boston university center for anti racist research. author of numerous important books, which are really worth reading, including the bestseller, how to be an anti racist and not a member of the kkk. all, right up next, the latest news of the jacksonville florida, plus, republican presidential candidate, will hurd, joins me. another hour of velshi begins right now. >> we want. you it is, sunday august 27th, i'm ali velshi. six years ago tomorrow that we lincoln memorial in washington d.c., dr. martin luther king junior delivered his famous i have a dream speech. quote, i have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character, and quote. yesterday evening, three black americans were murdered in a crime committed because of the color of their skin. officials are investigating

yesterday shooting at the dollar general in jacksonville, florida as a hate crime. the three victims, two, males one, female are black. the gunman is white. the sheriff says that the shooter, quote, hated black people. left a manifesto detailing his, quote, disgusting ideology of hate, and quote, and used an ar-15 style rifle marked with swastikas in addition to a handgun. nbc's marissa powell joins us now from jacksonville, marissa, what is the latest on the investigation? >> yeah, ali. for some context, this neighborhood where this shooter carried out his attack is predominantly a black neighborhood. and the shooter who, as you mentioned, had swastikas on his gun, also wrote racist messages in several different places. this, before opening fire at the dollar general store behind me. >> this morning, three people are shot dead in jacksonville florida, in a shooting police say was a racially motivated. >> we will pursue this incident as a hate crime. >> police say the shooter, a white male wearing a tactical vest and masks, opened fire in

$1 general store saturday afternoon, killing two men and a women, all of them black, before turning the gun on himself. police on scene recovered an ar -style rifle and a handgun, one of them covered in hand drawn swastikas. >> this is a dark day in jacksonville's history, also life is tragic. but the hate that motivated the shooter's killing spree adds an additional layer of heartbreak? >> additional authorities say that men absent letters to local law enforcement, social, media even his own parents expressing his desire to kill black people. >> it details the shooter's disgusting ideology of hate. >> proud of the shooting, police say the gunman stopped edwards waters university, that historically black christian university, what he was seen taking and putting on that tactical vest before going to the dollar general. >> i can tell you it's mindset was when he was there, but did go. they're >> dollar general blazing a state overnight, saying, quote, we are heartbroken by the senseless act of violence, the brazen

killing coming five years to the day after a mass shooting at a video game tournament right here in the same city also carried out by a lone gunman in jacksonville. >> he was aware of that, and perhaps chose to stay in alignment with that. >> on saturday evening, florida governor ron desantis, showing this video. >> he took hours way out, but we condemn what happened the strongest possible terms. >> meanwhile, back in jacksonville, anger and grief as a community comes to grips with unimaginable pain. >> the people in this community, they are hurting, and they have every right to, saying i am very, very angry right now. >> we were told the president has been briefed, and this is being investigated by the fbi as a hate crime. there will be a prayer circle and a vigil later this evening around 5:30 as the community searches for both answers and justice. ali? >> in jacksonville, florida,

thank you. turning now to the list of elements in the criminal racketeering case against donald trump, and 18 others in fulton county, georgia. yesterday, a lawyer for john eastman told nbc news that they are likely to move for a speedy trial in the coming days. if they follow through with that, it would make eastman the third trump lawyer connected to the fake electors scheme to pursue that strategy. after attorneys -- filed the same motion last week. meanwhile, back in georgia, fulton county district attorney fani willis is facing scrutiny from local republican officials. and a new state law could make it easier for them to discipline or even remove her from her post. back in, made the georgia governor brian kemp signed a bill that the prosecuting -- kemp was a big supporter of the law, and so what states lieutenant governor bert jones, this guy. i don't know much about him, but it says he's interesting character. he's been invited, indicted, let me put this clearly. he's been identified as an

unindicted coconspirator, number eight, in the fulton county indictment. because this guy, jones, is one of the who signed an illegitimate document alleging that trump won the 2020 election and receive the former presidents when when when fruit any governor last year, now is the actual lieutenant governor. any recent days, he's even mimicked trump's language in attacking fani willis writing in one post on x, which is the platform formally known as twitter, they are no longer's coming after trump. funny wilson or corrupt atlanta kebab are coming after you, and everyone else who disagrees with them. this is a political persecution that we won't stand for. it's time to hold fani willis accountable, and quote. all right, per the new law in georgia, and we can make a complaint to the commission, which would have the power to investigate, discipline, and even out the prosecution in question, including duly elected to state attorney, even before it became law. democrats won state

representative, described the -- season to hinder the investigation of trump and provide a way for republicans to get rid. for four, months republicans deny those accusations, and vaguely argued that the law was created to deal with, quote, roe prosecutors. but within days of it in fulton, county the state senator clinics and has invoked a new commission and so that he'll be making complaint against willis as soon as the group is officially empaneled on october 1st, quote, once the prosecutorial oversight committee is appointed on october, we can have them investigate, and take action against the efforts that weaponize the justice system against political opponents. >> this is our best measure, and i will be ready to call for that investigation, and quote. now, those plans could be thrown into doubt, because a group of fords to attorneys are now fighting back against the law and earlier this month they filed a lawsuit seeking to

block formation of the panel, arguing that it threatens their independent powers as prosecutors. joining me now is the former congressman joe walsh. he is the host of the pod cast, white flag, which a wall, she's the author of the book f-silence, also with us is jennifer reuben, an opinion writer for the washington post. she's an msnbc political analyst and host of the podcast general vince greene room and author of, quote, resistance. how women save democracy from donald trump. welcome to both you. thank you for being with us. joe, this one is muddy waters, right? because the republicans take the house, and design this weaponization of government subcommittee. which, if you shut up from mars, it, say what a great idea. a committee of congress sort of like the church committee of old, and we target individuals who targeted j edgar hoover people. great idea. but this is not what this actually is.

>> no, ali, this is all retribution for donald trump. let me just say really clear the sunday morning, and it pains me to say this, my former political party is actively radicalized against the rule of law. you've got a number of republican house committees in washington, d.c., who want to investigate this latest indictment. they want to investigate fani willis, they want to investigate jack smith. you've got the governor of florida who has removed duly elected prosecutors, and you've talked at your top about georgia trying to do the same thing. this, i think, we just need to be so clear with the american people. these next 14 months, because these next 14 months are so dam crucial. my former political party is actively working against the rule of law. that is just crystal clear, and, ali they are doing it all to

protect and defend donald trump. >> jennifer, i want to pull back to what i was talking about with generous excitement, the georgia indictments. you just wrote about the indicted trump lawyer, kenneth chesebro's motion for a speedy trial, which you called an, headline quote, another harebrained idea. you continued in your piece, quote, with the trial, tuck the pressure on chesebro to flip might be intense. none of this ends well for trump or cheeseborough, the last thing trump wants is a conviction of one of his alleged coconspirators. i mean, i will tell you more about. that's because sydney powell is now asked for, this john eastman has now asked for this, some lawyers tell me that it could be a ploy to say fani willis is not ready and will not be ready to try on october 23rd. sounds like fani willis says, i'm entirely ready to go to toronto or 23rd, so if you want to early and speedy trial, i am in. >> that's exactly right. it is such arrogance on the point and part of chesebro to think that, oh, this little state prosecutor, this woman,

this african american, women couldn't possibly be ready to go to trial. she's been getting ready for two years. she has investigated this up one side and down the other. he has really done the research on the law, she is more than ready and willing to get ready to go. so when she said she wants a speedy trial, she said let's make it october 23, and they said fine, let's make it october 2023. he seems to believe that since he's the author of a zillion crazy ideas, and bizarre legal theories, that somehow, he's going to escape from this. because he was working at the behest of the president, were you can't hold lawyers responsible for the advice they give, or whatever theory he has. none of that is going to fly, and there is complete and replete evidence against it from his own emails, from his own documents, from his own mount -- memos, showing that he knew the trump had lost, that he was trying to devise a scheme to mimic the real electoral slate

and to try to get trump into office, even though he didn't win. she has indebted the rights. and waiting to go to pull off in a fulton county courtroom, i have no idea, but remember, donald trump's entire scheme all along has been delay, delay, delay. a theory, that if he could just get past the election, somehow, he will win, and then hill pardon himself. >> then be safe. >> right. but getting a quick conviction, a conviction in the fall of 2023, does not cohabitate and does not line up with his scheme. the last thing he wants is for a jury to find on the american people watching on television, it's a prosecutor trial. they lit out this criminal enterprise that chesebro was a part of, and that donald trump led. and they're about to get an education the difference between rhetoric and a political campaign and the law

on the facts in a courtroom. so i can imagine a trump's lawyers must be tearing their hair, out thinking, oh gosh, we really don't want that, and if cheeseborough finally has the idea, that oh, maybe this was not a good idea. oh gosh, we have to go to trial in a couple months. -- that is also not trump's interest. >> joe, people forget this, because you arrive talking for a long time, but there was a point which we are mostly debating and you richer stuff and now you debate with people who don't share your view on things still. but you always read, and one of the things that we read this indictment into a podcast is because it actually causes me to read all of the indictments, right? there was nothing like the pressure that your boss is giving you to just read the dam things we can be posted. what do you say to trump supporters with whom you still interact, if there are any about the fact that these are real indictments, there is real facts, we do have a real justice system in this country there is a real jury of your peers and we are one household thing, some guys like ramaswamy say that they are going to

pardon him on day one, what do you say to people who say they are refusing to look at what the evidence is? >> ali, i still engaged. i engage every day with trump supporters, and two things. ultimately, i will ask them all a question. if you believe, and i will ask him directly this question. if you believe there was credible evidence that donald trump committed crimes, do you think he should be charged? and ali, they can't and won't answer that question. and the recent trump supporters, the republican base, won't answer that question, is because they have bought, i mean they have completely bought the narrative that donald trump is a victim. donald trump is the most persecuted person in the history of the world. they believe that. so every indictment, every trial, just enhances that

narrative, whereas additional diamonds, everybody else, we think, oh my god. these are criminal. every indictment that the average trump supporter hears about or sees is just further evidence that the fbi, the justice department, somebody is after him. that is why paradoxically, all of the strength in his support within the party. >> kind of remarkable. thanks to both of, you as always. former republican congressman joe walsh, author of f silence and jennifer reuben opinion writer for the washington post and author of resistance. still ahead this, our what is next for the republican party. i'm gonna speak with one white house hopeful who was once called the future of the gop. plus, the next episode of the velshi banned book club podcast is dropping this thursday. remember, we drop to last week, they've got another one coming this thursday. this one features one of the most culturally impactful authors of our time. margaret atwood. details ahead, you're watching velshi.

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we discuss on yesterday's show was senator chris -- according to russia, russia has completed a, quote, molecular genetic examination, and quote, of the bodies from wednesday's plane crash outside of moscow. russia says that yevgeny prigozhin was among the dead. now, as you can tell, where parsing rushes claimed confirmations, sensitive absolutely no way of confirming any of that information independently, as is the case of everything that comes out of russia these days. for its part, the kremlin is denying any involvement in the crash. seems to have killed prigozhin, who is the former russian catering oligarch turned founder of the russian allied wagner mercenary force. fought for russia in ukraine before leading a mutinous march on moscow. u.s. officials and experts

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he's the author of american reboot. and idealist guide to getting big things done. congressman, good to see you again, thank you for being with us. i've been wanting your take since last week. i was hoping to be on the debate stage, it went. i've been wanting your take because in moments tried to pretend it is an important debate about important issues, but there is this one big issue that is sitting on top of the republican party's head right now, that's donald trump. either the party distances itself from donald trump or it doesn't. until it doesn't, these small policy differences between candidates seem meaningless. >> there is a lot of talent on the debate stage, no vision. a lot of people still afraid of donald trump. that's disappointing. i think the fact that so many of them raised their hand when asked if donald trump was convicted, right? they would still support him. that's pretty outrageous.

guess what? if we're gonna be the party of law in order, if the gop is gonna be the party of law in order, we need to stand up for a line order. when it comes to things like donald trump's baggage, these issues are self inflicted wounds. i always tell my republican friends that if we want to talk about what joe biden is doing and this issue that starting to unravel of hunter biden, we actually have to win elections and be considered people people can take seriously. if we want to address some of the foreign policy disasters, we actually have to win elections. if we want to deal with things like the border, we have to do that. instead, we have candidates saying crazy things and trying to mimic behavior. that, lost channel trump is a loser. the fact that we're trying to, you know, continue some of his activities after the last election he won in 2016, that's insane. >> you have nikki haley,

conversation, everyone tried to trip over each other to see how tough they could be on abortion rights. she said, it's not a winning thing for us to go down this road of a federal election. then he had chris christie who represented a small group of you, a very small group of you, republican candidates who really wanted to directly challenge donald trump's behavior. here's what chris christie said, got more booze than tears for saying it. let's listen together. >> here's the bottom line, someone has got to stop normalizing this conduct, okay? now, whether in thy, whether or not you believe that the criminal charges are right or wrong, the conduct is in the the office of president of the united states. and, you know, this is the great thing about this country,

boeing is allowed, it doesn't change the truth. it does not change the truth. >> you had a similar experience in iowa. your guy, who is actually live the concept of conduct in politics, right? you've shown your bipartisanship, you and -- drove across the country, drove from texas to washington. your vision, your idea of what that leadership looks like, how to say to republicans, we can take this party and rebuild it into something that's worthy of calling the party of lincoln, not getting traction anywhere. how do you fix this? what's the problem? at what point does will hurd say, i can't do anything for this party, maybe i cannot be in this party. >> well, look, this is my party, i'm gonna fight to defend. i'm gonna say there's traction. i've been in this race a little over 60 days. i'm near 50,000 unique donors, i'm tied with nikki haley and mike pence in new hampshire, it's a critical state.

we're just getting started. the fact that, you know, people, when i'm in the airport, look, i'm not flying private planes, on southwest airlines. when i'm in the airport, people say, keep it up, keep fighting, do this thing, right? this is about building a movement of people that are normal and want a stain republican party or conservative party to have this competition of ideas to address challenges are countries facing. had we've unprecedented piece at a time the chinese governments trying to surpass this as a global superpower? how do we have a thriving economy at a time when new technologies like artificial intelligence or upending every single industry. this is what people want. guess what? those folks that believe in that, they're not following, not always watching political news or scrolling on social media, they're worried about putting food on the table, roof over their heads, they're not responding to phone calls from pollsters. the reality is there's way more people that do not want a rematch between joe biden and donald trump than there are --

those are the people that will have to activate. some of your viewers believe, that i need your help, good or hurt for america.com, help brother. out of whatever you can make sure we continue to take this message to the streets. >> i love to talk about china, a loving aunt talk about a, i scroll still, i came across a tweet of yours on august 23rd, in which you talk about stuff about the border and national diet, and china. you say, to solve these problems, we must retire joe biden and deliver the republican wins that donald trump can't. here's one issue, i'm pretending, will hurd, you're doing very well in the primary rankings, you might be the republican nominee, you might be running against joe biden. i want to put up their word, not mine, biden of excess, say what they're talking about. 13.2 million jobs created since the pandemic. if you take it all the jobs that were lost to the pandemic, still about 5 million ahead. unemployment, historical, 03 and a half percent, manufacturing jobs, could it 789,000. inflation, 3.2%.

you look across the pond to the uk, which has a conservative government, their inflation is multiples of where you are. a hard record to fight against economically. >> well, not necessarily, why does so many americans still feel like things are not getting better or the future is a little bleak? one of the reasons, despite what inflation is doing day-to-day, and the last few years, for the century, the cost of goods and services has increased three times average salaries. that's the issue that people are wanting to address. when you look at those unemployment numbers, if you go to a place like new hampshire in the north country, the northern part of the state, a lot of people that are working two and three jobs in order to make things work. or there is a lot of people that are not looking for jobs. these are the conversations we should be having. when 65% of americans think that a.i. is gonna take their jobs, they want to know how we're gonna make sure that the federal government plays a role

in works with the private sector to prevent something like that from happening, to make sure that a.i. is creating better paying jobs and not leading ton plummet? so, those are the kinds of conversations and debates that we should be having. that's the opportunity the gop would have if we nominated someone who's not a racist, doesn't say misogynistic things. in a, who is not a homophobe. it should be really simple, right? the fact i have to say that, especially at a time when you have candidates like -- saying crazy things about, calling democrats grand dragons of the ku klux klan, it's ignorant and insane, and distasteful. it's frustrating because that's the opportunity republicans have. i would love to have that debate with joe biden about bidenomics and how there is a better way to make sure for the next 247 years that we do what we've done for the last 247 years, and that's build an economy that is -- of the world. >> i love to listen to this

debate. good to see you as always. thank you for being with. us will hurd is a former united states congressman from texas. the gop presidential candidate. former cia officer and is the author of american reboot. and idealist guide to getting big things done. all, right still ahead, an attack on the teaching of black history in a state that is steeped in civil rights movement. ight movement s unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. hi! need new glasses? buy one pair, get one free at visionworks! how can you see me squinting? i can't! i'm just telling everyone!...hey! buy one pair, get one free for back to school. visionworks. see the difference. my cpa told me i wouldn't qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. their team of independent tax attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligible. [whip sound] take the first step to see if

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(josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan)ry it for free at i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. (vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. >> i've got an important question for all or velshi banned book club members, have you already subscribed and listened to our brand-new podcast? episodes 12 are already out there. they dropped on thursday. they're more on the way. the third episode drops this thursday, august 31st, featuring one of the most culturally influential writers of our time, the amazing margaret atwood. we will not just be discussing her magnum opus, the handmaid's tale, we'll see dig into her both, hugs the ad, which is a modern retelling of the shakespearean classic, the

tempest. mike that was writing, this conversation is powerful and important, if you listen to a single episode of this podcast, make it this one. scan the qr could on your screen or search velshi banned book club in the podcast app of your choosing. give us a listen again. episode three drops this thursday. all right, up next, we're looking at a different kind of censorship in the classroom. arkansas state governor, sarah huckabee sanders signed a bill banning, quote, indoctrination and critical race theory, and quote, in schools in her state. we're taking a look at the repercussions on history lessons. this is velshi. this is velshi d, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. (dad) we got our subaru forester wilderness

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it's your verizon. >> okay, if your house kool-aid arkansas, you cannot shake the advanced placement african american studies course. there is a catch. you will not earn any ap credit for. it creates a massive disincentive to take the course for a busy high school student was hoping to get into increasingly competitive colleges. the arkansas state education department abruptly remove the credit for the ap glass saying, quote, the department encourages the teaching of all american history and supports rigorous courses not based on opinions or indoctrination, and quote. this move comes months after the governor, sarah huckabee sanders signed bills banning, quote, indoctrination and critical race theory, and quote, in schools. this is the latest offense in the era of banning books,

whitewashing history, and state governments restricting educators in the classroom. in a statement, the college board said that it, quote, is committed to providing an unflinching encounter with the fact of african american history and culture, rejects the notion that the ap african american studies course is indoctrination in a form, and quote. the college board came under fire from conservatives this year for including black lives matter, black queer studies, and reparations and its course. arkansas is a unique place for this issue to arise because of its unique place in this nation's history of racial discrimination in education. back in 1957, 66 years ago, one of the most renowned moments of the civil rights movement happened there when nine black students, later dubbed the little rock nine, challenge racial segregation in the public schools of little rock, arkansas. the group, consisting of -- earnest grain, elizabeth eckford, many jayne brown, terrence roberts, --

jefferson thomas, gloria right, and fellow mothers should, shine the light on the struggle to desegregates public schools in the south by and at little rock central high school. until then, it had been all white. keep in mind, this was three years after the u.s. supreme court's 1954 decision in brown versus board of education of topeka, kansas. had declared segregated schooling to be unconstitutional. but little rock board of education warned the nine students, do not attend on a first day of school. they showed up on the second day, joined by a small interracial group of ministers. they were met by a white mob who shouted at them. they threw stones at them, they threatened to kill them. not only that, they were met by the force of a governor who publicly spoke of defying a federal court order with roughly 270 soldiers from the arkansas national guard, blocking the school's entrance to prevent these nine people

from coming in. the president, dwight d. eisenhower, governor -- and little mayor, discuss the situation over the course of 18 days while these nine students stayed home. the students return to the school on the 19th day, entering through a side door to avoid conflict. they were still attacked. the students were once again sent home. they returned the next day. this time protected by u.s. soldiers. over the rest of the year, the little rock nine kept facing physical and verbal attack from white students. many jayne brown actually fought back, for that, she was expelled. the remaining eight students attended the school for the rest of the academic year. fast forward until today, after all they've been through in the name of education, several surviving members of the little rock nine are still denouncing the arkansas department of education's restrictions on the states ap african american studies course. on the other side of this break, all speak to the little rock nine member, terrence roberts, and dr. ivory tolson, national

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terrence roberts, civil rights leader and member of the little rock nine. also joining us is dr. ivory toll some, the director of education, innovation, and research for the naacp. he is the editor in chief of the journal of need grow education on the author of the book, no bs, be a standing for

bad stats. black people need people who believe in black people enough not to believe every black thing they, every bad thing they hear about black people. thanks to both of you for joining us. dr. roberts, it is a privilege to michio because we don't often meet people who are living embodiments of history who are live testimony to what actually happened in the civil rights movement in this country. that's who you are. so, to me, banning ap african american history is intellectually about idea. it is suicidally a bad idea. it's your actual lived experience. how does this feel to you? >> well, it's not so much a matter of feeling. when i think about it, this is not different from choices that have been made to centuries in this country. 1957, the ban was basically against living people who are

banned from the school. even though the law hadn't changed. today, the ban is against telling the story. it's all part of the same plan. there are enough people in this country who follow that plan to make it very difficult for those of us who really want to live by other ideals in pursuit of different ways of being. the number of people who buy into this method of living their lives here is -- not diminishing. i say that because often i'm asked by people who know my story, but haven't we made progress? i figured out that question is not seeking information, that's the question people ask when they want to get my sanction for them to be quiet and silent, not to confront those people who are doing things differently than the way we would do it. so, i've come up with ideas about why that is over the centuries. i think it's the same as it was

in the beginning of this country's history, were propelled by greed and selfishness, lust for sex and power, unshakable belief in the value of white supremacy. finally, a willingness to use violence against anyone who speaks out against using the same principles. it's an amazing set of facts. i don't know what to do with it at this point. you know, and my 81 years on the planet, i am puzzled over this. i still don't have all the answers. >> that's, i guess, the issue, right? what do we do about it at this point? dr. tolson, when i look with the governor of arkansas was doing today, i think back to 1957 when, by the way, it was a racist governor, racist white governor of arkansas. happen to be a democrat at that time, the democrats like the segregation thing. we still talk about this governor many many years later, many decades later. i worry that the current governor of arkansas or near the southern states should be thinking about this. they're going to embed

themselves in the legacy of america. at some point we're gonna break the back of not being allowed to learn and not being allowed to teach. they will learn that they still stand on the wrong side of history. >> he, of europe slowly right about that. i want to thank you for the introduction that you gave. i learned a little bit about the little rock nine from your introduction, it was very comprehensive and sharp. when we look at what governor sanders is doing, you know, let's think about the absurdity of a governor who has about 85% of her teachers in her state that are white and she believes there indoctrinating students with a theory that she doesn't even understand, critical race theory. we know that's not happening. we know arkansas is a reliably red state with ideologies that lead into the right. so, she is making up this bogeyman, trying to make parents fear their teachers. it's very counterproductive.

just like you said, she is on the wrong side of history. i believe that the board of education of little rock who two days ago passed a resolution saying they will uphold ap african american studies and provide opportunities for those students, so much they can do with resistance of the state. but we see people there. we see the school that she bragged about belonging to, defying the governor, saying those still offer the course. we see the naacp chapters, the state conference of arkansas who is fighting against this. i believe that we will prevail and making sure that students have these opportunities. it's a struggle that's gonna be a serious fight. >> doctor robert, i was an arkansas, i stood on the stairs of that school, just trying to taken a bit of history, just trying to understand what it must have been like for you.

why is it important? so far in history now that we can't imagine segregated schools. why is a crucial for us today to learn these things? there is no way to look at the images of those 19 and 20 days there and not think this is a failure in american morality and jurisdiction, ultimately a success because you are allowed into the school. no way to look at this but a blemish on the way we once wore. why is it important that we learn to but our history and every one of these warts in order to get better? >> well, from what you just said, to me, it is most imperative that we understand history. we experience in little rock, it is not a success story, as many people believe. we were able to get into the school by combining force against force, one army glanced another, really. then, we were not allowed to continue because the governor closed down all public high schools in little rock for the

following school year. 1958, 1959, that's clear, saw all those high schools empty. now, that created a real problem. but that was not the most pernicious example of that. there are other places where schools were closed for longer periods, not just high schools, also elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools. that was the response to the decision, many people were unwilling to obey the law. you know, we claim to be in a law-abiding society, only if those laws actually fit the thinking of those who want to do it differently. i would think about this in terms of giving students the opportunity to learn the truth about who we've been so they can figure out what decisions to make in the present. we've made the mistake of trying to compartmentalize time into past, present, and future, we cannot do that. it's one continuous stream. what happens in the past

dictates what happens in the present and tells us what might happen in the future. >> what happens in the past dictates what happens in the present, could tell us what's happening in the future. that's exactly right, the entire reason to study history. >> exactly. if we don't study history, we miss out. -- every other week. we have to rely on these historical records. we know, we are not perfect. you know, this is an imperfect society. we cannot diminish or dismiss what has happened. we would have to look at it and learn from it. we have to make better choices. now >> doctor toldson, one of things we feature is banned book club, we need to feature that, booker someone tries to bend that, after it wasn't, there even if it makes uncomfortable, it's not your life experience. we're hearing so much for conservatives in this country for the wokeism, the indoctrination, all of that. yeah, as dr. roberts just said, the laws are fine, the rules are fine, until they tell us story don't want to tell. that's exactly the story of ap

african american history in arkansas, in florida, and everywhere else, right? we don't want the story that doesn't suit the narrative that we believe would like to tell. >> yeah, you're absolutely right. and we have to think about our children. we have to think about the generation we're raising. do we want to raise a generation that resents each other or that doesn't understand each other? do we want to raise a generation that respects each other and that has empathy and love for all americans, regardless of the race? last year, there was an 18 year old who killed, murdered black people in buffalo and had a manifesto where he talked about critical race theory being a jewish plot. he got that from the politicians that are talking right now. yesterday, we had a young white man who went in and murdered black people in jacksonville, florida. these are the dangers of us, of

these politicians, like desantis, like sanders, that have this very dangerous rhetoric. so, we really need to take a step back and think about what we're doing to the next generation. >> dr. roberts, you were quoted in a story by a colleague of mine here nbc who is published on august 18th, does speak about your experience that day. again, i'm leaning into why we need to remember some of these things. on that of a suffered physically and emotionally. one of the worst moments for you as when a white student willing a baseball bat called you the n-word and said, if you weren't so small, before dropping the baseball bat and backing off, in your mind, at that point, you thought to yourself, perhaps you're saved by your small statute. >> absolutely. it is that kind of crazier that we went through, never any assurance that our names wouldn't wind up on a list by the end of the school day. we had to walk that gauntlet

every single day. we have to develop strategies for survival. i remember thinking, if they don't kill me, my own fear might take me out. that kind of beautiful place. i was able to manage it by figuring it out, i have the option of wrestling with my own fear. i found out, for instance, it was another people making me afraid, i chose fear in the face of what i was seeing. once that became clear to me, i was able to regulate the fair to a degree, not entirely, but i could survive in that environment. a lot of that is about what happens to people. you know, those kids that central were actually operating on something i just learned from a course in -- unconscious incompetence. they didn't know what they didn't know. they were not there to learn. they thought they knew it all already. what that course goes on to say,

we want to move from unconscious and confidence to finally getting to unconscious confidence where we know that we don't know but we have to learn it so well that we can respond without having room to think about it in the moment. now, applying it to -- that means that people who embrace the ideology of white supremacy or the racist ideology have to understand that they don't know enough. they have become consciously aware that they are racist. if you take on the mantle, even that may hurt them. they're making a move to a conscious and competence where they are aware of the influenza, great to learn, and then move up to conscious competence, which is a good place to be before you get to unconscious competence where you can act without anything about it. dedicated yourself to following newer and more favorable principles for you and others. >> i'm glad you learned about that in defense of driving, now i've learned about, it so has all my audience. we appreciate, that sir. doctor terrence roberts is the

civil rights leader and a member of the little rock nine. dr. arbery toldson's director of innovation and research at the naacp, author of the book no bs, bad stats, black people need people who believe in black people. all, right that does it for me. thank you for watching, catch me back here next saturday and sunday morning from 10 am until noon eastern. don't forget to check out the velshi banned book club podcast reveals near podcasts. go nowhere because inside with jen psaki begins right now. now >> a photo for the history books and a former president who is once again out on bond. donald trump gets his mugshot moment after surrendering to authorities in fulton county, georgia. former atlanta mayor and judge, keisha lance bottoms was outside the jail as that surreal scene unfolded this week. she is coming up first. plus, the law firm is back. they're here to preview high stakes hearings tomorrow both fani willis and jack