nicolle wallace. i have my phone in my hand because we have brand if you news in out of fulton county, georgia, that i'm working with my producers and our legal experts to make sense of for you. i want to read it for you. it is a filing just uploaded by the fulton county district attorney. it is a request to the court, the salient part here is that the court -- the fulton count district attorney is asking that the trial for all 19 defendants get underway on october 23rd. this was the date that was set for cheesebro's trial and it was a speedy trial request and there are a few other defendants who are making the same request. fani willis is saying we want to try everybody together and we're ready to go and no longer say that the request that was granted to ken chesebro and does

not apply to the other co-defendants. we're seeing a request that the trial go forward starting on october the 23rd. i want to get to our reporters and our legal experts now. to make sense of this because this is my interpretation of it which could prove to be entirely incorrect. but i got glenn kirshner. this came out about a minute before the show started. so i don't know if you had a chance to read it or make sense of it. but tell me what you know. >> i had your producer read it into my ear just moments ago, ali. so i think i understand what is going on here. so under georgia state law, a speedy trial means that a defendant should be taken to trial during the present term of court or the next term of court. that would be the end of october. we already know that defendant ken cheesebro has been set for october 23rd. we know sidney powell made a

speedy trial and we assume she'll be batched together with ken cheesebro. that is the natural thing to do. batch co-defendants together. fani willis has now said we're ready to go to trial. the speedy trial law is what it is and we are prepared to give all 19 co-defendants a speedy trial and we would like them all set for trial on october 23rd. what i predict, ali, is that that is going to result in a chorus of voices from many of the co-defendants saying not so fast, we're not demanding a speedy trial, in fact, we're prepared to waive our speedy trial rights and we're going to need far more time to prepare. it will be really interesting now to see what judge mcafee does now that fani willis is prepared to give everyone their speedy trial. >> i'm going to work through this with you while you're with me. i'm reading from this document.

it said on august 25th, 2023, defendant sidney powell also filed a speedy trial demand. the state maintained its position that severance is improper at this juncture and all defendants should be tried together. but at an absolute minimum, the court should set defendant powell's trial and that of any other defendant who may file a speedy trial demand on the same day as defendant chesebro. but the argument that she's making, that the judge is going to have to consider, severance is improper. what is the basis of arguing that severance in a case like this is improper? >> so, ali, any time we indict a co-defendant case, the prosecutors have a keen interest in keeping all the defendants in the same trial. the defendants ordinary try to

get themselves removed from or severed out of the joint trial. why is that? because any time co-defendants are tried separate from their fellow co-defendants, and i've had this happen many times as a prosecutor, they will make what they call the empty chair defense. so i could almost promise you that one of, for example, defendant cheesebro's defenses, if he's sitting there alone or with sidney powell and one or two other co-conspirators, charmed co-defendants, i could almost see him saying, you know what, john eastman, the constitutional scholar, the law school dean, who should be sitting in that empty chair right there, but he's not. he is the true architect behind the alternate electors scheme because he assured me there was legal support for it. i'm not saying that is a winning argument. i'm not even saying it is a

factually supportive argument. but pointing to the empty chair, and saying the person who should be sitting here another charged co-defendant is the far more culpable person, often can resonate with jurors as a facture matter, maybe gave them some reasonable doubt and hang up one juror, so it is a hung jury rather than a unanimous verdict. so prosecutors true i to keep co-defendants together. co-defendants try to split themselves out from the pack. >> and by the way, i have tammar hellerman from the atlantic journal constitution and carol letting. this came just out so i want to squeeze all of the juice i can out of glenn on this. georgia said you are entitled if you ask for a sfeedy trial to get it in the current or the next court session which is how we arrived at this date of october 23rd. there is no correlating law that you have to get your -- do your trial fast. so if any of the 19

co-defendants say not interested in starting on october 23rd, are they likely to get that wish granted? >> yeah, the reality is, ali, these are discretionary calls by the judge. so if the defendant said, no, no, no, i want to waive my right to a speedy trial, rarely, i don't know if in 30 years seen a judge force a defendant to trial. yes, we have the example of judge chutkan just setting a fairly prompt trial. but not within the 70 days as required by the federal speedy trial act. but you know what, if a defendant said judge, i want more time and i need more time to absorb the mountain of discovery provided by the prosecutors, i want to waive my right to a speedy trial, i think most judges would be loathe to overrule that request. >> glenn, i'll give you a chance

to take a sip. you have about 30 seconds while i tell our viewers what we were going to discuss. and that is that late this afternoon, another development came out of fulton county in the trial before the trial. the u.s. district judge steve jones who is tasked with granting or denying mark meadow's request to have his trial moved to federal court, filed an order asking for more information from both parties. information that he said he'll need before making a ruling. now, it is a singular question. on a singular issue. which i'm going to ask our experts about in just a moment. but before i tell you about that, there had as been a cascade of vital new information from inside of the courthouse yesterday. this is still the meadows case. giving real shape to meadow's strategy and how the district attorney fani willis plans to maintain control of her prosecution. now we should acknowledge that meadow's decision to take the stand at all was remarkable. it was a gamble. it was seen as a last-ditch hail mary chips on the table strategy

and meadows risked a lot, through almost four hours of testimony including cross-examination. equally astounding is the big picture. this trial before the trial so to speak was the very first time a trump associate has testified in open court about the disgraced ex-president's action after the election. an if his actions were made in his capacity as a federal official, for a move to federal court, he insisted there was a federal nexus to everything that he did. and he said investigating sote voter fraud was a side task for him. it was kind of a chore. something he needed to cross off the list in order to get trump to focus on other pressing matters. quote, i just needed to land the plane, end quote, as meadows described it and the defense argued that meadow's duties were federal operations. georgia prosecutors, though, about half a dozen of them at the hearing yesterday took

exception to that arguing the intersection between trump's administration and his campaign means that the scope of meadow's day-to-day responsibilities went far beyond his role as a federal official. we're also learning more about what the georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger provided. we understand the state played four clips from the phone call where trump asked him to find him votes. raffensperger testified that the attempt was in his words extraordinary. again, this is going to be judge steve jones' decision to make. whenever he decides to make it. he's made clear that moving quickly is understandable given the time line and that was before we found out about this potentially shifting timeline for everyone's trial to begin on october 23rd. whether or not that happens. but given how little case law there is to rely on, and the monumental nature of this decision, he's taking his time.

until he has the answers, he's not going to do it. and the judge said if i don't have an answer for you on this, you into he had to get yourself arraigned the way you're supposed to on september 6th. glenn kirshner is with me. and carol letting is with us. the national investigator for "the washington post" and tamar hellerman, from the atlanta journal constitution and tamara, i want to spend time with you because you spent time watching this in court. it is hard to distinguish between all of the legal things happening in country around donald trump. it is like a pig pen dust cloud. but this is fascinating. mark meadows in a little mini trial, he's getting cross-examined to make the argument that you people in this court should not have jurisdiction over trying me. tell me what you saw and witnessed and experienced? >> well, the former chief of

staff provided a real window into what his job was like particularly in the last weeks of administration. he talked about landing the plane in terms of sorting out who won the 2020 election but he described it as part of a kind of one of month duties that he was trying to accomplish in last couple of weeks. especially as they looked ahead to the peaceful transition of power. he seemed like he wants to get this out of the way so they could focus on the other things going on. and so this was kind of a to-do, to get out of the way and that is why he was involved in this. he talked a lot about how being a chief of staff requires him to know what was going on in every aspect as much as he could and kind of looking around the corner in anticipating what the former president might want to know about. that is why he said, he went to go visit for example a cobb county audit of absentee ballots here in georgia around the christmas holiday. he said that trump did not direct him to go, but he was already in town visiting his adult children and that he

figured that trump might ask him about it so he wanted to get ahead of the curve. >> carol, it is interesting, because mark short has commented on this, mark short ultimately working for the vice president, former vice president mike pence. he said, let's play it. >> i wouldn't say this is all my official capacity. if that was true, then why he was circumvented all of white house counsel's advice. why wasn't pat cipollone involved or doj involved? instead mark recruited outside lawyers who he wanted to listen to. >> and so i rely on you, carol, as a veteran reporter, there was a time when the chief of staff to the president of the united states was the big office. they were not taking orders from other people. they were the one who was telling the president, this is out of line. can't do that. and to mark short's point, this is not mark meadow's business to be doing on his own. there is white house counsel and other people he could have

relied upon. so it is interesting how he's trying to paint the whole picture of the mark meadows show trying to land the plane and keeping everybody in order doing my job. >> absolutely, ali. and what is interesting about the landing the plane statement is that while meadows testified in court the other day that he didn't necessarily believe all of the fraud allegations, but he felt like it was his job to be with the president, to figure out if some of them were true. what he was saying behind closed doors in the white house was, landing the plane was let's get to transition. donald trump is going to keep complaining there is a rigged election but we're going to be transitioning and leaving this white house on january 20th. that is what landing the plane meant to many of mark meadows compatriots in the white house which were essentially, i don't want to say indulging donald trump, but sometimes sort of

patting him on the back and being like, okay, you think these were rigged. we have no evidence of that. but okay, good. we'll keep looking into that. that was kind of the role meadow was playing. i think that mark short has an interesting point because george willigger, a interest lawyer representing mark meadows, makes this pretty strong claim, hey, it was all part of his federal job. short is saying, a lot of this looks political. a lot of this looks like it wasn't a executive office of the president role. i do think that there is a challenge for fani willis here. because some of the things that she claimed that mark meadows was engaged in don't sound criminal. visiting an area that was auditing things for whether or not signatures were properly verified. arranging a phone call. attending an event in a meeting

with the president. visiting another meeting with the president. that is pretty much official biz for most. a want to say one more thing before your previous section, the breaking news. that is really important because the story that prosecutors want to tell is the full story. and if they have to tell this story 19 times, or seven times, it is a mess. i would just point you to something at end of fani willis's motion to the judge in which she essentially asked for the chance to get clarity and also the chance to speak and argue about severing anyone from the case. she just needed to make a chance for an argument why severing is not going to work for her. it is one thing to say i have a speedy trial and then another person to say i want to be separate from of the rest of the folks and there may be a good

reason as glenn boibted out, to tell that once. >> thank you for that. i want to read the part you just referred to with the court in fulton county. the state of georgia respectfully seeked clarification from the court as to whether the court's intention was to receiver defendant's cheesebro's trial with the discretionary authority to do. so further if the court's intention was to severe the trial from the other defendants, because defendant has not filed a motion to receiver, and because the court has held no hearing on a motion to receiver, the state of georgia respectfully requested that the court set aside its case specific scheduling order and entering on august 24th, 2023, to the extent and it goes on. so you're -- it is a very important detail. which is why we rely on reporters like you, carol, to do that.

tamara, i want to go back to you on the argument carol is putting forward. generally speaking, most of what mark meadows was doing there is -- could be argued that it is a court of business. in the january 6 indictment, it actually speaks of mark meadow's somewhat glowingly. he's not talked about in this indictment at all. he showed up as carol said just to monitor some things. but there is a phone call. and he's on that phone call. and while he's not donald trump and not saying i'm going to break someone's legs or not talking mob like. the inferences that he's telling brad raffensperger, is there a way we could work together to solve this problem. how do you read that? >> and this is something that brad raffensperger was asked about yesterday during the hearing. and he mentioned how on the one hand this is a very extraordinary asker to the former president, kind of what he was leaning on raffensperger to do. but at the same time during cross-examination for meadows,

he mentioned that what meadows himself was asking wasn't that bothersome. so that could be an issue to the prosecution going forward. and there are -- the breaking news at the top of the show if you'll indulge me. the first has to do with willis keeping all 19 defendants together. remember at the heart of this case is a racketeering charge. and the prosecutors are trying to show that these 19 people were all working to advance one goal. which was to keep donald trump in the white house even though he did not win georgia or the 2020 election more broadly. it requires the d.a. to show all of the acts committed by these 19 people together. once she starts losing people, once they start getting severed, that story becomes a lot harder to tell. the second point i'm trying to make in terms of getting everybody to go together on october 23rd, they are going to be very complicated by the fact that the federal removal push is

happening. federal courts sometimes don't act super quickly and we're expecting appeals. it could go all the way up to the supreme court. so that is a huge barrier for d.a. willis in all of this. >> it looks like we planned this, having you and carol and glenn around for this breaking news that broke a minute before the show. glenn, i want to ask you about the thing that -- that the judge in this case, the meadows case is talking about. carol made a reference to george, meadow's attorney who insisted his client was operating, quote, under the color of his job as chief of staff in every intersection cited in the georgia indictment. he pressed about whether he believed to be any limitation to what his clients was allowed to do in his job as trump's chief of staff. he described meadows as a alter ego of trump and insisted he was acing as a federal authority of the executive branch. now hold that thought for a

second. now i'm going to you ask the question that the judge has asked both sides to respond to. and it said, would a finding that at least one but not all of the overt acts charged occurred under the color of meadow's office be sufficient for a federal removal of a criminal prosecution under section 28, united states code 1442-a1. how do you read that. i don't know what the words mean. so take this anywhere you like erk let's unravel this. kudos to the staff because they've been sending me things to speed read. i find this fascinating and just revealed myself as a law geek because i find this fascinating. first of all, what we could glean from the fact that judge jones is asking the party this question. we could glean that there is no binding legal authority, there is no appellate court precedent

that answers this question. because if there was, he wouldn't have to ask the parties -- >> he would have clerks positions on this. >> exactly. and then let's run with the language in this order. he said, what if one of the things, one of the overt acts, one of the things that mark meadows did was within the scope of his official duties, and let me add translation, was it criminal? was it wrong? he was acting as a legitimate chief of staff for the president. bu what if the other things were not? the question is, if only one thing he did in the indictment is within the scope of his official duties, is that enough to have the case transferred from state court to federal court? we don't know the answer to that. because there is no precedent apparently. but can i tell you, ali, where i read this as an ominous order

for meadows. because implicit in asking the question, what if one thing that he did was kind of okay but a whole bunch of other stuff he did was not okay because it wasn't within the scope of his official duties. what does that signaling? well, it is signaling maybe there is enough to have the case transferred to federal court and maybe there is not. but if there is enough to have it transferred, the federal court given that a bunch of the overt act, a bunch of his conduct, if we could draw a reasonable inference from the order, was beyond the scope of his official duties, mark meadows is in trouble and he's going to stand trial whether in state court or in federal court because everything he did wasn't within the scope of his official duties. so he will not enjoy immunity. he'll go to trial. so this is ominous on whether the case, whether mark meadows may be sent over to federal

court. but it is even more ominous for mark meadow's personally because it suggests he will probably go to trial one way or another. >> carol, this is interesting. because there are four other people who have made similar motions to have their cases removed to federal court. one of them jeffrey clark, there might be an interesting legal argument because he was almost the acting attorney general. he had a government position and we could argue about whether he was acting legitimately in his role or not. the other three were fake electors. they were fake. the fake part is like a halloween costume. you do don't get to -- if i dress up for halloween, i don't get federal protections for that? >> that's right, ali. and by the way, i think you're hitting on something really important. because the issue of acting under the color of your federal job makes sense for meadows. it makes sense in some respects. i'm not -- i'm not judge here. i'm not going to make a ruling

on whether or not all of these acts or were under his specific job. but if all of the candidates for this, he's got the strongest argument. he literally is located in the executive office of the president. clark's role gets weaker and weaker for a couple of reasons. not least of which is that incredibly spicy moment when the deputy attorney general tells jeff clark to please go back to his office and if there is an environmental spill, they'll call him. but he doesn't have any role at all in whether or not the election was fraudulent and no role at all in running the department of justice. however, the fake electors, i could see a world in which they could make a legal argument, maybe very dubious, maybe very questionable, but some electors believe they were told they have a specific role and they were tricked, again we've heard from from a few electors. i'm not asserting that everyone

feels this way, but we've heard that they feel they were doing what they were supposed to do and they were tricked into believing that they were offering the opportunity should the election ultimately be thrown into question. that they were preserving an option for another submission. if they were, and if they could prove they were tricked, then they were acting essentially in a quasi governmental role. i don't know that it qualifies for removing them to federal court. actually, ali -- >> go ahead. >> i was going to say, i'm really -- i love geeking out with glenn. and i would love it if you would show that line one more time. because when i read it, it sounded as if the judge was saying if all of the acts are under -- >> let's read it again and put up the element number one. judge order asking the parties to weigh in on the issue. quote, would a finding that at least one but not all of the

overt acts charged occurred under the color of meadow's office but sufficient for a federal removal of a criminal prosecution? so it is at least one but not all. which is again, when i first saw this, i was -- i don't know these things. i'm not a lawyer. so i didn't know what that really meant. >> yeah. >> but that is the judge asking anybody in the room got an answer to that? >> yeah. and it is also to be fair, it is also the judge asking fani willis, you didn't get to give your point of view on this, your legal argument on this score. and i want to hear it. >> it is a lot of development that i did not expect to be chatting with you guys about. but i'm deeply appreciative for your remarkable reporting. i guess the question remains that if i do for halloween go out as a fake elector, what

would that look like. thanks to all three of you. when we come back, why jack smith is turning up the questioning on the drinking habits of donald trump's lawyer, rudy giuliani. new reporting on how jack smith's election probe is widening. plus election deniers took a hostage. and the results have been abysmal. we'll look at trump transformation and why their still willing to go down in flames. later in the show, five members of the proud boys in court today ahead of the sentencing, hearing firsthand from victims about their actions on january 6. we'll dive into that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. don't go anywhere. why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved

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long time viewers of this program know that nicolle likes to remind us from time to time that we only know a small portion of what the special counsel jack smith has up his proverbial sleeve in terms of evidence or in terms of the legal threads he might be pulling on. and today we got a reminder of that fact. thanks to some provocative new reporting from "rolling stone magazine." the headline alone is eye popping. jesus christ smith grilled witnesses about rudy giuliani's drinking. now in the face of it, that might sound like below the belt but this is about a series legal thread that jack smith and his team are pulling on. rog stone reports that they are interesting in rudy giuliani's drinking on and after election day. investigating whether donald trump was knowingly relying on

an even re ated attorney. smith's team of federal investigators have asked questions about how seemingly intoxicated giuliani was during the weeks he was giving trump advice on how to cling to power. according to a source, one witness's attorney and a third person familiar with the matter, the spaesh counsel's team had asked witnesses if trump had ever gossiped with them about his drinking habits and if it impacted his decision-making and judgment and whether the then president was warned including after election night, 2020, about giuliani's allegedly excessive drink, they've also asked if trump was told that the former new york mayor was giving him post election advice, post election legal and strategic advice while inebriated. the special council has probed

how drink witnesses and others believed giuliani to be during specific and consequential moments of the tumultuous trump-biden presidential transition. now if you're asking why jack smith and his team are so interested in rudy alleged abuse of alcohol, rolling stone reports that federal prosecutors often aren't interesting in investigating mere alcohol consumption but according to lawyers in the room with special counsel investigators smith and his team are interesting because it could help demonstrate that trump was implementing the counsel of somebody he knew to be under the influence and if that were the case it could add to argument that trump behaved with willful recklessness in his attempted to nullify the 2020 election by relying havily on a lawyer that was inebriated. they have not verified the

story, but if it bears out this new clue is especially explosive given that trump and his cast of lawyers have made no seek of the fact that the disgraced twice impeached four times indicts ex-president plans to cite a advice of counsel. but if that lawyer is in even re ated and you know it, does the defense hold up. is it the kryptonite that jack smith needs to poke a hole in trump's would-be defense. we have reached out to mr. giuliani for comment. his believe adviser told us on his behalf, quote, one should always question a story that is completely reliant on anonymous soorss. this false narrative by nameless sources has been contradicted by on the record witnesses, end quote. that is from ted good mab who is

a political adviser to rudy giuliani. joining us now is opsing and glenn kirshner is back with us as well. thank you for your reporting on this. look, this is touchy. this is dicey stuff. there are two questions here. there is a question about rudy giuliani and his drinking. but more importantly for the nation, there is the question about rudy giuliani and his drinking, whether that was a known fact by the people involved if the effort to overturn the election and whether anybody relied on rudy giuliani if, in fact, he were drunk. >> and yes, and that is why the special counsel's investigators have been asking multiple key witnesses questions about, as you read at the top of the segment, how much trump knew or did not know about rudy giuliani's drinking habits. if the then leader of the free world donald trump thought that this was an issue, that in this or other instances couldn't

perhaps negatively impact his decision-making, and if whether or not he knew based on conversations with other advisors and aides that giuliani wassin even re ated, during the sprawling coup attempt. the reason this is relevant to someone like jack smith is not merely out of gossip, or trying to paint giuliani in one way or another, it is because if donald trump did know these things and instead leaned heavily on a man who he knew that these issues applied to, a opposed to other people like that who were telling him over and over again, you should not do things like for instance, falsely declare victory on election night 2020. it would help to go to show if you were going to make these arguments in a court law or during a trial, that trump was intentionally and willfully running with thins that he knew were false or perhaps given to

him by someone who may or may not have been in his right mind. another example, which jack smith previewed in his january 6 indictment of trump, that points to this pattern, is that they layout that trump, according to multiple witnesses have privately called sidney powell's election fraud conspiracy theories, quote -- so this is another brick if the road that jack smith appears to be building toward trying to prove in a court of law that trump was not just leaning on quote/unquote advice of counsel, he was engineering a reality that he perhaps knew was fictitious and wanted to will into existence because he waned to cling to power. >> glenn, i want to play for you something, because it is not the first time this has come up about rudy giuliani and his drinking. it may be the first time it has -- it is important to a lot of americans. i want to play for you some testimony before the january 6 select committee and i'm going to ask the viewers to listen to

the answers that are given here. >> a few of us, myself, jason miller, justin clark and mark meadows gathered in a room off -- to listen to whatever rudy presumably wanted to say to the president. >> was there anyone in that conversation who in your observation had too much to drink? >> um, rudy giuliani. >> tell me more about that. what was your observation about his potential intoxication about that discussion about what the president should say when he is dressed the nation on election night? >> i think the mayor was definitely intoxicated but i do not know that his level of intoxication when he spoke with the president for example.

>> so, glenn, i mean, this is just all new territory for me, right. i've never had this discussion about whether an adviser to the president may or may not have been intoxicated. but talk to me about how this is important to anybody's case. jack smith's case, fani willis's case, rudy giuliani is a named co-defendant in georgia, not in the january 6 case for the moment. tell me more about what you think about this and the thread that jack smith is pulling on. >> yeah, i think it is relevant evidence. it is not just salacious. it is not just the setup a punchline about rudy giuliani. but first of all, intoxication is a subject of keen interest in most criminal investigations. for example, if you have a defendant who is intoxicated at the time he committed a crime, it might negate his specific intent and it might take a case of a salt with intent to kill down to a case of simple assault because he was too drunk to form

the intent to kill. witnesses, we're exploring whether a witness is in tox cated under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time they make certain observations. could they accurately recall what they claim they saw. with respect to this. this is sort of a variation on that. is the president taking the advice or ultimately trying to use the advice as cover to do something that the president wanted to do, that was wrong, that was nefarious, that was maybe criminal. is he taking the advice from somebody who everyone in the room knows is drunk. if you're taking advice from a thoughtful, sober, learned counsel, that, you know, might give you some protection on the advice of counsel front. but if you're taking advice from, you know, from the town drunk sitting in the public square yelling at the clouds, you're not going to have much of an advice of counsel defense. these are relevant issues. these are not salacious issues

and i think more fundamentally, on the advice of counsel defense, i also think it is really hard for donald trump to pursue that when his counsel are his co-defendants in the january 6 trial, they're his unindicted co-defendants and there is no advice of co-defendant offense. so that also complicated the advice of counsel defense that donald trump might other weiss have. >> thanks for your reporting. glenn, thank you for your great analysis. when we come back, what happens to one state's political party when it is overcome by right-wing election deniers. we'll talk with one reporter who went to figure out that out in the state of michigan. e of mich.

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for democrats. no republican has won a election there since mr. trump won state in 2016. gop officials in the state are growing can concerned they do not have a top tier candidate to run for open senate seat, end quote. joining our conversation, the author, "new york times" nick coursen. i'm sorry, nick and charlie sykes. nick, michigan is both conary in the coal mine and ground zero for this particular battle that we've seen play out in arizona and in pennsylvania, and in georgia to some degree. but in michigan, it has been a complete wipeout. the pro-trump election denying crowd runs the whole scene. >> yeah, i think when you look at state parties across the country, they have been overrun since the 2020 election with some right wing activists.

but nowhere has it been more acute in michigan where they've kind of clung to this idea of election denialism so much so to their detriment. if there was mixed results in the 2022 midterms kind of across the country, say florida was possibly the red wave in 2022, michigan was the blue wave. this is a legitimate swing state where democrats took control of every statewide election, and they won back both chambers of the state legislature in a way they haven't had for over two decades. in the wake of that, the state party did an autopsy and they found themselves constantly caught between the pro-trump and the anti-trump forces and in that autopsy they found that trump proved a challenge on the general election ballot and by that they meant the election denial aspect that he kept pushing around the 2022 midterms. nothing changed in the state party. they went further. they elected as their chair, christina caramel, who is the candidate for secretary of state

who was one of more prominent doubters about the 2020 election in the entire country. and since then, board donors have left the party. prominent republican donors are funneling money to the state house caucus avoiding state party entirely. that is left the tate party basically broke. they have less than $150,000 in the bank. they have had a p.o. box as a headquarters and now they're in a suite in downtown lansing and you see them hold on despite continually losing money and influence and risking their effectiveness coming up in a key presidential year. >> charlie, let's talk about this. because when i was traveling there you all of the states, in arizona i saw a robust resistance from republicans and conservatives who actually ended up backing some of the democratic state candidates, and now the man who is the secretary of state and the governor

because they didn't want this. they feel, arizona feel like it has a rip republican conservative history and it doesn't need this b.s. in pennsylvania, we've seen challenges where republicans backed josh shapiro for the governorship. in georgia, we're seeing a republican party taken over by the deniers but a governor who is not part of that. and is fighting against it. michigan is absolute at this point. but it doesn't win for them. the point is they have alienated republicans in those states. >> no, in michigan and it is the most dramatic example of this. but similar things are happening around the country, where you are have the crazification and they talk about the transformation of what has happened to traditionally normal political units, including here in wisconsin. you're seeing it in arizona and in colorado. and this is -- i think, perhaps

a under-appreciated aspect of what is going on that many of these key swing states, the party has been absolutely gutted and many of the normal republicans, including people who had been mainstay of the party are being driven up or exiling themselves or voluntari exiling themselves because who wants to be in the room with the crazies. going forward, this is a real challenge. it's hard to imagine how republicans win without places like arizona, michigan, pennsylvania, and wisconsin. and yet in each one of these states, you are seeing the increased radicalization of the party, despite the overwhelming evidence that this is not the ticket to win back these states or the voters who have left. >> and in fact, the thing, nick, in places like michigan or arizona or pennsylvania or georgia, they've got a long history of republicans who do well statewide, who do well on

the national level as a result of that. these are places that were fairly normal by republican standards, which have now swung to this thing. this is really a republican problem to solve in places like michigan. no one else is going to solve this for them. >> no. and you're exactly right. the michigan republican party has a long history of influence that's from gerald ford. it's george romney. ronna mcdaniel was actually the chairwoman of the michigan republican party up until 2017 when she became the chair of the rnc. betsy devos, the former education secretary is one of the most powerful political power brokers in the state and also in the country. her network extends well beyond the state lines of measure. so this was a state party that had vast national both import and influence. and when you look at these prominent republicans in the state right now, they're almost content to let it die on the vine so they can build it back up from the ashes.

almost every prominent republican doan they're i spoke to for this article, which was over about eight, they all said the party is dead, or some kind of version of that. and that they weren't willing to give it money until it changed, and they would be focusing on things they can win, like individual congressional races and taking back at least one chamber of the state legislatures. so the leaders, the former leaders of the michigan republican party used to have such influence are really going take a step back and let this fight play out. and it might be a cycle or two before we see any kind of resolution here. at least at the state party level. >> and charlie, i guess people watch our air and they see guys like you, and we must cherry pick our conservatives as to those who will stand out and say this. but actually, on this front, you can walk into any of these state, michigan, arizona, pennsylvania, georgia, and many others, and you will find mainstream conservatives who have never voted democratic in their life who think of

theirselves as republicans and conservatives, and who are really, really bothered by this. in these states bothered by the last election, people like liz cheney were going out there you have to vote so you can fix yourselves as republicans. to nick's point, where does the fix come from? how does it happen when places like the michigan republican party actually elect an election denier who didn't do well in the last election, who lost to their state chairmanship? >> well, that's a great question. nobody has an answer to it. nobody has found an answer to it, because you have both a leadership problem and a followership problem, right? with the republican party, it may start with donald trump at the top, but you're also seeing this grassroots transformation. and so, you know, nick ran through a list of the heavyweights in michigan. and if the betsy devoses of the world can't fix it, it's hard to imagine who will. and i think they simply have to wait until the crazy burns

itself out and the fever breaks. >> guys, thanks very much. nick, great reporting on that. nick, come back in the next hour and i will definitely get it right. >> in corosiniti and charlie sykes. charlie and i have been talking for a few years, so i got sykes down pat. we'll be right back.

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we arrived at the mall and observed a large contingent of proud boys marching towards the capitol. we filmed them, and almost immediately i was separated from my colleagues. i documented the crowd, turned from protesters to rioters to insurrectionists. i was surprised at the size of the group, the anger and the profanity.

>> hi, again, everyone. it is 5:00 in new york. i'm ali velshi in for nicolle wallace. they played a very consequential role in the capitol riot. members of the right ring militia group the proud boys. from the work of the committee, they swung into action following trump's "will be wild" tweet. they stormed and broke into the capitol on january 6th and eventually were convicted of seditious conspiracy earlier this year. this week marks the sentencing hearings for the five members charged. prosecutors are seeking 33 years in prison for enrique tarrio, the former national leader of the group, as well as joe biggs, a proud boy event organizer from florida. prosecutors want 30 years in prison for zachary rell, former president of the group's philadelphia chapter, and 27 years for ethan nordian. all four were convicted of sedition. in the case of dominic who was

the first individual who got into the capitol after smashing a window was ultimately not charged with seditious conspiracy, prosecutors are seeking 20 years. as you hear the very long sentences, keep in mind stewart rhodes, the head of the oath keepers, he is currently serving the longest january 6th sentence to date, 18 years. today at a joint hearing for all five men before their final sentencing hearings later this week, we heard victim impact statements from current and former members of the u.s. capitol police who fought reuters on the 6th. officer shea cooney said, quote, i never thought i would be fighting my own fellow citizens. they wanted any way possible get inside the building, end quote. former capitol police officer mark o'dea wrote that january 6th was a plan and organized attempt to overthrow our constitutional process by individuals who were determined that their opinion of the few were superior to our constitution, and decided to use violence and terror to impose their will, end quote. as we await the sentencing for

the proud boys members convicted of a very serious and rarely proven charge, we look back at the prosecutors' sentencing memo which reads in part, quote, the justice system's response to january 6th will impact whether january 6th becomes an outlier or a watershed moment. it is critical that this court impose significant sentences of incarceration on all the defendants in this case to convey to those who would mobilize such political violence in the future that their actions will have consequences, end quote. and that is where we start this hour with nbc news justice reporter ryan reilly outside the d.c. courthouse where the sentencing hearing took place. plus, former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi frank figliuzzi, and errin haines, editor at large of the 19th. welcome to all of you. thank you for being with us. errin haines, let me start with you, because we are finally, after seeing lots of people arrested and tried, we're finally seeing the head honchos

behind this thing indicted at a federal level and in georgia. but there is this middle space. there are these proud boys and these oath keepers who were not casual observers. they were not chumps who happened to fall into it. they also weren't the brains of the operation. but they were violent, and they had extremist tendencies and goals, and we're on the precipice of seeing some more of them punished in a way that a lot of americans have been waiting for. >> you're absolutely right, ali. they were there. they were actors. we saw it with our own eyes unfold on the screens. some people were even living through it, some of our colleagues, members of congress, et cetera. and so, yes, you know, i think you're exactly right. will these sentences be hefty enough to be a deterrent for these would-be future insurrectionists? because what we know is the political climate in the wake of the 2020 election still exists.

it is still being stoked by former president trump who continues to claim that the election was rigged and stolen. so you do still have remnants of these groups who, you know, could be also paying attention to what the consequences of these convictions are. the message, i think that prosecutors are wanting to send is heroes do not typically get convicted of crimes in our country, particularly sedition. and so with the department of justice kind of hoping these sentences send a message about these consequences threatening democracy and certainly a federal sentence that would send these convicted insurrectionists into old age would be such a message. >> right, where do we stand come wearing this to the ohs keepers, comparing this to stewart rhodes, for instance, who is also no chump. this guy is a yale educated lawyer and knew exactly what he was up to. what's the similarities or differences in these proud boys, the anticipated sentencing of them versus the oath keepers and

stewart rhodes? >> sure. different judges say you can't make the perfect comparison. but in the case of stewart rhodes, i remember prosecutors going for 25 years in that case, and he ultimately got 18. so shaving seven years off of what prosecutors had requested in that case. and this case, obviously it's 33 years. so eight more years than what was sought. i think in terms of their actual conduct, what is interesting is enrique tarrio was not physically on the grounds of the capitol on january 6th. he was actually at a baltimore hotel when most of this unfolded. but the proud boys were more involved than a lot of the really violent actions on january 6th. and chiefly geographically, at least, they were on the west side of the capitol while the oath keepers were more on the east side of the capitol. the oath keepers just weren't as involved in some of these one-on-one battles with police. and, you know, the proud boys really were at that initial breach from the peace monument, actually just over here to my left not too far away, just few hundred feet over here is where

a lot of this kicked off during that initial brief. and joseph briggs was on the bullhorn at that moment. he is the other individual who prosecutors would like to see in prison for 33 years and will be sentenced on thursday. and just before that breach, someone came up and whispered in his ear, and he spoke with them very briefly. and it was sort of off past them. and all these individuals were part of this. if other departments were a part of this. those pezzola was not in communication. and that's why you see the differentiation between the four ultimately convicted of seditious conspiracy, and pezzola, who is in some of the most famous footage from january 6th using the shield to break out the window. but what the jury concluded is he was not as involved in the planning as some of the core individuals were who were ultimately convicted of seditious conspiracy. obviously 30-year sentences are no joke. and when you're talking about federal time, that's realtime. this isn't state time where you can sort of get off with good time served.

you're ultimately going to end up serving at least 85% of that time. so if you have a sentence of 30 years, that's a really long time that you're going to be spending in federal prison, you know. when you look at in comparison the stewart rhodes case, he is in there for a hefty period of time, 18 years, he is going to be in there for several presidential cycles to come. >> frank, let's talk what what errin was talking about. some of it is punishment. the fbi understands that domestic violent extremism, talking about seditious conspiracy, something relatively specific, the overturning of the 2020 election. but the domestic violent extremism is the scourge of our time. it is the threat to more lives in america than most other things are right now. do these sentences put a dent in the effort to fight that? most of my viewers can draw a link between these guys on the

grounds of the capitol and some of the shootings that we see in this country, the hate motivated shootings. there is a permission structure developed for these people to behave a certain way. does this help? >> so what seems apparent to most of us who study this issue is over a thousand arrests coming out of january 6th have absolutely had a deterrent effect on people showing up at rallies, inciting violence, wanting to fight some more. in fact, you can see extremists in their chat rooms and private places online saying i don't want to get arrested. so lots of talk and banter, but they know they're facing arrests. so the significance of this coming up this week, this potential sentencing of proud boys leadership, we've seen the rank and file boots on the ground get slammed. but now we're going to see along with oath keepers leadership potentially the longest sentence coming out of january 6th, which would be potentially for enrique tarrio. so yes, i do believe it will

have a clear message being sent. don't forget the interview that donald trump did i think with savannah guthrie where she asked him to kind of call out the proud boys and denounce what they're about. and of course he refused. and rather he said i'll tell them to stand back and stand by. and enrique tarrio has said that membership requests went up after that, and that they were empowered and inspired even more by trump because of that. also, you might recall "the new york times" several months ago did a great video pinning together all of the camera coverage of january 6th. and you can see both the oath keepers and the proud boys leveraging the crowd as kind of a wedge to drive to breach the capitol. it was deliberate. it was strategic. and that's why these guys should face very, very long sentences. >> errin, one of the reasons i love reading the 19th is because

you were able to put the threads together of these types of stories. we just saw this shooting in jacksonville, you know, a couple days ago. fed by a hate manifesto in a country where we're not necessarily going in the right direction in terms of understanding each other better. but this thing about white supremacist extremist groups with guns using extrajudicial things to get their way is an existential problem for a lot of americans. and i'm not exaggerating when i say that. there are three people dead in jacksonville because somebody didn't like black people. >> yes. and, you know, if we know history, and this is why it's important the know history, ali, this is part of the ugly or racist history of our country. we know that there is political backlash to political progress in america. and so when you have, you know,

really racial progress, progress along gender lines, you can have people who don't like that who want to respond with political violence that, you know, can be inspired by political figures. certainly stoked by political figures. and that is a very real reality that i think more americans need to understand is on a continual in terms of the history of our country. this has been something that had been cyclical and something that we maybe find ourselves in the cycle of right now. >> ryan, what role did any of that have to play in this? some of us who knew of the proud boys and oath keepers prior to the events of january 6th knew them to be extremist groups with extremist grews in a country where people claim to have militias, even though it's outlawed. you can't be a militia in america. you can have a gun club. does this play a role in the

determination of their sentencing, or is this specifically to do with the role that they played on january 6th? >> you know, it's a delicate line, a lot of these scenarios. they have a lot of these first amendment claims. the history of the group definitely play a big role in the trial overall because they went back and looked at these previous events that the proud boys were involved in. and obviously that video that was referenced earlier in terms of the stand back and stand by from president trump was evidence in this case that is sort of this remarkable moment where you had this footage of the president inspiring a group that is now charged with seditious conspiracy and has now been convicted of seditious conspiracy. it's definitely played a role in how this case sort of all rolled out. they look back at the previous conflicts. and the proud boys were involved in skirmishes here in d.c. before january 6th, both in nevada and december of 2020 in that period after the election loss. and i think, you know, in terms

of the extremism, one thing that often gets overlooked is how deeply imbedded racism is at the core of all of these issues. a lot of conspiracy theories about voting all have to do with cities where there is a significant black population. that's really the underlying part of all this. the racism is embedded into that to a lot of the conspiracies about voting fraud. you sort of heard the former president make reference to that in general and sort of a wink and a nudge, not even really coded so much to a lot of his population. we all sort of know who he is talking about when he was making these general references, or what he was referencing in general. >> how do you parse that, frank? there is sort of extremism in general, and then it can be violent in america. we've got a lot of people who are very attached to their guns. and they think that being a militia and doing those things is okay. it's not. it's not legal. you can't have a militia anymore. but how do you -- how does the fbi, for instance, parse the idea that much of this is

inextricably linked to racism not just here in america but around the world? >> you'll recall a couple of years back director christopher wray on the hill testifying that race-based, hate-based violence was the number one most fatal of the extremism that the fbi was seeing in their investigations. look, this is the challenge of getting out in front of domestic terrorism, which is the preservation of civil liberties, free speech, freedom of assembly association, and getting out in front of a crime before it happens. and it is an ongoing challenge. we still don't have a domestic terrorism law that gives all the tools necessary for law enforcement to do what they have already done successfully on the international terrorism site. so it's about really trying to get in there with enough sources that you're allowed to build. and there is handcuffs put on law enforcement with regard to

domestic matters. you almost have to wait for the violence to be articulated, for the violence to happen or come very close in the planning stages to be executed, and that is the challenge. i'll contrast that with canada, by the way, that has designated the proud boys canada as a terrorist entity. they are permitted lawfully to designate them as a domestic terrorist group. we don't do it. we don't even have a loss against domestic terrorist. >> and chris wray has expressed frustration that congress, the subject of this attack, would not take action on this. thanks to all three of you. don't go anywhere. we're coming rite back to you. when we return, we'll have much more. we're going the dig deeper into how as the prosecutions against donald trump ramp up, house republicans are going after prosecutors. plus, state lawmakers in tennessee have yet again punished a member of the tennessee 3. we'll show you what happened when state representative justin jones was silenced by the gop during a debate about gun safety. just in the past few minutes, we learned more about

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donald trump's allies in congress will stop at nothing to protect him, which is why we're seeing the likes of congressman jim jordan and matt gaetz go after the prosecutors in trump's multiple indictments. their latest plan of attack, using the upcoming government funding deadline at the end of next month as leverage. but as nbc news reports, even if the government shuts down, it's not going to stop the prosecutions.

quote, trump's indictments in new york and georgia would not be affected, while his federal indictments for allegedly mishandling classified documents and for his role in the january 6th insurrection are traditional matters that have been exempted from shutdowns in the past. the justice department said in a 2021 memo that in a shutdown, quote, criminal litigation will continue without interruption as an activity essential to the safety of human life and the protection of property, end quote. we're back with ryan reilly, frank figliuzzi and errin haines. let me start with you. this has been a theme of congress, this weapons inspection of government, right? jim jordan started a subcommittee, and it's called the subcommittee on the weapons inspection of government. it sounds like a fantastic idea. if i'm from outside, i would think what a great idea. you a congressional committee to make sure you don't have the weapons inspection of government. what a rube i was, because that's not what jim jordan's committee is doing. they are in fact of the manifestation of the weapons inspection of government. >> it sounds good until you

realize what it is, right? the new strategy is the old strategy, exactly as you laid out. and republicans in congress to attempt to slow down the process, to defend the former president from the halls of congress and to continue to try to show how he is a victim something being unlawfully accused when time after time, that strategy continues to not work. now it's a spector that a government shutdown is going to halt these cases. nope. the money is already in the budget. you've got this house investigation that is supposed to derail georgia district attorney, fulton county district attorney fani willis. that train has already left the station. and delaying this process is not going to keep trump's day or days rather in court from coming. >> frank, let's talk about this. there was a point where there was a church committee. that was the whole idea, right? there was actually the weapons inspection of government in the agency that you worked with for

a long time. and the church committee was an esteemed august committee that was charged with finding out why it happened, how it happened, rooting it out and insuring the government does serve all people. at some point, this strategy is going to backfire on the jim jordans and matt gaetz because they're going force people to take votes on things that americans are not going to be supportive of. >> i think that's where this is headed. i actually hope this is where that is headed. the church committee regularly sent out rules, guidelines that i operated under for 25 years in the fbi. and yeah, they got it right for the most part, because there were abuses. but now we're seeing abuses in terms of weaponizing the powers of congress. we've heard calls to defund the fbi, the department of justice. now essentially they want to hold hostage the budget of the united states government, essentially defund the budget because they think, or at least

their theatrically going to perform like if we do this, we can somehow pull the plug on jack smith or fani willis or alvin bragg in manhattan. it can't happen. but it is perform tif, and it is playing to not only trump, but at least the core base of trump. what continues to amaze me from a security perspective is the degree to which national security is being held hostage. the degree to which one party is willing to sacrifice our nation's security. we have senator tommy tuberville holding hostage the military and the senior leadership of the service and branches because he is not getting what he wants. and now we're hearing this, which is, yeah, you know what? we may just not pass a budget. we don't like what some of these agencies are doing. that's where we are. that's how significant it is. and it is an existential threat to national security. >> ryan, what's interesting is you covered all of these trials of the people who have actually been charged with what happened on january 6th. and judge tanya chutkan, who has

preside other many of them has articulated the frustration that some of the people who are tried for saying hey, the head honchos have not faced any charges yet. and yet you're sending me to jail. does this -- how does this work in court? because you've got these people in congress who are still carrying on about illegitimate prosecutions and witch hunts. and yet the wheels of justice are going on. people who were involved in january 6th are getting tried and charged and convicted. >> yeah, and it's interesting. you can tell who people are willing to jump up for. you don't see a bunch of members of congress necessarily coming to the defense of the proud boys because they don't want to be associated generally with that entire scenario. but just even today there was a defendant. actually a defendant who has been held for 2 1/2 years now, more than, that finally going to trial. the reason he was held is he didn't respect the court. he kept blowing off the court. he tried to interfere with his probation officer, all sorts of

allegations. it's not as though the underlying crime would have necessitated you would have been held. because he kept having these interaction was the court and trying to interfere with that process, he has been held in jail. he actually got done with closing arguments today. and he is an individual who still believes the election was stolen. there are a lot of people still in that camp. what is interesting, when you get to the sentencing point, that's when you often see a little bit of a differentiation between people who continue to believe that the election was stolen, and between people who have sort of given that up. you can sort of -- it's a tough thing to admit that you basically threw a bunch of your life away because you believed some of these lies about the election. you have seen some of these defendants who have done that. but a lot of people can't bring themselves to accept that because i think it would break them in a lot of ways. i think there has to be a larger purpose to what they did and they didn't just get tricked by nonsense on the internet and there was actually a purpose to what they were doing hee. it's interesting to see how that ultimately breaks. in this case in particular, this is someone who basically admitted to all the elements of

the crime. so it's not as though you're ultimately -- there is much mystery in terms of what we could see as a jury verdict. we checked off all the boxes and decided to represent himself in court. we'll see how much time in addition he is going to serve because he has already served so much time in jail already up to this point. >> ryan, we're so grateful you are covering these things for us. we appreciate it. thanks to all three of you, ryan reilly, frank figliuzzi and errin haines. stick with me, errin, because i want to continue the conversation with you. clamping down on a democratic state lawmaker that they expelled earlier their year. this times justin jones was silenced by the gop. we're going have this story after a very short break. stay with us. to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months.

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our democratic process was united. we walked it, because that's a charade, a sham happening in there. and the people are united, challenging aught thortarianism. the people in the galleys were taken out. all that is a facade of democracy and the legislative process. >> democratic member of the tennessee house of representatives justin jones yesterday slamming republicans for voting to prohibit him from speaking and debating on bills for the remainder of the day. the move came a week into a special section that the republican governor bill lee called in reaction to a deadly shooting at an elementary school in nashville in march. republican house speaker cameron sexton accused jones of straying off topic when jones criticized legislation that would allow

more law enforcement officers in schools and instead proposed more funding for mental health professionals. now, as you know, this is not the first time that tennessee republicans moved to punish representative jones. back in april, they voted to expel him, along with democratic representative justin jay pearson for calling for gun reform on the floor right after a shooting. now just this afternoon, the house republicans adjourned the special session, ending their journey to pass any gun legislation laws at all, things that are highly supported by the population in tennessee. joining our conversation, the distinguished university professor of african american and diaspora studies at vanderbilt university in nashville and author of "entertaining race: performing blackness in america." welcome to you professor dyson. and errin haines is back with us. thank you for staying, errin. professor, i'm fascinated. i've always said i made it somehow into my 50s without ever knowing much about the tennessee

legislature, and i know a lot about it now. i'm sort of fascinated at the creativity they employed. they are not going to let justin jones and justin pearson and people like that disrupt the way they want to do business. >> yeah, well, that's emblematic of what the republicans have done en masse. it's estimatematic. let's silence the black voice. let's marginal the black body. let's sentence the black voice to a term of time-out. and so this attempt to manipulate and somehow obfuscate what's going on there is par for the course. you are absolutely right. they are not going to let anything hinder their procedural addiction. you got to do it this way. these are the laws. these are the rules. these are the conventions by which we operator. there are no bills being legislated. and the republican governor who

finally, you know, get off the snide so to speak and tried to get to the point of having some common sense gun legislation has been frustrated as well. these republicans are a sight to behold for sure. >> and errin, the professor making the point they know they can't expel these guys again. they got expel and put back in by their municipalities really fast. it's this idea that you're out of line. you're out of order. you're doing something. you're talking about things that are offensive topic. they can't even smell the way that looks, the way that looks to the rest of us. y'all are telling these two black guys that they're out of order for talking about guns and safety and things like that. you're just sort of deciding what order looks like. >> yeah, i mean, look, ali, tennessee is still tennessee in a lot of ways. you mentioned being familiar with the history, you know, certainly as a newsroom name for the 19th amendment, tennessee

factors pretty prominently into that, being the 36th state to ratify the 19th amendment. but not over the objections of folks who did not want black people, specifically black women getting their access to the franchise in 19 -- in the early 20th century. so you have justin pearson continuing to call for gun reform five months after this nashville shooting. justin jones trying to do the same. they were ejected, you know, get elected, returned to that state house, and yet aturn to apparently business as usual. i wonder what happened to the decorum that that the house speaker was so prioritizing? because once again you see with cameras rolling in the state house this altercation between representative pearson and the house speaker. and to professor dyson's point, it seems like not much actual governing happened this week. so taxpayers and voters,

including those who were reinstated, representatives pearson and jones to go and down their jobs at that state house are probably wondering, it certainly didn't look like they got their money's worth. this week the public was kept out of the special session. law enforcement was largely let in. this is really not what we should expect from democracy to look like in 2023. >> professor, this is an interesting point. part of the reason that the municipalities that justin pearson and justin jones were able to reinstate them because we have an understanding in democracy that people have a right to be represented. if you sort of have their seats empty, putting the race question, acai, the overwhelming number of tennesseeans and americans understand we have a gun problem in this country. they don't want to give up their guns, but they do understand whether it's red flag laws or better background checks or safer storage, there is a real discussion to be had that the legislators of tennessee, the

super majority legislators of tennessee, many of whom run opposed in their elections are simply not willing to have. they're out of touch in fact with some of their own constituents. >> absolutely right. and who they are in touch with more broadly are constituencies dictated to by the nra or the refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of a point. remember the historic action and process of these legislators has been black for we ain't going to get down with it. and it's not quite that simple here because the black legislators, however, were standing instead and support of white americans whose children had died standing in proxy for those voices that were murdered that day. and even when these black legislators stood up for these white kids, they still weren't getting down with them. they're not going to acknowledge

the legitimacy of what they're saying. you can separate it from race to be certain. when you add race on to it, it becomes even more exacerbated. but the point is that these republicans are refusing to have any sense of conversation about the possibility that the second amendment is not the second commandment, and god didn't say thou shalt have an ak-47. >> you know, errin, as much as i was saying, the go of you are such experts at this, and you understand the south and you understand tennessee. i didn't really know much about the tennessee legislature. i also didn't know justin jones and justin pearson, and people like them across the country who got shot into prominence because of what happened. one actually looks, all right, i vote for somebody who is ready to get out of their jobs. it's a civil rights kind of thing, right? these guys are ready to get thrown out of their legislatures. they're ready to braechl decorum in the defense of lies.

as the professor says, not just black lives, white lives, right? kids who get shot at school. kids dying of gun violence is the greatest scourge. it kills more kids than anything else kills kids. there is something about these movements that has caused us to look at a generation of young leaders in a way that is very impressive. >> ali, representative jones, representative pearson, i'm sure these people would probably be fine if nobody knew their name, if it meant that they were getting gun reform legislation passed in the tennessee legislature. these were not people who were raising their voices because they wanted the spotlight. it was because they wanted action in the wake of this tragic shooting in nashville. it was because they were in solidarity with the many, many people, the diverse crowds that flooded the tennessee capitol, calling for change, wanting their representatives to do

something, to take some action around this issue. there are people coming together in these collisions of concern about the issue of gun violence across the country. and there are other representative joneses and representatives pearsons that are trying to raise not because they want to be recognized for fame or celebrity, but because they really are trying to get action on this. and as a result, are being thrust into kind of our national consciousness in a way they certainly didn't expect and that we wouldn't otherwise know them. >> but we might all be better as a relative humidity of learning about them and their efforts. thanks to both you have. it's a pleasure to have you both on. michael eric dyson and errin haines. shifting gears to that dangerous hurricane bearing down on florida. we have new information from the national hurricane center on hurricane idalia. and we're going have that for you after a very short break.

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very few people can survive being in the path of major storm surge, and this storm will be deadly if we don't get out of harm's way and take it seriously. >> that was a fema administrator deanne criswell warning floridians of hurricane idalia who is upgraded to a category 2 tomorrow. that happened in the past hour. idalia is barreling toward florida's west coast. the state is requesting a major disaster declaration from the federal government. we expect the storm to become a category 3 hurricane by the time

it makes landfall tomorrow morning with winds of 125 miles per hour. currently nearly two dozen counties in florida are under evacuation orders. all flights from tampa international airport have been canceled. 600 of florida search and rescue personnel stand at the ready. and we've got trucks headed to that part of the country to help out when power goes out. joining us now is nbc meteorologist bill karins. bill, this thing is a serious storm. >> it's as powerful as any we've had recently. this may not be category 5 like we had with mike oral we were close to at landfall last year. but this easily could be a category 4 landfall 12 to 13 hours from now. the difference with this storm and a lot of the other ones is this one is not making landfall into a big huge metropolitan area like ian or even like mexico beach like we had there in the panhandle. there is heading up into the big bend area of florida. this is swamp area, wildlife recreation area. there is not a lot of cities and not a lot of towns. we're talking about some areas

it's scary for you, perry, cedar key, about 700 people call that home. and that's out in the water. so those are the areas and the towns if we hear about devastating problems, that would be the most likely spots. it's the hurricane center. this is where the current location. notice, it's almost due if you head from the center of the storm to fort myers. out in the gulf, it's almost due west. in about two to three hours, the storm is going to be as close to tampa as it's ever going to get. do not expect the winds to be a big huge issue in the tampa area. it's too far away. isolated power outages at worst. the storm surge is the only issue up and down the areas from tampa southwards. north of, that we could get some problems. so the forecast does take the center kind of through perry. we don't focus on the red line when it's far away. when we get under 12, 13 hours away, we need to know where the cry is going to go to let those people know. if i lived in perry and my family was there, i'd be getting out before it get taos rough. it will be equal to probably a

tornado. that's what it's going to look like if you go through the eye. that's what's heading up towards this area after landfall. tallahassee is getting closer and closer to the center line. we're watching you. right now it's a very close call how much tree damage you're going to have. beautiful city. tons of trees all over the area. the tallahassee national weather service is telling people you could be weeks without power. if that storm gets close enough and all those trees go down, it's going to be a disaster to get the power back on. and then through the carolinas and georgia, we're going take the storm through wednesday evening. still concerned with high tides in savannah, charleston 8:30. thursday morning into early thursday afternoon. our computer models, the black line is the center forecast towards perry. notice the models are still in this big bend area. tallahassee, you're on the west side of it. cedar key on the right side. this hasn't changed much. that's where we're going see the worse storm surge. there is not a lot of population centers to see that which is

great. as far as the radar goes, we've had some bands going through. some pretty strong storms up here. severe thunderstorm warnings over all the way on the space coast. even by melbourne, it's a nasty storm. we could see isolated tornadoes late tonight and at landfall tomorrow morning. so that's another concern. but nothing compared to the storage surge. i mentioned that tampa, your water issue is the biggest problem. 4:40 tomorrow morning is when your high tide. that's probably when your strongest winds or towards your strongest wednesday winds. the highest winds towards the tampa area and up the coast will be from four a.m. to 8:00 or 9:00 a.m. when this thing makes landfall. it's the area in this pink here, that's where we could see the historic 10 to 15 feet. this is very shallow. our friends and our colleagues are all located there in crystal river that easily could see a nine-foot, to ten-foot storm surge. a lot of towns right in here that are going toe have serious water issues. not wind issues, water issues. because the winds are going to be 40, 60 miles per hour.

we can deal with gusts like that in florida. everything is sort of built for that. it's where you get the extreme winds once we get up there, say 100, 120, even areas in florida have issues. the carolinas could see gusts 40 to 60 the coastal areas. inland you're going to be just fine, south carolina, raleigh, . ral li, myrtle beach, not too bad. allie. you get the gist of this. wherever the eye makes landfall, going to look like a tornado went through. that storm surge is still going to be destruction and cause damage as far south as the tampa area. >> tampa bay may flood. it will unflood once the storm passes by. but you point out tallahassee. that wind issue, which may not be a big issue in other plaiss, in a place that has as many beautiful trees as tallahassee, brings down power lines and may be days or weeks before it's

restored. tallahassee not out of the woods. >> about 50,000 people still living in tallahassee. we know how hot it is. picture surviving no air-conditioning, rough. >> we're going to keep a close eye on this with you, thank you. quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. is our bus. we need to scale with customer demand... ...in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) with verizon business, we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) so our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) it's not just a network. it's enterprise intelligence. (vo) learn more. it's your vision, it's your verizon.

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district attorney fani willis' sprawling election interference case. today an attorney for trump lawyer sidney powell pleaded not guilty to each and every charge, end quote, in the indictment, including racketeering and conspiracy to commit election fraud. a second codefendant also pleaded not guilty today as well as a third defendant yesterday, rea smith who represented trump in the 2020 garj cases, pleading not guilty. all three defendants waived their formal arraignment, while the 16 others, including president donald trump are scheduled to be arraigned next week, september 6th. the we want to remind you you can read all four indictments against donald trump complete and unabridged in a handy book form. in it you'll be able to read all the charging document against trump and his codefendants, the trump indictments will be published on september 25th. i'm especially excited about it because i wrote the book's introduction and served at its

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thank you for spending this tuesday with us. nick colle back tomorrow. ie hope you'll join me tomorrow at 9:00 p.m. eastern. sitting in for alex wagner tonight. among our guests -- "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. ari, good evening to you my friend. >> good evening, we'll look for you tonight at 9:00 as well. thank you. appreciate it. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber.

we're tracking the push for streedy trials for donald trump and his codefendants. new today, trump's rico prosecutor in the atlanta case, d.a. willis formally moving to fast track all of the 19 defendants in that racketeering case. so after the judge scheduled october 23rd for this gentleman you see in his mug shot, former trump lawyer ken cheseboro, the new motion pushes to judge to go past other defendants. asking the court to set aside that lee way for other defendants saying those deadlines do not apply to other codefendants. now, if you want to translate that, it is legal speak for saying, if the d.a. wins this effort, the fast deadlines will apply to everyone. that prospect has trump's current lawyers concerned, which we know, because just yesterday they were in federal court with jack smith emphatically arguing that a fast trial would become an unfair show trial,