eventually they'll talk to each other, which happens. >> all right, well, i'm going to have to leave it there and run out of time. laura jarrett, catherine, thank you so much, and lisa ruben, i appreciate it. all right, that is going to do it for me today but do not worry because nicolle wallace takes things over in just a few seconds. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. there is a lot happening this hour. history unfolding. a flood of new developments to tell you about. just a few minutes ago donald trump, the disgraced ex-president, the front runner for the republican nominee for president, four times indicted departed his golf club in bedminster, new jersey. he's en route to fulton county, georgia, near newark airport we believe. he'll surrender himself for processing at an overcrowded jail with a reputation for violence and neglect. a jail accustomed to holding

defendants up to and including violent crimes where stabbings are frequent. actually three people have lost their lives over the last month. that jail is where the disgraced ex-president of these united states is heading right now. just let me get one, two, three, four times in four months that the ex-president of the united states will walk in and out of a jail house to begin the process of answering for his alleged crimes. this one is a little different for a few reasons including nis. we are very likely to see a mug shot of donald trump sometime today or tomorrow. mere hours ago he replaced the lawyer that previously led the defense in georgia. you can make up your own mind whether that's a good or bad defense for him. and what about the chief of staff. mark meadows surrendered himself to authorities in fulton county a short time ago. remember as meadows is still seeking to bump this trial up to

the federal level to take it out of district attorney fani willis' hands arguing that his alleged crimes were committed in his capacity as a federal official, now that fight is the first real battle we expect in this case. it is set to commence next week in what's shaping into an early almost mini trial of sorts. we found out today on that front that d.a. willis subpoenaed georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger as well as his chief investigator from the aftermath of the 2020 election. that's frances watson. if there's any people who can attest to the crimes committed in georgia it's raffensperger and watson. while meadows tries his west to change the trial where it takes place, another codefendant is taking a different approach. attorney kenneth chesebro filed a request for a speedy trial. as such the district attorney has responded and asked the court to set the trial date for

october 24th. donald trump's booking today is not an ending at all but nearly the beginning of a monumental chapter in our country's history. it is where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. msnbc legal analyst lisa ruben is outside the fulton county courthouse for us. also joining reporter for "the washington post" carroll lenning is here, former d.a. and coauthor of the brookings institution report, fulton county, georgia's trump investigation glen keith flemmings joins us. and former assistant director for counter intelligence at the fbi frank figliuzzi is here. lisa, why don't you take us through the latest goegz on behind you and over at the jail? >> reporter: well, you know, nicolle, at the courthouse itself it's been really quiet today. you wouldn't even know but for all the media presence that we were here because of donald trump or anything related to him. the action is really at the

fulton county jail, which is about 15 to 20 minutes from here, and that's where we've seen black suvs with tinted windows coming and going and taking people like mark meadows and harrison floyd who's involved in the scheme to intimidate the fulton county election worker ruby freeman here today. but here at the fulton county courthouse seeing it silent i think the fireworks here are still to come. >> what do we know about it feels like the interest of some of the 19 charged criminals starting to separate? you've got kenneth chesebro who wants a speedy trial and district attorney fani willis said you bet you. how's october 25th? you've got mark meadows arguing to move his court. what happens when their legal interests start to diverge? >> you know, what happens is kind of what we would call in

legal parlance a mess, right? that we have multiple forms involved, 19 defendants, and that's before we even get to the fact that there are multiple other cases pending against donald trump. one of those could intersect with the october 23rd trial date that fani willis proposed today in response to ken chesebro. new york attorney general tish james as you know has a civil fraud trial to the tune of $250 million outstanding against trump and some of his kids. that case goes to trial on october 2nd and is expect today last longer than october 23rd would allow. trump will certainly say that he has an interest in being present there. even though it's a civil trial and he doesn't have to be, he will likely use that as an excuse in telling judge scott mcafae that a trial on october 23rd wouldn't happen if the case does indeed stay in state court. >> gwen, let me bring you in on this.

we are watching district attorney fani s through her filings, through her efforts and the picture is consistent with the one you've painted for us over the last many months direct, responsive, and pretty steely. i don't think i'm playing too much into what i'm seeing. her response to chesebro was quick, it was decisive. i believe it was october 23rd. i misspoke when i said october 25th. let me ask you what are the chances that anyone goes on trial on october 23rd? is there ever a case where some people are separated out from the criminal enterprise? >> well, that's always possible, but i think it's important to note that d.a. willis was acting in response to response what georgia law says. anytime a defendant files a motion for speedy trial he or she must be tried either within the term the motion is file or

within the succeeding term, the next term. this term ends at the end of august. that means mr. chesebro or any of the defendants must be tried by the end of september. issue must be joined by the end of october, excuse me. so any d.a. upon getting a speedy trial demand, their responsibility, their inclination is to immediately put it on a reasonable calender that allows for discovery and everything else. so while 60 days or less than 60 days may seem unreasonable, that is what's required by georgia law, and a prosecutor is not going to risk losing their case by failing to honor what's in the statute. >> let me ask you one more legal question about today's developments, and then i've got to bring carol and frank in i think on on a normal day would be a blaring headline or mug shot for the former chief of staff.

but i need to ask you about what is shaping up on monday. that will be mark meadows opportunity to make an argument that this case belongs in federal court. d.a. fani willis has called brad raffensperger and his former top investigater for the 2020 fraud claims as witnesses. what are we -- what should we be watching for in that proceeding? and how do you think it'll go? >> so we should be watching that it's going to be an evidentiary proceeding. it's not just the lawyers arguing. i think the interesting thing to watch for is what evidence mr. meadows and his team and possibly others if the matters or motions are joined are going to offer because they actually must sustain the burden or they have the burden of demonstrating that the case should be removed to federal court. so it's really going to come down to witness credibility, and i think based on that judge

jones or at least i can imagine the d.a. is going to argue very vigorously that the action she outlined in the indictment are outside the scope of the federal duties of mr. meadows and some of the other defendants that are trying to remove. and i think she's going to say that or has said that based on the hatch act violations. federal officials are not allowed to get involved in any sort of election activity or use their federal role to support a candidate. in addition we've said repeatedly that elections are squarely within the state purview. the president, his chief of staff, and others do not have a role in elections. and the extent to which they were doing things that interfered or allegedly interfered with those elections, i'm pretty confident the d.a. will make a strong argument that these defendants were operating outside of their federal role. >> i think that is very, very, very safe and legitimate bet.

we'll be watching that. lisa, i understand even since we've been on the air we had some breaking news about this breaking topic of an october 23rd trial for attorney kenneth chesebro. what are you learning? >> reporter: we're learning that judge scott mcafee who is new to the bench and his relatively young lawyer has already taken his first act in this case, ordering ken chesebro will get the october 23rd speedy trial he has demanded. in the case management order, it's a 1-page order that judge mcafae has set down today, he's also making it clear it only applies to ken chesebro. so he's effectively gotten the trial date he wanted but has served his case at least right now from all the 18 other codefendants that stand with him in this indictment. >> gwen, is this now the final word? is this now for d.a. willis to go ahead and try mr. chesebro on

october 23rd? >> i think she obviously would be preparing for trial. she wouldn't have submitted the notice, her response if that was not the case. i think, though, there may be follow-up motions to the extent to which she and her team would have concerns about trying only one defendant when they were part of a larger web of 19. we'll see what types of motions or response she files in terms of trying to get everybody tried within that time frame. obviously that may not square with other defendants' rights or desired due process to review the evidence. but to lisa's point earlier this is where things are going to get interesting particularly if we do not have a ruling from federal court on the removal issue. for those defendants as well as many of the others. >> you know, carroll len

leoning, the early months of covid and seeing all the streets around the world empty i think of the days and weeks and months after 9/11. i think of any sort of international natural disaster or tragedy, but this is one of those stories where you see the words donald trump will take a mug shot today and may or may not be weighed, that it just has this surreal feeling. and i don't want to gloss over how completely abnormal it is and how completely inevitable it was that this day would come. what are your thoughts? >> you know, i think you've got a good, important point to make sheer, nicolle, about all of us taking a breath and thinking about the history that's made. sometimes that can be breathtaking because i remember in the spring of this year when we were all watching alvin bragg bring his charges against the

former president and it was a stunner to see the 45th president enter a manhattan courthouse to be processed for arrest and to be charged formally. i think, you know, we've hit a couple of indictments since then, and it is important the whole idea of a mug shot kind of bring someone down in a dramatic way, and i don't doubt that is small part of why mark meadows, the former chief of staff and his attorneys were fighting so hard to separate this and bring it back to federal court before the mug shot. the former president being presented in this same light is -- is really demeaning to the office and painful for probably all of us in the country whether it's somebody who's a ardent trump supporter or someone who is an ardent trump critic.

it is devastating for the country to have this happen. but i'll say one thing back to your idea of steely, if i can, the steeliness of fani willis. she's a county district attorney working in a state system, and what she essentially concluded after reading a story in "the washington post" in january of 2021 describing and detailing an audiotaped call between the president and brad raffensperger in which the president asked the then georgia secretary of state to find him 11,000 plus votes, which he concluded then, okay, you're messing with georgia state elections, it's likely a crime if this is true. the federal government had the same option. it is a federal crime to interfere in an election. but fani willis plunged forward and this is where she is. the steeliness reminds me when i

covered the u.s. attorney's office in d.c., i met many, many maligned attorney whose basic credo was, look, bring in your defendant on friday for a plea talk or we're going to charge you and indict you on monday. let us know how you feel. she decided, okay, you don't want to play, i'm going to charge all 19 of you. i would think the steeliness could pay off for fani willis in that a couple of people are already telegraphing that they're not ready to kind of go down with the ship. that's the vibe you pick up from a few people, and so her steeliness may lead to quite a few people essentially being picked off, which was the mode of the u.s. attorneys office in d.c. when they said come on in friday or else. >> is that what you think is happening with someone like chesebro wanting to get his -- not wanting his life to be on pause indefinitely? or do you see something that we don't see just yet?

>> i can't speculate or tell. you know, there could be a lot of things going on here. there's one element of chesebro's demand for a speedy trial that could be helpful to the other defendants in that they would essentially get a preview of the case, if that is how this happens, if this is how it goes down. it would also be pretty challenging as gwen points out to describe a broad conspiracy with basically a relatively small bit player when you think about the overarching effort that fani willis alleges in her 100-plus overt acts. >> you know, fred, i want to pick up on something carol said about what is devastating about today. i don't disagree, but i think what is devastating about the mug shot isn't the image, it's the acts. and it's so many acts that led to this one mug shot. it's the six acts of alleged

criminal obstruction of justice in volume 2 of the mueller case. it's being named individual 1 and unindicted coconspearper but a coconspirator all the same and in a legal campaign finance scheme that sent michael cohen to jail. it is the brazen abuse of power that led to him withholding military aid approved by congress from president zelenskyy at war with russia, and then it is finally his brazen efforts to cling to power using extra judicial and unconstitutional methods. it is, again, shocking and devastating but so completely overdue and inevitable. >> yeah, these mug shots that many people are talking about are far more than just someone's image. they are, in fact, a snapshot in history. this is history in the making. and that rice street jail you spoke of fulton county with all

its issues is where corruption collides with consequences. and that's what we're seeing with these mug shots. it is a slap in the face of anybody of this kind of stach yr to come in and get processed in that facility, and america needs to see that. the world needs to see this in a historical perspective. it's not only history for the nation writ large, it's history for law enforcement. i have to think back to the late '60s and early '70s where law enforcement particularly the fbi but also police departments and major cities struggle to figure it out. what am i talking about? i'm talking about a period of time with a violent anti-vietnam protest, sometimes terror groups blowing up police stations. the liberation army kid naps -- people start hijacking planes to cuba and americans are sitting there going what is going on domestically? there's a similar risk and threat here that law enforcement is trying to get their arms

around and do it in a hurry because while we're focused on this one event thus evening, understandably, this is sustained high security posture that has to be taken for the foreseeable future, trials that could go on months if not years in appeals in fighting that lone actor or that organization in its infancy that's going to do something bad. it harkens back to late '60s, early '70s for law enforcement. >> but to stick with the historical parallel, you've got the leader of this movement fanning the flames of just what you're describing, not saying don't do that in my name but welcoming it seemingly. >> yeah, '60s, '70s was a ground up peoples movement. this is being driven by stochastic terrorism, where a leadership figure paints the -- some party or some person or entity as subhuman, demeans them to the point where people feel very uncomfortable hurting them,

violent acting out against a group now that's been painted as something less than human. that's what we're watching happen. >> carol, i want to give you the last word, and i want to come back to your extraordinary body of reporting and some it in the books you wrote with phil rucker really relying on the expertise and first-hand interactions of the old hands in the national security world and what they saw of trump in that friction of seeing someone for what he was. someone in the tank of briefing what you described in your books is ignorant and uninterested in becoming more knowledgeable, someone pigheaded, and i think that's putting it in tv friendly generous terms, and someone who, you know, john bolten and others believe is corrupt while they're working in the white house. what are you hearing if you're hearing from any of them, or what would you surmise what their thoughts are to see this catch up with them in a criminal

context? >> i don't think -- i'm thinking of a few people, and i cannot, of course, mash them all together as having the same view, but i'm thinking of a few people who are really quite i don't know revolted by donald trump's behavior as they served him in the last several years, forgive me, the last basically two years of his presidency, and i think that they will not -- they would not relish this moment, but i know from more recent conversations that they feel very strongly that consequences, as frank mentioned, have been long incoming for the former president. and that your description, for example, of the four acts of obstruction in which robert mueller had extensive evidence enough of a normal person to bring a grand jury indictment, but that was a moment sort of lost by not explaining to the

public how much the public -- how much evidence investigators had that he was engaged in criminal obstruction, there are people that, again, i'm thinking of now who are glad to see not relishing, not smacking their lips but glad to see there are in their view consequences for actions finally. >> yeah, i talked to a couple, and i don't have the depth or breadth of relationships you do, carol, but it's exactly as you describe, not a gleeful feeling but a real worry he's still the front-runner to one of these two existing parties and this real belief that the country couldn't handle another round of this. carol leonnig, thank you so much for being part of our coverage on this historic day. everyone else sticks around a little bit longer. when we come black we'll have more reporting what comes next in fani willis' sprawling rico case against the ex-president and his allies. plus nearly every republican candidate on the stage last night for the first debate of

the republican primary said they would support the four times indicted ex-president if he was convicted in any of those cases. it is a moment that speaks volumes not just about the state of the republican party but the state of the rule of law in america. we'll talk about it. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. aphing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ i'm barbara and i'm from st. joseph, michigan. i'm a retired school librarian. i'm also a library board trustee, a mother of two, and a grandmother of two. basically, i thought that my memory wasn't as good as it had been.

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we are back with lisa, dwen, and frank. dwen, let me ask you. would d.a. fani willis just be carrying out business and going through paperwork and working on filings or would she be watching the tv do you think when trump

lands there and makes his way to the jail? >> i think with a hearing on monday, an order in federal court and an order today that her trial is going to start within the next 8 or 2 or little over two months, she's not watching the tv. she's strategizing with her team and ensuring witnesses are together and in an order as i said earlier might be working on a counter argument possibly to present to a judge so that she could present her whole rico case. there might also be pretrial motions that she might be filing to be sure to be able to do that even if she has to be able to go to trial on only one defendant in october. so that's a long way of saying i doubt very much she's watching tv. she's got a full plate, and she's going to be focused on all the different aspects of this case as well as the other tens of thousands of cases that her

office handles. >> lisa, i don't know fani willis but that would be my guess as well. let me ask you, lisa, to pick up on something carol leonnig, when carol leonnig describes a vibe it usually precedes some blockbuster reporting she and her colleagues are working on. let me ask you -- let me just pull this thread a little bit. is there a scenario where the legal interests diverging in terms of timing leads to a divergence more profound than timing? >> yeah, i think that's absolutely right. and we're starting to see that already. and carol didn't name names, but, for example, jenna ellis who was one of the president's former lawyers, has taken to twitter and other places very publicly this week to complain. they even have hur gts complaining on her behalf that her legal fees have not been paid. she raised at last count by me over $94,000 on a christian equivalent of a gofundme site,

but that's hardhy going to be enough to sustain a full defense and a trial here. so i do think that for monetary reasons, for reputational reasons, and otherwise there are a number of people who either are going to want to go to trial quick leor going to entertain notions of pleading out here particularly if they don't think they have exposure in the federal case. >> frank, i hate to even sort of put this out there, but it's important to understand what the right is doing as a criminal enterprise charging 19 republicans with alleged crimes that were attested to by witnesses who are predominantly trump supporting republicans, that district attorney is coming under fire from republicans like jim jordan. let me read you this from axios. the republican led house judiciary committee opened an investigation into fulton county district attorney fani willis thursday over whether her prosecution of former president trump is politically motivated. in a letter to willis announcing

the probe judiciary committee chair jim jordan asked willis to turn over a series of documents to the committee. quote, your indictment and prosecution implicates substantial federal interests, and the circumstances surrounding your actions raise serious concerns about whether they are politically motivated. let me just play again what she had to work with in the public purview. here's trump on the phone trying to shakedown raffensperger's top investigator. >> you have the most important job in the country right now because if we win georgia -- first of all, if you win you're going have to -- they're not going to win because the people of georgia are so angry what happened to me. they know i won. i won by hundreds of thousands of votes. it wasn't close. when the right answer comes out, you'll be praised. i mean i don't know why they made it so hard. people will say great because

that's what it's about the ability to check and to make it right because everyone knows it's wrong. whatever you could do it's a great thing, it's an important thing for the country and i very much appreciate it. >> so maybe fani willis can turn that over to jim jordan. >> so while it is be easy to dismiss whatever jim jordan does as theatrics, stuff he has to do to appease trump and the right-wing base, that's dangerous to write it off because what it does is continues to stoke the anger and the flames that there's vast left wing conspiracy to take out republican leadership and that they're coming for all republicans -- >> to your point to even investigate what was politically motivated is based on the facts and this is trump calling republicans being so brazen because he thinks they're all on his team.

your point is by even questioning a political motive they're achieving a name of sowing doubt? >> no question. jim jordan is struggling to find some federal nexus to a county district attorney. there really isn't any. he's found -- to his credit what he's painting his hat on right now seems to be, hey, did you have a conversation with the special counsel or anybody in the federal government? okay, that's interesting. it's the middle of a pending criminal investigation. she's going to tell him politely or not so politely. >> yeah, it's fascinating. lisa ruben and gwen keys, thanks for sticking around with us. coming up a lasting moment at last night's debate that illustrates the republican party remains completely enamored with their autocrat

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. famously a former political leader who tried to absolve a coup plotter of charges for plotting the coup was former venezuelan president rafael cudara who famously in 1994 dropped charges against hugo chavez for trying a coup and chavez walked right of jail and right into a presidency and dismantled the longest serving south american democracy. >> oh, that.

that was lawyer and democracy advocate ian bassin on this program yesterday on how it happens how unabashed support for an arrested and imprisoned criminal, ex-leader who attempted a military coup ends. we witnessed the republican party clinging brazenly, publicly to the disgraced ex-president even as he stands drly accused of 91 criminal counts across four cases including for trying to overturn his last defeat. here's a telling moment from last night's debate, the day before trump's expected surrender and mug shot at the fulton county jail. >> you all signed a pledge to support the eventual republican nominee. if former president trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? please raise your hand if you would.

>> speaking of moments in history that was one. let's bring into our conversation award winning author and professor of african american studies at princeton university, our fred eddie glaude is here. frank is still with us. eddie, we this conversation yesterday, and i will confess while watching the republican debate it was hard to keep my brain in this frame, but all that really matters in the republican contest is how far away from democratic ideals they move us, and that would answer -- and i should point out that asa hutchinson did not raise his hand when asked that question, but everyone else did. now, this is the biggest f-u to the rule of law i can imagine. i don't know how he explains that to his sort of coalition if that's how he's talking about his support, but this is saying that if a jury of donald trump's

peers finds him guilty they'll all vote for him to be america's next president. that's everything you need to know. >> absolutely. to me it's disqualifying. chris christie said he raised his hand in order to reject the question, and then he wagged his finger saying, no. but for the rest of them, the rest of them, nicolle, think about nikki haley, her hand shot up as quickly as ramaswamy's. for me it's a combination of things. it's not only there being beholden to donald trump but actually the sound of the audience, they're beholden to that -- that loud scream of satisfaction that they would do it. and then the second point i would make is that it also shows that their identity as republicans trumps their commitment to the country. that's dangerous to a two party

system. that they're more committed to being republican than being americans and democratic and committed to democracy as such. i found myself reaching for my whiskey at that point. >> i had to go on live tv or i would have done the same thing. i want to pick at a scab with you because i also -- they weren't smart enough to have a consistent position on crime, right? and mean the cities are crime ridden and disgusting in all they're telling and immigrants are the big threat. but a criminally indicted ex-president, no problemo, hand shoots straight up. i mean, it is braidsen in one its stupidity, in, two, its inconsistency. >> you know i mean we cannot kind of hold the party and these folks to any kind of measure of consistency. they're clear they can be hypocrites and they don't care about it. there's one set of rules for them and another set of rules for us, whether it's crime --

and they have us thinking we're in the 1970s or something with american cities and not talking about reverse migration, people moving back into the metro pole, that's not the issue. and the same time they're speaking about crime in this way, they're castigating the justice department, they're demonizing the fbi and they're letting donald trump off the hook. but these are the same people that don't care about children once they get here but they're supposed to be the pro-life party. hypocrisy is in some ways their starlight letter, but they don't give a damn. and that was clear last night as well. >> and let me get you on the history laid out by our guest ian bassin. but you have to embrace not just hypocrisy but amnesia. you have to assume these individuals men and women are familiar with the history of appeasement or the history of autocracy or the history of how democracies die. >> right. i've been rereading "the origins

of totalitarianism" and so many origins we see there's so much -- there's this moment in george orwell's 1984, nicolle, he describes it as memory holes. all the things that are incinerated, that don't seem to fit with the party line, they just throw into the memory holes, right and this allows for the kind of society orwell describes. these folks are so complicit in some ways eroding the very foundations of our democracy. and they're doing it in really insidious ways, and last night it was on full display. and so for me not as a democrat or anybody -- a progressive but just someone who's committed to the ideal of democracy, it was just disqualifying -- two hours

of disqualifying nonsense. >> i want to pick up on this with you, frank. i mean there are sort of internationally recognized steps toward moving away from a democracy. it is attacking a free press. there were attacks from vivek about corporate media, then he attacked all his republican opponents. there's never a condemnation of trump's attacks on judges or prosecutors. there is an attack on the fbi. there's a refusal to condemn and therefore a silent complicit of this cultural violence. they are as a group clearly comfortable with an anti-democratic label. >> and it becomes far more of just walking from democratic principles but walking towards authoritarianism and even some signs of fascism in some of their commentary. so when you see people saying we

don't need to support democracy and a free people around the world, some weird concepts of what law enforcement is supposed to do or not to do. vivek earlier just prior to the debate was on audio saying he felt there should be a reinvestigation of 9/11 because maybe federal agents did it. what? and so what's happening with this move towards authoritarianism is only we can be trusted is what they seem to be saying. don't trust any of the institutions you've relied upon that's gotten us this far. they're all bad. the only people you can trust, the only people who can solve it are us. and what that takes is everybody placing all their trust, all their votes in that basket of authoritarianism, and it is seriously eroding our institutions and really our values for a democratic republic. >> i have to sneak in a break. there is some good news. i mean the good news is it's all

a giant loser. i mean the people who ran in the mid-terms on this agenda lost. i mean there's no governor doug mastriano. there's no governor kari lake. they ran on this. they took these messages to battleground voters and the battleground voters said nyet. so we have to sneak in a quick break. o sneak in a quick break. [ applause ] >> the day you get your clearchoice dental implants makes every day a confident day... a never-hide-my-smile day... a life-of-the-party day... a take-on-the-world day... a believe-in-myself day...

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♪inspiring music♪ ♪ start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. mike pence stood for the constitution, and he deserves not grudging credit. he deserves our thanks as

americans for putting his oath of office and the constitution of the united states before personal political and unfair pressure. and the argument that we need to have in this party before we can move onto the issues that ron talked about is we have to dispense with the person who said that we need to suspend the constitution to put forward his political career. mike pence said no, and he deserves credit for it. >> that was christie's finest moment that pence couldn't defend himself on simply upholding the constitution on the day, but however it came out i was glad it was articulated. it's amazing that an outlier

position though in the republican primary. >> yeah, here we are. what a sorry state we're in where we have to see the candidates as either pro-constitution or not. >> correct. >> and the guy who actually defended the constitution on january 6th isn't the one who feels comfortable bringing it up and reminding people of it. >> you can even wrap this up. >> interestingly, the pro constitution comment gets good applause from the audience, but then when he shifts to, we have to dispense with the guy who was not for the constitution, he gets booed. >> that's where we are. what do we do about that? >> well, i'm trying to figure it out. we have to fight vigorously for our democracy. it's fascinating. i can disagree with chris christie, because we both agree with the background, we both concede to the background grievance that allowed us to disagree. i can disagree with liz cheney

because we agree to the conditions that allow us to disagree. with donald trump and these folk who are signing up with him, they actually erode the background conditions for their to be substantive debate about where we move forward. when i look at chris christie, when i look at liz cheney, when i look atnikki haley, i see policies, i get worried, but i can disagree without worrying the democracy will fall apart. some of these people have gone so far that they are, as frank said, they are decidedly anti-constitutional in the way they argue their position. it's deeply worrisome. >> that's brilliant. i'm going to steal this. i have been grappling -- knowing last night was coming -- with this frame and that's why we are ian on and had the democracy conversation. you want to reach across the set and arm wrestle over dumb policy ideas with the person in the other party. but you can't even muster the

enthusiasm to defend an idea when the other side wants to burn it all down. that's sort of the despair and pull of watching these individuals on the stage. you couldn't imagine a policy fight with a couple of them. i guess asa hutchinson and chris christie and make nikki haley for a few moments and pence. the rest, playing to the room, which i didn't want to tell them, because it's not in the interest if you are not rooting for a republican to win, they do not represent a general election voter. what they cheer at should be what they run from. they are in such a box that the things that make that room cheer disqualify them from being elected. >> yeah. the interesting thing is we might be able to generalize that to the republican party as such. that's the worry that the republican party has become just what you have described.

how does the democracy function when you don't have two viable parties, at least one party engaging in bad faith constantly? i don't know how you engage in the deliberation requisite for us to move forward if these are the sorts of people and these are the sorts of positions that they put forward. >> it's important to note that those people are above the polls from the others. frank figliuzzi, thank you for being on set today. it's wonderful to see you in person. eddie sticks around a little longer. a quick break for us. we will be right back. will be .

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we are monitoring the movements of the ex-president. he is aboard his plane. he will surrender at the county jail which will be shut down ahead of his arrival. he will be the 12th of 19 defendants to have been booked. the rest have until noon tomorrow to turn themselves in or face arrest warrants from district attorney willis. the ex-president raises the specter of political violence. we will tell you about it after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't gony awhere. (christina) with verizon business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition.

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the president, you know, got everybody riled up, told everybody to head on down. so we were following what he said. >> after the president's speech as you are marching down to the capitol, how did you feel? >> i'm angry, you know, after everything that was basically said in the speech. a lot of the stuff he said, he already put out in tweets. i have seen it and heard it before. i was already worked up. so were most of the people there. >> hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. if we know one thing about trump and his supporters, it's that they listen to him. for better or worse, they believe him. they believe the claims he makes. they feel his grievances. they act on his words and grievances. this is why the comments he made last night in an interview that he taped instead of

participating in the debate is so dangerous. he is suggesting there could be more political violence to come. trump responded saying, i don't want that, but by saying this, quote, there's a level of passion i have never seen, there's a level of hatred i have never seen. that's probably a bad combination. while he is not wrong on the merits, that that's a bad combination, those things together can have potentially dangerous consequences, he misses the point. or does he? he is the one who fanned the passion and hatred in the first place. >> because you will never take back our country with weakness. you have to show strength. you have to be strong. it was a rigged election. it was a stolen, disgusting election. this country should be ashamed. they go after the people that

want to prove that it was rigged and stolen. because in the end, they are not after me. they are after you. and i just happen to be standing in the way. >> of course, all of you watching know none of that is true. here is where it affects all of us. instead of stoking his supporters with lies like that and saying last night to tucker that more violence is possible, he has the power still to this day, to this moment when he walked into the jail tonight, to stop it, to discourage it, put an end to it. don't believe me. good lord. here is more from someone who actually listened to trump on january 6. >> what made you decide to leave? >> basically, when president trump put his tweet out. we literally left right after that come out. >> command and control. now as we prepare to see the ex-president surrender himself

to authority in atlanta, the biggest question is, what will happen next? tonight, tomorrow, the coming weeks. we will see people -- will we see his supporters go to violence? that question is where we begin today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. pete struck is back and chief of staff, author of the book "blowback, a warning to save democracy from the next trump" miles taylor, back with us, eddie glaude and vaughn hillyard. he is outside the jail where all of the action is happening this week. i guess it's countdown two hours and 30 minutes until trump's arrival. >> reporter: right. we are looking at him departing from newark. it's about a two hour and 20

minute flight to atlanta. that's when we expect him to make the 15-minute drive here to the fulton county jail where a number of his co-defendants, including mark meadows two hours ago, have gone through the booking process. this is where we anticipate him driving in his motorcade. the sheriff's office intends to go through fingerprinting and do a mugshot for donald trump. we have not been told otherwise. it's notable last night, after rudy giuliani left the jail here, a man came walking down the street, up to me, and he says, i saw rudy giuliani in there. he told the folks inside hello. for donald trump, this is a real process. there are folks here that are being processed hourly. for donald trump, we expect the jail to be shut down. a security perimeter to be established here. typically, it's open 24 hours. it's indicated it will be shut

down for the former president to come in. of course, the difficulty for donald trump is it's looking like at least one of his defendants is going to have a trial date start of october 23rd. for donald trump, the attorneys suggest they want no part of a quick trial. donald trump doesn't want it to start for 2024, especially if you take into account today, they brought on a new lawyer and ousted the other lawyer who had been representing him for the last year. the former lawyer was somebody who represented the likes of cardi b. in the past. this lawyer represented usher. from one lawyer to another, this lawyer is going to have a fresh start in trying to defend the former president in what could be a speedy process if the judge were to require him to go before a trial on october 23rd or as soon as this spring. >> where is ari when you need him? i know you have to go.

one more question. trump's truth social seemed to send out a picture of trump's gleefulness with this bizarre punctuation. everything he has done in full view of the public has to avoid this moment. his rage at jeff sessions over recusing from the russia investigation, his enters to fire robert mueller, his efforts to hide, shield and obstruct justice are about avoiding accountability. what is your sense from covering him about what's going on with him? >> reporter: now that it's imminent, he is embracing it. his own campaign has sent out mock mugshots. he hasn't had one to date in the three previous cases here. for them, this is about embracing this moment. yesterday in that conversation with tucker carlson, tucker asked him two times about the prospect of himself being killed. he asked him about a civil war. he asked him about potentially

open conflict. these are a fanning of the flames of violence that his own supporters have suggested to me is imminent. there's one i was talking to in iowa, an older woman. she herself, without me bringing up the idea of violence or a civil, whether i asked her where she sees this going, she told me specifically, quote, i'm afraid and concerned if we keep going the way we are, no matter who the president is, if we keep going, we're going to have another civil war. i asked what, what does it look like? she goes, i'm not sure, but it's going to be a lot of fighting. i think there will be death on both sides. she's suggesting that there could be a lot of deaths. in that conversation that donald trump had with tucker last night, he did absolutely nothing to quell any talk of violence or the possibility of an open infighting in the streets of america. >> vaughn, i know you have more reporting to do. we will get you back later.

we will stay on this. this is where trump's utterances impact all of us. thank you so much for your reporting today. miles, i'm coming to you. i always like to sort of pull back the curtain and explain why i'm covering this, why this matters. when trump talks about political violence, he names names. he names targets. he has warned by two jurisdictions that the judge in d.c. and i think willis or the judge there has warned him against his tactics, his intimidation, witness tampering and his mo, if you will. we saw in this interview with tucker -- i will confess i didn't watch the whole thing. i was watching the republican debate. i saw the clips that vaughn is talking about where he raises the specter of violence. he doesn't tamp it down. he doesn't say he doesn't want it. we already know his people are all too willing to act on that.

>> this is not normal. this is not normal. it's not loaded gun rhetoric. it's actual loaded guns that we need to be worried about. what's dangerous with this whole situation isn't that we have an ex-president who is being booked on criminal charges. it's that people in the republican party don't see him as the mad man that he is. they see him as a martyr now. they are trying to rally around him as a martyr. his colleagues in the gop don't condemn him. they are sticking with him. his supporters are standing behind him. his most hard core loyalists are basically telling reporters that they would die for him. his opponents that should be trying to replace him in the party are trying to be him. you saw ramaswamy last night essentially try to posture

himself as the next trump, as the guy who would go further than donald trump. all of these things are the opposite of what you would want to see from a law enforcement perspective about tamping down the rhetoric and avoiding violence. instead, all of these things lend themselves to a more volatile and combustible situation. we are about to find out in the next couple of weeks what law enforcement in this country actually thinks about it. usually in september, we have the heads of the intelligence agencies and the fbi come up and testify before congress. i predict they will come up and say that the political violence factors and trajectory there this country is worse than it was before and they are worried about 2024. i think you will hear from from the fbi as well as the department of homeland security, probably around the beginning of september. >> pete, on that point precisely, here is the last dls

national terrorism advisory bulletin issued in may. that was after -- i don't need this picture. take this down. this is trump's plane leaving. this is the bulletin. the united states remains in a heightened threat environment. lone offenders and small groups motivated by ideological beliefs pose a lethal threat to the co perception of the 2024 general election cycle and legislative or judicial decisions pertaining to issues. to say all those dynamics are on steroids now would be an understatement. i wonder if you share miles' prediction about the threat environment in the fall. >> absolutely i do. the fact of the matter -- to see whether the fbi or dhs will say this isn't just some broad group of people who fall under just general grievance about their

perception of the election. this is linked to one party. this is linked to donald trump. this is not something you are seeing coming out of fringe democrats. this is not something you see coming out of independents. this is linked to one man. this is linked to one party. the sooner that we say that and to get to the point whereas a government we acknowledge the fact what miles was saying that stop saying and enabling this. stop labeling it in general terms. there is linked to donald trump. when we approach the trials -- that's the time where i see an uptick in violence. i don't expect it coming from hundreds of thousands of people. it just takes one or five or ten. they are all listening to donald trump. they are listening to him not say be peaceful. he is not saying, whatever you feel, adhere to the law. he is giving this nebulous, well, it's a dangerous combination. that's not enough. it needs to be called out more than it is right now.

>> let me play for you a mash of trump's provoking violence. it's cumulative with trump. his supports have heard it for so long that what he said last night, i think, some people are numb to it. it's sort of the moment meeting his criminal exposure meeting the precedent of january 6. let me play this for you, eddie. >> when you see these thugs in, thrown in rough, i said, please don't be too nice. you had people that were very fine people, on both sides. any guy that can do a body slam, he is my kind. if a city or state refuses to take actions necessary to defend the life and property of their residents, then i will deploy the united states military and quickly solve the problem for them.

proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> the problem isn't that -- i wish i could grow numb to this. the problem is the right has grown numb for this. they all said they would vote for him if he is convicted. let me just drill down. he is celebrating police brutality. the second one, celebrating the kkk. they take the life of heather hoyer. they kill somebody. he is talking about something that is unconstitutional, deploying the military and then, of course, the infamous call for the proud boys to stand back and stand by. something that took 5 1/2 weeks for them to act on when they showed up in washington, d.c. in large numbers on january 6. it has happened. it is happening. he is calling for it to happen again. >> we have people who have been -- who are dead as a result of it all. we need it to be clear about

that. it's not abstract. peter is right, we need to name it. this is not some general kind of tendency. this is a particular party with a particular man. the more desperate donald trump gets, the more dangerous he will become. i think we need to understand that. look, there's always been this undercurrent in american history. it's easy for people who are unsettled about their lives to demonize that they call the n word. it's easy for them to demonize those who they think are christ killers. the people who they believe are abominations. they are more afraid of socialism than fascism. the violence of the mob can make them feel secure in who they are. it doesn't have to be some grand act or grand spectacle. the spectacle we are going to see tonight was orchestrated by donald trump. it gets on my nerves.

the idea -- the idea that it's all laying the foundation to unleash the hatred we know that's in the country. so we gotta begin to tag the party with it and begin to ask hard questions as we prepare ourselves for what i think is inevitable. as he becomes more desperate, he will become more dangerous. >> miles, i think that's my -- i have michael steele's admonition about not covering him like a bronco chase. vaughn hillyard reporting from he says he is embracing it. this is what the campaign is about. in my brain when i say i don't want to look at that picture -- what in your view, having worked for him, what does trump want? >> well, trump wants exactly what he is getting right now. again, it's so astounding to me that his own opponents that should be taking advantage of this moment to paint him as unqualified, which some are

doing like chris christie, but by and large the rest of donald trump's opponents who should be condemning are boot licking and blowing kisses at him. some of these -- i mentioned the last time i was on your show, some are gop officials who in 2016 said, donald trump was dangerous because he would incite violence. now they enable him as he incites violence. they make excuses for him. they beg people to sand by the notion that he should be pardoned and forgiven ahead of even being convicted. there was one person on the debate stage last night -- it was mike pence who essentially said, we need to wait and see what happens and see if a convicted person shows contrition. that's what happens in the pardon process, not that i have high confidence that mike pence would do the right thing. i never saw him do the right thing around donald trump. that's what's so devastating

here is not just the silence, the open support and love for this guy who is being booked on 91 felony counts. that's pretty scary for this country. that's the real weaponization of justice is saying that we need to go after the justice system for actually holding criminals accountable. i think that's created a discourse there this country that goes beyond donald trump. even if he is ruled inviable for the presidency, even if he loses the primaries, i think we are dealing with a bigger generational threat. again, because i saw so many people on the debate stage last night posturing to be the next trump. that's what really alarms me is they are not moving on. they are leaning into his movement. >> these are people who supported efforts to bring democracy to countries far, far away. they will not lift a single finger to protect democracy here. these are hypocrites with a capital h. no one is going anywhere. i need you to stick around. we will continue this

conversation. we will continue to cover the breaking news this hour. i want to show you what trump looks like when he turns on his own party, his own campaign supporters. don't go anywhere. ere. with the irresistible scent. ♪ ♪ huh, huh, so did their dog roger. ♪ ♪ gain scent beads keep even the stinkiest stuff smelling fresh. frustrated by skin tags? dr. scholl's has the breakthrough you've been waiting for.

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we are back with pete, miles and eddie. let me play for you how trump supporters were treated by trump in terms of threats of violence that they face. >> we have various groups come by and they have had video --

panel trucks with videos of me proclaiming me to be a pedophile and a corruption politician. >> after the election, i was getting texts and my wife started getting a text. hers came in as sexualized which were disgusting. >> around the week of january 6, the fbi informed me i needed to leave my home for safety. it was horrible. i felt homeless. i felt, you know -- i can't believe -- i can't believe there person has caused this much damage to me and my family. >> pete, this is what is so bonkers. in the case of rust bowers and brad raffensperger, this was the report to help him achieve

re-election, except overturn the results of the elections. if you are ruby, this is the place you pay for doing a thankless public service. how does he continue to recruit disciples when that's how he treats people? >> nicole, it's a great question. it's one of the primary things that motivated people to stay loyal, because if they speak out, they will face the same mob that of the clips you showed. the fact of the matter is, this sort of behavior isn't a hypothetical. it has gone on. it's continuing to go on. when you look at the names of the grabbed juro grand jurors f their homes, any data was published online in various far right social media forums. this is not something that's going to stop. i was taken -- trump knows that. anybody who thinks he is not well aware of this mob that hangs on every word he says,

they are mistaken. there's a reason he goes to waco on the 30th anniversary of the standoff of the compound. there's a reason this looks like an apocalyptic cult. there's a reason he refused to send a text asking people to go home for hours despite ivanka and jared and anybody who could talk to him. he wants this. i don't think it would come as any surprise to anyone if he brought everything down around him were he to be convicted. >> i want to read some reporting from reuters that's in line with something we all talk about pretty regularly. this is a report on the state of political violence in america right now. in the early '70s, american political violence was perpetrated by radicals on the left and focused on destroys property such as government buildings.

miles, you have been clanging the pans on this for as long as you have been coming on this program. i wonder why you think this doesn't command the attention of all of our political leaders. >> i think -- i would have said to you, previously, i think it's because they hadn't felt the effects firsthand. you and i know this. the rest of the panel knows this. often, washington doesn't act on something until it affects them personally, until their

constituents are complaining or until it hits their personal lives. that's not the case here. a lot of these members of congress have had their homes approached by armed intruders, their homes have been invaded. it's affecting their lives. there must be some other factor here at play. i think pete pointed at it earlier. it's the intimidation. it's the mob-like tactics. it's the mafia that now is the republican party. they may experience the violence, but they know if they call it out, they are the next one on the figurative hit list. god forbid that's an actual hit list. i don't want to scare people when i talk about this, but this is just -- it's a data issue at this point. you look at the total volume of threats against public servants. look at the level of chatter as both pete and frank figliuzzi often also point to on this program, and i worry it's a matter of time before we will see more unfortunately successful attempts at violence

against elected leaders and a situation that in some ways will mirror the 1960s and the '70s in the level of tumult. law enforcement can't stop them all. the lone wolves are networking online and across borders to advance these plots. they are looking for what we would say is a approximate cause, a most to declare there's a reason to do something. that's what you saw there that quote at the top end of the hour from that supporter out there saying, a civil war might be coming. donald trump and his allies have been stoking that. that's what i'm watching for in 2024. is it a loss? is it a conviction? is it trump getting jailed? he is trying to build up support for that moment to create a spark that potentially leads to violence which in his mind gives him leverage, but in our minds it should put us in grave

danger. >> eddie, i have spent years trying to communicate that this is not a problem on two sides. we cannot hold up a two side mirror anymore. this is a problem on one side, the party that calls themselves republicans. a conservative judge said it's no longer a functioning political party, it doesn't exist. in milwaukee yesterday, there was something called a presidential debate, which is a traditional political event. there is an instinct to cover it or handle it or touch it like it's a normal thing. it isn't. how do we make that shift? >> we have to name it. we have to do what you just did. we have to avoid the temptation to treat politics as the horse race that we typically do. you know what?

i was thinking about the piece you read from reuters. the description of the violence of the late '60s and '70s as directed at buildings and institutions, not as people. this is the problem with the story we tell ourselves. there was violence directed at people. there was violence directed at people. their homes were being bombed. some of them were lynched. the racial violence of the '60s and '70s wasn't just a radical left. it had something to do with a certain group of folk who thought they were conserving a way of life. we don't want to tell ourselves the truth about all of this. i'm not trying to reduce it to race. i'm trying to talk about the depth of the hatred and the grievance and where it comes from and what donald trump is exploiting. we can't treat this moment as if

it's just politics as usual. if we do, we become complicit. not just in our silence, but our refusal to name what we are seeing. if we do tha -- if we don't do it, the blood will be on our hands, too. >> this kept me up last night. i need you to say more. >> the thing is that when we -- there is this kind of desperate need for normalcy. >> yes. our brain is adaptive. we want to adapt back to what we normally do. right? when a primary starts. our adaptive -- there's not what's happening. >> not what's happening at all. part of what we have to do is to try to figure out -- what you try to do every day is to introduce a different kind of political vocabulary, a different way of thinking that

isn't just reducible to republican and democrat or right and left, progressive and conservative. whether we kind of figure out what are the values that actually animate our being together. let's find a politics that expresses that. instead, we go back to spectacle and look what will happen at 7:30 in atlanta. thrown right back into the spectacle again. >> yep. yep. we will have this temptation to read truth social and his campaign's fund-raising appeals. right? >> yeah. >> i love you all to death. thank you for having -- it's a hard conversation. thank you so much for having it with me. pete, miles, eddie. how the other side, the candidates helped president biden make his case to be re-elected by proving they are too extreme and that he is the only one in step with the majority of the american people. that conversation with our

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what's your expectation for the debate tonight? >> i have none. >> that was the president yesterday speaking for all of us before the republican presidential debate last night. the debate was intended to let republican voters see who might align most closely with them, on the issues, i guess, the real

winner last night on policy appeared to be the current president, joe biden. the candidates displayed views that ranged from offensive to moronic to bizarre. but wildly out of step with the views on policy held by the ma majority of the american people. >> would you sign a six-week ban federally? >> i will stand on the side of life. >> we must have a president who will advocate and fight for the minimum a 15-week limit. >> the reality is, that today it's not a priority for the united states of america. >> we will close the federal department of education. >> do you believe that mike pence did the right thing on january 6? >> this election is not about january 6 of 2021. it's about january 20, 2025.

>> answer the question. you did not answer the question. >> profiles in squirreliness. matt dowd joining us and donna evers and david jolly. all our analysts. i made this point last night. i need you to check my instant reaction. structurally speaking, the republican's position on abortion is out of step. that proved a big loser in arizona, michigan and pennsylvania. denying that climate change exists, the person who wouldn't the debate was the young man who had the video question for a raise of hands whether they deny climate change. if you can get past the

personal -- >> that's all true. the problem is, we are dealing with tiny margins between victory and losing, between saving our democracy and losing our democracy. even the successes that happened in 2022, the democrats kept the senate by a few thousand votes across a few states. candidates similar to what you saw on stage last night, like jd vance in ohio, beat well-spoken candidates like tim ryan in ohio. what you say is true. but he would are fa -- but we a faced with an election where it's not a sense of what goes on. keep in mind, in 2020, if 24,000 votes had changed from joe biden to donald trump, 24,000 in three states, donald trump would be president of the united states of america.

yes, the republicans are out of step. yes, they sound wacky. yes, they are trying to be mini me of donald trump or creating their own crazy stuff. but this is not going to be an election that's going to be -- where we are all -- you look at the polls. the majority are with the democrats on guns or with the democrats or reproductive freedom or the climate. it's decided by a few thousand votes in a few states. we can't forget that in the course of this, that this is not going to be a blowout election. it's going to be an incredibly close election when we get down to it next november. >> matt, this is the longest you have spoken without saying the d word for democracy. i'm going to guess -- correct me if i have this wrong -- that your advice would be for joe biden to run like democracy is on the line.

is that something like what you would advise? >> i'm glad you said that. as we had this conversation throughout 2022, and i and a few others said they need to run on democracy, they finally turned to that. that's where they made the difference in those key races. they lost a number of races because democrats ran traditional ten policy point issue campaigns. that's not what this election is fundamentally about. i think joe biden should run this election completely on the fate of our democracy and what that means to people's lives, for abortion, for guns, whether our economy is going to grow, stagnate or retract. it's all related to the fate of our democracy. i fear -- i fear, just as your previous segment talked about, we get locked into these old modes of being in coverage, many times that happens with

political consultants. they haven't come to the conclusion that we are not in the 1984 campaign or the 1992 campaign or even the 2008 obama campaign. we are in a different place where the precipice of america is on the line. if the campaigns don't run on that, them losing is our fault for not magnifying it but their fault because they are running this traditional campaign that no longer is applicable in america today. >> i think, donna, that is what is in joe biden's heart. i think there was a point when this was a theory and it was out there. i'm happy we have been having this conversation for years. scholarly experts said on there program, if trump wins, it's not

whether the country can survive four years of trump, it's whether he goes back and never leaves. it's not hyperbole to frame the next contest in those terms. what is your sense of what the conversations are going on among democratic campaign minds? >> first of all, i think that joe biden -- president biden shares a view -- you will recall right before -- in the closing days before the 2022 election, people really questioned the fact that president biden made his closing argument on democracy. i think that that is what put the election over the top. i think that there's an opportunity to do the same thing now. i think as matthew has described, all these other issues are making progress on them or anything else, really depends on having a functioning democracy. the best person to make that argument, he is comfortable with it, it's the way he started his campaign in 2020, and it is the

way that he can close out 2024, is making that argument. i have to say, looking at those people on the debate stage last night, you can't have an argument that you have to pay attention to foreign policy and democracies around the world and say you are going to support the guy undermining democracy in the united states. this is an opportunity for president biden and democrats across the country. >> david jolly, i have to sneak in a break. no one is going anywhere. stay with us. break no one is going anywhere stay with us

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from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. being middle class right now, it's tough making ends meet for sure. republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the biggest corporations the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. right. joe biden would rather just stop those corporations from charging so damn much. capping the cost of drugs like insulin. cracking down on surprise medical bills and all those crazy junk fees.

there's more work to do. tell the president to keep lowering costs for middle class families. it strikes me that anyone wanting to understand how to talk to the country about democracy should talk to the three of you. david, as i said before we went to break, we had this conversation around the clock. what does it look like as a campaign message? >> it's hard to translate down to the price of gas. i think what is critical -- matt and donna are right for what joe biden -- your right to self-determination, your ability to exercise your vote. your ability to participate in the economy that's free and fair, to access opportunity and health care and industry and all of these other things. none of that happens if we have a regime in washington that is

focused on protecting one person or perverting the rule of law or creating a system that is unequal in how it provides freedom among the people. i think that's it. the ability for the american voter to achieve their own self-determination is something that democrats have on their side right now, and republicans remind us time and time again that they are willing to crush democracy, to shred the constitution, to trample on individual rights for their own able to protect their power. that's where it becomes power, the power of the individual voter. >> that's where republicans are offering ammunition to make -- raising your hand and saying you will support a convicted felon means you don't believe in the institution you take an oath to protect, because the rule of law applies to even everyonely and you're saying it doesn't apply to donald trump. >> if donald trump is convicted of crimes federal or state for

subverting the constitution or hiding classified documents, whatever that crime may be, i still think he should lead the nation. you can't suggest that somebody whose been impugned on their ability to protect the rule of law has the ability to deliver to the individual their exercise of the freedoms and laws that we're given. a damning moment for those candidates on stage last night. >> i can't let you leave without asking you how unsurprised you were, how unimpressive ron desantis was. >> he's a terrible candidate. he's an unlikable personen he's a weird dude. and america got to see that last night. it's hard to put yourself in the shoes of a republican voter. he said what the republican voter wanted to hear. it was the vivek show. he becomes a surrogate for trump. trump supports vivek, vivek supports trump. and they'll do that to push desantis to third, fourth, fifth in the primary. >> donna, in the end maybe

they'll get their own show on twitter or x or whatever we'll calling it. >> it felt like that was the audition, right? what surprises me was how small bore. between the yelling and screaming and format and audience, and no really big vision coming out of those candidates. so the real winner for last night's debate, i think other than joe biden, was donald trump. he didn't have to show up. he didn't have to be there. and at the same time, he sort of dominated the messaging in the debate. and so none of those candidates really separated themselves, and other than mike pence, you know, sort of standing on principle that is, you know, completely on the thet cal on abortion to where the american public is, there were not a lot of distinguishing moments, and i don't think that works to the benefit of ron desantis who are anybody else who's trying to play for second place. >> to be continued. many, many more times in the coming weeks and months.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are so grateful. "the beat" with my colleague ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, noik coalle. there's something i have been meaning to mention to you. i choose tonight's booking night to mention it. as you probably know, rico is so well known in the movies, mobster films, music, drake famously said, everyone's home for the summer, so let's not do nothing illegal, or we might just get hit