flying from new jersey to atlanta. when he gets there, it's expected he will be treated like anyone else, finger printed and weighed. will he also have a mug shot taken? rudy giuliani did, along with all of the other defendants so far. why wouldn't trump? and speaking of the other defendants, mark meadows just got booked. he tried to get a federal judge to intervene and put a stay on his arrest, but the judge said no. what does that mean for his motion to remove the case to federal court? a judge hears that argument on monday. and what is this news about an october 23rd trial date? d.a. fani willis proposed it in response to kenneth chesebro's request for a speedy trial. chesebro says yes, that's good, and donald trump is now saying no. what will the judge say? it's all literally happening right now, changing by the minute, so let us get to the reporters on the ground. joining us is nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard who's outside of the jail. msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin who's outside of the courthouse,

and the "atlanta journal-constitution" senior editor trump grand jury coverage shannon mccaffrey. i want to get to mark meadows and the jail, but lisa, i have to start with you, these dueling filings, talking about a trial date, october 23rd. d.a. fani willis and kenneth chesebro are in agreement, yeah, that's fine. does that mean we might see a trial with just him or him and a few others as soon as october? >> reporter: possibly, but in order for donald trump to get out from under that trial date, a judge is first going to have to decide that his case should be severed from the rest of them, and the standard for zef whether state court or federal court, that the prejudice to you in having to sit next to another defendant is so high that you can't get a full and fair trial

sits next to them. the fact that trump would rather be on the campaign trail, for example, doesn't constitute that kind of prejudice, nor does the fact that he has other indictments going on simultaneously. it remains to be seen -- first of all, we haven't seen trump's motion. he's just filed a notice that he intends to file his own motion, and it remains to be seen whether a judge will entertain that, and then of course there's the other issue, is this case going to be in the state court to begin with. i think mark meadow's motion to remove to federal court is likely a loser, but on monday we have an evidentiary hearing. >> i know brad raffensperger has been subpoenaed by d.a. fani willis. >> it's like a mini trial. think about it that way. d.a. willis and her papers attached multiple excerpts from depositions given to the january 6th investigation in the house from cassidy hutchinson, from

john mcatee, mike shirkey, a michigan state legislature, and attached a report, different from the special counsel investigating these cases. that's a permanent office of the government that investigates likely violations of the hatch act, and she did that, of course, to show that what mark meadows was doing and what he's accused of here is not in service of his federal duties or under color of federal law, rather he was electioneering and anything in violation of federal law can't be in service of it. >> could this have been kenneth chesebro trying to call d.a. will's bluff, maybe perhaps guessing she wasn't ready for this? >> that's certainly what it seems like. when he filed that, you know, we had one source that we talked to said this is like throwing a legal bomb into the case. you know, it really kind of upsets things and throws her off

balance. it does seem from the response she filed, she's ready for this. she's saying, okay, fine, bring it on. we can go in october, and there was a lot of criticism or at least speculation about why it was taking fani willis so long to bring the case. now that we see the 19 defendants and all the sorts of hoops they're going to have to go through, maybe that time was well spent. >> perhaps she was preparing for a trial as soon as october. >> that's right! vaughn, let's talk about what's happening where you are. mark meadows, we believe he's inside the jail right now? >> reporter: he may have left the jail. there's been black suvs that have come in and out. mark meadows, since the 2020 election has been somebody who's not been a public presence. we have not spotted him in georgia ourselves. we know in the about last hour he began going through the booking process. we don't know if he left jail or

not. he did post his bond of $100,000. mark meadows, essentially went here before the 12:30 deadline tomorrow. he initially wanted to have his surrender deadline pushed back into next week, after his monday hearing when a federal judge will hear his motion to have his case moved from the state court to the federal court. but fani willis, she pushed back in a filing yesterday afternoon to the judge making the case that he was serving in a political capacity, not a federal officer capacity, and therefore, until he proves to the federal court otherwise that it should be heard there, he must surrender like the other 18 defendants by the 12:30 p.m. friday deadline. that is what led him to atlanta today. we know jeffrey clark, katy, is here in atlanta, yet he's not formally gone through the booking process. one other note, harrison floyd who is another codefendant, part of an alleged scheme to pressure ruby freeman, the election worker, is currently inside the

jail. has not posted bond and not come up with a bond agreement. he's the one defendant who it appears will remain at the jail until he's able to come up with the funds to post bond. the big question here is over the next six hours is what the jail and parameter around it will look like upon donald trump's arrival later on this evening. >> we have seen a number of mug shots so far, including rudy giuliani's which came out late yesterday. we're still waiting for the mug shot from mark meadows. we're waiting for the mug shot from harrison floyd, et cetera. let's talk about vaughn. donald trump, a little bit more, though. do we expect that he's going to get a mug shot, number one, and then just, let's talk about the fact that he's changed lawyers. all of a sudden, this morning, hours before he's going to get booked. >> reporter: right. this is part of the donald trump legal journey. he's somebody who's struggled to retain counsel. partly because of frustrations

of the lawyers who have represented him, but also part of the frustrations of donald trump himself. we are trying to put together what in this particular circumstance led him to essentially oust drew findling, his attorney in georgia over the course of the last year and bring on steven sadow who is another prominent atlanta attorney but he was only formally recognized as his lead counsel this morning. he was the attorney that put forward a filing pushing back on the october 23rd deadline, and requesting to have the cases severed. but for donald trump, the expectation is this evening at 7:30 p.m. when he arrives to this jail, he will go through the process like any other defendant. of course there are going to be some different security restrictions in place. secret service has been keen to work with local law enforcement to ensure the security of the former president and leading gop contender. we know that the sheriff here had suggested that he

anticipated each of the defendants to go through the normal booking process and for each of them to get a mug shot. of course we'll find out this evening whether in fact that happens with donald trump. do not expect that mug shot if it happens to come out until late tomorrow afternoon. we get those near sun down on a daily basis, but for donald trump here, and his representation from steven sadow, i think that it is notable because, you know, this is an attorney that is now just taking on this case after he had other attorneys working on it for the last year, and if, in fact, the judge were to determine that this should go to trial by october 23rd, suddenly his defense team has a complicated case to put together over the course of 60 days, and that is a challenge when you bring on new attorneys who are in charge of defending the former president on very serious state charges. >> we see another black suv with tinted windows getting in line to get into the jail right now.

i wonder who could be in that car. shannon, let's talk a little bit more about stephen sadow, this new lawyer, a prominent lawyer down there in georgia. can you give us more about him? >> yeah, he's very well known in legal circles, a criminal defense lawyer all of his life. he's handled a lot of high profile cases, i believe usher and a few other people are among the people he's represented. he's very well known for being combative, but for being very smart, handled a lot of federal cases, which will be interesting to see if the case ends up in federal court if that will matter, but he also represented, he was in the trial that involved ray lewis, an nfl linebacker who was charged with murder after sort of a post super bowl party, and he represented one of the defendants in that. so he's really well known in legal circles down here, very well respected and it will be interesting to see if he picks up where drew findling left off.

>> what's his success rate? >> i don't know what his success rate is, but he certainly has no trouble getting clients who are willing to pay a pretty hefty fee. >> the judge in this case, again, let's remind everyone, he is brand new, six months on the bench. that's a lot for him to take on right now, shannon, and already being asked now to decide whether or not to sever donald trump or other defendants from this trial and maybe break out kenneth chesebro to have his trial first, that's already a big test of his judicial chomps. >> that's right. he's 34 years old. he's been on the bench six months. you know, he's certainly going to have a trial by fire here. but we've talked to a lot of folks who know him. he's really well thought of. he's very smart. he's got conservative chops. he led his college chapter of the federalist society at uga law school. but he also worked under fani

willis, in the d.a.'s office. you know, he has credentials on both sides of the aisle. you know, i'll be interested to see when he holds his first hearing, you know, what his demeanor is like, and you know, how he will handle, you know, the eyes of the world with him on this trial. >> shannon, vaughn, lisa, thank you guys for starting us off. do not go far. coming up next, we're going to get more on the legal aspect of this. i am curious, an october 23rd trial date, how possible is that? we're going to ask some experts. do not go anywhere. some expert. do not go anywhere (bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon.

(bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. . joining us now, nbc news senior legal correspondent, laura jarrett. former manhattan district attorney and nbc legal analyst, catherine christian, and former assistant general for national security, mary mccord. ladies, great to have you. october 23 lt. >> not going to happen.

>> not going to happen? >> no. but she's putting down a marker, setting a tone for the case. >> saying bring it on. >> she called ken chesebro's bluff. maybe he's ready to go. as catherine has been pointing out all day, defendants risk something by saying, okay, i'm ready to go right now. he has to sort of be ready and face a d.a. who's been prosecuting this case and been ready for two years. she knows this in and out, and so do all of her deputies, and to be able to have the time to process all of that discovery, it's a risky move. it's a gamble. >> and only thing that mr. chesebro and his attorneys know about the case is in the indictment. and the whole case is not in that indictment. it's very easy for his attorneys to say let's do it because if mr. chesebro is convicted, the attorneys don't go to jail. >> why would they say that if they haven't gotten discovery, why would they say, yeah, sure. >> i don't think it's smart. i don't want to tell other lawyers what to do.

it's one thing if you have a client languishing in jail. he's out. all 19 of them are out. you know, there's a reason why defense attorneys delay. witnesses suddenly change their mind, their memories t evidence doesn't get better. you want to delay. you hope something, you know, catastrophic will happen, oh, the trial doesn't go. to say let's do it right away, she was right. she should say, all right, you want it, let's go for it, and i agree it's not going to happen because the other 17 say he may want to go to trial. we don't want to go to trial. >> is it possible, even if it's not october 23rd. say it's december, that maybe he gets a faster trial than the other defendants do. >> yes, if the judge agrees and, you know, that the other 18 don't have to go to trial, he will. i still don't think it's smart because, you know, as laura said, these prosecutors know it like the back of their hand, their opening summations have been opened. >> is there a risk for the prosecutor to lay out evidence

in a trial beforehand to allow the other defendants to prepare themselves for what may come down their way. >> if there's a conviction and strong evidence, you're saying, you see this, you want to go to trial now. obviously if it's not strong evidence and there's an acquittal, then that's something else, but they seem to believe they have a strong case. >> one person who has already objected, the former president, so he's not interested in seeing that preview. he's saying, hold on, wait a minute. >> he probably wants it to be in 2029. >> it's worth noting one person has objected, the former president. >> and the leader of the conspiracy, allegedly. >> the judge is going to have a lot on his hands. already does have a lot on his hands. mary, give me the sense of what might look like a fair trial date for all 19 defendants. what time frame is that? >> well, i think a more reasonable trial date, the one still aggressive, is the one that fani willis originally proposed which i believe was in

early march, and i think she was probably doing a couple of things there, probably sort of trying to juggle that date with the other trials that had been set, and maybe then had been proposed. i shouldn't say set, because they haven't all been set yet. we are waiting on monday, judge tania chutkan for the district court of columbia, presumably will be setting a trial date in the january 6th related federal case. so i think part of it is she was trying to kind of go in between the dates that she already knew were out there as possibly pending. also, i think, picking a date that she thought was reasonable, in the time it would take to turn over the discovery, the defendants to go through discovery and preparing for trial. frankly, that's the earliest i can imagine a case like this going. that's still a very forecast procession to trial with 19 defendants and as many counts as there are in this case. for what it's worth, i don't

expect this will go to trial with 19 defendants. i don't think everyone will stay in this case. i think some will try to cut a deal with the government for a whole variety of different reasons, and it might get slimmed down considerably before we go to trial. >> what might it look like for, i don't know, kenneth chesebro if it is him or the lower level defendants like harrison floyd. >> and you can correct me if i'm wrong because you know this better than anyone, once you assert your speedy trial rights, my understanding is then all the discussions with the government on some sort of plea are off the table? >> it depends on the prosecutor. some might say, okay, we can discuss it. it depends. it's like, you know, there are some who will say, take this offer by this date or else. i don't think that's really justice. that's just my opinion. i think all the way up until trial you can, depending on who the defendant is, you know, make a decision, particularly if they're lower level. the lower level ones, you don't want to like, you know, put them

away. >> she charged 19 people so that someone would cooperate, right. i don't think when she said she was ready to go to trial with all 19, that was a little bit of puffery. >> what number do we think she will go to trial with, ten, more than ten, less than ten? >> i think it's less than ten. the lower rungs, middle levels, they don't want to go to prison, and they will, you know, the oneoffs, you know. >> i wonder what it's like walking into this jail and getting booked and looking around and thinking to yourself. >> it's a reality check. >> this is not like a pleasant place to hang out. they're taking selfies and smiling in the pictures. this is a place under federal investigation for how it treats people in that facility. this is not like a country club like type of atmosphere. >> let's wonder how mark meadows experienced it. here is his mug shot, the first we're getting of it. he was booked a few moments ago. presumably now that we have his mug shot, he's probably not at the jailhouse any longer.

we don't have confirmation of that. we are waiting for jeffrey clark, formerly, a doj guy. clark is going out there and saying that this is like, you know, living in iran with the mu lahs, tweeting about that today. jeffrey clark, what are your thoughts on him as we speak? >> well, you know, he's trying desperately not to have to turn himself in this week with his ploy to try to remove his case to federal court and to seek, you know, an emergency restraining order or stay of the proceedings so that he wouldn't have to appear. and you know, when you read actually his pleading, it's really a stretch. he's particularly, i think, for someone like me who spent more than 20 years at the department of justice, you know, the crimes he's alleged to have been involved in in this rico case are frankly that, we know he's alleged to have been involved in

in one of the unnamed, unindicted coconspirators in the jack smith case, referring to jeffrey clark. these are the kinds of things that not only are in violation of federal law and georgia law but they're really in violation of your oath of office when you are a department of justice attorney and so i think he is scared. i think he does not want to be on the other side of the v, as it were, in criminal case, and he's worried as a former prosecutor, well, as a former department of justice attorney about, you know, how he will be treated if he were to actually ever have to serve time. in either the georgia matter or in the federal investigation. >> that is a really good point. i hadn't even thought of that. mary mccord, thank you so much for being with us. catherine and laura, i know you're sticking around, i want to get into the meadows stuff, and what's going to happen on monday with the georgia case and the special counsel trial date.

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in his first public acknowledgment of wednesday's crash, vladimir putin offered condolences to the family of his former close confidant, yevgeny prigozhin. the wagner group leader is presumed to be one of ten passengers killed when an aircraft went down north of moscow yesterday. the top lieutenant was also on board. nbc news has not confirmed their claims and the cause of the crash is also unknown. joining us now staff writer at the new yorker, masha, thank you so much for being here. the pentagon has spoken about what they think happened, i do want to play that. >> on the plane that was carrying prigozhin that went down in russia, was it a bomb that took the plane down? >> so a couple of things, i know there's a lot of interest in

this topic. i'll say right up front, first of all, our initial assessment is that it's likely prigozhin was killed. we're continuing to assess the situation. we don't have any information to indicate right now the press reporting stating that there was some type of surface-to-air missile that took down the plane. we assess that information to be inaccurate. >> two u.s. officials have told nbc news and courtney kube that the intelligence gathered pointed to sabotage as causing the plane crash, not a surface-to-air missile. we've seen when it comes to vladimir putin and those who don't agree with him or those that he's unhappy with, they've fallen off buildings. they've fallen off yachts, they have been poisoned. i think car bombs at one point shot. has there been explosion on a plane before? >> yes. >> there has? >> well, there was a russian

investigator who died in a private plane crash. so this was more than 20 years ago. i don't remember the exact date, but yes, murder by plane is also something that has happened. >> vladimir putin today giving his condolences. what are russians hearing when vladimir putin comes out and says that? >> i think what they're hearing is i'm in control, i carried out an operation that i planned. it was revenge served cold. it was, you know, putin loves to appear as a competent bureaucrat. he is a murderous bureaucrat, a genocide bureau cat, but he loves the bureaucrat in himself. this thing that he let two months pass, that he thought about it, that on the same day he took out prigozhin and his

top lieutenant, and he removed the general who had been in charge of the russian forces in ukraine who is clearly partly to blame for prigozhin's ability. general sirovikin, who allowed him to march to moscow and terrify putin. this is also important. this is a man who brought putin to his knees for a minute. he terrified him. he made him probably leave moscow, as far as we know. he certainly made him mount a defense of moscow, unlike anything that we have ever seen. so he had to avenge himself. >> what's in vladimir putin's future? i know it's impossible to predict this, but this is the closest we've seen somebody get to him or destabilize him. obviously two months to the day, there's something symbolic about taking out his closest rival in that way, and in this public

manner. but what is vladimir putin's future? does this end sooner or later for him? >> we know that most autocrats and most russian autocrats specifically die in office. so, you know, the odds are that he will die in office. >> die naturally or die -- >> or die somehow. but most likely die naturally. he, at this point, has served, has run russia for nearly as long as his nearest predecessor in this sense, joseph stalin. he is starting to institute a reign of terror that clearly looks to stalin's example as a sort of guide, and we know that those kinds of paranoid leaders who ruled for terror mostly manage to reach their natural end in office. there's a possibility of a coup,

but i think that possibility is less today than it was yesterday. >> what's it like to live in russia right now, to be a russian citizen in that country? >> well, clearly for some russian citizens, it's actually a sad day. we are seeing makeshift memorials all over the country, people bringing flowers, and let's not forget, prigozhin wasn't a man who staged an accidental insurrection against putin. he was a monster. he was an absolute just cannibalistic monster whose soldiers filmed themselves executing people that they considered traitors who are had his enemies, his perceived enemies, including journalist, poisoned and attacked all over russia. i mean, this is a man who had met his match in vladimir putin.

and in some ways, he was certainly much more outwardly cruel. so the fact that thousands of russians are clearly mourning this monster, and valorizing him is in my mind terrorizing. >> how does the west now see vladimir putin? does this change our posture towards him? >> i think we have known who he is for a very long time, and we have pretended not to know. that is our problem to reckon with. but we've known that this is a man who rules through terror. we know that this is a man who kills people that he thinks are traitors and now he had called prigozhin a traitor on national television on the day of prigozhin's uprising. so at that point, his death sentence was signed. i don't think we've learned anything new about putin at this point. >> mashagessen, thank you for

coming in on a busy day, we appreciate your time. hours before his surrender in fulton county, what's happening behind the scenes? i'm going to ask one of donald trump's former attorneys after the break. don't go anywhere. the break. don't go anywhere. i get 5g, tru, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv [♪♪] now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. did you know, sweat from stress is actually smellier than other kinds of sweat? that's why i use secret clinical antiperspirant. it provides 3x stress sweat protection. danielle? [♪♪] secret works. [♪♪] my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪

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shop your favorite brand sporting the monopoly tag for unlimited game tickets and get ready to win at lucky! donald trump is set to depart his bedminster residence soon in route to fulton county where he says he will be arrested. he will surrender, at 7:30 tonight at rice street jail.

joining us now is donald trump's former attorney and the special counsel investigation's tim par parlatore. it's great to have you. because you've been in the room and been a part of the team and left the team, i would love to get your thoughts on what might have been going on with this changing of attorneys this morning hours before donald trump is surrendering? >> well, it's really difficult to tell. i mean, the georgia legal team was always kind of kept compartmentalized away from us so we didn't have as much dealings with them, but, you know, it is something that you do sometimes see when an indictment comes down to all of a sudden switch attorneys right at the end. i mean, i don't think it's any knock on mr. findling, he's a phenomenal attorney, and you know, i think that the new guy that he's bringing in looks like he's very capable and, you know, very able to handle the specifics of a rico defense.

>> do you think it's because findling didn't want to be a part of it? was he pushed out? did he resign? is there somebody in donald trump's team he could have clashed with? any more insight? >> there's always somebody inside the team that we all clashed with, but i can't speak specifically for him. i don't know the specifics. so i wouldn't want to guess. >> in terms of this indictment, what we're seeing is a trial date that was initially set for much later from d.a. fani willis's initial filings to something that's been moved to october 23rd per her request. she's responding to ken chesebro who said october 23rd is great. donald trump says no. is it possible to get a defense together, even if you're ken chesebro by october 23rd. >> absolutely not. i mean, we're talking about a rico case.

you know, the discovery in this is going to be voluminous, it's going to be significant pretrial litigation over significant constitutional issues including whether this even constitutes a rico, and once you get past all of that, a case of this magnitude, a fraud case is one thing, but when you add the rico element, it lengthens the trial. the trial itself i would expect to last four months. >> why would his attorneys say yes to this? >> well, you know, the thing is, you know, we haven't even had an arraignment yet. you know, people have gone in to do the initial surrender, but they haven't had really the first appearance, so really any trial dates that anybody's talking about right now are completely fake, and that's something that we deal with all the time. when you have the initial trial date that's set at arraignment, nobody really has to check their calendar because we know it's a fake date, and it's going to get changed the moment somebody

files that first motion, so i think that to really try and read anything in to dates they're talking about now, wait and see, it will change. >> let me ask you about rudy giuliani. he turned himself in yesterday. we have his mug shot we can put on the screen. there's a lot of talk about his financial troubles. his bond was set at $150,000, and after he left the jail, he was seen going to a bail bondsman. finances for rudy giuliani, what can you tell us about how hard it might be for him to find adequate representation? >> oh, it's very hard. i mean, like i said, this is a case that i think the trial itself is going to take four months, which means you have to find attorneys that are willing to set aside their entire practice, not take on any new cases, not go into the office, not deal with anything else for over four straight months. that's an extremely expensive proposition, and so you can't find somebody that's just going to want to do that, you know, as

a favor. it is the kind of thing that could kill your practice. so, you know, it is going to cost a lot of money. for every single one of these defendants, and i think fani willis knows that. that's something the prosecutors often do is they bring a case that bleeds you dry and puts in a position you have to plead guilty. >> your client, bernie kerik was assisting him down in georgia. why does rudy giuliani need assistance? >> well, look, anytime you're going through this type of a process, having friends there to, you know, work out the logistics so that you don't have to deal with all of those other things, you know, it's helpful, and so i'm sure that mr. giuliani appreciates the help. >> do you have any update on bernie kerik's, you're not saying cooperation, but his cooperating stance. >> being cooperative. >> being cooperative with the special counsel. >> we are so cooperative. i had a nice chat with him

earlier today. >> have you turned over any more documents? >> no, no, we've turned over everything that we have that's not privileged, and yet to the extent that there's any issues of privilege that they work out with the campaign, we're happy to turn other, you know, any additional ones, but at this stage, they have the vast majority of everything. >> the conversation you had with them today, the friendly conversation, you just mentioned, can you tell us what it was about? >> it was just discussions of general logistics, and then an update on the privilege log. so, yeah, nothing too substantiative. you know, of course i mentioned to them, you know, fani willis is now trying to claim he's an unindicted coconspirator, so does that mean we should all plead the fifth and sop cooperating with jack smith? that i think is one of the unintended consequences of what fani willis has done here is by

naming so many defendants and so many unindicted coconspirators, she's going to convince a lot of people to start pleading the fifth and not being cooperative with the special counsel's office anymore. that's not something that bernie kerik is particularly concerned about because while we look through everything, there is nothing in there aside from her use of the word to indicate that he's actually an alleged coconspirator. >> what did they say when you threw that out there? >> you know, i don't want to get into too many specifics, but there was laughter. >> all right. 30 unindicted coconspirators that d.a. fani willis didn't name but listed certainly in the indictment, the large rico indictment against 19 defendant, including donald trump. tim parlatore, we appreciate you being here. see you son. donald trump is going to surrender, again, 7:30 tonight. do not go anywhere. surrender, again, 7:30 tonight

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mishandle classified documents or obstruction of justice, which by the way most of the candidates on stage said they would still do. back with us from atlanta is nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard and former chief communications adviser for house speaker paul ryan and an msnbc news political analyst, brendan buck. talking about the politics surrounding this, donald trump wasn't there. the candidates said they would still support him. what was donald trump saying at the same time to tucker carlson about what's going to be happening to him tonight? >> reporter: right. well, most folks were watching the gop debate with the candidates on stage, i was watching tucker carlson and donald trump in the 45 minutes conversation these two men had, and i can tell you that by minute number four tucker carlson was asking donald trump about jeffrey epstein and whether he thought epstein was in fact murdered and after about two minutes of questioning donald trump on jeffrey epstein's death, trump suggested

it was in fact suicide, which the government said it was. and he ended up correlating that, saying he was asking about jeffrey epstein, because he wondered whether they are going to try to kill you next. it was a twisted odd conversation between the two men. tucker carlson asked him twice whether he thought civil war was imminent, and he asked him about a potentially open conflict, including two specific questions about his own potential murder. i want to let you listen to one of those responses from donald trump, take a listen. >> so do you think it's possible that there's open conflict? >> i don't know because i don't know what, you know, i can say this, there's a level of passion that i've never seen. there's a level of hatred that i've never seen, and that's probably a bad combination. >> reporter: and katy, this is what donald trump said about january 6th, quote, people in that crowd said the day was the most beautiful that they had ever experienced. there was love and unity. i have never seen such spirit

and such passion, and much love. there was little actual substance discussed between the two men. donald trump did say his top priority was the border and deporting, in his words, hundreds of thousands of criminals out of the country. he also called the health of joe biden. these are two men who are very much on the same parallel track, one that they've used elon musk "x" formerly known as twitter to broadcast and post that video, which the trump campaign touted as having millions of views. but for donald trump it's a clear distinction for the rest of the republican field that is running against him. >> brenden, let's get into the analysis. a lot of candidates on stage kept saying they wanted to move on, voters want to move on, they don't want to talk about the last election. but donald trump is by far leading the republican pac right now, and that's all donald trump tacks about is the last election and how it was fraudulent. if you were willing on stage to say the election was not stolen,

that joe biden was the winner, that you can believe in democracy, how do you get anywhere as a republican candidate when donald trump has already filled the vacuum of the people who want to believe the conspiracy theory? >> yeah. last night here on the debate stage you have two primary goals. one of course is you introduce yourself and get people excited about you. that's job one. but job 1a has been to be drawing donald trump back into this campaign. donald trump was able to skip that debate last night and suffer really no consequences. i guess we'll see what happens in the polls. there was very little criticism and very little calling him out for not showing up. that's an obvious place you can go at it i think relatively safely. even trump supporters would like to see him on that stage calling them out for taking him for granted, not not seeing his obligation. and it completely gave a pass on this. i don't know his tucker carlson interview gave a pass for him, but he continues to show he's better at this than all of them.

at some point you have to realize you are way down and all of these folks are playing it safe. you can't play it safe when you're down 40 points in the poll. i have no reason to believe donald trump is to show up to the next debate. if he continues to keep evading these things and keep running away with it, we might as well all just throw in the towel. >> donald trump has left his home in bedminster and he's on his way to the airport where he'll then fly down to fulton county, georgia, but in talking about the election, brenden, how does it help any of those candidates on stage or anyone other than donald trump, and it's arguable it hasn't helped him because look at all the legal consequences he's potentially facing, to argue that you can't trust our elections. if you are running for office and you are running to win voters over, how can you say to voters that, hey, the election, you know, we really can't trust it? >> yeah, that's not a theoretical concern. we saw that in georgia there.

it's a state i'm from. immediately after the 2020 election he started questioning the validity of elections in georgia and we turned around and lost two senate seats there because he told people their vote didn't count. it's something republican leaders have been very concerned, his constant attacks on mail-in voting and early voting and things like this. it is completely self-defeating in the bigger picture for the republican party, but once again donald trump has never really cared a lot about the republican party. he cares about what's best for him in that moment. it's completely self-destructive, but nobody seems interested in stopping it, and there are plenty of people egging him on and supporting him. and i don't just mean people running against him and that's troubling enough, but you have people like jim jordan in congress who just announced they're going to be launching an inquiry into fani willis and what she's doing. there's so much groundwork that's been laid, it's really hard for anybody to turn this ship around, and he's clearly steering it. >> playing with fire.

brenden buck thank you very much and vaughn hilliard with reporting. and back with us msnbc analyst lisa ruben, laura jarrett, and legal analyst catherine christian. lisa, first to you. what's it like down there given that donald trump is coming? are you seeing protests? does it feel like the other scenes you've been to where donald trump has been booked and then arraigned even though he's not getting arraigned down there? >> reporter: it doesn't, katie, for one critical reason which is that the rice street jail where all the defendants are being booked is about 15 to 20 minutes away from the fulton county courthouse, and so what we're seeing here today is a lone protester here or there. we saw a gentleman with a sign saying lock him up who was basically begging for our attention. but i've seen more couples emerge from the courthouse with flowers demonstrating they were just married today than i've seen protesters here at the fulton county courthouse.

>> talk to me about trial dates. i know you've done some logging of everything that's been proposed. what can you tell us about scheduling? >> reporter: well, the october 23, 2023 filing date fani willis filed today could come up right against an existing trial in donald trump's schedule, and that's the civil fraud trial new york attorney general tish james expects to try october 22nd. when i reached her office today i was told they can't say precisely how long that trial will last, but it's generally expected to last 4 to 6 weeks. now, as laura and catherine know, donald trump doesn't have to be present at a civil trial. my experience watching the e. jean carroll trial, for example, tells us that. but look for donald trump to say that he expects to attend each and every day of tish james' civil fraud trial as one among many reasons why the fulton county case against him should

be delayed, katie. >> okay, let's talk about what might happen on monday. there's two things going on. one, the meadows evidentiary hearing and the other one is judge chutkan in the d.c. courts going to decide when to have the overturning the election trial date. i've got to keep them all straight in my head. first let's talk about meadows the evidentiary hearing. does he have a shot at winning this? >> i think the d.a. pointed out one of the big flaws, which is if his argument is he was acting in a federal capacity under the color of law, his federal office as former chief of staff making calls, doing all those things, one of the big problems is he may have violated the hatch act. so it's going to be a little bit hard for him, and for people at home that's just you can't get someone elected to federal office while also working as a federal employee. so the short story there is his argument is not frivolous, the

judge has said it's not frivolous which is why he's having the evidentiary hearing at all. i'm looking to see if he takes the stand that day. >> can he plead the fifth or refuse to get on stand? >> well, in order to express this argument, his lawyer can't make the argument. this happened to donald trump when he try today remove the manhattan case. he didn't testify, and the judge said i can't just take the word of your attorneys. so he won't testify, you know why? because the prosecutors will be able to cross examine him, and that would be very silly for him to testify. but that would be the only way. his lawyers can't make that argument. >> but i think it's interesting to see what brad raffensperger has to say. but to testify in a criminal proceeding about what exactly mark meadows is accused of doing here, what his role was, what his role was in the pressure campaign already sort of gives a little preview what his trial testimony would be. >> that's a good point. let's talk about judge chutkan

while we still have time. donald trump wants a trial april 2026. >> i think she's just sort of said i'm not even giving that any attention, i'll decide for myself. >> what about the arguments they make that's a whole lot of evidence to go through, a whole lot of discovery? >> which i agree january 2024 i think is too soon, but june of 2024 is not. april 2026 is ridiculous. >> remember he has a lot to do with when that trial is going to happen. she already made it crystal clear that the more he continues posting about this case, the more he continues making public statements that are arguably inflammatory, the more she's going to be inclined to move that trial date up. >> is there anything that he's done that is a giant red flag in the past few weeks? >> but what is the bar?

with donald trump it's hard to tell because the bar is much higher for him than it would be or lower depending on how you look at it than anybody else. i'm interested to see if she makes any statement judge chutkan on monday about his behavior. if you keep letting it slide, we're wringing our hands. he's just going to keep doing it with impunity. >> he's still talking to special counsel about bernie carrick and what they can hand over and can't hand over. he also told me there's so many unidentified coconspirator in d.a. fani willis' case it might make them hesitant to cooperate with the special counsel because he bernie carrick might be one of them. so you sort of have over your head will i be indicted, will i not be. what happens in the real world, the federal and the state, they operate on different plains, and

eventually they'll talk to each other, which happens. >> all right, well, i'm going to have to leave it there and run out of time. laura jarrett, catherine, thank you so much, and lisa ruben, i appreciate it. all right, that is going to do it for me today but do not worry because nicolle wallace takes things over in just a few seconds. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. there is a lot happening this hour. history unfolding. a flood of new developments to tell you about. just a few minutes ago donald trump, the disgraced ex-president, the front runner for the republican nominee for president, four times indicted departed his golf club in bedminster, new jersey. he's en route to fulton county, georgia, near newark airport we believe. he'll surrender himself for processing at an overcrowded jail with a reputation for violence and neglect. a jail