even if it's football, australian football, or football football. in a word—it's fitz-credible. i got to trademark that one. this season, eligible xfinity rewards members can get up to $100 off nfl sunday ticket from youtube. sign up for xfinity rewards now. good day, i'm chris jansing live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. from the white house to a georgia jailhouse, donald trump now just hours away from surrendering to authorities and potentially this just in, may be only months away from trial. minutes ago fulton county d.a. fani willis asked a judge to set the trial for all 19 defendants for october 23rd of this year.

that's just 60 days from now. these are live pictures outside the notorious rice street jail where tonight trump will be booked on felony charges for a fourth time. also, late word that trump's arraignment will be televised presenting a decidedly different challenge for a man who built his career as a reality tv star. plus, digging into last night's republican debate did we see an alternative to donald trump or an alternative universe where candidates are trying to pretend he doesn't exist. and a day after a plane reportedly carrying yevgeny prigozhin falls out of the sky, still no official word on why or how or even if prigozhin was really on board. russian lawmakers warning against, quotes hasty conclusions, even as others point fingers that russian president vladimir putin and putin himself going so far as to send prigozhin's family his condolences. my conversation with former

deputy national security adviser ben rhodes is coming up. a lot to get to today, but we start in atlanta. donald trump's surrender on more than a dozen felony charges now just hours away, not just a hugely consequential political and legal moment, but if trump has his way, a made for tv event that will ensure his picture and potentially his mug shot flood the internet, dominate news coverage, and all the free publicity and potential fund-raising opportunities that come with it. now, on the ground security personnel have imposed what's described as a hard lockdown, sealing off the area around the rice street jail. when trump arrives, his motorcade is expected to enter through the southern gate. we are not expecting to see him when he actually goes in to be processed. we should note, there's been a crowd of demonstrators outside that jail all day long, although the number is closer to dozens than hundreds despite trump reposting calls for a big

protest. with no defendants having to come in so far today, trump would be the tenth out of 19th to surrender leaving the others less than 24 hours to give themselves up. we should note we just learned mark meadows had his bond set at $100,000, and meanwhile, the former president talked about the case against him last night. still publicly expressing confidence that it can only help his political fortunes. >> i think the people of our country don't get enough credit for how smart they are, and i'm not sure i would have said this ten years ago, but they get it, you know, they really get it. when somebody gets indicted your poll numbers go down. when somebody gets indicted you announce ladies and gentlemen, i'll be leaving to spend time with my family. but i got indicted four times,

all trivia, nonsense, it's all [ bleep ]. >> i want to bring in vaughn hillyard, lisa rubins, again keys fleming is a former d.a. in dekalb county. vaughn, we just learned that fani willis has asked for an october 23rd date for all 19 defendants. that is lightning quick by any standard. what more can you tell us? >> reporter: right, look, chris, the activit defendants are look different trial start dates. you have donald trump who has urged prosecutors and judges to not begin their trials until the conclusion of the 2024 election, but kenneth chesebro when he turned himself in yesterday, part of the urging from his defense team was to have a speedy trial. well, 24 hours later you have district attorney fani willis putting in a file and a motion to have the trial date start now in the end of october, just two

months from now indirectly referenced the request from kenneth chesebro to have a speedy trial, and so in essence, you know, this is a district attorney who began this criminal investigation back in february of 2021. she's been working on this investigation and this case if ultimately she were to bring an indictment as she did for two and a half years. these defense teams have contended that they need more time to adequately go through the evidence and the material that the district attorney has in order to properly defend their clients. but now it's going to be ultimately up to a judge when this trial date starts. initially last week fani willis had requested this trial date to start on march 4th of next year, which would be the day before super tuesday, i'll let our legal experts go more into what the normal time line is for such a trial as this to begin, but in any case, two months from now would be a very quick trial date, and of course you can look at the political consequences for donald trump if, in fact,

the judge were to begin this trial that quickly. >> what's her play here, do you imagine here, lisa? i can almost hear the collective panicking that's going on or at least the getting ready of filings by defense attorneys saying this can't happen. >> reporter: well, you know, chris, in addition to their saying this can't happen, we also have a question of where this case is going to be tried in the first place. vaughn was talking about sort of the different interests among defendants about timing, but they also have different interests in terms of where this case is tried. mark meadows has a hearing on his motion to remove the case to federal court on monday. that's an evidentiary hearing and we've since learned that fani willis has subpoenaed two witnesses, georgia secretary of the state brad raffensperger and fran watson who was telephoned by trump personally before that

infamous january 2nd call. monday's hearing i think will give us a good indication of whether mark meadows is likely to succeed in having this case moved to federal court at all. >> gwen you know very well the way the courts work in georgia. how fast is this? is this the norm? >> first of all, i think it's important to understand that anytime a defendant files a demand for speedy trial, the prosecutor has to try that case either within the existing term of court, which would end at the end of august, or the next term of court, which ends at the end of october. so by receiving this motion, the d.a. really does not have any other option other than to attempt to schedule the trial before the end of october. a jury must be sworn by the end of the succeeding term, from when the demand was filed.

so in that sense, the timing is the norm, when a d.a. is presented with this type of motion. obviously this is the type of case that is complex. we will wait and see the extent to which other defendants may now file motions to try to sever their cases from mr. chesebro's case, but all of those decisions will be up to the judge. and again, this is a prosecutor that is pursuing a rico charge. i believe it would be her preference to try even together because all of of the acts and allegations are interrelated under that first count of the indictment. >> so we also learned today, lisa, that donald trump changed lawyers just hours before surrendering. what, if anything, does that tell you? what might be going on here? >> i really don't know what's going on, chris, and a lot of us are scratching our heads. he's been with drew finling for a long time in trump world

relative to the times he spent with other criminal defense attorneys. his new criminal defense lawyer steve sadow is largely understood to be one of the premier criminal defense lawyers in georgia. he has achieved remarkable results for a number of his clients in the past could including lots of personalities in the rap and entertainment world. what he hasn't apparently done, though, is represent a politician much less anyone like donald trump. and whether sadow can convince donald trump to be the disciplined client he needs him to be remains to be seen. this is a person that where a camera is will, as you said in your opening, make a spectacle. is donald trump capable of going through a televised arraignment as silently and generally cooperatively as he has the other arraignments? that remains to be seen. so i think i and others are looking forward to understanding exactly what happened to drew finling and why he's left the president's team on the eve of his surrender. >> i'm just looking at my iphone because we just got word that $75,000 is the bond amount for a

chicago-based publicist. tell us how he fits into this overall picture. vaughn. >> reporter: right, this is ultimately going to be another -- are you talking to me here, chris? >> yes. >> reporter: yeah, this is going to be another -- another key individual here who actually formerly worked as a publicist to kanye west. when you're talking about characters involved here, this is another tricky one. you're dealing with somebody here, who is a part of an effort to the allegation is part of an effort to pressure ruby freeman and shaye moss, those two fulton county workers who were at the heart of voter fraud allegations here in fulton county. there was a scheme laid out by the district attorney in her indictment that laid out multiple individuals who were a part of this effort to pressure and essentially get these two

fulton county workers to admit that they had engaged in such voter fraud efforts. of course, it was laid out in the indictment and is laid out for all the public to hear, both ruby freeman and shaye moss were doing their civil duties and their civil service at the time here, but you're dealing with, again, when we're talking about 19 co-defendants with all very much competing interests, you have everyone from a former publicist to kanye west to the former president of the united states, chris. >> i mean, when you look at that lineup, gwen, it not like your typical rico case i don't think in that sense necessarily, but 19 people, what would that even look like legally and logistically? >> well, i think those are some of the challenges that the judge in this case, judge mcafee along with all of the defense teams and the d.a. are going to have to work out. again, normally, as a case proceeds to trial and discovery is shared, various motions are filed and ruled upon, some may

be favorable to defendants. some may be favorable to the district attorney. either way, as those decisions are made, defendants will start to make decisions about what is their best case in terms of do they want to go to trial, do they want to plead to lesser charges or fewer charges possibly in exchange for testimony? so this is the beginning of no doubt what will be a very active motions calendar between now and whenever the trial is, and i think the result of those motions will naturally whittle down the number of defendants that you see sitting across from the d.a. in an actual trial. >> gwen keys fleming, vaughn hillyard, lieu is a reuben, i think it's going to be that kind of day, a lot of activity outside the jail. meantime, a night trading barbs and pitching slogans all to a rowdy audience, but did anyone on last night's debate stage emerge as a real threat to

trump's front runner status. that's coming up in just 60 seconds. oming up in just 60 seconds. (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. (josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. (vo) for a limited time get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon.

so donald trump took what looked like a good bet, don't show up to the first republican debate, believing, he thought, no one on the stage is a real challenger, but did his bet pay off? he wasn't a dominant figure until nearly an hour in. >> we are going to take a brief moment and talk about the elephant not in the room. if former president trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? please raise your hand if you would. [ cheers and applause ] >> do you believe that mike pence did the right thing, senator scott? do you believe he did the right thing? >> absolutely. he did the right thing.

>> i've answered this before. >> so yes? >> why are we -- mike did his duty, i've got no beef with him. here's the thing, is this what we're going to be focusing on? >> mike pence stood for the constitution. and he deserves not grudging credit. he deserves our thanks as americans. >> that got some applause, but the hard shots against trump very few, whether it's better for him to be largely ignored is an open question. nbc's ali vitali joins us from mill woo key. eugene daniels is "politico's" white house correspondent, co-author of playbook, and matthew dowd is a former chief strategist for the bush/cheney 2004 campaign and senior msnbc political analyst. welcome all. so matthew, did trump make the right bet in deciding not to debate? >> i think absolutely in this case. he starts out with a 40 point lead, nobody stands out. i was thinking about this last

night after the debate. it's a bit like the republican voters, they go to emerald city to sea the wizard of oz, and they're told they only can -- they can only meet the mayor of munchkin land and members of the lollipop guild and the lullaby league and that's the end of the result of this debate. eight people in most republicans' minds are diminutive and donald trump is still their guy, and i actually think he made a smart move, though i think it lacked courage, he made a smart political move not to show. >> that's for him, and let's talk about the others, i'm not going to be able to get the lolly pop kid song out of my head for the rest of the day. one way that measures who dominates is speaking time. last night trump's former vp spoke the most, more than 12 minutes, while the highest polling candidate at the center of the stage, ron desantis came in fourth trailing vivek ramaswamy and chris christie. i wonder if just the dynamics surprised you at all and do you

think we saw any trump alternatives emerge? >> yeah, i think for mike pence, i think we were probably all surprised how he came out speaking. this is the person who for four years as vice president and who when he was in congress wasn't really -- and the governor wasn't known as someone who looked like a puncher, right, on the debate stage. we've seen him debate tim kaine and kamala harris and, you know, largely people said he didn't do that well in those. so this was a different mike pence. he was kind of in cleaning up his legacy mode. he was willing to jump in and fight a lot more than we probably expected. the problem is this is a different republican party, he would probably rise in the polls. he still may, we have some time to figure out so, but the people that don't like him who are the trump supporters are not going to like the things that he said last night, right? his legacy building was about jibs. january 6th. they will like the abortion question, but they won't like january 6th. they won't like the fact that he

was someone talking about helping ukraine fight russia. those are things that this base of the republican party doesn't really go with, and i will say, did anyone change the dynamics of this race, which is what you want to do? i don't think so because you still have, donald trump 30, 40 points ahead of all of these folks, right? that is something that this -- no one did anything on that debate stage, i think, that changes the dynamics and makes it harder for donald trump to get the nomination. >> yeah, i guess i wonder if any of them, ali, made a move that could put them into second place. let's talk about the only woman on the stage, nikki haley. she had one of the night's most passionate moments in an exchange with mike pence over abortion. we all know how important that issue surprised a lot of people. she came across if you read a lot of the analysis as the grown-up in the room sometimes. tell us about that moment. >> yeah. >> reporter: look, she was flexing her credentials, not

just on the reproductive rights angle, but also on foreign policy having moments on both topics, but when it comes to abortion access, haley has tried to position herself as one of the more moderate members in this field. i think that's inextricably linked with the fact that she's the only woman in this field, not because it's only on women to speak about abortion access, certainly that's not the case. this is not a one gender issue, but at the same time, she's speaking to these issues with more credibility, frankly, because she's not talking about abortion and reproductive rights as some second degree issue. she is a woman who has had to make her own decisions and had her own struggles with children, her husband is adopted. all of these things factor into her view, and she is someone who supports restrictions on abortion access. she's not out of line with the rest of the field, but listen to how she talks about it because it sounds different than the other republicans, watch. >> when it comes to a federal ban, let's be honest with the american people and say it will

take 60 senate votes. it will take a majority of the house. so in order to do that, let's find consensus. >> nikki, you're my friend, but consensus is the opposite of leadership, when the supreme court returned this question to the american people, they didn't just send it to the states only. it's not a states only issue. it's a moral issue. >> well, when you're talking about a federal ban, be honest with the american people. >> i am being honest. >> we haven't had 45 pro-life senators in over 100 years, so no republican president can ban abortions. >> reporter: so look, chris, you and i both know this, the dynamics in the senate are such that they can't even pass codifications for roe right now, and democrats control it. so the idea that republicans could get into office and pass some kind of federal ban on abortion care is what nikki haley is saying, kind of plugging that nuanced position. but it also allows her, while it's letting her sound more moderate on the issue, it also allows her to skirt the specifics. for someone like pence, he's

said he clearly supports something, at least a 15-week ban, the same goes for senator tim scott. you saw florida governor ron desantis who signed a six-week abortion ban into law in florida, did it in the dead of night, but said he was proud to sign it. he dodged on whether or not he thinks that's the right federal position, but for haley, she has not delineated. when she was governor of south carolina, there was a 20-week abortion ban that she signed there. but again, this nuanced position that she's taking makes her sound different from the rest of the field, but it also allows her to not get into the specifics. i think it's a nuanced thing we've seen her to over the course of the last few months. >> you know who else sounded different on that stage, matthew, vivek ramaswamy without a doubt. tell me what you think, matthew. he was the most, i think, deliberately trumpian and have you ever seen a debater with a target on his back who took more delight in it than him? >> well, first, i think he put his target on his own back and

whether that was intentional or unintentional, i don't know, but he put it on his own back because of the way he treated the rest of the people on the stage, and i think they took personal umbrage out of that. i think if anybody has a rise in the polls, not significant to dent donald trump, it's vivek ramaswamy, and that actually is such a telling thing about the republican base today. he has no foreign policy experience. he has no experience at all in politics or governance. he says outlandish things just like donald trump, and you come away from the debate saying that's who republican primary voters might support more than less? it's such a tell -- a telling sign about where the republican base is now. >> yeah, in fact, eugene, the headline of playbook this morning was what the debate told us about a post-trump gop. it was a gloomy view from desantis, he said our country is in decline. i think those are the first words that came out of any candidates' mouths, malaise didn't work for jimmy carter,

but are these candidates successfully speaking to the 62% of republicans who believe america is in danger of failing as a nation? i think it was we are in a dark moment from vivek ramaswamy. >> yeah, i think they are. this is a republican party that for years has felt that, donald trump won largely because he spoke to white grievance, people who felt in this country that they had been left behind after the obama, you know, eight years of president obama, and so that is what this republican party continues to be. and yeah, vivek had a good night. he really did. the problem is if he wants to be the guy, he has to take out or be seen different than donald trump, and he was basically just donald trump jr. on the debate stage saying a lot of the same things. seeming like he was having fun, which is what donald trump does when he's on these debate stages and what we were talking about in playbook so much is that this is what a post-trump -- not a pre-trump, a post-trump gop could look like, right?

you actually have debate on abortion and ukraine. you have conversations that we have not seen on any forum where a bunch of republicans have been on any stage together for a long time because donald trump gets up there and calls people ugly and says he hates their hair. that is not what we saw last night. you got to see what a republican party with minority views within the party would actually look like. >> like climate change is a hoax. >> climate change -- exactly, things like that that are going to still be within the republican party moving forward. >> eugene daniels, ali vitali, you guys are great, thank you so much. matthew dowd, you're going to stay with me. we've got new details on the plane crash believed to have killed yevgeny prigozhin. a report from inside russia on how people there are responding. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. "chris jg reports" only on msnbc (bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show.

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vladimir putin with quick and some might argue tactless words of sympathy following the presumed death of russian mercenary yevgeny prigozhin, a former close confidant who of course later posed the greatest challenge to his decades long rule. shortly before we came on the air, putin offered his condolences to the families of the victims of yesterday's plane crash saying that prigozhin was a man of complicated fate who made serious mistakes in his life, but then went on to help prigozhin as a talented man, a talented businessman who worked not only in russia but also abroad in africa in particular. those remarks doing little to quell the growing speculation around prigozhin's fate. russia's air authority says prigozhin's name was on the manifest of plane that crashed northwest of moscow killing all ten passengers. you're seeing video of the jet plummeting from the sky. nbc news has not yet confirmed that prigozhin was on that

flight and the kremlin hasn't said whether his body was actually recovered. in fact, we may never know why it crashed. we also heard from ukrainian president zelenskyy today who denied involvement in the incident telling reporters we have nothing to do with this. everyone understands who has. i want to bring in ben rhodes, former deputy national security adviser, ben, always good to see you. well, it was very interesting today, this broke while we were on the air with this program. so many questions still, but i just want to start with your reaction as you're watching all of this unfold, ben. >> well, look, it's not particularly surprising when you cross putin like that, you tend to end up dead at some point, whether you fall off a balcony or whether you're poisoned. what does set this part is this wasn't a mysterious accident. this has all the hallmarks of a military takedown of a play flying from moscow to st.

petersburg. it killed ten people including some of the wagner high commander, kind of a decapitation of wagner. that's quite dramatic to start with. >> can i just stop you there, why would they all be on a plane together in the first place? >> well, i mean, i think, you know, they tend to stick together. prigozhin has some key lieutenants who have been with him. i think what's interesting and what's on a lot of people's minds is why prigozhin thought he could survive this mutiny, and i think he probably believed that wagner was indispensable to putin, both because of the fighting that they do in ukraine but also because of this vast network that they have in africa, in parts of the middle east where they help run governments. they help control natural resources and mines. they run all kinds of elicit business, and so they must have felt on some level that they could have dodged the fate of so many other people who have crossed putin because they have made themselves indispensable. turns out nobody's indispensable

to vladimir putin. there's only one person at the end of the day who's indispensable, and that's putin. >> this is a guy who has survived. he has been incredibly brutal. he has found himself in very difficult circumstances on any number of occasions. he is a survivor. there is almost no one else who pays attention to what goes on in russia who thought that vladimir putin could be trusted who didn't think that prigozhin had a target on his back. that's why it doesn't -- i'm just trying to figure out why he would think that somehow he was going to be different? >> well, look, yeah, because nobody knows better than prigozhin the revenge that putin exacts on his enemies because sometimes prigozhin was the one who did it. it's hard to get in the psychology of a guy like this who's basically a sociopathic. prigozhin was out there nihilistic awful stuff, throwing human waves essentially at the ukrainian lines in the ukrainian

town of bakhmut. and look, the fact that he took it upon himself to launch that mutiny in the first place showed that this is a guy flying very close to the sun. this is a guy who's willing to take enormous risks. clearly he thought, i think, that he had maybe enough of the goods on puti. he knew enough of how this network he'd built ran that he could escape fate for a while. but you can't in vladimir putin's russia. that's the message that was sent. i don't believe that that -- look, does it establish that putin is in charge in russia, absolutely, but i don't believe this is a good swrout come for putin. if you told putin six months ago that the wagner group was going to march on moscow in a mutiny and then you're going to have to decapitate its command, that's not the playbook he wanted to run. the realities these created these compeing fiefdoms in his season, wagner was one of them, the fsb, the intelligence service and others, and that's not working.

they're trying to consolidate this into the regular military command structure and it's causing all kinds of friction. >> well, in the meantime, within russia mourners have been gathering at these makeshift memorials for prigozhin. look at this soldier, this is southern russia. he's openly weeping. diana mag nay with our sister network sky news reported on how his presumed death is being received. let's take a listen. >> reporter: i'm here at the wagner center or formerly the wagner center where there is a memorial. people have been coming really for the last two hours that we've been here and laying flowers. these are ultra patriots, people who really stood behind yevgeny prigozhin. they've said we don't want to talk to western media, one man who lost his son at bakhmut coming, a lot of people here shedding tears, one woman who was clearly an ultra patriot saying, you know, this is just an enormous loss for russia. i wanted somebody like starlin,

prigozhin would have been a man like that. it is a steady stream and it does show you how many people here, especially in st. petersburg did very much respect yevgeny prigozhin, and i think that was the point amongst his men also. he was a leader of men. he did go and get dirty town at the front lines with his rank and file, and i think that's why president putin didn't quite know what to do with him after the mutiny because there were so many in the wagner ranks, but also within the military itself who agreed with the fact that they didn't feel that the military command were leading them right and that they actually wanted a commander who got down and dirty with them in the trenches. but two months later, this is what happened, and of course we don't know who's behind it, but it is hardly surprising that yevgeny prigozhin having really caused that vladimir putin the most critical dangerous moment of his career should come to a

sticky end, i think we won't know what happened. there is a great deal of speculation, but one editorial i read this morning and tabloids said the west will blame the kremlin for this, the kremlin will blame the west and on pro-wagner channels, it says traitors are responsible for this, but fundamentally the russian people will accept whatever narrative it is that the kremlin feeds them. >> i wonder if you think that's right. he obviously did have prigozhin did a lot of loyalty not only among his fighters but among russians. what do you make of the reaction you're seeing? what might it mean for putin? >> well, look, prigozhin was quite popular, and his approval ratings were over 60% early in the war. in part because he was in the field in military uniform with the soldiers. i think there's a sense that putin's sitting there behind a

very big table very far away from the front. a lot of corrupt oligarch elite. it's worth watching what happens in the far right nationalist elements of the russian population that has been dissatisfied with the russian elite and in some cases putin. what happens with the general public. i think this message was meant for the russian elite from putin, assuming that putin did this. this is a message to the elite to not cross me is and that they may try to blame all manner of other people with their media channels. i'd be looking for cracks in that public opinion. i'd be looking to what happens to those wagner fighters? do they get out of the fight in ukraine? what happens to this wagner network in africa that has been quite useful in russia. does that atrophy? there are a lot of open questions going forward. what's clear is this is the most dramatic of the many turns putin has made in terms of suppressing dissent in russia, and it's militarized dissent.

that is an escalation of the kind of militarized repression inside of russia and no matter what putin does to kind of obfuscate or create conspiracy theories about who did this, i think at the end of the day, the russian people have some sense this guy got killed for crossing putin. and that may not be a clean shot for putin with public opinion. it doesn't mean he's in immediate danger, but over time these are the kinds of things that start to eat away at a system that putin has built that is fundamentally a rotten, corrupt system with one man sitting on top of a kind of rotted kleptocracy. >> and if he's willing to do this now, if he did indeed do this, what is he willing to do next? ben rhodes, so many questions, always great to have you on the program. thanks, ben. >> thanks, chris. let's take a look live at the fulton county jail. of course this is where former president trump is expected to turn himself in later today. up next, former georgia state lawmaker takes us inside the case against rudy giuliani and

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this is a live look at the fulton county jail, let's take it, where it's already been a very busy hour, and breaking news because just moments ago we learned that former senior department of justice official jeffrey clark has been granted a bond of $100,000. we've also learned three other new things this hour. fulton county d.a. fani willis asked a judge to set the trial date for all 19 defendants on october 23rd. former trump white house chief of staff mark meadows bond has been set for $100,000, and trevian kutti, former publicist for kanye west, that bond is $75,000. all of it is as former president trump is expected to turn himself in at the jail in just a few hours. we also now know that trump is

set to help his former lawyer and co-defendant rudy giuliani fund-raise to help cover his reported nearly $3 million in legal fees. some of the 13 charges giuliani faces in georgia are directly connected to a meeting he had with georgia state legislators back in december of 2020. as part of his alleged attempts to overturn georgia's presidential election results. joining me now, former state representative in georgia, ranita shannon, she was one of the members in the room for that presentation from rudy giuliani. thank you so much for being with us. i want to play just so people can remember it, what giuliani said during that house committee meeting that you were in, and it's mentioned specifically in fulton county d.a. fani willis's indictment. >> i mean, there it is right in front of our faces, and they are denying it and trying to lecture us that we're pushing fraud.

it's about the future of this country. if you don't stop it the first time you catch it, this is when you go down. >> can you take us inside that room in that meeting, what was it like to be there listening to rudy giuliani? what was your impression? >> well, thank you for having me. you know, that day i remember it vividly, it was very surreal because here we had rudy giuliani as well as the trump lawyers who had been meeting with us all day for a governmental affairs committee meeting, and they were trying to convince us that our election was completely fraudulent and that we as lawmakers had a duty and responsibility to throw out the votes of georgians and just decide the election for georgia's voters. and rudy giuliani in particular, i remember he was so cavalier about the fact that we just needed to do this and this should not be -- this was totally legitimate for us to throw out the votes and just decide that trump had won the election. what we're seeing now, the accountability that we are seeing is so very important for

georgians because they need to understand and know that when they vote, their vote will count and that we cannot have rogue actors coming to georgia and just deciding that people do not have the right to elect their leaders. >> so the indictment says that it was the december 10th meeting an over act in furtherance of a conspiracy. how do you see what happened and how do you see this indictment? >> i think the indictment is very well written, and i think it really speaks to what we endured that day meeting with the trump lawyers in the committee meetings because the indictment spells out exactly what they did. they were trying to convince us that we should basically use a power that none of us even believed that we had to throw out the votes of georgians and decide who won the election, and so the indictment, especially under rudy giuliani clearly spells out how he was trying to persuade us to violate our oath of office, and that is how most of us saw it. i mean, there were a few republicans who did not immediately reject the idea, but if you go back and watch the

tape of what happened that day in the committee meeting, the audience, the public will see that most of us were, you know, not going along with what he was suggesting and thought that what is he was suggesting was illegitimate. at the end of the day, rudy giuliani and the trump team were trying to involve lawmakers in a conspiracy and a coup against democracy and a coup against the country. >> i think the word incredulous comes to mind, i don't think there would be many doubters when they see the looks on your faces, renitta shannon, thank you so much for being on the program. we really appreciate it. give them something to remember, we're going to break down the debate performances candidate by candidate. who has a shot of moving up in the polls and attracting lots of money?

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(josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. (vo) for a limited time get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. after post game of the first round of the republican political playoffs lining up the winners and losers from the first debate. no trophies awarded but something more desirable in this competition, headlines, donor dollars and maybe poll spikes. all that, arguably the only reason to get on that stage. job one, leave the audience with something to remember you by. >> now that everybody's gotten their prepared slogans out of the way, we can have a real discussion now. the reality and the fact of the matter is -- >> was that one of yours? >> not really, mike.

we're going to have fun tonight. and the reality is you have a bunch of people, professional politicians, super pac puppets, following slogans handed over by their 400 page super pacs last week. let us be honest as republicans. i'm the only person on the page who isn't bought and paid for so i can say this -- >> the climate change agenda is a hoax. and the reality is the anticarbon agenda is the wet blanket on our economy. and so the reality is more people are dying of bad climate change policies than they are of actual climate change. >> i don't think we need to fact check that one, matthew dowd, welcome back. quick take, one by one, acknowledge number two, ron desantis, what happened? >> he continues, he's like the backup quarterback that every time he's given an opportunity to go in the game, he throws

interceptions and fumbles the ball. i don't think he did anything to advance himself. he didn't do anything to cut into donald trump, and so, again, it's just another example of a guy that's had so much promise continues to throw interceptions. >> vivek ramaswamy warmed up if the debate playing shirtless tennis, do you think he won over any voters? >> he probably had an opportunity because he played the junior trump in this debate to get some but the problem is he's probably going to get some at the expense of the other people on the stage, not donald trump. he really reminds me of the guy, the corporate consultant that goes in with a huge small on his face, fires you and takes your family off health care. but he probably gains votes but at the expense of the people to his left and right, not the person that wasn't in the room. >> chris christie, deeply unpopular in the party. he was booed really loudly when he was introduced but also seemed to get a little bit of the audience on his side now and

again. what do you think, was it a wash or how do you read it? >> i think it was a huge missed opportunity for him. i think he came in a lot of opportunities to go after donald trump. to me it reminds me of the pit bull that bites the wrong person and he was biting the wrong person last night. he should have stayed 100%, stayed on donald trump, criticized donald trump. i'm actually surprised he didn't criticize donald trump for not being here. to me, a huge missed opportunity. he swung punches wildly, but didn't hit his real opponentment. >> former vice president mike pence made the experience argument especially against vivek ramaswamy, let's listen to that. >> i was a house conservative leader before it was cool. i actually pushed a deficit reduction act that was the last time we actually reduced the national debt in the united states. when i was the leader of house conservatives. i balanced budgets and cut taxes when i was governor. i mean, look, joe biden has

weakened this country at home and abroad. now is not the time for on the job training. we don't need to bring in a rookie. we don't need to bring in people who have no experience. >> he actually swung a lot, did he land some punches? >> the problem with him goes so against type for him in this race, and the funny thing about it, he constantly lauds the trump pence administration, so why are you running against donald trump who ran that administration in the course of this, so i actually don't get the rationale for him in this race. he doesn't create passion behind him. if you want somebody who's going to do the same policies as donald trump go to donald trump. >> nikki haley, the first to go after others on the stage and the first challenger to announce she would run against trump in this race, how did she come off?

>> to me she's a lot like, i mean, i think she had a very good amount of points, the problem it's nothing she has said in the last four months when she has been running. it's like the person who misbehaves for six days a week, and shows up for church for one hour and wants you to call her a saint after she has gone to church for one hour. there's no consistency in her message. if she took what she said last night and basically did it for the last four months and does it for the next four months, then i think she has an opportunity, but that's just not her. and a perfect example of that, after her criticism of donald trump, when they were asked, just like mike pence, if donald trump is convicted will you support him as nominee of the party, she raised her hand. i don't get who she is, she shows up on church on sunday and wants to be praised for her spirituality. >> but what do you really think my friend, always great to see you, appreciate it. >> you too, thank you.

right now, we are live, our cameras are there outside the fulton county jail where former president trump is expected to turn himself in today. i'm going to be talking to joyce vance who's gone toe-to-toe in court with the new lawyer who donald trump just hired today. that's ahead. just hired today. that's ahead (bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon.

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we are a lot more to cover in this second hour of "chris