preparing and well organized and well trained state prepared, the government is doing their job, people have to be prepared. >> very good advice. from you, retired lieutenant general russell honoray, and that will do it for me. i'll see you right back here tomorrow. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. there are developments this afternoon across a number of those investigations into ex-president donald trump. we'll get to those in just a mit. but first we pick up live coverage of hurricane idalia. the strong efrt storm to make land fall on the big bend region of florida in generations. actually going back 127 years. right now it is a cat 1 hurricane. thankfully that is an improvement. when it first made landfall and it slammed head on into florida as a cat 3 with 125 mile-per-hour winds.

this is what that actually looks like or looked like in keaton beach, florida. and gabe showed us the aftermath there. >> some boats are being sent in to check for survivors. the water thankfully seems to be receding here after all of the storm surge. but i just wanted to show you the national guard here. with response to your question where we could see the wind, we saw a lot of tree damage. a lot of tree damage. downed power lines. you can kind of tell where the worst of it was. as it blows through. and in some places it looks like a tornado came through. it is remarkable when you see the intensity of this storm. the power of a hurricane as it comes on shore. >> that is our colleague gabe gutierrez. he spent his morning in perry, florida, about a half an hour north. where roaring winds blow over this gas station awning before knocking out a billboard right where gabe was doing some of his

reporting. a few minutes later, gusts nearly lifted him and his crew and their equipment including their camera right off the ground. watch that moment. >> the winds here, wind gusts -- i'm told are over 100 miles an hour. and we are really feeling the brunt of this storm. an unprecedented storm hitting the area. they have never seen a storm this powerful in terms of wind surge. >> again, idalia is now a cat 1 storm. but there is still a high degree of threat to human life lives ant property, having torn florida up on its way through georgia and the carolinas. including some highly populated areas there. one of the potential emergencies right now aside from the high winds, potential flash floods and devastating storm surges. high tide for many effected areas is in a matter of a few

hours, fueled by a wear blue supermoon. so as we brace for the next dangerous chapter, we understand two people have lost her lives in weather-related car crashes according to the florida highway patrol. but ron desantis said those are unconfirmed to be a direct result of the storm. tens of thousands are still without power while people farther north are being told to remain inside. president biden delivered remarks a little bit ago. here is what he had to say. >> i let each governor i spoke with know that if there is anything, anything that the states need right now, i'm ready to mobilize that support that they need. >> joining our coverage to talk us through all of this, our colleague nbc meteorologist angie lassman. i know these are the longest of days for people in the region. but runner-up is obviously you and your colleagues who keep us all informed. tell us what is happening this

hour and what you're watching for in the coming hours. >> yeah, nicolle. we've been covering this all morning long and we know that the worst is behind folks -- behind you for the folks in florida. but we're seeing damaging conditions in parts of georgia and the carolinas. we saw impressive rainfall amounts earlier in the afternoon hours. that is on going. and we also have a tornado watch in effect and some tornado warnings that were issued just a little while ago for downtown charleston. those have since expired but this is something that we warn about when we see systems moving on shore and moving through these areas with the circulation coming around it. and not impossible for us to see not unlikely for us to see some of the tornados. there is a tornado warned area to the west of somerville. so if yoo you are in that area, heads up. that is a spot that we could be looking at a brief tornado potentially weak or strong. we'll have to wait and see how that plays out. this is time to get to your safe space in that spot. we have a category 1 in idalia. winds hanging on to the status at 75 miles per hour but

continuing to chug along in this area with 20-mile-per-hour federal speed. it still has heavy rain mostly kind of confined to parts of georgia and stretching some of the outer bands toward the carolinas, charleston seeing some of those and hence the reason for the spiraling in for the spinoffs to happen for the tornados. we still have the potential for flooding. i mentioned we have heavy rain across parts georgia, and that is starting to taper off but we still have some flash flood warnings in effect and those are often -- the highest fatalities that we see come from water when we see these systems. it will be off shore tomorrow and take most of the rain through thursday. it will be moving out, but between now anden this, still have the potential for heavy rain and strong winds at least closer to the center, and the potential for storm surge, especially as we get closer to those high tide times. nicolle, you mentioned that we have that super blue moon and

that means that the high tides are higher than normal. king tides as we call it in parts of south. so we could see two to five feet of storm surge as the winds come in from on shore and the most important part is right around those high tide times. so savannah coming in at 7:37. charleston 8:24. we could be talking about a record high water level at least in the top ten for charleston over eight feet when it comes to that tide height. so that is something to watch into the evening hours. so of course the storm is weakening and people want to let their guard down but folks in the southeast have a long way to go with this through the rest of the evening hours. wee starting to see the calmer conditions settle in in florida and the water eventually receding but this time we still have elevated water levels or along the west coast with the high tide times happening around now. eventually as we get into the evening hours we'll see some improvement as well. but for the time being, still much to watch with this system. >> it is remarkable. and gabe's reporting illustrates

what you are talking about. these things that look like tornados much for people to be careful of. thank you so much for your reporting on this. we're going to stay on top of all and any breaking news related to hurricane idalia. but we're going to turn to the other big story we've been tracking here today. the increasingly perilous legal jeopardy facing the four timed indicted ex-president. of course we're talking about donald trump. as a reminder, it is only wednesday and already it has that kind of a week for him. on monday his hex chief of staff mark meadows testified for four hours in a sort of hail mary legal attempt to get his part of that sprawling racketeering case in fulton county, georgia, moved to federal court. the first trump associate to testify in open court about the actions the ex-president took after the 2020 election. as the washington post puts it, and he testified again, for four hours. on monday, judge tanya chutkan

rebuffed efforts to put off jack smith's federal election trial for the 2 1/2 years that trump had requested. that would have taken it to 2026. instead, judge chutkan set a march 4th trial day. for those keeping score at home, that is one day before super tuesday. it will be a busy spring. then came word that jack smith is zeroing in on rudy giuliani alleged inebriation during critical attempts to cling to power which could prove to be a blow to trump's claims that he was just following the advice of counsel. there is more on that. on tuesday, there was that power move by fulton county georgia fani willis asking to fast track all 19 defendants in the racketeering case. as we said, it is only website. there is a a lot. this is what have you have when you have a disgraced ex-president facing this many indictments in this many jurisdictions and this many

different styles as you will. let's consider the two election interference cases. as "new york times" reported, the two cases stemming from the efforts of the trump and his allies to over turn the results of the 2020 election rely on the same facts and witnesses that the approaches to the two prosecutors in charge of the investigation jack smith and fani willis could not be more different. mr. smj took over the two federal trump allegations in hopes of wrapping up legal proceedings before the 2024 election and the indictment included just four counts. while it referred to six unindicted co-conspirators, but only trump was charged. the indictment brought by fani willis included 41 counts against the former president and allegations against niz long roster of co-defendants. one stream line built with concession and speed in mind and the other more comprehensive in speaking accountability but also more complex to try, represent

the divergent experience and of the timetables of the two prosecutors. mr. smith is operating in a pailous political environment determined to proceed with -- tear off the band aid dispatch. miss willis waned to go to trial and well aware that linking trump to so many co-defendants could slow down the process substantially. two very different approaches and neither of them represent good news for the ex president. joining us on this glenn thrush, and all that reporting and former u.s. attorney now a law professor at the university of michigan, barbara mccade and melissa redman is here prosecutor from the fulton county district attorney's office and now a professor at the university georgia school of law. and this is great analyst that you and colleagues did. tith -- just take us through what you set out to do. >> in terms of the two

prosecutions, when smith took over in november, last november, he put out a very brief statement and in that brief statement he said essentially that he wanted to move as quickly as possible. at the time, justice department officials told us that was essentially to move ahead as quickly -- sort of outrace the political calendar in 2024. there are also other reasons. and what was very interesting about being in judge chutkan's courtroom on monday, was she laid out a whole host of other reasons to move ahead more quickly with this case than the trump team wanted to do. john lauro, trump's lead attorney in the courtroom, was asked for, as you know, a 2026 trial date. she scoffed at that. and then she articulated, i thought this was really interesting, she went beyond what smith and his team asked for and said is there were two reasons to move quickly.

number one, trump keep saying stuff in public that could taint the jury pool in washington and the other thing that she said that i think resonated in that courthouse, that all of the trials for the january 6 defendants have taken place in. she said it was in the larger public interest to have this done within the memory of the witnesses of that event. so, there is a sense of velocity about the washington prosecution that is not present in fulton county, and also isn't press necessarilyine in the mar-a-lago case. and in fulton county, as we wrote today, even though fani willis made that move in court yesterday, to bundle these cases and move ahead quickly, there is no real expectation on the part of her team or anyone else down there that this is going to move quickly. so you have one case that is really about moving it as quickly as possible and in a highly poisonous political

environment. and fani willis who is really -- would really started this investigation, let's not forget, days after the attack on the capital who is opting for a more methodical and comprehensive approach. >> melissa, what is becoming clear and this is where it gets dangerous for us none lawyer to throw the words around. is the efforts like ken cheesebro to set him off and move the case to federal court, some of district attorney fani willis's evidence in some of her case will become public and will reveal itself and i wonder what you make and if you could just play out how both of those processes work and how d.a. fani willis is prepared to proceed and sort of show case or try her case immediately. >> well, i think you have to look at the impact of so many different defendants and their status. so we have the motion to remove from mr. meadows.

he wouldn't be the only defendant who requests a motion to move to federal court. what happens with the case in its entirety, does the entire case move. i would imagine that each defendant would have to make out their own claim of why their case should warrant removal and then the speedy trial demands. we saw the motion yesterday requesting clarification of whether judge macafee was severing and you would imagine that each defendant would have to make a motion to receiver their trial and explain to the court why they don't want to go to trial and why they wouldn't be able to go to trial in october. as opposed to an automatic severance because you have this one or three now defendants who have requested a speedy trial. d.a. willis is going to want to try this case as soon as possible and, of course, in the least amount of time possible. and we know all 19 defendants to go to trial and you don't want to try the case 19 times. so she does have a vested

interest to consolidate it as much as possible, depending on what the law will allow with the motions to remove and those speedy trial demands. >> reverend mcquade, something i've learned from eight years of covering donald trump and getting to know people like yourself, is prosecutors may or may not have the speed or the pacing in mind, but they always, always have the prospect of victory in mind. and so, i think it is worth noting that each prosecutor is bringing a case that they believe is most likely to win, to prevail. you could take us through how that affected those strategies? >> yes, so it is a constant challenge for prosecutors to think about whether they should bring a small narrow case, or a big comprehensive case. and of course the goal in all of these is to see justice prevail, which if they're bringing the case means they believe the person is guilty and they want

to prove it. so i've seep people sometimes try to boil the ocean and that is a phrase prosecutors use. you don't need to boil the ocean. where they go big and they bring in everything, and the danger there is it could take a long time, it is a lot for a jury to work through, there could be jury confusion and you could lose witnesses along the way and lose jurors along the way. so sometimes you could be your own worst enemy by making a case too big. on the other hand, stream lining is not the best answer either. i've seen cases where the prosecutors got too narrow, where they have a number of different extremes to choose from and decided to go with only the one scheme they thought was the strongest and cleanest and easiest to prove and when they did, the jury returned a not guilty verdict and one juror said i wanted to see a little more before i was ready to convict somebody. i thought maybe this was just one mistake. and so there is that balance, that give and take of finding just the right course. but here, i think you're right, that jack smith feels a lot of pressure to get this done before the election, which is why he's

charged only donald trump and named some co-conspirators, but has not charged them. whereas fani willis, said i want the jury to see the whole thing. 19 defendants, all of the extremes and including coffee county and intimidation of ruby freeman and shay moss. so it is all there. and in some ways the two cases kind of complement each other, because we get the stream line narrow case and the broader more comprehensive one. >> glenn, let me ask you this about mark meadows four hours testifying in his own efforts to move his georgia racketeering indictment to federal court. did it cast any light on what he may have shared with jack smith in his investigation and indictment in the case of the prosecution of trump in the federal case? >> i think it was fairly consistent with what we had been generally hearing about his interactions with the prosecutors. i think nothing was particularly ref lattory. what is interesting and to

barbara's point, is that you're seeing a splintering, right, meadows is represented by george willinger, who is probably the best defense lawyer currently representing anybody in any of these cases. and this is clearly an attempt to differentiate himself. but you're going to be seeing that from each of these individual defendants and one of the advantages that willis has that smith doesn't have is this dynamic in which everyone is racing to save their own skin and they're not -- they're not behaving as a unified front as trump has the luxury of doing in d.c., one case, one defendant, one defense team, although it is likely to change. here you have a dynamic in which meadows is attempting to assert his own individual defense, others are going to continue to do that themselves. but the bottom line is there is only one place for any of those people to point and that is up.

>> right. >> and that is at donald trump. so it creates a dynamic potentially that could be very toxic for the former president. >> barbara, there is something so interesting about how the laws of relativity into our brains in relative terms put storage to willinger as the most skilled person representing an alleged insurrection plotter and that is absolutely the case. but i wonder how sustainable it is for him to sort of keep threading the needle. what do you think he's actually told jack smith about trump's role in january 6? >> yeah, it is difficult to know, nicolle. i was very surprised when we mark meadows name on the indictment coming out of georgia. because the fact he was not described as an unindicted co-conspirators in the federal case had led me to conclude that he was cooperating with jack smith. but he is an excellent lawyer and he most certainly would not have cooperated in one form and

not the other. and any defendants wants to have a global resolution if they're going to plead and cooperate. so it causes me to wonder to what extent he has cooperated in jack smith's investigation. that remanes to be seen. so he was -- his testimony on monday is going to -- was not reffa lattory. he talks about things that are very much in the public record. so maybe he thought he had nothing to lose by doing that. knowing that anything that he said that was false would be used against him by jack smith and could kill in i sort of deal he might have there. >> so interesting. we need all of you to stick around a little bit longer. we to sneak in a break. but when we come back, we'll have much more about what comes back in the two dig investigations into trump's attempts to overturn his defeat in 2020. plus trump attorney john eastman appeared on fox news yesterday as one does in that

circumstance i suppose. we'll tell but it. and almost three years since their lives were upended and altered by donald trump and the lies he told about the election in georgia, georgia election workers ruby freeman and shay moss have won their defamation lawsuit against rudy giuliani. we'll tell you all about that and aall of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. where t. -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients

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indicted over 12,000 cases. this is the 11th rico indictment. we follow the same process. we look at the fakes, we look at the law and we bring charges. >> she is no nonsense all of the time and that is fulton county, georgia, district attorney fani willis. according to brand-new reporting from our greg bluestein she's been targeted by georgia republicans including the georgia senate leader who is seeking ways to sanction willis over the trump charges. and who claims that they, quote, believe she, fani willis, is tainted and is, quote, politicizing this. we're back with glenn and barbara and melissa. melissa, i'm a student of d.a. fani willis just since she took on this case. she's been quite transparent and she's actually done a lot purpo security it would appear and for the purposes of her role as a

public servant. but there is never anything reported suggesting any taint of politics. tell us where you think these attacks are coming from? >> i think the attacks are political in nature. to allege that a prosecutor who is duly effected by the citizens is pursuing charges for some type of political benefit. it is ridiculous in my mind. given the nature of the type of case that you have to prosecute and the breadth of cases, different types of cases you have to prosecute. everyone from indigent defendants to millionaires get prosecuted in fulton county. and i think we saw this in the conversation around senatession that they tried to use to sanction d.a. willis. it was part of the conversation at that time, why this bill and why now. a lot of people don't want to have the conversation around the fact that there was a proposal

for a similar bill to govern the actions of prosecutors to at least to address the prosecutors when we had a d.a. in the ahmaud arbery case and involving employees of her office and the confirmation at that time was it wasn't necessary. but flash forward a few years later and someone in a certain political party is being prosecuted and this bill is so -- it is brought forth in the one legislative session, which rarely happens in georgia, one legislative session and signed immediately into law and now we have a threat of senator wanting to use it because of a prosecutor's decision to prosecute a particular case. and i think that in itself is a problem and when you have influence of politicians into how prosecutors exercise their discretion. >> well, and the fascinating thing about georgia, glenn, is

that this is trump aligned republicans trying to punish a nonpolitical prosecutor who built her case based on the testimony of trump supporting republicans. her star witnesses are brian kemp and brad reffensberger and the fake electors themselves. so the case doesn't exist without people in the same political tribe. it is so flagrantly political, but it is -- if you sort of widen the lens, it is a tactic and a tool being pulled out of the toolkits by people like ron desantis and others. >> it is also a tape of trump in georgia. that is the rumor. >> so i've heard. >> right. but, you know, this has echoes in history, i don't want to go far back into the way back machine, but if you look at post bellum stuff after the civil war when you have legislators taking actions to infringe on people's

rights, and i think the other parallel that immediately pops to mind, there are a lot of legislative intrusions now into both judicial and executive processes. the one that i had the experience with recently was the hunter biden sentencing hearing. in which the house ways and means committee filed a motion with the court on the eve of hunter biden's sentencing. whatever you think of hunter biden or that process, it was a pretty extraordinary effort of the legislative branch to attempt to influence a judicial process and a prosecutorial process that is ultimately supposed to be controlled by the executive branch. so you're seeing, i think, both on capitol hill here in washington, and in state legislatures around republican-controlled supermajority state legislators becoming increasingly aggressive in terms of seeking to counter act what others are doing, sometimes really pressing the

boundaries of separation of powers. >> it is such a -- it is a better widening of the lens that i did, barbara. and i really appreciate that. because the common thread, right, the common taint is one of the country's two political parties, it is the republican, the gop and what is distressing to me is successfully reaching into a criminal investigation into the president's son. the republicans in the legislature who sort of have had the sector of punishing d.a. fani willis for a while proceeding with that or saying that they will. we talk a lot about the rule of law and whether it could with stand this autocratic impulse from the republican party. these seem like developments to watch before we could answer that question. what do you think, barb? >> i do. you know, we have this jim jordan weaponization committee looking into the weaponization of government, and we've seen allen -- alvin bragg stand tall

but you'll never who shrunk. who said i don't want to put myself through that and called about congress and testify and i have my re-election to worry about and i'm going to put my head down because he who does nothing, does nothing wrong. we want prosecutors to bring cases when powerful people violated the law. and so i think a big part of this game is in -- intimidation. and anyone else who was out there who might dare to take on the wealthy and powerful is who they're after, the next one. and so this success of fani willis an the success of alvin bragg is important to the rule of law in this country. >> melissa thank you for having this conversation with us. we'll stay on this. my colleague rachel maddow has been all over there and she's right to be paying close attention. glenn and barb stick around. when we come back, john eastman, he took to fox news to make

claims that are easily refuted by his own emails. we'll ask the question whether that damaging his own attempt at a defense. that is next. being middle class right now, it's tough making ends meet for sure. republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the biggest corporations the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. right. joe biden would rather just stop those corporations from charging so damn much. capping the cost of drugs like insulin. cracking down on surprise medical bills and all those crazy junk fees. there's more work to do. tell the president to keep lowering costs for middle class families.

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so this happened last night. john eastman, the disgraced co-defendant in the case to over turn the 2020 election in georgia, unindicted co-conspirators number two in jack smith's case, went on fox news to discuss the details of

the ongoing case against him. claiming there is no evident that he knew he was trying to illegally overturn an election. watch that. >> on the rico side of the fulton county case, that would require findings of bad faith. that would have to be you all basically agreeing, implicitly, explicitly that you know this was all phony and to that you say? >> well, they've got all of the evidence, they've got all of my emails, my phone was seized over a year ago and that was seized as well and i challenge them to find a single email that supports that implausible theory. >> challenge accepted. here is what is in his own emails. this is what the select committee found in that guy's emails. watch. >> dr. eastman himself admitted in an email that the fake electors have no legal weight. referring to the fake electors

as quote, dead on arrival in congress. >> so even after the attack on the capitol, dr. eastman requests in writing no less that the vice president violate the law by delaying the certification and setting the question back to the states. is that correct, mr. jacob? >> it is. >> just a few days later dr. eastman emailed rudy giuliani and requesting that he be included on a list of potential recipients of a presidential pardon. >> we'll talk with glenn and barbara. i kind of feel bad for anybody who platforms john eastman. i mean, does he -- i don't even understand what his in his imagine, his defense is, barbara mcquade, an attorney like john eastman has a reputation for being intelligent and could count to 60 as well as i could. they lost 60 of 62 cases. there was no fraud, they never found any and most of them admitted it in emails to phone

calls to others and like rusty bowers that there wasn't any fraud. >> this is all a p.r. campaign. so in court this will fail miserably because they'll have the emails. and you know that. but the game at this end is convince as many voters as possible that this is all a bunch of nothing and there is no crime and they've done nothing wrong and this is a good faith legal challenge and if donald trump could get himself elected, before this case ever goes to trial, by convincing enough people that this is all made up, then that is the best defense they have. they may find that the trial date happens before they could go to trial. but, you know, trial gates get re-set and adjourned for various reasons. i have heard people i talk with, people who are reasonably intelligent and function in this world say i hate to see the way that the criminal justice system has been weaponized against donald trump. and they are listening to people like john eastman and believing people like john eastman. so i think they will continue to pound the airwaves with these

falsehood, verifiable falsehoods because they trust that the public does not have the ability to fact check them. >> obviously she does have the ability to fact check him on the january 6 hearings, on my tv and i don't remember if they were on fox or not. but i guess other thing that we've learned back in the court of law, state of mind is so central and we have a lot of public facing evidence of eastman's state of mind. we know that he was the one that said, we'd only lose 7-2 in the supreme court. no, you're right, 9-0. so he knows that his gam bit is unconstitutional and it violates the electoral count act and he committed crimes before he seeks a pardon. he seems to be in deep doo doo legally. >> that is a legal term. i don't know the latin for it. but, if someone could tell us what the latin for that is. no, but i think all you need to

know is that a believe excerpts from -- i could be wrong about this, i've read a lot of indictments over the past couple of weeks. but i think there is a quote from one of eastman's emails in jack smith's indictment of donald trump. i mean, there is a general sense, i think, and i think bash hit the nail right on the head, and you even saw it in the courtroom on monday, with john lauro trump's attorney essentially making the same kind of argument that you hear them make on -- on cable tv, right. that they are persecuted, so they are still -- they are appearing to be entirely convinced that making this larger political argument, whether it extends as far as the notion of trump being re-elected and issuing a new set of pardons or influencing a jury pool perhaps. but all of them, and this includes a lot of trump's legal team, apparently, at least in the washington case, that making this case in public in these broad kind of political terms is

going to advantage them -- advantage them in the long-term. but i'm telling you, we've seen in court after court, judges are not accepting these arguments. >> glenn, why do you think trump didn't pardon himself and cheesebro and rudy before he left. >> that is a really good question. i've read a lot about this and no one has an answer for that. he could have done that. i think he probably didn't realize the extent of the trouble that he was in and i don't think, and i know this have having spoken with people in his orbit, i don't think he thought the justice department would go after him. i think there was a general sense that he was going to be able to operate as he -- as he has in the past, being able to sort of get by without having these really big confrontations with the criminal justice system. >> yeah, i mean, i think barbara, there is an interesting

piece of how he operated and the brazenness with which he broke the law and the brazenness with which he sought to get other republicans to break the law with and for him, that in some ways provides jack smith with some of his best evidence against him. >> yeah, i think that breaking the law with impunity is just how donald trump rolls. i think it is part of the authoritarian playbook of showing i'm above the law and i'm untouchable and giving himself a pardon is an admission of guilt. it means i don't think i did anything wrong. but because he does so many of these things in broad daylight, i did it in broad daylight and think that argument will fail because we have recordings of the call from brad rafrensberger and what he said publicly and so at the end of the day, if the rule of law holds and i believe

it will, these statements will be used against him to convict him. >> and he associated himself with the people who committed their violent crimes in broad daylight. and he recorded a song with the violent insurrectionist. he said he would pardon them and made it a litmus test in the republican primary. he association sated -- associated himself with all of the crimes. thank you so much for spending time with us today on these developments an glenn, thank you for your reporting on this. when we come back, mitch mcconnell had another situation if you will. he froze up while talking at a press conference earlier this afternoon. we'll show it to you next. t.

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mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri. in what is the second such public incident in just a few weeks, minority leader mitch mcconnell appears to freeze up while trying to talk and struggles to respond to a question from reporters. watch. >> what are your thoughts on running for re-election in 2023? >> running for what? >> running for re-election in 2023? >> did you hear the question, senator? running for re-election in 2026? >> yeah. >> i'm sorry, we're going to need a minute.

thanks. >> okay. >> so the spokesperson for senator mcconnell tells nbc news that mcconnell at that moment in that moment quote, felt momentarily light headed and paused during his press conference today and that he will be consulting a physician before his next public event. joining our coverage, charlie sykes. i think i have some video up. i want to put it up on the screen of this the last time this happened and we asked you to talk about it then. this is him, he was -- it was a question, this one was in washington and he stopped, almost the same thing. he was asked the question and able to respond and then some of his senate republicans colleagues almost exact same response to the people around him, touch him physically, and lead him away from the podium in

that instance. to be perfectly clear about three things. one, no doctors have been booked for this segment. i have to idea what this behavior represents. two, it doesn't come across very often, but i believe all of the people in the arena are human beings and i hope that if it is a medical issue, i wish him well. three, he's one of the most prominent leaders of a party that kicks the you know what out of the current president ever time he misspeaks. this is behavior that is truly concerning and i wonder what you make of it and how you think we should talk about it? >> well, it is very, very painful to watch that. and you know, agree with all of your points here. i am not a doctor. and i'm not going to try to diagnose it. but this is disturbing and it is not the first time. and unfortunately, this is a reminder of what happens when our politics are dominated by

geriatrics. and i don't mean that in an unkind way. it is a reminder of the humanity of our political leaders. they are human beings and as a result many of these institutions are as a result a united states if he is not able to perform, that does change the dynamics of politics. it changes dynamics in the leadership of the senate. but also within the republican party given his role not only as a critic of joe biden, but as a potential thorn in the side of donald trump. but this is a sad and very disturbing incident. and as in many of these cases, you do hope that there are people around him and his family, in his circle who love him and want to take care of him

as opposed to continuing to push him on to the center stage. at a certain point in your life, i think there is the acknowledgment that you move on with your life. but again, it is painful. i find it difficult to talk about this. i find it difficult to watch all this. and i wish him the best. but the stakes are very high and the consequences are going to be very significant. >> there is a real distinction. i want to -- i guess i had a fourth point, it would have been i'm not an ageist. i don't think this is about age. i think this, in this case is about two public instances where one of the basic functions of being a public servant is when you stand at a podium. it is ostensibly to say somebody publicly. he has been unable to set out what he set out to do, that is to take the podium to fill a question. wasn't able to carry out

whatever mission he set outdo when he stepped up to the mic. it's about an inability to function he set out to do when he took to the podium. i wonder if you think we're a country capable of having that nuanced conversation. it's not about the age. it's about the inability to do what mitch mcconnell set out to do when he stood before the microphone. >> well, obviously, that is the central issue. but it is also about the age. and we're going to have to confront this. as a country. and you asked whether we're able to have a nuanced conversation. and unfortunately, i'm not sure that we are. >> yeah. >> because you know the hyper partisans will pounce on this. if something like this happened to president joe biden next year, could you imagine what republicans would do? can you imagine what it would mean for the presidential race? do you think there would be this kind of restraint and sensitivity on fox news, for example. >> charlie, i don't have to imagine. joe biden sat here and did a 20-minute live interview with me, got up to say hi to reverend

al sharpton, and i think they're still playing the clip on fox news. we don't have to imagine it. it's happening. >> we do not live in an age where there is nuanced and sensitive reaction to these sorts of things. so no. but again, this is part of the debate that we have to have, particularly when we have a gerentocacy. we have other members of the united states senate that also have very significant problems and appear not able to actually perform. and yet people are reluctant to say this and to take action to restore the legitimate representation of the voters here. we've seen what the consequences might be for supreme court justices, who, you know, simply do not know when it is time to say enough. but, again, this is a moment where i think that we need to just hope that mitch mcconnell is better, that his family is able to rally around him and get

him the best medical attention, and that he makes the right decisions, you know, in his own interests and in the interests of the united states senate and of his family, of the people who care about him. >> and of his constituents, he represents the interests of actual people. to your point, we for now live in a democracy where people sent him there. people sent all these people to their offices, the offices that they hold. in the case of mitch mcconnell, though, it looks like there is a lot to certainly be concerned about. charlie is stick around for the next hour of conversation. we're taking a quick break. we'll be right back. taking a quk we'll be right back. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief...

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matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire today a federal judge dealt a devastating blow to ex-trump white house adviser peter navarro's defense in his upcoming trial over criminal contempt charges. that's over his refusal to comply with a subpoena issued by the january 6th select committee last year. the judge stated that as part of

his defense in court, navarro cannot argue before a jury that he was barred by executive privilege claims from donald trump from providing testimony and documents to the select committee. navarro has provided nothing, not a shred of evidence to prove that trump invoked executive privilege. in fact, the judge described navarro's testimony on this as, quote, pretty weak sauce, end quote. the trial is set to begin september 5th. we'll be watching. coming up for us, another trump ally loses big in court today. that story in the next hour of "deadline: white house" after a very short break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. we're keeping our eyes on what's happening with hurricane idalia as it makes its way through georgia now and is heading toward the carolinas. the storm has slowed substantially, but is still bringing heavy rains and winds. just a few minutes ago, the national hurricane center downgraded idalia to a tropical

storm. we'll have the latest on idalia and where it's heading in a little bit. but we kick off this hour with a big win for democracy, a big win for the truth. rudy giuliani's lies about donald trump's loss in georgia tore apart, forever altered the lives of election workers ruby freeman and her daughter shea moss. we played on this program clips of both women explaining what their lives became, the horrors they went through, the threats to their lives and safety, the harassment, the seemingly permanent loss of their personal security, even needing to leave their homes for a period of time out of fear for their safety. today in a blistering ruling from a u.s. district court judge, beryl howell, rudy giuliani was found legally liable for defaming both of them. that verdict came because rudy giuliani failed to comply with the lawsuit's discovery obligations. the suit is the one where just last month rudy giuliani conceded that he made in his

words, quote, false statements about these two women. these two georgia election worker, mother and daughter. giuliani was no longer arguing that his statements about these two women, mother and daughter, were ever true. just at the statements that he made that destroyed the lives of a mother and daughter were statements that in his view were protected by the first amendment. it's an argument that judge howell called out in her ruling this way, quote, giuliani's stipulations hold more holes than swiss cheese, with his latest stipulation expressly reserving his arguments that the statements complained of are protected and nonactionable opinion for purposes of appeal. the reservations in giuliani's stipulations make clear his goal to bypass the discovery process and merits trial. yet just as taking shortcuts to win an election carries risks, even potential criminal liability, bypassing the discovery process carries serious sanctions. today's ruling means that the

next step in this case will be a civil trial where a jury only has to decide the amount of damages giuliani has to pay moss and freeman. that is on top of the judge already ruling that he must pay more than $130,000 in sanctions for not handing over relevant information to the plaintiffs. in response, giuliani's political adviser put out a statement that says this, quote, this 57-page opinion on discovery, which would usually be no more than two or three pages, is a prime example of -- wait for it. jim jordan could have written this, folks -- weapons inspection of the justice system where the process is the punishment. this decision should be reversed as mayor giuliani is wrongly accused of not preserving electronic evidence that was seized and held by the fbi, end quote. rudy giuliani's lies about shea moss and her mom also feature prominently in the fulton county indictment that came down two weeks ago. among his other charges,

giuliani was indicted criminally for spreading false statements about them to georgia legislators. that is where we start the hour. some of our favorite experts and friends. professor of law at the university of utah and first amendment scholar renel anderson jones. plus charlie sykes is still here. with me at the table host of fast politics podcast and "vanity fair" spreshl correspondent molly is here. and veterans of america and host of the independent americans podcast paul reickhoff is here. renel, let's take this sort of piece by piece. rudy giuliani feels like is in the same place fox arrived at with dominion where the facts are not in dispute. a jury is just going to have to decide what the appropriate damages or punishment is. is that right? >> you're right that this case

is one and in fact was among the first of the suits filed trying to take advantage of defamation law as a tool for combatting 2020 election disinformation. it means that it's been in the court for a long while, which is part of the source of the judge's frustration here. the plaintiffs in these cases have been arguing not just that these knowing lies damaged democracy as a whole, but also that they caused targeted specific damage to them, that they turned their lives upside down and were the source of pretty significant harassment both online and in person. and you're right that there is a connection between this and the wider set of suits that are happening here. in fact, the judge in today's order makes clear that part of what she suspects might have been giuliani's strategy in this case was to hold back on

engaging in discovery in this case, hold back on providing the kind of material that he is obligated by law to provide because he was fearful that that information might be useful to others in other suits, including prosecutors. and the judge really wasn't having it. this is a fairly scathing 57 page document in which she makes clear that when you are involved in a lawsuit, you have an obligation to provide to the other party the materials that are necessary for the litigation of that suit. and having been warned repeatedly and having been sanctioned repeatedly, and having still failed to provide that material, giuliani now faces a default judgment. he is essentially now found liable for it and we move forward to the damages stage. >> ronell, i may have my political history wrong, but i believe it was joe biden, maybe in the 2008 cycle that accused

rudy giuliani as sort of a speaker of having every sentence include a noun, a verb and 9/11. i mean, rudy giuliani of 2023 seems to be a guy with a noun, a verb and the first amendment. what are we learning? and i know two isn't a pattern. we need one more. but what are we learning from these defamation cases about the limits of the first amendment? >> well, i think the judge made clear in this case, and judges have made clear in other cases, including importantly, the fox dominion suit, that simply wrapping up one's knowingly false statements of fact in a package of opinion is not going to be enough to claim first amendment protection. the court in the fox case and the court here made clear that these arguments about first amendment protection, the sort

of arguments that i was only asking questions, or i was only floating political opinions can't be invoked in a defamation case when the assertions are assertions of fact, statements that are provably true or false that a person was engaged in election fraud, that a person was sneaking ballots in suitcases, that a person was handing a usb drive to someone else. those are assertions of fact that are provably true or false, and giuliani himself conceded a month ago that they were not false. and so we see that there is an appeal to arguing first amendment claims in these sorts of cases. but also, the courts are being quite critical of them when the core statements that are at issue are things that are not opinion at all, but rather are simply bold statements of falsity that the plaintiffs say

they can prove the speaker knew were false at the time they said them. >> charlie, there is also a hollowness, right? the people clinging to the first amendment as personal criminal defenses are the same people who did blink or blush when trump described all the media as the enemy of the people. they're not actually arguing for the protection of the first amendment in the united states of america. they're arguing for the right to knowingly lie and defame and damage. and in the case of shea moss and ruby freeman, forever alter their lives and take away forever their sense of personal security. >> yeah. there are consequences. rudy giuliani is a liar and a fraud, and now he's got a court ruling that underlines this. and ruby and shea are able to get some justice. this reliance on the first amendment is so deeply cynical, because, of course, all acts of defamation, all acts of fraud, of conspiracy involve some sort

of speech. and that speech is not protected if you are engaging in this kind of defamation. so this is an important moment. it's part of this extraordinary fall from grace of rudy giuliani. but it is a reminder that there are courts of law where the rules of truth and evidence are very, very different than the political world and social media. and rudy giuliani is finding that out. and hopefully donald trump will soon as well. >> i want to show people the behavior, but i want to read a little bit more from judge howell's ruling. judge howell writes this. donning a cloak of victimization may play well on a public stage to certain audiences, but in a court of law, this performance has served only to subvert the normal process of discovery in a straight forward defamation case, with the concomitant necessity of a repeated court intervention. the war on the rule of law, i

feel like we see the iceberg where it sticks out from the ocean, but we don't see all the ways that people like rudy and eastman -- we talked about it in the last hour -- and others try to manipulate the rule of law in their myriad filings, try to wear it down. i think more than any other branch of government, the judiciary has said no, not here. >> the judiciary is holding the line. i mean, 22 years ago, i was at ground zero when rudy giuliani was america's mayor. he was role model. he was hero. and to watch the disgusting transformation, the fall from grace, and just the meanness, the nastiness, where now he is the opposite of a role model for our children has been stunning. it's been bad for america. it's bad for our discourse. it's bad for our children. but i think this may be the year of accountability. we may be entering an age of accountability where the rule of law still exists in america, and we can show our children and show the world that america is a place where you will be held accountable. whether you're weather you're

fox news or giuliani or the president of the united states. we're fighting lew this terrible period where we can finally start to see some light where our structures and institutions are holding. >> you see light? >> i do. i think you have to. if you don't, what have you got left? we had our military held at times, our capitol hill police held at time, our judicial systems holding at times. that's got to be the rebar right now for this set in concrete that is the next phase of america. >> i love that idea. i've been thinking about sort of these conversations i had last week kind of took me a minute to process. but judge esther salas, his son was killed. someone came to assassinate her and he took the bullet, and she believes he saved her life and husband. she can't talk about him without crying. judge luttig was on the program the next day talking about the 14th amendment and putting all of his mighty legal intellect to articulate and write with laurence tribe a legal framework for keeping someone like donald

trump from ever ascending to the presidency again. and i want to feel what you feel. i want to feel this optimism. but i see in the manipulation of the legal process and on programs where they'll still platform the likes of john eastman whose conduct isn't in question. this idea of known falsity is so fascinating to me, because it may finally be a trap door through which all these people knowingly lied will some day fall. >> i think what we're all worrying, not to go more negative here, but there are reverberations. there are election workers. there are people who will not work at elections because they've seen what happened. >> you think the damage is already done? >> i think there is a lot of damage. i don't know that it's not fixable, but it's hard to quantify, right? it's funny. i once interviewed nancy pelosi about her husband being attacked, and she said the thing that upset her most is that women are not going run for office, because they're worried about their families. so that is the question. what does the reverberation look like? and that we can't know.

but certainly these civil cases are amazing, and they're slightly lower bar, and trump is struggling with e. jean carroll. that's another civil case. and there is a moment for accountability and financial accountability. >> let me do this, ronnell. this is a exhibit put together by the january 6th select committee. this is what rudy said about -- what rudy said about ruby freeman and shea moss. >> taped earlier in the day of ruby freeman and shea freeman moss and one other gentlemen quite obviously surreptitiously passing around usb ports as if they're vials of heroin or cocaine. >> what was your mom actually handing you on that video? >> a ginger mint. >> and let me do one more here. let me also play what donald trump said about ruby freeman to georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger.

>> we had at least 18,000 that's on tape. we had them counted very painstakingly, 18,000 voters having to do with ruby freeman. she's a vote scammer, a professional vote scammer and hustler. ruby freeman, that was the tape that's been shown all over the world that makes everybody look bad, you, me, and everybody else. >> so i want to deal with the legality of it. let me just say that talking about vials of cocaine and calling someone a scammer and a hustler is also racist. trump and rudy both make flagrantly racist comments about these women who were the best among us, election workers, helping their neighbors figure out how to vote. ronnell, we know from the testimony that doj officials provided that this allegation

was perhaps inappropriately but nonetheless investigated by doj. they actually looked into this, what bill barr would call bull bleep. i won't say it. and they looked into it. i wonder how the known falsity of those smears played into and maybe sealed rudy giuliani's defeat in this case. >> yes, that's the case in a number of these what we might characterize as pro-democracy defamation actions that are being brought at the moment. it isn't just that a lie was told, and it isn't just that a lie caused harm to defamatory harm to the targets of it, it is that the lie was continued well after investigations at courts and by election officials and by department of justice and by other key investigative units demonstrated that it was not

true. and that kind of digging in with a lie in the aftermath of it being disproven, being carefully investigated and disproven is the sort of thing that is classic actual malice. it's knowing falsity because you were possessed of information that showed that it wasn't true. and in a number of these cases, we see these actual malice claims moving to the brink of prevailing, or at least being made in really powerful exhibits to the courts. there is good reason to believe that the reason giuliani conceded the falsity of this claim is there simply never was any evidence of its truth. and that's really troubling. and you can see that it's troubling to the judge. it's troubling to the judge in this case that the court didn't have the chance to engage in the

dynamic that it wanted to engage in. and that it doesn't have a litigant who participated in the process in the appropriate way. and we'll now see those arguments about the harm that this lie did coming to the forefront at the damages stage of this suit. >> charlie, it surprised no one has sued trump for defamation? >> well, the door is wide open. we're seeing the courts are willing to entertain this. i want to seize on paul's note of optimism here. because so many of the guardrails have collapsed or failed over the last few years. and what we are seeing is that the courts are still standing. and they are still willing to hold people accountable. and i think that is extraordinary. now, again, molly's also right that there is a lot of damage being done, and of course i think nicolle, you made

reference to. we're about to see a full frontal attack by the republican party on the criminal justice system. a handful of democrats said defund the police, and the trump is right, saying hold our beer. we want to defund the entire criminal justice system, defund the prosecutors, defund law enforcement. so they understand the danger. i think that trump understands the danger that the legal system has to hold him accountable and what it would mean if the legal system holds him accountable including for defamation as well as many other crimes which is why we are about to see this epic struggle to discredit and delegitimize the entire criminal justice system, which i have to tell you is -- continues to be genuinely surprised even after eight years to watch a party that once claimed that it was the party of law and order, now going all in, not just nominating and supporting a convicted felon, but undermining all of these judicial processes, including the search for truth. >> right.

and i guess what i was reminded of is they're not processes, right? they're people. they're mothers, they're children who answer the door. i think that as we cover their attack on the rule of law, it is for me forever changed in that you don't attack the rule of law, you attack the people who uphold the rule of law. and they're people. they're moms and they're dads and they're people. when the right puts their names and pictures all over the internet and holds baseball bats, other people do stupid things. they can't control what those people do. but they certainly inspire a whole lot of hatred. we'll stay on it. ronnell andersen jones, you inspire a lot of intelligent conversation about these issues. thank you so much for starting us off on this. everyone else sticks around. when we come back, the crush of criminal cases against the ex-president is colliding headfirst with the presidential campaign season, making real the possibility that republicans will not nate a convicted felon for president.

that conversation is next. also ahead, very latest on idalia, now downgraded to a storm, but still a grave threat to the people and the coast of georgia and the carolinas after thrashing through florida, tongue twister, earlier today. and later, there is new reporting on why jack smith's prosecutors were at the white house. no surprise it's not at all what the disgraced ex-president says it was. after a quick break. don't go anywhere. where. game today? (hero fan) uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. switch now and they'll give you nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv, on them. (hero fan) this plan is amazing! (josh allen) another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. (fan #1) that was josh allen. (fan #2) mmhm. (vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. book a work trip. earn onekeycash. shake some hands.

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just the first few seconds of brand-new political ad airing in new hampshire. it was put out by a superpac backing presidential candidate chris christie. we show it to you for a few reasons. among them, it's the first attack ad in this campaign where trump's mug shot is used against him. it has been used by him i guess and for him, using it to raise money. but chris christie is the first to use it against him. it's a striking image that makes what the majority of the republican party doing by maintaining its support for trump in spite of the multiple indictments just real but surreal. inexplicable, indefensible, gross. the ex-president could clinch the nomination before the gop knows if he is a felon.

we're back with charlie. i guess, guys, that's the point. this is who they are. >> this is a rorschach. trump's people love it. people are campaigning, using it. what i think is the most interesting thing about it, which maggie haberman reported which i haven't seen reported a lot, he's trying to look like churchill. he is making -- seriously. he is making a churchill face, which means a, he knows who churchill. >> he doesn't know who churchill. somebody told him. just stop right here. my last ever bite of a krispy kreme donut. he came to the table. take that down. i don't use that anymore. he has no idea who churchill. i believe what vaughn has reported that he is leaning into this moment. >> right. >> because he is invited in four places. he has to. there is no other play. >> i think that's the strategy. but also, with regard to

christie and everything else, it's football season now. this is a race for qb 2. quarterback 1 has been established. they're all fighting to be tom bred's backup right now. christie's play has been to be the attack dog, to be the savior of the gop, to be the one guy who will throw punches at trump repeatedly. he is making the play that independents can vote in new hampshire and turn the tables in new hampshire, but it's a bad bet. independents aren't excited about voting for christie. but that's his strategy right now. and i think it's going to fail. it's a good strategy for a general election, but he is not running in a general election. >> christie is famous for bridgegate. where he took down the bridge. it was a huge scandal. i'm not sure that person can make a case on honesty. >> well, listen, i don't know -- i left the party for many reasons. one, i don't know what's up and

what's down. i will say this. liz cheney had an impact on the midterms. >> yeah. >> liz cheney is a conservative republican named cheney kicking the you know what out of donald trump every day for a year before the midterms, had an impact on what voters did. i don't think we know for a fact that chris christie can't have the same kind of impact on what voters do. >> i think that's absolutely right. and i think we don't know how this is going to play. and if we've seen anything, it's that a lot of this polling has been wrong, right? like all of it. we were expecting a midterm that was going to be a red wave. it ended up being a tiny, tiny bit. i do say i do think they're absolutely weak. none of us know what is going to happen. >> everybody is trying to change chunks out of trump. it look likes he will be the nominee against biden. but he will likely lose. does this influence those independents who i say are going to decide this election 49% of people in the country broadly are independents. in new hampshire, it's much

higher than republicans and democrats. so those are going to continue to be the folks that are going to determine this election, and probably the next couple of elections. and if christie can work on some of them over time, it weakens trump and i think it helps democracy. >> charlie, we've not been here before. we do have some recent history that suggests that the televised onslaught of attacks that liz cheney and adam kinzinger conservative republicans with easy act tess to trump had a dampening effect on republican prospects. it changed what enough voters did that there was no red wave. and it contributed to that. the other piece is the republicans out of the mainstream. republicans are on the other side of 93% of all voters when they back abortion bans that eliminate exceptions for life of a mother. republicans are on the other side of 87% of all mesh people, men, it's not a democrat issue.

they're on the other side of their own voters when they back abortion bans in the state that eliminate exceptions in cases of rape and incest. and they're on the other side of all americans when they support the national ban that they're talking about is 15 weeks. i think that's what came up in the debate. you take those two things. someone cheney, kinzinger like, you take the structural alienation that their abortion position has, and we don't know the impact of those two things pressing on voters for over a year. >> right. and they're not net positives for the republicans or the republican nominee. there has been this morbid curiosity. we've been fixated for the last seven years on the question what are these diners in western pennsylvania saying about why they like donald trump? but keep in mind that this base is a minority of a minority. >> totally. >> and is doing this, because one of the things that trump relies on is this alternative reality silo where you don't

hear someone saying, you know, are you serious? are you seriously going to nominate a guy who has been indicted for times? you understand what this means? and no, it's not going to move the base, because the base is a cult. but to paul's point, this election will not be decided by the base. right be decided in november by independents, by soft republicans, and by democrats who have to decide whether they're motivated enough to turn out. and so when chris christie does this, when liz cheney and adam kinzinger hit donald trump, they may not be talking to us, but they will be talking to people who will make a difference in places like georgia and pennsylvania and michigan and wisconsin and martha's vineyard and arizona next november. so it is important. and i'm glad that he is doing it. >> i have to say it's democrats being able to turn out their

base that gives people -- i mean, the president, let's just say it, the firewall. the fact that we're talking what will happen in georgia, pennsylvania, michigan, i don't look at florida anymore. but we're talking about these states where the independents make up an important perhaps determinative vote. but there are also places where democrats have done years and years, in some cases decades of work to build their coalitions. i hate to have the incomplete conversation about sort of those structural politics. >> i mean, i think what's interesting about all those states is right now almost all of them have democratic governors. >> right. >> which means -- >> in part because of the big lie. katie hobbs beats kari lake. in michigan abortion big-time for governor gretchen whitmer. if trump's godzilla, he is like godzilla's son. they have been tested by voters and they said thank you, no. >> even kansas. >> north carolina. >> first comes new hampshire. and new hampshire's got

democrats are 28%. republicans are 30%, unaffiliated and 41%. >> wow. >> that's what it looks like in new hampshire. that's the strategy here for christie. it might not be for this election. it might be four years from now, eight years from now as he and groups like liz cheney try to take back the republican party or create something new. i think we have to take a longer view and recognize in my view right now the general for republicans is a wash, and they're fighting to see who will be stand when he is gone and what:00 that loose like. in many ways new hampshire is the future, where the biggest percentage is independent. it's not a democratic base. >> go ahead. >> i do think you have these two states, new hampshire and iowa. and if trump wins, those two states, i think it's going to be hard to bring it back. >> charlie, quick last word. 30 seconds. >> yeah, molly is right about that. and i think right now is more likely than not that in fact the republicans will be stuck with nominating donald trump, will nominate him. before they know whether or not

they're going into this general election with a convicted felon. and i'm not sure even if he was, it would make a difference at this point, which says so much about the state of our politics and the republican party these days. >> just like you can stop the sense that it says so much. it says so much. it says so much that we have to utter these sentences and have these conversations. charlie sykes, thank you so much for having time with us today. stick around. we will shift gears to the very latest from the national hurricane center on who is now in the path of what is now a tropical storm idalia. we'll check with meteorologist bill karins in the weather center after a very short break. don't go anywhere.

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switching gears for us, back to the storm. at top of this hour, the national hurricane center downgraded idalia to a tropical storm, but it is still a storm with risks of flooding, storm surge, and strong winds and danger to human lives and property. the storm has now moved into georgia and the carolinas, where it has slowed down substantially. and while major cities in florida seemed to have escaped the worst of it, idalia has left two dead so far. it has caused major flooding, emptied airports, and left more than 450,000 people across power across those three states in some pretty hot summer days. joining us from the national weather center, bill karins. >> from savannah to new

brunswick, up through georgetown, myrtle beach and charleston. charleston when it rains it floods in the downtown when it's a minor shower. the fact that we have heavy torrential plus a storm surge coming in with the super blue moon is all a bad recipe as we go throughout the evening. 75 miles per hour. it's not a hurricane anymore. 75, 70, it doesn't matter. winds are strong enough to still push the water towards the coast as we go through the high tide. for anyone that lives near the coastal areas, that's your concern over the next several hours. once we get past 8:30 sore, start going towards the low tide with 70-mile-per-hour winds, we're fine. it's up to the next two hours if any damages is going to be done. the forecast path near charleston around 9:00, 10:00 and myrtle beach around 2:00 a.m. to 3:00 a.m. it will be edging the coast by the time the sun comes up and done with the storm and in recovery mode in all areas. so the storm surge warning goes from brunswick to savannah to charleston.

of most concern with savannah to charleston. the hurricane center says 2 to 5 feet. right now the storm surge is around 2 feet. we take the high tide, and then because of the storm, add 2 feet. because of the super blue moon, the tides are unusually high anyways. if we add those two together, and if this materializes in the next two hours the way it looks like, we'll have a top ten all-time water level in the city of charleston. right now they're predicting the seventh highest all time. the city records go back about 150 years. we do expect water to be in a lot of places that it normally shouldn't be, and unfortunately probably in some people's homes and businesses too. that's what's developing in the next hour or two. obviously we're still watching the winds. we could have trees falling on homes, cars. the highest winds have been down here north of nfl here, heading new brunswick, saint simon's island. as the center get a little closer, the stronger winds will drive in with the storm surge, and that's where we have the

problems. winds are still projected to get up to about 60 to 70. that's enough to knock down trees and isolated power outages. make sure if you're still watching or listening in those areas, charge your devices and your kids. in case you lose power throughout the overnight hours, at least you have those for communication. and isolated tornadoes are still possible, nicolle. we still have two active tornado warnings. we haven't had any destruction from the tornadoes today, but that from a threat the next couple of hours. everyone holds their breath and we wait to see how bad the flooding is in the southeast. >> you meant to charge your devices, not the charge your kids, right? >> we never want to charge the kids. we want to wear them out. >> we want to drain. >> drain that energy, question. battery up, kids down. >> we know our thoughts are obviously with our people, viewers affected by this. but after, that it is people like you and your colleague angie who have been -- probably on hour 19 or 20. thank you so much for extending

your shift to us. we're grateful. ahead for us, why the disgraced ex-president and his house republican allies will not be happy to know the real story about why one of jack smith's prosecutors had a meeting at the white house in march. we have that brand-new reporting after a very short break for you. don't go anywhere. anywhere.

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documents investigation, accusing president joe biden of being improperly involved in it. over reports that a justice department investigator had a meeting at the white house in march ahead of trump's june indictment. today "the washington post" says new reporting on the meeting that espoused this latest attempt at disinformation and at discrediting the information. according to the post reporting, quote, a federal prosecutor investigating donald trump's alleged mishandling of classified materials went to the white house in march to interview a staffer as part of the probe. they ask that the march meeting between george brad, a senior intelligence gatherer at doj, a dart part of the investigation, according to two people familiar with the meeting who spoke anonymously. and this, quote, this session focused on events that occurred during the trump administration, and according to one of the two people, was about the handling of boxes while trump was president. joining our coverage, former

deputy assistant attorney general and former u.s. attorney harry litman. molly and paul are still with us. harry, this careful sort of protection of whoever this person was prerest minds me of those jokes that there is a car crash and they take them to the hospital who is the surgeon. you try to figure out who this person is and isn't. it clearly or appears to be either someone with a career function by nature, because they're there during the trump administration, the biden administration, someone that is involved in the disposition of classified documents, or somebody in the intelligence agencies. tell me if you think any of that is off base, and tell me what you think about the need to fact check a constant stream of disinformation from trump? >> no, nothing is off base. this is really one of the silliest charges i've ever heard, and that's saying something. i think it's pretty clear that the person is a career staffer in the white house, has something to do with the

handling. but the person is a witness in a criminal investigation. the idea that you wouldn't go for that reason and speak to that person? look, there are rules for when you go to the white house. you must follow the rules. i myself went both as a career person and a political person. but one of the ones that would be unavoidable is this person is a witness. you go and talk to them and find out what happened. that is so, you know, silly to try to -- what they supposed to do. just ignore the witness? it's really inane, even by the standards of some of these charges. >> it's really inane, even by trump standards is a lot coming from harry. he is very, very -- kash patel has some sort of limited immunity. the star witness, evan corcoran. trump as much bigger problems than some career person that works in the government. >> i also think that one of the

problems here is these people do not believe there could ever be these nonpartisan government workers. >> right. >> this is inconceivable. >> a unicorn. >> in trump's mind. who would honestly do a job just to serve the country? it's crazy. so i do think there is that. but also, these people are trying to spin anything they, right? this is this steve bannon thing try to make everyone look corrupt so your guy looks less corrupt. >> i'm obsessed with this idea of relativity. i also think that we learn through news reports that they've annihilated the notion, and i think they used mark meadows' testimony to do this if there was nebraska any standing declassification order. if you ever spent any time in the government and national security it's implausible and impossible. if you declassify, you have to tell everybody involved in gathering the classified material. i always thought that was ludicrous that would make its way into the conversation. but it appears it is a

possibility. again, i'm just theorizing that both the meadows testimony about the nonexistence of any standing declassification order and a visit to somebody who would have been involved in the handling or what happened or the search and the chain of custody of classified material while this president may be connected. >> was maybe connected. >> i don't think the game is working anymore, right? the game the trump's been playing, the game giuliani's been playing the, game all these guys have been playing for years is not working anymore. it's hitting all the guardrails. it's still working with a deep base, but that base is even getting smaller. the circles are closing in. with every indictment, with every news cycle the circle gets smaller and the tactics stay the same. a couple years ago i started saying we wouldn't get our world standing back until trump did a perp walk. people used to say i was crazy. we can see that now. he's got a mugshot, four

indictments. he may actually be held accountable. i think wove got to think about that and how this is playing out on a global stage where our kids are watching and this game is not working anymore. they're being revealed, and never underestimate trump's sloppiness and incompetence, which i think is the most underreported part of this. >> he also presumes, harry, that everyone will be part of the criminal enterprise with him. that's what the rico indictment reveals. and to molly's point, that there won't be anyone who values the state, the government, to country, the men and women who gather the intelligence that leads to the classification in the first place. >> who are, by the way, the vast majority of the government. so the assault on doj, for example, the 95% of career employees, that's who it really demoralized. to paul's point, i 100% agree. but i want to say, i think those two things are connected.

i think there's a visceral way in which the seeing of the mugshot and the like really are peeling away some among his base and making it come home in a real way that i think has som erosive effect on the politics as well, and for sure this is going to continue. we're only taking a crash course in criminal procedure in the politics of it in georgia and d.c. >> harry, that's such an interesting point. like, i have been crashing for eight years on the law, and now because they're colliding these conversations are increasingly knit together. harry litman thank you for joining us. quick break for us, and then we'll be right back. d then we'll be right back.

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thank you so much for letting substance abuse your homes during these extraordinary times. my thanks to ali velshi for helming these hours during monday and tuesday. we are grateful. a. grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts now. >> hi, nicolle. we are covering more than one topic tonight, including the story coming out of this tropical storm idalia. we have to latest on that and what is being estimated as this damage in florida. this storm has barrelled toward the carolinas. we are going to be on that and give you the information you need over the course of this news hour. also later tonight, we have a new special report on trump adviser roger stone. an infamous dirty trickster and his decades long