indicted legal situation later in the show. i want to begin with a big policy win for president biden. the lie that is being told about it by some republicans. for 20 years the pharmaceutical industry has had near complete control of prescription drug pricing for some 65 million medicare patients in the united states. that will soon change. this week the biden administration announced the first ten drugs that will be subject to price negotiations under a new provision included in the inflation reduction act. president biden's signature will recall passed last year. needless targets some of the most commonly used drugs at help treat conditions like diabetes, heart failure, and the level of blood thinners that prevent strokes and blood clots. the department of health and human services, about nine

billion medicare beneficiaries use one or more of these ten drugs in the past year and paid a total of 3.4 billene hours out of pocket for those medications. that is on top of the 55.9 billion dollars that the government spends on the safe checks every year. the federal government is the largest buyer of prescription drugs in the united states. now theoretically, in a market system, that would mean it has some measure of influence over the drug prices. power that has been specifically nullified by something called the non interference close. back in 2000, three when congress and president george w. bush passed the prescription drug benefit to medical care, -- pharmaceutical lobby added something called the non interference clause, which prevented the government -- and prescription drugs and the

country's negotiating drug prices directly with pharmaceutical companies. in some cases, that has resulted in americans being double or triple the same amount for the same exact drug as people other developed nations pay, precisely because many other governments did not give away their suit at the bargaining table like america did. lower job prices means lower premiums, and lower out of pocket costs for those on medicare, as well as less money out of taxpayers pockets, including if you never used any of these strikes. this one change in federal policy is a big deal, because it has the opportunity to fundamentally change prescription drug pricing in the united states to the benefit of millions of americans. it would not seem that way if you were only paying attention to republicans reactions to it this week. some congress members, including senator marshall blackburn of tennessee called the new policy, quote, a socialist price setting program. meanwhile, former united states

ambassador presidential candidate nikki haley went as far as to call the entire inflation reduction act, quote, a communist manifesto. so let's get one thing clear. this policy is less like communism, and more like costco. like costco, medicare now has the ability to purchase products from remanufacture, and bargain down the price so that internet can offer those products to its members that lower prices. drug manufacturers can opt in, or opt out. and likewise, nothing prevents consumers from shopping elsewhere to buy the same or similar products at a lower cost, or higher cost. the free market does not mean that manufactures can set whatever price they want, would choices mean consumers have more buying power. that is actually what capitalism is. this is capitalism working as it should. under communism, there would be no negotiation at all, there would not be anyone for the government to negotiate, with because under communism, private businesses would cease to exist. communism is a political and

economic ideology that promote society in which all property and wealth is common lee own. to live under communism is to relinquish every aspect of your life to the government, goods and services are rationed out, from, housing towards a, paper even electricity. citizens are expected to devote their lives in service of the government, and its ideology to glorify the military and its leaders. there are a few communist nations today, because it is a despised ideology, and rightfully so. but calling politicians communist is easier to dismiss in this political climate, because it is normalized, particularly by the republican presidential front runner, the failed former president donald trump, who is this the terms socialists, marxists, and communist freely and interchange interchangeably. they are catchall was that some republicans have become much more comfortable, using to signal certain political opponent or policy is, bad without having to actually explain why or how they are bad, or what you should do in their

place. nikki haley's presidential team has taken to this one to the next level, them and targeting democrats they think are, quote, soft on china, by posting a series of communist style images complete with a hammer and sickle titled comrades of the week. images are so beyond -- have been punished, they have been imprisoned, and they have been killed for the mere suggestion or suspicion that they were a communist sympathizer. nikki haley, like everyone, else has the right to disagree with her fellow politicians and policies, now if she's going to use dangerous and fearmongering rhetoric, be honest, debate policies, based on their merits. do not call people communist, or not called things communist that aren't. joining me now is an applebaum, senior fellow at the johns hopkins school of advanced international studies, and the -- pulitzer prize-winning as dorian as well, author of several books including twilight of democracy, the

selective lore of authoritarianism hole so -- stafford it with a new yorker and a host of -- author of -- thank you both for being with me today. you and i talk about a lot of things over the, yes but i wanted to have you here for this one. so many of your books have studied communism. and i know, people should not be having discussions to whether prescriptions are pressing and america's communism were not, but everything is communism these days. nikki haley really throws that a lot, donald trump throws it many times a day, and it does have an ugly history in america. calling people communist who aren't has been really bad in american history. so i want to bring you on to sort of talk about what we do about this. we are not debating whether or not prescription shark prices or prescott's are good or, bad but we are discussing something else. why is nobody calling everybody communist? >> i think one of the things we do, we start teaching people real history. i wrote three books about communist regimes, one s about the soviet --

which is a system of mass forced labor. innocent people were arrested, picked up of the, street hundreds, hundreds of thousands, political prominence, some ordinary people, including mass prison camps where millions died. and another book about the soviet disruption of central europe, the waves of violence that came in, murdering politicians, murdering priests in order to take over those countries and set up a soviet empire. then a third book about the ukrainian famine which was a quote official famine created to kill people. so when you talk about communism, you are talking about a bloody vicious regime that sought to hold power through violence, it's not to control everything, not just the economy, but education, propaganda, schools, after school programs, sports, teams almost everything was assumed into the communist system. we are not anywhere near that

in america. and the fact that it is still used as a term of abuse, i think it indicates that americans did not really know what happened. they don't know what happened in the period that we call the cold war, the period when communist had a lot of other countries as well. and it is time that schools began teaching some of that history. >> i have this conversation with the chairman of the council of economic advisers to the president of the united states. here's what he told me. he told me these accusations of marshall blackburn's case of socialist price fixing are completely out of tune. here's why. >> for about 33 years, presidents have tried to achieve this goal. which, by the way, contrary to socialism, is actually competition. it is allowing one of the most important buyers in the market to compete. it is not fixing prices, it is not saying here is the, ceiling

has the floor. it is saying, let's negotiate. and, presidents on both sides i have not tried to do it, biden actually got it done. >> and in fact, sheila, not only presidents on both sides tried to do, it president trump tried to do it. president trump, one of his core things he never achieved, was figuring out ways to bring down the price of prescription drugs in america. >> well, it is really a sign of desperation, i would say, on the part of the republican candidates who were using this terminology, as and pointed, out they clearly do not know what it really means. they are insulting the intelligence of their voters, by assuming they do not know what it means. and, it is really a deflection that they had hoped to run against joe biden based on attacking his handling of the economy. and, that line has withered away. because, in fact, biden has been pretty good for the

economy, unemployment is, low inflation was worrying for a while, but it has been tamed down. there is a resurgent labor movement in this country, which a lot of people would argue is a very positive thing. nothing's not perfect, young people still cannot afford to buy homes. interest rates are high. so on and so forth. but, it is pulling out the storm communism which has been misused and abused for decades, let's remember in the 1940s medicare was introduced, people screamed that was communist. now voters love it. it was just a lack of imagination, and it shows they can't really attack him on the economic substance. >> you make an interesting point, and, that is the -- lens of economic so when i speak about communism i talk it through the lens of economics. you talk about the fact that in these, books in these countries, with very few exceptions, in central europe, communism was toe-to-toe totalitarianism.

it was one control of, things not just the economy. one thing we are seeing in america that resembles totalitarianism, in other parts of the world's controls over speech, how we speak, book bans, things like that. so that has actually gotten more in common with those types of regimes then negotiating prices for drugs. >> i mean, the attempted to control what people say by the state, in other words the states that's rules about what people can read and can see, yes that has echoes of authoritarian regimes in other types and other places. and the fact that different groups in the united states seek to do that is a sign that we are living in an era when a lot of those bad ideas are coming back. i mean now there is a world in which you can do it not through the state, you can seek to intimidate people, from saying what they think using social

media, using other means. but when you come back down to, it the use and number of state governors including florida, you mentioned ponder sentencing introduction, to control what schools are able to, say what teachers are able to teach, this is a lot more reminiscent of autocracy than, negotiating the price of drugs. >> sheila, i use the costco example because you, know people have said well, if jar companies do not want to negotiate with medicare, they might be penalized. well, the penalty largely as you want to be able to sell your checks the medicare, which is a great place to tell you, trunks because it is a major market. the same way that a peanut butter manufacture does not want to negotiate with, costco -- there sell or anywhere else, for as much money as they, want that is the rule under this new rule. you don't want to negotiate with, medicare totally cool, you can sell your target whatever price you want at whatever price people will pay, you just can distributed through medicare. >> well that is the definition

of a, market, isn't it where you have two parties coming together, and based on supply, demand they come to an agreed price. so, yes of, course that is one of many examples of how we do not have a communist, marxist, or even socialist economy. our health care system is actually run by a series of gigantic private corporations, that make millions of dollars in profit off of our health care, the situation does not set prices for almost anything you buy, new government does not try and privatized industries, president biden has not suggested we should abolish a private property, you know, college costs are still vastly out of reach for a lot of people, because the government does not tell ecologist what they can charge. so yes, this clearly conveys a total lack of understanding, or the expectation that people will just have a negative

association and we are nothing anymore deeply about what they need and how completely absurd they are in the situation. >> i appreciate the analysis of the -- an apple, bomb johns hopkins school of advanced international studies of the institute and pulitzer prize-winning story, the author of twilight in the market, see the suspected rule of authoritarianism. if you would like to get a handle on the history of, communism to flee -- sheila is a staff writer with a new yorker and host of playing by the rules, also the author of -- coming, up the rise of white supremacist violence in this, country what we are not succeeding in fighting it. plus, the latest on the war in ukraine, kyiv's counteroffensive is picking up around at the same time as the war is coming home to russia. also, with a republican-led house oversight committee obsessed with exposing what it calls the biden crime family, the top democrat on the committee is committing his own oversight, demanding

republicans look into exactly whose family business as benefited from being in the government. that is next on velshi. n velshi businesses need 5g solutions today. that's why they choose t-mobile for business. mlb partners with t-mobile to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. aaa relies on t-mobile's network to stay connected nationwide, so they can help get their members back on the road. and we're helping pano ai innovate, to stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. we're here today to set the record straight about dupuytren's contracture. surgery is not your only treatment option. people may think their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started. i used to wait to run my dishwasher 'til it was super full. now— i run it daily. weekdays— weekends— you might think that's wasteful, but it's not.

even half loads use 80% less water than handwashing. saving $130 on utilities. cascade. dare to dish differently. >> republican congressman james colbert may be the head of the house oversight committee, the committee's top democrat is doing some oversight of his own. congressman jamie raskin is urging -- jared kushner's firm, for documents related to investments it has received from foreign governments. in particular, he wants information about a two billion dollar investment, that kushner's from affinity accepted from the saudi government shortly after christina left his role in the trump white house, where he had influence over policy that the saudis in the middle east. in a letter to come with this, week he wrote, quote, i'm encouraged by a recent acknowledgment that what kushner did crossed at the line of ethics, and your repeated

assertions that -- high ranking u.s. official family member asked by providing money or other benefits in exchange for student action, and quote. not to be clear, james comer has been committed to investigating foreign nationals attempt to target high-ranking u.s. officials family members, it just has a different family mind. it has been more than a little focused on the dealings of hunter, biden repeatedly invoking the so-called biden crime family, ashley accusing the president without evidence of engaging in a quote influence peddling scheme, and quote. i do not remember james comer being up in arms what ivanka trump caught a flurry of -- from china while she and her father were working at the white house. let's not forget it was the trump organization that was found guilty less than a year ago of attacks filed scheme, new york attorney general is suing tunnel trump and his company, and his family --

-- on jared kushner or his firm, think again. there was the gop response, and quote. ranking member raskin's to chairman corner is nothing more than an attempt to distract from the mounting evidence of joe biden's involvement and his family influence peddling schemes. ranking member raskin is only concerned about playing biden family defense lawyer and quote. what's the back to us where we can find the mounting evidence. can find the mounting evidence can find the mounting evidence for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops. with two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain. (man) mm, hey, honey. vicks vapocool drops. looks like my to-do list grew. "paint the bathroom, give baxter a bath, get life insurance," hm.

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germany invaded poland, marking the beginning of world war ii in europe. today marks a day 556 of russia's war in ukraine. a war which led important has falsely framed as a continuation of world war ii.

on the battlefield, ukraine's second counteroffensive appears to be picking up ground after a seemingly stalling for several weeks, with the white house saying ukraine has made, quote, notable progress in the last 72 hours. in the east of the country, ukraine continues to once again make advances on bakhmut, which is now a ruinous city, ukraine and russian allied wagner forces battled over it for months in what became the bloodiest land battle in europe since world war ii. while in the southeast region of ukraine, near zaporizhzhia, the ukrainian forces have re-captured the village of brava time and are advancing on the towns of verbal of and no vote porky for, let me say that again, no vote prokupecz kieft, hefter -- vast offenses have known as the czar of kin line. that is as important as it is symbolic and poetic. the russian general surge, a surovikin, that is what the name is -- the line is named after,

ordered the construction of major defenses in the short time he was in charge of russia's forces in ukraine. he vanished shortly after yevgeny prigozhin's mutiny and march on moscow. the two gentlemen will reportedly close, and seraphin was rumored to have known about prigozhin's plans ahead of time. so often is also removed as the head of russia's air force, which i suppose is better than prigozhin's apparent fleet, dead after the plane fell out of the sky last week killing all on board. that comes after russia's attacks on the capital city of kyiv continue this week, two people were killed in a drone and missile attack would hit close to a supermarket. it increasingly appears at the theater of the war, at least the theater of attack is expanding. because ukraine continues employing a strategy of taking the war to russia. something ukrainian president hinted at back in july, saying quote, gradually, the war is returning to the territory of russia. to its symbolic centers,

military bases, and this is inevitable natural and absolutely fair process. and quote. several months this summer, drone attacks on russian soil often quite far from the ukrainian border have been a near daily occurrence with various degrees of success in causing damage. but increasingly, causing fear amongst the russian citizens. russia blames ukraine for the attacks, and keeping with its long-standing policy, ukraine denies all responsibility. although, ukrainian officials are increasingly promoting and applauding the attacks on social media and in the media. this, week just like with the counter offensive on the frontlines, those drone attacks ramped up, look at all these places. that is in russia. multiple days of major strikes including the largest attack on russian soil since the war began, six regions, you can see them all here. in one of them, scope, which is 500 miles north of ukraine, 500 miles west of moscow, close to the border with estonia and latvia, a series of drones

struck an airport, destroying multiple military transport planes. both estonia and latvia, eu members and nato members, deny any involvement in the attacks, for obvious reasons, because that would provoke more hostilities. joining me now is the former supreme allied commander of nato, admiral james -- nbc -- he is the author of multiple important books including, to risk at, all nine conflicts and the crucible of decision. thank you for being, here i appreciate your time as always. >> it is a pleasure to be with you, ali. >> i want to ask you about something you tweeted the other. day in all the time i've been covering the story, and talking about the resolve of the ukrainian people and their military, i have never thought about it this way. you tweeted, we must avoid letting our desire for perfect defeat good enough. yes, it will take time to train them, meaning ukrainian fighters on the f-16 jets, no they will not immediately be perfect. but yes, f-16s will have a

significant impact. here is a line that stood out to me. people defending their families tend to learn things very quickly. it is really the sign of what happened in ukraine. when this war started, we were all not sure that the ukraine, the untested ukrainian army was going to be able to fight off the russians that are many times their size. and yet they have. >> indeed, and i invite anybody to simply project yourself into the shoes, of the ukrainian soldier a year and a half ago. you are on the front lines, very suddenly, very unexpectedly, who is behind you? that would be your family. your children. your parents. your cities, your civilization. your language, all of that, you are defending that most precious to you. think about that, russian soldiers who are behind the russian soldier on the frontlines. well, you hit a couple of names, general surovikin, he has vanished and probably will end

up spending significant time incarcerated. yevgeny prigozhin, who exploded in a public execution. vladimir putin who just shovels truths, encourages war crimes, that's who standing behind you in this immoral war. at the end of the day, yes. it is a good couple of weeks for the ukrainians because they are succeeding in harnessing the rightness of their cause. i feel it, but importantly, they feel it. >> i want to talk philosophically about the f-16s, which, you know, the west resisted for a lot of reasons, including the fact that it allows russia to take the war -- allows ukraine to take the war to russia. there's a term our viewers will become more familiar with, they probably don't know it all that. well the expression is, attack comes. it's an acronym for -- it something else the gradients. what it allows them to hit

command and control centers where the russians are, either in eastern ukraine or in russia, talk to me philosophically about these things. there is a real risk or opportunity, depending on how you see, it that if the ukrainians get proficient with f-16s and atacms, the war will come to russia. >> let's connect those two systems, first, ali it's important to understand that the f-16 is like a swiss army knife. it can do anti air, it can attack ground targets, it can do electronic warfare. but it is not invulnerable up there in the sky. russian service to air missiles could knock down those 16th. this is where the attack comes come in. the long range over 200 miles surface to surface missiles can make the skies safer for those f-16s. so the two are really linked.

a year ago, i was listening to the arguments about hey, we don't want to provoke russia, we don't to end up a war between russia and nato. but here we, are a year into this thing, we have watched rape rooms, torture chambers, massive war crimes, we have watched the ukrainians take the drone war, as you pointed, out that is an excellent summary read you just did. 400 miles deep into russia. i think it is kind of past the point where we have to worry about providing f-16s and atacms. when we have to say to the ukrainians, is continue the uavs, that is going to be done off the public radar, the f-16s and the atacms, let's use that inside the borders of ukraine. that is a prudent middle course here. it's adding the f-16 to the atacms to help protect them. i think it's smart money, and i think that's where things are headed. >> it's always an honor to talk to.

you thank you sir, we appreciated. the former supreme allied commander of nato and nbc news chief international security and diplomacy. analyst the author of, to risk it, all nine conflicts and the crucible of decision. thanks for spending the start of your labor day weekend with. us we have more velshi just ahead, don't go anywhere. have more velshi jus ahead, don't go anywhere ahead, don't go anywhere (woman) it is high. whenever you are ready. (man) are there any snakes? (woman) nope. (man) are you sure? here we go! (vo) it's time to push your limits. (man) okay. (woman) you're doing great! (man) oh, is that a buffalo? (woman) babe, that's a cow. (vo) the all-new subaru crosstrek wilderness. adventure on the edge. (ella) fashion moves fast. setting trends is our business. we need to scale with customer demand... ...in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level.

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velshi banned book club podcast, which some of you have been asking for, this is a great week to do. that we have one of the most celebrated and prolific authors of our time joining the show. margaret atwood. her magnum opus, the handmaid's, tale is almost prescient with its topics that explores about women's bodily autonomy, the environment, autocratic regimes, theocracy's and book banning. but we don't just discuss the handmaid's tale, atwood also wrote a modern adaptation of william shakespeare's famous and often banned play, the tempest. hers is entitled, hag seed. any discussion of shakespeare is worthwhile, especially when that discussion is with margaret atwood. new episodes of the velshi banned book club podcast are available every thursday, but before, that write to us at my story at velshi.com. we want to hear from everyone, a book club does not exist or thrive without its members. so download and subscribe to velshi banned book club wherever you get your podcast. especially for this week's conversation with margaret

atwood. we will be right back. margaret atwood we will be right back. we will be right back. businesses need 5g solutions today. that's why they choose t-mobile for business. mlb partners with t-mobile to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. aaa relies on t-mobile's network to stay connected nationwide, so they can help get their members back on the road. and we're helping pano ai innovate, to stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. j.p. morgan wealth management knows it's easy to get lost in investment research. get help with j.p morgan personal advisors. hey, david! ready to get started? work with advisors who create a plan with you, and help you find the right investments. so great getting to know you, let's take a look at your new investment plan. ok, great! this should have you moving in the right direction. thanks jen. get ongoing advice; and manage your investments

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old uber driver who is dropping off a passenger when the shooter fired 11 rounds into her car. 19 year, old -- aj laguerre, a grecian graduate who is working at the discount store the shooter entered. and 29-year-old, jarred galleon, who left behind a four-year-old daughter. in the aftermath of those racially motivated murders, president joe biden did not -- labeling white supremacy, quote, the greatest terrorist threat we face in the homeland. according to the washington post, not since the civil war has an american president issued such a stark warning about the behavior and menace posed by fellow americans. last weekend's attack follows a string of other hate motivated attacks on public places. a supermarket in buffalo last, year a spa in atlanta in 2021. a walmart in el paso in 2019. a synagogue in pittsburgh. a black church in charleston in 2015. according to the center for the study of hate and extremism, a

record 1889 hate crimes were documented in 2022. the center attributes the surge to a rise in white nationalism. it should be noted, however, that numbers from the fbi are lower but according to critics, including the anti-defamation league, that is because the fbi significantly other counts hate crimes. federal law enforcement authorities are less equipped then you might think to charge domestic terrorism cases. some national security experts argue that is because we lack domestic terrorism legislation while others say we have the necessary laws on the books, they are just not being enforced against white supremacists. but in either, case whatever the reason, is part of the reason we don't have a coherent strategy for fighting domestic terrorism is politics. politics gets in the way. no one wants to reckon with the idea that extremists might be building off of their own rhetoric to use it to justify violence. in 2009, soon after the

historic election of america's first black president, the department of homeland security distributed and intelligence briefing that highlighted the growing threat of right-wing domestic extremism. this report was offered by a teen that was led by darrell johnson, a senior intelligence analyst at homeland security who also happen to be a conservative republican at the time. johnson now identifies as an independent, but the conclusion of the report was sobering. the election of a black president could provide fertile ground for the rise of right-wing radicalization. instead of heating this morning, the report was met with furious pushback. some republican leaders and conservative commentator said it was politically motivated. in response to this uproar, the head of the department of homeland security actually issued a public apology. the team behind the report was disbanded. its members were reassigned to study muslim extremism. daryl johnson, a career federal analyst of the department left

dhs shortly thereafter, and what followed was a disturbing rise in white nationalist terrorist attacks across the united states. that is according to the national consortium for the study of terrorism and responses to terrorism. just like the report, warned in 2019, a decade after that backlash about the report, and the walk back of the report, johnson lamented the american governments missed opportunity in an interview with the guardian, quote, if the message i sent out had been heeded, and people took it seriously, what we have more resources? that could have tempered the growth of what we have seen over the past ten years. but the political fiasco surrounding the report created a chilling effect in the law enforcement and intelligence community. >> johnson told the guardian that he thought the report was weaponized by a republican party that did not want to talk about right wing extremism. quote, partly because they are the ones who are arming americans. no matter how many times you can try to blame the person for carrying out the act, they still have to have access to

weapons that are meant for war. i also believe going back to their campaign strategy for the 2010 midterms, and this is what he, says there is blood on their. hands they are fanning the flames and providing the fuel, all in pursuit of an electoral victories. that was 2019. we now appear to be treading a similar path today. trying away from confronting another dangerous development that experts predict could fuel further attacks. this time, it is the normalization of the ideology that is fueling these extremists. the notion that white christian america is under threat is no longer confined to the realm as of extremists in some dark corner of the internet. it has become a narrative that is embraced by ordinary americans. jason stanley, yale professor and authors of the book, how fascism, works the politics of us and them argues that this underlying ideology finds resonance in places like ron desantis's florida. where a narrow lens of whiteness and christianity shapes the conservative views of america.

stanley writes quote, the idea that white people face a threat of replacement by non white people is behind the brutal treatment of immigrants in europe and the united states. the jacksonville shooter's ideology is recognizable in the harshness and violence towards gender fluidity and in that bans on critical race theory and black history. as has been increasingly clear in recent years, on the individual level, it also justifies murdering nonwhite people. after the break i'm joined by darryll johnson and jason stanley with more on this. l johnson and jaso stanley with more on this. stanley with more on this. until, i saw how easily it picked up my hair every time i dried it! only takes a minute. look at that! the heavy duty cloths are extra thick, for amazing trap & lock. even for his hair. wow. and for dust, i love my heavy duty duster. the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact, up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked. you'll love swiffer. or your money back!

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the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. i want to welcome to the show, home of the xfinity 10g network. jason stanley, professor of philosophy at yale university and the author of, how fascism works. the politics of us and them. i want to welcome daryl johnson, former senior analyst for the domestic terrorism at the department of homeland security. the author of hate, land the long hard look at americas

extremist past. i quoted from both of them extensively in the introduction to the segment. thank you both for being with us. i appreciate this important conversation. let me start with, you. darrell i set up your background, your history, how much you've studied this. you wrote a report we so long ago, we are still struggling with the same thing. what do you believe today to be the impediment against either reducing prosecuting or figuring out what to deal -- how to deal with domestic violent extremism in america? >> i tell, you when i wrote that reported 2009, i never anticipated this threat to last so long. i thought it would be a two term eight year, ten year, cycle. here we are, it's your 15. i think the single most impediment to solving this issue is politicians that pander to these groups and individuals.

it actually inflames them, radicalizes and mobilizes them towards violence. political candidates need to understand those consequences to their inflammatory words, their dehumanization of their opponents, and aides to stop. >> there is a term people in your line of work, use it is stochastic terrorism. the idea that you don't have to do, it you can just say it and people will pick up on this and do their own damage. which is increasingly what we see these days. >> exactly. so, one of the things that we can do is we devote resources, watch the type of language, this heated language. domestic terrorism, one of the biggest impediments that we have as analysts is navigating not only the constitutional privacy civil rights issues with these types of groups and individuals, but also the inter agency infighting. the biggest thing is these divisive polarizing political

issues that we have. here gun rights, immigration, a portion. taxes, all these things. they touch on these domestic extremist groups that make calls for violence. >> professor stanley, you made an interesting point to the other day. you say in your piece that the police departments characterization in jacksonville of the florida shooters manifestos, they use the words, quote, a disgusting ideology, and quote. you say that even talking about it that way and coors a risk. characterizing it as that, it underestimates the threat that is posed by that sort of ideology. i had to read that twice to understand. it can you tell us what you mean? why do you take exception with the police saying that it was disgusting ideology? >> because when you look, and this is following darryll johnson's comments, when you look at these manifestos by ther

conservative beliefs. and you have some of those conservative beliefs, they're not racist, they're not murderous, they're not any of these things. you know i devise an independent, but when you read the report you were a conservative. you are not targeting yourself in this. so how do you draw thatle who he mainstream conservative beliefs, maybe they don't want overregulation, whatever the case, is with this domestic violent right-wing white nationalist extremism? where is the line? we >> yeah, so i spent four years of my life as a

conservative mormon. i had no political agenda when i wrote that report. i am a gun owner, i was married, i had four kids, i was going about my life, doing my job. so basically, what is causing a lot of these extremism stuff is people continue to be fanned by these politicians and politicians are using them to get votes to win elections. so that is the biggest thing we need to focus in on. and also, these inter agency infighting that we have, these battles between agencies. that's why we domestic terrorism legislation. i support the legislation that delineates roles and responsibilities for federal agencies. there is plenty of wnot be fighg amongst ourselves on who has got what. who carry out these attacks that we were just talking about, buffalo, or jacksonville, they are often referred to as lone

wolves. so some people say that term brit misrepresents the nature and extent of the threat. tell me what you think about that. >> well, it is not loan wolves who are letting people die on the borders of our country. it is not alone wolves in europe who are letting -- allowing mass drownings of immigrants. it is not alone wolf who are shipping immigrants from state to state as if they are like pawns in a political game. it is not loan wolf who are doing the things that are increasingly what we are seeing enabled by this rhetoric by the state. it is state actions that concern me now most particularly because we are seeing not just in the united states, but other places like india, hindu nationalism is similar to our white christian nationalism. we're seeing this sort of

relationship between sheriffs in the united states and these violent militias. we are seeing -- what the january six, look at the relationship between the lone wolf's, larger militias, and some of these politicians who are successful see this in state sanctioned violence against immigrants and state sanctioned violence, frankly, against political opponents. >> this is a crucial conversation. i think we will need more time for. it i'm gonna invite you both to come back and continue this conversation. we've already text on, it but thank you for your thoughtful work. jason stanley, professor of philosophy at yale university. the author of how fascism works, the politics of us and them. and how propaganda works. david johnson is the senior analyst for the domestic -- homeland security. and the officer of hate, land a

long hard look at americas extremist. heart communism or costco? the gop insist on everything they don't like is a manifestation of karl marx. what karl marx would not actually approve of. that the twice impeached quadruple indicted ex president, another hour of velshi begins right now. good morning, it's saturday, september the 2nd. at any moment, president joe biden is set to head to florida to tour the damage caused by hurricane adalja, however, florida's governor and biden's would-be rival for the presidency, around, desantis has no plans to meet with him while he is there. biden's top rival, the former president, donald, trump has just entered his fourth not guilty plea. telling the court that he will not be appearing in person for his arraignment in fulton county, georgia, next week. as is his right. we will have much more of the twice impeached quadruple indicted ex presidents legal situation later in the hour.