i think, just nailed it. because what, you know, the answer to the point i just made is what gestures said. the problem of what jim jordan is doing, of whatdoing, what mcg in trying to interfere in the carrying out of a judicial process at a state level, you know, and they're trying to do the hook with, oh, yeah, we're spending federal dollars, it's all b.s. oats just throwing crap at the wall to see what they can get to stick to do what? delay this process. people have already started to look at this and go you know what i don't like book bans, i don't like where we are heading on abortion, and that's going to be some of the signature the party is going to fail to get. >> well, we'll see how it pans

out. there's a lot more to come. thank you for your time tonight. now it's time for the "last word" with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex. thank you. we're going to cover all the legal news of the day of which there was a lot in addition to what happened to donald trump. >> lots and lots. i'll be watching. >> thank you, alex. we now have the first mug shot ever taken of a former president of the united states. here's donald trump's mug shot, which will instantly become the most famous mug shot in the history of photography. the mug shot of the 45th president of the united states will go from tomorrow's newspapers into our history books where the only presidential mug shot will live forever. american high school history students will be looking at that photograph for hundreds of

years. that mug shot will define the low point in the history of the american presidency. that mug shot will soon be everywhere in our lives. it will be on t-shirts, coffee mugs, napkins, toilet paper. this christmas you will see people give and receive gifts with that mug shot on them. artists will create their own ando warhol like renditions of that mug shot. we are still publishing biographies of abraham lincoln 158 years after he was assassinated. we will still be publishing biographies on donald trump 158 years from now and 300 years from now, and each of those books will contain that mug shot. that mug shot will eventually be seen by more people than any other picture of an american

president. most of us carry pictures of american presidents in our pockets every day, george washington on the $1 bill, abraham-lengthen lincoln on the $5 bill. people will see donald trump's mug shot more often than they will see those pictures of george washington and abraham lincoln that we carry in our pockets now. hundreds of years from now history students around the world will be staring at that mug shot, staring into the eyes of donald trump and wondering what they see. what they should see is fear. donald trump's fear of what can

happen in a country where no one is above the law. what they should see is stupidity, the stupidity that made donald trump a criminal defendant. and they should should see hatred. donald trump's hatred of the integrity of the institutions and the people who forced him to endure the humiliation of that mug shot. unlike his predecessor, president obama, and most other presidents, donald trump has not chosen a presidential portrait artist to participate his portrait like the many portraits of previous presidents that hang in the white house now. tonight in a snap a booking camera in fulton county, georgia, created donald trump's presidential portrait. donald trump's surrender to

district attorney fani willis for his arrest and booking today was not the most significant legal event of the day. 11:43 a.m., the georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger subpoenaed to appear at mark meadows hearing to remove his case to the federal court on monday. 12:45 p.m., mark meadows agreed to a $100,000 bond agreement. 12:56 p.m. district attorney willis filed a motion responding to defendant kenneth chesebro's request to a speedy trial by agreeing to a speedy trial for all 19 defendants and asking that that trial begin on october 23rd. 1:37 p.m., defendant jeffrey clark's bond was set at $100,000. 2:15 p.m., defendant mark

meadows surrendered, was arrested, booked, and his mug shot went public. 2:27 p.m., defendant harrison floyd was book at fulton county jail. 2:31 p.m., donald trump filed -- his new defense lawyer filed an advisory to the judge, the georgia judge saying he will oppose a speedy thiel and saying donald trump will make a motion to sever his case from defendant chesebro who has demanded a speedy trial. 4:15 p.m., georgia judge scott mcafee set a schedule for defendant chesebro's speedy trial with a trial date set to begin on the date suggested by district attorney willis, october 23rd. leeing off our discussion tonight quen keys let ming, former district attorney of neighboring decalb county, georgia.

amy lee copeland, a former georgia prosecutor, also with us two u.s. attorneys, joyce vance now a professor at the university alabama school of law and msnbc legal analyst, and hairy litman, former deputy assistant attorney general. he's a senior legala fairs analyst for the los angeles times. and gwen keys flemming let's begin with october 23rd. let's begin with the speedy trial situation we now find ourselves in, and i just want to begin by thank youing you for explaining to me the speedy trial rules of georgia many, many months ago, which in your explanation indicated the reason why district attorney willis was pausing or waiting as long as she did to bring the indictment because she knew she was going to be living under this speedy trial rule. what do you make of the latest developments today in the speedy trial motions and what the judge said about the speedy trial?

>> well, the law in georgia is very clear. when a defendant asks for a speedy trial or makes a motion or makes a demand, he or she must be tried either in the term of court when the motion is filed or in the succeeding term, the immediate next term. if they are not tried within that time frame, the case is automatically dismissed. and so by filing the motion at the end of this term, the term only goes through the end of august, that means the d.a. must try mr. chesebro by the end of october. and so what you saw her do was set a date and time that allowed them to strike a jury and join issue in before that deadline would come to pass. >> and what happens if the district attorney does not meet that speedy trial deadline? does the defendant -- does the

case against the defendant just get dismissed? >> the statute says the case is dismissed. >> joyce vance, so the georgia speedy trial law is a force to be reckoned and now we're going to see donald trump saying i want my case served from that. fani willis, it last thing she said today was, great, let's do all 19 of them on october 23rd. >> right. so donald trump and other defendants who want to sever will have to come into court and they'll have to explain to the judge why they're prejudiced if they're forced to go to trial on this early date with kenneth chesebro. usually that involves defendants talking about the kinds of evidence that can be introduced against codefendants and how that can prejudice them. and you can see how with 19 defendants that can quickly become a very messy situation. but as gwen says, the law is

very clear in georgia. once this demand is made, chesebro is entitled to his fast trial. that's very likely to take place on that time line unless he alters his request, and so it's very likely that we'll get the benefit of cameras in the courts in georgia and this early view of the evidence in this case. >> amy copeland, about defendant chesebro? can he change his mind about this speedy trial? >> i think, lawrence, he's in. i think he's asked for it, i think he's going to get it, and as i've been waiting to say all day the chese stands alone in this one. everyone has been trying to distance themself from mr. chesebro's election. >> what about the other defendants, what is the likelihood of them being able to sever themselves from that? >> so typically defendants indicted together get tried together.

that's what attorneys say, that's what judges say. it's interesting, though, to read judge mcafee's order because it seems to contemplate nobody else is going to be tried to chesebro. it's very clear at this time this omapplies to chesebro. these deadlines only apply to that defendant. i would entertain motions to sever or if he's not putting everyone else on this rocket docket right now, but that was notable for me in that order. >> harry litman, do you see any incentive for any other defendant in this case to be asking for a speedy trial? >> well, look, the general point here is the? sentives have now come apart, and there are chasms between different defendants. one georgia just moved tonight saying i get to remove my case because i was ordered to do what

i did by federal officials, meaning the trump campaign. there are, yes, strategic reasons you might want to go sooner rather than later. typically it's a kind of a chicken game saying do you have -- you're going to have to prove this and get it together very quickly, i don't think you can. but the general point that things are accelerating and kind of coming apart among the defendants in ways that are dangerous and ominous for trump is, i think, the big story now. >> harry, just go back over that point for a second because there was a pleading today. one of the false electors who's a criminal defendant in the case filed a pleading saying that his case should be moved to federal court because he was acting at the direction of the president of the united states. so there you have already donald trump codefendant pointing the

finger at donald trump saying he made me do it. >> exactly right. and you have mark meadows moving -- the first day for removal when trump would want to take longer. you have chesebro now doing exactly what trump does and want. everyone is being sobered up and quick by the experience of being booked, arrested, and being there. and now self-interests are coming to the fore as against the interest of the big mob boss here. >> gwen keyes flemming, to go back to the speedy trial because it's two months from now, october 23rd, what do you think the likelihood is of that first trial, at least one of them, that one defendant beginning on or about october 23rd? >> well, at this point there would have to be extraordinary circumstances for it not to start on that day. as amy said earlier, the

defendant always has the option of withdrawing his demand motion. it appears as though since it was filed so early this could be a strategic move, which he is certainly entitled to do as part of his defense, but this is not something that the d.a. could ask in a core continuance. if she did, she would risk dismissal of the case. if she did, it would seem the judge would entertain continuances. >> so how does the judge treat that if this defendant suddenly comes back in a court at some point saying i withdraw my motion for a speedy trial? does the judge just accept that and move -- and just throw him back in the pile with everybody else? >> usually, yes. and, again, it -- this is one of

those constitutional rights and statutory. they may after seeing discovery or perhaps as they are building their case they may realize they need more time. and so to protect due process and other rights, a judge would seriously consider a motion to withdraw by that same defendant. so really the timing is in mr. chesebro's hands along with his attorneys right now. >> and joyce, if you're looking for any kind of sign of confidence in a defendant, a motion for speedy trial is one of those indicators of confidence. >> you know, that's typically true, but in this case it may more have been an effort to catch fani willis out of school. prosecutors usually take a little bit of time after they indict a case to line up all their ducks for trial. and maybe mr. chesebro's attorneys thought they would be able to use that to their advantage here, but it looks really not to be the case.

willis was very quick to respond. she even moved up the date that chesebro asked for by a few days. that may reflect the reality. i think gwen was referring to this. she'll need to have time to strike a jury, get the jury in the box and start a case in time to avoid the penalty that georgia's speedy trial act would impose if she fails to meet that deadline. but what we've seen here i think regardless of what chesebro intended to elicit here is a remarkable show of strength by fani willis. all those months where people were complaining that she was taking too long to get this case indicted, we see what was going on during that time period. she was lining everything up. she's ready to go to trial. >> amy lee copeland, do the other defendants and the other defense counsel see an advantage to them in having at least one defendant, one other defendant get a speedy trial so that they

can see what the prosculator has and how the prosecutors intend to prosecute these cases? >> absolutely, lawrence. i suspect that if the trial goes forward on october 23rd you'll look at the audience and you'll see 18 attorneys with note pads and pens scribbling furiously as this unfolds. they'll definitely get an advantage both in -- they'll know what some of the evidence says based on the documents, but they'll really get to see it come to life. how convincing are these witnesses going to be? do they testify well? do they hold their heads high and go for it or stand there and have no idea what they're talking about? it will be invaluable for the other defendants to see what happens. harry litman, it seems to me it would be especially valuable for the other lawyers who are codefendants like rudolf giuliani because this first trial on october 23rd is from one of the lawyers, the lawyer who apparently originated the idea that the choice of the next

president of the united states is up to the vice president of the united states, but if you're giuliani and you're watching that prosecution and that jury comes back quickly or otherwise with a guilty verdict, what does that do to other defendants thinking about the question, which they still will be two months from now -- should i cooperate with the prosecution? should i flip? should i plead and flip and work with fani willis? >> it scares them. but it's certainly true remember all 19 here are charged with this vast rico enterprise. that might be one thing in chesebro's head. you can't isolate it just to me. you're going to have to put on much of your case. of course if things come back,

they've seen the sort of shock and awe, and then it may be too late by then but they'll be looking very, very much to sort of cut a deal. so it goes both ways. but generally chesebro as joyce said is kind of betting that willis can't get it together so quickly. willis had to make the response she did, i think. but if push comes to shove, she'll do it and the trial with chesebro is going to be a pretty big sprawling proceeding. >> gwen keyes flemming, if we do have one defendant out of a group of 19 codefendants sitting there in front of a jury, what will that trial jury know under georgia criminal procedure? what will they be allowed to know about the status of the other defendants? will they know that donald trump is actually a codefendant in

this case, and will they be wondering where are the other defendants? >> well, that's going to be an interesting question that i think will be resolved by a series of pretrial motions, what we call motions in limany which outline the guardrails in terms of how the d.a. and defense can operate in how they question witnesses, how they lay out their arguments. so if you have a motion in liminy from the defense team that bars or attempts to bar the d.a. from talking about the other codefendants, then that would make the case a little bit difficult for the prosecutor to go forward because obviously this is a rico case. it is a conspiracy case. it is something that by definition involves more than one person. and so i'd anticipate that she and her team would argue very vigorously that they not have to

go forward with one hand tied behind their back, that they be allowed to tell the whole story or as much of it as relates to mr. chesebro as possible. so, again, in terms of what the jury will hear, all of that will probably be at least attempted to be well-scripted by the parties outside of the jury's presence before they go forward. >> joyce vance, could that be part of defendant chesebro's strategy at the moment thinking that the only way or the best way for me to try to win is to be alone in that courtroom because i don't want the -- to be affected in a negative way by the other defendants, and i want the sympathy of the jury being there alone and let that jury wonder where all the other people who were part of this conspiracy. >> yeah, i think that's exactly right, lawrence. it could easily be his strategy, and it's not a bad strategy for

that single defendant to point his finger at the empty chairs and say it was these other people. i wasn't the president of the united states. i had no stake in the outcome of this election, i was simply giving legal advice. that might have worked for chesebro until we learned a couple of weeks ago that there's actually video of him at the capitol during the insurrection in the company of some of the folks who were pushing the big lie. and so while he may try this defense, the facts may not be very friendly to him here. he may have exceeded his role as a lawyer and become more of a participant, and that's something that willis will be able to use against him at trial. because she has this large rico claim, a lot of evidence will come in, and what evidence comes in at trial is ultimately left to the discretion of the trial judge. so as gwen says there'll be a lot of pretrial motions trying to define that. and then once those motions are

decided, chesebro will have that final moment where he'll have to decide am i going to trial or am i going to plead guilty? how do i feel about where we've ended up? >> amy lee copeland, any georgia defense attorney like yourself i'm sure would rise to object if the prosecution tried to introduce that photographic evidence that chesebro was at the capitol on january 6th since he was not included in any way in the charge against him. what might happen -- what might the ruling be on that evidence? >> lawrence, you look at whether something is inextricably intertwined with the actions themselves. georgia's criminal code or its evidence code follows the federal evidence code. and i fear for mr. chesebro's south korea it may very well be part of the scheme. it might be part of it. it might be something that you

can't untangle. i don't think that criminal cases are like a fine wine. they do not get better with agech and i remember reading a few days ago mr. trump's prior attorney said at a press conference or said to the media that mr. trump was simply relying on advice from his attorneys. you see that in mr. still's removal motion. so part of me wonders if mr. chooets bro is trying to get out in front of all that. maybe he reads the writing on the wall that at some point everyone is going to start turning and pointing fingers at him. the footage doesn't help him, but the language he used in the e-mails of december 2020 doesn't either. the best way it do is try to disrupt the electoral college. this isn't good for him, and perhaps he's just trying to get out before everyone starts looking at him. >> har elitman, that brings us back to your first point, which is the fingers being pointed at each other among the

codefendants. so amy lee copeland raises the very important point of who's donald trump going to point the finger at? well, he's basically said publicly i'm going to point the finger at every single lawyer who's a codefendant in this case. i'm going to say they told me i could do it. >> i think that's right. and chesebro and the others realize that's the point, so i agree with gwen and others. defendants often want to sever cases, and they want to be able to say it's the people who aren't here who did it. it's not necessarily easy, and i think this speedy trial motion really can be thought of as sort of de facto way to sever his case. what he really got, yes, he's got to roll the dice because she may say, okay, we'll see you october 23rd. but he gets to be on his own, he gets to be first, he gets to tell his storych and his story he's sort of in the background

feeding some information. yes, that one memo which figures also in jack smith's indictment as a smart departure is going to be tough, but he gets to tell his story without others dirt yg him up. he thinks that's his best shot. >> all right, we're going to squeeze in a quick commercial break, what i think is the first commercial break of this network of this evening. the crew is very grateful for that. everyone, stay with us. there's so much legal ground to cover just today. we'll be right back. h legal gro cover just today we'll be right back. okay. i'll work on that. save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. there is a better way to manage diabetes.

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duckduckgo comes with a built in engine like google, but it's pri and doesn't spy on your searches and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooki and creepy ads that follow you a from google and other companies. and there's no catch. it's free. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you around showing the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. we're back with our team of former state and federal prosecutors, gwen keyes flemming, amy lee copeland, joyce vance, harry litman.

and i said at the outset of this program tonight that there would be t-shirts with donald trump's mug shot on them, and of course donald trump is the first to be selling those t-shirts tonight for $34. he has sent out a solicitation to sell those t-shirts to the most gullible political contributors in the history of political contributions in america. donald trump said a few words about what he experienced in atlanta just a few minutes ago, and of course he lied. >> there was tremendous crowds in atlanta. they were so friendly, so friendly. but this is radical left district attorney as we have in new york and as we have in all the other places. >> just note to the audience if you're wondering where our video is of the tremendous crowds, the video doesn't exist because the tremendous crowds did not exist.

gwen keyes flemming, we are entering the space of where donald trump has to live under a multiple set of conditions about what he can and cannot say publicly, who he can and cannot talk to. in the georgia case there's a condition that he cannot talk about the facts in the case. that's the phrase used in the condition. cannot talk about the facts in the case to any codefendant. right after that condition was imposed on rudolf giuliani and donald trump, donald trump announced a fund-raiser that he will participate in off giuliani's legal fees where they will be together and speaking together yesterday after he was arrested and booked. rudolf giuliani said i spoke to the president today. so they can talk to each other. they're just not supposed to talk about the facts of the case

directly or indirectly according to the conditions. that seems like an impossible condition to actually enforce because of course these codefendants could secretly talk to each other about the facts of the case and there's no way the court would -- >> so it's an important condition. all of them are, and i would guess that each of the defendants' counsel has talked to them very candidly about the risks of not following the conditions of bond. again, bond is a promise to abide by certain rules of the court so you can stay out of jail. if you break those rules, then usually a district attorney will try to have your bond revoked. and so if there is evidence or anything probative of those conditions being violated, then

both parties would risk the possibility that the d.a. would seek to have bonds revoked. obviously that would be another hearing, and so i think it can be done, but i think it's going to be -- going to take due care to make sure that the lines are respected and not crossed because crossing them would have some very serious consequences. >> and joyce vance, he's under similar behavioral constraints in the washington, d.c. case with jack smith as the special prosecutor in that case, but donald trump has never indicated that he has the slightest respect for anything like the kinds of conditions they're imposing on him. >> no, he never has. he's continued to make comments that are right on the border, threatening witnesses, making comments about the judge. you know, this is behavior that he's displayed throughout his entire presidency, so it's no

surprise that he's been unable to restrain himself so far. i think, lawrence, this first tweet we've seen from trump since right around the time of january 6th tonight is remarkable because it's so very vanilla. it's not the typical trump sort of social media outrage full of this sort of just desire to condemn people, almost to put a target on their back. he always has plausible deniability when he does these things, but we know exactly what he means. and this tweet tonight suggests prams he has listened to what his lawyers have said, that he appreciates that there are consequences because as gwen says there are real consequences even for a presidential candidate who goes too far. judges, courts will give him a lot of latitude to conduct his campaign, but ultimately he remains on bond pending trial at the pleasure of the court. and if he displeases the court

in a serious way, he may well find that bond can be revoked and additional conditions can be imposed on him if he wants it stay out of jail pending trial. i think the control room has the tweet. if so, let's put it up so the audience can see what joyce is talking about in terms of it being vanilla for donald trump. he just puts this mug shot out there as if he's proud of it, and he just says election interference, then he says never surrender, and that's it. so that is a very good point, amy lee copeland, that -- that that's as far as he went tonight. is that very simple thing, of course it is his first tweet since he was banned from twittermism i think tonight he was trying to go for some sort of record on twitter. but amy lee copeland, how strict do you expect judge mcafee to be

in the supervision of those conditions? >> it's going to be difficult for any judge dealing with the former president of the united states, but there will come a point when the judge isn't going to take it anymore. i was reading about mr. trump's other troubles. how did other judges handle situations like this? because he's a person who seems incapable of not talking to people, of not putting out what he's saying on social media. i did read in the course of the trump organization's financial records subpoena that the judge in new york state court imposed a civil contempt find on the organization of $10,000 a day until the organization complied and eventually got up to $100,000 of sanctions. it may be something to explore not when mr. trump does this -- i'm sorry, not if mr. trump does

this but when he does it. i think we're all expecting these bond conditions to be breached. >> harry litman, how do you see the federal judges involved with certainly the fact judge cannon in florida we can expect to be extremely lenient about any of these issues. but judge chutkan in washington, d.c. in jack smith's case there, she has a set of conditions to enforce, too. >> she does and they are similar. and i think it's clear she doesn't -- nobody really wants to be in the position of ordering him to jail, but look at that mug shot, lawrence. it would have seemed impossible or at least implausible a few weeks ago, and it happened. and the point that ms. copeland just made the judges will say the next time, mr. trump. and by the way, it's one thing

to make borderline questions. it's a comment another actually to have a straightforward violation speaking with a witness that will make it harsher. but i think it was important people thought maybe just as spectators when the first hearing occurred before judge chutkan, there are many other members of the court there including the chief judge. i think that court is going to have a certain solidarity, and she's going to have counselors and people with her to sort of as one, the court's prestige and authority is on the line. i think she will forestall as much as she can, but the time will come where there's literally no other choice. and just as we see a mug shot that we might have never believed we would, we might see the jail door clanking behind him for a couple of days. >> joining our discussion now is georgia state representative

tanya miller. she's a former fulton county district attorney and a former federal prosecutor. tell us what you saw today in the way of fani willis and fulton county process this arrest, the first arrest in history there of a former president of the united states. >> well, i can tell you, lawrence, that the former president probably was processed in and out of the fulton jail faster than any person i've ever seen in my 20 years of practicing law in this jurisdiction. i think there was a lot of coordination obviously so for how to do this in a manner that is safe and efficient. i think we saw the best of professionals at the fulton county jails and our law enforcement partners who secured the scene. there were several roads that were shutdown so that the former president could matriculate to the jail without much fuss and

safety for him and other folks involved. he was in and out in what 20 minutes? so i think that is a testament to our county being on high alert, our representatives being prepared and communicating with each other, and trying to tamp down -- tamper down this circus atmosphere and really just conduct the business of engaging in a criminal prosecution and treating this president as best we can like we would any other defendant being brought before the court. >> with your experience, representative miller, as a former district attorney in fulton county, when you saw defendant chesebro file his speedy trial motion i think yesterday -- it's all happening so fast -- i imagine you anticipated what district attorney willis' response would be. was her response what you anticipated? >> absolutely, lawrence. look, when i was a prosecutor in fulton county alongside madam

d.a. one of our mottos is the state is already ready, and that's for our run of the mill cases. you better believe that all this time as your guests have already pointed out, that this office has been investigating this case, has been spent organizing it and preparing it for trial. this isn't fani willis' first rodeo. she has done several high profile cases. she tried one of the longest cases in georgia state history. she understands how to move a big case through the system, so i would guess that even before they indicted this case, they were prepared with that schedule. they understand all contingencies and ready for those contingencies. not surprised at all by her response. >> so it's not every day that a prominent defendant switches defense counsel on basically the very day of his arrest after a 2 1/2-year investigation that he knew about. donald trump's new georgia

defense lawyer is steve -- i don't know if you had any experience with him as district attorney yourself, but what did you make representative miller of that changing of attorneys right at that last minute before the arrest? >> i think that that could mean a lot of things. i won't speculate about what was going on in terms of the relationship between mr. trump and drew fenly who was his first defense attorney. i will say this about both drew finally and steve, they are both two of the most experienced criminal defense lawyers in this jurisdiction. it's somewhat a pot and a kettle if you're just talking about their experience and their abilities in this jurisdiction and in a courtroom. perhaps there were some personality conflicts. we don't know. that's sheer speculation. we know there were some comments about him, his feelings about some of the president's politics and his ability to separate that

in doing his job as a defense lawyer. so i guess we'll see. i know that mr. finally does not like to try his cases in the media. he will not be a good defense lawyer for you, if you want to do it reality tv star style. he is focused on what needs to be done in a courtroom and perhaps that was a sort of contention, and that's sheer speculation at this point. >> georgia representative and fulton county district attorney tanya miller, thank you so much for joining us with your invaluable perspective tonight. we really appreciate it. >> thanks, lawrence. >> and gwen keyes flemming, what your reaction to the sudden switch of criminal defense lawyers of donald trump? >> i would have to agree with representative miller. both of these gentlemen are outstanding defense lawyers. i tried cases against them as i was coming up in the fulton district attorney's office as a young prosecutor, and so i

anticipate that they will be able to launch a wholesome defense strategy. that is always a decision a defendant gets to make. it's not just about someone who understands the law. that relationship, a client-attorney relationship is usually a close one. and things really should click in order for the strategy to work to the defendant's benefit, so i'm not surprised that there are changes at this level. that happens often in cases where the stakes are so high, and i'm sure he'll get to speed quickly and we'll file some motions and we can no doubt expect to see more. >> amy lee copeland, when you see a switch like that in this situation, it might also indicate a change of mind or understanding of the defendant himself, some kind of

realization that, okay, this is real, this is heavier than i thought. i'm not happy, i need to get -- i want someone better. i mean certainly if donald trump was making the case, you never know whether the lawyer quit or donald trump fired him, but if it was donald trump making the change, donald trump has to believe he's upgrading. >> that would be, i think, a fair inference, but i agree with what gwen and the representative said. they're both stellar. sometimes the break between the investigation and indictment is an actual break for people to change defense attorneys. sometimes i think there may be some concern if you represented someone during an investigation and you didn't successfully prevent an indictment that perhaps the criminal defendant blames the attorney about that. i'm just not sure. my gut reaction is that perhaps mr. finally, too, told mr. trump something he simply didn't want to hear or didn't like. but i know steve sadow by

reputation and he's a powerhouse, and i know he'll talk honestly to his client, so it's tough to know exactly what happened. >> joyce vance, we have seen the other criminal defense lawyers representing donald trump have no control of their client. is jack smith deranged, and he refused to answer the question. and so the question of how these lawyers all interact with donald trump also includes another question how they interact with each other. and is this case separate enough from say the documents case, that there doesn't need to be interaction there, separate enough from manhattan so there doesn't have to be interaction there? it clearly is not separate from the washington, d.c. case that

jack smith has brought, and what kind of interaction does the georgia criminal defense lawyer have to have with the team in washington? >> it's a really interesting question, and it sort of brings the choice of steve saddow to helm and this defense in georgia into focus because he's the kind of lawyer who's been around for a long time. he's been doing this since decades ago. he has handled a lot of complicated cases. he's involved in another rico prosecution on going in georgia, so he'll likely have pre-existing relationships with some of these other lawyer and an ability to interface. and a way they may have to is they begin to realize there's an overlap of witnesses and something important to criminal defendants is understanding where there might be inconsistencies in witness statements that can be exploited. so there's a lot of fertile

territory there for lawyers representing mr. trump to work together. but trump comes to this new legal relationship as a very different defendant, lawrence. he's no longer the president of the united states. he's no longer someone who's never been indicted. we've seen so many of trump's lawyers run into problems include those who now stand as his codefendants. steve saddow i think will set a very different system of rules for his client, and he'll make the claim that he will represent him for as long as he abides by the conditions of his bond and that he'll be honest with him as he discusses the risks involved in going to trial. but something i know about steve having ironically tried a dixie mafia case against him is he's not afraid to go to trial. even when it's a tough case, when it's an uphill battle, it's the kind of lawyer who will go to trial, he'll try to exploit the missteps of the government, the technical mistakes that can

give his client an advantage. and he will be unafraid to vigorously represent his client. >> harry litman, a lot of focus on donald trump's criminal defense trial lawyers, but we may be a year or so away from # donald trump's appeal lawyers being the most important lawyers in his life. >> i do want to go back to saddow. he's a strong lawyer, there's no doubt about it. but i would have a slightly different take. i do think we're seeing trump getting nervous. the plain vanilla statement that joyce is talking about, he's begun to actually cushion his statements in terms of i believe we have won rather than outright lying. he canceled the monday press conference. and, look, however glowering and tight jawed he looks in that

picture, i think he's scared. and that kind of change, yes he's erratic, but i think it also shows he's really worried about what kind of trial counsel he will have. your point, though, is extremely well-taken because under any stereo people are worried about finishing by november. there's no scenario in which any case has run through appeals by november 2024. and if he becomes president that means at least federal cases he can just make stand down. so the best hope is for a trial to be completed and a jury verdict, but things can go to appeal all the way to the u.s. supreme court. >> gwen keyes flemming, what is a rough timetable for appeal for a case like this in georgia leaving out the question of whether the appeal tries to reach outside of georgia to the united states supreme court? what would that appeals timetable look like?

>> again, i think with the speedy trial demand on the docket, the judges of the court of appeals or the justices of the supreme court will try to rule as quickly as possible. i certainly think you are trying to see that from the federal level with judge jones, and so, again, i think now we have a speedy trial demand that is going to force all parties or at least encourage all parties to come to decisions quickly, so it's really hard to say how long things may take. >> joyce vance, the speedy trial issue is so fascinating to juxtapose to the trump lawyers saying we're going to be getting this massive amount of discovery that we need a very long time to study. one would think that chesebro needs time to study that same pile of discovery material. is it possible that down the road there could be discovery

that emerges after chesebro's trial that is actually relevant to it? >> so it's an interesting question, and it's a risk that gets run in every case. something that prosecutors are obligated to do is to turn over to defendants anything that could be exculpatory, anything that could help a defendant establish that they're not guilty. and prosecutors also have an obligation to turn over evidence that involves the voracity, the truthfulness of witnesses. a failure by prosecutors to do that can lead to reversal of the case downstream, so that's something that everyone involved in these sorts of cases takes very seriously. as to other evidence you know it seems likely willis has used her grand jury and her time very thoughtfully to compile the evidence gnat she intends to put on at trial. and so you do from time to time see a defendant come forward

after the fact and says, look, there's evidence here through no fault of anyone's was not known at the time i was tried but it establishes i'm not guilty. they make a claim of actual innocence and try to have their conviction overturned on that point. that's extraordinarily rare, very unlikely to happen here where an investigative grand jury has exhaustibly spoken to witnesses. i suspect willis will do what we saw jack smith do in the federal system. rather than having piecemeal discovery, she'll have a passage ready and turning over that defendant shortly after donald trump's arraigned. >> do you think donald trump's defense lawyers want to see a speedy trial for kenneth chesebro? >> i think it will help them. i don't think it'll be terribly bad for them especially if he gets convicted.

if he can say, listen, i listened to this guy and he's been convicted by a jury, and clearly this a terrible advice, but there's that old saying they live in interesting times, and here we are. this is just unprecedented. i do think one of the things to go in on what joyce was saying and steve said about the other attorneys, it'll be nice to have a sounding board because no one knows much about this because, fortunately we've made it through 44 presidents without this ever happening, so this will be a real benefit of having another counsel to talk to. >> amy lee copeland, gwen keyes flemming, joyce vance, harry litman, thank you all for joining us on this important night. we really appreciate it. we'll be right back. night. we really appreciate it. we'll be right back.

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you are looking at inmate number p001135809, otherwise known as donald trump. plus who won and who lost in the first republican presidential debate? we'll go through the latest polling. also ahead vladimir putin breaks his silence, that on the death of a long time ally who led a brief rebellion on the russian president's leadership this