tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i'm really rich. >> i don't need banks. i have a lot of cash. >> i built an amazing company. i'm a very rich person. >> it turned out i'm much richer than they think. >> i'm smarter than they are, i'm richer than they are. i became president and they didn't. >> are you, though, donny? are you really that rich? according to new york state attorney general tish james, you have been lying about that too. plus, another pair of proud boys find out how much time they'll be spending behind bars for throwing in their lot with serial liar donald trump. and later, supreme court justices file new financial disclosure forms, did clarence remember to list all those fancy trips and vacations paid for by harlan crow this time? stick around to find out. >> but we begin tonight with fact versus fiction.

reality versus a reality show. when it comes to donald trump, you know which side he tends to come down on. trump seems convinced that he can make people believe the world is actually flat. his embrace of lies, conspiracy theories and alternative facts underscores most of his legal woes. in court filings today in the georgia election interference case, trump pleaded not guilty and opted to waive his right to an arraignment next week. he also requested to sever his case from any of his 18 codefendants who are demanding speedy trials. also today, the judge in the georgia case, scott mcafee, announced cameras would be allowed in the courtroom for all hearings and proceedings. they will also be livestreamed on youtube. so that's fun. as to trump's ivoidance of his arraignment, perhaps he's too busy preparing those bizarre and random social media posts he's been posting that show he continues to live in the upside down. in one, he thanks the heavily democratic city of atlanta and

three majority black neighborhoods for supposedly showering him with support. of course, there's no evidence that there was even a sprinkle of support from the same city he repeatedly called horrible and crime infested and one of the neighborhoods he called out voted for joe biden with roughly 90% of the vote, according to the atlanta journal constitution. speaking of the reality show version of the world trump lives in, it's actually a different legal case that threatens to put an end to one of his longest running fictions that he's actually a real billionaire, the civil case from letitia james' office is fascinating, with claims that trump and his company defrauded banks and business associates by inflalting his net worth and the value of his assets by billions of dollars on financial statements. that trial is scheduled for october 2nd. now remember, it was trump's supposed business success as portrayed in his reality show, the apprentice, that propelled

him into the white house. we now have the transcript for the deposition trump gave in the new york case, and here's the thing. far from being a very stable genius, trump is really not that good at depositions. when he's forced to answer questions under oath, it usually doesn't go well. during his deposition in the e. jean carroll case, he not only doubled down on his famous "access hollywood" comments, but even after making the abhorrent defense that he couldn't have sexually assaulted carroll because she was not his type, he confused an image of her with his former wife, marla maples. >> true that stars can grab women by the [ bleep ]? >> if you look over the last million years i guess that's been largely true, not always, but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider yourself to be a star? >> i think you can say that, yeah. it's marla.

>> you say marla is in this photo? >> that's marla, yeah. that's my wife. >> which woman are you pointing to? >> here. >> the person you appointmented to is e. jean carroll. >> who is this? >> the woman on the right is your then wife? >> i assume that's john johnson. is that carroll? it's very blurry. >> it's very blurry. so trump agreed to sit down in what turned out to be a seven-hour deposition this april with the new york attorney general paufs, you can guess how well that went for him. trump claimed he could not have been involved in committing business fraud in the white house because he was too abysy saving the world from nuclear holocaust. i was very busy, i was considered the most important job in the world, saving millions of lives. i think you would have nuclear holocaust if i didn't deal with north korea. i think you would have a nuclear war if i weren't elected. i think you might have a nuclear war now if you want to know the

truth. when it came to his annual financial statements in which james says he overvalued his properties by up to $2.2 billion each year, it looks like trump copied the defense that his recent pal and fired fox host tucker carlson's lawyers used in a slander suit against tuck 'ems. that trial, that trump never felt that the documents would be taken seriously. trump -- i never felt that the statements would be taken very seriously because you open it up and right at the beginning of the statement, you read a page and half of the stuff saying go get your own accounting. go get your own this, go get your own that. a lawyer for the new york attorney general's office asked, so why did you get the statements prepared? trump responded, i would say more for maybe myself, just to see the list of properties. i think more for myself than anything else. and if that wasn't enough to get him off the hook, trump said, don't trust him.

just listen to his friends. quote, friends of mine have said you're the most honest person in the world, so we have done a good job. don't get credit for it. that's okay. i'm joined now by joyce vance, msnbc legal analyst, former u.s. attorney, and professor at the university of alabama school of law, and tim o'bryant, msnbc analyst and the executive editor of bloomberg opinion, who i think was very much enjoying the trump deposition. tim, you deposed trump before. why does he keep doing it? how did it go when you did it? >> first off, when donald trump says i'm the most honest person in the world, know he's lying. and the other interesting thing i was just thinking about as you ran that is when trump sued me for my book, at the core of it, there was a lot of issues he was uncomfortable with. part of it was he claimed he was defamed because the book intentionally lowballed his wealth, which i didn't do.

we never got to court. the case was dismissed. but during the course of that, he insisted he had given me one of these documents, one of these statements of financial condition that are at the core of tish james' prosecution, new york attorney general. during the course of the deposition, he lied that i received one of them. i never had. he also talked during that deposition about how these were definitive outlines of how much he was worth, that i should have tang them seriously. and they passed one across the table to me. this lawyer said would you take this seriously? i said actually i wouldn't. why? because in the opening pages of the document, it says it hasn't been audited by his accountants and it doesn't conform with standard accounting principles. so it's very interesting to see him now say, you shouldn't take this seriously, because it doesn't conform to standard accounting principles, and my accountants didn't sign off on it, and i don't really take them seriously. i treated it like a list of

properties, which is completely untrue. he used these things to convince the media that he was wealthier than he was. and the reason that's so important to him, the reason you see him on these tapes talking about i'm much richer than other people, i'm much smarter than other people, i'm president and you're not, is because he's deeply insecure. he's insecure about his intellect, about his success. he's insecure about his wealth. he's insecure about his physicality. you name it, he's insecure about it, which is why he always boasts about it. what's interesting now in the current prosecution that he's facing on this issue, it's the first time he's been held to account and rigorously, other than our lawsuit, in a legal setting in which he gets himself in trouble when he lies under oath or he's presented with documents that contradict the truth. >> yeah, and joyce, it is not illegal to plus up your wealth to try to make yourself look good, right? it is -- i can imagine it's not illegal to lie about being richer than you are to get, you know, marks to vote for you and

make you president because they think the apprentice is real and not fake like cribs. he did that, but he's in trouble anyway, right? so he did things like in this deposition, say his properties are like the mona lisas of properties. he's still lying even in the deposition. he said his brand is worth billions. quote, donald trump, the biggest thing is not included, it's my brand. my lawyers never bring it up but the brand is the biggest. you can double, triple my statement. my brand is if i wanted to create a good sentence, sentence one, my brand is worth billions of dollars. why is he in trouble at least in the civil case for lying about his brand when it is not legal technically to say you're richer than you are? >> that's exactly the right question to ask to help us understand this lawsuit. it's brought by new york's attorney general, as you point out, joy. it's a civil case. and it alleges that trump fraudulently used fraudulent

practices, what tim is referring to on these accounting statements, in order to obtain benefits when he was trying to get, for instance, insurance, or trying to value properties in order to get loans. so she is in essence alleging that he engaged in improper business practices and should be penalized in terms of his ability to do ongoing business in the state of new york. that's the ultimate liability that he faces here. >> and so tim, there's talk of what she could do, the sanctions. she could stop him from doing business in the state of new york, which is still the core of where his businesses are. if it also comes out in the course of this trial that he's lying about all of it, i would wonder if people would want to invest in his future golf course businesses. he mainly sells his name. he doesn't own as many buildings as people think he owns. >> just on this whole issue of him insisting his brand has incredible value, no accountant

includes brands in the value of when they assess someone's net worth. it's a subjective number, not included. there's no actual demonstrable evidence other than condo sales many years ago that the trump name enhanced the value of anything he touched. there's a lot of evidence recently with people taking his name off buildings that it's become a ball and chain. putting that issue aside. new york is the core of his wealth. most of his wealth is tied up in a small handful of buildings. the golf courses and even the licensing stuff doesn't really account for most of his wealth. he built that wealth on his father's money in new york. and i think the real threat in the tish james case is she can prevent him ultimately from doing business in the state and city of new york. >> and he's lied about it before. i mean, pharynholt has done a great deal of work at "the new york times" about things like him lying about how many rooms are in some of his properties. he'll say there are 55 rooms

when there's 35. he does have a history of just sort of making things up about his businesses and saying that they're worth a lot of money, but that has gotten him by. he's gotten bank loans even though he doesn't pay back loans. he's gotten more people to invest and buy his condos saying they're worth more and more valuable than they are. he's gotten away with it for so long. you know the guy a little bit. what would it do to him if all this trial does is expose that all of that is bs, that he really ain't that rich, and that none of it was true, what do you think that does to him? >> it's a deep scarring wound for him because his self-esteem is so tied up in this idea that he has more money than he has. he is comfortably rich by most people's standards but not by his own because he has this unquenchable need to be seen a certain way and he's fought going to get past that. i think the hurdle faces tish james in her case is that she's going to have to prove that the banks were damaged. and i think that i don't think

most banks simply relied on this little ginned up statement that trump and his cfo allen weisselberg pushed across the table to them, but we could see. it could go differently if it goes to court. >> talk about that, joyce. it is -- she still has to prove this case. i mean, there's been like i said, others have done a lot of work on it. tim has done a lot of work on it. people kind of know the basics of the fact that he makes up things about his wealth. how hard of a hurdle do you think it will be for her to actually prove liability and be able to sanction him? >> so she clearly believes that she has this one right between the eyes. earlier this week, she filed a motion for partial summary judgment. that asks the judge to remove some of these claims that she's made from consideration by the jury. and defined as a matter of law that he has actually engaged in fraudulent reporting. that would leave for the jury if the court grants that motion

this issue that tim is focusing on, whether there's some way of showing that the banks relied on these statements. james has put forward theories that cover that ground. it's actually not a straight-up damages theory. it's more of a reliance theory that they're entitled to rely on these filings made with them that they did in certain cases to their detriment, offering loans that might not have been offered had those statements not been put into play, talking about different divisions in deutsche bank that trump went to to get loans when he had problems in certain parts of that institution. it's complicated. it's detailed. that's why these cases go to trial, if they were easy, they would be resolved in advance. that's not to pretend that she has an easy case, but she has a strong one. >> let's talk about jared kushner for a minute. this is the trump organization and obviously, this is trump's issue, but jared kushner is actually getting attention now.

jamie raskins and democrats in the house are asking to look into the $2 billion that he got. and he's asked republicans -- >> from the saudis. >> so he leaves affinity partners, a $3 billion equity fund kushner founded after they left the white house. there's some peeking into that a little bit. >> they're peeking into it because jared kushner in the investment world is a junior mint. no one would be given jared kushner $2 billion unless he had proximity to the former president of the united states and that you're placing a bet that he'll have proximity to a future president of the united states. >> or that there already was some quid pro quo. >> like, for example, arms that went to saudi arabia when most of the congress was against it and trump approved it and actually overrode congressional opposition to an arms deal with the saudis. i think both steve mnuchin and the former treasury secretary -- >> who also got a billion. >> also got money from the

saudis. both here and jared are open to an investigation on influence peddling in the past and the present and with a guard against the future. you don't want a white house that can be bought off by somebody who can mask a bribe as an investment in someone's investment fungd, which i think is at the core of this issue. >> really quick, he's made like 40 something of these videos. he's basically sitting in front of a camera making these wild videos. thanking iowa home schoolers and all this stuff. which do you think is freaking him out more? the exposure of the reality of him not being a billionaire in the tish james case, or going to prison? or is it equal, both? >> i think he is angry and afraid because he is confronting existential threats he never has. one is reputational and not existential. this issue of his wealth. the other is the possibility he ends up in jail. you're seeing him in these depositions bob and weave and lie to get away from that. when he said in her deposition he was never in control of the

trump organization, while he was in the white house, nothing, no money moves, no document got signed without his consent in that company. >> tim o'brien, thank you, my friend. joyce is going to be back in a bit to discuss billionaire wanna be, clarence thomas. first, the blind devotion and unwavering loyalty of trump's allies and supports is a mystery to most of us. i'll talk to an expert of dictatorships when autocracy when "the reidout" continues. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. check it out, you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, i'll look into that. let me put a reminder on my phone. save $700 dollars. pick up dad from airport? ohhhhhh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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. that f around and find out chant on january 6th, 2021, was led by joe biggs. today it looks like biggs is in the find out stage for his actions on the 6th. he was sentenced to 17 years in prison for seditious conspiracy. that's well below the 33 years prosecutors were asking for and one year less than the longest sentence received so far received by elmer stewart rhodes, another proud boy, zachary rehl, was also sentenced to 15 years in prison. while former proud boys chairman and head of florida's chapter of latinos for trump, enrique tarrio, is also facing up to 33 years in prison, will be sentenced next week. they all will join the ranks of the countless number of people who are facing the consequences

of associating themselves with donald trump, and it is worth asking, why? a lot of these people don't even really know him. he's not their friend. he probably wouldn't let most of these people into his clubs if he had a chance. and yet they're going to spend time in prison because of him. even his actual friends and associates like rudy giuliani and mark meadows have had their reputations destroyed or face potentially losing their law licenses because they too did trump's bidding. waltine nauta and carlos deolavaria are now codefendants in his indictment for stealing classified documents. not to mention his codefendants in the georgia indictment, like harrison floyd, the leader of black voices for trump, who upon being released on bail from fulton county jail had this to say on steve bannon's show of all places. >> the black culture is always voting democrat. i went against the code, if you will, at the highest order, and

so the district attorney decided she wanted to send me what we call a negro wake-up call. >> i am joined now -- i'm joined -- i'm joined now by agonga williams, former senior investigative counsel on the house january 6th committee and partner at splendy, gay, elsberg, and ruth ben-ghiat. i'm sorry, i was just shaking my head. come on, man. this is a man who was the only one, this gentleman, harrison floyd in georgia, black voices for trump. the only guy who had to sit in that horrible prison, horrible jail, because he couldn't make bail because he also did another crime, allegedly, assaulting an fbi official. i promise you, donald trump doesn't know when he is. i guarantee donald trump would not have done a fund-raiser to

raise money to get him out of jail. he had to figure that out on his own. yet he comes out of that experience seemingly still in the faith. does it make sense to you as a former prosecutor, and just as a black man, to see that guy up here saying it's the negro wake-up call for them to indict him for allegedly committing actual crimes for a stranger. >> yeah, i mean, it doesn't make sense to me as a prosecutor or as a black prosecutor. one thing you learn prosecuting crimes that people have their coming to jesus moment at different times. you'll be surprised, you will arrest people, sometimes red handed. they got whatever you arrested them for in their hand and they'll lie to you to your face. i think he still hasn't had his actual wake-up call. he's still, i think, in this delusion he's doing something right or maybe deep down it's something wrong, but we see this a lot as prosecutors. i think with time, when they get closer to that prison sentence, when it all starts to get a lot

more real, i guarantee you, you're going to see his tone change. >> i wonder if enrique tarrio is maybe starting to see the light a little bit. he literally is facing his cohorts have gotten 17, 18 years. the government has asked for 33. i want to ask you quickly before i bring ruth in, what do you make of the fact that prosecutors have been asking for 30-plus years for these guys. they are consistently getting lowballs on what they were being asked. joseph biggs, 33 years. what the prosecutors wanted. he only got 17. zachary rehl, 30, he got 15. stewart rhodes who calls himself elmer, 25 years, got 18. what do you make of the fact they're all getting much lower than what was asked for? >> i think it's not only what was asked for. it's what we call the sentencing guidelines. any time anyone gets sentences, we use a book. you look at the regulations and tell the judge, everyone agrees, here's what this crime and this conduct should have. here's the range that courts should consider. so what the courts have been

doing is going under what the regulations and the rules basically recommend. here, it was 27 to 33 years. so the government asked for what the rules say. and i think that the court was going under because one of the main reasons, what the court wanted consistency with other similarly situated defendants. if folks are getting 17, 18, the court wants to go not too far from that. if i'm former president trump, i'm thinking about those same rules that say you need similar sentences for similar conduct, i think i'm going to be thinking about that, because if folks who are basically the foot soldiers, if those folks are getting 18, 17 years, what's a guy at the top of the pyramid getting. >> ruth ben-ghiat, welcome to the show. i want to ask you, in my mind, one of the reasons that these people felt confident that they could commit crimes and livestream them is that there has been a permissive

environment that has been accorded to people on the right. right-wing christians have been sort of in a special category. these people felt they had a license to do it, and historically, white supremacy has been countenance, lynching, countenance, burning down and overthrowing black-led governments in reconstruction, countenance. that's been going on so long that it's hard to now tell people you have to live under the law. a new piece of reporting here, trump campaign aide from new hampshire, tepically director of trump's 2024 campaign in new hampshire, he's on the capitol on january 6th saying if you're a police officer, saying this into the camera, and you're going to abide by unconstitutional bs, i want you to do be a favor and go hang yourself, go f yourself. these people are literally breaking the law and essentially behaving in terroristic fashion because they think they can. do you think that the light sentences help contribute to that idea?

>> yeah, they do, but it's also really important that they're happening because, you know, the proud boys, for example, is a very -- it's growing. it's one of the largest and most violent hate groups in the country. and it has a lot of ties with the gop, with republicans, local, state, and national level. there was a 2022 study showing that 1 in 5 gop officials had some sympathy or donation or some kind of extremist group or organization or belief. and so this isn't just about biggs or one person, this is about the normalization of extremism. the other thing is that the special relationship that trump has, and he came on the scene to energize all racists, to have a big tenlt, to make all extremists feel like they had a home. he uses his campaign events as

radicalization vehicles. this is really important. that's why we have to be careful how we cover these events. in 2020, at a campaign debate, trump mentioned the proud boys and their membership surged. so what we're seeing when we have these prosecutions and these sentences, it's also a strike at this whole culture of extremism that leads up to trump. >> why to you think people at the low levels stay loyal? people like the waltine nautas who have nothing to gain from trump other than he's got a job, i'm not sure what he gets paid for it, but even people who never met trump, why do they stay loyal? he's not going to help them. he doesn't care about them. >> why indeed. yes, well, the coming to jesus moment, which i have examples in my book from around the world, eventually these people find out that trump doesn't care about them. that in fact he would throw them under the bus. he despises them, actually.

the demagog actually despises those who worsep him because he sees them as weak. and there's these profound psychological dynamic but the frame is not democracy, the frame is authoritarianism. this is why the gop, it's an authoritarian party. the spectacle of that debate where, you know, almost all of those running against him said that they would support him even if he were a convicted felon and there's desantis, the florida fascist who looks around and then he raises his hand. this kind of fear and this kind of conformism, you usually see that in authoritarian settings, not democratic ones. >> and exit question to you. as a prosecutor, do you -- since there seems to be an endless cycle of these people, trump can keep turning out new ones. he's making videos today to make sure he gets more recruits.

it doesn't seem like there's an end point where people wake up and snap out of it. there just seem to be new people every day willing to sign up for this anti-democracy club. this gang. >> yeah, well, using your term as a gang, i think that's why it's so important to go after the gang leader. i think that's only highlighting why the prosecutions, both for jack smith and fani willis, could be a paradigm shift, because when you hold the top of a gang or some other cult or some other criminal enterprise responsible, when you remove that, it makes it easier for the entire structure to crumble. >> it's a crips and bloods level. this is a gang, and they commit crimes together, which is why i think fani willis did a brilliant thing to call them what they are. it is a gang. thank you both very much. still ahead, well deserves vindication for georgia election workers rudy freeman and shaye moss as a judge rules they were

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elections workers targeted in donald trump's attempt to overthrow the 2020 election, ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss told the january 6th committee about the ways their

lives were upended based on lies for simply doing their civic duty. >> it's turned my life upside down. i no longer give out my business card. i don't transfer calls. i done want anyone knowing my name. i don't want to go anywhere where my mom because she might yell my name out over the grocery aisle or something. >> i have lost my name, and i have lost my reputation. i have lost my sense of security. all because a group of people starting with number 45 and his ally rudy giuliani decided to scapegoat me. >> well, now, the aforementioned rudy giuliani is about to pay up for his lies. after a federal judge ruled giuliani defamed freeman and moss and is liable for damages. a civil trial will be held to

determine the amount. i'm joined by von dubose, the attorney representing ruby freeman and shaye moss. thank you for being here. i just want to find out how ms. freeman and ms. moss are feeling in the wake of this ruling in their favor. >> they feel good about it. they feel like this has been vindication, not all vindication, i would say, certainly partial vindication. there's still more work to be done. the trial phase, as you mentioned, is coming up next. and unfortunately, you can't win your sense of security at trial, so it won't be a full vindication in that sense. and restoring them to where they should be, but this was a good development, and they're very happy about what the judge did yesterday. >> and i can tell you that over here, we consider them to be national heroes because anyone who helps folks vote, other than librarians, those are my favorite people. let's remind everyone what was said about these two wonderful

women by rudy giuliani in which he defamed them. >> earlier in the day, ruby freeman and shaye moss and one of the gentleman quite obviously surreptitiously started passing around usb ports as if they're vials of heroin or cocaine. >> what was your mom handing you on the video? >> a ginger mint. >> we know that rudy giuliani has claimed that he was simply vigorously advocating for his client, donald trump. and that he has tried to defend his statements, but has he ever personally apologized to ms. freeman and ms. moss for lying about them? >> absolutely not. he has in fact doubled down on every opportunity, and we still deal with statements from him even after the lawsuit, even after he's been found liable. so he has not apologized. at all. >> let's talk about what the judge said. judge howell, who did rule in

your favor. she said the bottom line is that giuliani has refused to comply with his discovery obligations and thwarted the procedural rights to obtain any meaningful discovery in the case, taking shortcuts to win an election -- taking shortscuts to win an election carries risk, even potential liability. it carries serious sanctions. so essentially, is that saying that he just wouldn't comply with discovery at all? >> that's right. that's exactly what that's saying. you mentioned in your last segment, license. that a lot of people feel they have license to do whatever they want. that was obviously the case with mr. giuliani, as he was before this court. he felt like the discovery rules did not apply to him, and judge howell said in a very definite and certain way yesterday that they absolutely do. >> he's also trying to cry poverty. the judge said the following, that giuliani could not

reimburse the attorneys -- his claims that he cannot reimburse the attorneys fees he owes your clients were dubious given giuliani was able to pay more than $320,000 to the vendor holding his electronic data which former president donald trump's super pac reportedly paid, had recently listed his new york city parmentd for $6.5 million and reportedly flew in a private plane to georgia to surrender to authorities after being indicted there. giuliani is, i guess, attempting to wriging out of what he owes your clients saying he doesn't have any money. what do you say to that? >> well, obviously, the well is not dry. there are resources at his fingertips. he flew down to atlanta on a private plane just last week. so we know there are resources. after reducing the judgment to an actual number in the trial, the next phase will be identifying assets and trying to

satisfy that judgment. >> it still hurts my heart when i say rudy freeman saying she lost her reputation and her daughter saying she's afraid to have her name call out or give out her business card. i wonder if that feeling has changed since they have gotten so much support around the country and i hope they know and feel how much people care about them and love the fact that they stood up for democracy and refused to be intimidated. is there any sense for them that they feel vindicated and they don't feel that same sense of pain or is it still that bad for them right now? >> there is some sense of vindication in judge howell's ruling yesterday, but at the same time, they still deal with a lot of the fallout from what's happened. it's particularly difficult to see rudy giuliani try to position himself as the victim. that he's being victimized in this entire process. i have heard people say often

that they can't believe how far he's fallen. and the level that he's fallen to. well, he didn't fall. he stooped to this level. and it's not sad to see at all. what's sad is what's happened to ruby and shaye as a result of his intentional lies. >> and some folks from new york might say he didn't fall at all. he just revealed who he always was. von dubose, thank you very much. and coming up, supreme court justice clarence thomas says that he inadvert nltly omitted luxury gifts and travel paid by billionaire harlan crow on his previous financial disclosures. so what about the new one? find out next. love you.

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if you listen to the most vociferous conservative judges on the supreme court, propublica is in blood sport only targeting the conservative justices. that news organization has successfully accomplished what nobody has been able to do when it comes to clarence thomas and samuel alito. namely, accountability. today, both associate justices released their financial disclosure statements after a 90-day delay. what's in it isn't exactly new, but that's thanks to the dogged reporting of propublica.

clarence thomas amended his past filings to publicly declare that mega donor sugar daddy harlan crow paid for several luxury trips and flights on a private jet. oh, and he also finally admitted that harlan crow bought his mama's house back in 2014, but the disclosure came after an abnormal six page screed from his lawyer who defended his client by called his lapses inadvertent emissions. here's the funny thing. back in 2011, he also acknowledged that he inadvertently omitted 13 years of information about who his wife was working for. both justices left the liability sections blank, although i would argue dishonesty and dubious ethical standards seems to be a bit of a liability to me. joyce vance is back with me. what is the significance here? clarence thomas and his lawyers are claiming and insisting that he did not break laws or

violate rules. he just didn't have to disclose it until now. does that sound credible to you? >> right, so, he argues two things. one, as you pointed out, joy, is inadvertent disclosures. for what ever used reason, i made a mistake, i'm human. repeatedly. and the second part of it is this notion that he wasn't required to report some of these quote unquote hospitality trips until the rules for recording change this year in the wake of all these disclosures. technically he might have a point. practically the issue is, who is prepared to do anything about this? did these justices, i would include judges alito as well, who did not disclose everything that one might think any other government employee would have disclosed, is anyone willing to take this up? will there be any formal sanction? will the court acknowledge that there have been passed scenes

and we commit to doing better in the future? might doj investigate? in the absence of any true systemic accountability you could say that these folks will breathe a sigh of relief, be happy that they got away with it, and go on their merry way because they have life tenure. >> the thing about it, one of the many things is, these are people who are writing rulings that tell us that if, that tell us whether you can have bodily autonomy, whether you can have an abortion. they're going to write our tax rules for billionaires. they get to decide a lot of stuff. but we are supposed to believe that they are not smart enough to figure out that they have to disclose trips from their billionaire friends? and then they try to write it off as, these are just our friends. does anyone believe that harlan crow would take clarence thomas out on trips if he wasn't in the supreme court? and if clarence thomas were to retire from the supreme court,

he would keep him to taking him on trips. it galls me, but you as a former prosecutor, someone holding people to the rule of law, does it gall you as much as me, that we don't know what we're doing when we fill out forms? >> i'm going to say that i am at least on a par with you, joy, if not more upset by this, because the reality is, judges, and especially supreme court justices, have a special obligation to all of us to make sure that their behavior is literally an impeachable. they are so careful that they don't draw close to any ethical lines. they stay far back from them. for exactly the reasons that you have identified, because our trust in the judiciary is essential to having a functioning constitutional republic. so these judges not only violated the rules, they seemed to be unabashed by those violations. they have only come forward with this new reporting because they have been forced to. they don't seem committed to

not doing it in the future. i think justice thomas has not formally disclosed payments made for his nephews education, although they have been widely reported on. at a bare minimum, what we need from the justices is a commitment to follow the same rules that every other federal judge follows. you'll recall that they are not controlled by any of the rules that apply to other federal judges. that would seem to be a minimal starting point, given what we now know about past conduct. >> or city council people who have more rules than they do. there's also the weird little princess club. john eastman among those vouching for clarence thomas, 112 people have identified as his formal law clerks, laura ingraham, i don't know if she signed it, but you've got that, you get the fact that thomas's wife is an insurrectionist. you've got the fact that alito is writing angry screed's in the wall street journal and

giving angry interviews. is there a history before these particular justices of this kind of flagrant, blatant behavior that also seems to be spitting in the face of the people that they get to regulate? >> so i think that there have been problems before, notably justice -- had to step down in the middle of a scandal. there have been other sorts of issues. the problem with this one is that it is systemic. the court lacks ethics rules, lacks former disclosure rules, like every other federal employee, like what i had to disclose when i was a united states attorney. but also when i was a prosecutor. that's what we need. we need a systemic response to a systemic problem problem. >> joyce vance, thank you for sticking around. we appreciate you. we'll be right back. right back. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only $999.

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all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight on all in -- >> i don't want to civil war. i don't want to have to draw my rifle. i want to make this problem go away. >> the indicted ex president fans the flames of fascism. >> highly respected georgia state senator colton moore deserves thanks and congratulations. >> and the states republican governor pushes back. >> i have not seen any evidence that d.a.