that happens in russia -- i don't know enough to know. >> joining us now, retired four-star army general msnbc military analyst barry mccaffrey. i feel like i got to talk to you the day this happened, and you predicted that -- again, we don't know if prigozhin is dead and we don't know for sure who did it, but you did predict that he would not live much longer than the mutiny in moscow. >> well, to put it in context, putin has murdered opponents for decades now in the clumsiest possible manner. people are allegedly in hospitals that sailed out of a high window in a wheelchair and poisoning people in the uk,

murdering people within eyesight of the kremlin. i think prigozhin's ultimate crime was not marching on moscow to the central government, it was saying to the russian people on social media, this war was a fraud. nato didn't cause it. we caused it and it was for corrupt purposes. so it's hard to image inhow he could possibly be left there. it looks as if putin has successfully dismantled the wagner group, largely, taken away their tanks, their heavy weapons. some are in belarus, some of them were scattered around and it also appears that probably the gru will take over the africa criminal enterprises, but hopefully prigozhin was killed, not that that materielly, the only thing we should care about is the ability for ukraine to defend itself against russian

criminal aggression. >> it was important context that you helped provide to me on the day of the mutiny that prigozhin as the leader of the wagner group, is more brutal, even than the brutality and the war crimes that putin carries out. so it wasn't about a figure that represented any departure, but he is a figure that had his own power base, very popular among a lot of the russian people and extremely well regarded among the russian army. how does putin deal with any fallout if he's behind this of killing him? >>. >> well, i think the post important thing is putin has spent the last several months is ensuring himself that the agencies of coercion are in his hands, the national guard, the gru and the fsb, the interior ministry, the city police, never mind the armed forces. he would not have acted until he was sure he could -- he could

sustain his power base which is people with guns, but i think you make a good point, nicole, that prigozhin was quite the popular public figure probably to include among the young soldier draftees conscription into the russian army, and he was prepared to be at the front and he was striking out about corruption, directly attacking their own leadership of being stupid and corrupt and astonishing display of populism, and then, of course, as we watched him advance on moscow, he was largely unopposed by russian military units and it was greeted by great acclaim by the population, so putin will be very careful and he'll probably have little to say about it and others will have to claim it was an accident. by the way, we're assuming that prigozhin was on that aircraft. he's a wiley coyote, and i

suppose it's remotely possible he survived that. >> we know that he was on the manifest. we know that the plane on which prigozhin's name was on the manifest crashed and it appears that it would be very difficult to survive if he was on that plane and we do not know what role putin had in any of this. you heard from the american president saying not much happens in russia without his fingerprints on it. two months to the day, putin does carry out symbolic atrocities around days that mean something to russia. i'm never not astounded boo the american party's comfort with russia and russia's leader vladimir putin and news cycles like this, a lot them prefer putin to american democratic party leaders. >> you're right. we don't know if prigozhin was on the plane. some would suggest why would you ever get on the plane -- >> drink another sip or get in an elevator.

>> what we been vladimir putin and about russia and koos are handled differently in russia than they are handled in the united states and we're seeing in georgia today what due process looks like and we know in russia there is not due process and when a nation shreds a constitution that affords any personal liberties and protections and the ability to challenge authority. obviously, the gap where the u.s. is with its challenge is and where russia is significant and it's a reminder to protect our own democracy and as the republican party has made in the last year, being sympathizers with russia, they have hard sdgzs to make today. >> on that note, i'll give you the last word. >> say that again, nicole? >> i'll give you the last word. >> putin surrounded himself with incompetent thugs, they're a maria organization. the russian people are extremely

sophisticated and capable, science, mathematics, the arts, literature, the courage of their military has been legendary and yet they're surrounded by people like putin and prigozhin who basically are murderous thugs. >> wow. i'm glad we let you put that exclamation point on this and for helping us understand and i know you've been on the air all afternoon, general barry mccaffrey, thank you so much. we'll turn back to news here at home after a break. how the republican candidates are set to debate one another tonight stack up on one of the most important issues of the moment. the health of our democracy. that story's next. that story's x

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ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. >> american democracy cannot function unless there are two robust, healthy, political parties. today we do not have two healthy, robust, functioning, political parties, and so for that reason alone, american democracy is in peril. >> a chilling, deliberate, thoughtful warning from conservative judge michael

luttig on this very program yesterday on the threat to american democrat see posed by one of the two political parties in our country. the state of that other party will be on full display tonight over on fox news when eight of the 14 republican candidates for the nomination will take the stage in milwaukee for the first 2024 republican primary debate. donald trump won't be there. he's the party's friend front-runner based on polls. his shadow and what he's turned his party into is sure to loom large. joining our conversation, co-founder and executive director of protect democracy, ian bassen is here with us. joining david and me at the table, new york times domestic correspondent, nick corsonini. i have this idea that before we all lose our minds in the personalities of the republican primary and there are a lot and there's lots to say and the conspiracy theories and the sort of the national a dreenl glands

could be charged every 15 minutes with the outrageous things they say and maybe we should pump the brakes and evaluate them for a scorecard and who is back for democrat democrat see and who will back the fbi and who will jail their political opponents and who will pardon donald trump and i wonder if you and your organization have started thinking and looking at the republican candidates for president in that way? >> i think you can divide the candidates on stage tonight on those metrics into essentially three groups. the first would be the trumpists, the full-on, wanna be trumps and there are two people in that category and that's ron desantis and vivek ramaswamy. our board of scholarly advisors in the beginning of 2017 put together as you suggest a road map of what is the playbook that these modern autocrats do from venezuela to hungary and if you

look to those, and they politicize institutions and quashed, and they stigmatized and delegitimized vulnerable groups and they incite desantis, as he's governed florida has checked off an awful lot of those boxes from an attempt to interfere from the independent law enforcement powers of local district attorneys and the imposition of speech codes, of what people can say and not say in businesses and schools and the creation of election police and even the use in violent rhetoric at a rally and he talked about if he is elected what he would do at the deep state would start, quote, unquote, slitting throats on day one and it is the rhetoric that healthy, democratic politicians use in the healthy democracy and of course, ramaswamy has been leading the charge to pardon or drop charges against trump other

ands who engaged in the insurrection on january 6th and we know where that leads, right? famously, a former political leader who tried to absolve a coup plotter of charges for plotting the coup was from a venezuelan president rafael caldera who famously in 1994 tried chavez and chavez walked out of jail and right into the presidency and dismantled the longest-serving south american democracy. >> please, keep going, yeah. >> yeah, the trump footsie playersings and nikki haley, tim scott, mike pence and doug burgum and they're trying to have it both ways. sometimes they do incredibly righteous things like when mike pence refused to overturn the election on january 6th and on the other hand, mike pence refused to cooperate with the january 6th committee and none of them will actually say that

trump is unfit for office and they wouldn't vote for him. they're all refusing to say the obvious thing and trying to have it both ways and finally, there's a category of opponents of trumpism and frankly, trying to protect democratic institutions and that's chris christie and asa hutchinson and good for them for what they're doing, but i think the one thing they need to realize is that over the last six years, a number of other politicians have tried the sort of courageous solo ride against the barricades of trumpism and mitt romney and chris christie and they failed because they didn't organize a coalition and it's always been a solo rider on a horse. it's not going to take the horse to the feed, and it will take a cavalry to start organizing. >> we'll put all of those time because nick, your beat has been tracking the voter suppression laws and you can't get any normal republican to point to a

single evidence of fraud, yet they're all for election integrity laws which are, you know, thinly veiled suppression laws and they make illegal drop boxes that are the most secure votes that usually come in in any state, but their support for the election integrity laws and their attacks on the free press and they sort of sync up with those internationally recognized signs and standards that endanger democracy. >> yeah. we're seeing this continue. this year -- >> right. >> i think there was 11 states last 13 restrictive voting laws which is the most in decades except for 2021, we saw the big surge following the 2020 election. >> what was the 2021? >> it was about 22 and 24, i think, i might be off by two. >> i think we were a total up to almost 40, right? >> yeah. it's all sense then and almost all of them have the preamble of we need to do this to restore trust in elections and trust

that was destroyed mostly by former president trump so this movement is continuing, and i think if you want to see where else in the party how deep it is, yes, trump is leading by 30 to 40 and his campaign is so much about the rigged election and when i saw him in new hampshire he used the word rigged half a doz a coding to my transcript, and when you see what's happening, you might see how deeply this is rooted and the michigan republican party nominated christina caramo, and the secretary of state was an election denier and she lost. that party basically broke and it was by infighting and they're not doing anything to fix it. they're still clinging. >> that's ian's point, that you can't defeat it with a horse or one guy. you need to put the cavalry behind and and you're not seeing that with the parties. >> no, you're seeing the exact opposite. you are seeing the activists so obsessed with the 2020 election that they're driving the parties

into the ground and risking their electoral success and all of the deals they claim to really care about and want to get past are almost being thrown out the window in the name of this kind of broad election denialism that's really gripped a bunch of state parties and not just michigan. you have georgia, minnesota, colorado. >> wisconsin. >> yeah. you can really find it in a bunch of states and i think that really shows how deep and persistent this is. >> david, what i want to ask you and i have to sneak in a quick break, i could talk about this for the whole two hours and i think we need a radical transformation about how we cover this campaign. >> at the personality level, there's plenty to say about all of them, but the metrics that you and nick are talking about are the ones that force us to think what kind of country we want to live in. do we live in a country where there's no judiciary and free press and you remind me of the attack on business and we'll have that conversation in a

second. no one's going anywhere. we will all be right back. ere. we will all be right back. (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon.

(christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. we are back. on the campaign, the panel is back. you are now with me in this sort of truth vs. delusion on the right. even the good guys, even the the ones that make ian's select yule list of people sort of confronting trump have to

wrestle with the position. they have signed a a pledge to support the nominee. >> even people of conviction have allowed this to occur for reasons of their own partisan loyalty. with saw pieces of that in our exchange with asa hutchinson. we would be expecting too much on the debate stage for the editorial approach from fox to approach this as democracy in peril. i do think we will see some perspectives though. a very easy brush at the outset would be you each signed pledge and trump didn't. that will give us an indication. do you think the 2020 election was fairly decided? that will give us an indication of where these leading candidates are in terms of the basics of protecting democracy. anyone there who is siding with trump is siding with the approach, as we have discussed, that is crushing the independents of the institutions that protect our democracy. it gets to this question we were discussing over the break. are we at an existential moment

where we're resilient enough to get through this? if we fail to recognize the departure of those two themes, we may miss the moment to protect the last 200 plus years. >> you both know my answer. what's yours? >> we have to frame it as an existential moment. >> it is. is this an existential moment. could the country survive another four-year trump presidency? would it necessarily be a four-year trump presidency. he doesn't have any deference or regard for the transfer of power or the constitution. >> i think trump has made clear if he's restored to the presidecy, he won't leave while he's alive. i do think it's an existential moment. the book talk about the fact that the a abdication of political responsibility by those in power would face a larger threat is normally the first step on the road towards autocracy.

we have seen that from the leadership of the republican party and most of the people on stage tonight. this is what don't understand. albert einstein said the definition of insanity is trying to the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. for the past six years, gop leadership has thought they could accommodate trump, appease trump, not confront the elephant in the room of the threat to democracy, cater to and placate his base, and somehow he would leave the stage and they would regain the party. that has failed over and over again. are they going to continue behaving in that insane way or change? >> appeasement, there's no example in human history of appeasement working in a geopolitical context. at a human level, there's no example of enabling behavior to lead to anything more functional or healthy. the republicans are nothing if

not appeasers and enablers. >> look at the 2016 election. ted cruz tried this and failed and trump won. so all of these different candidates who ian called them playing footsie with trump, they are following a policebook that failed spectacularly. if you're talking about this threat of democracy and how these republican candidates are approaching it, you can also just see how much the game has changed. you didn't see mitt romney talking about fraud or cheating in every election every election and we need to fix it. they are still talking about this fraud and cheating and things that don't exist in our electoral system to the degree at which they say they do. that's become norm in the base. that's kind of how much everything has shifted. even the ones seen as standing up for democracy are still saying these antidemocratic things. that shows just kind of how much the resilience and the appeasement has infected the entire field. >> one of the most alarming

things is the politicization of the rule of law. rudy giuliani just had this happen. this is his mug shot. that's rudy giuliani. some think of him as america's my your. some remember him as a prominent u.s. attorney at sdny. he's now been booked for his role in a criminal enterprise in the state of georgia. >>e toy remain a nation of laws. no individual is above those laws. that is being tested in the indictments of donald trump and tested in georgia and in the jack smith case. i think the hope that many are looking for is we can protect the rule of law in the country through this process. >> ian, i want to come back to you on this question of four indictments. there's some people who think they are going to be a distraction. they seem central to our ability to make a sound choice, if we want to continue to live in a democracy after 2024. >> the fall of 2020 before the

election happened, our organization conducted some research to look at what is history in international experience teach about the best way to avoid the recurrence of high level aud democratic abuses in a government. is the path to look forward, not backwards? to look for unity and not the vision and not look back at the past. or is the right recipe to look at what happened and engage in a regime of accountability to prevent it from happening again? the results were very clear. when you talk to those who have looked at this happening around the world, if you want to increase the chances that you won't see a recurrence of those, accountability is essential. and accountability takes multiple forms. it takes the form of criminal indictments, and takes the form of truth-telling commissions like the january 6th committee. it takes the form of the private sector stepping up famously

after a watergate. they increased ethics rules for lawyers. every part of society has a role to play. and the indictments we're seeing are the rule of law doing its crucial job. without it, the risks to our democracy are far greater. >> i feel like every word that you have to say is so essential to helping us cover this time responsibly. we're going to try to pull you into these conversations as often as we can. thank you very much for being here today. thank you so much for being here. coming up for us in the next hour, some legal scholars say donald trump can't be president. he's barred from running. how does that work? we'll have a working session and try to figure it out, after a

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if there's one thing i could tell the country today that the effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election was not and is not politics. this is, a as we now know from the indictments, these were grave crimes against the united states of america. perhaps almost as grave as would have been treason. hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york in a profound and revelatory interview on this program at this hour yesterday, that was

conservative former judge michael ludwig who gave us a lot to think about and mull. a republican party that, in his mind, no longer exists as a political party. about how the ex-president wanted to be indicted so he could continue running for president on the false platform that the election was somehow stolen from him. one of the most striking and intriguing things the judge spoke of was how donald trump no longer qualifies to run for president. in the same way that a person running to lead the nation needs to be at least 35 years old, needs to be a natural born citizen, he or or she must have not attempted to overthrow the government. the last requirement is according to the amendment, but it's a condition that needs to be enforced. the judge described the actual means by which this qualification could be carried out. listen to what he said. >> i believe to a certainty there will be secretaries of state in several of the states

who will decline to place the former president on the ballot, arguing that he is unqualified by vir virtue of section 3 of the amendment.r those officials qualify the president, former president or disqualify him, that decision will be immediately challenged in state or federal court by a person withstanding to challenge it. it would certainly include the former president, and from that moment on, this will be a matter destined for the supreme court of the united states. >> in the 2020 election, it was secretaries of state who stood firm in the face of excruciating pressure from the ex-president. he was president at the time and his allies. they were the ones that upheld the integrity of the vote in

their states. and the courts didn't crumble either under direct pressure from trump. even trump-appointed judges ruled against him and his campaign in court in the lawsuits he filed after the 2020 election. now, if you believe this theory being placed before us as a country by people like the judge, there's a strong chance they could all be put to the test again in 2024. we're sorry ahead of time. presenting a monumental question before the united states of america, will the rule of law and will our democracy stand again? that question is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. attorney and founder of the site democracy docket mark alice is here. and with me is democratic strategist former party executive director baa sill

smooik the. but i want to back up a minute. i found myself googling the 14th amendment yesterday bifr interviewed the judge. he actually sent it along to aid me. let me read it to everybody. 14th amendment, section 3, no person shall be a senator or representative in congress, or elector of president and vice president or hold any office, civil or military, under the united states, or under any state, who, having taken an oath, as a member of congress or as an officer of the united states, as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or ju durable officer of any state to support the constitution of the united states, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. but congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each house remove

such disability. mark, tell me your thoughts on the sort of theory or argument. >> yeah, i think it's unquestionably correct. this has become an increasing consensus. i wrote something for democracy docket within a week of january 6th, 2021, in which i called for congress to immediately expel a significant numbers of members of congress who violated this clause and were no longer eligible to hold office. i continue to think they are no longer eligible to hold office. if you look at the activities of josh hawley holding up his fist in support of the insurrection, as it was going on, is that not providing aid or comfort with insurrectionists. the role of the former president clearly qualiies as

disqualifying him. but to be clear, it's not just people like me or people like the judge or professor tribe two very conservative federal society professors in good standing federal society professors recently wrote a very per swas i have law review that said donald trump and probably others, including members of congress, are disqualified under the 14th amendment from holding office, and they should not b allowed on the ballot. >> let's go as deep as we can. it was riveting when he put it out there, but we sort of spent the last 24 hours doing some of our homework. i want to read this from the peace piece that the judge wrote. the disqualification clause indicates and independently of impeachment proceedings and legislation. the clause was designed to operate directly and immediately upon those who betray their oaths to the constitution,

whether by taking up arms to overturn the government or by waging war on the government to attempt to overturn a presidential election through a bloodless coup. this wasn't even that, but i just want put everybody in a time capsule and show you the two republican leaders in congress blamed for january 6th. this is kevin mccarthy and mitch mcconnell. >> he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. >> january 6th was a disgrace. american citizens attacked their own government. they used terrorism to try to stop a specific piece of domestic business they did not like. there's no question, done. he is responsible for provoking

the events of the day. no question about it. >> the facts are not in put. we need a therapist plan to vote for trump if he's the nominee. in terms of establishing the facts to sort of apply the 14th amendment, the facts are not in dispute by anybody. >> i think that's right. it is not in dispute if you look the at the history of the 14th amendment and its plain text, it is self-affection waiting. in other words, there's no role for congress to play in having to pass a law because there is a constitutional amendment that has text. you don't need a separate law. there's no role for the courts to play in the sense of requiring a criminal conviction. the 14th amendment doesn't speak about people convicted of

oompbss. it is self-executing in that a person in this instance the former president and others who engaged in insurrection, or gave aid and comfort, they are simy disqualified. they are not eligible to hold office. so the only question is whether or not the secretaries of state and the other state officials, whose responsibility is to uphold the constitution and apply it, whether or not they are going to do that because the former president is simply not eligible to be on the ballot in 2024. >> the judge made that analogy. he said it's like the requirements you have to be 35 years old. it's black and white. secretary benson, let me show you what your counterpart in a

georgia said about the obligation of someone in his job and your job to follow the constitution. >> why didn't you just quit and walk away? >> because i knew we had followed the law and followed the constitution. i i think sometimes moments require you to stand up and just take the shots when you're doing yb job. that's all we did. we just followed the law and the constitution. at the end of the day, president trump came up short. i had to be faithful to the constitution. that's what i swore to do. >> so i know this conversation is in its earliest stages being put out there this week, but what questions would you have if this is what the constitution would require folks like yours to do? >> thank you. that's the right way to frame it

right now. first and foremost, i want to be clear. i'm going to follow the law. what the law says is what is going to dictate how i and uh-uh hope all of my colleagues proceed in this moment. in particular, around thorny issues like one. that means being very careful, making decisions not from a political standpoint but a legal standpoint and asking questions like about due process. a conviction is used to determine the facts and solidify the facts when someone is deem ineligible when there are perhaps thorny issues at play. if we're not going to predicate this on a conviction under the law, how do we ensure due process? how do we redefine rebellion? and what potential guardrails do we need to have in place so this is not a precedent that could be created if this legal interpretation is adopted. how can we avoid that being

weaponized by officials who want to block candidates from the ballot simply because they disagree with them politically. so this is a challenging issue, but i should emp fiez particularly those in the secretaries in battleground states, i'm going to be talking with them because we know, in particular in our states, the impact that this decision could have not just among our voters, but in the nation. so we're taking this seriously. we're looking at it carefully and weighing all the issues at play. >> what is your sense? where would that direction and interpretation of the law come from? would you predict that a supreme court ruling on this would have to come down so that people like secretary benson and secretary rafrens berger have clarity on what they have to do?

>> it's to punish criminal behavior, which is why there's a presumption of innocence and a requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, right to a jury, there are all kinds of protections that are put in place for the unique process that can a after all deprive someone of the interest. not being deprived of liberty or thrown in jail for it. we need to be careful about establishing a burden here that really doesn't exist in this provision of the constitution. but i do agree with the secretary that there are -- ewe need to have guardrails to look at to determine was it an insurrection. did the person engage in insurrection or provide aid to the enemies thereof. those are factual arguments that

have to be hashed out. i have no doubt that the courts will have to hear any challenge. they may hear a challenge by a candidate who is deprived from the ballot. that they wrokfully allowed the person on the ballot. it can go either way, but i suspect the courts will be involved in sorting it out. >> which is amazing. it's amazing when we hear that the united states supreme court may have to render judgment on what an insurrection is. that they may have to render judgment that donald trump, whose fingerprints are all over the makeup of the supreme court, it's amazing to me and tragic to me that the members of this court have cared more about bolstering their own integrity. they watched it plunge. we need people in this country

to have faith in the integrity of the united states supreme court, if something as grave as this could end up on their desk. >> that's right. that's why in many ways, i was glad to see the conservative thoughts leaders write this article. over 100 pages long. it's worth reading. what's really important line is that post civil war, why would you give the keys to political and bureaucratic power in this country to people who have decided that they want to see it torn down? that is the principle at heart here. why would you give the power to control a military to people who want to see or use that force to impact their own needs. so it's an important argument to make. i'm concerned that we don't have

the infrastructure to make sure that that argument is not only applied but enforced. reason i i say that is because it is just now that we're learning about the power of secretaries of state in our system. some are elected. some are appointed elections themselves are important. in fact, they could mean everything in life and death. but we're still having that conversation about why these positions are important, what these individuals actually do, because civically, our system is broken. there are pop that don't understand the power of these offices. we don't even teach that in schools. we now are at a point we're trying to figure out how to apply these very complicated issues on the ground through political parties. which a lot of people are now starting to pull away from. so it's just incredibly complex. it's important to have this conversation. but it's incredibly complex.

if i can make one other quick point. as we look at this argument to try to figure out a way to keep donald trump from holding the highest office in the land, i i can't go home if i don't say this. there are a lot of black men around this country right now that do not have the right to vote because they lost their rights. so what those voters are seeing is a system that's very quick to take their rights away, but we have to have these long, extended discussions about how to keep a man who is controlling an uprising in our country from obtaining office again. so when so many of these voters look at this, they say the system doesn't work for me because look at what he's doing, look at what i did. i served my time. i did what i was supposed to do, but i can never participate in the system. so that's another challenge that the elected officials and the parties in this country have to get across to the grass roots voter that we're going to have this one standard and we're

going to make it so that people who are threatening to overthrow our government don't have power, but you who have been grinding and serving time and did what you're supposed to do and trying to be more productive member of society can be a part of our system and have faith in it. so it goes from the grass roots up to the supreme court. >> it's sufficient such an important point. we're going to keep this over break. but i don't want to let this moment go. we're talking about whether something in black and white in the constitution, the two leaders of the republican party acknowledge on tv in front of cameras applies to donald trump, whether or not we could pull it off. whether it would be a test case or a governor to leave his name off, whether or not the democracy coalition, which is all democrats, many independents and some republicans, could pull off what republicans seem to do all day. dobbs happens because they run test case and find their

favorable judges and know how to work the system. we're asking the question whether that could happen to prevent an out of the closet insurrectionist from violating section 3 of the 14th amendment. your point is that that shouldn't be so hard. and one of the things he's charged with is depriving voters of their votes. when people who leaned into the rule of law, abided by the criminal justice system, served time, deprived of the very right to participate in our democracy. >> two-tiered system and that's what voters argue all the time. we saw it today. rudy giuliani gets out of his car shaking hands in what should be a perp walk. but he's shake hands like he's campaigning. how is that allowed? and i would also make this quick point. republicans can can deal with

this right now, right now, if they wanted to. >> by nominating anybody else. >> they could do it by just releasing every candidate on the stage tonight from the pledge to support donald trump. let them do what they want to do, say what they want to say. they could do that today. release them from that pledge. >> no one is going anywhere. we have to squeeze in a break. we'll all be right back. later in the broadcast, it's the first chapter for political party that is all the things we have been discussing that clearly not ready to move on from their autocratic ways. the first kraebt debate is tonight in milwaukee. the candidates are vying for to out trump, the twice impeached ex-president. at the start of the program today, we told you 8 of the 19 people indicted in georgia have been booked. since we have been on the air, that number has climbed to 9. that's because jenna ellis, trump attorney, just turned himself into local authorities. you're looking at her big smile on her mug shot.

you'll remember in the aftermath of the election, she appeared alongside rudy giuliani, even when his hair dye leaked on his face n making the case that trump won the election by a landslide. we also got the mug shot for sidney powell. she surrendered earlier today as well. we'll stay on that. a quick break. don't go anywhere. n that a quick break. don't go anywhere. you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com (fan #1) there ya go! that's what i'm talkin' about! with a partner that always puts you first. (josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. switch now and they'll give you nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv, on them. (hero fan) this plan is amazing! (josh allen) another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly.

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we're back with secretary benson and basil smikle. would you describe this as an

education phase, are you considering it? can you take me inside your process, if there is one and what it would be? >> yeah, i mean, first, it's important to note that secretaries of state maybe the first to act on these issues, but we won't be the last word. certainly, whether it's a state being sued by supporters of a candidate who is left off the ballot or a state being sued because a candidate is put on the ballot, we're anticipating that litigation will ultimately have the final say on this. and it will be up to the courts to decide, like the supreme court. so recognizing that will likely seek when the time right, which isn't at this moment. an opinion from the attorney general, we're also talking with colleagues in similarly situated states, colleagues who i respect who similarly make a legal rounded decision, not a political one like secretary aguilar in nevada, secretary

smith in pennsylvania and secretary raftens berger in georgia, because we will need to act in concert, if we act at all. so most importantly, the discussions are happening. that we recognize the seriousness of this issue, and we are grateful for all of the people in great minds who are weighing in on it, who we also recognize the process will be determined and have a final say in the courts. >> secretary benson, i'm just not blown away by how much pressure the system and the moment applies on offices like yours. they have always been important, but they haven't ended up in the spotlight. but i wonder if you feel like there's new muscles, new strength in those bonds, new sort of strength in numbers, new

awareness? you have received medals from the president. do you feel like you are closer to your counterparts, democratic and republican and nonaffiliated secretaries of state, or do you feel like this is too much? take me inside how it feels to have something this big potentially coming to all of your offices. >> it's two things. because of what we have already been through, many of us in 2020 and in 2022, we are ready to take this on with the seriousness and purpose that it requires. opposed to a political approach. we recognize the impact of the decisions we'll be making. but at the same time, i have a concern about the other side of of the coin. we have seen this position become increasingly politicized over the last several years. and i have deep concerns about whether it's someone seeking notoriety that this could get

messy in a way that is not becoming to our office. so for that reason, we are trying to coordinate with as many as possible, but this is an office that's increased in spotlight over the last several years. and with that, the political nature of the office, even though i feel it shouldn't be a political office, has increased as well. so we have to be mindful of that. i think that's in some ways why it's an important thing for us in the four states i mentioned to be coordinating, to have the bonds that have been built over the last several years, to recognize that the four of us have an important role to play following the law and staying above the political fray and we'll continue to support and counsel each other, and hopefully our counterparts in other states as we proceed in this complex and thorny issue. >> as secretary benson is talking, i'm trying to think of what does this even look like? no, he didn't plot and aid an

insurrection, or supporters like him and want him on the ballot any way. what is the argument going to be from the other side? >> i think their strongest argument, and that's not to say it's strong, but if i was give legal advice to republicans that they would not listen to, i would tell them to try to focus on the question of whether or not the president was involved in an insurrection. they are not going to win on that, i don't think, because the facts are pretty clear. it will get decided that it was an insurrection and he did participate in it. but this notion there's an entitlement to be on the ballot is crazy. for the reasons that basil said, when you take a step back and think about it, somehow a former president and his supporters believe that he has a fundamental right to run for president again is really jaw

dropping in light of what he did on january 6 and leading up to january 6th. so i think their better argument, such as it is, to focus on whether his role was significant enough in the insurrection. understanding that that would be a very difficult argument for them to carry as well. >> and just winding all this back to where it began for our purposes from conservative judge who say this is isn't even a political conversation, it's a legal one about someone who committed crimes so grave they could be likened to treason. thank you both so much for start ing us off with this conversation. we'll stay on it. when we come back, a political party transformed by the guy we're talking about. the disgraced ex-president may take its step towards something without him. why we should care about tonight's republican debate at

all. that's next. night's republican t all. that's next.

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david: i'm david goldberg, a bilingual elementary school teacher and president of the california teachers association. as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. jessie: they're called community schools. david: where parents and families, students and educators are making decisions as one. damien: it's a real sense of community. leslie: we saw double-digit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. david: it's an innovation that's transforming our public schools. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. surely you know by now it is debate night. while the disgraced ex-president will not be there, due to his incredibly on brand refusal to accept the results of an election and support his party's nominee, he refused to sign the pledge. that's the actual reason he's not there. eight candidates have qualified. vivek ramaswamy, former

ambassador nikki haley, former governor asa hutchinson, former new jersey governor chris christie, former vice president to donald trump mike pence, florida governor ron desantis, senator tim scott of south carolina, and north dakota governor doug burgum, who hurt himself playing basketball, i believe, it's been reported, but will be behind a podium tonight. the majority of these candidates are jockeying to breakthrough in the polls. it would appear by being the most extreme in their rhetoric in the race. take a look. >> if i have the privilege of being president of the united states, i'm going to clean house on the whole top floor of the justice department. >> i don't trust government to deal with red flag laws. >> 9/11, inside job or exactly how the government tells? >> i don't believe the government has told us the truth. >> i wonder what you do with the millions of foreign nationals.

>> i'm going to appoint tucker carlson as my bye-bye ambassador to figure this out. >> in some instances could be applied for their personal benefit. >> some of the folks that parlayed being a black smith into doing things later in life. >> if you feel like you need a drink right now, you're worried about any one of those people becoming the next president of the united states, right now the front runner is the guy that we didn't show you. the guy with four criminal indictments, two of which for trying to overthrow the government he's running to lead. join our coverage is columnist for "the boston globe" kimberly atkins, joining me at the table, host of the independent americans podcast paul rite cough is here. it's hard to watch it all

together. each and every one of them mandates a fact check and a come to your senses. but together they don't get to where half is in the polls. we'll take a few of them. 9/11 is an inside job is a mainstream republican position. >> a couple weeks before 9/11, here we sit in new york. i think what we have tonight is two stages. you have the main stage, which is the present and past of the gop. then you have the second stage, which is actually the dysfunctional, broken, dumb future. but it is the future. it's younger, it's more diverse, you have a moderate in there, you have a woman in there -- >> which is the moderate? >> christie, we'll see. christie is going to be the one to watch. he's the one that's going to try to score headlines. he can exchange well in this kind of environment. but they are fighting for relevance. they are trying to get clicks. they are trying to jock key for being ready if something happens to trump. whether he gets eliminated, whether he gets sick, whether

something else happens or four years from now. they are jockeying to become the legacy of this party. it's a giant on deck circle. here we are. as an independent, independents are watching this with disgust. if they are watching this at all. it might be a winning strategy for the primary, but it's not a general election strategy now or for the effect next decade. >> you said something really important that doesn't often get voiced when the cameras are on. they are running in case he gets sick. none of them has a strategy to defeat him. >> they can't. he's the presumptive nominee. he's where my money is, until he's not. not could be tomorrow. he could get sick, he could die, he's not the healthiest guy in the world. the same is true for biden. many people are keeping their powder dry just in case. they want to have the apparatus ready, the campaign ready, the staff ready to be there to inherit the mess and be the last person standing. it's like a giant episode of survivor.

>> i guess the piece that makes me sort of view this with more slinty than i would if i was looking at the clown car nature of the personalities is that except for christie, or maybe -- they are all running on obliterating the rule of law, annihilating academia in a pure sense, weakening a free press, making it harder to vote in america, even though there is no evidence that there were any fraudulent votes cast that would have had any impact on the outcome of the election. no one has been able to find voter fraud at that scale. and i wonder what your thoughts are, as we have the official start of the republican primary tonight. >> i think what we have seen as a preview so far from what these candidates have said, including governor hutchinson on your

show, is that this isn't just about donald trump. if it were, they could collectively point to the fact that he stands indicted in four different prosecutors, including for attacking our government, and that it is time for the party to no longer be lead by this person. but it's about trumpism, which they are either totally in supportive of or afraid of speaking out against because they realize or believe too much of their base, they would need to elect them are strong followers of trumpism. so they are caught in that. so the very fact that they are standing on this stage, and they will try to either dabs around or tip toe around or fully embrace trumpism tells you everything that is wrong with the republican party. it's absolutely right. winning the primary means

kowtowing to that anti-democratic, anti-government, to hear nikki haley, somebody who had a promising future when she was governor, was highly respected, to say that states can't be trusted to pass laws that protect their own citizens from guns, it's bizarre. that's what we're going to see play out tonight. we can only hope the voters in the general election see this clearly for what it is regardless of who emerges as the nominee. >> i'm glad that that was brought up. it's also in the words of bill barr total bs. they are all saying stuff that even they, in their incarnations of themselves, don't believe and didn't believe in the past. the piece of it that is, to me, such a sickness, is that even trump can read a poll. all the whacks are not in the

senate because election denyism is a mega loser. just ask governor schapiro how that played. it's a massive loser. so it's like watching them strap themselves on to the titanic. >> to pick up on kim's point about nikki haley, i was thinking about 2015 after the shooting in the church in charleston. what happens? certainly pressure from activists, elected officials, which have been decades in the making, but at this specific moment in time, nikki haley says i'm going to take the flag off the capitol. if you watch that moment, you have an african-american officer leading these troops to take that flag down with people lined up around it to see because this was an impactful moment. even if you did not like nikki

haley's politics, that was a moment she could be a general election candidate. not one of the candidates on stage tonight could make that argument. they have all done things in their past that could make them a more palettable candidate for democrats or even for republicans right now that are looking for something. but they have so aligned themselves with donald trump, how do you wiggle out of that? there's no way to do that. so to your point about what the future of the party is, i don't know. but to me, i don't know what that future looks like with any of these folks in the room because they are not leading. they are actually really just following. it's sad to watch. >> i guess independent voters are some of the most informed voters. they are like the hard to get voters. they take in the most news. >> i think that's right. independents are 49% of the country now. they are the most influential

voters in every close election. so anywhere that's up for grabs nationally or at the state level, independents are the difference. i don't think there's anybody on the stage tonight who will resinate with independents. you see them continue to flee the republican party. they are also leaving the democratic party. and 60% of young party are independent. they are just checking out all this. they think it's all crazy and looking for new voices. that's what we should be watching for. the people on the sidelines letting the carnage happen and are waiting until trump is gone. when the field has cleared, then they can enter. those are going to be the ones that will be durable and have a chance do rebuild the republican party. >> speaking of shark tanks, chris christie did make chum out of marco rubio. that was the last time he was on a debate stage when he was run ing in the republican primary in 2016. we'll talk about whether that happens again tonight. we'll also talk about another big loser for republicans,

something that's becoming about a 75/25 issue. banning all access to reproduct reproductive health care and abortions. we'll get to know how that will go down, since there's not a lot of division among the candidates tonight, after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break don't go anywhere. ♪♪ i'm currently out of the office... focusing on a little blue-sky thinking. i'll be taking meetings... with family and friends. and checking voicemail... as my activities permit.

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being middle class right now, it's tough making ends meet for sure. republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the biggest corporations the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. right. joe biden would rather just stop those corporations from charging so damn much. capping the cost of drugs like insulin. cracking down on surprise medical bills and all those crazy junk fees. there's more work to do. tell the president to keep lowering costs for middle class families.

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ad about how outside the mainstream the gop field is 8 in 10 americans who want the abortion rights and access decisions left to patients and doctors. take a look. >> every republican candidate for president should support a ban onabortion. >> we'll get it done. i know the issue well. i think i know the issue better than most, and we'll get that taken care of. >> i'll be a pro-life president and of course i want to sign pro-life legislation. >> if there's something where they'd come together on consensus of course i'd sign it. >> i'd sign the most conservative pro-life legislation you can bring to my desk. >> quote, i know the issue better than most, on another day. but the truth is one of the things that blocked any sort of red wave in the midterms is the republicans' position on reproductive health care. and the numbers have only grown. not just men, women, but

democrats and large numbers of their own voters who strongly oppose those positions taken there on abortion bans. >> that's exactly right, and you have seen some republicans try to soft shoe their way back from the effect of overturning dobbs and other really restrictive voter laws. i mean, really restrictive abortion laws that have been passed throughout the states and the backlash against that every single time abortion has been put on the ballot, abortion access has won, and it's very smart for planned parenthood and other pro access groups to be running ads like that to remind voters every day about who is behind the effort to restrict that and who is behind the effort to ensure and expand reproductive health care. i think democracy and pro voting rights groups should do the same

things because we've heard from voters that protecting democracy and voting rights and protecting abortion access are top of mind in this election, particularly for those who are leaning democratic, everyone more so than the economy. so that is important for people who would vote democratic, whether they're democrats, independents, or diseffected republicans. that's an important message to send. >> well, and i think it's where you have the opportunity to build the biggest coalition, where you may not agree on personalities and platforms, you do build a broad coalition around democracy and around majority rule. and you know who knows that, kim? republicans. that's why they're trying to rig the vote in places like ohio, where even ohio voters are trending pretty conservative, have rejected it. so you're absolutely right. kim atkins, paul, bazzle, thank you so much for being part of our coverage today. another break for us. we'll be right back. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. don't go anywhere. ay ticket.

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so tonight is a special night. i'll be back at 11:00 p.m. eastern with all of my primetime colleagues and friends for analysis of the republican debate. we'll watch it so you don't have to if you don't want to. thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> see you at 11:00. >> gang's getting together at 11:00. it's late for us. >> get the popcorn. i'll see you there. right now we're following breaking news out of the trump rico case. rudy giuliani's mug shot. here it is. from a rico prosecutor to a rico defendant, from america's mayor to what you see on your screen, and we're going to leave it up so you can take it in to