team center now. and i think it is because of some of the connotation that you are seeing there, and parents have asked questions about why the name change? if there's been any change in what is really happening in that room or not, but that is a central question. parents will be keeping a closer eye on what will be happening this year. >> that's it for me today. i'll see you right back here tomorrow. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. he is practically up to his eyebrows, nearly buried under a crush of indictments, both state and federal for a series of historic alleged criminality. just this afternoon, in fact, we learned not only will donald trump exercise list right to waive his arraignment in fulton county, georgia, where he has pleaded not guilty to racketeering and conspiracy charges brought by district attorney fani willis there.

the proceedings will be live-streamed and televised according to a court order. but trump today is also moving to sever his case from those defendants seeking a speedy trial, insisting their actions would violate his right to a fair trial. more on the merits of his request in a minute. first, developments in another case. one that actually predates the case brought by fani willis and the ones brought by jack smith and alvin bragg. we're talking going the $250 million civil fraud lawsuit brought by new york attorney general letisha james. a fight that is expected to xlens in october. you will recall, there is the one into the disgraced expresident, his adult sons and their business for the shady dishonest attempts to have favorable loan agreements. in a 100-page document newly filed in the state supreme court, prosecutors in the case are asking for one particular favorable ruling ahead of time.

specifically, they want the court to acknowledge that donald trump and some of his organizations' employees used financial statements as a vehicle to fraudulently inflate his net worth from the year 2011 to 2021. in a newly released interview transcript, should he be called upon to go under oath. remember, few things mean more to trump than the size of things, of his assets and all sorts of other things, so it might sting to discover that ag james alleges that donald trump over ten years, including during his time in office, routinely overstated his personal net worth to financial institutions by as much as $2.2 billion. who among us is surprised? it is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends.

pulitzer-prize-winning david k. johnson is here. the author of the book, "the big cheat." how donald trump -- also, the lead investigator for the january 6th select committee, tim is back with us. also joining us, former federal prosecutor glen is here and our good friend donnie deutsche joins us. i want to start with you and the televised nature of the proceedings in georgia. you're committee was impactful, made history for many, many reasons. one of them was the televised nature of the presentation of the evidence developed. your thoughts about this court order to televise these hearings and these proceedings? >> yeah, nicole, i think it is a really big deal. even though it will be the same facts that america has heard repeatedly from the select committee, from very aggressive

reporting by a lot of really good journalists, there's a chance that the same facts will resonate more when they are presented in a different forum. right? i think there are people out there in this country, they don't trust congress because it's politicized. they don't trust the media. they might trust a criminal proceeding where that same evidence is tested by vigorous advocacy on behalf of the former president and his co-conspirators. so if america can see the same evidence play out in that forum, i think maybe naively, legitimately, it has a chance to resonate and connect and change minds in a way that maybe some of the other presentations of that evidence did not succeed. >> and tim, i agree with you. and i think donald trump in his sort of primal reptilian survival compass knows and agrees with this assessment as well. it makes it impossible to really

spoon-feed the lie that there is some deep-state liberal conspiracy when all of the story tellers, all the narrators didn't just vote for trump. they worked for trump and they were willing to do just about anything. not just to help him win but to help him cheat. i mean, what do you -- what do you make of what the district attorney has assembled there and the story she'll tell? >> you're 100% correct. when this evidence plays out on television in a courtroom, in atlanta, it will be bill barr and pat cipollone and mike pence. people that worked very hard for the president that wanted him to win. it will be very hard for him to creditably make the narrative that this is all a witch hunt. this is all manufactured. that this is all politically motivated, when the people speaking, the people providing the evidence on which that case is based are all close allies of

his. i think it underscores his strategy here which is, barb mcquaid has said repeatedly on your show and others, it is a political strategy. not a legal one. >> right. >> his defense here is one of public relations and an attempt to stall until he potentially is reelected as president. it is not a legal defense. it will be very difficult for him to mount a credible legal defense. >> one more question and then i want to bring the others in. even the strategy of severing his case from the others, the evidence is the same. they're charged as a criminal conspiracy. a criminal enterprise. they're all charged with by and large the same stuff. the evidence she developed to charge trump is the same evidence, the same republican witnesses that would be put on the stand to testify against those who are exercising their right to a speedy trial. so even in the court of public opinion, which i think we all

agree is where trump, the only arena in which he is at this point playing, that will not be helpful for him to see his co-conspirators on trial on tv. >> exactly right. some defendants can argue that some of the evidence presented more broadly in that indictment doesn't apply to them and it shouldn't be presented at their trial. donald trump can't say that. right? he's the leader of this conspiracy. and every single other act in that indictment is going to be ascribed to him. his knowledge of it, his affirmative support of it. with very few exceptions. so a trial against kenneth cheseboro, against sidney powell, will involve the testimony of the former president's awareness of and leadership of it. the more this story is told, the more this evidence plays out, it

has to be unfavorable to him. both legally and politically. >> so donnie, you know this sort of, i described it as a reptilian survival instinct. if you have a different description, i'm sure it is better and more on the mark. but donald trump never learned any elements of how to be a public servant. he brought with him to the presidency everything he learned from being a reality tv figure. and he does understand that bad information, evidence that makes him look bad, not just his face, i think we agree they're locked in. but the kinds of people who would need to vote for him if he wants to be president again and pardon himself for all of these alleged crime. this is terrible for him. what do you make of how this is shaping up? a televised speedy trial for defendants charged with the very same crimes trump is? >> it is ironic you mention the word reality. this is a guy that i don't want

to say came to power, but his final push to power was a reality show, "the apprentice." now his demise will be a reality show as well. not folks from the dnc coming up there. not democrats coming up there. his hand-picked people doing his dirty work. we are still a culture that is a visual culture, a video culture, people don't read as much as we would like to think in this country. and there is something when there is flesh and blood and we hear the words and see the faces that hits in the gut in a way that a transcript does not. there's a tremendous irony. a guy who came in on reality tv will be going out on reality tv. >> do you agree, harry said this yesterday and i really felt the truth of it after i got off the air, for eight years, nonlawyers have struggled to understand all the ins and outs of the legal process and what he said on our air yesterday, now lawyers are

having to sort have google and look at the political calendar to understand where these different milestones in a criminal proceeding will fall in a political calendar. it is really for trump the intersection of two things that other than his locked-in base which is not enough to elect him president of the united states of america, none of the other elements, not the televised piece with his co-conspirators, not any of the milestones, not the fact that he has two republican challengers making a point, making a case about his alleged criminality. none of those things aid him with what he needs to do politically at this moment. >> well, to that point, the word control. and one thing donald trump has been addicted to, and has always had is control. and as we see the calendar unfold, as we see the indictments unfold. the cross section of the politics and the legal framing. you realize, picture him now,

how out of control he must feel. how under siege he must feel. we live it every day. there is a guy who is going through this and living this, and as each one of these dominos continues to fall, whether it is the news of televising the first of the trials. you realize how out of control this gentleman is for the first time in his life. he has no control and for a guy who has been in complete control, it has been to be incredibly frustrating. >> we don't get a lot of windows into what that must be like. i think you're right. to the degree that it fuels that, that is an interesting insight. let me bring you in on the the legal developments. trump's waiving of his right to an arraignment, if i said that right, as well as list move to sever his case and the judge's order that the case be

televised. >> yeah. i am glad the georgia case will be televised. i have to say, i really hope there is a groundswell for the federal cases to be televised, especially the january 6th case in d.c. i think there is a pretty robust legal argument that they should be televised and that is because count four in the indictment, conspiracy to deprive the voters of our voting rights, courts have said, when that kind of a charge is brought, the american voters are the victims. the crime victims rights act is a federal law. it provides rights to crime victims including the right not to be excluded from the courtroom. i think the the american people, the voters, the victims have a right not to be excluded from the trial, and the only way to implement that legal right is to

have cameras in the courtroom. that might be the legal argument. it maybe a slightly more atmospheric argument. if cameras are not allowed in the federal courtroom, you're going to have donald trump's team of lawyers step to the cameras at the end of every trial day and misrepresent what went on in there. they're going to say, ladies and gentlemen, you won't believe it. tell prosecution's evidence fell apart. they're being exposed every day as, you know, running a witch hunt or political interference. and jack smith's team of federal prosecutors will say exactly nothing to the cameras at the end of every day. that's not a fair fight in the court of public opinion. >> what does the coalition look like? what should they be doing and how could you, what would you hand cam their odds of success

at from getting cameras? >> cameras in the federal courtroom, i think we start with a good old-fashioned writing our elected officials and put the pressure on. i don't expect we're going to get congress to act and pass a law saying cameras ought to be in the courtroom, but the u.s. judicial conference headed up by chief justice john roberts. congress, your elected officials can bring some pressure to bear, and i think that is the one vehicle that is available. i also think we may see civil suits being filed by some of the pro democracy nonprofit organizations pushing this crime victims rights act angle. it is number three in the ten of the victims' bill of rights for anybody scoring at home. 18 united states code 3771 subsection 3. we, the voters, have the right not to be excluded from the

courtroom. that means cameras in the courtroom. >> i can see your phone lighting up from here in making that argument, that push. david k. johnson is here. the preeminent expert on the breadth and depth of donald trump, fraudster, to put it that way. let me bring everybody back to what michael cohen, a one-time lieutenant of donald trump's had to say about this practice of inflating and deflating trump's assets. >> there were times that i was asked again with allen weisselberg, the cfo, to go back in to speak with an individual from forbes because mr. trump wanted each year to have his net worth rise on the forbes wealthiest individuals list.

and so what you do is you look at the assets and you try to find an asset that has, say, for example, 40 wall street. find an asset that is comparable. find the highest price per square foot achieved in the area, and apply it to that building. >> so we know that trump does this. it is on the record that trump did this. now attorney general letisha james would like to have summary judgment and basically have this asserted as settled fact to move on and proceed with other elements of her case. do you think that would be successful? >> well, probably not because trump is also seeking summary judgment. and you get summary judgment when there's no issue in dispute. and donald trump is never going to acknowledge that his net worth is what the attorney general says. there is an interesting historical aspect to this.

letisha james says his net worth was in the $700, $750 million. he said it was worth $8 billion. in his candidacy he said he was worth $10 billion. when he filed with the federal elections commission, it came down to less than $9 billion. when he became president, his lawyers asked if he could file his ethics disclosure of his finances without signing the document, which you sign under penalty of perjury. he was told, no, you have to sign the document. well, my addition at the time was that it dropped to about $1.4 billion. roughly a 90% disappearance of wealth. and donald has always just played this stuff up. everyone day told me he was worth $3 billion. i said donald, i don't believe you. what do you mean you don't believe me? i am a newspaper reporter.

i have eight children. i may have only had seven at the time. i pay my bills on time. if you were $8 billion, i wouldn't be doing a story about all the people you have stiffed by not paying them. later he told a tv reporter that he was worth $5 billion. he just makes it up. >> and i think it's been the subject of litigation, right? when he falls on or off the most wealthy list, doesn't he get litigious and then blinks before he can show any of the records or books behind any of his false assertions? >> yes. he becomes just blind furious about it. he did show my former "new york times" colleague, tim o'bryan, various financial documents. tim concluded donald at the time was worth $140 to $160 million. i told him, don't put a specific number on it. he'll sue you. he did. thankfully, tim didn't listen to

my advice. because in that litigation, we got all these disclosures by donald. for example, he claims to be the greatest expert of all time on taxes. and i'm a widely recognized expert on taxes. donald trump testified he didn't know anything about accounting. the lawyers very carefully tied down, he didn't know anything about accounting. you cannot understand taxes if you don't learn accounting. >> amazing. it's amazing. these small developments that require thing like signatures and other people to put signatures on things can be amazing political explosions, or detonations for him because of the lie upon lie upon lie upon lie upon lie. i need all of you to stick around a little longer. when we come back, we'll take a closer look at the risk trump and his legal team face if they decide to put him on the stand for all the reasons we've been discussing. a clearer picture of how he looks in depositions in this

case that we're talking about right now. plus, the governor of georgia, a republican, shutting down his fellow republicans who are right now today pushing for the removal of a district attorney doing her job. later, we wait for a decision on where mark meadows will stand trial for his role in trying to subvert the election. his actions should serve as a big red flag for what would happen if trump were to ever, ever find his way back to the white house. all those stories and more after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. where t. (fan #1) there ya go! that's what i'm talkin' about! (josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. switch now and they'll give you nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv, on them. (hero fan) this plan is amazing! (josh allen) another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. (fan #1) that was josh allen. (fan #2) mmhm.

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we're back with david kay, glen, and donnie. trump says this in the deposition. i was very busy. i was, i considered this the most important job the in the world, saving millions of lives. if you're wondering where he did that, i'll fill you in. he says this. i think you would have nuclear holocaust if i didn't deal with north korea. i think you would have nuclear war if i wasn't elected and i think you might have a nuclear war now, if you want to know the truth. let's put north korea aside for a moment. he's throwing his sons under the bus. talk about the family dynamic and the risk to the trump kids. >> well, remember that donald put this in an eyes-wide-open

trust. he asserted he could run his company and be president and there would be no conflicts of interest which is absurd. what he's doing is what he always does. he's trying to shift responsibility on to other people, and donald won't have any problem shifting responsibility on to his sons who he has told others he thinks are idiots. he doesn't say that in public, but he's told people he doesn't have much regard for the judgment of his two older sons. talking about the adult sons here. >> donnie, there's so much to say. i don't have the kind of expertise to analyze it from a psychological perspective. i mean, the inverse is also true. he says highly inappropriate sexualized things about the physical attractiveness of his adult daughter, ivanka. let's stick with the boys. what do you make of their very real exposure because of the things trump says about their

role and to what david cay is saying, their incompetence? >> just a little peak into donald trump's humanity. any of us who are parents, at the end of the day, you would throw yourself in front of a bus for your kids and donald is the opposite. anyone who knows donald would say the same thing. he would throw his kids under the bus. does ivanka live in a different space? she lives in an entirely weird different space but this is a guy who would not put his children in front of him. we'll talk about this and glen and the other lawyers can speak to it. you've seen in these ramblings, in this early deposition why he cannot go on the stand. if you've ever been deposed, the lawyers say to you, one-word answers. the tendency is you want to explain, you want to justify, you want to take control of it. this is a guy if he ever does go on the stand potentially could have a jack nicholson, you want the truth, you can't handle the truth, you want me on that wall,

whatever is incredibly self-incriminating, he will say it's in the deposition. this is a guy you can never, ever put on the stand. i'm not a lawyer but i've been deposed. p-i know. >> this comes clear in the way you and your investigation encircled trump. i mean, there was some acknowledgement, and i think you've said this in past conversations. you didn't get it from the horse's mouth, you talked to everybody around him. and i think even those people, even that inner most circle would agree with what donnie just said. >> yeah. absolutely. we have a lot of accounts of conversations with the president that were overheard, or conversations with him directly that sound very similar to the transcript that came out in the new york attorney general case. we really hoped that he would come in, right? the select committee issued a subpoena to the former president.

and there was some thought that his hubris will lure him out, right? he'll want to do a nationally televised hearing about january 6th. so we were ready. i had a lengthy outline ready to go. very excited about the prospect of a lengthy interview of the former president, hoping that that hubris, while unwise from a legal perspective, he would think was advantageous politically or publicly. we didn't get that choice. you see what happens when you read that transcript when he is sitting in a chair, being questioned by thoughtful lawyers. it doesn't go well. i tried a lot of criminal cases. glen can attest to this as well. it almost never helps a defendant when he or she testifies. particularly an undisciplined defendant like this. it almost always goes better for the prosecutor. i think that's what would happen here if he close to take the stand. >> now i'm curious. what was your first question for

trump if he agreed? i agree with you. he was dying to talk to mueller and his lawyers basically threw themselves in front of him. >> yeah. i would want to start with january 6th. i wanted to start with the riot. what were you doing and thinking over the course of the afternoon? we would go back the talk about the election. we would go back to talk about all the other parts of the multipart plan to interrupt the joint session. i wanted to go immediately to that afternoon and hear his own description of what he was doing, what he was thinking, what he was feeling at the time. >> you just think about that, glen kirchner. you take what he said on the stump, where he's talked about pardoning the january 6th insurrectionists. where he stands as someone as donnie has talked about, so acutely aware of the imagery behind him. the deadly insurrection. the crimes committed and the

videos behind him are ones that have sent some individuals to jail for decades. what do you do with someone in the political arena who is unfit to defend himself? he's so unfit, he can't take the stand in his own criminal defense. and he's the front runner in one of the two political parties? >> and he's waging his battles in the court of public opinion but none of that will play in a court of law. people should know when he says all of this outrageous stuff, this false stuff, in campaign rallies or in interviews, or he posts it on his social media platform, all of these statements like i declassify documents with my mind, for example, none of those are admissible in court. anything a defendant says out of court can only be admitted by prosecutors as statements of a party opponent if they, if the

prosecutors decide they incriminate him. if they decide there's evidentiary value to it. but all of donald trump's exculpatory nonsense will never see the inside of the courtroom unless he testifies. when we read those excerpts from his testimony in the tish james case, it shows why he can't testify. throws eric his son under the bus. he says eric was the final decision maker, you know, on business matters. he says he prevented a nuclear holocaust. he saved millions of lives. he said that his friends say that he is, quote, the most honest person in the world. i didn't read all of it. i don't know if he claimed to be more powerful than a locomotive and able to leap tall building in addition single bound, but it highlights why he can't go into a courtroom, be placed under oath, and begin testifying. part of a trial involves a popularity contest. and the witness has to be

likable if the witness is going to be credible. donald trump is neither likable or credible. >> there's a cartoon circulating that says my client wants to be reinstated as president by reason of insanity. it's not too far off from how he plans to present himself in a legal, criminal, and civil context. you are all treasures to our herculean efforts to try to understand this historic moment. thank you for starting us off. tim is sticking around a little longer. we have more questions for him. when we come back, the republican governor of georgia with a warning to the expresident and his loyalist who's are seeking to muzzle and punish prosecutor fani willis. that story just ahead. that story just ahead. ♪

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her position in a political manner, and specifically citing senate bill 92. a new law that empowers a state panel to investigate and oust wayward prosecutors as a powerful tool in the tool box that trump's allies can deploy to delve into fani willis's use of public resources. not exactly mincing words, are they? they're saying the quiet word out loud once again. in this case, they intend to give fani willis a hard time. to investigate her. today there was an unexpected plot twist. a highly unlikely new voice telling georgia republican to back off and think twice before going after fanly the willis. it was georgia's governor, republican brian kemp. >> there have been call by one individual in the general assembly and echoed outside of these walls by the former president for a special session that would ignore current

georgia law and directly interfere with the proceedings of a separate but equal branch of government. up to this point, i have not seen any evidence that d.a. willis's actions, or lack there of. regardless in my mind, a special session of the general assembly to endrun around this law is not feasible and may ultimately prove to be unconstitutional. the bottom line is that in the state of georgia, as long as i'm governor, we're going to follow the law and the constitution. regardless of who it helps or harms politically. in georgia, we will not be engauging in political fear that only inflames the motion of the moment. >> georgia governor republican brian kemp telling other georgia republicans, members of his own party, to stand down when it

comes to fani willis. joining our conversation, atlanta journal constitutional political reporter greg is here. tim is still with us. greg, brian kemp is an interesting figure. a pro-trump politician, republican governor of georgia, leading into and ahead of the 2020 election. someone who has not dabbled in any of the coup and has not dabbled in efforts to overturn the will of the georgia vote. and here is not willing to dabble in the removal of fani willis. >> i've been covering governor kemp since 2002 when he was a state senate candidate in athens and i was a junior at the university of georgia. i've never seen a moment quite like this one. it happened at a press conference to update georgians about hurricane idalia and

turned into a message about donald trump and the efforts to interfere with the georgia legislature once again. republicans and democrats see a replay of what happened in 2020 when these noxious conspiracy theories took hold and really made it violent rhetoric in georgia that leveled threats. ended one threats against sitting politicians and lawmakers. we're seeing a replay of that. i've talk to no fewer than five republicans who said they have ben threatened because of this fantasy promoted by a state senator who says there can be a special session to overturn, to oust fani willis, district attorney. and we've heard from governor kemp saying no, this isn't going to happen. >> i have to ask you, why design the law that lets him do this? >> that's a good question. the law was always intended, at least from sponsors, to go after prosecutors who they feel are not doing their duties. they would bring up a

progressive prosecutor in athens who is not going after drug crimes and other low-level offense that's some republicans feel should be a higher priority. they've also invoked a republican district attorney for west georgia who is accused of some pretty bad things, bribery and stuff like that, who is still in office. now, that didn't mean that fani willis could not be invoked in this. they just weren't bringing up fani willis throughout the debate. we knew in georgia that could be deployed against her. this is the first time governor kemp is saying i don't see any evidence that it should be used against her. >> is it a verbal warning, greg? or does he have the power to shut it down if they proceed anyway? >> yeah, it's a verbal warning. the decisions will be up to panelists that he and other republican leaders appoint. he is one step removed from it. he doesn't have the power to it should it down but this panel could dismiss these complaints.

these complaints could go absolutely nowhere which is somewhat likely. and there is a lawsuit already filed seeking to derail this commission from even starting. so there is a chance it never even takes complaints in the first place. really, what he's warning, too, what he went on to say, if democrats take power, they could use the same thing against republican d.a.s who just watch your step. this could be reversed on republicans if we don't, if we're not cautious about what we do. >> tim, this triggers every cranky exrepublican bone in my body. the train has left the station. this is what happens when you assail the rule of law. this is what happens when jim jordan creates a bs committee that mettles in hunter biden's plea negotiations, as glen thrush talked about his reporting suggested and confirmed. you have ron desantis on a debate stage holding tim interference in the role of

prosecutors in his state. this is a good thing that brian kemp said and did today. it is really important and it is really good. in some ways, republicans have already passed out the swords and they're already attacking the rule of law. i wonder where you put this development. >> yeah. i'm a former prosecutor, as you know, and tried very hard at all times to do my job without being influenced by anything but the facts and the law. i think the vast majority of men and women who are drawn tom work do that. i think it is really interesting in georgia, because that's where the consequences of this kind of rhetoric can be felt so acutely. because of what happened with ruby freeman. we saw what happens when public servants, election workers, in that case, are denigrated, or are falsely accused of being motivated by something improper.

the very same thing is now happening with fani willis. not coincidentally, another black woman being accused of some sort of political motivation, not being true to her oath. that has real consequences. and we know that in georgia, negligent in georgia more acutely than anywhere because of what we saw, the awful things we saw with respect to ruby freeman and shea moss. so i think governor kemp has done the right thing. he is holding up the rule of law and applying legitimately the standards of law over political gain. i wish more people would do that. because again, these kinds of attacks have very real consequences. >> i guess the only thing i would add is they, too, have felt the threats. brad raffensperger provided some of the most harrowing testimony to your committee that he and his wife were both targeted with vicious threats.

>> exactly. this is not rhetoric. when politicians say that the fbi orphani willis or jack smith are weaponized, that is taking literally. and people out there who hear that take action. january 6th, we need a more dramatic manifestation of people taking, you have to fight like hell literally, than what happened at the capitol. our elected officials have to exercise discretion and responsibility and care in their words, and it does not always happen. and as a result we have real consequences. threats, and god forbid, worse, people acting on those allegations. >> a scary moment. and we are glad to see this move and these words today. thank you for being here. thank you for your coverage of it. we thank you for starting us off and for all of your wisdom. up next for us this afternoon, two members of the extremist proud boys group who will help

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they ripped the first barricade down and they approached our bike racks. i felt the bike rack come on top of my head and i was pushed backwards. at that point blacked out. but my back of my head clipped the concrete stairs behind me. >> that was capitol police officer caroline edwards testifying before the january 6th select committee about the role joe biggs played as a member of the proud boys in the violent attack that took place at the u.s. capitol on january 6th. well, today biggs and fellow member of the proud boys zachary rehl were sentenced to prison for their role in the insurrection after being convicted of charges, including seditious conspiracy. biggs, a proud boys event organizer from the state of florida, received 17 years in prison, the second longest sentence handed down to date.

prosecutors had asked for 33 years, which would have been a record sentence for a january 6th defendant. rehl received 15 years in prison. prosecutors had requested 30 years for him. three more members of the proud boys are scheduled to be sentenced tomorrow and tuesday, including enrique tarrio. prosecutors are seeking decades of prison time for them as well. biggs has stated that he will appeal his conviction. let's bring in ryan reilly, who is outside the courthouse for us. i don't want to skip ahead to the big fish who are yet to be sentenced. let's deal with what happened today. take me inside the courtroom, and especially shed some light on the victim statements. they were pretty powerful. >> yeah, so we actually have an omnibus hearing with all of these three various capital police officers earlier this week.

and today we had individualized sentences for joe biggs and zach rehl. they went for 33 years. the judge went longer, the second longest january 6th sentence we've seen to date. and zach rehl with 15 years. what's notable about the zach rehl case. the judge determined between 30 years and life which make yourself head pop up when you hear a judge say something like that, but ultimately went with 15 years, which is fully half of what the sentencing, the bottom half of the sentencing guidelines would have been. and judge kelly sort of explained here that he wasn't convinced that there is enough evidence that zachary rehl actually intended to kill people on january 6th. that wasn't his intention and the intent behind this. the zach rehl case is one of the fascinating ones. the online sleuth sedition hunters played a really big role. because of all the evidence online, when zachary rehl was on

the stand, testifying, saying he never assaulted a police officer that day, there was a long weekend, and the sleuths got to work, and they found evidence that the fbi missed that show zachary rehl pepper spraying an officer using some sort of chemical spray against officers. it was something that wasn't seen in the presentation, wasn't an independent charge brought forward by prosecutors, but was something that the judge determined he did do and lied about it on the stand. we saw zachary rehl in may completely fall apart on the stand and say he didn't recall assaulting an officer. but then you fast forward to a sort of find out stage of the proud boys sentencing hearing, and then you have a very tearful zach rehl saying he is very sorry. it's a unique circumstance. the son of philadelphia police officers, the grandson of a philadelphia police officer and the son of a philadelphia police officer who assaulted officers on behalf of donald trump that day and went into the capitol and use violent rhetoric and

bragged about all of his actions on january 6th. that is something the judge said he took very seriously, saying essentially 15 years was cause enough of a deterrent effect. zachary rehl's statements about wanting to be there for his young daughters. one is around 18 and one is somewhere in the toddler range was something that i think really got across to him. but you see the real-life impact of some of this violent rhetoric that we've seen. >> such an amazing detail about the role of sedition hunters in proving him a liar, a liar in the courtroom and on the stand. i do want to ask you about what you personally having watched all of this and having covered all of this for us expect and are looking for in enrique tarrio's sentencing. >> yeah, you know, it's really interesting, because the deterrent effect is such a key thing that people talk about. and often there is such an outside deterrent effect when you talk about the

record-setting sentences. the benchmark of 17 years for joe biggs could be where we could look for a range, around there. but it's a jump ball to me. you have to remember that enrique tarrio was not actually physically at the u.s. capitol on january 6th. he was in baltimore. he was at a hotel. and while he was engaged in a lot of the violent rhetoric, if you want to talk about on the ground activity, joe biggs was a lot more involved than enrique tarrio was. that's really only because enrique tarrio was arrested. that was one of the actions that the fbi and the federal law enforcement officers actually did take ahead of the attack. he was facing those local charges in court here in d.c. in connection with a prior event that took place in december of 2020. and he was arrested, and he also had weapons on him at that point that was a charge that was brought forward that sort of took him off the battlefield so to speak on january 6th. there is a lot of what ifs if he was there at that point. and what he tried to claim of

course he hoped he could have controlled it is what he was telling some of the people he was speaking with in law enforcement. he would have stopped at all this from happening and taking place. subsequently, of course, an mpd officer, metropolitan police officer has been charged because he had tipped off enrique tarrio about that arrest just before january 6th. so a lot of really complicated factors here. i don't know how all that is going the play out in court on tuesday, but we still do have two sentences coming coming tomorrow before we get to the enrique tarrio sentence on tuesday, nicolle. >> we will call on you for those tomorrow. such a profound piece of analysis, right? he wasn't on the battlefield. that's exactly what it was that day. ryan reilly, thank you so much for your reporting on this. when we come back, what trump's first term tells us about the threat he represents should he ever serve a second. much more straight ahead. raightd ya got a little somethin' on yuh face. needed a quick shave. quick shave? respect the process!

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the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. right. joe biden would rather just stop those corporations from charging so damn much. capping the cost of drugs like insulin. cracking down on surprise medical bills and all those crazy junk fees. there's more work to do. tell the president to keep lowering costs for middle class families. going to get close and talk to the president. he said no, he wants to be alone right now. and i remember passing to him something to the effect of the rioters have gotten to the capitol mark. we need to go down and see the president now. and mark looked up and said he doesn't want to do anything, pat. i remember pat saying something to the effect of mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be f'ing

hung. and mark had responded something to the effect of, you heard him, pat. he thinks mike deserves it. he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. >> hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in the east. in his fourth and final white house chief of staff, mark meadows, donald trump got exactly what he'd always wanted, a man who said yes first and asked questions later, a man who empowered his worst impulses. a veritable mini me. whether it was investigating outlandish voter fraud conspiracy theories or going down to cobb county, georgia himself to check out the vote count as white house chief of staff. or as you just heard cassidy hutchinson describe defend doing nothing on january 6th to get trump to stop the rioters. mark meadows was trump's dream chief of staff, especially during those crucial final days in office. in a role often described as gatekeeper, it seems as though mark meadows served as much more

of an enabler. the now twice impeached, four times indicted ex-president of these united states. in brand-new opinion piece in "the new york times," it was concluded, quote, it was mr. meadows' critical failure to tell the president what he didn't want to hear that helped lead to the country's greatest political scandal and his own precipitous fall. the piece was written chris whipler, a book all about white house chiefs of staff. a flashing red light for what a second trump term could look like. whipple rights there. quote, mr. trump has already signaled that in a second term, his department and cabinet officers would be expected to blindly obey orders. his director of national intelligence would tell him only what he wants to hear. and his attorney general would prosecute mr. trump's political foes. for mr. meadows, his place in history is secure as a primary

enabler of a president who tried to overthrow democracy. but his example should serve as a warning of what will happen should mr. trump regain the white house. all guardrails will be gone. and seeming to prove that theory correct, here is donald trump confirming it in his own words, speaking with conservative radio host glenn beck just last night. >> you said in 2016, you know, lock her up. and then when you became president, you said we don't do that in america. that's just not the right thing to do. that's what they're doing. do you regret not locking her up, and if you're president again, will you lock people up? >> well, i'll give you an example. the answer is you have no choice because they're doing it to us. >> of course none of that is true, right? we don't need to tell you that. it's where we start the hour, with some of our experts and friends. writer of that important, important "new york times" op-ed, chris whipple will be our guest in a couple of minutes. joining us first, former department of chief homeland

security and attorney general mary mccord is with us. mary, let's just deal with the absolute horse you know what that is being put out to that segment of the population. again, trump's base is not sizable enough to win reelection, but it does intersect with a current domestic violence extreme threat. and that is what we covered on this program with both of your expertise. trump just said through glenn beck to them, and glenn beck asked with almost a straight face, do you regret not locking up hillary clinton. for what? it's a ludicrous conversation to engage donald trump. in and his answer was all the more chilling. what do we do with that as a country, mary mccord? >> i think, you know, this has got to be one of the big huge red flags that people out in america who are going to be voting have to be looking at, which is that, you know, the first time that mr. trump was

president, i think there were a lot of people who maybe didn't support him, republicans, conservatives, but said i will go into the administration, and i will serve this administration because i believe in our institutions, i believe in the integrity of our governmental functions, and i want to be part of keeping things on the rails. well, by the time, of course, mr. trump went through cabinet secretary after cabinet secretary, attorney general, after attorney general, chief of staff after chief of staff, what you now know is if there is another trump administration, you're not going get those people who believe in, you know, upholding the values of our governmental institutions, upholding the independence of the department of justice, upholding, you know, the missions of all of our other departments, homeland security and others. instead, you're going get sycophants, and you're going get people who are willing to do the president's bidding, or at least that's what he is going the try for. and i think this notion, it becomes so clear when we think

about the department of justice, actually using, trying to use the department of justice to go after political enemies? that's what authoritarian regimes do, to use your department of justice and your administration to align with extremists, including potentially paramilitary actors, that's what authoritarians do. and there is abundant examples throughout history of that, including today in other countries. and so i think we really have to heed these warning signals. and i think, you know, mr. whipple has it correct when he is putting out all the signs, everything we've seen. i also think that that's a reason that cases like the fulton county case that fani willis brought is so important, because that one is not only trying to hold mr. trump accountable, but a number of people who assisted him and facilitated them. and these are some of the people. like can you imagine mr. giuliani as attorney general? or even mr. clark as the attorney general, given what they've done in the past?

and if they're held accountable, at least hopefully that will lessen the possibility that those people would take those types of offices. but this is -- you know, this is a red flag that people need to be thinking about. is that what they want to see from their government? >> well, not just a red flag. i mean, miles teller, everything mary just said should replace anyone tempted to sort of flood the zone with insipid horse race coverage of the next election. it's about behind curtain number 1 what mary just described. an authoritarian regime with the likes of jeffrey clark and rudy giuliani as the sitting attorney general doing what donald trump just said he would do. he just said he regretted not lock up hillary clinton. he said in 2017 in an interview with "the new york times" that he wanted a roy cohn. he wanted someone to protect him. i guess famously now made jeff sessions and i think subsequently rod rosenstein cry

because the justice department constantly fell below his expectation of being his personal police force. you were one of those people that mary is talking about, one of the people that went in ostensibly to hold up the guardrails of our democracy, and you were shocked by what you saw. what do we do now to make sure people know that a second term would make the first one look churchillian? >> well, i have to pick up, nicolle on what you said about jeff sessions. i remember long after jeff sessions had been fired from the administration, trump still sitting in the oval office and telling us in his words, quote, jeff sessions is the dumbest person god ever made. why did he still hate jeff sessions long after he fired the man? because he felt like his attorney general and these other people who said no were keeping him from doing the things he wanted to do, the illegal things he wanted to do, like lock up political rivals. and you're right. i am one of those people that mary described that thought they were guardrails going in, and

ended up discovering that we were hopefully, catastrophically naive in thinking you could keep someone like in check. because what donald trump did is he systematically identified those people with a conscience, the people who told him he couldn't do illegal and amoral and unconstitutional things and he got rid of them. over the past two years, as i interviewed people for blowback to ask them that one question, what will happen in a second term, there were very consistent themes. on the people's side, it's as mary said, again and again, ex-trump officials said in a second term, it will be the hard-core loyalists. it will be the sycophants that make sure the oval office is not a place of somber contemplation and debate. the oval office will become an echo chamber. on the side of policies, it will be the rejected policies from the first term. it will be the zombie policies that were deemed to be illegal that get brought back to life. and those sycophants will be the type of people who won't say no, but who will implement those

policies. in the words of one person who sat a stone's throw from the oval office, it will be the yes men that come back into that administration. the third category, the other big theme i heard from people was the principles of a second trump administration. and you mentioned guardrails, nicolle. and we expect government to serve as a guardrail of our democracy. but time and time again, people intimated to me that the government wouldn't be a guardrail in a second trump administration. the government would be a gun. the government would be turned into a weapon pointed at political rivals and used as retribution. and each one of those things, as i was writing that felt, again, like it was extreme to say, but trump has validated each of those points in his own words in recent weeks. >> let me bring into our consideration writer of that really important must-read "new york times" op-ed, chris whipple.

he is a documentary filmmaker, author of the book "the white house gatekeepers." chris, it's great to you here today to be a part of this conversation. >> good to be with you. >> first take us through the piece, and we'll jump off from there. >> well, you know, nicolle, we all know that trying to serve as donald trump's white house chief of staff in fairness to meadows, was impossible. as jack watson, jimmy carter's former chief of staff put it to me, it wasn't just mission impossible, it was mission self-destruction. everybody who comes within the orbit of this death star known as donald trump gets destroyed by it ultimately. and a real mystery is why somebody like mark meadows, having seen what happened to his predecessors, would step into that role. but, you know, there used to be, forgive me, there used to be a kind of healthy competition for the title of worst white house

chief of staff. mark meadows now owns it lock, stock and barrel. h.r. haldeman, when you think about it, was convicted for covering up a -- the attempted bugging of the political opposition. mark meadows is credibly charged with orchestrating a mafia-style shakedown of a state official for 11,780 votes. and oh, by the way, enabling the overthrow of a democracy. so i think, you know, he owns that title lock, stock and barrel. >> you know, chris, there is something interesting in your piece, travels, it sort of takes us back and it takes us forward. and it's that look forward of what a second term would be like that sort of animates the warnings mary and miles are both offering. i mean, what's interesting about what trump does successfully is that he starts with reince priebus who was a yes man's yes

man, but has this washingtonian impulse to constantly talk to the press, right? and so he doesn't last. he gets fired by tweet. i think john kelly replaces him, and then has a general's heart describes trump as the most damaged person he's ever encountered in an interview with mike schmidt of "the new york times." mark meadows comes after mick mulvaney, which is almost a break, even for trump, from people who are willing to take a leap on this damaged person, to people who were willing to go in and do the damaged person's bidding and democracy. what, with your sort of vantage point would you predict? and if you have any theorys on who it could be in a second trump presidency? >> well, let me just say when we take a step back and look at this in the context of other white house chiefs of staff throughout history, what makes this all the more appalling to me is we all know white house chiefs of staff who have done

the job honorably, who have tried their best to fulfill the most important responsibility, which is to tell the president hard truths, to walk into the oval office and close the door and tell him what he doesn't want to hear. we all know these people. the mack mcclartys and andy cards and josh boltons and jack watsons of this world who really understood that above all, the constitution was the most important thing and not the office. meadows really represents the end of that, i'm afraid. and he is clearly the template here. this is the guy, the sycophant that donald trump was looking for throughout his whole first term. he had three chiefs who tried and failed to tell him hard truths, and trump finally found the guy who wouldn't.

dwight eisenhower's famously gruff chief of staff was called the indomitable no man. mark meadows was the indomitable yes man. it was very odd the way he was not just a yes man to trump, but almost everyone. he is the template for a possible second trump white house. and i think that historically, the white house chief has been the thin line between the president and disaster. >> yeah. >> in a second term, that line will be erased. >> yeah, i mean, mary, let me bring you back in on this. i think that meadows also has the distinction of being the only white house chief of staff we know of who enables a violent threat against a vice president. i mean, a white house chief of staff also has this unique role of being a fulcrum before a president and a vice president, relationships over history that can be cozy, can be chummy, can

be awkward, can be tense. meadows has the distinction of telling the rest of the white house senior staffers he doesn't want to do anything. he like what's the insurrectionests were doing. what they were doing at this moment is chanting "hang mike pence." that's what mark meadows turned the office of a white house chief of staff into. >> yeah, it's pretty shocking. i think we all remember listening to cassidy hutchinson during the hearings last summer and seeing that videotape of her deposition. and your first reaction is oh, my gosh, i can't believe trump said that about his own vice president. but your second reaction is oh, my gosh, mark meadows isn't doing anything about it at all. and it got worse, worse throughout the day. we had -- and i've written about this that arguably, mr. trump solicited a crime of violence against his own vice president. i mean, when he knew that the capitol had been attacked, when he knew that secret service was rushing vice president pence to

safety, he threw flames -- he threw gas on the fire by saying -- i keep wanting to say mark meadows, but saying vice president pence did not have the courage to do what needed to be done. for a violent crowd, that's just red meat. that's like go do something about it, because he didn't do what i wanted him to do. and mark meadows knew all of this was going on. he was there. he was getting updates throughout the day. and that's the time that you have to show real courage when you are the chief of staff and you see things happening that he knew was happening. he didn't do that at all. and i just don't think, you know, he is really sort of skated so far. the contempt referral that congress made, the prosecution to decide not to pursue in terms of criminally, jack smith's indictment does not include mr. meadows as an unindicted co-conspirator. and now the fani willis indictment, it is an effort to hold him accountable. and i think it's about time that he be held accountable. >> miles teller, if not quit

over a sense of failing to do your duty and uphold the office of the american presidency, why didn't more of you guys quit out of disgust? trump was so clearly disgusting in public in terms of debasing the office of the presidency, and every anecdote i've ever heard in private he was a thousand times worse. why didn't more people quit in disgust? . >> well, i think a lot of them it was fear. and in a lot of cases, it was a craven desire to keep climbing the political ladder. look, in my own case, i wish i quit sooner and unmasked myself sooner. i realized that's the only point at which other people came forward. is when folks started coming forward, it made it easier. i think it could have made a huge difference if people had resign en masse. i want to point out something, nicolle. just look at the slow decline in quality of the people that are in that chief of staff job around donald trump. it's the best way to project what you would get in a second

term. leave aside reince priebus because he got rid of him early. he had john kelly, a man who went into that job and said to me afterwards he felt like trump was a very, very evil man, okay. that's his own chief of staff saying his boss was evil. and the next person to take that job, mick mulvaney says you know what? i kind of see that too. and mick often wasn't there. he was often out at camp david or down in the carolinas with his family. he wanted to stay away from donald trump, because he knew he had a bad boss, and he didn't want any of that stink to stay on him. but then you end up with a mark meadows, who ends up enabling him and saying yes. what can you expect in a second donald trump administration? just continue that trajectory. it will be worse than a yes man. i actually think it's wrong that we keep saying in the next go round it will be yes man. if we can take my lesson from history, oftentimes the people who end up becoming tenants to a want to be autocrat are worse

than the autocrat. has read riddle said toe me, stalin was bad, but it was the little stalins around him that were more terroristic. i think that's what you can expect in a second trump administration. if you believe it, he will pick a lieutenant that is even more of a loyal henchman, even more willing to do his bidding than a mark meadows. that's not a very encouraging projection for democracy. >> chris whipple, you get the last word. no one has said it. i think i'll say it. miller is the one who will be the next white house chief of staff. >> nicolle, let me give you one. we talked about mark meadows sitting on tonight couch in his office, scrolling through his phone as the violent mob attacked the capitol. let me give you one other really telling example of his abdication of responsibility. it's the kind of thing a competent white house chief of staff can stop in its tracks. and that was his lawyers,

meadows' lawyers have argued that that phone call on january 2 when trump threatened and cajoled and tried to find 11,780 nonexistent votes, they said that's the kind of thing chiefs of staff do more or less in those words. they set up these phone calls. well, any competent white house chief of staff faced with that situation would have said to donald trump, mr. president, no, we're not going to make that call. furthermore, if you insist on making that call, you're going to do it on your own. and when you're done you will find my resignation letter on your desk. that's what james a. baker iii, the quintessential chief to ronald reagan or leon panetta, bill clinton's chief of staff would have said. and alas, we had nobody to fill their shoes. >> i mean, i'd even move on election night, if he hadn't conceded after all of his staff, his data guys, polling guys,

campaign manager, lawyer came in and said we don't have it. we're not going make it. i'm sorry. we did everything we could. an honorable chief of staff would have quit at that point. maybe i'm old-fashioned. >> we're earlier when donald trump to say that he would respect the results of election. >> exactly. exactly. chris whipple, it's a really important piece. it's going to shape a lot of coverage in the coming months. thank you so much for joining us to talk about it. miles teller and mary mccord, thank you very much for starting us off today. a really important conversation. when we come back, there are more revelations about the relationship between supreme court justice clarence thomas and republican mega donor, mega yacht owner harlan crow thanks to brand-new financial disclosures from the justice. we'll break it all down for you. plus, efforts to bar donald trump from being on the ballot and running for president are zeroing in on new hampshire, home to the country's first republican primary. we'll have a chance to speak to someone on the front lines of that effort.

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there is some supreme court news to tell you about today. brand-new financial disclosure forms made public just today. supreme court justice clarence thomas acknowledged that in the last year, he took three trips aboard a private jet that belongs to his billionaire

friend republican mega donor harlan crow. crow also paid for a trip to the adirondacks in new york, according to justice thomas. it is the first time in years that thomas has disclosed receiving any kind of hospitality gifts from crow, and we may not ever heard about it were it not for a series of news reports this year from propublica that highlighted multiple lavish trips and gifts that thomas received from crow over the years and failed to report. in this latest filing, clarence thomas admits to travel paid for by crow, even suggests in may of 2022 he traveled by private plane to a dallas conference due to security concerns stemming from the leaked draft dobbs pin overturning roe v. wade. thomas concluded a statement via a lawyer which reads in part the financial disclosure process should never be weaponized against any justice simply because any organization or

anyone disagrees with the way a justice thinks, writes, or votes. joining our conversation, co-director of demand justice, brian fallon is back with us. plus senior editor for slate dahlia lithwick is with us. i'm always decoding what they're saying. and i guess, brian fallon, what a lawyer for clarence thomas is saying, that no one should report on documents that no one denies are accurate or legitimate about undisclosed gifts from harlan crow to clarence thomas because they don't like the things clarence thomas rules on. is that what the lawyer is saying on behalf of supreme court justice clarence thomas? >> that indeed is what the lawyer seems to be saying. and that's consistent with what clarence thomas defenders have been saying for months as these reports by propublica and other outlets have been out there. they've been trying to say that this is just a smear campaign waged by left wing interest groups, that there is no there there, that these were perfectly

valid transactions that didn't need to be reported. and that's belied by the updated filing that clarence thomas made today. the filing itself cops to a number of past fail injuries. it admits in the filing today that the real estate transaction where harlan crow purchased justice thomas's mother's home was a reportable event that should have been included in his 2014 disclosure. and they admitted there were other things to disclose, things like bank accounts and life insurance policies that belonged in previous reports and they have only corrected the record for the first time in this report issued today. so what they have been trying to say publicly to discredit the propublica report is contradicted by the report that was filed today. there was a lot of there there in fact. they've had to admit to a bunch of things that he failed to report. having said that, though, nicolle, there is still a bunch of unanswered things after this report was filed today. for instance, there is nothing in the filing today that explains the rv financing that he got that helped him purchase that rv that's been valued over

a quarter million. there is nothing in there that explained or came clean about the tuition payments that harlan crow apparently made for his nephew that he treated like a son. even as they tried to do a damage control effort on certain things, there is still a number of questions looming after the reporting of this filing today. >> dahlia, there is such a tonal acknowledgment that the rulings are widely unpopular with a large majority of americans, and that's why what we don't don't report as gifts we're required to even under the meager ethical disclosure rules. i don't understand how they get away with sort of the arrogance with which they begrudgingly comply with the few requirements they have. i mean, the image of the court is in disrepair reputationally speaking. and that is no good for the country. i don't wish that plunging

numbers of americans hold the supreme court in high regard. but that is where we are. that is where they are. and these snarky statements via a lawyer with a sideswipe at a really important news organization doing really important work that no one disputes the accuracy of is beneath clarence thomas' lawyer. >> i mean, in some sense, nicolle, the through-line here is the victimhood that we've had all along, right? that the real genuine victim of dobbs, of the dobbs leak, the genuine victim of everything is clarence thomas. and that's unsurprising in some sense. that's the card he's been playing for a long time. you know, in a way, i guess what's interesting about this particular filing and the tone of the letter that comes with it from his attorney is that the argument finally is oh, now we're going to tell you why clarence thomas, who claimed

that he didn't like lavish travel, and he doesn't like international trips. he just wants to hang out in his rv with his wife in walmart parking lots, why he has been traveling around on private jets and going to luxury resorts around the country. and the answer is it's our fault. we made him do that. he's so afraid of the haters that he's been forced to travel abroad. and it's just such as you say a tonal anomaly given what clarence thomas and the conservative super majority have wreaked upon the nation, the actual tangible arms of dobbs and gruene, of the clean water act and the clean air act. so the idea that there is only one person who is suffering at the moment in america, and it's clarence thomas, and it's because we're mean to him is just so astoundingly ear splittingly painful to have to

process, seriously. and i almost think it comes across as troubling. >> yeah. i think the technical term for it is gaslighting. it is this begrudging acknowledgment that the propublica reporting was not just accurate, but i think it's a tell that there is a whole lot more there there. so let's start sweeping, right? let's sweep out all the stuff we did this year. but i wonder, you know, brian fallon, what else this is revealing. does this reveal some sort of effort to start complying before other investigative journalists dig deeper and find something else? >> you know, it should. if they wanted to get out ahead of this, and if they wanted the show some dexterity in responding to the new era that we're in where there is going to be scrutiny of the justices, you would think that this would beget a new era of disclosure and erring on the side of

transparence it is. but we're not getting too many signs of that. for instance, they're still not voluntarily committing themselves to a code of ethics. so we're still having that debate publicly, and the senate is still trying to pass that over the justices' objections. there is that line in the filing today where justice thomas was trying to say it was because of the security fears after the dobbs leak in the spring of 2022 that required me to fly a private plane to texas on this one trip. well, i mean, it's a little hard to take at face value when in the next line he is disclosing that he had an all expenses trip paid to the adirondacks also financed by harlan crow where harlan crow paid for all his meals. did fear require him to take free meals and lodging in the adir adirondacks? he is still taking free trips. once you become accustomed to a

lifestyle like that, you think you're entitled to it. i'm not sural that that he'll stop. maybe he'll have to disclose it because of the updated guidelines that forced the disclosure of these trips from 2022. but i don't know that he'll have the gumption to stop taking them. the one good thing that i think we can take away from today, nicolle, there is a new era here. this is first time i ever got a breaking news alert about one of these annual financial disclosures from a supreme court justice. that's a good thing for transparency. >> it says a whole lot about the kind of journalism that propublica did. and they never went beyond the four corners of what the documents that they were basing their journalism on revealed. but they also never got any pushback on the veracity or accuracy of what the documents revealed about these gifts. you're right. a whole new era. brian fallon, thank you for being here to talk about it. dahlia sticks around a little bit longer. after the break for us, new hampshire could be the site of the first big legal battle over keeping donald trump's name off

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new hampshire, the state with the first republican primary of the 2024 election season is quickly becoming a hotbed in the debate over whether donald trump is constitutionally barred, banned from ever serving as president again under the 14th amendment. this week, a republican candidate for president filed a

lawsuit to disqualify donald trump from new hampshire's primary there. and a former trump endorsed senate candidate caused headlines to take action. now "the new york times" is reporting free speech for the people, quote, sent a letter to the secretaries of state in new hampshire, as well as florida, new mexico, ohio, and wisconsin urging them to bar trump from the ballot under the 14th amendment. "new york times" adds this, quote, that the new hampshire republican party said this week that it would challenge any effort to remove trump, or any other candidates who have met requirements from the ballot. what happens here could lead to illegal showdown that goes all the way to the united states supreme court. joining our conversation, legal director for free speech for people, the group that sent the letter to those five secretaries of state, ron fine is here. dahlia lithwick is back with us as well. ron, we've heard from judge

luttig who kind of legally put this out there by locking arms with progressive law professor laurence tribe. we've heard from a secretary of state on our program that they're looking at this, along with other secretaries of state in other battleground states. take me inside your effort and your understanding of how the constitutional bars donald trump from being on the ballot. >> thanks, nicolle. well, section three of the 14th amendment says that anyone who took an oath to support the constitution and then engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the united states is forever barred from public office unless and until two-thirds of both houses of congress vote to grant that person amnesty. january 6th was a violent insurrection that not only took over the u.s. capitol, nearly assassinated the vice president and several congressional leaders, but disrupted the peaceful transfer of power for the first time in our nation's history. that's farther than the

confederacy ever got. and trump engaged in it by inciting it, facilitating it, fomenting it and goading the insurrectionists on while it happened. and that's why he is disqualified under the constitution. >> people who i think intuit the accuracy and the soundness of what you're saying i think represent a whole lot of democrats, a whole lot of independents and others who don't support donald trump. people who support donald trump being there either deny the truth, what we saw with all of our eyes and ears, or the ones who will come up with legal arguments why this is not the appropriate application of section 3 of the 14th amendment. what do you say to them? >> well, some people are arguing that donald trump isn't disqualified under section 3 of the 14th amendment. but there is also a lot of people who are basically arguing that the 14th amendment shouldn't be in the constitution at all, but it is.

we already had that debate about whether somebody who broke their oath and engaged in insurrection is disqualified from public office. we settled that debate in 1866 when we added the 14th amendment to the constitution and in 1886 when 3/4 of the states ratified it. just like if barack obama showed up with papers to file for running for election as president, he would be unqualified. he is ineligible because he has already served two terms. just like if somebody who is 12 years old filed papers, they're not old enough. or somebody who wasn't born in the united states, they're not a natural born citizen. these are provisions of the constitution that define eligibility, and frankly, section three of the 14th amendment applying to people who broke their oath and engaged in insurrection is actually in many ways more important than any of those other qualifications. >> dahlia, there have been a lot of occasions in the trump era

the last eight years when i've had to pull out or research or google elements of the constitution. have i done a whole lot of that since judge luttig was on my program and preparing for that and the coverage that has ensued since he and professor tribe have put this out there. and they continue almost daily to provide the legal back stop for exactly what ron is articulating. i want to read what professor tribe writes in "the new york times" on the role that the united states supreme court could play in all of this. quote, when it gets to the supreme court, as it surely will, this will test the dedication of the justices to principles of law. more than almost anything has for a very long time, said laurence tribe, a constitution law professor at harvard whoa believes the insurrection disqualification clearly applies to trump, because they will obviously realize telling the leading candidate of one major political party no, no way,

you're not eligible is no small matter. now there is very recent precedent. bush v gore was in the view of a lot of americans the supreme court very much getting involved in disclosure. i think most of our viewers know i worked for george w. bush. so there is both precedent, lawyers smarter than me believe that the constitution plainly calls for this. but i feel like the political conversation is taking a very long time to catch up. where do you come down on the conversation and the law, dahlia? >> you know, nicolle, i would have been more worried if moore v harper, which was the case that came out of north carolina this year that was kind of trying to bolster some of john eastman's walk wackadoo laws.

but the court batted it away. the court had no patience for what was a completely fanciful argument about how elections come down based on the constitution. that gives me some sense. and, you know, you mentioned judge luttig. you mentioned larry tribe. will bode and michael stokes paulson are two incredibly prominent conservative law professors who have just come out with this amazing article saying this is a no-brainer. this is the plain text of the 14th amendment provides for this. provides for everything that ron is saying, and that it's self-executing, and there is an amazing line in it that says "this section 3 is enacted by the enactment of the 14th amendment. it's disqualified wherever it is triggered." "just is." that's the language it has. this isn't a crazy idea that

john east cooked up that the court batted away. this is a very, very serious bunch of legal scholars using originalism to say this is as operative today as it was when it was drafted, and it is in force, and it is not even a question that it must be enforced. so you're quite right. this will percolate through the courts. it will probably make its way to the supreme court. i don't think there are six or five or even four justices who have an appetite for continuing to hold up donald trump as a paragon of democracy and a believer in the lawful transfer of power. i just don't think this supreme court is in the tank for donald trump. >> wow. ron, i'll give you the last word. if you could just play out the process for us. i mean, what should we be watching for in terms of legal milestones,s that moves forward? >> we at free speech for people are pursuing two tracks.

one which we've been discussing is to persuade secretaries of state or other chief election authorities in the states to exercise their own authority to exclude trump from the ballot. and of course, he would have an opportunity to challenge that in court if he wanted to. the second track is that in the near future, we at free speech for people on behalf of voters in multiple states will be filing formal legal challenges to trump's candidacy using state candidate eligibility challenge procedures that are designed to challenge a candidate's qualifications. and he should get ready because they're coming soon. >> that's fascinating. i really should have gone to law school, not journalism school. ron fein, dahlia lithwick, thank you both. coming up for us on the program, the wave of anti-lgbtq+ laws in the united states of america leads to a stunning and rare travel warning from our friends and neighbors to the north. we'll tell you about it. we'll tell you about it.

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eat pretzels. eat more pretzels. watch movies. watch more movies. get airline miles. get onekeycash. book in-app to earn onekeycash on top of your airline miles. in today's installment on how on earth did we get here? the canadian government is today sounding the alarm for lgbtq plus travelers who want to go to the united states of america, warning them that they may be impacted by a wave of state level laws that impact their communities. the aclu is tracking bills that target lgbtq people work more

than 80 of them signed into law in 23 states. the human rights campaign issued a state of emergency for the lgbtq plus community back in june, said this to canada's travel warning. quote, when another country is affirming the state of emergency that lgbtq plus people in the united states are currently living through, it only further validates the grim reality that our community is facing. these declarations are anything but theaterical. let's bring in former president of the lgbtq victory fund, ayesha mills. >> we have to start this conversation today, don't have enough time today to do it justist. we'll pick it up tomorrow if you're willing. i feel like this is one of the most obvious things to happen in a while on this front, but still shocking. take me through your reaction. >> you know, nicolle, i was actually on your show when the human rights campaign and the

naacp and others issued that travel advisory around florida and ron desantis and the way that he is using bigotry and hate -- literally legislating bigotry and hate and i got so much flak in talking about this. to see the canadians say now, look, our citizens may not be safe traveling to the united states, should be jaw dropping and embarrassing and frankly disgusting to us all who care deeply about your country and democracy. i'm not surprised, but i have to say, though, that i'm fearful. i continue to be fearful, and i'm glad people are sounding the alarm, because the consequence of this hateful legislation that's being enacted and issues in a variety of states is that people who have hate in their hearts are emboldened to attack lgbtq folks, young people now are afraid to be themselves for fear that their parents' livelihood might be in danger for supporting them, are afraid

that they're not going to get access to health care. can't grow up in a healthy way because they're afraid of being attacked by the state, so surely people who are traveling to this country that just want to come and vacation and have a good time and be free from bias and insults and harassment should sound the alarm, and that saddens me, nicolle. makes me sad for the state of america we're in. looking the that map and all the redness on it tells you who from a political standpoint is moving forward these laws. >> ayesha, i didn't know you got flak for anything you said on this program. pick up the phone and call us next time. you can't have a show unless you feel candid with us, so i'm sorry about that. but i want to ask you if you think there's any brake flipped in the system. do you think there's any moment that we can look at people, as moms and dads and community members and say, not on my watch? or we're going to have other people afraid to come to our

country? >> hmm. let's pray that we don't have, you know, deep domestic terrorist acts that continue to harm lgbtq folks or anybody for that matter. because the thing that all of the viewers should recognize is we're talking about lgbtq people and our safety right now in this country. but these same countries like canada and australia and the uk and others also don't want people to come here because of gun violence, so we need to be alarmed about the dangers we all face and do something about it. >> ayesha mills, to be continued i hope. thank you very much for joining us today. quick break for us. we'll be right back. r us we'll be right back. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with jason johnson in for ari starts right now. hi, jason. >> thanks, nicolle. appreciate it. welcome to "the beat." i'm jason johnson in for ari melber. we start today with legal news out of georgia. donald trump pleading not guilty in the georgia rico case. his attorneys noting he will not appear in person for the scheduled arraignment last week. it's a sign trump did not enjoy getting his mugshot taken and does not want to visit to georgia unless he has to, presumely when he goes on trial. trump revealed how he felt about it after he got booked. >> terrible experience. i came in, i was treated very nicely. it is what it is. i took a mugshot. which i never heard the words