we are coming, here with breaking news from atlanta where something both extort can somewhat routine is playing out. >> this is the buffoon-ing of the american presidency. they are clear that the motorcade is beginning as we expect to watch the vehicles carrying the former president coming in here into jail. >> the 45th president of the united states was then fingerprinted and had his mugshot taken. >> he was engaging with the dea of what they called a criminal enterprise to overturn georgia's election results. >> they see this as political persecution.

>> i did nothing wrong. i did nothing wrong. and everybody knows it. >> repeating the claims that he did nothing wrong after being arrested for the fourth time in less than five months, charged with a total of 91 felonies. we >> have never before had a mugshot of the united states president before, but now we do. here it is. criminal defendant, and former president donald j trump presumed innocent until proven guilty. >> it is now midnight, on the east coast, nine pm in the west emily velshi continuing msnbc special coverage on a stunning and extraordinary night in american history. this is our 45th president, donald j trump at his mugshot taken tonight at fulton county jail. the mugshot is a first for him in his for indictments. and the first time a united states president, former or current has had one taken. this image comes courtesy of the fulton county jail where he surrendered and was placed under direction on election

interference charges. he was given an inmate number p 01135809. he arrived in atlanta, shortly after seven pm this evening after flying down from his home in new jersey, he then drove to the fulton county jail, under police tech scored, heavy police escort where he was booked on racketeering charges related to his effort to reverse the 2020 election loss in georgia. the whole process took just over 20 minutes, trump's booking document lays out the 200,000 dollar bond tied to his release ahead of his trial. nbc has confirmed he used fosters bail bonds, and large bill georgia to post that bond. after his booking was completed, trump then headed back to the airport for the flight to new jersey before he boarded his plane, he stopped on the tarmac, repeated his lies about the 2020 election, which he insists at the right to challenge. by the way, that is true. he absolutely had the right to challenge it. he also had the right to lie about it. he just didn't have the right to conspire with other people to overturn the law.

the former president is now facing a total of 91 criminal charges, in four separate cases. a total of 19 defendants in this particular case in georgia including donald trump or indicted in this sweeping election interference case on august the 14th. so, far 12 of them have surrendered to georgia officials. the remaining seven have until noon eastern tomorrow to turn themselves, in after which the district attorney has said that she will sign arrest warrants for those who haven't shown themselves. with that, let's bring in our lead off panel, greg, a political reporter for the atlanta journal-constitution. katie benner, pulitzer prize -winning reporter for the new york times. harry lippman, former united states attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general. and former new york prosecutor and civil rights attorney with me here in studio, charles coleman. it is a moment to this unimportant a for everyone here. uniquely slow, for charles coleman. because as of three minutes and 30 seconds ago he is on another tour around the sun. it is your birthday.

so happy birthday sir. thank you for spending this moment with us. >> thank you sir. >> so let's start with, you donald trump said it is a wish hunt and it's a terrible day for america. you point out that in other places, if you attempt a coup, you often don't get a trial. >> right. >> this is actually an important day for process, justice, and democracy in america. >> donald trump can characterize today anyway he wants, to that's his right but the fact remains, ali, that this is an important day for american democracy. we are at a point where our public confidence in both the supreme court, as well as the federal courts, and then the trickle down effect from the public with lower courts that are an all-time low. so today was just not important, it was necessary. the public needed to see that the rules are the same for everyone. if we don't have public confidence in our institutions that are the bedrock of american democracy, that our democracy unravels. so, today was an imperative day for american democracy. we had all these conversations about the two party system and how important democracy is to

democrats versus republicans. the visual of donald trump, the former president of the united states of america having a mugshot and being held accountable for crimes that he is now accused of having committed was so important -- >> for which you will have a trial. >> correct, and have a trial in the jury of his peers, as the constitution allows to be heard and to be presented. >> because everybody says he keeps saying, i'm in assad, everybody knows. >> and to be clear, jack smith, and the doj have to do their job. unquestionably, there's no question about, it the burden of proof rests on them and that does not shift. but even, so for that to have occurred is the beginning of restoring that confidence. the public sort of faith in our system that are the bedrock of american democracy. >> you are gonna left to yourself, probably, because i think you're pretty soon gonna have enough for 24 hours covering this whole thing. but you know, what it's necessary. because it's complicated what's going on in georgia, some people have surrendered, some people not surrendered. a couple of people have asked who have not surrendered.

including mark meadows, that was struck down at about 4:30 this afternoon. the district attorney had, said if you don't surrender yourself by noon tomorrow there's going to be trouble. >> yes, there is 19 different defendants, there's 19 different moving. parts each of them have their own cases. and they're each following their own legal strategies. several codefendants, as you, say have already tried to remove their cases to the federal court. several have pursued their own motions. several have the release of one codefendant who is pushing ahead for a speedy trial motion. and to sever themselves from the other 19 codefendants, until we can see a trial in october of that defendant of kenneth chesebro, while the other contenders are still going forward. i keep on saying candidates because i'm used to talking about donald trump in the candidacy at the same time. ali? >> katie, to the very point to and i talked a while ago. and he made it a very important

point about the fact that, really, one of the unspoken things going on here is that there's no law enforcement agency, no judge that really wants to be responsible for actually putting donald trump in jail. while putting him in custody. do you think given what we've talked about, and given what we saw on the debate stage last night that his sort of defense team, or, both maybe in bolden at this point to continue to push the limit? as we've seen him do before? >> yes, to your point, last night on the debate stage we did not see any candidates really strongly come out to say what he had done was. wrong with the exception of mike pence who defense had actions on january six. it was definitely in a version of. that then, again, even tonight what we saw is that we saw the former president when he was booked, he had his mugshot taken and, really, no sooner had that happen the image was already on twitter with the statement from him, never surrender. it was a really interesting moment for me, for a couple of reasons. maybe too big. once one, it is just that shows it extremely defined.

and he's gonna start using the imagery of his own accusations against him. he's gonna try to find ways to use those to his advantage and he took that really strong image, already turning it into a means that he can use himself. and in fact what it is it's a photo of when it was accused of a crime. and i think it speaks to the clear debates that we're having, cameras in courtrooms, how images are used. what american people think of images. and when i was covering the technology industry, is what we talked about was how technology was quickly turning truth in a series of images and a series of videos. and a fight over them. because they are really invaluable. and we're seeing this happen already. this is just a little taste of what's to come when we see the cameras in the courtroom in georgia. and all of the photos, images, and statements and videos that are going to be coming and being produced by the four cases against the former president. >> while the trump super pac, supporting him say that we love cameras in. they're the things that we can

do. with it i mean tonight they're selling t-shirts, and all sorts of things with trump's mugshot on. it harry lippman, one of the things that to child just point is the judges, the various judges in this thing want to be very careful. there's all sorts of reasons, conditions, but on donald trump and how he supposed to conduct himself through this trial. the consequence of which would normally mean that you might actually end up being jailed. but you write in an op-ed, published in the los angeles times tonight that no one in the system wants that. like u.s. district tanya chutkan, overseeing the federal election inter variance case, the judge here that we're talking about is certainly aware of the ferocious blowback that would result from even briefly locking up the leading candidate for the republican nomination for president. how do you balance this harry? how do you balance the fact that he's a criminal defendant, four times over, with 91 different charges against him and the fact that you will monitor him. you will politicize him. you will play into his book of

which contrary. if you do. it how do you balance that? >> you are totally right. i mean i think it's up to him, in a word alley. he may well want for his own purposes to be a flaming jerk that would be the legal term. and just continually push on, them push on, them push on. them and they will come a point where there is a kind of incredible quality to this picture that you are showing. now this clench jawed, glowering, strange president as criminal accused in a similar way they will give him as much rogue as they can. but he may burn that much, and, more because he wants it in some, way either some strange psychopath-ology. or because he thinks it's actually to his advantage. and there will come a point where, if he dares, them there is really no option but to

actually call and say, mr. trump, next time you do you're going to jail. and the next time happens, and it goes to joe. >> i want to follow, you and talk to the two attorneys on the panel. do you get the sense that because there are 19 defendants and codefendants that are gonna be filing motions, we've already seen them file a motion around trying to get speedy trials moved up that donald trump's defense team may try to capitalize, that and sort of sit back and see who else is going to file a motion, and how they may be able to use that to their advantage in their overall delayed strategy. because there are so many different codefendants that they're gonna have different interest that they're gonna be trying to push. and allow donald trump to sort of take the time that he may want to let those things play out, before making his next move. >> you know it is an excellent, point and by the way i apologize. it looks like i've got in pixelated tonight.

but in general, yes, but, the but is he is somewhat the passive observer of events. he couldn't stop mark meadows from the next day moving to remove, even though he would prefer 30 days. he couldn't stop ken chesbrough from looking to fall the speedy trial which is the last thing that he. once he couldn't stop the georgia elector, who today. said it was all trump's, team trump's doing. and therefore i should be able to get immunity. so i think that he is, in, part not the captain of the ship. now everyone is going in many different directions. there is nothing like actually being booked to sort of so really focus on your own self interest. and there comes a part from, trump in some ways so i agree generally. except for when he's looking at, in part is the hand that i

think is getting worse by the week. because people are naturally pointing fingers in the natural way to point is up. and he is at the top. >> greg, there are a lot of lawyers involved in. this on the screen there are a number of lawyers. one of them jen alice is smiling awful big in her mugshot. but trump happens to have himself a new lawyer. that is steve sadow. and this is kind of interesting because steve sadow has represented a lot of people who have come up against georgia's very specific and broad laws. tell me a bit about this. >> yes, well steve is a veteran criminal defense attorney. so it's not like trump went from a better criminal attorney to a novice. steve has expertise in high profile clients. a number of celebrity clients, and defendants over the years. and someone who is an expert in defending against rico charges. he was really good about

disentangling these cases and finding ways to form a common strategy with other codefendants. or trying to remove his clients from the bigger case. which is something that fani willis does not want to happen. she has tried to keep all these 19 codefendants in one big grouping, with the exception of kenneth, who is trying to sever himself off from the rest of the case. but steve stayed out in a very interesting moment to watch. >> there's a lot of talk about, that the idea that she would like to try this as one. case she built it as one case. ken chesbrough wants to peel himself off. donald trump wants the opposite of a speedy trial. he wants the thing to go as long as possible until after he becomes pressed again -- so that you could say you can't a president. but the question and maybe chesebro thinking here is that i forced to do a speedy, trump but she's not ready to go. >> that's exactly the strategy, the strategy is okay, you have

19 defendants and i'm going to push. this you're not gonna be ready to go so that's gonna immediately invoke the first delay. and donald trump is going to watch this, he's going to follow it and the other defendants are gonna do the same thing. if i'm donald trump's defense team, what i am trying to do as best as i can is get to the republican national convention. because i'm the presumptive nominee, and at that point what i am going to, do once i become the nominee is that i'm going to file a motion in federal court in south florida to say that hey, this was the first case that was filed by jack smith. i want this to be moved further out because now the election interference argument that i have been making has more teeth to, it i'm gonna make sure everything. tracks even if i, lose and i appeal i am hoping to get this case in front of the supreme court where there's a supermajority. and at that, point maybe they throw me a bone. at this point donald trump and his defense team, they have to be engaging in a strategy where they are trying to throw everything against the wall to see what sticks. while simultaneously allowing or hoping that someone else

makes it mistake that they could capitalize on. >> and that's the difference, if you end up with various trials, that's what ends up happening. >> katie benner, u.n.i., so many, weekends and mornings would talk about where the justice department, one where merrick garland was. and this was in the days before anyone knew jack smith's name. what is happening on that side? there has been a serious development in the jacks mitt kates. and that is not someone q, who had testified one way i've gotten themselves a new lawyer, that was not paid by donald, trump and it's not change their testimony or at least that's what the jacks mitt thomas told the judge in that case. >> yes, it's gonna be interesting to see what happens. and people start getting lawyers who are not paid for by the trump team. because we saw some of this happening during the january six hearings. and again the january six hearings were, lower it wasn't a criminal trial so it will be interesting to see if people stop being represented and

being paid for by donald trump, whether or not jack smith team is able to get more information out of, them information that helps. but again, keep in, mind this is so tricky. even if jack smith has an ironclad case, it really comes down to what the jury does and says at this point. the american people want to jack smith in the justice department to charge donald, trump and to obtain an indictment, who wanted fani willis to do. that will that is not done. it is not almost out of the hands of these prosecutors. they can do their, job they can present evidence that strong. but now they have two groups that are going to hold donald trump accountable that would be jurors, and will be american voters. and so that is now where we are. we're in a very intense legal process. up to a jury of his peers. and a very intense political process. and we're gonna start seeing them collide as we get closer and closer to election day. of course the prosecutors, in the justice department are cognitive to. this so they understand that they have to win.

there is a lot on the line for them. and if they, don't it is not just another case lost. it's a referendum on whether or not the justice department is confident, can do its, job and uphold the rule of law. >> her lippman, in the last case that the jack smith second indictment and then this indictment, in both cases they gave donald trump fairly specific warnings on what he can and cannot do and who he cannot and cannot intimidate, and threatened to do that kind of stuff. it doesn't look like he's fully followed. that he already talked about fani willis today in one of his posts. but tell me a little bit about. that because donald trump continues to say that aileen cannon, the mar-a-lago judge is a remarkable patriot and we need more judges like that ironically appointed by him. and continues to talk about tanya chutkan, and continues to talk about fani willis. so where do we see that going? donald trump scott a campaign. are there good people in the law? other bad people in the law? >> i think it's not clear.

to my, mind not everyone agrees with me, ali, i've seen him flinch this last. we he canceled his press conference. even today when he said i have done nothing wrong, he's said given what i believe, i think's lawyers had told. and you can't be telling these flat out fibs anymore. you've got to counter the terms of believe. and on the other, hand both because he's intemperate and because he really is, basically running the most bizarre legal strategy of. all which is to win the presidency. you don't know when held apart from the reservation. but i think that there is just -- these a human being. there is something about showing up at a decrepit jail, and being printed. and having your mugshot that is not just ignominious. but i think it's terrifying. and at a minimum i think that he is thinking it over and having some dividend in a way

that he's basically never had in his life. >> charles, i have to ask, you because you practice this as a civil rights lawyer. there are people who made a conscious decision to break the, law because they thought the law was unjust. and they knew that they were breaking the law. and they went to jail. many of them in america, mohammed gandhi, nelson mandela, and people like that have done that. donald trump says that he has a sincere belief that he won the election. >> does that matter? >> no one it doesn't matter because of the number of times that donald trump was told that he did not. and a number of people who informed, him in his inner circle who told him -- >> they were in a position to know? >> correct. at that point, it's willful denial and that is where he is going to lose that argument. i want to go back really quickly to what harry was talking about. i do agree that donald trump has begun to flinch by pushing the boundaries. but i do expect that he's going to continue to put pressure, so to speak. and one of the reasons for that

is ultimately if he is allowed to do it for as long as he's allowed to do it he maintains some control over the narrative. if he is punished, which katie benner has already talked about, and harry's already talked about which, some, what most people loathe to do. if it happens it becomes a distraction. it becomes something that he could sort of push even further. and also spin that narrative as well. so it becomes a win, win for him to push the limits without necessarily going overtly over that line. he has flinched. but i still expect him to try and push those boundaries and see how far he gets. >> there is no particular cause to him. because if he gets, arrested if we see donald trump because he tweeted something about, someone he gets to put it on t-shirts, and start fundraising. >> the reason, money become smarter and he also gets to appeal. and now you need to recuse this judge or this judge needs to be removed from the case. and so now you create another distraction for delay, and if he's not punished for, it then he continued to control the narrative.

so i still expect that he's going to push the limits here even as he's been warned. >> i've been up 22 minutes into my birthday, but i've never been this articulate. >> good to see you sir. >> our panel is sticking around. we're gonna continue our breaking news coverage of the surrender of donald trump in georgia, right after this break. thi break. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪

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breaking news tonight that donald trump has been released after being booked at the fulton county jail. -- we have all of you still with. us so, greg i want to go back to the scene in atlanta. it was a big, deal donald trump, and fani willis gave them the privilege of turning themselves in by a certain time. tomorrow at noon. most have, seven haven't. yet we probably will let it happen over the course of tonight, or by tomorrow morning. donald trump chose 7:30, pm eastern time to do it tonight. it was quite a scene. he went in, there he walked, that made a little statement, got on his plane left. tell me about the process known. georgia what happened? putting aside the kenneth chesebro asking for a speedy trial. what happened? >> well fani willis has set out on her schedule, the trial beginning in march, and the arraignment that she would set for september 5th. so the week of september 5th. and the judge, judge mcafee still hasn't signed off on her

plans and march seen as extraordinary lay quickly to begin a trial. most legal experts don't expect did that soon. but at the same time there still is a possibility and fani willis wants to get this trial going. it's been two plus, years she wouldn't brought this indictment if she wasn't ready for all these different wrinkles that have already come up. so as we, saw with kenneth chesebro's case she will call the bluff. they want a speedy trial she will bring a speedy trial. and so, in this case we could expect her to already be ready to bring donald trump's trial if the judge decides to move this in an expedited fashion. >> charles coleman, it's not unheard of but harry lippman made a reference to donald trump's campaign strategy. >> right. >> that running for president, and possibly becoming president again is probably his best strategy right now. probably the safest strategy. he's facing 91 charges in four different cases at the moment. that's a lot to bet on.

so he's got a better strategy and that is winning the republican nomination. last night's debate ties into a strategy. >> absolutely ali. i think you have to keep in mind that donald trump the defendant, and donald trump the candidate. and in a dynamic environment he does not have the space to pivot in both at the same time. so what we saw last night, pretty much ensures for him, i don't have a serious contender. i am more likely than not going to be the republican nominee. and so this is a space that i don't have to worry about because if you look at the numbers today, no one gained any real traction. anything that changed the numbers were nominal at best. and so he knows that i've got the party locked in my pocket. and so now i could focus on being a defendant and the rest of the stuff that i would need to normally focus on as a candidate, i just have to maintain the status quo. that's very, very important for, him and the legal strategy it is not clear how much his defense team is talking to his campaign. but it is clear that they have to coordinate their strategy on some level. because those things have to be

consistent. the fact that he doesn't have a real challenge or that republican field is a very big plus for him to be able to be focused on this defense in terms of his legal matter. >> katie benner, i do want to ask you about mark meadows. this is a guy whose name hardly showed up in jack smith's indictment for the election of overturning stuff. there was one reference to it. it was a bot mark battles in georgia. and it was actually a pretty positive reference. now, we have a mugshot of mark meadows. mark meadows,, there is some speculation that he has been fully cooperating. he certainly cooperated with some instances with the january six committee. where do you think mark meadows is in all of this? >> i think that mark meadows is gonna want to figure out how you can possibly get this case moved from georgia to a federal court. it will advantage, in georgia is a really dangerous place for him to be, in his own legal exposure. and the, true you do see mark meadows show up around january six but in minimal fashion. and my sense from that is that

mark meadows came, he answered the questions he needed to answer and he didn't really double vote much. more i know there's a lot of people who feel like he fully cooperated. he gave up tons of information on donald trump. and i think that if that had happened, we would've seen a little bit more of it in the speaking indictment. jack smith has put up two indictments. he's put in every bit and every segment of information he could find in this indictments. you had a superseding indictment, in florida, around the documents case to show. even more evidence to make a stronger case to the american people for why he's bringing what he would think of as a righteous prosecution. that is not with this january six indictment reads like. you do not see any with that mark meadows went in and spoke to jack smith, and his people and, said these are all the things that the president was thinking. i know that donald trump knew that what he was doing was wrong. you really don't get that sense? it could also just be because mark meadows doesn't have that

information. but i don't see that in this indictment. and i know a lot of people who come on msnbc would disagree with me. but, just i think that what we see from john smith this that he has the information. he can make a convincing, case publicly speaking through his court filings and he doesn't. >> you know, harry, lost in all of this conversation about the number of indictments that donald trump is already facing is the fact that jack smith still has pending investigation among farther things that donald trump could be indicted for. i want to ask, you do you think that it is likely that we will see more from jack smith? and if so, how does that complicate what donald trump is already dealing with on a legal front? >> everything this complicates. nothing simplifies for trump. i agree. and i do think he made a big deal. much of what he did kind of took the baton from the january six committee. but he was independently interested, and clear in the fundraising piece. he had people in the grand jury. nothing has happened with that.

yet and i think that could well be a separate crime that we will see. but i think he's really focused on this clean, relatively simple -- i just want to say i am 100% with katie -- they would think differently. but what it means for wright is that the stakes are huge for his efforts not to remove. because otherwise he would make it. he's got nothing that is already stitched up in georgia. monday, there is a hearing, charles and ali, and it's where they say that evidentiary hearing, he's gotta come forward with evidence. i don't see how he takes the stand and the cross-examination could be brutal. and then he stuck with. it on the other hand he's got a proper case for why he was acting as chief of staff. and that is going to be both dramatic but also pivotal. because if he loses that, one it just as katie.

said he's back in the georgia suit. and it is big, big trouble. >> i'm gonna need a comment from a couple of you on all of. this and we just got an interview in that david gutierrez conducted with the bondsman. the guy that i didn't really know how this all works. but donald trump worked through a prominent georgia bill bondsman in order to post the 200,000 dollar bond that was required. let's listen to this this is just coming to us. >> it's a historical experience. one that i've never experienced before and one that i probably won't experience again in my life. very, serious an experience that we had to get it done right. and i think we did. >> do you ever think that this defendant might skip ahead? >> absolutely not. no shot of that. i think that this is probably the most secure bond that i have ever executed in my entire career. >> can you give me some explanation on this? charles he posted 10%, by the, way he hasn't been paying for most of his legal fees.

but this was him who posted. this is what does any of that mean to you? this guy by the way, is pretty famous. it's charles shaw. >> it's sobering and it's sobering because what you have to understand, ali, is near any courthouse in america within the -- >> there was always a bills bondsman and the idea that you have a former president of the united states of america walking into a bill bondsman's office and put down $20,000 to pay bail because he has been indicted is just surreal. it's surreal but he also again goes back to the point that fani willis and her prosecution of this case is proceeding as she would with any other defendant in fulton county. in the state of georgia. and that's what supposed to happen. that's what our system says, that's what we're seeing take place. it is, however extremely surreal and very sobering. >> charles, good to see you, thank you, greg take better care of harry lippman. thank you all for joining. us and, again happy birthday to my friend charles. our breaking news coverage of the surrender of donald trump continues after this.

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shop your favorite brand sporting the monopoly tag for unlimited game tickets and get ready to win at lucky! donald trump said down interview, with tucker carlson is raising alarm for many reasons. one in particular. political violence, the former president suggested that we could see more of it in the weeks and months to. come and ask for their points out, the political violence is at a tyus level since the 1970s. let's discuss it with the former fbi, watson, who's also a consultant for counterterrorism division.

national security analyst, clint, donald trump did it with donald trump the way he often does it but with the exception -- he sort of rather than calls for violent suggested that there may be violent. and people are feeling this, way that there is a frustration amongst people. and it makes it sound like he sort of channeling what people actually feel. what's the line between that encouraging the type of violence that donald trump is talking about? >> i think that the big transition that we've seen, ali, in the past that if you just rewind to 2020 we saw the picking of targets, location, demonizing of individuals and that's the catalyst that starts to move this from simply online talk to in-person action. and vocalization of violence. i think the key thing of when we look back, now january six and what we were already focused on but in the months leading up to that there were several incidents and

everything from polling places to attacks on potential candidates from one party or another that were indicative of that ramping up to a major mobilization of violence. and so when you start, hear this speech, that's usually the leading indicator. there couldn't be violence. it could be wild. we remember those going back three, to four years ago and if they're starting to be a, focus a time, and a, place go here and go to this location, go at this time and go after this person. that's what i think we all really need to raise our tentacles and get really worried about what might be coming. >> the problem of cross, is there's nothing about. this the entire world started on the basis of. this the insinuations all over the place. through history we have had dictators and authoritarianism's who done this. it happens all the time. people are not immune to hearing the subjective language. and acting on. it's so what do you do about this? you were the fbi you know it takes a lot to turn the ship and focus on different types of

threats. but it's not the same as i.s.i.s. or something like that. this is internal. this is us. what do you do about it? >> a couple of things that are kicking out already when we watch how the court cases go and there has been talks of violence. but what we have seen, the fbi has been successful. we've seen in recent, weeks we've identified suspects threatening violence online. and interjecting that person. sadly, that led to an actual shooting of an individual in utah. but you've seen other people arrested, or at least confronted about their violin speech. but this would be a little bit different as well. because when the post january six world where many of the individuals, particularly the groups like the proud boys and the oath keepers have been indicted on a massive conspiracy charges. on violent charges. that are going to lead to a lot of jail time. and then you look at the january six defendants and a lot of them i feel were doomed. they believe what they were.

doing and, now we're suffering the consequences. so there is a lesson that has been learned. i think the real threat, just looking over the horizon when you have many court cases, in different locations by many legal teams working in different directions was that it would be, what we, call acosta terrorism. we know what the target is. we just don't know who the attackers. and it's more likely not going to be alone attackers, are very small cells president in these trying mobilization that we tend to think back on january six when we're talking about this kind of thing. >> which i normally, say it's hard to, do but you pointed out the fbi has got it right if you times in the last couple of. weeks claim, good to see you, clinton what former fbi special agent and consultant to the fbi counter terrorism division. >> our breaking news coverage continues after this. continues after this i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults

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...from this highly... ...contagious virus. not all dangers come with warning labels. talk to your pharmacist or doctor... ...about getting vaccinated against rsv today. donald trey trump has now got a mugshot. and there's a primary, happen but it doesn't seem to matter because he stared the clear front door for the nomination. again with the mugshot, and for indictments facing 91 charges is so far ahead of its competitors. but the fact that it debated last night probably doesn't actually matter joining me now is a former republican congressman, of pennsylvania contributor in the bulwark for communications director for jim bush. it was, quaint, charlie that there were some moments that looked a little bit like policy discussions last night but it was largely made a relevant, by exchanges like. this and i want to play, for you an exchange between vague

ramaswamy. and mike pence. well mike, why don't you say, this join me and making a commitment. that on day, one you wouldn't pardon donald. trump and the only candidate on the stage. who encouraged him to say it. here's how we move our nation forward. by turning the page forward. that's exactly >> what i don't want to be convicted of these crimes. you >> can't be able to make a commitment, the same justice that was -- >> i was a politician that for. -- >> i've actually given pardons, and he usually follows a finding of guilt and contrition by the individual that's been conflicted. so the president the united states would give consideration pardon request. >> i mean charlie that was just a weird conversation but that is the problem right. where they're stuck in that discussion. >> yes and what's even more bizarre is that ramaswamy supposedly is running for president of the united states and you think he'd actually want to get in the, race take down the guy in the, lead and

that's donald. trump but instead he's doing donald trump's -- clearly, he has no intention of beating. trumpy simply hopes to be the vice president nominee. and had some position within the administration and what you. and so there was completely bizarre, i thought ramaswamy came off as kind of stormy, uninformed and a light weight because of that and the comments on foreign policy so i think that pence got the better of that little spat. >> which is saying, something to miller, you know charles coleman was saying that he made an interesting point. if donald trump is thinking, oh my, god i have four trials and i've got this campaign in this crazy primary calendar. last night made him realize not to worry too much about the primary calendar, at least for the, moment he can focus on this legal problems because that part seems relatively safe but no one really broke. it ramaswamy, we, thought was gonna be a little bit of a lightning. rod he was. i don't know if the world is substantially different today as a result. >> yes, seriously, i was

listening to that. and the congressman was saying that i don't know if ramaswamy is running against him. but was anyone on giving trump. it's kind of unclear to me, desantis just a little bit before i came on here was asked about the arrest, today in iowa and he just awkwardly said, well i'm just happy that i'm in the field of dreams instead. and it's, like, okay i. guess but you're losing by 20. points and your competitor was just arranged for the fourth time. 91 felony count and you know i worked on a bunch of campaigns. and speaking we look for any opportunity that we can to get an advantage against the leader of the, race the people who are beating us. so it doesn't seem like any of these guys are coming -- >> well let's talk about one of the three people in the race, who might be. and that's chris christie. who had tried to make the argument tonight. let's listen to, that charlie.

>> someone's got to stop normalizing this conduct. okay? and now, whether or not you believe that the criminal charges are right, or wrong the conduct is beneath the office of the president of the united states. >> and this is the great thing about this country. boeing is allowed but it doesn't change the truth. it doesn't change the truth. >> so charlie, we've got some applause. we got more booze than applause for. that doesn't make a difference? can chris christie and willard, anita hutchinson, and whoever else decides to help, them like mitt romney and liz cheney, can i make a difference? >> well, look, chris christie

was spot, on whether or not this makes a different remains to be seen. but chris christie is right about something here. this conduct of donald, trump whether it's criminal or not is deeply problematic for the swing and independent voters throughout the country who are looking at these four indictments and saying, hey, i'm not going to vote for that guy. even, though in the audience and among the most hard elements of the republican base they think that these indictments are wonderful. but in the world i come, from indictments are bad for your candidacy. if you have four of, them that four time source. so i think kristi's right is unacceptable and he's right. i'm hoping that the light comes on in the head of a lot of republican. voters something donald trump is a greater risk, to put at the top of the ticket. and when they see these trials occurring, i have to think that enough, voters are going to recognize that this is just a false, error and supporting a

guy like trump. >> it's a zero idea of whether this moves the needle at all for chris. kristie i probably guess. no but chris christie went wide for the conduct. we skip the whole discussion with a lot of republicans. saying, i don't think it criminally, think it's a witch hunt. and whatever it is and how about what we actually know that donald trump has done, not proven by court of law. the stuff that he's done in plain view, that he has done on twitter. that he has said to people. all of the things that we already. no let alone whether or not he is a criminal. that seems to be escaping a lot of trump support. and members of congress, by the way >> we'll look i think that i'm happy that christine made the argument on the merits. i think it's kind of the weakness of this electability argument and republican voters don't believe political experts when they say donald trump is unelectable because they already went against that device, one, time and were proven -- it's been three times since

then but then it's just the psychology of the republican voters. you have to make a case to them on the substance and the problem is that if it's only chris christie, appear it's like is that making through people with the credibility with the audience need to make that. and they're still line from my colleague who said today that 80%, 75% of the republican party is either would trump, desantis, or ramaswamy the three worst people on the. race and the two biggest trump imitators in. the race until it's, like one of the main competitors doesn't do it it's. nice it's a good exercise you could shed some people, off but it's hard to see how this changes the trajectory of the primary. >> yes, well maybe it has some thing on the republican party, and that would be a good thing if it does, positively. guys, good to see you as always they tell me i'm out of. time because i enjoy talking to you guys so much. charlie, and tim, electing at home for staying up extra lead for our special coverage. have yourselves a great night. elves a great night.

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