>> thanks for joining us tonight. and look, by now you have seen this. you can now get this on a shirt. you can get it on a poster. you can get it on a mug, you can get it on a beer cozy, if that's what you want. donald trump's presidential campaign is all in, fundraising off of his arrest in fulton county georgia, with brand-new, yes, mugshot merch. each item features the man's slogan, never surrender, under a picture of the 45th president, literally surrendering to authorities. you cannot make this up.

we are just 24 hours out from that historic image being released to the public for the first time. but a lot has happened in those 24 hours. as of this morning, all 19 codefendants in the georgia case have surrendered to authorities in fulton county. 18 of those 19 codefendants have been released awaiting trial. one is still in jail, harrison floyd was one of the people allegedly involved in a plot to intimidate poll worker ruby freeman, when he turned himself in yesterday. mr. floyd was denied bond because of a prior charge. it turns out that earlier this year, harrison floyd allegedly attacked an fbi agent who was trying to serve him a grand jury subpoena in jack smith's federal elections investigation. well, today mr. floyd appeared remotely in a georgia courtroom, where he told a judge that he was not a flight risk, arguing that he flew in from out of state to turn himself in before donald trump did. the judge said that it would be up to another judge to set conditions for his release.

harrison floyd also told the court today that he cannot afford to pay for a lawyer. >> because you do not qualify for a public defender, you have the right to retain a lawyer of your choice. okay? >> i've spoken to several different attorneys before flying out here. the cost is typically between $40,000 to $100,000 just to retain a lawyer for these charges. and then they charge hourly, i cannot afford. i'm not going to put my family in that kind of debt. >> today, lawyers for another of trump's codefendants, former trump attorney and conspiracy theorist, sidney powell, filed a motion for a speedy trial. she effectively asked the court to make her trial happen sooner rather than later. in fact, she's actually the second codefendant in this case to ask for a speedy trial, after trump lawyer, kenneth chesebro. that would appear to put those

two codefendants in direct odds with other ones, including trump himself, who appears to be trying to delay this trial, and others, as long as possible. now, one of those codefendants pushing for delay is trump's former white house chief of staff, mark meadows, on monday though, fifth -- in federal court in atlanta that his case should be heard there instead of a georgia state court. monday will be a busy day for trump-related court cases, as there will also be a pre-trial hearing in special counsel jack smith's federal case against trump, for trying to overturn the election. during that hearing, we expect the judge, tanya chutkan, to officially set a date for that trial. which means that at this moment, we may be less than 72 hours away from knowing when donald trump will finally stand trial, and whether or not it will happen before the 2024 presidential election. today, trump's would be opponent in that race,

president biden, made a rare admission that he is keeping up with trump's legal woes. >> have you seen donald trump's mugshot yet? >> mister president -- >> i did see it on television. >> what did you think? >> handsome guy. wonderful guy. >> joining us now, aremelissa redmon, former prosecutor in the fulton county district attorney's office, and now a professor at the university of georgia school of law. we also have joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama. and barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. melissa, joyce, barb, it's great to have the three of you with us. melissa, let me start with you. talk to me about georgia's speedy trial law here. it's obviously now being front and center with what we've seen. what does it mean, that both sidney powell and kenneth chesebro want to move up their trial? and is there any benefit to them in doing that? >> right, i think that for these particular defendants, they have a lot at stake. they are both practicing

attorneys. you have to imagine that their livelihood is in limbo. based on these charges. they do have a reason to want to get them resolved as soon as possible. it also means that their case will be severed from the remaining codefendants who, although these two have requested a speedy trial, the judge can't force all 19 to go to trial in two months. those cases would be severed out. that also means that those cases, which are severed out, get kind of a sneak peek, right? at the evidence that is going to be presented in this case. although most of the evidence will be confined to the actions of these individuals, it is a rico case, so the state still has to make out the enterprise and the conspiracy. so some of that evidence will still come in in their trial. assuming -- and they may be tried together, since they both filed speedies. they both have to be tried before the beginning of november. i would assume that they would

both be tried together if possible. >> joyce, mark meadows says that his case should be moved to federal court because he was working as a federal official for trump in georgia. or on behalf of trump in the white house in georgia. but fani willis argues that his conduct was political in nature, and she points out that the hatch act prohibits federal officials from engaging in election activity. today mark meadows's attorney fired back claiming willis's hatch act for arguments are a red herring. what do you think? >> so this is a very nuanced legal argument. it's important to understand that the law here is very defendant friendly. this removal statute is often used to protect federal law enforcement officers who are charged with crimes in the state court based on their conduct, say when executing a search warrant, or making an arrest. so the law intends to protect federal officers. it's not a very good fit here

though. federal judge steve jones, we'll have the opportunity to look behind the curtain, a little bit, to make the determination as to whether meadows conduct was truly part of his job as the president's chief of staff. where willis has the better of the argument, is when she makes the point that the president doesn't play any role in individual vote counts in the states. meadows was far into that activity, offering, in one instance, whether or not it might be helpful to cobb county, whether it might be able to speed up its vote, if it had federal campaign dollars from the trump campaign involved in that effort. so that may well be this sort of -- argument that willis is trying to make, that folks in trump's orbit were going too far into the political arena to deserve the protection of the removal statute. >> barbara, all three of the indicted fake electors are trying to claim they should have their cases moved to federal court, because they say

they were acting at the direction of the president when they met. do those arguments have any merit to them? and could we possibly, just to elaborate a little bit more on joyce's point, could be possibly see somebody like mark meadows's case being moved to federal court, but not donald trump's or these fake electors? >> yes, the statute that allows removal to federal court requires that a person either be a federal officer, or someone acting under their direction. so to the extent that these fake electors say they were acting under the direction of the president, they fit that part of the statute. but that is not the only thing the statute provides. it also says if the person has to be acting within the scope of their authority. as joyce said, the scope of the authority's governing. executing the laws of the united states. when they are acting as campaigners, as politicians, then they are not acting within the scope of the authority. they weren't advancing any

interest of the united states. they were only advancing interest of donald trump as a candidate. so i think for the same reasons that mark meadows is going to have an uphill climb, i think these fake electors are going to have the same uphill climb. now, it could be that if some of them prevail, we see a split. some of the defendants are tried in federal court, others are tried in state court. but for ease of efficiency, it may be that a bulk of them go to federal court, then they will all go. i still think it's an uphill battle. especially in light of the fact that the defendant, mark meadows here, had the burden of persuading the judge that this case belongs in federal court. >> joyce, putting issues of removal to federal court aside for a moment, trump has indicated that he wants to sever his case from the other 18 codefendants. perhaps we will see that just as a result of what melissa was saying about the speedy trial motions from people like kenneth chesebro and sidney powell. do you see him succeeding with them being able to sever his trial from the others?

>> this will be part of a package argument, the court will have to take it up. 19 defendants, a rico charge, there are reasons of judicial economy for bringing as much of this case in one piece as possible. trump's strategy has always been a strategy of delay. his motion to sever is part of that ongoing strategy of pushing back the moment of accountability as far as possible. the judge will have to engage in a balance, ensuring that trump really does have adequate time to prepare. tonight, the district attorney advised defendants, lawyers, that she would need devices that could hold two terabytes of data for their initial poll of discovery. that is a lot of information for defense lawyers to go through. they are entitled to adequate time. but by the same moment the government is entitled to try its case in a speedy fashion. the judge will have to balance those two interests in deciding

questions of severability and time. >> melissa, trump lawyer jenna ellis, complained recently that she is not getting any support with her legal bills, despite trying an online campaign. now today, you saw harrison floyd in court saying he cannot afford a lawyer. how much does the inability of a defendant to pay for a lawyer factor in to a trial? does donald trump have to worry about codefendants flipping if he is not paying for their legal funds? >> i'm nervous that that is exactly the case. they would have an incentive to resolve their case as soon as possible. that may mean cooperating with the state. reaching some type of either a plea deal, or immunity deal in exchange for their testimony. i think it would be, in donald trump's best interest, to make sure that his codefendants are properly represented to head

that off. otherwise, i would think it would be a concern of his. or should be. >> barbara, on monday, a federal judge, tanya chutkan, as i mentioned earlier, it is expected to set a trial date for the federal elections case. it's obviously going to be a very important decision. prosecution has asked for a trial date in january, trump, he wants to delay this until 2026. obviously it's not going to be almost three years out. any predictions on what is a fair and speedy process? >> i don't know exactly what they will choose. but i think there are a few things to keep in mind. one is the volume of discovery, it's substantial, as joyce just said. in this case, it's similar in the federal case. that's something to think about. i think one of the other factors is the very crowded court calendar. donald trump has four pending indictments. so any date has to figure out within the calendar where these trials are going to fit in. none of them are going to be short. the election interference trial, i think, will probably take a couple of months to try. that is a factor. i think the other thing to keep

in mind is the first trial date is rarely the last. that is because of the organic nature of litigation. she may set a trial date for spring of 2024, or something along those lines. but things happen. motions get filed, defendants get sick. defendants fire their lawyers. oftentimes, the first trial date is not the last one. because of the reality of litigation that causes a judge to find what is called excludable, and set a new trial date. just because we have a trial date in early 2024 on monday, doesn't mean that's the one that's really going to stick. >> needless to say, monday will be a busy day on many fronts. barbara mcquade, joyce vance, melissa redmon, thank you so much to the three of you for making time for us tonight. greatly appreciated, as always. as i mentioned, we have a lot to get to tonight. like the eerie similarities between some of the alleged criminal conduct in georgia and this, the nixon directed burglary at the watergate hotel. plus, congressional republicans

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got his wish. a fourth criminal arrest. but as trump basks in the attention from his latest legal drama, house republicans are doing whatever they can to save him. hours before trump surrendered to authorities in atlanta, house judiciary chairman, jim jordan, opened an investigation of fulton county prosecutor, fani willis. in a letter to willis, jordan accused her of carrying out a politically motivated prosecution of donald trump. questioned whether she collaborated with the special counsel's office, jack smith, and demanded that willis turn over all documents in communications between her

office and federal officials, including anything related to the use of federal funds. now, this is a tactic republicans, specifically jim jordan, have used time and time again. it's not just him. earlier this week, house speaker, kevin mccarthy, said republicans might launch an impeachment inquiry into president biden if his administration doesn't hand over documents republicans have requested in their never-ending probe of the biden crime family. now according to mccarthy, that could happen in september when congress returns from congress. joining us now is congressman eric swalwell, from the great state of california. congressman swalwell, it is great to see you as always. thank you for making time for us. i've got to ask you about your house colleagues, they are doing it again, basically. they've launched an investigation. this time, into fulton county prosecutor, fani willis. i've got to say, it resembles the one they opened into manhattan d. a., alvin bragg, after trump was indicted in the hush money case here in new york city.

what do you make of this investigate the investigators tactic from your colleagues? >> maga republicans are jury tampering. that is what this is. they know that the goods have been acquired in the investigation that fani willis has put together. donald trump deserves equal protection over the law. but the justice system deserves better than republicans interfering in the judicial process. that is exactly what these guys are doing. by the way, ayman, this would be one thing if we didn't have other priorities in washington d. c., like funding the government in the next couple weeks. taking care of our troops. making sure benefits like social security, irs refunds, go out to people, all which could be put in limbo if they shut down the government. it seems this summer, the only thing they want to talk about is what they can do to defend donald trump in the myriad of cases that are stacking up

against him. >> you also have house speaker, kevin mccarthy, you just listed all these things that are on his plate. he's saying the chamber could start an impeachment inquiry against biden come september. how do you expect that to play out over the coming weeks, if those proceedings start? this is a guy who seems to be very distracted from the priorities of the american people in focusing on this. but how do you think this would even play out in the chamber? >> they don't even know who they want to impeach. this congress started with threats of impeaching secretary mayorkas, then it was fbi director christopher wray, then merrick garland. now joe biden. by the way, ayman, one day he sleepy joe, next day he's corrupt joe. i know people who are sleepy, i know people who are corrupt, i don't know anybody who's both. these guys just know that they are reflectively anti anything biden is doing. whether it's for the economy, whether it's for global security over ukraine. so it shows, in a clownish way, that they are behaving. this would be funny and entertaining if there wasn't so much at stake for the people that we'll represent.

>> let's talk about something a little bit more serious. as you mentioned, the first house republican -- the first thing house republicans have to do when they return from recess is basically to put all their attention in funding the government, to avert a government such shutdown. that doesn't look, at least right now with the way the freedom caucus is behaving, to be very promising. they are holding the stopgap bill hostage. so, as you mentioned, money for things like disaster relief and elsewhere could be held up until their political agenda is addressed. what do you say to that? >> that's right. storms are pounding the southeast, wildfires are hitting us across the country. of course, we saw what happened in maui. communities need government support that taxpayers have all paid into. that will be suspended, that will be cut off if republicans shut down the government. democrats will continue to be on the side of competence and community. we will flame that, especially as we go into the next election. that republicans continuously are on the side of chaos.

we will be ready to fund the government. that is our basic duty, to take care of the troops, take care of public safety. to take care of the health and education of the american people. republicans, again, they are just there to be the largest law firm in washington d. c., working every day on behalf of just one client, donald trump. >> speaking of, two days before surrendering in fulton county, trump attended a fund-raiser for january 6th defendants at his bedminster golf club. he did a similar fund-raiser in june. how do you read his willingness to support rioters as he argues in legal filings that he did nothing wrong? >> they were, if we're backing the blue until the blue stopped the coup. now they backed the coup. they are just reflectively, anything that hurts trump, they are the, again. the fbi raids donald trump's property, because he stole national security secrets, now we have to defund the fbi. that is how these guys work. it's not a core set of principles. but it is destructive to law and order in our communities when they want to take a wrecking ball to it, just to

defend one person. so, the best thing we can do as democrats, as i said, going into this election, is to just show competence. we will bring on board reasonable republicans, independents, and other democrats who may not be inspired to show up. if we show that we are just going to take care of the american people, do our core duties and contrast that with the chaos that these guys bring every single day. >> it's amazing how far republicans continue to lower the bar on the expectations of the american people. congressman eric swalwell, it's always a pleasure, sir, thank you so much for your time this evening. >> thank you. >> coming up this hour, the enduring grip of the man not in the room at the republican primary debate this week. despite the attacks you may have heard, some of the 2024 hopefuls lob at the gop front runner. but first, an ex watergate lawyer joins us to break down some of the parallels between that era and the georgia indictment against trump and his alleged coconspirators. stay with us. heading on a family trip? nah, sorry son, prices are crazy,

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president donald trump voluntarily surrendered last night at the fulton county jail, it was a wall-to-wall televised spectacle. his motorcade was followed,

like it was during oj simpson's white ford bronco chase, but when the first of trump's codefendants voluntary surrender this week, it was a very different story. there was almost no press attention at all. in fact, most people don't even remember who this person is. and the first person to surrender this week was this guy. scott hall. i know what you are thinking. who in the world is scott hall? well, he is an atlanta area bought -- bail bondsman. he's one of the three individuals charged as part of this indictment for their role in allegedly breaching the voting machines in coffee county georgia. of course, they were part of the group of trump supporters who the day after the january 6th attack on our capitol, allegedly broke into voting machines in coffee county, looking for what they thought would be smoking gun evidence of voter fraud. but for a couple of reasons, that whole plot has always felt a little goofy to anyone who actually looks at it in closer detail. number one, trump actually won coffee county by nearly 70% of the vote. number two, they did all of their alleged to election equipment breaching literally in front of a security camera. it wasn't exactly the most

effective break-in in american history. so why does this matter? well, fulton county d. a., fani willis, lays all of that out in her indictment. first off, the tech company that this group used to scan these voting machines was hired by trump lawyer, sidney powell. she was allegedly instrumental in orchestrating this plot. second off, just days before they allegedly breached the voting equipment in coffee county, d. a. willis writes that scott hall and trump's justice department lawyer, jeffrey clark, spoke on the phone for 63 minutes. a few days before that call, clark had tried to get the acting attorney general to sign a letter claiming the department of justice had found evidence of fraud that may have impacted the election results, particularly in georgia. when that attorney general wouldn't sign it, trump reportedly considered firing him and appointing jeffrey clark to be attorney general, so that he would do it instead. now, in the midst of all of that, jeffrey clark allegedly spent more than an hour on the

phone with this random bail bondsman in georgia that no one had ever heard of. so as much as the coffee county breach was a failure, it appears to have been a failure that was coordinated at the highest levels of the white house. and that, my friends, has echoes of another famously failed break-in from our nation 's history. >> the burglars broke through a fire escape drawer that led to the committee's offices. one of the suspects, james mccord, operates his own security company in washington. he was doing work for the republican national committee, and the committee to reelect president nixon. >> no one has proved that the republicans were replied to the break-in, but tomorrow the democrats are expected to file some sort of legal action against the gop anyway. >> now, it is easy to forget how poorly run the watergate break-in was. the tape they used to cover

locks, so doors wouldn't shut behind them led the building security straight to them. they had turned down the volume on their walkie talkies to be sneakier, but that meant they didn't actually hear when their lookout was warning them that the cops were actually coming. it turned out the whole thing wouldn't have mattered, even if it worked, because nixon won that year's election in a landslide anyway. when the house judiciary committee investigated this break in, they actually ended up being able to prove that these lousy criminals were working at the direction of the u.s. attorney general, and ultimately, richard nixon himself, proving that chain of command from an ill conceived and poorly executed break-in, to the president himself, is what finally got nixon to resign. one of the attorneys behind that house judiciary investigation is going to join me live, next.

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largely watergate scandal that history nine has largely forgotten. points for the world nine months before they broke in the watergate into the watergate hotel, the hotel of the three so-called three so-called white house white house plumbers got their start with plumbers got their start with a different breaking different break-in. white house acorn landing was sent to los angeles white house aide, gordon lady to spy on, was sent to los angeles to a spy on a psychiatrist's psychiatrist's office. office and you get your sense of how secretive to give a sense of how it was 14 lead 30 feet 90 and secretive it was, literally special shoes that made it look like he had a plan i target was the psychiatrist of the people that think i got particular work and rest of the white house i fired cia hired c i think the nationals to physically breakage wore a wig, carried a fake i.d., and again yells had special shoes that

made it for look like he had a limp. psychiatrist the plumbers target was the filing satire trist of the man who had cabinet leaked the pentagon papers,-winning rogue or trying to find evidence that albert wasn't mentally unstable use against him in something street that's why they were called the white house plumbers in daniel ellsberg cabinet 2000 gordon lady and the west of and seven the -- one of them hired sia connective to the explain the nationals to physically break new york times into ellsberg fike kylie trist why cabinet with a crowbar. he they were trying to find did what evidence that ellsberg was he did in mentally unstable to use that first against him and use against breaking him. vote that's why they were called the white house plumbers. and in 2007, one of them no time explained to the new york times did i why he did what he did in that or anyone first break in. else their quote, at no time did i or question whether the operation was necessary legal or more from the summer action was the strongly anyone else there question healthy whether the operation was with necessary, legal, or moral. certain the premise of our action was precincts the strongly held view that of the white house the president certain precincts of the white in those functioning house that the president and on his behalf of the carry on those functioning on his behalf illegal acts with could carry out illegal acts impunity in the with impunity if they were working things that the nation convinced that the nation's's security command security demanded it. stop there for second and think if that logic rings a down might be because it is so strongly echoing the logic of the three individuals indicted in now, stop here for a second. georgia think if that logic rings for their a bell. alleged it might be because it is so reaching strongly echoing the logic of voting systems in kyle the three individuals indicted county in georgia for their alleged they breaching of

voting systems in thought coffee county. they were helping the president defend they thought they were helping democracy the president defend democracy. joining us now is michael conley with joining us now is michael one of the house judiciary committee conway, who was one of the's a lawyer during their house judiciary committee's investigation lawyers during their into watergate investigation into watergate. just further not that on msnbc he just wrote an op-ed on.com about how the coffee county msnbc. com about how the coffee defendants brought county defendants brought watergate energy to georgia watergate energy to georgia. bungling so much for michael, thank you so much being with us tonight so for being with us tonight. fascinating piece that you wrote i think a lot of people who fascinating piece that you certainly don't know the wrote. ministry of watergate i think a lot of people who in its entirety certainly don't know the are gonna history of watergate in its benefit from this entirety are going to benefit conversation from this conversation. but talk to me more but talk to me more about the about the fact that fact that coffee county on coffee county officials officials did not to try to didn't try to conceal their conceal their activities, and activities and that the idea the might have thought they were doing the right thing by helping biden for his phone absolutely was that the idea that they might have faircloth thought they were doing the right thing by helping the then security president. cameras of you >> well, absolutely. pointed out shows it was very blatant, the of security cameras, as you being escorted pointed out, showed them being right into the voting escorted right into the voting areas secure from the public events and show the actually tampering with machines all one of the 03

is shed machine area secured from the public. sitting on it showed them actually a recording tampering with the machines. that was one of the three has said in an audio recording that was discovered in the shuffle motion discovered in a civil lawsuit, that saw thanks to the computer smoke all the voting equipment they that they imaged the computers scanned all of all the voting equipment, the memo they scanned all of the ballots. that the grumbling they were very blatant about about what they were what they were doing. doing the report to contend they purport to contend that that they had they had, quote, permission, permission close quote close quote. to this phone course think it's against the law

because in both cases, it was really an effort to undermine an election. certainly in watergate it was, when they were trying to record the democratic national committee office conversations. it certainly is here, where they are trying to tamper with voting machine equipment. in watergate, the three plumbers, all were convicted of violating the civil rights of the psychiatry. and of course, hunt and the liddy, who oversaw it, were later convicted in watergate. for the burglary, what was

important is that trying to hide the initial criminal action really led a lot to the cover-up. there's a cover-up here, with trump's efforts in overturning the 2020 election. >> you make a very important point. i'm glad you did. we should not lose sight of the smaller parts of this crime, alleged crime. and not lose sight of the big picture of what was attempted here. that really is what i kind of wanted to close this conversation out with you. which is the big picture of what was attempted here. this attempt to undermine our democracy and overturn an election illegally. i think back to when nixon said in an interview with david frost, famously, when the president does it, that means it is not illegal. would you say that sentiment is still pervasive in our political culture? and certainly with someone like donald trump.

>> absolutely, it is permeating many of the defenses. you even look at mark meadows, who says this case should be moved to federal court. because he was acting at the president's bidding. many of the people who did these things believed the election lie, propagated it with trump. they were acting on the president's behalf. but a little lesson from watergate, the chief of staff of president nixon went to prison. his former attorney general went to prison. the burglars went to prison. many others in the nixon administration went to prison. the rule of law applied then. hopefully, it's going to apply now. >> yes, certainly so for the sake of our democracy and for our justice system. michael conway, it's always a pleasure, sir. thank you so much for joining us tonight. i greatly appreciate it. >> thank you. >> still ahead, donald trump's former white house aides are so familiar with this pose that they coined a mean for eight years ago. what is it? and what it might mean, next. dangerous virus... [sneeze] ...for those 60 and older.

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convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice, please

raise your hand if you would? >> [applause] >> wow. that was one of the more memorable moments of wednesday 's republican presidential debate in milwaukee. they were all talking about, of course, current gop front runner, donald trump. he was not even in the room. he chose to skip the debate, perhaps because he had other things to worry about. like rehearsing for his pre-scheduled primetime debut, at george's fulton county jail on thursday night. even just the anticipation of his televised surrender in atlanta sucked a lot of the oxygen out of that debate room on wednesday. this was his fourth arrest. this time, for his efforts to overturn georgia's 2020 presidential election. but it is the only time he has taken a mugshot. which he delivered his signature scowl. in a new piece for the new yorker, susan glasser calls it the harsh glare of justice, quote, the trademark trump the lower is one of his cultivated

-- is one he has cultivated for years. in his white house, the aides called it simply, the stare. it might be a display of confidence from a man whose poll numbers seem to rise with each indictment. the willingness of his republican opponents to agree to support him, conviction or not, only reinforces that confidence for him. glasser writes, quote, there should be little doubt that those who claimed to have moved on from trump, such as haley and pence, will nonetheless raise their hands and vote for him again if they have to. for republicans, for now, there is once again only team trump. susan glasser, staff writer at the new yorker joins me, along with brian stelter, special correspondent for vanity fair. thanks to both of you for being here. susan, i'll start with you. what do you make of the spectacle of trump at the fulton county jail, along with this kind of dichotomy of republican candidates making a show of voicing their support

for the court to ripley indicted front-runner? >> well, you know, you're right that the trademark flower and glare is something that we absolutely could have expected. and in fact did expect from the trump mugshot. i was on a tight deadline for the new yorker. it's not known for its quick turnarounds, right? i pray wrote, anticipating that he would be glaring at us. and actually, i would say, the only surprise is that he looks a little bit even more sinister than i could've thought. when we were working on our book, the divide, or about trump at the white house, one of the things i found really interesting is the extent to which he is very calculated. this is not the spontaneous work of a showman. it is the calculated, cultivated persona that he wants. he doesn't believe in smiling. there are very few photo ops you will find him in which he is doing that. he thinks that he wants to project this image of strength, of being a tough guy, a boss, a strongman. he would rather really be scowling at you, then smiling

at you in a situation like this. so, the trump playbook is the trump playbook. but what is so remarkable, and the reason we are talking about him, of course, is because the republican party has decided to continue to embrace him. i'm glad you showed that moment from the debate. i know people are talking about, oh, while they had an interesting policy back and forth. but the truth is everything that was really important was contained in that moment. when six of those eight candidates said they would vote again for a guy who they are supposedly running against. even if he was a convicted felon. >> brian, your thoughts on this. the moment of the picture, the mugshot, juxtaposed with the reality that the republicans are still behind this guy, even if he's convicted. >> his mugshot was his i am your retribution face.

that's what he told the cpac audience in march. i am your retribution. that's what he's promising in a return. that's with the image was all about. he's somehow trying to celebrate this image, and his most -- he's claiming he looks strong, when in fact, this is the weakest possible image. there's so many lies happening this week around trump. you think about his interview with tucker carlson, which he claimed was bigger than the super bowl. we heard the big line in 2020, this is the new little lie trump is coming out. with claiming he's more popular than the fox debates. more popular than a super bowl or oprah winfrey. it's a joke. but it's a joke that's actually self defeating. he's telling his maga base that he is more popular than he actually is. at the end of the day, it's going to be a push comes to shove moment where that is proven not to be true. where actually, he was not more popular in the debate. we can claim it for a while, but the truth can eventually rear its head, and he will suffer as a result. >> we will talk a little bit of about that twitter and the viewership in just a moment. but susan, i want to point

something out that you wrote. you pointed out that trump's former campaign manager -- coin to this term, team normal, to describe those who tried and failed to convince trump that he had really lost the election. to bryan's point here about the reality setting in at some point, do you think that term still carries any weight with team trump, or team normal? >> well, i think one of the points i was trying to make is unfortunately even want passes for team normal and the remains of the republican establishment, characters like nikki haley, the former governor of south carolina, chris christie, the former governor of new jersey. they made their successes in the pre-trump republican party. yet, like mike pence, the former vice president, fatally compromised in the end. they made a deal with the devil. they knew that it was wrong. the lure of power and access and being inside, they choose to be his vice president, his u. n. ambassador, his confidant and friend. in the case of chris christie, all of them got singed in different ways by that. frankly, both mike pence and chris christie could arguably say that they were almost killed by donald trump.

mike pence, by the pro trump mob on january 6th. chris christie, literally contracted covid because trump lied about it as christine was prepping him for the 2020 debate. i think that was the end of their friendship. the point is, these folks, even at the risk of their own lives, have found it so difficult to swear off donald trump. there is no team normal. without the support of team normal, donald trump would not have been able to overhaul to command his power over the republican party. it's not just the most extreme maga people. >> let me ask you about that because you brought it up, i've got to stop saying twitter. i'm still used to twitter. >> it's always going to be twitter to me. >> formerly known as twitter. >> x y or z, give me a break. >> his team, trump's team, said that his counter programming interview with tucker carlson drew hundreds of millions of views. a lot of people have been pointing out that it's gotten 200 million of you count. people who follow and know how this business works knows that that is not a real number. >> it's not.

>> it's so misleading. >> the headline actually is the debate. the gop debate was actually a more popular event than many tv analysts expected. i was talking to executives of fox news who expected five, six million viewers. they actually had double the number. that means there's a lot of interest in the -- maybe not the mike pence's and ate a hutchinson's, in some of the other candidates. the nikki haleys, the ron desantises. there is interest in these trump rivals. that's actually really notable, i think. that's important heading into the general election. remember couple weeks ago, there's a -- interviewing a trump reporter who said, the indictments only make me love trump more. he said, quote, whoever the democrats hate is who i like. there's always a lot of interest in those folks. the trump loyalists no matter what. there's a lot of interest in the trump opponents. i think we should focus more on the people in between. the people in the republican party who are persuadable. there might be more than we think. let's look at these polls, in the next few days. coming out of this debate, the polls post-debate might show us that there are a little bit less energy around trump, and a little bit more around his rivals. >> a lot of lessons learned from 2016. they have to make sure we don't make those mistakes again.

both in the media and in the politics at large. brian stelter, susan glasser, thanks so much to the both of. you greatly appreciate it. as always. that is our show for tonight, you can catch me again saturday at eight pm, sunday at nine eastern on msnbc. now it is time for the last word with my friend ali velshi, who is in for lawrence. good evening, ali. >> hey buddy, nice to see you again. you've had a long week. but it's been a busy one. you've had a long week. but it's been a busy one. >> you know that feeling, my friend. >> you know that feeling, my you have a good weekend, i'll friend. see you next time. >> see you next week. you have a good weekend, i'll >> so tomorrow. i'll see you sunday, seeing see you next time. each other all. we have a good night, my >> see you next week. friend. >> you too. >> so tomorrow. i'll see you sunday, seeing each other all. we have a good night, my friend. >> you too. >> the arrest face of the prosecution of donald trump's criminal enterprise to steal the 2020 election in georgia is now complete. >> the arrest phase of the prosecution of donald trump's criminal enterprise to steal all 19 defendants accused of the 2020 election in georgia is now complete. all 19 defendants accused of being involved at have surrendered at the fulton county jail and all did so before today's noon deadline that was set by the district attorney, fani willis. that includes the last high-profile defendant to