♪♪ tonight on "the reidout" -- >> mr. mayor, do you acknowledge that you made false statements? >> that is a total lie. why do you go put yourself -- >> you acknowledged it. why did you not fight that in the court? >> i didn't acknowledge it. that was a stipulation done in every lawsuit. not for the purposes of truth or -- >> you did not contest it. you had the opportunity to fight that. >> you're wrong. >> i did not because i had to move on to legal issues. rudy giuliani surrendering today in atlanta.

now part of trump's rogue's gallery of georgia codefendants who are being booked, fingerprinted, and getting lovely mug shots to place above their mantles. courtesy of the fulton county sheriff's office. also tonight, stunning news out of russia. as yevgeny prigozhin, the man who led the june mutiny against the kremlin is now believed to be dead in a plane crash. plus, debate night in milwaukee. trump won't be there. can any of the others prove they are legitimate threat to his renomination? we begin tonight, however, with the truth and consequences. the truth being that there was no wide-spread voter fraud during the 2020 presidential election. and that the actions taken by donald trump and his gang took a long walk off a short pier going from the legal to the criminal. that leads us to the consequences that we are now

seeing play out this week, as one by one, the 19 co-defendants in the georgia case are making their way to a fulton county jail to surrender. as you can see, in place of some of the head shots that we have been showing you since the indictment came out, are the mug shots of those who have already been booked. trump's head shot remains on that graphic. but likely not for long. as he is expected to turn himself in tomorrow night, in primetime. to put on a performance for his maga followers to make it seem like he is the martyr he claims to be to get his followers, of course, to send him money. but let's just deal in truth for a minute, shall we? no matter what kind of performance trump puts on for his followers tomorrow night, this has to be legitimately distressing for the man who has gotten away with so much throughout his life and who has rarely had to truly face the consequences. tomorrow night, during this very hour, donald trump will be humbled before the world as he finds out how humiliating it is

to go from being the leader of the free world to being photographed like a common criminal. no matter how much bravado he displays, there is no way that trump wants to join this cast of previously famous politicians who in some cases smiled for the camera as they, too, faced up to their crimes. for a lot of these people who exist on the elite side of american politics, booking day is likely both a shocking and a sobering moment. and it may be a wakeup call to just how real the consequences are in the criminal justice system. trump's codefendants could very well be looking at prison sentences for following the direction of a man who likely could care less what happens to them as long as it keeps him out of prison. don't believe for a second that trump wouldn't throw every single one of them under the bus to save his own behind. we have already seen reporting to that effect. if it wasn't clear enough,

trump's defense lawyer started laying that groundwork earlier this month. putting the blame on everybody but trump. >> everything that president trump did was with the advice of lawyers and counsel. what he's being indicted for ultimately is following legal advice from an esteemed scholar, john eastman, that he could petition his own vice president and ask his vice president to pause the voting on january 6th to give the states one last chance to certify or reaudit. >> joining me now is harry litman, former deputy assistant attorney general and host of "the talking feds podcast" and lisa ruben, msnbc legal analyst. i want to start with you, lisa. watching rudy giuliani come out today and do that sort of -- it was almost his tear ya. he doesn't talk to normal news outlet. getting to is ask him questions, vaughn hillyard shooting questions to him.

he seemed rattled to me. having watched giuliani when he was mayor. there's his mug shot. it has to be a humbling moment going from a u.s. attorney, to being mayor, to being that, right? photographed in that way. talk a little bit about it because i can only imagine how sobering it is. this is -- it gets real. this is when it gets real when you take that mug shot. >> it totally gets real. there's no place, joy, that's more real than the wright street jail in fulton county, georgia. multiple people have died in custody already this year. this is a place where conditions are, to use a word that has become infamous, deplorable, frankly. for giuliani to walk through that jail and be processed like anybody else in fulton county, georgia, had to not only be humbling but humiliating. it's a sad -- if the story were to end here, and it won't, it would be a sad enough ending for a person who was once called america's mayor, for the leadership he showed in the days immediately after september 11th.

>> i mean, this is a jail that the feds looked into. you're right. it's a rough place, right? and harry, for me, you know -- we can put up some of more of these mug shots. some look more pathetic than others. jenna ellis decided to do hair and makeup and look cute for it. you can look as cute as you want. these are attorneys, harry. these are people who went to law school. i can imagine how proud their parents were when they got those law degrees. and for them now to be defendants. it is something that is so sobering that i wonder if for you as a prosecutor if you can foresee some of these people rethinking how hard they're going to fight for donald trump's reality. because donald trump is not going to fight for their's. he is going to throw every single one of them. he already said it was eastman's idea. you know, it's easy for him to say, no, that was chesebro's idea. he doesn't care about these people. i bonder when people finally

have that moment, there's the kraken lady. that they say, you know what, yeah, this ain't worth it. i'm going to try to help myself and not help trump. >> that's it exactly. i'll add to humbling and humiliating and sobering, terrifying. you take a step into that kind of booking environment and you contemplate that being your residence, maybe for the rest of your life, it focuses the mind on your own self interest right quick. so, we're seeing that already. this is a very sort of dynamic time in the fulton county proceedings themselves, joy, in which ken chesebro, jeff clark, mark meadows, david shaffer have all made efforts to, one way or another, get themselves out of it other than just toeing the line for donald trump. so, for trump, it's a very

dangerous time. and you add to that that for most of them they don't have the money to -- for the exorbitant bills of defending themselves and trump isn't giving it to them. he, more than anybody, is at risk over the next couple weeks of having people show up to fulton county and say, okay, i've got some things to tell you. and they're about the former president. let's make a deal. >> yeah. by the way, i will note -- we'll go through and tell you -- some people, we didn't know what they looked like before we saw them in the mug shot. for your first time for people to really know what you to look like, for that to be your image, it's pathetic. you know, the eastman one is particularly pathetic. i will note, lisa, that -- so mark meadows tried to make this not happen. >> yep. >> he tried to go to -- so did jeffrey clark, the former justice department official. they were like, don't let this be me. i don't want to be arrested and take this mug shot. judge said, sorry. no. meadows' motion was

immediately -- he wanted to move his case to federal court, prevent his arrest until after august 28th, after the evidentiary hearing. the judge said nope. they have to go through that indignity, too. >> yeah. they are. they both have to be arrested. you know, joy, it's not -- katy tur and i were talking about this earlier today. being booked is not like going on an airplane ride where there's one line for the special customers and one line for everybody else who is seated at the back of the plane. it's more like showing up in an emergency room and you get to see whatever presents itself at the jail that day. if there are a cacophony of other defendants who are there, you wait in that line with everybody else. harry is right. it is a harrowing journey from start to finish. i wonder how much time rudy giuliani spent at the mdc, the metro detention center in downtown manhattan when he was u.s. attorney there. but that itself is a facility

that was so bad that it was shut down. now he's getting to see the inside of conditions where he has himself placed people before. >> yeah, absolutely. let's bring in luke broadwater "the new york times" congressional reporter. luke, i wonder if there is any reporting on kind of the ramifications beyond what we saw today. we know that donald trump is throwing $100,000 a head fundraiser for rudy giuliani. which is smart. he wants to keep him on side. if he decides he's no longer standing with trump, he would probably have a lot to say. but are there any reverberations from eastman world, from jenna ellis world, from people who might be getting a little shaky after their experience in fulton county today? >> well, both eastman and jenna ellis say they're going to fight the charges and they're condemning the prosecutors. but jenna ellis has also complained about donald trump not paying her legal bills. she's been quite outspoken about

that. rudy giuliani was trying for months and months to get donald trump to pay his legal bills. he had wanted something like $20,000 a month and trump had essentially refused to pay him despite to get these legal bills paid. finally now when he showed up at the jail, is donald trump saying he is now going to try to help him with the legal bills. that's in stark contrast to some of these other lawyers. donald trump paid millions of dollars to other attorneys who i think he valued more or thought could help him more. he had thrown rudy away it seems. and i think that does present a risk, you know, when you're talking about trying to get co-defendants to testify or to provide evidence to the prosecution. >> i do believe one of the mug shots we have gotten today is the woman who was running the coffee county election office and allowed people to get into the machines there. she had a gofundme.

she was trying to raise $75,000 for her bail. she only hit 5,000. i believe that's her right there. she only raised $5,000 as of yesterday. and harry, we have this footage, i do believe, of giuliani walking into the bail bondsman's office, which again humbling experience. there he is. he's probably sent a lot of people, as lisa pointed out to have to do the same thing. this is a man who has been brought low. the only person who i think could be brought even lower experiencing this would be donald trump himself. >> it's really true. i've been to jails, as u.s. attorney when you go as a defendant. the smell, the noise, the whole feel of it, they really are, you know, hellish, especially the rice street jail as lisa said. but to the general point now about how the interests are die verging. so david shafer who is one of the georgia electors, he

actually came out and said, oh, we were ordered to do this by the trump team. i mean, you see divergents of interest. it's not simply they're thinking of saving themselves, but they're doing it at the expense of trump, which is what they understandably think fulton county is looking for. so, it's going to be hard to know the individual strategies of everyone, but it points in a very favorable dynamic for -- this is how you make cases. this is where prosecutors want to be with everyone scared and looking. and by the way, they tell them, you better come in soon because if not, somebody else will to make cases against higher ups. it doesn't get any higher, just as you say. even in bail. that's a loosest mags of their overall guilt. >> luke, there is some evidence that you're starting to see

people -- starting to fray at the edges of trump world. we have already seen the i.t. guy, tavara who got his own lawyer. he actually is using a federal pro bono lawyer, right? and he said, you know what, he flipped. and so you're starting to see there are people flipping. of course in the documents case, where donald trump's co-defendants they have them dead to rights. they have them on tape. they have them on tape both trying to hide the surveillance video and moving the boxes. i can't imagine how they're still sticking by donald trump. so he's facing multiple cases in which he doesn't have the same interests, luke, as his codefendants. and i wonder if trump world is starting to worry that he can't hold all of these people in multiple cases to stick with him until the end. >> well, i think almost inevitable that he won't be able to. i mean, if you look at a pattern

of the various investigations that have happened after january 6th, you do see instances, including even in the congressional investigation, where a witness, such as cassidy hutchinson, will get a new attorney and then become much more forthcoming. that's exactly what we saw in the documents case, where the prosecutors now say witnesses have changed their previous statements and corrected false statements, provided now more incriminating evidence. and if you look at fani willis' other racketeering cases, not related to january 6th, those also have started with a bunch of defendants, got a bunch of guilty pleas and ended with the more serious targets. and, i would suspect that's where this is headed. >> let's talk about how quickly these trials are going to go actually to court. there is this sort of speedy trial idea. donald trump doesn't seem to want one. he wants a trial to be basically never.

push it off, push it off and push it off. kenneth chesebro tried the fact that he does want a speedy trial. he demanded a speedy trial. chesebro's case would have to likely be tried by the end of october or he could simply be acquitted of the charges if he doesn't get the speedy trial he's looking for. what do you make of that tactic? >> harry has been talking about interests pointing the finger at each other. that's equally important to the process and timing. kenneth is demanding to go to trial by october. a series of other defendants want to move this to federal court. not only because the jury pool could be more advantageous to them but the timing could be. one of the additional complicating factors, it's thought if one defendant removes a case, it doesn't just affect them. it affects all the defendants in the criminal prosecution. so we have a hearing on mark meadows' motion to remove the case to federal court on monday.

how that intersects with chesebro's motion under georgia law for a speedy trial in october, nobody quite understands. but it is what we would call a mess. >> it is a mess. harry, dream with me for just a moment. let's say chesebro gets a speedy trial. let's say he's convicted of what he was accused of. how might that affect jack smith's case? because he figures as the master mind, we now have seen, of the whole fake elector's scheme. there's his mug shot. if he gets convicted in this georgia case, how does that affect the federal case? >> look, he is co-conspirator number 5. i think all six of the co-conspirators are waiting to be charged. he is one of them. but what he's effectively doing in georgia is saying, i want to separate out myself from this other -- the rest of the gaggle of crack pot lawyers, to quote

the most memorable quote in mike pence's history, and i want to go separately. this is the better way i think to do it than making a motion to sever, which fani willis could push back against. it takes -- it's a real roll of the dice. he's saying, you know, i'll bet that i can be ready to go come early november, and you can't be. but it would be quite an event if, in fact, he is convicted. everything that happens at that trial, everything he says, it's going to be admissible at a federal trial as well. it's one of the many ways in which the dove tailing of the two trials begin to really take on synergy and steam. >> yeah. if i'm john eastman and sidney powell, i'm looking in terror of what happens with that. as go chesebro, probably they go as well. they're all part of the same scheme. what a time to be alive. harry litman, luke broadwater,

lisa rubin, thank you all for going through this all with us. appreciate it. up next on "the reidout" -- just two months after leading a mutiny against vladimir putin, the boss of the wagner group is listed as one of the passengers on a plane that crashed near moscow today. killing everyone on board. what a news day. "the reidout" continues after this. rsv can be a dangerous virus... [sneeze] ...for those 60 and older. it's not just a cold. and if you're 60 or older... ...you may be at increased risk of hospitalization... [coughing] ...from this highly... ...contagious virus. not all dangers come with warning labels. talk to your pharmacist or doctor... ...about getting vaccinated against rsv today.

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believed to be dead in russia, exactly two months after he mounted a short-lived armed mutiny against russia's military leadership. the mercenary chief was listed as a passenger on a plane that crashed north of moscow today. killing all ten people on board. including three pilots and seven passengers. the remains of all ten people aboard the crashed jet have been found, according to russian state media. nbc news has not confirmed the reporting. president biden reacted to the news this afternoon. >> there's not much that happens in russia with putin not behind it. i don't know enough -- >> this is video of prigozhin released on monday appeared to give his first video address since the mutiny that shook the kremlin. last month secretary of state antony blinken issued a warning

about prigozhin's fate. >> if i were mr. prigozhin, i would remain very concerned. nato has an open door policy. russia has an open windows policy. and he needs to be very focussed on that. >> joining me now is michael mcfall, former u.s. beard so russia and msnbc analyst and john brennan, msnbc senior national security and intelligence analyst. this seems like the least surprising news of all. to me, the only thing is a surprise is that this man was anywhere near russia or in russia. what do you make of the news of his apparent death? >> well, it's not surprising. you're right. we talked about it months ago and i wrote about it that everybody thought that putin was exact revenge at a certain point. there are some questions, joy. why was prigozhin allowed to be in russia? why did prigozhin show up at the african summit that putin had? he had parallel meetings with african leaders. that's a weird way to treat a

traitor. why did they choose this particular way to assassinate him, if indeed they did? why didn't they arrest him? there are other ways he could have dealt with him. there's still a lot of strange questions about the nature of why this happened the way it did. but no ambiguity that putin would do this at some point in the future. he did it today. >> dr. brennan, what questions do you have. it is strange to me. everyone expected after that attempted sort of coup attempt, that also seemed strange if you were going to try it and didn't go all the way, you would think you would then disappear, you know. he had obviously connections on the african continent the wagner group has been very active there. you know, the idea that he didn't just go there or go to belarus or do anything other than go back to russia does seem strange. and the idea that putin would forgive him and somehow let him back into his inner circle just did not ever seem credible.

what do you make of these events? >> well, i certainly agree with mike. it's unsurprising that prigozhin was going to be the target of putin's wrath because once he aborted that mutiny and what was apparent -- appeared to be almost a coup, that he was living on borrowed time. so maybe putin was allowing him to feel this false sense of confidence and security and had him do some things. but i do think that putin was waiting because at the time of the mutiny, the situation was very, very unsettled. and i think that putin did not know exactly who was in league with prigozhin. and so he was trying to make sure that he was able to take steps to shore up his military support and loyalists in the armed forces. and so, he has sacked a number of generals over the past couple of months. and so i think he felt confident now. whether prigozhin was on that plane alive is a question. maybe he was killed even before

he got -- his remains were put on that plane. but i do think this was putin's way to demonstrate very, very publicly, visibly that traitors are not going to be forgiven, even a person like prigozhin. it's clear that the way that aircraft was spiraling down to earth it was either taken down by a missile or there was some type of catastrophic explosion on the plane, like improvised explosive device. but clearly it would be a remarkable coincidence if this was not something that putin had designed himself. >> it does seem clear that while putin can't subdue ukraine clearly, he can still kill russians, right, at will. and ambassador mcfall, let me read you what svetlana belorussian opposition politician. this is what she tweeted. the criminal prigozhin won't be

missed in belarus. he was a murder and should be remembered as such. his death might dismantle wagner's presence in belarus, reducing the threat to our nation and neighbors. no one should trust lukashenko's guarantees or any of his deals. how do you think if he is, in fact, gone, it does impact belarus? but also, you know, wagner is very active on the african continent. what do you think the impact of his death, if it is confirmed, would be? >> well, i agree. this is good nus for belarus. it's also good news for ukraine. this guy was a killer. he killed a lot of ukrainians. his forces killed a lot of ukrainians. and everybody in kyiv is happy that he's gone. africa is more complicated. it's a great question. it's confusing to me that he was allowed to go back. he was allegedly there yesterday. again, as i said earlier, he was meeting with african leaders when putin had his summit with leaders in st. petersburg. so it's not clear to me how

putin and the fsb and the russian military will take over the wagner forces that do play a critical role for the russian government. let's be really clear. there are mercenary organization but they're 100% funded by the russian government. and what you're seeing on telegram channels today are wagner forces saying, you know, they're seeking revenge. they don't like the fact that their leader and other leaders, by the way, sounds like the entire leadership was taken out, how do you now gain control of that organization or just do you take it off the field? i would hope it would be the latter. because wagner does a lot of bad things in africa. it would be great if they withdrew from africa as well. >> and dr. brennan, how does this impact our interests? u.s. interests. because this does make putin look stronger. it makes it look that he is less -- unstable as we might have believed that the failure in ukraine has made him. but how does it impact his leadership, our interests,

nato's interest, et cetera? >> well, i think as mike said, we're going to see how the wagner forces react to this. and i think there's still a fair amount of uncertainty as far as how putin is going to be able to manage the competing interests that i think the broader russian environment he has to deal with. so, i think he is determined to continue to fight the conventional battle in ukraine. he is hoping he'll be able to outlast the nato and u.s. support. but i think we still are going to see a number of different chapters in the coming months as the internal russian situation as well as the battlefield in ukraine. >> yeah. intriguing. it seems like the wagner group are vicious but at least they seemed more capable than the russian forces or russian ordinary troop. so it is a strange world that we're living in. but we shall see what happens. michael mcfall and john brennan, thank you both very much. up next the race for second place. looking ahead to tonight's republican primary debate which the trump campaign says he's

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david: i'm david goldberg, a bilingual elementary school teacher and president of the california teachers association. as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. jessie: they're called community schools. david: where parents and families, students and educators are making decisions as one. damien: it's a real sense of community. leslie: we saw double-digit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. david: it's an innovation that's transforming our public schools. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. well, we are just a couple hours away from the first republican presidential debate. oh, goody. according to trump, he's already won. never mind, republicans. no, seriously, though. tonight we get a chance to see just how committed the republican party is to turning the country into a totalitarian autocracy. so far what we have seen from the candidates is continued 2020

denialism. 9/11 denialism and manufactured mask woke mind virus hysteria and hunter biden, because according to republicans apparently he's running for president. of course, there are opportunities for these candidates to make their mark, but that would require a willingness to go after the guy who isn't there. so far only two of the eight have shown any desire to do more than just be the proverbial listless vessels. joining me now is david jolly. every time i see you or run into you, i cannot believe you ever were a florida politician. you're so coherent. >> a florida republican. >> there's no way you fit in with that party. you're not the normy florida republican i know. i just said this off camera i'll say it on camera, the republicans that i know in florida all say they're shocked desantis has gotten this far because he doesn't have the personality of what you would normally have to be a presidential candidate. and he is going to be the target tonight. >> he is going to be the target. >> how do you think he'll hold

up? >> look, his first race in florida was very close. his second one he won by 19 points. crippled democrat party. he is number two. the expectations have been so high that he's been dropping for months and months and months. if you're any candidate on that stage but desantis, you don't get ahead tonight by attacking donald trump. you get ahead by attacking ron desantis. and in many ways, joy, this could be make or break for ron desantis because the expectations are so high. his own words on the eighth day, god created ron desantis. god, what do you have for us because if you come up short tonight, ramaswamy, scott, somebody else would be overtaking ron desantis. >> the reporting is he was livid at the leak of these sort of campaign talking points and prescriptions for what he should do tonight. but the reality is he now can't really use the advice that was in that memo because he will look like a puppet. and so it's like if he does use the advice he looks silly. but if he doesn't, i'm not sure what he could possibly do.

>> which sets up a chris christie attack right out of the gate. but look, first an indictment of our campaign finance system that we let these super pacs create the memos that the candidate isn't see and have to grab them off the internet. also indictment of ron desantis's core message. the memo said attack joe biden and the media more times than offering your vision for the future of the country. right? and say woke and hunter bide. you're exactly right. if he follows that script, look for chris christie or somebody to come in with a hay maker saying, you don't have an independent thought in your head. you're following your super pac. being a big government conservative as florida's chief executive hammering disney and rewriting curriculum. there's so much to hit desantis on. i worry, though, that the other candidates are going to be so focussed on the trump complex that they're not going to get out from underneath that to actually have a real debate

among the candidates on the stage. >> the goal is to get to number one. you mentioned chris christie. let's play him talking about the debate. this is what he had to say. >> i think the race is over hardly. this is not the yogi berra school of political philosophy. it isn't getting late early. and so, we're going to let this play out. and i think the big loser tomorrow night's debate has already been determined and it's donald trump. because he didn't have the guts or the respect to show up on that stage and defend his record. >> governor, governor. >> and advocate for the future of america. >> we know this will be a republican audience. chris christie says that tonight he'll get booed. does that help him because outside of there there's still some sort of republicans out there in the world maybe 10% of them, i don't know who are like, please, we want someone besides trump. does he win any points if he does that on stage tonight? >> i don't think tonight. the strategy is a long one. the governor is right. there's a sequence to it.

you only get to take on donald trump if you overtake ron desantis. if you go after donald trump tonight, as kristy and hutchinson and others said, you likely get booed and don't hurt desantis and don't move in the polls. we have five months until the iowa caucus. your goal right now is to overtake ron desantis and baked into all of candidate strategy is that somewhere donald trump is going to so injure himself that he'll start to fall. we haven't seen that moment but that's in the strategy of everybody on stage tonight. >> they're probably going to sell trump mug shots. let's talk about the oddest candidate, ramaswamy has a boom lit among the media. he is trying to be a rapper and play on black culture but doesn't seem to like black people. he said the weirdest thing about 9/11. >> there's a difference between entrapment and difference between law enforcement agent identifying -- >> i think it's legitimate to say how many police -- how many federal agents were on the planes that hit the twin towers.

like, i think we want -- maybe the answer is zero. probably is zero for all i know. i have no reason to think it was anything other than zero. doing a comprehensive assessment of what happened on 9/11, 9/11 commission, that should be the answer the public knows to. >> way to leave yourself open to even mike pence could beat him up. that's an odd thing to say on tape if you're running for president. >> the only thing this field is missing is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist and we just got it just in time. >> there it is. >> chris christie, his wife was down at the twin towers that day. so watch out on this ramaswamy. the interesting thing is do republican voters care? probably not because the amount of crazy on that stage tonight is already, you know, at a high deaf level. america gets to see north dakota governor, ramaswamy. those are the two that people don't right now. at some point there may be a star, or somebody whose star fades quickly.

ramaswamy could be either. >> i have to ask another since i have my florida friend here. why did desantis add the guy who referred to women as host bodies as his new national spokesperson, the former speaker of the florida house, jose oliva? why is he on his campaign, host bodies? >> the interesting thing, we faced this with donald trump as well. how much is tactic and strategy playing to this crazy right wing and how much is personal ethos. i think we all get to make a judgment. but i think on issues of race, gender, immigrants, all these hard cultural issues it's okay to assign personal biases to ron desantis and say this is your ethos. this is who you are. the people you surround yourself with reflect who you are. i think that's a judgment everybody gets to make. i think it's a personal belief system of ron desantis. >> it leaves it open for gillum had this moment. i'm not saying he's a racist. he had a lot of lines like that. the host bodies thing leaves it open, i'm not saying he doesn't

respect women. i'm just saying that people who don't respect women don't respect womens. leaving yourself open, david jolly, thank you very much. it will be fascinating. up next a new expose reveals alarming facts about elon musk. his use of prescriptions and over the counter pharmaceuticals. we'll talk to ronan farrow when he joins me next. ow when he joins mnee xt shingles. some describe it as an intense burning sensation or an unbearable itch. this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. it could make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles.

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we have all had a front row seat to elon musk going off the rails this year as he continues to drive the site formally known as twitter into the ground. it's been a dangerous game to watch with someone so volatile in charge of a major source of information and political discourse. but his influence on u.s. policy goes far beyond that. ranging from space to energy and even funding ukrainian soldier's access to the internet. as roaning far row reports in the new yorker, there is little precedent for a civilian becoming the arbiter of a war between nations in such a granular way. the degree of depentsy the u.s. now has on musk in a variety of fields. in the past 20 years against a backdrop of crumbling infrastructure and declining trust in institutions, musk has sought out business opportunities in crucial areas where after decades of privatization the state has receded. the government is now reliant on him. but struggles to respond to his

risk taking, brinksmanship and ka piece. ronan far row for the new yorker joins me now. ronan, so great to see you. >> it's always a pleasure, joy. >> you scared the hell out of me with this piece. i'm sorry. >> i love you for reading that whole lot tract this is a piece that is about those big themes, not just the scoop. i appreciate your highlighting that. >> the startling thing, this is essentially he controls the access to the internet that ukraine depends on to survive in the midst of a war, and he seems to be becoming pro putin, and against continuing to help. why is the united states dependent on him for that? why is ukraine dependent on him? >> as in so many areas are right on in this piece, the answer embodies a mix of pros and cons. it plays out across the story. you have the pro-of elon musk identifying in a really canny

way an area of government under investment and getting their first and putting his personal resources into it and bringing his no holds barred progress at any cost risk of lives, and in the case of star like, his satellite system, that is, as you say, providing the backbone of communication in ukraine for both civilian and military to literally coordinate and defend themselves. he did get their first on this kind of private satellite business model, and this had a mobile station to connect to that network. i talked to nasa officials who warned that we are going to see even more dependent on him in this area because he has filled so many of the orbits of the earth with his satellites that he is just going to be an ongoing, if you will forgive me, center of gravity in this world. >> the scariest line, spacex is

currently the sole means by which massive transports crew from u.s. soil into space. then you name a bunch of other agencies which could go on. the federal aviation administration, the occupational safety and health administration, and on and on, even the chargers that the biden administration is depending on for the electric car, it's all him. >> yeah. he has 60% of the charging stations for electric vehicles in this country right now. any green energy policy is going to have to revolve around and work with him in significant ways. none of this is black and white. there are competitors. nasa is saying we are trying, we hope in a year boeing can do some of these things, but historians told me this state of affairs, where we are scrambling and trying to find any alternatives at all in so many areas, with respect to one person, that's new. >> and is he stable? you talk about some behavior,

alpha, marriage not lasting long. is he stable? >> while i think the bigger warnings in this story are about the systems of modern capitalism that concentrate so much power and wealth in so few, there is also a fair set of warnings about elon musk that some people close to him are sounding. in a way he is a perfect illustration of those bigger themed stories, because there is so much to be said about the ways in which he has pushed progress. we have benefited from that. but also he is a figure that makes it difficult to rely on him. he is subject to erratic turns. we have seen him slip into political radicalism in a way that i think people find hurtful and destructive to other human beings. his own doctor is a trans individual and he has really descended hard into anti-trans on twitter. he is spreading a lot of misinformation. he is trolling people in a way

that is rooted in alt-right vernacular. you take a guy with this much power, talking about his sadness, loneliness, isolation, who is, as you say, known and reported to be using a variety of different substances that contribute to erratic-ism, even though many of those can be used in healthy ways, i caution. there are people around him that are concerned. we as a nation and as a world need to be concerned because major policies depend on him. >> the bigger picture, this country has gone through periods where we have over dependent on very rich man to fund the government, to do things the government should be doing. how many more elon musk's are controlling a lot of our what should be government functions. >> i'm glad you mentioned that. this story about musk, like most of the stories i'm drawn to, is not about one person.

you are right, there is a billionaire set right now of hyper wealthy individuals who are less prominent than mosques. because they are less colorful they are pulling the strings in all sorts of important ways. elon musk is unique in the number of industries he has the has influence over. that presents problems. but you're right. >> scary stuff. i recommend everyone read this. ronan farrow, thank you for the important work you do. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. i'm at a point now where i've outgrown my house. growing up, every time i'd get out of the shower, i would itch. my first experience with goat milk soap, it kinda was like a light bulb moment. tiktok is a fantastic platform for diy. if you'd have told me three years ago that i would own my own business and be expanding into a separate building, i would've told you you'd lost your mind.

>> it's not over.

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back with rachel meadow and nicole wallace, for analysis of the 2024 presidential campaign. my pals and i will be here tomorrow night with special live coverage at seven pm eastern and donald trump is expected to surrender at the fulton county jail on charges in the georgia election interference case. yeah, that's happening tomorrow. that's tonight reidout. all in with chris hayes starts now. all in with chris haye>> good e. i'm chris hayes. donald trump and his band of racketeers have come to georgia to be arrested. last week the ex president and 18 co-defendants were indicted in fulton county for plotting to over turn the election in georgia and all the states across t