what's unusual. how have we got to this moment? that narrative is very, very contested, even by people in the so-called normal republican party right now. the >> you saw on the, stage the are some fireworks around funding for ukraine. around, i don't, know -- >> abortion restrictions. >> there were no fireworks. a rather not there was support trump. asa hutchinson, who was the last person to make the debate, the least amount of support, and was booed, they agreed perhaps more than anyone that they will support donald trump if he's the nominee. >> and that there's some sort of problem in the criminal justice system that needs to be addressed. >> correct. >> tim scott, not a fire breathing mega candidate, to have tim scott got up there and say, they won, i'm gonna fire merrick garland. i mean if i or kris wright. first of, all everybody gets their own attorney. also, that's weird. firing the fbi director, who's trump's appointee, okay, also little weird. the reason he asked a peacock

on that issue, as irrationally as he did, it's because, in the republican party, there's now, even among non-mega people, this appetite to somehow subject the criminal justice system in the legal system too partisan influence. using this canard that this is joe biden's prosecution, or persecution of his political enemy, and you see even very responsible republicans playing with that particular fire. and it's consequential, and that's the soul of the nation stuff, regardless of this individual man's soul. i should just, say it's also, just for reset purposes, it is nine pm. in atlanta. nine pm on the east coast, where today, former president donald trump did surrender, and was booked at the fulton county jail on federal criminal charges. he moved through the booking process, quickly. he got to jump all the lines, and went fast for him in a matter of minutes. he returned then to the airport in atlanta, he made brief remarks about, once, again the election being rigged. saying that charges against him

in fulton county and elsewhere amount to election interference. essentially, implying that the application of the criminal justice system to his alleged crimes is illegitimate. and as a partisan use of the system that is not for that purpose. therefore, is illegitimate. he then flew home to his golf club thing in bedminster, new jersey. the lasting image of the day, of course, will be this mugshot. take it inside the fulton county, jail released by the fulton county sheriff. we have never had a president, former or current, with a mugshot before. this will not be an easy image for anyone to forget. our friend alex wagner is joining us now. alex, i don't want you to do like art criticism. but i have to ask, -- >> i did study artist or in college. >> i don't want to go to you as our visual art critique expert, but i do want to get your reaction. >> i find it distressing. he's clearly quite angry in it. i also think everybody should get very used to that image.

we're gonna see it emblazoned on a lot of things, for a long time, to me, it seems like, honestly, the starting gun of the next year. which is this bizarre, split screen. we are gonna see. between a man who's running for president, and a man who's defending himself in multiple criminal trials. this is the beginning of. it this is the merch, if you will. for the year ahead. i don't think any of us are really mentally prepared for the complications, the tests, donald trump, in recent weeks, or in the last week, started to temper his language around january 6th. it being a stolen election. at least for a day. he seemed to be listening to his lawyers. and was catching his language a little bit more cautiously. i don't think that's going to last. i think what we're going to have to, sort, of manage as a democracy, as journalists, as

onlookers to history, the ways in which this individual mugshot and here is going to test what is legally allowed for him to say, as a defendant, and as a candidate. i think the justice system is gonna be tested like never before. our ability to ten nations lee follow this as americans, given the onslaught of information we are diving into, and i will tell, you two days ago, i was managing three different legal filings in three different cases. that's what the arrowhead is gonna look like, only it's four. plus. and, you know, truly, we have no idea how it ends. in some ways, i think as journalists, that's exciting. as an american who's used to institutions and integrity of those institutions, it is also terrifying. to me, that is the picture that sets it all in motion. >> you know, it strikes me when you're saying, that alex. this is probably a tenth pole moment, kind of an apex moment

for donald trump, in terms of the iconography and the ability to stage manage this, the ability to get the kind of media coverage the way you want to get it at the time you, when you get it. this is the last time, as far as we know, that is gonna be turning myself in to be arrested. presumably, the first and only time we're gonna be having a mugshot from him released. until he gets in court, it what we think will be televised proceedings. specifically, in the georgia case. there's gonna be a trough in terms of down from this moment, in terms of how much he can control. and how much this is something that he can stage manage for a fact. this picture he gets to do it, in the way he chooses to comport himself in his first televised trial will be another moment like that. between now and, then it can be a lot of court filings. a lot of unglamorous stuff that is not on his timetable. and a lot of verbiage from his lawyers, and a lot of money put out in legal fees.

none of that's gonna be glamorous, or anything he's gonna be able to easily, i think, turn to his advantage. or at least to cast in the way he wants to be seen. >> i, mean like a bridge, jim jordan pulling up opposed, to announce today, an investigation into fani willis from his phony -- he's got seven of the eight republican candidates, who raise their hands. yes, there will be a lot of things suspended tween, but because he has a link these things together, his candidacy isn't about making america great again anymore. i mean, he's not running on that this time. he's running on his freedom. he is running to make his supporters as human shields. that's it. that's the whole message. >> well, to render the american constitutional republican structure of judicial independence no and void. for the purpose of getting him off. that >> he doesn't know that part of the sentence. i swear, he doesn't.

but it's a lot of syllables, i know, he needs to make illegitimate the legal system. >> to be free. >> in order to be. free since that's the immediate impediment that he's facing, the threat of, jail and of all the other bad things that come with all these criminal prosecutions, the thing that is threatening him must be cut off at the knees. so, we're about to embark on a national project of trying to save the republic against a movement beholden to him, national republican party, unable to escape him as their leader. that exists for the sole purpose of destroying one of the three legs of the school of the american constitutional republic. so it is not to go to the pokey. that's forget about you as a country. >> you know, it might end with almost a whimper for trump. kenneth chesebro, remember when you are always like looking up to ken cheeseborough. not even in the fun narrative of the eastman's, every else, the big names. if his trial goes in october, let's just say it happens. it is gonna show a lot of the case.

i was one of those people, i don't really care about the murdaugh trial, but then i watch the documentaries, i was shocked at that guy got convicted. but it was the trial. is the fact the trial was on tv. i do believe they broadcast the trials in georgia. so, what we're all gonna, see whether it's trump's trial, or just chesebro's trial, who are going to get to see -- they're gonna play the perfect phone call. i'm gonna need to find 11,780 votes. the evidence will be televised. donald trump is going to get his ultimate reality tv show moment, whether it's in his own trial, or in that guy tries to trial. and that group of people's trial. that trial, in october, could be the beginning of the end of the big lie. because it's hard to look away from, and continue to believe, the falsity. when the trial is happening, and there's no filter. there's no us. we're not the ones telling you. it's his republican friends. it's all their voices. they're all republicans. and i think the same way that

the january 6th hearings, it did move everybody. but there were some people that said, you know what? he did it. there were trumpers on the e. jean carroll trial, enclosed in that space that traditional, space even some mega people on -- he didn't. we might actually be in for a positive reckoning, because of the way georgia operates. >> the other thing to remember, as we head into this split screen, out or talking about with the trials and election, obviously, the election loomed. the chemicals of the shooting, for you get elected president again. that is running on a platform, to your point, rachel amina finish the job i saw on january 6th. almost explicitly. we saw it on january 6th, and we're gonna finish it off, if you get me back in there. american politics is a game of inches, man. everyone starts about 40, for 45%. and then presenter two, here you don't need someone enormous sea change repudiation of donald trump for political -- >> that happens in history.

>> you don't need that. for it to be an electoral catastrophe for for the republican party. it five to 10% of republicans, real republicans, are like, i'm done. i'm out. that's a huge problem. >> you don't need, persuasion happens on the margins. i do think that, like, not all this is priced in. a trial for him isn't priced. in a possible, verdict i think is gonna like be in the pug you an election day happens. i don't think all that is priced. did it happen to the margins i think there's persuadable people that this guy is, uniquely malevolent force in american politics, and can never be anywhere near the state of power ever again. >> the ratings last night, for the fox debate, suggests that there are some republicans were alternative curious. >> a lot of people watched. >> way more people watched than were expected. that was a trump free republican the debate without a lot of skilled debating. i just wanted, magically to get a new statement from the fulton county sheriff's office. this is interesting.

media advisory, election fraud defendants booking update. moments, ago defended donald j trump surrendered to authorities at the fulton county jail, in georgia. mr. trump's bond order and stipulations are the result of negotiator in the district attorney's office, and his attorneys. it's expected that the remaining seven defendants, named in the georgia election interference indictment, will surrender by tomorrow, friday august 25th, 2023. again, seven defendants have to submit themselves, have to surrender, by noon tomorrow. or face arrest. sheriff patrick labette would like to thank his sworn and civilian staff at the fulton county sheriff's office, and all officers with our law enforcement partners, for carrying out their duties as prescribed by law. with integrity and consummate professionalism. added security will remain in place, at the fulton county jail. excuse, me at fulton county. officers will also continue to ensure a safe space for protesters. however, anyone who breaks the law will be arrested and face appropriate consequences.

that statement tonight, from the fulton county sheriff's office. joining us now, nbc news correspondent, vaughn hillyard. who's been with us tonight from outside the fulton county jail. in atlanta. vaughn, i want to ask you what you're hearing from the trump campaign, or from trump allies this evening, there reaction to this remarkable series of events? >> right, look at that photo. we're talking about, as a trump ally just told me, what will go down, in his words, the most iconic photo graph in american history. that is a close trump ally. what we're talking about donald trump, and what this image evokes, here i travel around this country, going to most of donald trump's campaign events. meaning what, i would, call the potent minority in this country. there are plenty of persuadable republicans, plenty of anti trump republicans. but there are millions of die hard loyalists. and when you talk about donald trump, and what he evokes and that image, but also in his conversation with tucker carlson last night, i want to read you one specific quote from donald trump last night.

it was this. quote, there's a level of passion that i've never seen. there's a level of hatred that i've never seen. it's probably a bad combination. i've been covering this man on the road for eight years. i don't think donald trump is wrong. there may be fewer trump supporters now, but they are more passionate. what donald trump suggested, potentially, an open conflict. yesterday, tucker carlson put up multiple times, a question about potential civil war. open conflict. and he did not bat down a single time. when you are talking, nicole, your talk about how donald trump is used the american people as his own shield. in large part, he is telling them, he is also there shield. when we talk about pardons, it was donald trump who gave pardons to roger stone. paul manafort. other close allies. just a couple years, ago i stood in the office of former maricopa county sheriff, joe arpaio. in maricopa county, he had the pardon that donald trump gave him for criminal contempt of court.

framed in his office. in large part, donald trump has been a shield for so many empowering and the american political system. so, for battle, trump there's nobody here to pardon him when we watched him go into this jail, he faces serious charges that will ultimately go to trial. when you're talking about his allies, they will use this to their political advantage. because that is the only option that they have. they need to galvanize that potent minority, and the republican electorate, to give him a shot of winning that back the white house. as we go around this country, folks open the talk about some award to me. they made it. because they're concerned, and they see the frustrations over what they believe has been a taking of their own democracy. and their defense of donald trump. >> vaughn, in those conversations you're describing, are you hearing any resentment or even gallows humor? or resignation about trump continuing to ask his small

dollar donors to fund his criminal defense? >> no. we have seen millions of dollars continue to pour in. for donald, trump i think it's important to note, there's text messages that go out. i've watched folks on their phone go and click on that button to donate. emails that are coming in, when they go and donate, 90% of that goes to the 2024 campaign. that other 10% that folks are making in donations are going to save america pack, his leadership pack. what has been used to pay off illegal services, donnelly for donald trump, but others who are at the heart of the january six investigation. the last fcc filing, this summer, show that there just a few million dollars in that account after having tens of millions of dollars at the beginning of the year. the funds are drying up, that is where you see frustration from these other 18 codefendants. one of those being jenna ellis, the fact that there is not money that is being put out for donald trump. suddenly, them in the used to claim that he was the billionaire is suddenly working for troubles that some key

individuals, who could very well work with prosecutors, against him, the funds, frankly, do not seem to be there. to help in their own defense. >> yeah, which may end up being counter strategic, as he heads towards a unified rico indictment. no matter how many of these defendants are tried together. vaughn hillyard force of the fulton county jail, vaughn, thank you. lawrence, former president trump has been assigned an inmate number. he hasn't peter. 01135809. he's also individual one. we've got all these little criminal justice system touchstones for him now. i, mean the crass common denominator of everything we're talking about, here how to turn those things into not just fundraising fodder, but some sort of badge of honor. against the criminal justice system itself, which is some sort of bad thing that needs to be dismantled. >> yeah, because he cannot admit humiliation or defeat, he takes a day like today, which

is humiliating, and he pretends i'm the boss of the way things are working today. look at me. i'm doing this for you. you, know we've been sharing the screen with that photograph of donald trump that mugshot of donald trump. and one of the rituals of the second term presidency, a significant number of hours spent posing for your presidential portrait. if you are one-term president, you usually haven't done that. so, you post for your presidential portrait after your one term. there is donald trump's presidential portrait. there will be no picture of donald trump that lives longer, or a scene by more people, in the history of the world then that picture. which people will be looking at 300 years from now, as the picture of the 45th president of the united states. >> can i just ask for a visual

presentation question about this. i am not skilled at this. is there something weird going on at the tip of his nose? >> i'm not either. it looks like the light. meadows shot, i don't have meadow shot available. yeah, he looked beat up. >> yeah, well, i mean, -- >> i don't know. >> i didn't bring a ring light there. >> unflattering. >> i'll tell you this, his supporters will not find anything offensive about this photo. except that he had to submit to him. >> that photo, it's gonna be one of the divided country it'll be a unifying image. >> it will be everywhere, across the divide, as a kind of malleable semafor. that changes into meaning, depending on whose hands waving it. >> seeing that shot you just suggested, in the control and put, up with mark meadows as

well, that's our president and his white house chief of staff. >> yeah. >> that's the end of their era. they got one term. and then this. to have meadows and others, i mean, to have senior justice department official facing felony indictment under the same rico charge that he's, in to have his lawyer, rudy giuliani, himself in his time a towering american political figure, have him also facing 13 felony charges, as many charges as trump. i mean, it is just, there's no going back from this. in terms of who we are as a country. these prosecutors know what they are doing. and the country has to contend with the implications of it. but what these men chose to do with the power that they have, that brought them to this point, ought to be the center of our moral focus here. the practical concerns, political concerns, and world

changing concerns about what we've become as a country, and terms of whether we can handle this, but what they did in terms of, you know, just a fulton county trying to make sure fulton county votes didn't count. >> it's amazing. >> for the come to this, it's a reckoning. that's what this is. for those men. and for all of us. our coverage of the surrender and arrest of donald trump on felony criminal charges in fulton county georgia continues now. with alex wagner picking up our coverage. alex? >> thank, you rachel. we have been through the time space, continue and are in the same room on television at the same time. at the nine pm hour. not quite as historic as everything else. >> very small. >> close second. >> just pointed out everybody. >> yes, we're gonna continue the discussion of this historic day of news. thank, you my friend, for everything that i've done at the big table. we can report this, our 12 members of the alleged criminal conspiracy to overthrow the 2020 election have surrendered to prosecutors, in fulton county.

and that list now includes the man at the top of that alleged conspiracy. donald john trump. tonight, the first time in history, that we have seen a mugshot of a former president of the united states, a man who is now known by this inmate idea number. p 01135809. the process that resulted in that mugshot, and that assigned number, began when mr. trump landed in atlanta around seven pm eastern time this evening. at which point, trump's motorcade took him directly to the fulton county jail, where he was booked. and arrested around 7:40 pm. the 45th president of the united states was then fingerprinted, and had his mugshot taken. we also know that mr. trump enlisted the services of a local bail bondsman to post as 200,000 dollar bail. now, in addition to donald trump, these are the 11 people who have turned themselves in thus far. they include trump's former white house chief of staff, mark meadows.

and several of his former attorneys, including rudy giuliani, john eastman, jenna ellis, sydney powell, and kenneth chesebro. that cavalcade of former trump lawyers all have their most shots taken today, just as we were learning that trump is once again shaking up his legal team. and we will have more on that development later on this hour. there are still seven defendants in this case, who have not yet surrendered, though i do believe we have some breaking news, that they are expected to surrender by tomorrow at noon. that list includes jeffrey clark, the man trump tried to install as u.s. attorney general after the 2020 election. and trevian kutti, the publicist for rapper and not the enthusiast, kanye west. known as we are. who is involved in the alleged plot to -- a georgia poll worker, rudy freeman. for, now all eyes are on the former president. who just spoke to reporters on the tarmac at the airport. repeating the claims that he did nothing wrong, after being arrested for the fourth time in

less than five months. charged with a total of 91 felonies. joining us now, from the fulton county courthouse, in atlanta, msnbc legal analyst. lisa rubin. lisa, from the outside it looked like a remarkably choreographed in fairly undramatic processing. it was pretty speedy, in fact, from the outside. again, can you offers any detail about what might have happened in inside the jail as donald trump came in for his arrest? >> when donald trump came in for his arrest, alex, i think what's mostly remarkable about it, how unremarkable it was. except for the speed with which he was processed. which isn't something that isn't normal defendants might encounter. but he was fingerprinted, he obviously had his picture taken, and they ensured that he posted a bond, he referred earlier, to the negotiation of his bond through a bail bondsman. and the process was largely

over, and donald trump returned to his, car and the motorcade left. it was a short proceeding. and a fairly undramatic. one for the fact that it even happened at all, you're not standing here at the fulton county courthouse, to my, right there's a parking garage, where someone has hung a sign that, says trump, 20 dash 2024 years. that, i think, encapsulates the intensity of opinion on one side, we've also seen cars driving by, all the, along with people shouting things at us like, your pathetic. trump 2024. trump 2020. all day long. so, notwithstanding, how unremarkable his processing was, today was still a remarkable and historic day. particularly in the courthouse behind me. >> lisa, the bail bondsman, can we just talk about that for a minute? we all have been treated to donald trump's claims that he's a fabulously wealthy individual, worth billions. bail bondsman sat at 200,000,

is it unusual for a billion or two years or bail bondsman? >> yeah, it's also unusual for a billionaire-tier post a bond in cash, as he did in the e. jean carroll case. instead of getting a commercial insurance company to do it for him, he couldn't do it there. talking about bill, it leads you to believe that donald trump is either ridiculously cheap, which is his reputation, or he has liquidity problems. which has long been rumored. tish james, who's going to try the civil fraud case against him in october, that's really the gist of her claims. that trump is not the guy zillionaire that he claims to be, but has been playing a game of smoke and mirrors about his finances for decades. including with his lenders, insurance companies, tax authorities. >> lisa reuben, thank you, my friend, for all of the commentary and reporting this afternoon. through the evening, we are so deeply appreciative of your time and your thoughts.

i want to bring in now nbc news senior legal correspondent, laura jarrett, and my colleague and friend, both of you guys actually, chris hayes. host of all, in and former -- yes, and former federal u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. i said chris, your former federal -- >> either told you as a prosecutor. >> barbara mcquade. we have a dream team here. chris, first, the limits that have been imposed on trump's speech in the coming, whatever, weeks, months, years. trump bail stipulations include no direct or indirect threat of any nature against codefendants, witnesses, including unindicted coconspirators, any victim, the community, or any property in the community, and that includes, but is not limited, to post on social media, re-posts of posts, made by another individual on social media, and speech, presumably. it seems almost impossible that he's going to abide this. >> that's my first instinct. i love to mind on this. on one hand, i think it's

likely to just test and test and test, he wouldn't get away with. and what are gonna do? from a jail? go ahead. come on. you're gonna throw me in jail? fulton county judge, judge tanya chutkan, whatever. at the other mind i, have like, he has, throughout his life, displayed an uncanny ability of like walking up to the line, and softly transgressing. it possibly deniable way. i think we'll see a lot of flirting with the boundaries. it's gonna be like a real test of these judges. and the system as a whole. the degree to which what they're going to, like, not take any got, -- >> messing around. >> the community, trump has spent, laura, the last few days, just on a tirade against atlanta. it's crime rate. a i won't use his words to describe the, city by that absolutely intersects with one of the present provisions he's not supposed to violate. i wonder, the judge in this

case, i believe his name is scott mcafee, mcafee, 34 years old. >> but on the bench for a minute. >> literally appointed, sworn in, on february 1st. he is the newest of 19 judges at fulton county superior court. i mean, what do we know about him? what do we think about his ability to manage what is going to be a raucous case? >> we don't know much about. and he has been on the bench that long. certainly, never the case this big. even in his own practice as a former prosecutor. he's never had to do something like this. and as chris said, i think that what we're seeing, this entire display, not just, today but all four of these cases, it's a stress test. it's a stress test of the system. and there's this weird duality when it comes to the former president for which processes are just like every other defendant. and which ones veer off course. like the mugshot today, it's the first time he actually had to go through the process just like everybody else.

and then he has these other bill conditions, which are like, very bizarre. not being able to re-post with somebody else has posted. that's not a normal bill condition. it is a particular one that judges feel is necessary. and the prosecutors feels necessary. given his propensity, and what he's done in past cases. so, it's just remarkable to me, to sort of think about what has been off the charts bonkers in terms of this case and for cases being different. and what is, there's something just striking about having the former president have to go in a place that's being investigated by the justice department, a place that it is infected with bedbugs, right? what is more humbling than that. or at least should be for anybody who doesn't want to be there. >> for a man who used to live in trump tower and the white house. and still does in some cases. not the white house, though. barr, when you talk about the stress test, it seemed like a lot of it is left to the discretion of prosecutors in

terms of what they will complain about, and the justice and how they rule on a defendant violating the terms of bail. by virtue of the fact that trump was fingerprinted and mugshot it in a way that he has not been in any of these indictments, should we infer anything about the way georgia is going to deal with this defendant? will it be a tougher line nato? or is it premature to suppose anything based on the processing thus far? >> i don't want to make any assumptions based on one small data point, but if you are to generalize, in big terms, federal court is the very polite kind of place, the federal prisons are very clean, very tidy, sometimes they call them club fed because they are camps at-ing's and very nice settings. state court is different. it deals with violent crime, street crime, and treats people like they are criminals in the

worst sense of that word. dehumanizes people. sometimes treats people like animals. they should not be treated that way. and yet that is sometimes the way the world is seen in the lens of state court because a deal with difficult circumstances of humanity. to that extent it might be a more rough-and-tumble world than state in state court. they don't put up with a lot of nonsense. i think that there is a possibility that we may see fani willis take a tough line, and the judge take a tough line. i will tell you what, the thing that surprised me and i appreciated was the strategic decision by fani willis to say, i have issued arrest warrants, but i'm gonna give you a little courtesy. if you show up within the next two weeks, i won't execute them. you can turn yourself in. there was such a smart move. we don't do it in federal court. we call and say hello, would it be convenient for you to bring your client in sometime next two days? and we let them call the shots. this was a very shrewd move, i think, because she correctly

anticipated that either trump or some of these other defendants who would try to jerk around and slow things down, just as we saw mark meadows do and jeff clark to, in the judge wouldn't have any of it. it may be that we see this tougher stance in state court that we have seen to date in federal court. >> it's hard to imagine fani willis is going to let trump slide on stuff. but it does beg the question, what's the punishment. having said that, chris, what we are seeing here with this, i think zealous prosecutor who has her ducks in a row by all outside accounts, she is ready for whatever comes, whether that is a speedy trial motion or a hearing that rack meadows has on monday. and it gets to this idea that this anti-democratic tendency which is we have to curtail the power of these rogue prosecutors or these urban centers or the strongholds of democratic opinion. i feel like this dynamic, in particular, is going to put that effort on the part of republicans, sometimes states cracking down on cities, on

municipalities. it's going to put it all on steroids. >> yes. it is sort of grown up to speak to some of the most ugliest parts of the story that donald trump tells about america, which is like the story that he told about the election, which is that rudy freeman and shaye moss and rudy giuliani's words were passing around a usb drive like it was drugs. in philadelphia, and in detroit, and in atlanta. centers of black inner city life, that's where, like, the nasty stuff happens. that's where the violence happens, the vote stealing. these places are like outside the periphery of real america. i represent you, the real americans, and this alien force that we loathe and fear is now trying to bring me into it. that is clearly not even the subtext, it's the plain text. he said it about alvin bragg, about fani willis. it will be one of the rhetorical themes he returns

to. it's disgusting in the way that a lot of -- >> republican governor. you have an echo of that in texas with greg abbott. you have republican governors who look at their urban centers. saying we need to take over the management of your water system or your prison system. >> we are election board in harris county texas. >> that rhetoric is more than rhetoric. it's operationalized. it's a state after state in which you have republican gerrymandered state legislatures view municipal local governments with skepticism in contempt, but you are not actually allowed to do these things for yourself, and we will tell you how it's done. we have seen it happen in tennessee, where the state legislature has gone after the national city council. we've seen it in texas. we've seen it in wisconsin. this is a common theme. there is something that really epitomizes everything they loathe and fear about the figure of fani lewis. >> laura, in terms of fani willis and her preparedness for

whatever comes, kenneth chesebro is asking for a speedy trial. fani willis seems ready. the judge wants to start october 23rd. that seems, rachel said it tonight, i'll say it again, it seems impossible given the size of this, the pretrial motions. but what actually is feasible here? i think the expectation was, the soonest any trial is going to happen here is jack smith's trial, and that will be the first quarter of next year. >> it was a track nickel rule the got triggered. once he put in a demand for a speedy trial, we've been saying, well they called his bluff. she has an obligation under the speedy trial act. chesebro has a right to a speedy trial. it triggers this whole process that has to happen. that's why the judge enters that date of october 23rd. i don't think that's going to hold realistically, but they have put it down is a marker. made it clear it's just for chesebro at this time. i don't think it's likely that we're going to see even him

tried that day or even more than one of these defendants tried that day. we've talked about how complex the case is just on the facts alone. she is pulling in a lot of information, not just about things that happened in georgia, but everywhere. the coffee county breach, part of the allegation is they're sending that data outside the state, to what they, and we don't know. they're gonna get discovery and all that. it highlights what we are dealing with here. october is technically what has to happen for speedy trial reasons. in all likely could, i think it's unrealistic. >> the discovery process doesn't begin now. for those who have been following some of the federal trials, the discovery process is underway after the surrender. >> yes. >> that is not happening in georgia. will likely not happen until september, right? >> perhaps. you'll see the judge has set an expedited schedule and so we will see what other motions get filed, even before september. already we have seen right meadows, we don't know what

kind of effect that might have on this, and we just have to wait and see. this is the first stage of what is going to be, like you said, weeks, months-long, perhaps a years-long process. we watch the first baby step on this. >> as we talk about the issue of severability, i really have gone to television law school, and we talked about moving this case into federal court. if kenneth chesebro, if he is successful in getting, sorry, if chesebro is successful in severing his case, that bodes well for, sorry, is don trump's successful in severing his case, that would have an effect on everybody else in this case as well, correct? and likewise, if mark meadows is able to move his case into federal court, that also would apply to everyone in that case, in this case. is that correct? >> it's not clear. the removal statute says that

when you have a federal official acting within the scope of his duties and others under his direction, they may remove the case to federal court. and so i think all of this turns on whether anyone was really acting within the scope of the authority of the native states of america. i think it's a pretty easy answer. the answer is no. but if a judge were to find that mark meadows and donald trump are acting within the scope of their authority and these others were simply acting at the direction to advance the interests of the country, not a candidate or the campaign, but the country, then they could come along as well. but it could be the judge finds that the federal officers were acting in the scope of their duties, but that these other people were not. it's not clear whether everybody goes or whether these cases get severed. i personally think that 19 defendants are not going to fit in a courtroom and some of these will get severed, one way or another. i think statistically it's likely there will be guilty

pleas, something like 90 to 95% of defendants plead guilty. at some point i think the case will be paired down and it will shake out. but it could very well be that kenneth chesebro, who has this right to a speedy trial, could get severed goes first and wins or loses in october all by himself. so i think it's going to be interesting to see how all of this shakes out. it's very wonky and discussing all this will remind me my mother asking me, what do you do when you're not the courtroom? >> your mother and my mother a very similar. >> you>> i do wonder, laura, bee we were talking about this last night, if chesebro goes first, the prosecution has to present its entire case. that is not that advantageous for folly willis, is it? she would have to say this is what i get. here we are. and everybody else gets a sneak preview. >> perhaps it's not advantageous for the former

president to have this all laid out, as we have talked about, this will be televised, and if she wins a conviction i think that that is something that would at least contemplate having severe implications for the rest of these cases. she goes into this wind in her sails, and we're a long way from all of this, but if she was to get a conviction, yeah, she'd have to put out some evidence that she might not want to early, and she may object to, this by the, way down the line, we'll see. but if she actually got a conviction i think that that would be something she would prefer to have rather than have a whole case go away. she's the reason she's doing, this the whole case goes back, if she doesn't follow this properly. >> there's no apples to apples comparison of any of these cases, because they stand alone. but take the new york case with alvin bragg. in a normal case he plead out and not due time. in this case, with a 19 codefendants, people can plea. you're nuts if you're the

lawyer for some of these folks, you're the fake elector, you would probably plead and cooperate. if, again, but maybe the umbrella of donald trump's influence and the amount he can spend on legal defense through constant fund-raisers is such that he keeps every by the content, jenna ellis is complaining that she's not. >> she's is he's not playing for anybody. >> if you're not getting a dime, we're looking at legal bills that could go into the seven figures. this could be a really expensive situation. and you are a state rep who the fake elector? like, again, there is a reason -- >> by your mugshot mug and you're out. >> barb just said this. it's actually pretty messed up feature of the criminal justice system here, the police system, nowhere contemplated in the u.s. constitution, i would just note, the whole way the pipeline works is to plea. i just got to think and we will see, maybe not, but it does seem to me that that is a

likely eventuality. and also really a problem. and to your point, you don't want, if you're donald trump, and you're trying to get people not cooperate, you don't want her to go to court and get a conviction and be like, kenneth chesebro, you're going to go to jail in georgia. you do not want that to be shown to all the other codefendants. >> that's the other piece of this. no matter who was on trial, even if it's not trump, everybody is digesting it. i want to bring in joyce vance, in msnbc, legal analyst. we're talking about the fact that this number, 19, goes down, in terms of codefendants, and the likelihood that some people plead out here. my question to you, is the fact that jenna ellis, one of trump's lawyers, is saying long trump is not paying the legal bills have any codefendants in georgia. this is suggest that trump is

taking an adversarial stance toward his lawyers? and it's impossible that the lawyers, looking at the lack of money flowing in the direction, say screw, this i'm out of here? >> i heard barb mcquade reference the fact that more than 90% of federal defendants plead guilty. that is in cases across the board, whether it holds up here or not is an open question. but what we are seeing with gianna alice and some of the others is the first sign of a split among thendts. when you've got 19 of them it's pretty inevitable that that will happen and when it will get even worse will be when they see discovery. laura mentioned that that has not happened yet in georgia the prosecution doesn't give the defendants a view of its evidence until arraignment. but i think it's a good bet that fani willis will be ready to go with their discovery pretty close in time to arraignment, and that's the first chance these folks will have to sit down with their

lawyers and view the reality of just how good the evidence willis has a manse'd against them. that's a moments where some of these folks, and i think chris is right, especially the georgia electors, will begin to think seriously about pleading guilty. they may not all have evidence to offer against trump, but some of them likely will or have evidence to offer against those who were close to them. that's how these big defendant cases move. there will be a process of people coming in and wanting to plead guilty, flipping, offering more testimony, strengthening fani willis's case, and ultimately she will go to trial with some number that i think will be a lot smaller than 19 defendants. >> it's sort of the calm before the storm, joyce. when you talk about willis's preparedness, there is something happening on monday that i would love to get you in private pinion on, which is mark meadows is making the case that they should be taken to federal court. fani willis has called in a

couple of witnesses that could prove pivotal in mark meadows's argument. one is brad raffensperger, and also his chief investigator, frances watson. watson was one of the people that physically prevented mark meadows from entering the space where the cobb county audit was being performed, i think on december 22nd, when he traveled to georgia. and meadows personally arranged the call between trump and watson. again, frances watson, brad raffensperger's chief investigator, who, where trump told watson she would be praised if he prevailed in the election. she seems like an incredibly damaging witness as mark meadows is trying to say, everything i was doing down there was under the color of my work for the federal government. barbara, you talk about the evidence presented in the hearing, that's damaging also because it could be used in a criminal trial, can't it?

>> it can, especially when meadows himself tries to testify. but i think his lawyers must be smart enough to preclude him from doing that. but if he is to testify, and frankly, he has the burden of proving that this case should be removed to federal court. it's hard to imagine how he winds without testifying. i can't imagine he will, because as you, said the testimony could be used against him. the question the judge is going to be looking here for is, is this an act in the interest of united states of america? was the president executing the laws here? was he taking care that the laws be faithfully executed? no. it was political activity. one of the things fani willis said in the brief that is so brilliant is, it couldn't be because the hatch act says the political activity is prohibited for federal employees. and so the idea that he's down there doing something on behalf of the united states is just observed. so once we hear from brad raffensperger, once we hear from this investigator, it's going to be clear that this political activity and --

>> just for a pause for some updates here, chris, donald trump is back on twitter, formerly known as twitter, ex now, he's on x. he's officially back on social media that is not truth social. where you still remain, i will note to everybody, and he is tweeting -- >> value tweet. >> yes, but you're still there. he's tweeting on his mugshot, and what does this all represent to you? the return of donald trump to twitter x and the mugshot, august 24, 2023. >> here's what it represents to me. donald trump i think has a theory about attention, which has borne him in good stead, which is that all attention is good attention, and the more attention you have the better. it's like well. >> all presses good press. as long as they spill unit right. i think that was actually true in 2015, 2016. it clearly was the case the

detention helped him in the republican primary. he now faces another republican primary. he's applying the same metric here. i don't think it's even that prefrontal cortez. i think it's more down the brain stem where he gets this sense. but it's also the case, i have to remind myself, gravity exist, he's 30 points underwater in the latest pennsylvania polls today, 30 points underwater. going around being, like, check out my mugshot. i'm back on twitter. check out my mugshot. that does work amongst a certain segment, and it may give you some marginal advantage and republican primary, but again -- >> it's something to note. >> absolutely. i just don't think it's particularly politically potent if he is attempting to win back swing voters that he lost in 2020 when he lost an election by 7 million votes and dozens of electoral votes before he

tried to undo the american constitution republic by any means necessary. >> also, laura, as we laid out the litany of prohibitions that face trump, he's about election interference interference on social media. has it been an hour? >> one of brigitte provisions is not doing anything to obstruct the administration of justice. so not just like harassing a witness or talking to a codefendant. and a query, how broadly the office reads that provision and how strongly the judge is going to enforce that provision within the actual bond world. >> can i ask you don't question? >> there are no dumb questions. >> my understanding and he repeats from tonya track can, something about her picture, she was no good whatever. who, with the profits, where the prosecutors have to file --

it's >> gonna be up to them to decide strategically, at what point do we push that button? >> he's going to test. it he's going to test it. >> if they do it too soon, there is a question about your limited strategy. you don't want to keep pressing the button to no avail. >> it's a careful dance. to be continued, right? laura jarrett, chris hayes, barb mcquade, and joyce vance, thank you so much. just hours before donald trump officially turned himself into atlanta authorities, completing his fourth criminal arrest, house republicans launch another effort to rescue him. house judiciary committee chair congressman jim jordan has opened an inch work worry a default and county d.a. fani willis. in a letter to miss willis, john accused her of leaving a politically motivated prosecution of the former president. the congressman questioned whether willis worked with the

justice department and it's special counsel, jack smith, and demanded that willis turn over all documents and communications between her office and federal officials, including anything related to the use of federal funds. now we have seen republicans in congress circle their wagons around mr. trump before it happened after mr. trump was indicted in manhattan, republicans demanded testimony and records from manhattan d.a. alvin bragg's hush money investigation. the d.a.'s, the a bragg's response to all that was basically, it is not appropriate for congress to interfere with pending legal investigations. that fight escalated when mr. bragg filed a lawsuit against jim jordan to block republican demands for testimony and information from mr. bragg's office. bragg only dropped that suit after reaching a settlement agreement with congressman jim jordan. joining me now is jess mcintosh, democratic strategist and former director of communications outreach for the hillary clinton campaign and michael steele, former chair of the republican national

committee. michael, jess, thank you for being here. on this historic night. so we have seen, jess, the release of a mugshot of a former president ignited states. the assignment of an inmate number to the former said president united states. we have now seen him return to social media, twitter, x, whatever you want to call it. he's tweeting out the mugshot. republicans have been tweeting their own mug shots in solidarity in the hours previous to this one. can the wagons circling have its desired effect, which is effectively to insulate president trump from the legal peril and the damage that is coming his way? >> all it can do is insulate him in the increasingly shrinking bubble that he currently finds himself. there is no chance that what is happening tonight is having a positive effect on the piece of the electric that he's going to need to make his peace to very

quickly. if we go back to last night? >> please. i see it is part one. >> when they were asked, will you support him if he is convicted and running from prison, and they all put their hands up, it's a lot more striking and shocking today even than it was yesterday because as somebody who has thought about this man's misdeeds for a very long time and thought about this day for a very long time, it drove home today, even for somebody who has spent a long time contemplating, so i'm sure that's what's happening for everyone. >> by the way, they're going to keep getting asked that question, presumably, in the course of future debates. they will have more evidence of his alleged guilt as time goes on. michael steele, last night and today is a portrait of the republican party into parts, i dipstick, if you will. i wonder what you think about the events of last night's, the statements of last night, the rally around the trump flag of

last night, and the context, the cold evening light of today, there is a mugshot out. there is an inmate number. and the criminal trials are going to begin. >> they are. there is a mugshot. inmate never p 01135809. >> you've memorized. it >> formerly known as trump. >> [laughter] look, i think for me, alex, the question is why, do we still drive this from the lane of, oh my god, this is amazing, i'm surprised. i'm not surprised what i heard last night on that stage. what did surprise me i will say is the way nikki haley kind of leaned into the opportunity to best the fellas by actually taking risks politically on abortion, for example, and on the environment. and that creates an interesting

conversation within that particular bubble. but in the main, why is anybody surprised at any of this at this point? ma owns the gop. the gop at one point was the controlling entity and maga was a subsidiary. well the subsidiary is now the major partner. it owns the whole thing. the reality of it is, they are driving this. trump is driving this. and if you believe, after what we witnessed last night, to the point just made, that anyone is going to strip donald trump that leadership moment, then you are already starting to lose this election. because you are trying to put it in a box in which it will not fit. this is not a conventional time, nor has it ever been, since 2015, and it's not going to be a conventional election. donald trump can be standing on a stage in chains, in an orange

jumpsuit, and playing the victim, and they will rally to him. so the question now, in the face of this mugshot of a former president, now still running for president yet again, to the country's, are you really? are you prepared to do that? do you really want to do that? it's not so much about the gop. i've been saying this for a number of years now. this is bigger than the gop. the gop is not that large. it's only, what, 20% on a good day? of all voters? so let's be honest about what's happening in the country and what this picture on this screen says to a lot of americans who aren't out there screaming and shouting on twitter, you know, posting stuff, but who will quietly, as they did in 2016, as they did in 2020, to the tune of plus seven to 8 million americans than 2016, in 2024, go to the polls and vote for that fella.

>> that individual. in my number pco 11. . . but michael steele is quick on memory. the other reality here, jess, arguably these are both fake electors. these fake electors plots unfolded in michigan, pennsylvania, wisconsin, nevada. those are states you need to win if you are running for president. and those are states that have a visceral memory, a muscle memory of what unfolded. in some states, including michigan, potentially arizona, georgia most certainly there is ongoing litigation around those fake electors, and where the margins of 2020 where tight and you've got to think that you've got to think two major national cases unfolding about crimes that took place in those swing states would have an effect on

an election in those swing states. >> if you look, and let me mix issues for a second, if you look at what's happened with all of the abortion votes, every state where that has been on the ballot and has one, that means the republicans are crossing. you cannot win in montana or kansas with just democratic votes. so republicans are already turning out for elections that they have traditionally not been courted for. we are already seeing republicans and independents rejecting what these extremists are doing in public schools. they do not like book bans. so already on the ideological front we are seeing the republican party league the last vestiges of sanity and common sense that it still had. the problem is, now the only person who can win the republican primary through that maga base that has been cultivated, is a big hit. so it doesn't matter how good nikki haley is at talking about abortion, she's not gonna be the republican nominee. donald trump is. so now we get to see how much

of the republican party he takes down with him. jim jordan kevin mccarthy are committed to using the entire house of representatives to protect him while he faces justice for his criminal activities. this is the entire party now. this is not just trump. it is every republican in washington and running for president. >> michael steele, what would be your word of caution to the jim jordans of the world where donald trump's footsoldiers at present in congress? >> they gave up on caution a long time ago. these people don't give a dam about being cautious. it's all to the wall. it's a rallying and i think jess just nailed it. because the answer to the point i just made is what jessie just said. the problem that what jim jordan is doing, what mccarthy is doing, in trying to

interfere in the carrying out of a judicial process at a state level, they're trying to do the hook with, oh yeah, if you spend any federal dollars. it's all bs. it's throwing crap at the wall to see what can stick to delay the process. the reality is what jessie just said. people have already started to look and follow this and go, you know what? i don't like book bans. i don't like where we are heading on abortion, and that's going to be some of the signature that the party is going to fail to get, which is what nikki was trying to do last night. >> we'll see how it pans out. there is a lot more to come. michael steele, jess mcintosh, thank you my friends for the for your time tonight. now it's time to the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex. thank you. we're gonna cover all the legal news of the day, of which there was a lot in addition to what happened to do t