which means the dismissal process will begin for elementary and middle school. high schools will dismiss at their normal time. that is right about now. i want to thank all of our guests for taking us through this newshour. if it is 4:00 p.m., it is a wrap for me. good night whitehouse starts right now. -- good night, everyone. we will go to a developing situation with an eye trained on the university of north carolina campus. a report of a single shot fired. police right now search for someone they are calling a person of interest who is still at large. this is an evolving situation. conflicting reports, we will not report them until we have confirmation. no word on injuries. the hospital spokesperson says that no one has been

transported from the scene. we have learned this from our affiliate in the area. this person of interest to you see on the screen is apparently now in custody according to our local affiliate. we will monitor the news there and we will bring you any updates as we get them confirmed. a search forward in two separate efforts to hold donald truck accountable in the aftermath of the 2020 election. in fulton county, georgia, the chief of staff was face-to-face with a federal judge this morning who heard arguments on a request that was made by meadows to move his case to federal court from georgia. we will spend more time on that particular case later in our two hours. a look ahead to the arraignment of donald trump which is scheduled today for next week. will you have a calendar out,

dry circle around march the fourth of next year. that is the major development in the other developments we are watching today. brought by the special counsel, jack smith. march 4th is the day that the judge is selected for the start of the trial and the federal election case. a result of a heated status conference telling him to take the temperature down. >> it is not as soon as the justice department wanted. they were hoping for january. that is before what the defense wanted which is april, 2026. it is the pushback from his team after what they said in court today. this afternoon's developments in both cases provide greater clarity as to what is shaping up to be a busy 2024 with cross

-- to the election in november. the former u.s. attorney who is outside the d.c. court where he presided today. acting assistant attorney general for national security, editor at large charlie sykes, and with me at the table, the director of the public policy program, welcome to all of you. thanks for being with us. let's start with you and what happened in that court today. it got happened heated where he said, you are not getting the extension you are hoping for. in the end, they got two months. >> did get heated at times. it was coming from just one side of the war room.

from the defense counsel table. the lead defense attorney for donald trump started loud and only got louder and he asked twice to take the temperature down. he was arguing passionately about why he contended that he needed two years to prepare the case for trial. he opened with, neither of the two trial dates that have been proposed, january by the prosecution or april 2026 proposed by the defense. neither are appropriate. i was expecting a splitting of the difference. here is how it sort of played out. she gave the defense team several opportunities to come up with a more realistic proposed to trial date. he refused to budge even one month or one day. by the end of the hearing, what

she was thinking, she said, your idea and my idea of how much time is necessary are very different. i am setting jury selection for this case on march 4th, 2024. that gives them enough time to adequately prepare for trial. >> there are distinctions for those who look at the indictments and wonder how they are all the same, there is a distinction to be made from this case and the mar-a-lago documents case. the judge made the point today that this is not what this case is. there is a lot of information that you will have that you already know about that does not require the prep time that he thinks it does.

they might've had a better argument. based on the evidence that we have now, this is enough time. >> remember, she was a defense attorney that tried cases against glenn and myself back in the day. she knows what it takes to bring a case to trial. every single one of those classified documents that is charged in the indictment, 31 classified documents, the defense has to look at those and make arguments about whether or not the government did hold those documents and keep them from being made public. they want to look at other classified information. they cannot take them to the offices. very specialized hearings.

with one small caveat is it related to the january 6 related case. there are a small number of classified documents that they feel like they have to turn it over to mr. trump. it is a small number. it is going to take the same number of hearings as the mar-a- lago case. yes, there might be some details in a new indictment or document. maybe they have not seen. much of the story has been told in the press. it has been told in the indictment itself. government was ready and they had completed turning over discovery. it is not the kind of thing

that they need to lay eyes on every single document. they can use searches with keywords to get this through. i think she was being realistic and this will go to trial before the election. >> that is the answer we need from someone like you. what needs preparation and secrecy and time to review. the former trump attorney was on fox news yesterday making an argument does does not sound like it is going with drops turning -- >> how do you handle prepping a client for all of those different trials and running for president of the united states? >> it was a normal person, i could understand the concern.

president trump is not your average person. incredibly intelligent and he knows the ropes and he knows the facts because he lived them. these are not complemented facts. there was a phone call that has been around forever that he refers to as the perfect phone call. what is he going to have to be prep for? you don't have to prep much when you've done nothing wrong. that i'm not concerned with. >> you are chuckling. he knows the facts, he knows the truth, what is there to prep for? >> let's try the case next week. >> that is funny. we could have it next week. all of that bravado, all of that noise, all of that passion, that is what they are used to doing. what is amazing as this is

playing out, this is going to the big boy table. these are judges that do not play around. and as we get closer and i imagine his team will try to do everything in their power to move this thing again and again. it is a tricky day that he has chosen. right before super tuesday. he does not want to have that happen. we are at a point where every trick that he is used to using will not work. >> this is super tuesday. if you are donald trump and you are looking at this very busy week that you have had. what is the most threatening day? the republican debate that you were not part of. that did not materialize into much. i'm not sure that any of this

affects his political calendar all that much. he just plays like it does not bother him, his supporters are not troubled by that. >> none of us know exactly what is going to happen. the date is interesting because it is right when he hopes he will wrap up the republican nomination. it is possible that he will wrap up the nomination well this trial is going on. how deeply enthralled the republican party is when six of the eight challengers said they would still support him if he was a convicted felon. we will have many days like this over the next year and a half. his lawyers will go into court and they will try the usual tactics in an environment where that does not work.

they are doing exactly what he is telling them to do. he is riding high on the republican party but he is really a client from hell. >> you were in the court. the first of many times when he has seen her. you will see her interacting. how did that look? she made the point that she does not want this politicized and she does not want politics to's play a role. tell me what we need to know based on what we saw today? >> she is smart, she is fair, she is stern. she will be demanding and when she sets a trial date and a briefing schedule in the run-up through that. i think she will stick with that. she will not let the defense

requests to push deadlines down the road and have the file date slide. she will not endorse that or allow that. i tried to murder cases against her and she referred today to the fact that she has prepared cases, as a defense attorney, murder cases and she understands the responsibility that the defense attorney has to make sure that they understand all of the evidence that has been handed over in discovery. she was confident that donald trump's team of defense lawyers can do that in the next seven months. i have said it before. when you watch her preside over any criminal case, she does not play.

she is polite but she is stern. i do not think the defense attorneys should try her patients or her resolve. particularly when she made a point of saying, donald trump is entitled to a fair and speedy trial and so are the american people. they are entitled to have this resolved in advance of the election. this is how we will proceed. >> you have a fantastic podcast that i have listened to a couple times. you are not dropping because of all of the development here. i want to look at the dates that she set for this one particular case. the prosecutors have to provide notice of evidence. expert witnesses, jury instruction is january the 15th, the witness list, trial beginning on march 4th. if you are donald trump's

attorneys, you asked for it for political reasons. donald trump would like to have a chance being president of the united states again before any of this goes to trial. is there a legal reason or something he could have said or done to push this thing further down the road than the few months i he got? >> no. he made the argument that he can make. to ensure due process to prepare they needed more time. you know, defendants do not get to choose when they go to trial. they do not want to go to trial. he has an obligation as a judge to make sure that he has a frail -- fair trial. you have resources and you cannot afford counsel. you can get more counsel if necessary to make sure they are prepared. i do think with respect to that's schedule that you showed

on screen, if before any one of those dates there is a reason that requires them to ask for time, she will entertain that. if she thinks it is needed, that could budge a little bit. that's why i said earlier, this will go to trial before the election without his march 4th were things happen to push it off by days, weeks, must look at every motion on its merits. this is putting her on a very tight calendar. motions, guess who has to rule on them? the judge. everything that mr. trump is going to file against everything that the government does. she is not just holding him to this schedule.

sometimes, judges use their own schedules to put things off. because they are backed up. that will not happen here. she understands this needs to move forward. it is society's interest. got it straight from the u.s. supreme court. >> if you will take this policy into play here. march will be different from september or october. the closer that donald trump gets to being the republican nominee, the more that he gets to claim that this is election interference. setting a trial date does not depend on a defendants personal and professional obligations. like any defendant will have to make the trial date work regardless of his schedule. >> it sounds lawyerly. this is the election

interference. does the timing? will you make products use every time you like something? >> he will make that excuse no matter what she decides. i think the judge knows that. she is going to push ahead and do her job and have the court do its job. donald trump will continue to attack the judge and the prosecutor and will continue trying to use this and leverage this to help him play the victim. so far it is effective in the republican primary. if it will be next spring, we do not know. republicans are faced with this nightmare scenario of him showing up in milwaukee next summer as a convicted felon. yet they continue towards barreling towards giving him the nomination. it is an unprecedented situation.

quite frankly we do not know how the politics will play out. we look at the republican party as people expected that is the scenario. that is what republicans are looking at. >> stay right where you are. before we go to break. we got the all clear in chapel hill, north carolina following some scary hours on the campus there. it is all clear on the campus of north carolina. this is scratching the surface, will widen the lens and we will show you how hectic next year will be for donald trump. ever since the march on washington, the fight against

hate in this country has a long way to go following another racially motivated deadly shooting in jacksonville florida over the weekend. later in the show, mark meadows will make his case inside a george of poor room. although stories and more. deadline white house continues after this. do not go anywhere. join one krn and use rewards across expedia, hotels.com, and vrbo. hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. -right? i'm great. -you are great. oh, brother. this flea and tick season, trust america's #1 pet pharmacy.

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president barack obama wore a tan suit. the audacity, it was as ridiculous then as it is now. now many of those conservative wagons are circling around another president. which indictment enrich jurisdiction you're talking about indictment. it is astounding what is a scoundrel these days. let's go down that road. i remember that moment nine years ago, what is this about? i did not even understand what the thing was. did occupy a couple days of the news cycle. >> there were some people in our country that believe that presidents should look and behave a certain way. i also remember years before that, there were so many people that said to barack obama, you are too uppity, stay in your

place, hold your lane. three followed the audacity of hope. saying to all of us that there are forces that are trying to say stay in your lane, do not do too much, do not think too far ahead or to boldly and he changed all that. unfortunately we have seen in this country goes downhill from there. their factors and forces talking about as being in a post-racial society and we are so from our farm that. we value races and creating the racial hierarchy. we are seeing that play out right now with everything we see with trump. every time someone has an opportunity to use the platform of the gop candidates, they are

not saying anything that is about expanding opportunity. it is so productive that it is harming us as a democracy. that is the juxtaposition we saw under barack obama. >> everywhere i go, i carry these three binders. stand behind you on your mantle, you have the january 6th report. he said something in the debate last week, forget the legality of the whole thing, with the republican party cannot get their head around. people expect presidents to act a certain way. conduct is something that he is asking his fellow candidates to condemn in respect to donald trump. >> the speed and the distance

that things have moved. i was just thinking, to lineup all of the comments that conservative republicans made about the importance of character. why the president should be a role model. why this was so important. they were the law and order party. what used to be a scandal in the before times. they went to the presidency after there were emails saying lock her up. a convicted felon, not a problem. that is his point. we can debate the legalities. but we cannot support a convicted felon. what about the conduct itself. what about what he did.

what kind of a role model is he? what are we willing to accept? we have seen this escalation. it is gathering speed. this was the premise of his candidacy. if donald trump was indicted by a grand jury, the voters would take the off ramp. they would decide that is a bridge too far. they have not. here we are. we are the political party that would say that they are completely okay with this. >> if you have any doubt about if donald trump or any of his colleagues are being treated fairly. what would they do if it was

barack obama. the anger and the angst, the all hands on deck against him would have been at a whole another level. i always do this. what would be the case if this was barack obama instead of donald trump. >> part of this, at some point between all of these indictments and trials, there is a court of public opinion element to this thing. if he wins this competition saying that this is something against him, authoritarians in the past have succeeded. i'm the only one standing between them, and it is politicized. are you confident that these cases will silence these people? i'm not. >> it will not silence those

people. at some point, the court of public opinion will yield to the court of law. something my friend charlie said, donald trump will show up in milwaukee as a convicted felon. i take a different view. i don't want to get ahead of ourselves. he has been indicted and has a trial date set. he has not been convicted of any crime yet. if he is, when he is a convicted felon, the only place that he should show up is that the bureau of prisons to serve a sentence of confinement. that is the only way that we will deter the next aspiring dictator from doing what donald trump has done. at some point, the rule of law will kick in. he will overrule the court of public opinion. >> the calendar of everything that is coming up. it is a lot of things that are happening next year. in january there is the defamation suit that is

happening, the iowa caucus, this trial if it starts on march 4th, that is before super tuesday. political things, the legal things. they used to say, is this a president he would like to have a beer with, is this a presidential candidate you would like to share a cell with. we appreciate your time. thank you for spending time with us. a racially motivated shooting in florida leaving three people dead. 60 years since mlk's i have a dream speech. how much further this country has to go in terms of equality and freedom for everybody. more on that story. story. use. i wanted to try something that was over-the-counter. i saw the prevagen commercials.

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weekend because of the color of theirs in. a 21-year-old gunman opened fired in jacksonville, florida. his manifesto officially was full of white supremacist ramblings that read like the diary of a man man that he did like people. the justice department is investigating the shooting as a hate crime. joe biden condemned the attack that white supremacy has no place in america. demanding that common sense gun legislation he feels some days like we are going backwards. joining our conversation is the jacksonville city councilman and professor of african- american studies. joining us. no me just start with you. first of all, how your community is doing.

i heard you saying that this is not who we are. this is what we all are now. everyone has to face this. >> exactly. we cannot put this to the side. and we cannot act like this is not us. it is incredibly sad looking at it from a place of journalism. but also the city council. going into that community and talking to the people from the community and students at edward waters. it is sad. if nothing gets done, sadness will turn into anger. >> what do you do? you are a member of the city council. i ask you questions that we cannot typically ask people to come from these communities. what should we do differently? the condolences on the sorrow, it goes nowhere. it does not matter anymore. the fear that parents have for

their children and the fear of going to dollar general to find your stuff. >> that is the thing. it starts with us. my brother is on the same page as i am about this. what is important that we have to stop these programs and things that cause this rhetoric. the seeds that were planted years ago are now bearing the fruit of what we saw this weekend. a governor in the state and other state legislators talking about people of color and how they benefited from slavery. people trying to stop the african-american ap curriculum. blocks to stop new colleges. these are all seeds in the ground that are being fertilized over and over again. it starts with us having the conversations whether it is on

social media at work in the classroom. whatever it is, we have to do it step-by-step. there is not one thing we can do. we have to ensure that we are being vigilant and we are being verbal. and that we are going through to the elected officials. putting pressure on them to do the work bit by bit. >> a lot of work to do. you just outlined some of it. talk to bottom. school boards that banned books. there is a parallel here. it is guns. as your community is black reeling with this. how do you balance those two? we are a society steeped in racism. >> it is not either or. we have to do it together.

we have to do the work of stopping the access we have two guns. high-powered guns. i look at the guns that this guy had access to, weeks ago, in florida, we just past the permit list carry order. i was one of the states action. now the local level where i am legislating. it is the resolution. on the state level and national level, there are too many guns on the street and to much access for people who are not stable enough to use the guns. i get it. recently someone put a gun on the table and said, this gun will not kill a person. crazy and ignorant people with guns, that is who kills people. they have access to guns and those who are speaking rhetoric

like hate. we had with situations like this. things like our students, i was text messaging with some of our students that still today, 40 hours, they are afraid to come out of their dorm. >> i know you're busy and have things to do. i will let you go. thank you for everything you do for your community. much more after this. >> he is awaiting rudy giuliani. >> mr. mayor? mr. mayor? mr. mayor? you acknowledge that you made false statements? you acknowledged it. why won't you put that in the port?

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i do not want to get in the way of the councilman. he had to go. saying a lot of things that we need to continue to unpack. the councilman did a good job. the structure that we create for some of these people. we don't know if this guy would've taken the gun and shot them. we do not know what this is. a permission structure that says, we do not need to lean into understand the injustices in this country and in places like florida, it is not getting better. >> councilman johnson pointed to the hatred in the country. they are networks of hate

groups and the rhetoric of dehumanization that is parasitic on structures of inequality that are based on the evaluation of particular people and evaluation of others. people feel like they are losing their footing. those other folks fall and then you added guns to the mix, what would've happened if president kennedy had not coddled southern racist bigots. 60 years ago if they had not coddled of the bigots. those two boys that died in burning him might have been dead. what happened a year later in mississippi. it is the coddling.

desantis said that no one should be singled out because of their race. that has informed a lot of these things they have been doing. we have to understand it for what it is. >> even if you are trying to correct for things that have happened in the past. basil, what is your take on this? >> i believe that black people are being hunted in this country. he went to jacksonville to do this. the shooter in buffalo left to go to buffalo to shoot people and black people are being hunted. >> not that is any better. it is clear. black people are being hunted in this country. i have more and more african- american friends saying that they are going to buy firearms. it is a problem. i understand the concern for

themselves and their children and they do not feel safe at supermarkets or churches or schools that it is not safe for them anymore. my answer to that is that i should have a gun to protect myself. that has never been my answer. the problem is now that for so many african-americans, the answer seems to be that i need to arm myself. i grew up in the 70s and 80s during the arms race. i was about nuclear war and now it is a personal arms race to protect yourselves in the street. this is clearly where we are now. the presidential candidate saying that we need to be in that society and that is the present political state. that is a ridiculous statement. whose kids are you going to experiment with because you can snap your fingers and all of

that goes away? >> i don't want to give him more oxygen than he needs. when asked about the jacksonville shooting, those are the last burning embers of racism. that is exactly what i believe modern culture is doing by creating race-based quota systems that deny people based on the color of their skin. a man that shares my color of skin, is go to on why a man with a racist manifesto was to kill people was affirmative action. what if you had done the right thing and carter after him did not do the right thing for much of his legislative career. 50 year exercise to finally stop this hatred in america? >> right, remember the last major piece of legislation was the act of 1968.

12 years later. not 20, 25. 12 years later, ronald reagan is going to undo the racism. 15 years after the voting rights act. he is going to undo everything. what really burns me is of eve people, the tradition out of ve which i come, that makes him possible. if we didn't lay everything on the line, put everything on the line to open up this country, he wouldn't be running for president today. just plain and simple. >> tell the truth, eddie says, basil. and yet in florida they are one of the top states in terms of book banning. >> that's right. >> and one of the books that kicked this off, eddie was the first guy on my velshi banned book club and we were talking about things like the 1619 project. that's what kicked off this rage. can't tell the story about black people when they really got here and what they really did. >> that's right. when the candidates talk about being colorblind, it's yeah,

colorblind because you want to be able to tell your narrative and nobody else's. >> the other narratives are crowding you out. >> exactly right. i go back to a friend and scholar, robert harvey, who talked about hush harbors. i'll explain what that is. it's when -- it's actually taken from slavery but it's a way in which folks that wanted to teach our culture and our history to young people in particular, they had to do it elsewhere and out of sight of others. right? we find that more and more of our teachers are doing that in schools to this day because, and i would imagine especially the case in florida where teachers don't feel that they can have the instruction or be able to, you know, engage the next generation, enculturate them in some wade ways and they've got to find spaces and places to be able to do that out of the sight of these authority figures that are saying no, you can't do that. >> out of sight of the state for all intents and purposes. >> for all intents and purposes. these hush harbors are becoming more and more precedent throughout the factor because

there are so many factions trying to take that instruction away from young people so they can't even see themselves in college life, in professional life. and when you layer on top of that a supreme court who has essentially said the same thing, right? when you layer on top of that the supreme court, the question is if institutionally this is being replicated not just at the national level but from state to state and district to district, so much so that even governors are getting involved in school board elections to make sure certain things aren't taught, where else should we go? >> guys, there's a lot more to talk about here, and i appreciate it. eddie, i just want to remind everybody, because we launched our velshi banned book club podcast last week. you were the first guy. it was a phone call with you and me where we talked about why we need to do this. and this is part of it. you've got to tell people's stories and you cannot let the state shut down your ability to do that. thanks to both of you, eddie glaude and basil -- >> ali, really quickly. i'm sorry, my man. but remember, one of the books that's banned is nick stone's novel "dear martin." and here we are 60 years later.

can you imagine? >> dear martin. a letter from the protagonist to martin luther king. guys, thanks a million. quibbling break for us. an update on the storm that has people in florida preparing for a category 3 hurricane. we're going to show you where that's tracking after this. when migraine strikes, you're faced with a choice. ride it out with the tradeoffs of treating? or push through the pain and symptoms? with ubrelvy, there's another option. one dose works fast to eliminate migraine pain. treat it anytime, anywhere without worrying where you are or if it's too late. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. allergic reactions to ubrelvy can happen. most common side effects were nausea and sleepiness. migraine pain relief starts with u. ask about ubrelvy. learn how abbvie could help you save.

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idalia, which is forecast to become a dangerous major hurricane over the gulf of mexico by early wednesday. that's according to the national hurricane center. it's expected to make landfall in florida as a category 3 storm, which can cause devastating catastrophic damage. president biden has approved florida's emergency declaration. he's spoken with the governor ron desantis earlier this morning. we're going to keep you updated with any developments as we get them. up next for us, trump's other big criminal investigation that was in front of a judge today. the fulton county case. mark meadows is trying to get it moved. how that went, when "deadline: white house" continues right after this quick break. white house" continues right after this quick break

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the indictment alleges that rather than abide by georgia's legal process for election challenges the defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise to overturn georgia's presidential

election result. hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. i'm ali velshi in for nicolle wallace. when the fulton county district attorney fani willis charged donald trump and 18 others on rico, or racketeering charges, she was clear in her allegation that this was a criminal enterprise in which they engaged, a wide-ranging conspiracy to overturn donald trump's loss in georgia's presidential elections. today the first battle in willis's case. this man, the former chief of staff mark meadows, who turned himself in last week to avoid arrest, took to the stand for nearly three hours in a hearing over the request that he filed to move his case from state court to federal court. meadows argued that willis's charges against him pertained to actions that he took while serving in the white house, that they were not criminal, he was simply acting in his official duties as a former chief of staff. willis, of course, is arguing the exact opposite. the "washington post" reports, "former trump chief of staff meadows repeatedly insisted in

his testimony in atlanta that there was a federal nexus to all of his actions mentioned in the georgia indictment. he defended his participation in meetings and phone calls described by prosecutors as part of the plot to subvert the 2020 election results because he said there was a federal interest in, quote, free and fair elections, end quote. moving the case out of state court would broaden the jury pool to include more than just residents of fulton county. and meadows hopes the federal court would be more favorable to the immunity argument that he's already signaled that he plans to make. now, if this move by meadows proves successful, it might sway even more of the 19 defendants to follow suit and seek to move their cases. already 5 of the 19 have made that attempt. one who has not taken that step yet is this man, the former president, donald trump. today one of his lawyers was present at meadows' hearing, signaling the ex-president's team is watching what happens at this hearing very closely.

now, speaking of trump and federal court today was also a big day in special counsel jack smith's election interference investigation. the judge presiding over that case, judge tanya chutkan, set a trial date of march 4th, 2024, adding to trump's already very full political and legal calendars that month. and that was not the only significant date that was set today. arraignments in the fulton county case were set for september 6th. trump's arraignment will be at 9:30 a.m. that day. the rest of the 18 co-defendants including rudy giuliani and mark meadows will continue after that at 15-minute intervals. and that is where we start this hour with "atlanta journal-constitution" political reporter greg bluestein and former deputy assistant attorney general and former united states attorney harry litman. welcome to both of you. thank you for being with us. harry, i just want to parse the mark meadows thing for a second. there are two legal arguments he's making. one is that what he was doing was acting as a chief of staff

for a government that was interested in free and fair elections. and two, that there was nothing illegal about what he was doing. this georgia indictment refutes both of those things in great detail. so in some ways he's sort of trying to try the facts of the case at this point. >> he is. because he's forced to. because otherwise, he wouldn't want to testify, which can really expose him. you're really right, ali, that the two arguments are related. i just want to be -- make a little bit of a lawyer's precise point to say if he's right then it trumps, as it were, the state charges. that is, if he was acting as a chief of staff, the supremacy clause, no less, says a state can't subject him to criminal penalties. there have been cases under it involving murder, for example. so he is really all in on trying to argue not just removal. it's a two-step. this is the first step.

and then the second is to basically say there was a nexus he repeated and you said he repeated at the hearing to federal law which means he would be subject to immunity down the line. he's got to do removal first but his lookout is immunity that would make the whole thing go away for him. >> so greg, i know you're not a lawyer, but you cover this closely. clearly there's an implication here that fani willis would have known about, right? when you are charging some of these people, some of them are going to make a case that we were acting as agents of the federal government, or whatever the case is. some of it's entirely nonsensical. there are a few of the people who have been charged who are trying to get their cases moved who were pretending to be electors, who signed elector documents. you can't make a claim that something like that is under federal protection because it's actually a crime and that's going to be easy to prove. on the other hand, fani willis knew this was coming. what is she doing about it? >> you're exactly right. she knew this was coming. she's been preparing for this

case for more than two years. they've prepared for all sorts of eventualities. there are motions to slow down the case, motions to speed it up, motions to move it to the federal court. we're not only seeing a preview of trump's arguments we're also seeing a preview of her arguments happening now in federal court. that's why this is the first true big litigation battle involving this indictment. and the outcome's really going to shape the rest of this case because as you mentioned earlier, if mark meadows is successful other litigants with move to remove this case to federal court. and this is exactly what fani willis does not want. she's prepared for this eventuality but she does not want that. she wants all 19 defendants to be tried together in fulton county court. >> harry, let's explore this a little bit. there are five defendants who have asked to remove their cases to federal court. mark meadows of course on that list. former justice department official jeffrey clark. former republican party chairman david shafer. georgia state senator shaun still, who was one of the fake

electors. and cathy latham, former gop chair for coffee county. assuming there's any merit to any of these arguments, is mark meadows's argument substantially stronger than the rest of them? >> yeah, i think so. first, as you point out, the three electors, they really have very little to stand on. jeffrey clark, he's charged in the indictment with writing a real -- a false memo about georgia. not very strong argument that he was acting as a federal official. meadows has the best argument, and it's sort of how you conceptualize his conduct, that he was being chief of staffy, the way he was supposed to be. by the way, ali, to that five i think you can add a sixth. donald trump. he wants to wait 30 days, which is the statutory limit for maximum delay, but i think you will see him trying to remove. i think also, though, like the other five, his arguments are poor. so meadows really is the one person who stands a chance of

escaping his fate in this removal slash immunity effort. >> greg bluestein, if you read the counts, count 1 of 41 in the georgia count lists everybody who's charged, all 19, right? top one is donald trump. then it's giuliani, eastman, meadows, cheseboro, clark and jenna ellis. so for sure we know donald trump knew every one of them because he was working with them. after that it's a whole bunch of people from georgia mostly. with a couple of exceptions. donald trump said the other day i don't even know who some of these people are. which is i guess entirely possible. they may have been in on the enterprise without him knowing them or texting them -- he doesn't text anybody. or speaking on the phone with them. tell me about this. because many of these people at the bottom half of the list are important people in the republican infrastructure in georgia. >> yeah, you're right. i mean, some of them even people in political circles in georgia hadn't really heard of before this. but some of them are very important people in the republican infrastructure. david shafer, the former gop

chair, who's accused of orchestrating the fake elector scheme in georgia. donald trump certainly knew david shafer. david shafer had donald trump's endorsement to run for the georgia gop chair a few years ago and won by a huge margin because he had donald trump's support. they've appeared on stage together. you know, i'm not really sure about some of the other players in this. shawn still was a secretary. he was an officer in the georgia gop before he was a state senator. he might have run across donald trump at different republican events but he's not someone who donald trump might remember knowing. but certainly david shafer was in that orbit and speaking on stage at donald trump events repeatedly throughout the 2020 cycle. >> of some of the people, harry, who've either asked to have their cases moved to federal court or who asked for a speedy trial, there's one commonality amongst a bunch of them and they talk about how they did what they did at the direction of donald trump. there's this idea that i did not know -- if i was involved in any lawlessness it wasn't at my initiation and maybe i wasn't

really clear on that. tell me about that argument. >> yeah. that's what makes even the small fry, as greg was talking about, so dangerous for trump. so shaub still, who he just mentioned. he has come out of the box saying i did what i did at the direction of the president of the united states, not just team trump. so that is testimony. and this is what you want when you indict a lot of people. there are down sides. but the upside is people start pointing the fingers at one another. so you're going to have people in georgia step forward and say this was all trump's doing or team trump's doing. and that is a, you know, dagger to the heart of the president and the other higher-up folks because if it's credited by a jury it more or less inculpates them right there on the main rico charge. >> greg, how does this play out in georgia politics? because a whole bunch of people in the georgia republican political infrastructure are named either as indicted co-conspirators or unindicted

co-conspirators. is this like a mafia operation where a whole lot of people have been taken out at the top or is there still a republican infrastructure in georgia that survives despite this? >> that's a good question because we're seeing it play out right now in georgia. the georgia gop, the actual republican party, is very closely aligned with donald trump, very closely aligned with the sort of farther right factions in georgia politics. and you're also seeing the governor, governor brian kemp, the secretary of state raffensperger, other republican officials kind of distancing themselves from the state party. brian kemp has actually started his own parallel organization in boycott of the georgia gop's convention at which donald trump just spoke at just a few months ago in west georgia. so there's parallel structures going on now that really kind of reflects the parallel republican parties. there's the pro-trump republicans who still might be dominant in georgia but there's also the more mainstream republicans who still might vote for donald trump. they want to steer clear for him especially right now. >> i want to go back to the mark meadows thing with you, harry. i want to just play the audio.

the perfect phone call, satellite we've heard about the perfect phone call. we all remember donald trump asking brad raffensperger to find the votes that he needs. some people may not remember, mark meadows was also involved in that phone call. let's just play a clip of that. >> what i'm hopeful for is there some way that we can -- we can find some kind of an agreement to look at this a little bit more fully. mr. secretary, i can tell you, you say there were only two dead people that would vote. i can promise you there are more. >> how does that all fit into meadows' role that he was kind of watching, just kind of observing, he was kind of a liaison? that does feel smoking gunnish. >> i agree. that's a flat out lie, i think, and that is the lies in meadows' more sort of milquetoasty way, that is exactly what is the anchor of the rico charges. and this shows the perils of his

testifying because things like that are going to be thrown back at him. the hearing is ongoing, by the way. the judge is giving it full berth. there will be half an hour closing arguments for both sides tomorrow. meadows isn't done yet. so yeah, he's looking at really being roughed up on cross-examination and obviously he's concluded it is worth the risk. but the risks are high. and by the way, one more point, once he says these things they're out of the box. they are now usable in every proceeding forever. he has now, you know -- their inpull pa tory value is on him and he can't get it off. >> greg, for the non-lawyers here we've learned a lot about georgia, it's not necessarily the legal stuff but the idea georgia's rico laws are different from federal laws. you can include more things, you can tell a better story. but the speedy trial thing is also unusual to georgia. so the three people who have made speedy trial requests, kenneth cheseboro, sidney powell

and john eastman, or at least expected to, i believe, john eastman, under georgia law that means that they can get their trial in the current session of the court or the next session of the court. these three, i don't know what the thinking is but they might be banking on the fact that fani willis isn't ready to go or won't be able to go by october. her response has been ready to go. you want to go on october 23rd? i'll meet you there. >> yeah, if they were bluffing, fani willis just called their bluff. and again, as we said earlier, she spent two years on this case. she has her documents ready. she is ready to go. and she showed by signaling that she's ready for an october date that again, if they were bluffing she's ready. they could also pull back that motion, and the prosecutors here say they can pull back this motion. they still have to look at discovery. there's a lot of other moving parts in this too. this could all be a feint by these two defendants who've

already filed these motions but as it sounds now at least a sector of this trial is moving up to october. >> so harry, i guess look, in a perfect world a prosecutor would like if they're indicting 19 people to try 19 people all at the same time and not have confusing starts and stops. but again, fani willis must have known that this was a possibility. she seemed to respond very quickly that yep, ready to go. what do you believe this was? do you think it was a fake? do you think they were testing the system, they were trying to call her bluff? >> two things. you know, she's got the burden beyond a reasonable doubt. so i think they were hoping maybe that they have the -- you know, they have to hurry up but she's got to double hurry up. and so that was one. and by the way, what she said, you're right, she was ready but she had to do that because it's a constitutional and statutory right under georgia law. and the second, it was cheseboro who came out of the box with this and did it first. i think he wanted to separate himself. it's almost like a motion to sever, but it's much more sure to succeed. but now in this lifeboat with him all of a sudden he finds

sidney powell and john eastman, not the prettiest trio to go to trial when he wanted to go alone. but i don't think he has any way to prevent that. but now it looks a little bit different for a guy who wanted to separate himself out from the rest of the, to quote pence's memorable phrase, gaggle of crackpot lawyers. >> greg, in georgia and arizona and pennsylvania and michigan and all these places where all these things were attempted, there's another consequence to democracy and it is the threat to officials in the state. you've got new reporting on this. >> yeah. georgia lawmakers are receiving threats. and these are coming from both sides of the party line. republicans and democrats are receiving threats from trump supporters. we're not really sure who they're receiving threats from. but we know they're receiving threats, harassing phone calls. and part of it is also a movement by far right -- a far

right republican senator who is claiming wrongly that there could be a special session to oust fani willis. now, there's no votes for that. it would require democratic votes. but he's inspired enough trump supporters to make them think this is possible. and now you're hearing from republican senators telling him to knock it off because it's leading to more dangerous threats. the same sort of threats we saw here in georgia in 2020 after donald trump's defeat here. >> guys, i appreciate your time. greg bluestein and harry litman, we appreciate you being with us this afternoon. when we return, amid donald trump's four indictments there's also a lawsuit brought by members of congress and the naacp that the ex-president violated the ku klux klan act by conspiring with white supremacist groups in the build-up to january 6th. the lead plaintiff in that suit is going to join us after a break. also ahead the argument raised by legal scholars on both sides of the political spectrum that donald trump is constitutionally ineligible from returning to the white house is gaining steam. two new developments to tell you about on that front. and later, how foreign governments are on edge over the

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donald trump faces four different criminal cases, each with a stunning and unprecedented number of criminal charges, and at least three of those cases will now go to trial within the next year. but the ex-president's legal liability doesn't end there. a civil lawsuit brought by a group of democratic lawmakers led by the california congresswoman barbara lee alleges that the ex-president and his allies incited the violent riot at the capitol on january 6th and is seeking

damages. joining us now is the democratic congresswoman barbara lee of california, the lead plaintiff in the naacp lawsuit against donald trump over the conspiracy to defraud the government. congresswoman, thank you for being with us. >> thank you. nice to be here. >> you filed this before a lot of this action was in play and obviously we've had a very, very busy few weeks with indictments and the scheduling of trials. tell me where your case in your world fits into this whole, you know, tree of cases that donald trump is facing in the next year. >> sure. we filed this lawsuit actually before the january 6th committee was constituted. and basically, we lay out in our lawsuit that the assault on the capitol, on january 6th, was an assault on the democratic process and threatened the peaceful transfer of power. this was an attempted coup. and this was the deadliest attack on the united states capitol since the war of 1812.

the naacp, first of all, has led this lawsuit. i'm the lead plaintiff. we have about ten members of congress. and there are three things that we are seeking. one is accountability for those whom we allege were principal architects of this assault on the capitol and on our democratic process. and also we seek monetary relief to redress the harm that each of us suffered and to punish those who were the principal architects of the attack and to deter others from engaging in the conduct in the future. and of course we're seeking injunctive relief to prevent this from happening again in the future. now, the district court was supportive in terms of our position, in terms of indicating that -- and the judge said this very clearly, that donald trump is not immune is. and so now we're in the court of appeals in washington, d.c. waiting on a decision because of course donald trump and the proud boys and the oath keepers who we filed this lawsuit

against, they did appeal the decision of the lower court. >> in your opinion does the success of your lawsuit benefit from or rely on any of the other things that are going on? is there anything in any of these other cases that will help you in moving your case forward? >> no, ali, this is a civil suit. this is a suit based on the fact that members of congress were thwarted from exercising their responsibility and the assault was a violent assault that really went at the core of the peaceful transfer of power. so this has nothing to do with the criminal lawsuits that are moving forward. but our suit is of course a civil lawsuit based on the complaints and the issues that i just laid out. >> let me -- i want to quote from the lawsuit. the plaintiffs bring this action against the defendants for conspiring to prevent them and other members of congress from discharging these official

duties in violation of 42 u.s. code section 19851, enacted as the ku klux klan act in 1871. section 19851 was intended to protect against conspiracies that by force, intimidation or threat sought to prevent members of congress from discharging their official duties, end quote. that's from your actual case that you've put forward. this sounds like some of the things that the january 6th committee was talking about. it sounds like the things that jack smith talks about in the january 6th report. it sounds like the stuff that fani willis talks about, right? that there was an actual orchestrated effort to stop a government function and deprive members of congress and by extension the american people of their rights. >> sure. and also, this complaint is based on the ku klux klan act of

1871, which in essence was during reconstruction. and then it was really to prevent intimidation and the use of violence to prevent acts of violence against people -- black people especially to thwart voting rights, to thwart attacks with regard to the constitutional rights of african americans. so this was a direct attack then on the african american community's right to participate in our democracy. and here we are now in 2023 with many of the same issues that we addressed -- that they addressed way back in 1871. >> what is your sense -- interesting that you told us about this connection to the ku klux klan and reconstruction. what's your sense of the elements of these white nationalist and racist groups that have actually faced some consequences already? because you're talking about targeting the architects of all of that. do you consider them part of the architecture of january 6th or part of the mob? >> well, they're working

together, all of them. the oath keepers, the proud boys, donald trump. and so this is a lawsuit against donald trump, the proud boys and the oath keepers. they were conspiring. and they assaulted the capitol. and they nearly, almost threatened the peaceful transfer of power. so they did this together. and that's why the lawsuit and the complaints are against all three of them. >> congresswoman, it is good to talk to you. thank you for letting us -- bringing us up to speed on where your complaint and your case stands. congresswoman barbara lee, democratic representative from california. when we return, officials in another key battleground state look into whether donald trump may be constitutionally ineligible to serve as president under the 14th amendment. we're going to have that story after a short break. at story aftea r short break. ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time.

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the idea that donald trump might be barred from ever holding public office again caught our attention last week when the conservative judge michael luttig and the liberal constitutional legal scholar laurence tribe jointly endorsed the theory that trump is disqualified based on section 3 of the 14th amendment, which says that nobody who's taken an oath to support the constitution of the united states if they engage in insurrection or rebellion against the united states can hold any federal, state, or military office. i paraphrased there. the idea is now gaining momentum. on friday an attorney in florida filed a suit trying to

disqualify donald trump from the 2024 race. now in new hampshire the secretary of state, david scanlon, is seeking legal advice on whether he can take trump's name off the ballot. scanlon telling "the boston globe" that "not being a lawyer and not wanting to make a decision in a vacuum, i will be soliciting some legal opinions on what is appropriate or not before i make any decision." one lawyer giving scanlon his opinion is a former trump-endorsed senate candidate. corky messner. who's joined the growing chorus of legal minds arguing that the former president may be ineligible to run again. joining our conversation is the former maryland congresswoman and msnbc contributor donna edwards. plus former congressman from florida and msnbc political analyst david jolly. good afternoon to the two of you. it is great to see you. thanks to donald trump, donna, i not only carry around a bunch of indictments, which really does make it a little hard on the back, but i carry around the much smaller pocket copy of the united states constitution. and it does say if you took an

oath in favor of the constitution, as both of you have done, and then you get involved in an insurrection, you can't hold office again. at the state level, at the federal level, or in the military. i mean, obviously everything's open for interpretation but it is kind of there in black and white. >> well, it is. it's actually a very simple and straightforward section of the 14th amendment. and although it has to be tested i think in the courts, i think this is exactly the opportunity to do that. because when you look at it the part that interests me is the part that says or given aid and comfort. and i think there's no argument that donald trump has given aid and comfort to those who also committed insurrection. so i think there are a number of ways in which this section could be applied to donald trump and could be successful. and i think, you know, there are those -- whether they're voters

or candidates who could make the argument. >> so that becomes the problem, david jolly. when i had judge luttig and laurence tribe on the show to discuss this, my question became who does -- who enforces this? how do you actually get this thing done? and that becomes a little complicated because, a, as donna says, it will probably have to be tested. but b, the secretary of states probably have to be involved in this. >> yeah, ali, look, this is an ambitious application of the 14th amendment but a worthwhile one to pursue in the courts and in some venue with due process for the candidate, for donald trump. but the language is clear and i think we all saw with our eyes what donald trump engaged in. so it's a worthwhile effort to suggest the 14th amendment could indeed prohibit him from sevening as a candidate. but for those who suggest -- some have determined that it's self-executing, that an election official just on their own discretion o'could rule donald trump ineligible.

i think clearly even for the non-lawyers you'd realize there has to be some level of due process for donald trump to be disqualified. and so that's where some of these lawsuits come in. that's where an administrative hearing by a secretary of state comes in. at some point the due process kicks in that would allow for judicial review. this is going all the way to the supreme court if this gets tried. if one of the states tries to disqualify donald trump from their state ballot. and it should. because if we are talking about eliminating his qualification for the ballot for the presidency based on an insurrection charge when he has not yet been found guilty in a court of law, the supreme court should render judgment on that, and we would be healthier as a democracy to have final judgment. questions of course as to what the supreme court could do could be left to each one of us to decide. >> right. so then, donna, the problem becomes who proves an insurrection because what the constitution is silent about is what the determination of either an insurrection or a rebellion or providing aid and comfort looks like. donald trump will say up and

down all day he did no such thing and it's never been proved. one can say he's been impeached. one can say there's a commission. but to david's point what happens until there's a judgment by a court of law about what donald trump did? because any of these indictments that i have indicate he was involved in an industry rex against the united states. none of them have been proved. >> well, and there are plenty of people, not just regular ordinary voters but also elected officials, who claim there was no insurrection. so obviously this requires proof. it's a fact. it has to be proven as a fact. i think david is right, that the candidate has to have his day in court. in order to defend against that before he's thrown off of any ballot. but it seems to me that even if one secretary of state acted in one state that obviously that does not deal with the question of the elections that are going to take place and his name on

the ballot and a whole bunch of other states. so it seems to me that the most -- the best way to resolve this question, to move it forward, would be for a candidate like a chris christie or asa hutchinson to raise the question. they are the two who stood on that stage and didn't raise their hands about pardoning donald trump. so it seems to me that if this is going to move forward beyond a legal theory then it's going to have to move forward in some kind of as david said administrative or court procedure. >> let's explore that a little bit, this idea that someone who can claim standing or injury might have a role in this. you mentioned another candidate. so there's a co-founder of the federalist society steven calabrese who wrote in a blog post this month saying maybe chris christie could sue to do this. laurence tribe had then tweeted the tweet you see on your screen

or the x whatever you call p t. steven calabrese the co-founder of the federalist society has argued that chris christie is legally injured by trum's name being on the ballot. but if it's real impact christie seeks a better move might be to first ask a secretary of state to remove trump. then judge luttig tweeted on top of that to say maybe chris christie and asa hutchinson could get together and seek legal judgment. i guess this is the throw the spaghetti at the wall portion of this discussion, david. it may not be elegant and perfect but we're now a few years into this thing and nobody's got an answer for the question what is donald trump. >> that's right. and look, inelegant is probably the right word but it is absolutely a worthwhile effort. and that's the important thing here. at some point you have to create a finding of fact by somebody. you would like that to be by a court but it could be by a secretary of state. how do you get a finding of fact? typically it is not self-executed. it is because somebody petitions to an administrative or legal body. so in this case chris christie could go before the courts and

suggest he has legal standing to bring this. but he could simply petition a secretary of state. in new hampshire or one other state that might be friendly to such a consideration. and that then begins the process by which donald trump could be afforded due process. there could be appeals and as we all know inevitably the supreme court would have to decide. i do think, ali, it's important to kind of widen the aperture and realize, though, that this is all part of an effort to save democracy and in some ways save the republic from the existential question we likely face. donald trump is likely to win the republican nomination. he is seeking to be reelected for the sake of retribution and absolution of his own criminal activity. and to achieve that he will have to shred the constitution. so whether it's one of the four indictments or whether it is going after his eligibility under the 14th amendment, it's a worthwhile endeavor. >> and some argue it may be none of those, it might be the vote in the 2024 election. who knows? this is an unanswered question. thanks to both of you, good

friends donna edwards and david jolly. we appreciate you spending time with us. when we return president biden has made it his politician to restore america's standing on the world stage which is why so many foreign governments are worried about what could happen if donald trump wins back the white house. happen if donald trump wins back the white house. struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults.

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as i said in my inaugural address, we will repair our alliances and engage with the world once again. >> president biden on february the 4th, 2021, in one of his first addresses as president, vowing to repair the damage that donald trump had wrought internationally. now as the world contemplates the grim reality that donald trump could once again be the republican nominee for president and the president of the united states, the international community is bracing itself for a return to the chaos, the authoritarianism, and the poorly thought out policies that were his calling card for four years. we're already getting a preview with his proposal last week for a universal 10% tariff on all imports. this plan has created concerns about an international trade war, which could cause breaks with our allies and heighten tensions with already hostile countries. new reporting by the "wall street journal" highlights the uncertainty and fear hanging in the air writing, "for many foreign capitals the possibility of a second trump administration is a source of anxiety.

others, including beijing and moscow, see potential benefits from trump whom they view as a transactional leader who might be willing to strike deals to ease tension in hot spots such as ukraine and taiwan, according to analysts." i want to bring in the former deputy national security adviser to president obama, ben rhodes, and u.s. special correspondent for bbc studios katty kay. welcome to both of you. katty, let me start with you because you've got a foot in the rest of the world and how people think about this. it's not cut and dry. there are some place that's worry very deeply about donald trump and the effects of another presidency and there are some people that are pretty hopeful that donald trump is the president of the united states again. >> yeah, i think that's worth pointing out, ali, because it's not as if the whole of the rest of the world is sitting there in fear at the prospect of another trump term. i spent over a month in europe over the course of the surnl and it's true that many of america's traditional allies in europe are anxious. they're kind of just waking up, which is why the "wall street journal" article is just the latest. you've had one in the

"washington post," you've had one in the "new york times" over the course of the summer saying pretty much the same thing, that allies in europe are waking up to the prospect that donald trump could be the republican nominee, could well be the republican nominee, and that gives him, what, a 46% to 47% chance of winning the white house just because he's the head of the republican party. but there are countries that might well welcome it. even in europe. you think of viktor orban in hungary. possibly poland, although that's complicated by ukraine. presumably vladimir putin in russia. maybe the chinese would be happy to have another trump presidency as well. the north koreans would probably be happy to have another trump presidency as well. if you kind of divide the world into those with sort of populist, autocratic tendencies, and those with much more democratic-leaning tendencies, that's pretty much the way the split goes when it comes to how much they would welcome or not welcome a donald trump second term. >> ben, what i'm curious about here is we know people interfere in elections. we know people get involved. when i say interfere, i mean overtly and covertly. katty just mentioned, china

would be interested in donald trump again. russia would certainly be interested in donald trump again. viktor orban is the one guy in nato who's not that thrilled by the nato humpty dumpty being put back on the wall again. you've got israel. you've got saudi arabia at the top of the list. a whole bunch of people who think this is good. they all could put their thumb on the scale one way or the other. obviously china being the most effective at being able to put their thumb on the scale. >> yeah. and look, i want to put a fine point on the russia piece of this, ali, first of all, because it's not just that putin has a preference. it's kind of existential. because if donald trump gets in there we are cutting off assistance to ukraine. i don't think there's any question about that. there's a question if we even save nato. i think this is already having an impact on the war. because if you're vladimir putin your entire strategy for the war is to hold a stalemate and hold on for donald trump. right? so for donald trump this election is about staying out of prison. for vladimir putin this election could be about the success or the failure of his war in ukraine. so it's not just that russia might have an incentive to have

trump. it's that they have a massive incentive to do so. then if you aed in the other countries, you're talking about china and russia, countries with enormous capacity to mount social media information and disinformation and misinformation campaigns. then you're talking about countries like saudi arabia and israel and the united arab emirates who might be more inclined to support trump under their current governments, particularly in israel. those are countries that have a history of having some influence in washington, american politics. so you're talking about the kinds of countries that might look favorably on a trump presidency are also the ones that would be best positioned to have their voices heard one way or another in this election. and for some of them, particularly for putin, there is a lot at stake. and so i think this is a dynamic of the upcoming election that demands more attention. >> but it is interesting, katty because even if you give it the attention -- i maintain that in 20 years people will look back at joe biden and say he took this nato that was a mess under

donald trump and made it into, you know, a fighting force that may in the end bring russia to its knees. it doesn't move the needle for joe biden at home. it virtually doesn't move the needle at all. let's put it that way. american voters don't seem particularly concerned with this matter about america's standing in the world and global security and the advancement of democracy around the world. >> no. i mean, foreign affairs did come up in the republican debate, which is interesting. it came up quite a lot when it came to the issue of ukraine and russia and then also of china. so i think we did see some focus in the election campaign on that. but you can flip this too, ali, and i think you have to ask what's the european response to this going to be? europe, as you say, has been reinvigorated by joe biden, partly by the invasion of ukraine, but certainly america's leadership has done extraordinary things for nato and arguably for the european union. now europe has to ask itself, right, well, if we cannot rely

on america because it could be back to america first and a withdrawal from multilateral organizations, what's europe going to do then? how does it get itself into a position where it has a viable foreign policy of its own, security apparatus of its own, tries to tie america perhaps more into the remainder of joe biden's presidency that we know that donald trump managed to respiratory those up in his first term as well. what is happening? america's domestic policies and politics provides a co-nun drum for others around the world. it's left europe in a bit of a crossroads. how do we handle this unstable uncertain america going forward. >> it did come up at the debate mostly china because that's a slightly lower hanging fruit for most people but with respect to russia it was nikki haley who finally told vivek ramaswamy, you seem to be a simpleton about this and don't know what you're talking about.

there was this america first, ukraine is not involved. we don't need to spend on ukraine and nikki haley did score a couple points by telling him, you're going to put us in danger with your foreign policy views. >> yeah, i mean, she may have scored points with the audience. the reality is donald trump has set the tone and agenda for that party on ukraine and the assistance to ukraine and you saw vivek ramaswamy and others who are kind of competing for that maga lane of the republican party swerve in the direction of cutting off assistance for ukraine. and that's going to meet a test on capitol hill in the coming weeks. sure, are there republican voters that would be uncomfortable with doing that, absolutely, because of the legacy of that party generally supporting more interventionist support for american allies abroad. that's just not the republican party anymore. nikki haley represents the republican opposition, you know, that we were facing in the obama administration in, say, 2009, not the party of donald trump

and vivek ramaswamy today. and i think that that's what countries around the world are also absorbing is that maybe this isn't just trump, that there is a more profound shift that's taken place inside the republican party that is not the same party they're accustomed to dealing with. i've dealt with these countries around the world. they tend to think of republicans as kind of george w. bush type republicans, hawkish interventionist type people and they're not only acclimating them to the possibility that donald trump might be elected but having to acclimate themselves to the reality that a major political party is essentially isolationalist and extremist in its orientation and without trump, by the way, that's more likely to be where that party ends up than where nikki haley was in that debate and i think that's something that is being adjusted in capitals around the world as well. >> you're both right. this requires a lot more attention and we'll continue to discuss it, ben rhodes and katty kay. a quick break for us.

we'll be right back.

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