by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good morning. it is september the 3rd. thank you for spending your labor day sunday morning with us. i am ali velshi. we begin today with a question we have been investigating here on velshi for several weeks. is the former president currently qualified to hold the office of president of the united states, or any elected office in the country for that matter? to start, let's go back 155 years to july 9th, 1868, when two years after passing the senate, the 14th amendment to the constitution was ratified. with it, section three which reads, no person shall be a senator or representative in congress,-elect or, or president, vice president, or hold any office, civil or military, under the united

states, or under any state, who having previously taken an oath to support the constitution of the united states, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. now, donald trump, having incited an insurrection, and having tried to overturn the results of a free and fair election, in violation of the constitution, he is now constitutionally ineligible to be president again. it seems pretty straightforward. the question is how can that be enforced? well, we rarely invoke in court, this section three of the 14th amendment has been recently used to remove someone from office. and the case actually revolved around the january 6th insurrection. in september of 2022, following a lawsuit by a group of new mexico residents, griffin, this guy right here, was ordered to be removed from his position as a terrell county commissioner by a new mexico state court judge due to his participation

in the insurrection. he was previously convicted and sentenced to 14 days in jail. okay, let's get back to trump for a second. can anyone file a lawsuit about this? the case of griffin in new mexico? yes or no? yes, technically anyone can file a lawsuit. but no, not everyone may have legal standing for the case to proceed. case in point, pun intended, in florida, one such challenge was rejected on thursday by an obama appointed federal judge who ruled that the injuries of the plaintive, that they were trying to claim, were not valid. and more importantly, quote, an individual citizen does not have standing to challenge whether another individual is qualified to hold public office. so who does have standing? for that answer, i'm gonna turn to one of the most revealed and intelligent legal minds of our time, the retired conservative federal judge, jay michael luttig, who along with a legendary law professor

laurence tribe helped bring the 14th amendment argument into the public zeitgeist, both an important piece in the atlantic, and right here on velshi two weeks ago. here's part of what judge luttig had to say. >> anyone state or federal, who is charged with listing the candidates for the president say is obligated under the constitution to make the decision himself or herself as to whether donald trump is qualified to be put on the ballot under the constitution of the united states. this is a momentous significance itself because neither congress nor congress through impeachment, nor a judicial order, nor the results of a criminal conviction are needed. >> okay, since judge luttig,

who by the way will be joining me at the top of the next hour, and professor tribe, put forth their argument, secretaries of state across the country, the officers who in most states are in charge of listing candidates on the ballots, have begun looking into this more seriously. some have already dismissed it, including arizona's democratic secretary of state adrienne fontes, who cites a previous ruling by the arizona supreme court which found in section three of the 14th amendment not enforceable. new hampshire secretary of state, republican david -- along with the attorney general of that state, currently reviewing the situation. and that follows both a lawsuit by a very long shot republican candidate for president who sued the state to keep trump off the ballot, citing the 14th amendment. and also after a prominent far-right radio host told his listeners to call the secretary of state's office demanding that trump be kept on the ballot. in michigan, the democratic secretary of state joscelyn

benson told my as msnbc colleague nicole wallace that she is discussing the matter with some of her colleagues. joining me now is michigan's democratic secretary of state jocelyn benson. she oversees michigan's elections to try to make sure they remain free and fair. she received a presidential citizens medal for defending democracy after january 6th. and she is our, certainly my go to, as far as secretary of state are concerned. you and i have had so many, many conversations over the last few years. so, when this topic came up, when we had the conversation with judge luttig, i wanted to talk to you. i want him to say how are you thinking about this because you are thinking about these things all the time. welcome back to the show. let's talk about this. >> yes, thank you, ali. i'm really glad i could be here today because this is a really important discussion. i think the arguments for disqualification are quite strong. but we also have to recognize that we are in uncharted territory here. and there are counter arguments on the other side that need to be explored. the important question, even if

you set aside the question of does this happen before or post a conviction? where is due process? what is the definition of insurrection or rebellion? what is giving aid and comfort? and who is the proper authority to make those definitions? i think the courts have a critical role to play here, certainly the u.s. supreme court. but i also recognize our role in this. and noting that michigan and i personally witnessed a lot of these attempts personally, experienced them in michigan and certainly my colleagues in georgia, and now secretary of the commonwealth in pennsylvania can say the same. so, in a way, that weighs heavily on me as well as a witness to these attempts to overturn our democracy. >> it's become a little challenging for me because everywhere i go now i carry these four indictments around with me so i can make references to them. but in two of those indictments, the jack smith general sixth indictment, and the fani willis georgia indictment, the michigan figures very, very centrally. and there were actors and

michigan who did the right thing, regardless of who they supported for president. and there were some actors who were doing some really bad things. tell me about -- for a second -- tell me about the politics of this, right? everything you do is going to fall under deep scrutiny. it has since before the 2020 election. does that play a role in how you think about this determination, this discussion? >> it is a reality. i mean, my office has been inundated with calls. my staff has been inundated with threats since this became an issue in the last several weeks. on both sides, people are doing their case. but i'm gonna proceed according to the law. i'm gonna follow the law. i'm gonna follow the constitution. and i'm gonna make sure that any decision we make is based in the law and the constitution, and on evidence and facts. that's how we need to proceed here. this can't be a political decision, and it won't. >> let me ask you about, in michigan's process for getting a presidential candidate on the ballot, i want to show our viewers a checklist that

exists. and you can tell me how much of this is actually true and how this process would actually work. the access check for presidential candidates is limited to candidates who are in the democratic and republican parties. so they have to check that. then we understand that the name must be present on the secretary of state and the party chair's list of candidates. and if the name is not president, the candidate can't petition. okay, that sounds right so far,? >> yes. and i would add we also have the ability to add candidates whose names are in the public record as being candidates for president. i will add that as well. >> so, is there such a thing on your checklist that deals with the very basic constitutional requirements to run for president, having to be a citizen, having to be born here, having to be of the age of 35? and then, possibly, because people will ask you this, having not been involved in an insurrection after having taken an oath of office, swearing fealty to the constitution. >> not explicitly in the law,

and that is something in consideration here as well. we have already, we have some active legal cases pursuing the question of who has the authority, directing me not to allow anyone on the ballot, who the constitution may disqualify. again, the final arbiter, the secretaries of state in various states, while they may make an official statement, either for or against qualification, or within the bounds of authority, the ultimate decider in this case is going to be the courts, and really, the ultimate court to resolve this will be the united states supreme court. and in that regard, we hope that decision, however it makes its way to the court, come sooner rather than later. and then i will also add the caveat that this is the primary process. the party, either party, will nominate their candidate in the convention next summer. and so, if the nomination and then prevents someone who is disqualified, there may be another round of this discussion. and then, certainly, if someone who is arguably disqualified is elected, even through that process there may be a third

round. i think we also need to buckle down and prepare for this to be an issue throughout this cycle, alongside the criminal cases that are also still playing out this cycle. >> you make a very interesting point. the provision in the constitution is about holding office. it's not about getting elected to office. >> right. and so, we are also mindful that decisions are made in this moment, in the next several months, on the primary ballot may be only the first step of this issue being played out. we also have a question of different, if a conviction comes, or if a resolution comes to these cases in the interim how that plays out. so, the important thing is, we are going to, in michigan and other states, collaborate with secretaries to have a very open, transparent discussion as we proceed according to the law. and talk to various experts, many of whom you've had on the show and others, to really understand the law and proceed in all circumstances and accordance with that, and allowing politics to not play a role in this at all. >> one of the things that was

interesting about what judge luttig and lauren strzok said to me, and judge luttig will be on in the next hour -- where the determination of the breach in the constitution and the idea that you were involved in an insurrection after having sworn an oath of office, so there's a whole lot of people to whom this doesn't apply. there are people who never sworn an oath to the constitution, but participated in an insurrection. in a reading of the constitution says they're not prevented from holding office. however, the torture determination is not just the idea that u.s. secretary of state may need to make that, it is the, on the basis of what, the impeachment, the evidence it's been provided to the public, the general sentiment that trump was behind this, a court conviction, one of these indictments. do you know yet what you're going to be looking at to be certain of whether or not donald trump or other people running for office were involved in an insurrection? >> for instance for most, it is

the procedures and authority that i have under the law. both in the primary setting and in the general elections setting. and generally, it is facts and the evidence that was both revealed or illuminated during the january 6th congressional hearings, the court cases that will be proceeding. and also, again, what happened in michigan to our voters. and michigan is unique, in amongst many states in this, and that we actually have the former president pressure officials in our state to not certify the election directly. and, you know, that is front of mind for me as well that our voters were directly in the line of fire, and their voice and their will to these attempts. so i weigh that very heavily as well, as i believe my responsibility to do so. i also way frankly the guardrails issue. this is our percentage moment, unprecedented, uncharted territory for us. how do we ensure any decision we make is not weaponized in the future to enable future

officials to block candidates from the ballots, for political reasons in that case? the precedent that we create in everything that we do over the next 18 months is also front of mind for me. >> my viewers will understand why it is i wanted so badly to speak to you about this, because you really take the time to explain the details about what's going to go in your decisions, and the whole country is going to be watching, not just the secretary of state's, but very closely you, because you've been at the front of this discussion the whole time. we really appreciate your service to the country and your time this morning. >> thank you, ali. always an honor to be on your show. and i'm always grateful for the thoughtful discussions. thanks for having me. >> thank you, michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson, who's the author of the book, secretaries of states, guardians of the democratic process. just make sure to check out the quick addition by the way of the trump indictments, so you don't have to carry them around like i do. the 91 criminal count against the former president of the u.s. which has a full complete indictment against trump, i edited the addition and wrote a forward which sets the scene, which adds important context.

it's being published on september 25th. it's available for preorder now. as i mentioned earlier the top of the hour, i will be joined by judge j. michael luttig, one of the most important legal minds of our time, who helped put forth the 14th amendment argument. plus, ohio republicans versus democracy -- having been defeated in their anti-democratic effort to change the rules to sink a popular abortion rights measure, the ohio gop is now trying to change the language on the ballot in order to trick voters. and the summer of strikes is stretching into autumn. we'll have the latest on the labor situation across the country. we are back in 60 seconds on a labor day sunday edition of velshi. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ arch. introducing j.p. morgan personal advisors. hey david. connect with an advisor to create your personalized plan. let's find the right investments for your goals okay, great. j.p. morgan wealth management. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc.

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participated in at least 230 strikes, according to data from cornell. by now, you know about the dual strikes bringing hollywood to a halt. actors and writers demanding new contracts, including safeguards against a.i., now s.a.g. is looking to improve another strike. this time against massive video game companies. those contract negotiations kicked back at the end of the month. plus, hotel workers in l.a. are walking off the job, promising that rooms are gonna stay dirty if they don't get a better deal. even resident assistance at tufts university dormitories went on strike this week. they asked for the school -- countered with 83 meals which works out if they want to eat five meals a week for the whole semester. so they are on strike too. then they unions getting their picket lines ready, more than 90% of american airlines, 26,000 flight attendants voted to authorize a strike if contract negotiations break down. a walk off over there is not imminent yet, but we'll keep you posted.

and one of america's biggest unions is ready to strike against gm, ford, and slanted. that is less than two weeks until a contract expires. all of these labor dispute, all of these fights for better contracts are what president biden said he would fight for when he was elected. so, once his administration, what's it doing for american workers? here's one thing. this week, the labor department proposed a new rule to help salaried workers who are in executive administrative work, or professional roles, take home some more money. right now, anyone making under 30 tight, $35,000 a year is eligible for overtime if they work more than 40 hours a week. the plan is to raise the minimum salary threshold to $55,000 a year. this could help 3.6 million more people make more money if they work more hours. what a concept. more good news for the jobs numbers. the u.s. created on average over 270,000 jobs a month over

the past year. in august, we just got these numbers on friday, the u.s. added another 187,000 net new jobs. and that 17,000 more jobs than economists expected. despite that, the unemployment rate ticked up to 3.8% in august. and it is still lower than what some economists consider to be full employment. now, this labor day, let's think about what american workers are going to. the jobs numbers say that the horizon is brighter. unions across the country are fighting to get there. and if you get this weekend off for a vacation, please enjoy it, because you earned it. and let's remember all of those who can't take a vacation this labor day. labor day. now— i run it daily. weekdays— weekends— you might think that's wasteful, but it's not. even half loads use 80% less water than handwashing. saving $130 on utilities. cascade. dare to dish differently. ♪ s(man) $130 on utilities. that looks really high. (woman) it is high.

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>> in ohio, state republicans are once again resorting to other men over stu prevent a popular abortion eminent from passing in the upcoming november election. polling data has consistently shown that a majority of ohioans support enshrining abortion rights with a july poll indicating 58% of likely voters favoring the proposed amendment to protect abortion rights. according to a survey by the usa today network and suffolk university. now, that level of support is enough to secure the amendments passage, come november 7th, which explains why republicans tried to alter the rules in a hastily called a special election last month, aiming to raise the approval threshold

for constitutional amendments from 50%, with which they were completely happy until now, to a higher bar of 60%. the strategy backfired when ohioans voted against that move. the proposal to raise the voting threshold, referred to as issue one, was reproduced by the republican controlled legislature, despite these same republicans having recently eliminated august elections because of historically low summer voter turnout. the effort was part of a calculated republican strategy to thwart the abortion rights amendment in november, not by changing minds and campaigning and compromising on policy, but by quietly altering voting rules in the middle of the summer when no one was paying attention. although their attempt to raise the voting threshold failed, ohio republicans are back at it again. they are once again employing manipulative tactics, this time the ohio ballot board is overhauling the summary that is used to explain the amendment to voters, and instead,

introducing language that is designed to confuse voters. the revised summary boroughs language from the antiabortion movement's playbook. for instance, it replaces the scientific fetus, which we actively all know, with the emotionally charged term, unborn baby. the term unborn baby gives the false impression that the fetus could survive outside the womb, when in reality, that is not possible until the very final stages of a full term pregnancy. but the revised language is not designed to be medically accurate. it's meant to be emotionally manipulative. they also replaced the term decision with medical treatment. that included wording falsely suggesting that the amendment would, quote, always allow an unborn child to be aborted in any stage of pregnancy. that is misleading. that misleading description taps into the fearmongering rhetoric around state abortions despite the fact that that procedure is exceedingly rare, exceedingly rare.

fewer than 1% of abortions in the u.s. occur after 21 weeks, and in almost all cases, they involve heartbreaking situations such as severe fetal anomalies or medical conditions threatening the woman's life, according to the kaiser family foundation. lauren global, co-chair of the ohio and for reproductive rights, slammed the revised summary as propaganda in an interview with the associated press. her organization is suing state republicans for using politicized deceptive language on the upcoming ballot measure. the lawsuit alleges that the ohio ballot board is abusing its authority to undermine an amendment that they oppose. they attention to the upcoming ohio vote on abortion rights. because it's gonna serve as a litmus test in the upcoming election cycle as activists nationwide rally to codify or restore abortion rights in their own states. constitutional amendments protecting reproductive rights have already prevailed in several other states, including red states, kentucky and

montana, along with swing states michigan. ohio appears to be boys to join this expanding roster of states when given the option, voters decide on abortion rights. with more on this, i'm joined by david pepper, former chairman of the ohio democratic party. he is the author, saving democracy, a users manual for every american. david, you and i talked about this particular issue before it happened. and your big message back then was, ohioans get out there, and vote. that's it, they did. they did what they did in kansas, in kentucky, in montana, and california, michigan, vermont, wisconsin, supreme court election, and then again in ohio. interestingly, interesting phenomenon, everywhere we see, whether abortion rights activists, or antiabortion do it, the results seem to be the same. >> they sure do. i mean, it was an amazing turnout. we saw areas not just where we are used to -- democrats are used to winning. but we saw red areas, republican counties all over the state vote no.

both because we are concerned about abortion access which crosses party lines, but also because of what you described. it was not a legal election. it was a blatant attack on democracy. they saw this really impressive cross party coalition come together in august. but as i always warn, on the other side, when the extremists in this case, when they are in a court, they don't stop fighting. they actually double down on illegality, use of power. and that's what happened with this ballot medication you described so well. when they are in court, they don't quit. even when they know they lost an election, they go right back to their old tricks of, again, having an election that was a violation of the code, and in this case simply changing the language of what citizens will see on the ballot this november. >> with the concern you had when we last talked about this before the election in august, it was that people won't see it. they won't be paying as much attention.

it's not a great time in the year. everybody knows that, august is a dumb time govern election, if your goal is turnout. of course, their goal was not turn out. given what you saw happen in august, does that make you feel more confident of what will happen in november when people are actually paying attention? >> it does. the turnout in august was not really in august, it was almost a midterm level turnout. but i also think, never take anything for granted. they will do anything they can, in this case, change language, who knows what else. they clearly have shown a tendency to break the law. this is the most corrupt state house in america. the speaker said -- this is a group of people that just breaks the law. and in this case, they have used their power to do that. and the worry is if people see a win in august, they take a breath of relief, and think okay, they got it. and all the sudden, the yes vote that should win in november loses. i take nothing for granted. i know the folks in the campaign running this, don't take that for granted. and if you all of a sudden did,

when you saw them in the ballot, it's a reminder they will never stop, basically breaking the rules to try and lock in things that they know are not popular, they know people don't support out there. and that's a lesson for the whole country, just don't do this anywhere they can. >> you wrote a book about this, as governments as laboratories for autocracy. and it's an important book because we talk a lot about autocracy and the failures of democracy in this country. but we think about it as a national thing. we think about as trump and his enablers. and you are warning, your warning to everybody, we see it play out in tennessee, texas, we see it play out in alabama, is that look at the states and understand what they are doing. is there a parallel book to yours that needs to be within about the fact that you might be laboratories of autocracy, but people are not stupid, voters are not stupid. they will come out when push. >> actually, i wrote one called saving democracy and you, and

you mention that. it's not just about the laboratories of autocracy. but this book says, and we've seen it likely in kansas, wisconsin, in ohio if you weeks ago, and i hope again in november, we saw every single election losing in a swing state last november. when people figure out that these laws, tactics to attack democracy, and they rally, they start to figure out we are winning. but the problem in the recent past before this recent winning streak has been we've seen the attack on democracy as a federal issue. and the reason i wrote the first and the second book is the frontline of their attack on democracy is not the federal government. it is the states and the state houses because state houses can be gerrymandered. they can run almost every extreme issue they want through the state houses. but when you gerrymander a state, you can do all that with no accountability. mitch mcconnell told lindsey graham, don't forget, don't bring the national abortion ban to the u.s. senate, because he knows it's a losing issue. but if they can bring them to

states, gerrymandered states, vote for incredibly unpopular things, not just abortion bans, but other things. they can vote for that in a gerrymandered state and think they can get away with this. their frontline are these states. and their frontline are these districts where we don't need to often run in. so we have to have a different game plan that fights for democracy everywhere, starting in the state house level. that's how we go on offense in these places. >> you told me something i didn't know, by the way. that is that in a lot of these places, where there are super majorities in state houses, a whole lot of those people run on unopposed. i cannot get my head around the idea that someone is a claim to office in 2023. david, you and i have much more talking to do over the next couple of weeks. we appreciate it. and my viewers have a lot more reading to do because they make up a writes a lot about this very, very important issue. he's a former chairman of the ohio democratic party and the author of several books, including saving democracy, a users manual for every

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>> religious icons played integral roles in many cultures. in soviet russia, icons were hung not only in church but in the homes of eastern orthodox christians. it was a tradition to hang icons of saints or other religious figures and what was known as the beautiful or the shining corner of one's home.

these corners typically faced east by the way towards the rising sun because it was believed that christ would return to earth from that direction. these corners were considered the spiritual heart of the home. now, in the 19 twenties during the soviet era, the government required homeowners to replace their religious icons with images of vladimir lenin, the first and founding head of the government of the soviet union. what was once gods corner became lennon's corner. lennon was considered by many to be a relevant revolutionary thinker and there was. he attracted a cult like following that was desire to glorify linen as a god-like figure and icon of religious stature. in his death, the lennon cult of personality spread far and wide. lennon museum sprung, of institutions of all kinds adopted his name. cities were named after him. leningrad is a great example. to this day, lenin's final resting place is a mausoleum in the middle of the red square in moscow. his body has been on public display since his death in

1924. for better or for worse, lenin it's often regarded as one of the century's most significant political leaders, and such engaging leaders tend to inspire unhealthy devotion, elevating them to prophetic fingers in the eyes of their followers, it starts to get particularly concerning when the leaders who are being idealized are morally bankrupt. when their ideas are a danger to the greater good. historically, many fascists and authoritarian leaders have inspired cult of personality. joseph goebbels, and infamous nazi propaganda administer. in his diaries, he wrote, quote, i love him, i bow to the greater man, to the political genius, the man he's worshipping, adolf hitler. such idealization shield leaders from criticism and accountability. and in many cases, it turns bad people into martyrs. the term martyr was first introduced in the early days of christiana to, apply to those who chose death over we noun seeing their fate. and in modern times, islamic extremists have adopted the

term to justify violence committed by suicide attackers. and today, the term martyr has evolved into a turn of phrase for someone who feels that they have been politically persecuted, a victim of the justice system, someone who believes they are dying on the cross for their devoted following. donald trump, the 45th president of the u.s., is facing 91 criminal charges, all of which he claims are the results of a political witch hunt at the hands of his enemies, the democrats. he has cast himself as the martyr, trying and succeeding to convince his loyal supporters, to see themselves in him. this has been an evolution for trump, by the way, who used to just be a bombastic fabulist. but that change in march, just before he was indicted for the first time where he told a crowd of supporters in waco, texas, a site at which another fake martyr david koresh died. quote, i am your retribution, in. quote retribution for what, remains unclear. in june, after being charged in the mar-a-lago documents case, trump said, quote, i am being

indicted for you, and quote. his proclamation shifted once more in august on the day of his third indictment, quote, i am being arrested for you. he has invented a narrative of sacrifice, a martyr for the maga faithful. he turned his mugshot into a symbol of his apparent political persecution, adorned on t-shirts, coffee mugs, and posters. there are real dangers and much of them, in lining and anti-democratic corrupt figure, you can keep their philosophies alive long after they themselves are no longer. but do not confuse this as a reason not to hold donald trump accountable. failing to try trump for the crimes he's accused of amounts to appeasement. and it signals there is no penalty for attempting to destroy the democracy. to trump's followers, he is already a martyr. maga is their religion and his lines are their gospel. their gospel support

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i didn't think that it could develop to something else like i am your retribution, and then something else about how i got arrested for you, how i got indicted for you, but it is. and you steadied history. you studied other leaders who have done this, generally speaking, not democratic leaders, tell me how this goes and why? >> yes, it is, if you look at the history, it is quite predictable, all the things. it's quite extraordinary to see this unfolding in america. sometimes, it unfolds as a way of people getting to become dictators, like mussolini at other times. it's happening once they get power. you know, the martyrdom theme used in this language is extremely important because these are violent and corrupt people who are trying to get into power. it allows, using this language, allows them to get a buy in

from religious institutions and people who have faith, who are very important in legitimizing them. so, the irony is the people who succeed at this are often the most criminal people. so, we have the two bookends of mussolini who had been a socialist with an atheist. he hated the church. and he was a serial rapist and criminal. and he was the one who got the vatican to do a deal with him. and then we have trump who is the most price person possible who got both orthodox jews and evangelicals to say he was the man who was put in office by the will of god to save the nation. >> so, two different columns here, right, michael? ruth points out this one, the manipulation of icons and religion, and jesus like things. and then, there's this other thing where he said, i am the only one standing between them and you. i have been arrested for you. i have been indicted for you. what are you talking about? how do these people who support

him identify with that because they haven't been indicted? they haven't been charged with something. it's not like the 30% of the gop that supports donald trump, or 50%, whatever it is, criminals. they haven't committed a crime. they haven't been indictment. do people fall fall for this nonsense? >> you are right, ali. i'm glad to be here with you and ruth. you know, i have to tell you when you were talking about donald trump in the same sentence as the word evolution, there are some people who think that donald trump defies the scientific theory of evolution. but that is neither here or there. the point i would make is this. the biggest martyrdom story in american history is jefferson davis, in the confederacy. the confederate army was defeated in 1865. jefferson davis, the president of the confederacy, he was put in prison. it was let loose. he escaped, went to another country. but the point is that jefferson

davis in the 18 70s, while reconstruction was still on, he said in public, this is what he said, he said our confederacy was not defeated. we were cheated of our victory. we had our victory stolen. who does that sound like? that turned into what's now called the lost cause. they made the confederacy into this noble cause of which they were cheated. and my point is that if jefferson davis of the confederacy in the 1870s, if they were living in the modern age of social media and radical right-wing websites, and radical right-wing cable tv networks, no names mentioned, he would have been very, it would've been much easier for him to disseminate that narrative, spread jim crow laws, night after night, social media after social media, to say that if you don't put up jim crow

laws, but shackles back on black people, this is going to be something that's going to be acres to not only the south, but to america. it might have been another civil war. donald trump knows nothing about history. he doesn't read it. and i would speculate let some people around him do and they know the story i've just told. >> we've got a few threads to pull on here. i want to take a quick break. when we come back, we will continue to discuss this with michael beschloss and ruth ben-ghiat. stay with us. with us (woman) it is high. whenever you are ready. (man) are there any snakes? (woman) nope. (man) are you sure? here we go! (vo) it's time to push your limits. (man) okay. (woman) you're doing great! (man) oh, is that a buffalo? (woman) babe, that's a cow. (vo) the all-new subaru crosstrek wilderness. adventure on the edge. get help reaching your goals with j.p. morgan wealth plan,

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>> we are continuing our discussion on the dangers of political martyrdom with michael beschloss and ruth ben-ghiat. i am fascinated because you both have so many examples, both from american history and the history elsewhere, about people who have used martyrdom, and that sort of imagery to work. ruth ben-ghiat, in hungary,

victor orban has sort of re-cast his election as a -- you know, he morphed this into a martyrdom type of thing. and he is a big influence on american right wing politics. >> yes, so, here you have, again, the duality of the person who's gonna save the nation, and in this case, save white christian civilization. that's the ideological blank of viktor orban's autocracy. and in fact, orban was just interviewed by tucker carlson. and he was propping up trump, saying that trump is the only one who could save the nation, and have trump in office, putin would never have invaded ukraine. and this is of course what trump says as well. but, you know, the victim, the

martyr and hero duality is really important because it marks these people off as special. and it's very important to keeping their leader calls afloat. that it has to be only them, i, alone, can fix it. trump told us early on. so these things are used in many contexts. but they are very emotionally compelling to people, which is why, you could say they fall for it, you could say they identify with it, maybe it gives them something emotionally that they don't find elsewhere. >> what is interesting to me, michael, okay, i'm gonna take ruth at her word that people, it compels people. i am curious that even people who represent themselves as the new wing of the republican party, new blood, i'm talking about vivek ramaswamy, and i'm gonna be talking about reverend al sharpton who had a long interview with him last night. i want to play one piece of that, because reverend al sharpton who ran for president, once asked vivek ramaswamy about donald trump. here is how that went. >> if you became president,

would you pardon donald trump for any of the crimes that he's been indicted for, or if he is convicted? >> on the current facts that we have, he is one of many people that i have identified as someone i would pardon, because i do not think that this sets a good precedent for our country, where a party in power uses force to indict its political opponents in the middle of an election -- >> on the current facts that he has, i don't know if you've got the same facts that i do, these are the four indictments of trump, i'm not a lawyer, not a jury. these cases have not been tried. they're going to be tried. but vivek ramaswamy says on the current fact that he has, he thinks this is an unfair prosecution. and he would pardon donald trump. he has said so on day one. so, this is weird. this is where, the trump stuff we can all try and get our heads around, but there are enablers. vivek ramaswamy is 38 years

old. and he is talking this kind of stuff. >> and as you and ruth no, this is how autocrats come to power, because people who are at the fringe of their political movement, are terrified of them, they cover their power. that happened with mussolini. mussolini would not have come to power if there were not a lot of opportunistic scared people in italy who said, you know, he can come to power, he will burn himself out. and then, we will take control. and the other thing is that vivek ramaswamy, who knows who this guy is. like, he has no record. it doesn't have a history of leadership, political, business, or otherwise. who knows what connections he's got to, shadowy groups, maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. but this is downright dangerous. and the point that i would make as a result of this is be very careful of someone who buys into this narrative. vivek ramaswamy is telling us out loud and that if elected, it would not only pardon trump

but it would take trump in has his in-house mentor and advisor. that's one of the most dangerous things of all. final point -- i just want to talk about the confederacy. may i say one word -- >> go ahead. >> the confederates were basically saying in the 1870s, we will protect you from giving power to black people in the united states. it is the same message in this movement now. this is something deep and evil in american history. >> so there has to be another, or some group against which you are working -- >> absolutely. >> ruth, i want to play a few things that trump has said over the last few months. i want to focus on the last thing he says, to michael's point, about the other ring here. let's listen to this. >> in 2016, i declared, i am your voice. today, i add, i am your aurier, i am your justice. and for those who have been

wronged and betrayed, i am your retribution. >> in the end, they're not coming after me, they're coming after you. and i'm just standing in their way, here i am, i'm standing in their way. i always will be. >> every time, the radical left democrats, marxists, communists, fascists indict me, i consider a great, great, great badge of honor. i do, i really do. because i am being indicted for you. i am being indicted for you. >> the thing i want to focus on there is he slipped it in, democrats, marxists, communists, fascists, right? in case you want clear who the other is, let me tell you. >> through, through. >> that's exactly it. >> it is, he has to set himself up as the bearer of freedom, the only bearer of freedom. and without him, they will be the abyss, the apocalypse. and he is the only thing standing in the way until the

collapse. and he said this on january 6th, if you don't fight, then there won't be a country anymore. that's the mentality. >> wonderful, thank you for helping us. michael beschloss, nbc news presidential historian, author of several captivating books, including presidents of war. ruth ben-ghiat is a professor of history at nyu, and author of strongmen, from mussolini to the president. so it had, by the way, i'm joined by one of the most with you, important, and intelligent legal minds of our time, judge j. michael luttig, the retired conservative federal judge would not only help save democracy, but helped put forth the argument that donald trump is currently disqualified from holding office because of the 14th amendment. another hour of velshi begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good morning to you. it is september the 3rd. thank you for spending your labor day sunday morning with us. i am ali velshi. we begin today with a question we have been investigating here on velshi for several weeks.

is