the problem is, it doesn't appear he has the vote, right? there are a number of moderate republicans who are expressing concern with voting to open an impeachment inquiry. don bacon, mike lawler, both of whom represent districts president biden won back in 2020, how quickly he'll be able to open it, mccarthy, will depend on the vote count which i'm sure he's whipping behind. >> congressional reporter for the hill michael schnell, thank you. thanks for getting up "way too early." "morning joe" starts right now. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, september 6th. we've got a lot to get to this morning. the longest prison sentence yet for someone involved in the capitol is tack goes to a man who wasn't even there that day. we'll have expert legal analysis on that punishment as well as

the latest developments in fulton county county, the election interference case there in georgia, plus, senate minority leader mitch mcconnell addresses concerns about his health following two unsettling incidents where he froze up in front of reporters. and republican presidential candidate chris christie is now calling out fellow gop challenger ron desantis as the florida governor is slipping in the polls. we'll have his comments for you straight ahead along with joe, willie and me, we have the hosts of "way too early," white house bureau chief jonathan lemire, white house editor for politico sam stein and former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official, chuck rosenberg. willie, sorry, joe. >> yeah, i mean, let's get to baseball first. lemire, you didn't stay up to see that atrocity last night, did you at the trop.

>> the sox had tied it when i called it a day and checked the score this morning and threw my phone across the room. >> geez. >> tough loss. sam, what about you? >> i did watch it. the sox were atrocious. they left bases loaded, no outs, didn't score and, of course, the bullpen imploded again. i will say the trop, the field is an atrocity. baseball should not be played there. there shouldn't be a catwalk in a baseball stadium that interferes with baseballs. this is ridiculous. time to move the franchise from tampa. >> okay. there you go. well. >> i should have just gone to willie. >> hey, willie, let me ask you a question before we get to the senate. have you seen any of "the bear"? >> it's so funny you say that. christine a started it this week. we're almost done with it.

>> it's really good. >> i've got to say, so john heilemann for some reason, he got into this really early. i think last summer. >> he's a food guy. >> the first season dropped, and he watched it all in two days, which sounds pretty crazy. we started watching it after i was going to go interview jamie lee curtis who is just extraordinary. >> she's amazing. i'm obsessed. >> in the series. but we took our time because we usually fly through series really quickly and took our time, and took our time and as a family we watched the first season and then we found out that jack after watching the first season watched the entire second season in a single night. so we're still -- we're trying

to be disciplined about this. i've got -- i've got to confess to you, mika, i got an episode ahead of you. >> christina did that to me. >> we talk about a lot of shows, great tv shows here. >> okay. >> second season, willie, when you get to five, six and seven, you tell me after if you've seen three better back-to-back-to-back shows in all of television. i just haven't. i mean, five ends with -- >> oh, i haven't seen them. >> you saw five. you saw five. >> i'm just -- can't believe you did that. you broke the code. >> that was the episode where you explain for 45 minutes while ending with "can't hardly wait" by the replacements is one of

the most moving moments in my life and had the family at christmas on 6 and 7, richie, it's about richie. 7 is about richie and i'm telling you, just tears in my eyes. it's just amazing, so anyway, we've gone on a little bit too long. >> yes, we have. >> you love "the bear." mika, watch 7 tonight. it's called "forks" and then we'll be -- >> okay. >> then there will be a realignment in the force. call me up, i will tell you how to get hulu. it's like the 87 times before i told you how to get hulu and you watch 7, "forks," and the music, willie, it's like they're talking to me. this is like -- this is -- you know, i never really -- the john hughes films, i loved john hughes, but i was never that cool -- that ferris bueller or

all those other people were too cool but these bear people, they're incredible. like you said, like you said, some of the best acting -- >> it is. >> -- i've seen anywhere. >> i'm always late to series so i get browbeat, you got to watch "the bear." by the time we get done with our long days and go to bed too early, i just put on the yankee game and that's it. finally we sat down earlier this week. the episodes are quick, 28 minutes, 29 minutes, so you can whip right through it. i'm still in the first season, almost finished with that looking forward to the second based on your pitch, but and it's jeremy alan white is incredible but all the way down the cast, i mean to the pastry chef, all of them, it's such a great series, so this is the case where the hype is real about "the bear." can't recommend it highly enough. >> just amazing and now for something completely different,

tv's willie geiss. >> do you have a segue? there's nothing here? i'll just dive right in. no, no, don't do it. >> there's so many bad things, there's so many bad things happening in the world that it's nice to be able to get a little bit of distraction from the bad news of the day. you know, willie, the japanese, they have a saying, and -- go ahead with the news. >> okay and we'll pick up the edit here. here we go. let's dive into the news here. the former leader of the proud boys sentenced to 22 years in prison. that's the longest sentence yet stemming from the january 6th attack on the capitol. four other proud boys were handed long prison terms last week after they were convicted in may of using violence to try to keep former president trump in power. nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian has details. >> what are we here for? to stop the steal.

>> reporter: a central figure in the attack on the u.s. capitol has been handed the stiffest prison sentence so far, a judge ruled enrique tarrio one-time leader of the far right proud boys will spend 22 years behind bars. while not nis physically present he directed others and celebrated afterward saying in a text message, make no mistake, we did this. prosecutors had sought 33 years for tarrio but judge timmy kelly decided that was too long and sentenced four other proud boys last week to lengthy prison terms, but far less than prosecutors had asked for. some of them seen here at the capitol. >> american citizens are storming the capitol. taking it back right now. there's millions of people out here. this is [ bleep ] crazy. >> this is such history. whoo. >> tarrio and three others were convicted in may of seditious conspiracy. their goal to orchestrate violence to keep president trump in office and that the proud boys were behind every major breach of the capitol during the

attack. afterwards on cnn, tarrio ridiculed members of congress who huddled in fear as rioters breached the building. >> i'm not going to cry about a group of people that don't care about their constituents. >> reporter: telling the judge, i am not a political zealot and saying to the men and women of law enforcement who answered the call that day, i'm sorry. >> not a political zealot and, yet, mocking elected members of congress. we are a democracy. fearing for their lives that day. cops getting the hell beaten out of them. these proud boys have been sentenced anywhere from like 10 to 22 years and there's a pattern, they get before the judge, some of them cry. some of them say they're really sorry. they feel really bad and then they get sentenced and then they go on infowars and basically say

i'd do it again, trump won, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all b.s. that didn't happen with tarrio. he did sound a bit contrite yesterday. got his 22 years, left with a "v" for victory sign as he was leaving the courthouse, but we haven't heard the end of all of these people and they're all banking on one thing, donald trump's victory because if donald trump gets elected, these people that the united states government -- that a jury of their peers actually have convicted of seditious conspiracy against the united states for rioting at the capitol, for causing ultimately the death of four cops for beating the hell out of cops, these are the very people that donald trump has promised that he's going to pardon. and that's what they're banking on. >> some of them, joe, have said that out loud. the previous highest sentence of 18 years or 17 years, excuse me, for another member of the proud

boys, he wept in court, he apologized and tried to appear contrite then when he received his sentence called in to infowars where he used to work and said, i know in my heart that donald trump will pardon me so that's exactly what they are a counting on. they have long sentences but believe if donald trump is re-elected, they're going to be taken care of because they were carrying out his orders on that day in many ways, so, chuck, i'm curious as you look at this slate of sentences, joe biggs who called in to infowars with that 17-year sentence, 22 years for enrique tarrio not there in the capitol but a hotel in baltimore calling the shots. surprised by the length of the sentence either way? >> not really, willie. when you look at what some of his underlings got, it makes sense to me that tarrio would get more and the most. he was the leader of the proud boys and the proud boys were among the leaders at the breach. and, by the way, it points out a

couple of things, number one, you don't have to be physically present if you're a member of a conspiracy, in this case, a seditious conspiracy acting through force and violence to overthrow the government of the united states and to halt the electoral vote and if you take a leader shimon role you ought to be expected to be treated like a leader at sentencing. as a federal prosecutor, i have attended a lot of sentencings and heard a lot of contrition, some of it true, some false, either way, he was sentenced for what he did as the leader of the powder boys, by the way, 22 years in the federal system means that he'll serve at least 85% of that, so about 19 years, parole has been abolished in the federal system. he might get credit for good time but 22 years is a very significant sentence, and well deserved. >> so, john, prosecutors say the fact that tarrio was not there at the capitol, quote, does nothing to detract from the severity of his conduct because

he was a general rather than a soldier which raises interesting questions about others facing justice down the road perhaps all the way up to the top. you don't have to be on the grounds of the capitol to commit a crime. >> i think that's an interesting point. he may be a general but who is above him and we certainly can go through the list and chain of command stops with donald trump sitting in the oval office. the bunker, if you will, as he presides over what happened that day and certainly enrique tarrio became the face of this despite being removed and not at the capitol, does a lot of media and was being held responsible for what happened. there were proud boys who had been in communication with members of trump's circle and it's the proud boys who donald trump told to stand back and stand by at that general election debate so the links are there, so, chuck, let me pose the question willie put to me, you know, is this sort of a template, if we go down the road and end up with and we don't know when but go down the road and get a conviction of donald

trump for this, for the federal election interference case which is less about january 6th itself and more about the events that led to it, could we see something similar in terms of a sentence for donald trump? >> well, so not to be a lawyer here, jonathan, but you have to look to the counts of conviction, right? you're not sentenced for other people's criminal conduct. you're sentenced for your own criminal conduct so if mr. trump is tried and convicted, at sentencing the judge would look at what he had been convicted of and the federal sentencing guidelines that attend that count or those counts of conviction. but, i do think it's telling, right, leaders, whether they're physically present or not are treated differently and you saw that with mr. tarrio, so broadly speaking, you know, if mr. trump is the one that put all of this into motion and arguably he did, and he's convicted for related conduct although he hasn't been charged with seditious conspiracy, i imagine a federal

judge at sentencing will look at what other people received in terms of punishment and that they will try to slot mr. trump in accordingly, but, again, each case on its own set of facts, each count of conviction with its own attendant federal sentencing guideline. >> so we'll turn to georgia now where every co-defendant in the fulton county election interference case has waved their arraignment appearance and pleaded got guilty. originally scheduled to be arraigned today. there will be a separate hearing this afternoon to consider the requests of two defendants, kenneth chesebro and sidney powell who are looking to sever their cases from the rest. a judge says he will ask the state to estimate how long a trial for the whole group could take and how many witnesses they may call, both defendants have also requested a speedy trial

moving up their potential court dates, only chesebro has confirmed his trial on october 23rd. several other co-defendants are also requesting a separate trial. john eastman's attorneys argue they won't have enough time to prepare for an october trial date. david shafer's team is looking to break off from the speedy trial group. meanwhile, chesebro's lawyers are looking to dismiss his rico charges altogether citing the supremacy clause of the constitution. they argue most of the charges against him apply to federal law and not georgia state law, so, chuck rosenberg, first of all, the effort to sever, does that -- does that make the case against trump easier or harder to prosecute in georgia, and any potential these people could flip, or what do you see happening here? >> yeah, so, taking a step back,

mika, and these are all good questions, the georgia case is cumbersome and that's to put it sort of mildly. they charged 19 people under state rico provisions, so a big sprawling complex cumbersome case, and now you can see what happens when different defendants ask for and receive and want different things. contrast that with what jack smith did in the federal case he brought in washington, d.c. related to the events of january 6th. there you see a one defendant four-count streamlined case so not surprisingly in georgia you see a bunch of people sort of splitting off in different directions asking for different things. i prefer that streamlined approach that the special counsel took. whether or not pieces of this case get severed, whether they get tried separately, i think a couple of things are clear, you're not going to see 19 trials of 19 individuals, you're probably not going to see one

trial of 19 individuals. you're going to see some people move to have their cases transferred to federal court. you're going to see some people to your point, mika, perhaps plead guilty and cooperate, but there is a disadvantage, i think, in bringing a case this big and this complex and this sprawling. what i learned as a prosecutor was, you know, focus on the most important things and the most important people, keep it simple, keep it straightforward, streamlined is always better. that's my bias. that's how i grew up as a prosecutor. that's what i continue to believe, and i think that's one of the problems you are now seeing play out in georgia. >> what a massive problem is the opposite of streamlined and chances are very good that this case will not be heard by a jury until after the election. the 2032 election. sam stein, we have a new poll out by cnn. maybe not 2032, but it's going

to be a while. probably not. have a new cnn poll out that says basically the same thing as "the wall street journal" poll, which is that republicans are absolutely thrilled that they have a chance to vote for a candidate who stole nuclear secrets, a candidate who a new york judge called a rapist and said that the jury in effect called him a rapist, a candidate that stole secret war plans for an invasion of iran, a candidate who stole assessments of america's military and where it's the weakest, a candidate who showed classified material after he was out of the white house and admitted that he wasn't supposed to be showing this classified material and that it was classified, that he couldn't declassify it because he was no longer president of the united states, a president who is under trial for illegal payments to a porn star, hush money payment foss a porn star and the republican party of 2023

says, yeah, give me more of that. >> yeah, that's right. that's where we are. kind of funny, we were anticipating the first republican primary debate thinking that it might actually shift some of the ground for this election. fact of the matter is, it changed nothing. these indictments, these court cases, trump's legal troubles are way more definitive, way more determinative in the course of the primary than anything else and ways that defy logic, the more trouble he gets in, the more that the legal system is stacked up against him, the more the republican primary voters rally to his side and those poll numbers that you had up show a real split here. the republican voting electorate seems to find these cases not a big deal. they are very dismissive of the charges and don't think it disqualifies trump at all. the larger voting electorate

finds them with maybe the exception of the hush money case to be disqualifying and that in theory creates a real problem for the republican party in about four or five months' time because everything we know about the primary is that it's a glide path for trump. no incentive for him to participate in any of the forthcoming debates after what happened with the first one. all he has to do, he is barely campaigning. all he has to do is stay put and win with the current voting electorate that he has then the republican party's got a real quagmire on its hands. >> i'm going to come back to this. right now we're following a new development in a criminal case that has gripped much of the country this past march. lawyers for alex murdaugh, the former south carolina attorney convicted of killing his wife and son are seeking a new trial. murdaugh's legal team argues they have uncovered evidence of jury tampering and are calling

for an investigation. nbc news correspondent kathy park has the details. >> reporter: a surprising motion filed by alex murdaugh's defense attorneys accuses a county clerk of court becky hill of jury tampering and now the legal team is demanding a new trial and federal investigation. >> the clerk of court had improper private communications with the jurors. >> reporter: hill did not respond to nbc news' request for comment. murdaugh's attorneys claim hill had frequent private conversations with a jury foreperson, told jurors not to be fooled by murdaugh's testimony, asked jurors for their opinions about murdaugh's guilt or innocence. pressured them to reach a quick verdict and invented a story about a facebook post to remove a juror she believed leaned in favor of the defense. murdaugh's attorney saying alex still maintains his innocence. >> what has he shared with you? >> i can't talk about attorney/client privilege information. i can tell you that when i shared with him the affidavits,

he's a lawyer, he was astonished. he was shaking. he was in disbelief. >> reporter: months after the trial ended hill published a tell all book even writing about visiting the murder scene. some of us either from the courthouse, law enforcement, or jury at moselle had an epiphany and shared our thoughts with our eyes. murdaugh's attorneys claim hill betrayed her oath of office for money and fame. >> she's trying to make money off it. she's telling the book. >> reporter: earlier the jury found murdaugh guilty of killing his wife maggie and son paul. the judge handing down two life sentences. >> what's the likelihood of a new trial? >> these motions are always difficult to win and the defendant has to show not only that they just discovered this evidence but it's evidence that would probably affect the outcome of a new trial. >> so, chuck, when i saw the headline i rolled my eyes and said, oh, my god, here they come again.

but then when i actually read the contents, if you have a clerk of court saying don't be fooled by the defendant's testimony, talk about that and all the other things you heard. if they can be verified does he have a chance for a new trial? >> yeah, if those statements can be verified, yes, quite possibly. see, here's the problem. juries are sacrosanct. nobody gets to talk to jurors about the case. jurors can't even talk about the case among themselves until all the evidence has been submitted and of this's been instructed on the law by the judge. if there's some outside influence on the jury and on its deliberations and particularly if it's coming from a member of the court family, in this case allegedly from the clerk of court, that's a problem, so what happens here? it's possible the judge is going to question individual jurors. judges don't like to do that.

typically you give great deference to the findings of a jury and you presume that they followed the law and kt aed appropriately but these affidavits may prompt the judge to question individual jurors and if it turns out the clerk of court in fact approached them or said certain things or suggested certain things 0 as she wrote communicated with her eyes, whatever the heck that means, it could be the basis for the judge granting to mr. murdaugh a new trial. it doesn't mean he's going to walk free. but is it a headache for the government if they have to retry him? absolutely and could there be a different outcome at a second trial, of course. so, you know, much remains to be written about this case. much remains to be learned. these are serious accusations and i imagine the judge will take it seriously. >> from the proud boys to the murdaugh trial, everything in between, chuck rosenberg, truly, you can do it all. thanks. a massive manhunt continues in pennsylvania for a prisoner on the run. still this morning.

a school district in chester county, pennsylvania, is shut down again today, six days after a convicted killer escaped from a nearby prison and now authorities are expanding their search. nbc news correspondent george solis has the latest. >> reporter: authorities confirm these new images show what danelo cavalcante looks like after a week on the run. >> the photos confirm he has not changed his appearance but has obtained a backpack, a duffel sling-type pack and hooded sweatshirt. >> reporter: the pictures captured from a trail camera on the property of the botanical garden five miles from the prison where he escaped from last thursday, police say the five foot cavalcante has been able to elude capture potentially moving beyond initial police lines in part because he is within a heavily wooded area. >> obviously i wish we would have been able to capture him without him getting through that perimeter but it is also not shocking. dark, a large area.

>> reporter: authorities now expanding the search area which had been focused on a two-mile radius outside the prison where there had been multiple sightings including one captured on doorbell camera. >> the only thing i had was a picture frame to defend myself. >> reporter: brian was in his home and while upstairs he saw the escaped inmate on the ground floor and flicked light switches on and off. >> he flipped the light switch back a few times which was the real panic moment and said, he's here in the house. >> reporter: the ongoing search prompting schools to shut down. >> how ready are you for this to be over? >> yesterday. >> reporter: residents have been receiving calls like this one obtained by nbc news alerting them to stay vigilant with cavalcante on the loose. >> if you see him do not approach and call 911 immediately. he is convicted of homicide and presumed extremely dangerous. >> reporter: last month comfort was sentenced to life in prison for the brutal stabbing murder of his ex-girlfriend.

police broadcasting audio recordings from high above. cavalcante's own mother urging him to turn himself in. >> he is a bad guy. he needs to be in custody and we're determined to capture him. >> nbc's george solis with that. mitch mcconnell's condition after an attending physician put out a letter about his health. the united states issues a new warning to north korea amid an expected meeting between kim jong-un and vladimir putin later this month. what the biden administration is saying about a possible arms deal. and this comes as secretary of state blinken makes an unannounced trip to kyiv. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel is there and joins us live with details about that visit. you're watching "morning joe."

we'll be right back. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

♪ ♪ wake up, gotta go! only pay for what you need. c'mon, c'mon. -gracie, c'mon. let's go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully.

i need it cool at night. you trying to ice me out of the bed? baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only $999. plus free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. shop now only at sleep number.

only at vanguard you're more than just an investor you're an owner. that means your priorities are ours too. our retirement tools and advice can help you leave a legacy for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. (vo) in three seconds, janice will win a speedboat. can help you leave a legacy for the ones you love. (woman) bingo! i'm moving to the lake. gotta sell the house. (vo) ooh! that's a lot of work. (woman) ooh! (vo) don't worry. skip the hassels

and sell directly to opendoor. (woman) bingo. (vo) get your competitive offer at opendoor dot com. since the citi custom cash® card automatically adjusts to earn me more cash back in my top eligible category... suddenly, life's feeling a little more automatic... oooooohhh... automatic sashimi! earn cash back that automatically adjusts to how you spend with the citi custom cash® card. antony blinken is in kyiv meeting with key ukrainian officials including president zelenskyy. moments ago, blinken wrapped up a meeting with the country's ministry of foreign affairs reaffirming america's commitment to helping ukraine. >> i'm here first and foremost to demonstrate our ongoing and determined support for ukraine as it deals with this aggression.

we've seen good progress in the counteroffensive. we want to make sure that ukraine has what it needs, not only to succeed in the counteroffensive, but as what it 23450ids for the long term to make sure it has a strong defense capacity, so that in the future aggressions like this don't happen again. >> today's visit marks blinken's fourth to ukraine since the war began. according to senior state department officials, he is expected to announce more than $1 billion in new funding for ukraine. joining us live from kyiv nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard, good to see you, so, tell us more about what secretary blinken is doing today and how important this show of support for ukraine is coming from the united states. >> reporter: so, good morning, and it's good to be back in ukraine and i think according to state department officials who have been briefing reporters, this trip is really designed to show u.s. support to connect

with the ukrainian government as it is now three months into the offensive. one senior u.s. official described it as a going back to school moment, the summer is over. the u.s. is getting back to work, congress is getting back into session. the u.n. general assembly meeting is taking place in new york in just a couple of weeks. president zelenskyy is likely to attend that, as well. so it is a time to show support, a time to get on the same page, and to bring this war back front and center to the american public at a time when the american people haven't been focusing as much on this conflict over the summer and over the last several months as the offensive has been going on. a time to coordinate and reig rate support going into the fall. >> richard, what is the true sense on the ground there in ukraine of how this counteroffensive as you say three months in, much discussed, much anticipated counteroffensive, there's been

some frustration expressed at the slow pace of things to be expected in a long ground war like this but how is it going from the view of officials there in ukraine? >> it's been incredibly difficult, and i think that anyone who watches wars for a long time understands that they're not linear. they come in phases and this phase of the war is extraordinarily difficult, because it is the ukrainians who are not defending themselves when this war began. russia under vladimir putin launched an invasion, tried to take the capital, tried to capture kyiv and then lost and then the ukrainians were very effective in chasing down those russian troops driving them back to the border and we saw dramatic advances from the ukrainians as they were attacking retreating trust troops. now the russians are dug in and they're dug in along a 600-mile front line. they have three layers of

defenses, there are dragon's teeth, land mines and fighting right close up against the russian border so it is very difficult for the ukrainians to break through these fortified positions. and the land mines according to ukrainian officials, we're talking about millions of land mines, millions of individual explosive devices that cover an area roughly the size of florida. so you're sending ukrainian troops in relatively small groups, platoon size to try to punch a hole through these incredibly fortified positions and the ukrainians have been doing this and they've been experiencing very heavy losses on both sides according to some u.s. estimates. we're talking now about 500,000 killed or injured on both sides, roughly 300,000 russian killed or injured and 200,000 ukrainian killed or injured. many of those happening during this offensive. >> richard, i'm curious, has there been any talk about some

of the reporting about the relationship, the strange relationship between the american president, the ukrainian president about him being so naive before the war started, refusing to listen to americans saying you'll be invaded then after being accused by biden of being an ingrate and warned that he was offending western leaders? is there any backdrop there? have you heard any blowback from any ukrainian officials? >> reporter: so, i know what you're talking about. i know that is something that both sides are very sensitive about. i don't want -- last year i interviewed president zelenskyy and one of the points he wanted to make and wanted to make sure that we included and came across in our interview was that how appreciative he is to president biden personally. how he doesn't take this u.s. support for granted.

that this is something that is an american commitment but is also a commitment from this administration. so publicly they absolutely don't want to highlight any kind of frustration or personal dissatisfaction at things that have been going ahead but generally speaking, i think what we saw today from the visit by the secretary of state when blinken came, they gave each other a hug and pat on the back. i think in general the relations between this administration and the ukrainian government is quite warm. what they don't also talk about can their deep concerns, what would happen if donald trump won the election. that would be a very different kind of relationship so whatever problems or misunderstandings they may have had in the past, between zelenskyy and biden, it is nothing compared to their concerns about what could happen if trump were to win. >> nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel, thank you very much for your reporting and insight this

morning. so, amid the ongoing war in ukraine, the biden administration is warning north korea against providing russia with military support. at a briefing yesterday, white house national security adviser jake sullivan said discussions about a potential arms deal between moscow and pyongyang are advancing. >> what i can say is this, providing weapons to russia for use on the battlefield to attack grain silos and the heating infrastructure of major cities as we head into winter, to try to conquer territory that belongs to another sovereign nation, this is not going to reflect well on north korea and they will pay a price for this in the international community. >> that new warning comes amid speculation north korean leader kim jong-un may travel to russia this month for a meeting with russian president vladimir

putin. we'll be following that and coming up on "morning joe" with donald trump's mounting legal woes, why have republicans stuck so closely by him? steve rattner thinks he knows the answer. he's standing by with new data and, of course -- >> the wall. >> charts. "morning joe" will be right back. you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (psst psst) ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good.

this is a bombas performance sock. for such a small item it performs big in so many ways. big on comfort. big on durability. big on breathability. bombas gives you big comfort for all your athletic pursuits.

your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire (vo) in three seconds, pam will decide... (pam) mati'm moving closer to theon. grandkids! wait. i got to sell the house! (vo) don't wait, just sell directly to opendoor. easy as pie. (pam) piece of cake. (vo) whichever. get your competitve offer at opendoor.com. ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand.

i may be known for my legendary football career, but truth is, i love a bunch of sports. the #1 pharmacist recommended the only trouble is knowing where to find them. that's why i got xfinity. so, i can easily find and watch whatever sport i'm into all in one place without missing a thing. even if it's football, australian football, or football football. in a word—it's fitz-credible. i got to trademark that one. this season, eligible xfinity rewards members can get up to $100 off nfl sunday ticket from youtube. sign up for xfinity rewards now.

oh, my goodness. look at that beautiful sunrise capture the over new york city. 6:45 in the morning on a wednesday. former president donald trump continues to dominate the republican primary field. we've been showing you the new polls all week despite four indictments against him and the campaigning much less he is than his republican rivals. joining us steve rattner with some data on one theory behind trump's seemingly unbreakable support. steve, good morning. so, we'll start with your first chart. decades of ideological sorting

may have brought us here. >> yes, willie, i think one theory about why republicans are sticking so closely to trump is an idea of tribalism and "the wall street journal" had an interesting analysis of this. what's been happening among party members in various parties over the last, several decades this, is a long run phenomenon but if you go back to the late 1970s, you can see that only about 30% of republicans identified themselves as conservative and almost 20% of democrats identified themselves as conservative. and then if you fast forward over those decades you can see what's happened and we all i think intuitively thought this is where we are now and maybe not where we were then but now 60% of republicans call themselves conservative and only about 5% of democrats call themselves conservatives. when you talk -- sorry, everything i just said is about liberals. when you talk about conservatives, you see a similar

trend. you can see that back in the 1970s, less than 50% of republicans considered themselves conservative. today over 70% do. and the same thing, the reverse is happening with democrat, almost 0% considered themselves conservative back then and today that number is down to just 10% so you can see that basically on an ideological basis americans have kind of gone into their corners. >> yeah, you know, another really surprising development and we can't put this down to trump. it's something i noticed even in my races back in the 1990s. republicans were supposed to win well to do suburban sort of country club types and democrats are supposed to win working class voters. i noticed in our cross tabs and looking at the districts after we won that i did extremely well among -- in the blue collar, in the blue collar areas. and what we're seeing now is a

continuation of that sorting pretty dramatically now where republicans are still making gains among working class voters, but they're losing an awful lot of suburban voters and the breakdown seems to come, steve, more -- i mean, more than race, more than income, more than anything on education. as far as what's the last year of their educational status, high school grads, college grads, post grads and, boy, there is a real sorting there, isn't there? >> yeah, joe, we talked about ideological sorting. let 5e talk about educational sorting and all talk a lot about how noncollege educated whites have moved toward trump. there's a lot of truth to that. there's actually a longer run phenomenon. let's start with whites with college degrees and you can see as you would have imagined back in 1990, 55% of whites with college degrees identified themselves as republicans and

only about 40% of democrats identified themselves with college degrees as -- as democrats. and so then you can see the percentage of people with college -- whites with college degrees identified as democrats goes up and the perjury of republicans with college degrees goes down and so we've had this flip. you can see here, it did happen a little bit faster during the trump period when whites with college degrees moved more to democrats and away from republicans and then you can see that if you look at whites without college degrees, so-called working class whites woo he talk a lot about they were surprisingly evenly divided between the two parties until about six or seven or eight years ago and then you started to have this shift that we've all talked so much about where whites without college degrees moved into the republican party and out of the democratic party. >> that really shows up in

support for donald trump in many every poll we look at. your third chart and get to the bernal that somewhere along the way our political leaders started to tell us that the other side wasn't just wrong but that it was evil, thatter enemies and shows up here as well. >> one consequence as people have moved into their corners, they moved further away from each other and become more hostile to each other and these numbers are actually really incredibly dramatic and actually incredibly depressing when you think about it. so, again, if you go back to the early 1990s, you can see that members of both parties, most of them did not view the other party unfavorably, only a small percentage viewed the other party unfavorably. 20% to 30% for democrat, about 10% for republicans. and then you can see this extraordinary, extraordinary climb up here to where we are now between 50% and 60% of both parties view the other side extremely unfavorably and so this is a lot of the hostility then if you look at some other kinds of questions, are you --

is the other party close-minded? is it dishonest? is it unintelligent. amoral, lazy, you would find significant increases over this time period on both sides in terms of how they view the other party. so this is part of why i think we're in this period of unbelievable partisan hostility and also why as they move into their corners each party tends to protect its own and in this case, donald trump. >> by the way, let's look at partisan animosity and go through the years there, steve. let's zoom in on the years. you look, 1994, democrats, the animosity doubles, nearly doubles, that's when gingrich and people like me came to congress and controlled the house of republicans in 40 years, went down a little in '98 then impeachments ticking up, george w. bush, the iraq war in

2003 continues to spike up, 2006, you had hurricane katrina. had the iraq war melting down, that continued. goes down a little bit at the beginning of barack obama's term, but then just keeps going up. >> yeah, you can see the obama impact here and then, of course, here you can see the trump years and a huge jump in animosity between the two parties and so, yeah, joe, you've identified a lot of the key drivers of this over a long period of time. >> look at the obama years, it's really those obama years from 2009 to early 2017, not really any more dramatic than the spikes that we see on -- in fact, it goes down at some point in the late '90s and starts going up really, yeah, so, yeah,

it's just -- it seems like this teddy balkind steady climb for conservatives and their animosity, of course, democrats spiking pretty high during the bush years. >> yeah, look, it's on both sides, as you can see. the lines are very close but, again, as people have moved into their corners they tend to be unbelievably hostile to the other side and, again, some of these personal qualities to call the other side close-minded, dishonest, unintelligent, lazy, immoral, they're pretty strong words for a substantial percentage of each party to think about the other side. >> yeah, no doubt about it. steve rattner at the big board. is that what we call it, the big board, the green monster, what do we call it, willie? >> that's the southwest wall. southwest wall. >> the southwest wall. hey, okay, so, steve rattner at the southwest wall, as always, thanks so much, steve. greatly appreciate it. >> thanks. you know, sam stein, best

description i've heard for why people stick with donald trump makes no sense but you can apply it if you look at those charts. people on the democratic side as well, in many cases. trump hates the people that they hate. >> yeah. >> so, when the people that they hate attack donald trump, well, that makes them like donald trump even more. it's just, again, it's all about tribalism and as we saw by those numbers, the tribalism has been growing in both parties since the 1990s. >> yeah, well, i mean i think we can all understand and empathize with the early '90s scarborough bump in animosity towards republicans, makes a lot of sense. >> my fault. >> you showed up on the scene. that's the most understandable part of the rattner charts. everything else i think we have to suffer for explanations but i

don't think it's ideological, right? if you look at trump squarely on terms of ideology, this guy supports protecting social security, protecting medicare, he's warned against restrictive abortion bans. he's for high tariffs, he's anti-trade. he is not your traditional ideological conservative, so the ideological sorting that rattner was pointing out, yes, i get it, they identify as conservative, and that identification is getting stronger, but on the substance i don't think it's consistent. what i think is really happen something what you're talking about which is sort of cultural tribal politics. he goes after the people that you don't like and that's what we're seeing now in the republican primary. the main sort of bread and butter of the desantis candidacy is he's going to stick it to liberals. it's not really about ideology and i think that's the great sorting that is happening with our politics right now.

that and we're living in closed off ecosystems where we're only talking to people who agree with our viewpoints so i think those are two big factor. >> closed off media worlds which really has been going since the 1990s. talk about more of this, mika, also, of course, when you say more republicans are more conservative than ever, republicans who are more conservative than ever, they're really not. it's, again, prieblism. they may identify themselves as conservatives as cultural markers but you actually look at the ideological issues, you look at the debt, the size of government, you look at the expansion of power of authoritarian type figures and bizarre positionsen on russia and attacking the united states military, on attacking law enforcement personnel and the fbi, et cetera, et cetera, they are not conservative, but they identify themselves -- it's just like be calling yourself an

evangelical for millions and millions of americans who don't go to church, it's a cultural marker so more on this at the top of the hour. >> absolutely, sam stein, thank you very much and still ahead on "morning joe," the latest in the fulton county case. will two more defendants have their cases severed from the rest of the defendants? later, one of the so-called tennessee three who faced expulsion from the tennessee state house makes a big announcement. that is coming up next on "morning joe." 99% of people ov. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time.

think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

♪ get it with gurus. cargurus.

look, the chinese are now -- now the russians and the saudis are coming together to keep the cuts in production down so that russian prices for oil can stay

higher. all to supply them with money for the war, anderson, and, look, this is the naivete of the donald trump/ron desantis/vivek ramaswamy approach to foreign policy. they think they'll talk to putin and they'll convince him to get away. putin is spending his time talking to kim jong-un and president xi of china and has no interest until we show him that the juice is not worth the squeeze, that he needs to stop with what he's doing to a free country, the atrocities there, the 20,000 plus children who have been kidnapped from their parents. this is stuff that the united states has to stand up against and when i'm president we will. >> i think roosevelt said that at yalta, the juice is not worth the squeeze. maybe not. i don't know but chris christie with good point there is. >> he's right. >> some of the other gop members in the republican field. some of them are just not

contemptible, just stupid. their views of foreign policy, you can tell they've had no experience. just like donald trump had no experience and he made the mistake that all weak rookies make who don't know history thinking that his, quote, winning personality can win over people like kim jong-un and vladimir putin and president xi, wrong, wrong, and wrong. they all got worse under donald trump and we're all having to deal with them right now. i just wanted to go back really quickly, willie, to the ideological sorting and you look at those lines and we just have to look at media also. you wonder about the ideological sorting. they started to go up in the early 1990s. that's when rush limbaugh first broke out and, by the way, i don't need people to go, oh, you're turning limbaugh into this or that. no, i was there.

i saw -- when i was campaigning everybody listened to limbaugh. i had limbaugh on in my car driving around. everybody -- everybody, he was everywhere in the republican party, and he had a massive impact just sort of this infotainment that got more and more pointed and more and more ideologically boxed off from the rest of the world and then you had, of course, in the mid to late '90s, cable news coming and primetime on cable news networks becoming more and more ideologically driven, so you had sorting there, ideological sorting there so now you could listen to what you wanted to listen to this reinforce all your views on radio then go home at night and watch it on television and then, of course, by the late '90s people were really getting more on the

internet, so further sorting there, so you could go online and hear about how the other side was evil and you were right and then finally, willie, social media pretty much finished it off. i would suggest we look at a lot of outside factors, we should look at the media. we should look at ourselves, we should look at the world that was created starting in the early 1990s and see this sorting, where people now go to chinese religious cults, it's gotten so extreme, you have people who support donald trump getting their news from chinese religious cults and because the chinese religious cults are saying bad things about the other side, they're believing that chinese religious cults over "the wall street journal." rupert murdoch's "wall street journal," that's how bizarre things have gotten in 2023.

but it started in the early 1990s with this sorting in the media. >> without question, and rush limbaugh and fox news which kind of grew up together, rush limbaugh was really, as you say, instrumental in this were a reaction to what a lot of people in this country viewed as a left leaning bent to the media and they would look at the news and say, what about us? that's not the way we feel. that's not the way we see the world and started as that reaction and now as you say, you can go an entire day without hearing another version of the story of the news, what's going on, in many cases i would argue without hearing the facts of the news. >> right. >> depending on what radio show, tv show, podcast, whatever it is, it is just reinforcement and donny deutsch joins us at the table and, donny, that is what sells, just telling the audience what it wants to hear, that is what sells whether ratings or clicks or anything else. >> i think that was a very insightful kind of look down memory lane as far as how we've

gotten here to this divided world. the one point that i think you skipped over was 2007 when the smartphone came aboard and this made it carry wherever you go anywhere any time. the other point, the fact this they've done studies and people where they get their news they don't remember afterwards where. there's no distinguishing between a chinese crazy right wing site and "the wall street journal." as each generation comes up, we at least had something else. this is all they know and i actually got into a heated argument with a friend of mine who is a republican who sees the posts i make and things i talk about and says, why are you even bothering doing it. you're only talking to the people you talk to and nobody else is listening. it was kind of like he was bringing up a depressing point. if we look at our audience, i won't get booked on fox. they will not have me so it's

just -- i think that's a good thing probably, for the world, but we're all in our echo chambers and this is the media landscape for the future. it's only going to get worse. >> i disagree with you strongly. i think that -- i think it's our responsibility, not only here but it's the responsibility of everybody watching at home to try to figure out how to break down those wall. >> agreed. >> how to reach out and not just preach to the choir. i'm going to do something right now, donny, that we just don't say on television, but, you know, our numbers, we were the number one show, i guess in august, is this right, alex? we were the number one show in the morning on all of cable news, all of cable news, more than espn, more than -- i don't know, home garden network, usa, whatever, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. i mean, that doesn't just happen in a vacuum.

it happens because people are coming, they hear you and me talk about not only donald trump and the problems with donald trump, they hear is talking about how joe biden screwed up afghanistan, how he needs to get serious with the southern border. how we're sick and tired of watching city, a lot of cities but not all of them run by liberal d.a.s descend into crime and madness, of course, you have got republican cities in florida that are actually much worse than new york city. so, people actually do turn. it's harder than it used to be but they do turn and they watch shows, willie, where you can get both sides. the people are still sorted but, manage, it is depressing to think that we're just breeching to the choir. i'm not interested in preaching to the choir and when i start thinking i'm only preaching to the choir, i will quit and, you

know, and do something else, but, willie, i do want to underline a point. when fox news came on in 1996 there was a good reason fox news came on in 1996. that's because 50% of the country didn't want the people who all went to ivy league school, i'm sorry, it's the truth and who were all left of center at abc, cbs, nbc, "the new york times" and "the washington post" telling them what the world looked like. they wanted a little more balanced view of the world. that's where that fair and balanced deal came from and i will say, i noticed coming to msnbc in the early 2000s, now over 20 years ago i noticed that there was more than understanding because fox had come in, they did well in the market. the news people were going, wait

a second, are we getting all of the story right? are we seeing the other side? so, i think it started as something positive. obviously there's been real problems and still things even after they got socked for almost a billion dollars that are just sickening that i see on the airwaves but i know there are a lot of good people over there who were working hard. but there's still going to be sorting and gravity is returning. people are paying the consequences for lying on the air about other people. rudy giuliani, i believe, by the end will be bankrupt because all of the lies that he spread on tv, but it's gotten so extreme again. when i have educated friends of mine all over the country trying to give me information from chinese religious cults, i'm like, dude, we jumped the shark

long ago. that's when it gets scary to me. >> yeah, i agree and you and i have talked about this a lot. yes, there is a big responsibility from the media outlet to not tell lie, hopefully that's self-evident but not always the case but from the viewer, from people you and i and, donny, you know who know better, who will still come at that dinner party, donny, and say, trump won the election. >> right. >> you go, no, he didn't. you're a smart guy. >> i needed you at the dinner party, by the way. you got to start coming to these things. >> you can handle yourself. >> i don't really do the hamptons, donny. can you have dinner party like somewhere else? >> nothing after 5:00. >> it has to be at 4 or 4:30. how about ribs and sweet tea? >> you got it, brother. >> joe, it's like the conversations we've had when we were in the fall of 2020, smart people who i know love and respect saying why aren't you guys covering the italian

satellite, which i then had to go look up and there was a defense contractor at a satellite in italy changing votes in the voting machine, whatever it is and you go, wow, like at some level you warrant to believe that stuff because i know you're smarter than that and i know you can find the truth but you don't want to know it, i guess, for whatever your reason is. >> that's why at this point i don't -- you know, i actually tried to explain and reason through with a lot of people, friends of mine over the past several years, they'll go, what about the suitcase, those two black ladies that stole those votes and i go, what are you talking about? and then i check it out. they'd say, here's "the wall street journal" story that says that is he a lie. here's the fox news story that says that's a lie. here's -- i'll find other right of center outlets that say it's all a lie and they'll go, yeah, but what about the italian dude and i go, okay, here's the story

and it's all -- it's like you're at the fair and playing whac-a-mole. they have a thousand conspiracy theories and they know they are lies. will et me just say i always get into a debate at a dinner party. they know they're lies. they know the facebook posts they're sending around are lies. they're doing it first of all to get people like donny upset when he's -- he's got a pink sports jacket on like at most of these dinners so you understand why they want to get him upset. you want a few shots so they want to get people like donny upset. >> is that pink? >> and secondly they just like reinforcing, you know, their beliefs. i mean, jonathan lemire, we need to get you in here. i don't think you go to the hamptons but we need to get you involved here. because you see it too when you're out on the campaign trail. you've been out on the campaign

trail for years. people just again want to believe what they want to believe and let me tell you something, nobody wants to hear this, you need to hear it, let those with ears hear. during the bush administration i could not walk up the upper west side to get a cup of coffee without seeing pictures of george w. bush dressed as hitler on every freaking corner and at one point you can check the polls, over half the democratic party in 2005 thought 9/11 was an inside job. that upsets you? it shouldn't upset you any more than me telling you that donald trump lost the election should upset you. i'm just saying, yes, it's much worse with donald trump.

american democracy is on the line. the party leaders have joined in on the conspiracies and the lie. all of that is true. but we have a much bigger problem with this sorting and we have to -- as bobby kennedy always did, we've got to question initial assumptions, we've got to challenge ourselves and we've got to fight back with the truth, because more than an election is on the line in 2024. american democracy is on the line, and we've got to get it right. >> joe, there's no question of that. i mean, we hear every four years this is the most important election of our lifetime. this one actually is, i think, by most measures and you're right, being on the campaign trail, you see this polarization, something that's been part of the american politics for awhile, really accelerated in the 1990s through the bush years, of course, then through the obama years and i think it's not a coincidence

that a man like donald trump followed the nation's first black president into office, a man whose political career started on the backs of a racist life of birtherism. there is a reaction to that and we've become that much more tribal. in my book it gets into how both parties and people across this country exist among their fellow travelers and exist in their own silos, it's easy to do that because of social media and because you can find a talk show host that agrees with your point of view and you don't even have to interact really with someone who doesn't agree with everything you say and molly jong-fast is here from "vanity fair." i want to bring you in here. this is one of the detyping problems with our politics. it gave birth to this extremism that trump is taking advantage of and stoked those grievances and see it on the campaign trail. the people who love him, their love of him is who they are, it's the identity, the trump flag, the trump tattoo and watches everything he says, this is who they are, and that fever is not breaking any time soon.

>> yeah, i mean, i don't think that trumpy base is coming back. i think it's a pretty small section of the population now but it's getting sort of more and more hardened and harder and harder to talk to. look, the key thing is saying the truth, again and again and again and we need republican leaders to take down the temperature. to say that violence is not good. to say you may disagree with someone but they're not evil. this can be easily solved by a republican leader saying this is not okay. we don't talk about people we disagree with politically like this. i mean, this is -- they've really, really have done as much as possible not to get involved in repudiating this kind of violent rhetoric and they should. >> so, joining the conversation along with us is white house correspondent for politico and co-author of "the play book," eugene daniels. what's your take? molly says it's easily solved by republican leaders but we know they're not going to do anything.

i mean, are we still expecting them to have some sort of revelation that they're backing a guy whose entire candidacy is based on a lie? >> yeah, i think we've thought and i know molly is not saying this that there was going to be a revolution in 2016, 2020 and 2022 and every time, you know, that has not been the case, it's lucy with the football over and over for a lot of us that on television have these kind of conversations, because so much of this is about power, right, i think what a lot of republicans and a lot of republicans in leadership saw in 2016 was that the things that they were told not to do actually ended up giving them the presidency, right, in 2012 after the autopsy that said, you know, we need to open the tent, we need to be less racist, we need to figure out ways to make people think that we are more welcoming of others. and they didn't do that and so

now what they know is that there is a strong base of support for folks who do what donald trump does, right? lies about others, who lies about elections, who villainizes and demonizes at times especially people of color. we saw that in georgia with those two black women that joe was talking about. these are things deeply embedded within the public party, and you see in the primaries some of these folks try tock get that rot out of the party, but there's not enough as molly was saying the leadership of the republican party is worried about winning elections at this point and focused on that, and at this point the way that they believe to win those elections is by leaning into that polarization and partisanship, because it's not just about whether or not this person disagrees with me, it is about is that person a good person? am i a good person because i dislike that person? it's so deeply embedded in us.

whether or not it's easy to change within the republican party, i don't know how the country change, much larger issue as joe was talking about. >> so, molly, your latest piece for "vanity fair" is entitled, "can joe biden ride boring to re-election?" and you write in part, this, i have come around to the 46th president, impressed with the sheer amount of progressive legislation the administration has championed from f-16 to climate to prescription drugs, but a lot of people haven't come around to the president who has struggled with donald trump-level approval ratings despite seeming to have pulled off a postpandemic soft landing for the economy with strong job growth, cooling inflation and fading recession chatter. yet, this financial marvel is not reflected in biden's poll numbers. biden world's biggest problem is likely also its superpower, its

boringness. the problem for team biden is that its superpower, its ability to slide under the radar while getting a lot done for the american people may also be its achilles' heel holding back the administration from getting the credit it deserves, and possibly re-election for president biden. you know, molly, i feel like democrats need to take -- they need to grow an attitude. biden's their guy. there's no one else. this is their president. he is accomplished a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k. he is also leading nato and the world in a strong direction against authoritarianauthoritar. i don't know how much more he needs to do to get democrats unbelievably, who, name one democratic president in the past that you could brag on as much as joe biden at this point?

when you look at that interview with hannity and the governor of california, and he is just absolutely outdebating hannity on biden's accomplishments, he has an attitude about it, we are winning. this president has won for us. i want to hear more democrats doing a better job instead of gnashing their teeth and squeezing their hands together about his age. this is their guy. >> exactly. i have to tell you this weekend i was so shocked to see no reporting about this prescription drug negotiation. one of the biggest things, i mean, we have had president after president try to negotiate the pricing of prescription drugs, here's biden administration ten drugs, they're negotiating, pharma is so mad, it is one of the few times in american history where the swamp is losing, right?

they are losing and actually the government is working for people and these are drugs that are like $500, $600, $700 a month and they will be down to the price of insulin for people with medicare at $35. this will change lives and instead we're reading about how ron desantis didn't want to hang out with joe biden in florida. ron desantis isn't even in the -- he's not even going to be the nominee very likely. >> yeah, willie, so there's the side that mika said talking about a, b, c, d, e, f, g, august the things joe biden has accomplished, and i will say i think he's accomplished more things if you look at his legislation, bipartisan legislation, his foreign policy in asia, what he's doing to push back russia, i think he's done more than any president in a very long time. but let me read to you what joe klein wrote in his substack

column yesterday and, by the way, i hear this a lot more from democrats off the record, so, mika, sorry, but this is what joe klein said. it's sad to watch him now past the sell by date and it seems creaky, contrived, this pitch is an apt metaphor. old joe was out on labor day touting his economic record shouting jobs while the public was moaning prices and then there are the things the president won't talk about, immigration, education, fentanyl, trump, hunter, he is running as a void. he isn't trump. that may be enough to win, but i'm sensing or maybe it's just me feeling this a growing frustration among democrats, a growing desire for energy. biden and this is tough, joe klein writes, -- >> oh, my god. >> don't say oh, my god.

you hear that from democrats all the time. >> that's what i was saying, democrats need to grow an attitude. >> biden, joe klein says, willie, finally, biden is a ghost of what the country needs right now and a lot of democrats, willie, are saying, in fact, most democrats, let's be honest, are saying, in panic mode american democracy is on the line. do we really want to just cross our fingers and hope for the best? that's what they're saying. everybody discuss. >> no, democrats -- some of us are saying on our show but in private the president of the united states does look and feel old. that's true. the question is what's the alternative? what's your backup plan? what are you going to do if it's not joe biden? that's unclear to me and, by the way, as the white house would point out he already beat donald trump once. there's no reason he couldn't do it again. donny, in that poll this week

that has donald trump up 46 points on ron desantis and in which 73% of americans say biden is too old as we talk about this long list of achievements including that news last week that was announced here actually about prescription drugs, that the americans say that trump by 11 points has a better record of accomplishment than joe biden. think about that for a minute and by eight points he has a better vision for the future than joe biden as all he does is talk about an election that happened three years ago. >> yeah, that was the thing that jumped out at me. on the economy, on immigration, on issues, donald trump on issues and all we talk about cult of personality but i just wonder if there is a blurring in there in that because of his personality that somehow that translates this kind of like screw everything, everything sucks, you suck, that somehow that umbrella becomes issues. look, there was something that you guys said in that lead-up and i kind of want to bridge the

gap a little between joe and mika is not donald trump. you know, that is unfortunately that is i think going to be -- if i'm running the campaign is the fear of the end of democracy. is the fear of a woman's right to choose, of the fear of basically who we are ending and just make it quiet competence, boring to molly's point, boring, yes, but versus the chaos, versus the uncertainty, the fear of where donald trump could take us unfettered in the next term. that's what we got. that's what we got. we do not have that fire and brimstone leader. it's not who he is and play to the authenticity of who he is which is an accomplished, seasoned, well, well, well, well-documented success and that's what we got, guys. and it's scary. i'm not saying i'm not scared. i'm not saying that "wall street journal" poll didn't freak me out. i am freaked out. i got to tell you but the democrats have got to get behind

who we have at this point and make it about the fear of donald trump. >> right, well, "the wall street journal" poll is not an outlier because a cnn poll is lined up with it and, jonathan lemire, what i was reading was from joe klein about joe biden not joe scarborough about joe biden. we've talked at length about the fact he's accomplished a great number of things, there is a growing frustration among democrats and the fear that they believe for good reason that american democracy is on the line if donald trump is elected a second time. there's a fear of just, you know, the whole holding your breath, crossing your fingers, hoping things will turn out for the best but willie brings up a great point. a point that is so piercing that there was an awesome "saturday night live" live skit about it last halloween. if not biden, who?

like, who do the democrats have, like, he was on stage with 15 progressives throughout 2020. they were talking about returning america to busing. people hated busing in 1974. people of color hated busing in 19 -- but the democrats went so far left up on the debate stage that joe biden ended up winning and he won because people of color in south carolina and a lot of moderate democrats voted for him. the question is, who in the democratic party stepped in that void since 2020? i can't think of that person. >> there is a sense among democrat, real optimism about the bench going forward, 2028 and beyond with some young governors and some rising stars across the country. but what happened in 2020 is the party solidified about one goal, beat donald trump, who could do

it and the answer was joe biden. was he the most exciting candidate at the time, no. but he was the right candidate because he won. and no one else has stepped up. joe biden is the incumbent president, democrats privately and publicly worry about his age but he is running again and hearing from the white house and the president did this at his labor day event a more direct contrast to trump. they won't talk about the legal issues surrounding the former president and made that clear. but they're going to talk about trump's record and his vision for the future which donald trump himself -- >> can i stop you right there, jonathan? i understand like the political niceties of not doing that, because somebody on infowars may accuse you of politicizing it but donald trump would be talking about it every day and if there is a void, coming from the white house about a guy stealing nuclear secrets about a guy stealing war plans, showing them to his campaign managers

and saying, this, i'm not supposed to be showing you this, if he's not filling that void, i'm talking about joe biden and the democrats, then donald trump has the stage. i understand what they're thinking. i think, though, they need to reassess that. is there anybody in the white house saying, come on, this guy you're running against has been accused and found by a jury of his peers, a grand jury, who they've indicted him for stealing nuclear secrets. it's okay to talk about it on the campaign trail. >> a person very close to the president said the argument they'd all love to make is vote for our guy. the other guy is going to jail but they won't -- the president himself doesn't want to do that because of bright lines he wants to put between the white house and doj and still an open investigation into him and his son. i think other democrats will step into that void probably more than likely next year and make this case more explicitly

but eugene daniels, on the subject of democrats worries you talked to jim messina who knows a thing or two about getting presidents re-elected. what did he have to say? >> the last democratic campaign manager would got a democratic president re-elected, right? he has this deck that he is sending out to folks and got a look at it, 22 pages of basically telling democrats to chill. he's telling you, donny to chill. he lays out this compelling and data driven argument, not about feelings. he looks alt a lot of data out there and in his mind, joe biden is in a better place than a lot of folks think, right? he talks about the misery index, where you have inflation and unemployment and what that means but talks about he told us in 2011 these were some of the worries that folks had, you shouldn't go out and talk about

the economy and your successes on the economy because people weren't feeling it but you have to fill that void that joe is talking about but this one on the economy, and i think what he largely said is that, you know, democrats are bedwetters. they're worried about things all the time. one he said because thinking about the time when joe was in congress, and republicans were winning over and over and over again and they felt shut out of national politics as democrats, and then in 2016 being shocked by hillary so they're always scared, democrats, that the floor is going to fall out from under them and so you're always going to hear democrats being concerned and complaining and doubting this president who has at times risen above all the things people have said he is going to be able to do and defying expectations objectively over and over throughout the presidency so to have people take a look at the deck but also playbook this morning where he lays out this argument that

everything is going to be okay for democrats but he's not -- he doesn't have rose-colored glasses on either. he knows that donald trump could win and any republican could win because things are so close nowadays. >> poly, you hear supporters of the current president say, this is the man who beat donald trump once, prevent the him from a second term in 2020 and since then the economy has gotten stronger and donald trump has been indicted four times. they sort of like where they're sitting right now but is it your sense at some point they will have to take on the criminal indictments around his opponent? >> well, i just want to say one thing about the age thing because that was a real worry and i think if you had a joe biden running against a ron desantis who is 44 years old, you could really make a case, but, you know, joe biden is, you know, compared not to the almighty, he will be running likely against donald trump and donald trump is three years younger than he is, right? he had covid. he was hospitalized. he has four indictments, he has

a busy schedule filled with being a criminal defendant, i mean, this is not -- i feel like the age issue has been pushed and pushed by republicans, right? this idea and, remember, in 2020 we saw this too. they said joe biden is demented. joe biden stays in the basement and then he got up on the debate stage and he was really good and expectations have been so lowered that he came off as a gifted orator which even he would say he is not. so i do think we're seeing the right work it and seeing so much polling about age but we're not polling trump's age. i mean, he's three years younger. this is not a different generation. >> well, for whatever reason -- >> under a lot of stress. >> 73% say biden is too old. only 47% say trump is too old. it's about vitality. >> they come across different. that's not just coming from the republicans but democrats, but i want to just push back on eugene a little bit. i do think the democrats have to

freak out a little bit. i really do. i think there needs to be fire. i think there needs to be energy. i think there needs to be the real understanding that donald trump can be our next president and that would end democracy and in that, in that fear and in that being frightened to death, i used to run a business. you run it like you're going out of business. the democrats need to run their business like they're going out of business. >> well, yeah, there's no doubt they need to be concerned. i think anybody that supports american democracy and doesn't want a guy who said he will terminate the united states constitution and doesn't want a guy that grand jury has found has stolen nuclear secrets and secret american war plans to invade iran, they need to be worried and need to do everything they can to win. a great point by eugene, though, i can't wait to see the deck that jim is passing around because i do believe and hear the whining and wimpering by a

lot of people and get it because so much is on the line. i still, please find me the suburban voters in atlanta and philadelphia and detroit and wisconsin, you know, around milwaukee, in arizona that voted against donald trump in 2020 that are going to vote for him in 2024. i've heard people explain it. i have yet to meet one of them and i talk to a lot of people in those areas. you're just not going to find it. one other thing to misery index. we started hearing about it when jimmy carter was president of the united states. it actually does have an impact when jimmy carter left what was -- the misery index, carter, over 20%, right? >> uh-huh. >> joe biden has cut -- by the way, misery index is inflation plus unemployment. joe biden has cut the misery index in half since donald trump left office.

and every economist said we weren't going to have a smooth landing. it was going to be almost impossible to stick the smooth landing. they said we're going into a recession. all the smart people on wall street have been saying we were going into a recession. now they're starting to say, you know, probably not and it looks like we're going to stick that soft landing. so, again, the data does look good. the white house understands that. >> yeah. >> they've got to get americans feeling that good data. >> yes. there's a huge contrast and a lot to brag on. brag on it. but anyway, special correspondent at "vanity fair" and host of "the fast politics podcast," molly jong-fast, always good to see you. thanks for coming on this morning. and still ahead the former leader of the proud boys gets the longest sentence yet relating to the january 6th capitol attack. we'll get expert legal analysis

on the implications of that decision, plus, one of our next guests is taking a look at what a possible trump second term means for america's allies and its rivals. we'll have that new reporting ahead. and one of the tennessee three, the three tennessee democrats, one of them who survived expulsion by her republican colleagues earlier this year after leading a gun violence protest is making a run for the senate. tennessee state representative gloria johnson joins us next to weigh in on her new campaign. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

(pensive music) (footsteps crunching) (pensive music) (birds tweeting) (pensive music) (broom sweeping) - [narrator] one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food. no family dinners, no special treats, no full bellies. all around the world, parents are struggling to feed their children. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition, which stunts their growth. kids are forced to drop out of school so they can help support their families. covid, conflict, inflation and climate have ignited the worst famine in our lifetime.

and we're fed up. fed up with the fact that hunger robs children of their childhood. fed up with the lack of progress. fed up with the injustice. help us brighten the lives of children all over the world by visiting getfedupnow.org. for as little as $10 a month, you can join save the children as we support children and families in desperate need of our help. now is the time to get fed up and give back. when you join the cause, your $10 monthly donation can help communities in need of life-saving treatments and nutrients, prevent children from dropping out of school. support our work with communities and governments to help children go from short-term surviving to long-term thriving. and now thanks to special government grants, every dollar you give before december 31st can multiply up to 10 times the impact. that means more food, water, medicine and help for kids around the world.

you'll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. childhood without food is unimaginable. get fed up. call us now or visit getfedupnow.org today. yet another horrific story playing out in the south. >> when will enough be enough? when will we elect leaders with

the courage to stand up for us instead of a bunch of bullies and cowards who only do what their party says and when it's bull [ bleep ], i call it bull [ bleep ]. what i do is fight for justice for real people because that's what tennessee deserve, i'm 6'3". i'm not afraid to stand up to anyone when it comes to doing what's right for tennessee especially marsha blackburn. >> right. that was one of the members of the tennessee three, state representative gloria johnson officially announcing her candidacy for the u.s. senate. johnson along with fellow state representatives justin jones and justin pearson faced expulsion votes earlier this year for using a bull horn on the state house floor to advocate for gun legislation after the covenant school mass shooting in nashville. while johnson survived expulsion

by one vote, jones and pearson were expelled. they were later reinstated and re-elected. if johnson prevails in the democratic primary she will face incumbent republican senator marsha blackburn. the senate put out a video statement after johnson's announcement. take a listen. >> she's a far left democrat. she's as woke as they come, and she knows all the liberal big wigs in tennessee. frankly, my opponent is a direct threat to our way of life. >> wow, well, i guess we'll start with a response to that. tennessee state representative and candidate for u.s. senate gloria johnson joins us now. nice to have you on the show. interesting -- >> great to be here. >> -- response from marsha blackburn on your candidacy. what do you say to that?

>> well, there wasn't anything factual in there. that's for sure. a lot of name-calling. it's quite remarkable actually when you come out and attack someone like that, it's kind of what i was talking about, the bullies that we see in some of our elected officials, just coming out on the attack and making false claims and but i expected this and this is why one of the reasons why i decided to run, because tennesseans deserve better than this. >> so what is it that tennesseans are getting at this point? i'm looking at pictures of the whole situation with you and the tennessee three. when did you say, you know what, i'm going to do this? i'm going to run for senate and what was the inspiration behind it? >> well, you know what, i thought about it for a little while, been thinking sinces beginning of the year probably,

but as we moved in session and then the gun violence issue became so prominent, we had folks from republicans, independents, democrats that cared deeply about ending gun violence in tennessee. we have a serious problem. gun violence is the number one killer of our children, and that is a fact. and so we have elected republicans who refuse to do anything rather than loosen gun laws, and we have these officials that are basically owned by the nra and, quite frankly, marsha blackburn is one of these folks. she gets millions from the nra and has gotten millions. so we need people that are going to work for tennesseans and not for the special interests and lobbyists. >> representative johnson, good morning. it's good to have you on the

show. we had 2018, the election of marsha blackburn, her first senate run and she ran against a two-term governor of tennessee, phil bredesen, a popular mayor of nashville and won going away, by 11 points in that race. some would argue tennessee has gotten even more conservative since then and latched herself to donald trump and endorsed him already for 2024. what makes you think she is vulnerable in a way she wasn't six years ago? >> i think that what we are seeing, there is a movement in tennessee, there is no question. we are building a broad coalition. when that incident with the tennessee three happened and when they took away the first amendment from members, from people in the gallery, from people in the rotunda, when they tried to silence people, not only was all of tennessee watching but the nation was watching. they showed up, young students, young people, parents with their

kids on their shoulders showed up to say, we want something done, and then nothing happened. they actually ended session ten days to two weeks early and accomplished nothing on gun violence, which is what people wanted to see. they promised a special session, but in the special session they refused to talk about firearms. so, we've got 80% -- there were multiple polls, 80% of tennesseans regardless of party want to see some action taken on gun violence. and they are doing absolutely nothing. and that's what we're getting out of marsha blackburn. you know, she's in with the nra. she is currently working right now, they're working in d.c. trying to negotiate prescription prices so senior citizens don't get caught in that donut hole

and have ox shall tant prescription costs and she's working to keep prescription costs high. she's doing nothing for tennessee families. but then she gets almost $2 million from insurance company and big pharma. we need somebody who works for tennesseans. representative jackson, good morning, one of the things we saw in tennessee and continue to see is leading the charge for gun safety measures are young people, and, you know, young people have been voting more and more every election cycle, and how do you anticipate using that coalition, and bringing out young voters, and it would seem there are huge numbers that will encounter all of the element of the republican party and their strength in tennessee? >> in my generation, we didn't grow up. i didn't have to worry about gunshots in my classroom, and this is a generation of young

people that grew up with active shooter drills and this idea that gun violence can come into the classroom. they are motivated. they had meetings in a variety of counties to talk about gun violence. they are not slowing down or stopping. they are passionate about it, and they showed up to create rallies in surrounding counties in all that. gen z is smart and savvy and they care, and they are getting to work, absolutely. we are seeing a transformational movement in tennessee like we have not seen before. we are building a coalition. a lot of times our colleagues across the aisle try to divide us, and we are building a multigenerational coalition, and it's a movement that is building

and building and growing. we are going to be speaking to everybody in this campaign. >> tennessee state representative and now candidate for u.s. senate, gloria johnson. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> thank you for having me. >> all right. take care. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest on the growing manhunt in pennsylvania for an escaped killer. plus, lawyers for convicted murderer alex murdaugh claim they have new evidence that warrants a new trial. that's all ahead on "morning joe." physically i'm right here, but mentally, i'm here. yeah, “i do” c'mon speed it up. so, when all eyes are on you, my eyes are glued to the game. touchdown! yeah! and if you didn't bundle your home and auto insurance...

all of this...this could be tough to tackle. so, get allstate and be better protected from mayhem... like me. my name is kilah and concrete has been my career. i'm a cement mason by trade. being a mom is hard, it's just hard in a different way. it's really unique to catch a break. i feel like joe biden understands people like me. all the things that biden fought to get passed help the middle class. wages are going up around here. the people that i deal with on a day-to-day basis they're getting a pay raise. what president biden has accomplished is actually helping real people. i'm joe biden and i approve this message.

there you go. the end much game 7 of the lakers versus pistons, and that featured some of the greatest players of all-time. and larry bird and magic johnson, and the unproven chicago bulls superstar, michael jordan. the rich cohen joins us now. why do you say this was the nba's greatest season? >> they were the most future hall of famers playing at one time, and it had this incredible

collection of dynasties, and all historic dynasties and various states of rises and falls. the celtics were kind of old, and the lakers were at the top, and the pistons had a great team and nobody knew it, not even the pistons, and then you had the bulls. how i picture it, it was the game of thrones, and the future will be the bulls and nobody knows it yet, and they are like the king of dragons waiting off land to come in and win. >> it's interesting, the knock on michael wood's great one-on-one player fun to watch but not a team guy, and larry bird said -- >> yeah, when i was a kid, it was michael jordan and the

jordanares. i was a history major in college, and with this team you could see how history operates, and i hated the way they played when i was a kid, why so violently, and it was because they were the team that were built to beat the 76ers, and the bulls had to figure out how to beat the pistons. if you wanted to understand what the united states was like when i was a kid, you had to understand the soviet union, and if you wanted to understand the bulls, you had to understand -- >> yeah, and it was still three years until michael won that title. >> i would like to ask you nothing but larry byrd questions. >> i think it's sort of like magic and larry play in the championship, and i remember

being a kid and watching it and that took it to another level, right to the nba, and michael jordan, i think he is the greatest athlete in american history, and i grew up in -- >> you are a chicago guy. >> yeah, and i think anything he would have done he would have been great at. his charisma just carried the league. i know when he retired that second time, i sort of felt the letdown. it was like elvis has left the building. the idea that he had a struggle and did not get to the championship for many years was good, because as a person from chicago, we watched that team come together like a band and slowly figure out how to play together, and when they overcame the pistons, finally, it was like it was overcoming a monster, and that was

cartwright's words. >> the funny thing is, i mean, i love byrd, and how tough he was and how much of a fighter he was, and the thing i love about this era is how much bird, who was just a son of a bitch to everybody he played against, he was the worst human being ever, and he was proudly the toughest, meanest trash talker, and everybody would talk about it, and hearing him talk now, hearing michael talk about larry talk about magic, extraordinary respect among all of them, and we have these debates, who is the greatest among them?

you can't debate that, and by the way, bo jackson, the greatest athlete of all-time. we had our eyes fixed there, and michael did not have what it took to win a championship, and you look at his extraordinary drive and determination, and it really is surprising how driven that guy was, how -- what a force michael jordan was. >> what interested me so much were the personalities. i feel like jordan, if you want to look at what made him what he was, it was playing against his big brother on the driveway when he was a kid and getting beat by his brother gave him the rage,

and then michael jordan didn't make his team in high school, and you tell your kid, michael jordan didn't make that either -- >> it was his sophomore year. >> i say junior year, and you have to lie a little. you look at a guy like isaiah thomas who was the heel in the wrestling terms with the pistons, and he was such a great player and he didn't hide his being a son of a bitch, and michael, he could be nasty, and -- >> the pistons team, and rodman -- >> yeah, don't forget bill lamb beard, and i was an intern on

capitol hill and i thought about taking a swing at him for bulls fans. >> by the way, you would have gotten a standing ovation from the capitol cops had you done that. in closing, you say the game was a war, and i think back to the fight between larry byrd and bill, and we don't see anything like that in the nba like that today, do we? >> know, the pistons broke the code, and there was jordan rules for the whole league, if we are not going to beat you, we are at least going to beat you up. by the time you got to the end of the games, those stars were so beaten up they couldn't perform and the league realized it was a threat to the stars, and the pistons were the '85 bears, they were a tough team.

and then the three-point shot pulled all the action to the outside, and now i look at the paint and it looks like a city during covid, i mean, there ain't nobody there. >> yeah, and if you are a seven footer, you have to play point guard. >> as you can tell, we could talk about this for the next two hours but have to get back to the news. rich, great to see you. >> thank you so much. the next hour of "morning joe" begins right now. mika? >> good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, september 6th. we have a lot to get to this morning. the longest prison sentence yet for somebody involved in the capitol attack goes to a man who wasn't even there that day. we will have expert legal analysis on that punishment, as well as the latest developments

in fulton county, the election interference case there in georgia, plus senate minority leader mitch mcconnell addresses concerns about his health following two unsettling incidents where he froze up in front of reporters. and republican presidential candidate, chris christie is calling out fellow gop challenger, ron desantis, as the florida governor is slipping in the polls. we will have his comments for you straight ahead along with joe, willie and me. we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, and sam stein and former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official, chuck rosenberg. willie? sorry, joe? >> yeah, i mean, let's get to baseball first. lemire, you didn't stay up to see that atrocity last night, did you? >> no, i made the wise decision to go to bed. the sox tied it when i called it

a day. i woke up this morning early to check the score and threw my phone across the room. a tough, tough loss. >> gee. wow. >> yeah, tough loss. sam, what about you? >> i did watch it. the sox were atrocious, and left bases loaded and no outs and didn't score, and then the bullpen imploded again. the trop, the field is atrocity. baseball should not be played there. there should not be a catwalk that potentially interferes with the baseball. it's time to move it from tampa. >> have you seen any of the bear, the series "the bear "? >> it's so funny you say that, christine and i just started it this week. we are in the first season.

>> it's really good. >> really good. >> i have to say, so john heilman, for some reason, he got into this really early, and i think last summer. yeah, the first drop, he watched it all in two days which sounds crazy. we started watching it after i was going to interview jamie lee curtis, who is just extraordinary. we usually fly through series really quick, and we took our time and as a family we watched the first season and then found out the jack, after watching the first season, watched the entire second season in a single night. so we're still -- we're trying to be disciplined about this.

i have got -- i have to confess to you, mika -- >> oh, no. >> i got an episode ahead of you last night. >> christine did that to me last night, yep. jumped ahead. >> i have to tell you, we talk about a lot of tv shows here, great tv shows here, and second season, willie, when you get to five, six and seven -- you tell me after you have seen three better back-to-back-to-back shows in television? >> i have not seen five so i wouldn't know. i just can't believe you did that. that's like the code, you broke the code. you are going to play. >> it ends with can't hardly wait by replacements was one of the most moving moments of my

life. you have the family at christmas on six, and then seven -- richie -- it's about richie, seven is about richie. i am telling you, just tears in my eyes. it's just amazing. anyway, we have gone on a little bit too long -- >> yes, we have. >> -- mika, watch seven tonight, it's called "forks" -- >> i don't know how. okay. >> but then call me up and i will tell you how to get hulu. it's like the 87 times before i told you to get hulu, and you watch seven "folks," and the music, it's like they are talking to me! i never really -- the john hughes films, i love john hughes, right, and i was never

that cool, not like ferris bueller, too cool, but these bear people -- like you said, some of the best acting i have seen everywhere. >> i am always late to series, and i just heard, you have to watch the bear, you have to watch the bear, and the episodes are quick. they are 28 minutes, 29 minutes, so you can whip right through it. i am still in the first season, and almost finished with that, and looking forward to the next based on your pitch. all the way down the cast, oh, man, i mean, to the pastry chef, all of them, such a great series. this is the case where the hype is real about "the bear." can't recommend it enough.

>> now for something completely different, willie geist. >> is there a segue or something? >> well, there are so many bad things happening in the world that it's nice to be able to get a little distraction from the bad news of the day, you know. willie, the japanese, they have a saying, and -- go ahead, just go ahead with the news. >> and we will pick up the edit here. here we go. the former leader of the proud boys has been sentenced to 22 years in prison, and that's the longest sentence yet stemming from the attack on the capitol, and there were two other sentences after using violence to try and keep trump in power. ken dilanian has the details. >> a central figure in the

attack on the u.s. capitol has been handed the stiffest sentence so far, the one-time leader of the far right proud boys will spend 22 years behind bars. while not physically present during the riot, he directed others and celebrated in a text message, saying in a text message, make no mistake, we did this. the judge decided 33 years was too long, and judge kelly also sentenced two other proud boys last week to lengthy terms but less than what the prosecution had asked for. >> this is crazy. >> this is history. >> they were convicted of seditious conspiracy, and their goal was to orchestrate violence to keep then president trump in office, and the proud boys were behind every major breach of the capitol behind the attack, and

on cnn he ridiculed members of the congress as they huddled in fear. >> i am not going to cry about a group of people that don't give a crap about their constituents. >> but in judge he said to the men and women of law enforcement that answered the call that day, i'm sorry. >> yeah, not a political zelle, but mocking elected members of congress, and we are democracy and they were fearing for their lives for good reason, cops getting the hell beaten out of them, and the proud boys have been sentenced from 10 to 22 years, and there's a pattern, and they get before a judge and some cry and say they are really sorry and feel really bad and then they get sentenced and then they go on info wars or somewhere else, saying basically

i would do it again, trump won, et cetera, et cetera, and that didn't happen with him. he did sound a bit contrite yesterday, and left with 22 years, and left with a v for a victory sign as he left the courthouse. and if donald trump gets elected, these people that a united states governor or a jury of their peers convicted them of, for causing the ultimate death of four cops, and these are the very people that donald trump promised he's going to pardon. that's what they are banking on. >> some of them, joe, said that out loud. the previous highest sentence of 17 years for another member of the proud boys, he wept in

court, and he called into info wars where he used to work and said i know in my heart, donald trump will pardon me. they have the long sentences and they believe in donald trump is elected they will be taken care of because they were carrying out his orders on that day in many ways. chuck rosenberg, i am curious, it was joe bigs that called in the info wars with the 17-year-sentence, and tar yo was not there that day. are you surprised by the length of the sentence? >> not really. it makes sense that he would get more and the most. he was the leader of the proud boys, and the proud boys were among the leaders at the breach. by the way, it points out a couple things. number one, you don't have to be

physically present if you are a member of a conspiracy, and in this case a seditious conspiracy, acting through force and violence to overthrow the government of the united states and halt the electoral vote, and if you take a leadership role you ought to be treated by a leader at sentencing, and i have attended a lot of sentencing, and some true and some false, and either way he was sentenced for what he did as leader of the proud boys. by the way, 22 years in the federal system means that he will serve at least 85% of that, so about 19 years. parole has been abolished in the federal system and might get credit for good time, but 22 years is a significant sentence and well deserved. >> prosecutors say the fact that he was not there at the capitol, quote, does nothing to detract from the severity of his conduct

because he was a general rather than a soldier, khg raises questions about others facing generals down the road. >> yeah, he may be a general but who is above him, and it would be with donald trump sitting in the oval office or in the bunker. despite being removed, he was not at the capitol himself, and outspoken and remember there were proud boys that had been in communication with members of trump's circle, and it was the proud boys that president trump said stand back and stand by at the debate. chuck, let me pose the question that willie just put to me, is this a template here if we go down the road and we end up with and we get a conviction of donald trump for this, for the

federal election interference case, which is less about january 6th itself and about the events that led to it, could we see something similar for a sentence for donald trump? >> not to be a lawyer here, but you have to look at the counts for conviction, and you are not sentenced for others' criminal conduct but for your own, and if he was convicted the judge would look at what he had been convicted of and the federal sentencing guidelines that counter that conviction, and it's telling, you know, that leaders, present or not are treated different. you saw that with mr. terryo. and trump has not been charged with seditious conspiracy, and i imagine a federal judge at sentencing will look at what

other people received in terms of punishment, and they would try and slot mr. trump in accordingly. again, each case on its own set of facts, each count of conviction with its own federal sentencing guidelines. we will turn to georgia now wherever codefendant in the fulton county election interference case waived their arraignment appearance and pleaded not guilty. the 19 codefendants were scheduled to be arraigned today but that's no long urness, and there will be a separate hearing this afternoon to consider the requests of two defendants, kenneth chesebro and sidney foul. a judge says he will ask the state to estimate how long a trial will take as the group, and they are moving up their

potential court dates. only chesebro confirmed his trial on october 23rd. several other defendants are requesting a separate trial. john eastman's attorney argue they would not have enough time to prepare for a october trial date. chesebro's lawyers are looking to dismiss his rico charges altogether, citing the supremacy clause of the constitution, and they argue most of the charges against him apply to federal law and not georgia state law. first of all, the motion to sever, does that make the case against trump easier or harder to prosecute in georgia, and any potential these people could flip? what do you see happening here? >> taking a step back, mika, and these are all good questions,

the georgia case is cumbersome. that's to put it sort of mildly. they charged 19 people understate rico provisions, so a big sprawling complex cumbersome case. now you can see what happens when defendants ask for and receive different things. contrast that with what jack smith did in the case he brought to washington, d.c. related to the events on january 6th, and there you see a streamlined case. not surprising in georgia, you see a bunch of people splitting off in different directions and asking for different things, and i prefer the streamlined approach that the special counsel took, and whether or not pieces of this case gets severed or get tried separately, i think a couple things are clear. you are not going to see 19 trials of 19 individuals. you probably will not see one trial of 19 individuals.

you are going to see some people move to have their cases transferred to federal court, and you are going to see some people to your point, mika, perhaps plead guilty and cooperate. there's a disadvantage, i think, in bringing a case this big and this complex and sprawling. what i learned as a prosecutor was, you know, focus on the most important things and the most important people, and keep it simple, keep it straightforward, streamlined is always better. that's my bias and how i grew up as a prosecutor and what i continue to believe. i think that's one of the problems you are now seeing play out in georgia. >> what a massive problem. it's the opposite of streamlined and chances are really good this case will not be heard by a jury until after the election. the 2032 election. sam stein, we have a new poll out by cnn, and maybe not 2032, but it's going to be a while.

probably not. i have a new cnn poll out that says basically the same thing "the wall street journal" poll says is republicans are thrilled they have a chance to vote for a candidate that stole nuclear secrets and a rapist, and a candidate that sold secret war plans, and assessments of america's military and where it's the weakest, and a candidate that showed classified material after he was out of the white house, and he admitted he was not supposed to be showing this classified material and that it was classified and it couldn't be classified because he was no longer president of the united states, and a president under trial for illegal payments, hush-money to a born star, and a party of 2023

says, yeah, give me more of that. >> yeah, that's right. that's where we are. it's kind of funny. we were anticipating the first republican primary debate thinking it might actually shift some of the ground for this election, and the fact of the matter is, it changed nothing. these indictments, these court cases, trump's legal troubles are way more definitive and determinative in the primary than anything else, and in ways that defy logic, and the more legal trouble he gets in, more republican voters rally to his side, and the cnn poll show a split here, and the voting public electorate seems to find these cases not a big deal. they are dismissive of the charges and don't think it disqualifies trump at all, and the bigger electorate finds them

to be disqualifying, and in theory that creates a problem for the republican party in four or five months time, and in the primary, there's no incentive for him to participate in the forthcoming debates after what happened to the last one, and he's barely campaigning and all he has to do is stay put and win with the voting electorate he has, and then the republican party has a real quagmire on their hands. elon musk has a long list of names on perceived enemies, and we will talk about who the billionaire is accusing of hurting twitter or x, the ad revenue, whatever the company is called. that's straight ahead on "morning joe."

♪ chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado.

♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) ( ♪♪ ) ( ♪♪ ) -awww. -awww. -awww. -nope. ( ♪♪ ) constant contact delivers the marketing tools your small business needs to keep up, excel, and grow. constant contact. helping the small stand tall. i need it cool at night. you trying to ice me out of the bed? constant contact. baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only $999. plus free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. shop now only at sleep number.

(vo) in three seconds, janice will win a speedboat. (woman) bingo! i'm moving to the lake. gotta sell the house. (vo) ooh! that's a lot of work. (woman) ooh! (vo) don't worry. skip the hassels and sell directly to opendoor. (woman) bingo. (vo) get your competitive offer at opendoor dot com.

nice footwork. man, you're lucky, watching live sports never used to be this easy. now you can stream all your games like it's nothing. yes! [ cheers ] yeah! woho! running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network.

we're following a new development in a criminal case that gripped much of the country this past march. lawyers for alex murdaugh, accused of killing his wife and son, are seeking a new trial. murdaugh's legal team argue they uncovered evidence of jury tampering and are calling for an investigation. nbc news correspondent, kathy park, has the details. >> a surprising motion filed by murdaugh's defense attorney as the county clerk of court is accused of jury tampering. >> the clerk of court had improper private communications with the jurors. >> hill did not respond to nbc news's request for comment. in court documents murdaugh's

attorneys said the clerk asked jurors for their opinions about murdaugh's guilt or innocence, and pressured them to come up with a verdict. >> i can't talk about the attorney/client privilege information. when i shared with him the affidavits, he is a lawyer and was in disbelief. >> hill published a tell-all book, and even wrote about visiting the murder scene. some of us had an epiphany and shared our thoughts with our eyes. murdaugh's attorney says hill betrayed her oath of office for money and fame. >> she's trying to make money

off of it. she's selling the book. >> the jury found murdaugh guilty of killing his wife and son. >> these motions are always difficult to win. the defendant has to show not only that they just discovered this evidence, but it's evidence that would probably affect the out come of a new trial. >> when i saw the headline of this, i rolled my eyes and said here they come again, but then when i read the contents, the pleadings, if you have a clerk of court saying don't be fooled by the defendant's testimony, and talked about that and all the other things you heard there, if, in fact, those statements can be verified, does he have a chance for a new trial? >> if those statements can be verified, yes, quite possibly. see, here's the problem. a jury -- juries, nobody gets to

talk to jurors about the case, and jurors cannot talk among themselves until all the evidence has been submitted and they have been instructed on the law by the judge, so if there's an outside influence and if it's coming particularly from a person from the court, like here, allegedly the clerk of the court, it's possible. the judge will question individual jurors, and judges don't like to do that, and you presume they followed the law and acted appropriately, but these affidavits may prompt the judge to question individual jurors, and if it's true that the clerk of the court said things or communicated with her eyes, whatever that heck that means, it could be the bases granting mr. murdaugh a new

trial, and it doesn't mean he will walk free, and could there be a different outcome at a second trial? of course. much remains to be written about this case. much remains to be learned. these are serious accusations. i imagine the judge will take it seriously. >> from the proud boys to the murdaugh trial and everything in between, and chuck rosenberg can truly do it all. a massive manhunt continues in pennsylvania for a prisoner on the run. a school in chester county, pennsylvania, is shut down now after a prisoner escaped, and now they are expanding their church. george solis has the latest. >> this is what he looks like after nearly a week on the run. >> it confirms cavalcante has not changed his experience, but

obtained a backpack and a hooded sweatshirt. >> the pictures captured from a camera in a garden. the cavalcante has been able to evade capture and move beyond the police line in part because he is in a wooded area. >> i wish we would have captured him without him getting through the parameter, but it's a dark area. >> the area is expanded by a two-mile radius. this man says danelo cavalcante was in his home on friday, and then he flipped the lights on and off. >> he flipped the light switch back a few times, and i turned

to my wife and said he's here in the house. >> and that prompted schools to shutdown. >> i would like it to be over, like, yesterday. >> in recent days, residents have been receiving calls like this one, obtained by nbc news alerting them to stay vigilant with cavalcante on the loose. >> he's convicted of homicide and is considered extremely dangerous. >> he was sentenced to life in prison for the stabbing of his ex-girlfriend. police broadcasting audio recordings from high above of his own mother urging himself to turn himself in. >> he's a bad guy and needs to be in custody and we are determined to capture him. coming up, during the january 6th hearings on capitol hill, liz cheney revealed this information about a republican congressman from pennsylvania.

>> as you will see, representative perry contacted the white house in the weeks after january 6th to seek a presidential pardon. multiple other republican congressmen also sought presidential pardons for their roles in attempting to overturn the 2020 election. >> congressman scott perry denies it, and an appeals court just issued a major ruling surrounding the government's investigation into perry's role on january 6th. that's ahead on "morning joe."

blinken is in kyiv meeting with ukrainian officials including

president zelenskyy. he wrapped up a meeting moments ago reaffirming america's commitment to helping ukraine. >> i am here first and foremost to demonstrate our ongoing and determined support for ukraine as it deals with this aggression. we have seen good progress in the counter offensive, and we want to make sure ukraine has what it needs not only to succeed in the counter offensive, but as what it needs for the long-term as it has a strong deterrent and defense capacity so in the future aggression like this doesn't happen again. >> it marks his fourth trip to ukraine since the war began, and he's expected to announce more than $1 billion in new funding for ukraine. joining us, nbc key foreign

correspondent, richard engel. >> reporter: good morning. it's good to be back in ukraine, and according to state officials who are briefing reporters, this trip is designed to show u.s. support, to connect with the ukrainian government as it is now three months into the offensive, and one senior u.s. official described it as a going back to school moment, the summer is over and the u.s. is getting back to work and congress back into session, and the u.s. general assembly meeting in a few weeks, and president zelenskyy likely to attend that as well, and it's time to shaw support and get on the same page and bring the war back to front and center to the american public during a time when the american people have

not been looking at this conflict this summer. >> what is the true sense on the ground there in ukraine on how this counter offensive, as you say now, three months in, much discussed and much anticipated counter offensive, and there has been some frustration expressed at the slow pace of things in a ground war like this, but how sit going from the view of the ground officials there in ukraine? >> reporter: it has been incredibly difficult. i think anybody who watches wars for a long time understand they are not linear, and they come in phases, and it's the ukrainians who were not defending themselves when the war began, and putin tried to take the capitol and capture kyiv and lost. the ukrainians were very effective in chasing down those

russian troops driving them back to the border. we saw dramatic advances as they were attacking and retreating, the russian troops, and now they are dug in a 600-mile line, and there are land mines, and they are fighting close-up against the russian border so it's difficult for the ukrainians to break through these fortified positions, and it covers an area roughly the size of florida, and you are sending ukrainian troops, in small groups, platoon size, and to punch a hole in the fortified positions and they are experiencing heavy losses on both sides, according to some u.s. estimates, and we are

talking about 500,000 killed or injured on both sides, roughly 300,000 russian killed or injured and 200,000 ukrainian killed or injured, and many of this happened during this offensive. >> richard, i am curious, has there been any talk about some of the reporting in the new book about the relationship, the strained relationship, between the american president and the ukrainian president about him being so naive before the war started and refusing to listen to the americans saying you are going to be invaded, and then called as an ingreat by biden, and is there any backdrop or blowback from any ukrainian officials? >> reporter: i know what you are talking about, and i know that is something that both sides are very sensitive about and don't want to discuss openly.

when i was last here in kyiv i interviewed president zelenskyy, and one of the points he wanted to make, and he wanted to make we included in our interview is how appreciative he is to president biden personally, how he doesn't take this u.s. support for granted, that this is something that is -- that is an american commitment and also a commitment from this administration. publicly they absolutely don't want to highlight any kind of frustration or personal dissatisfaction at things going ahead. generally speaking, i think what we saw today by a visit from the secretary of state, they gave each other a hug and a pat on the back, and i think in general the relationship between the u.s. government and ukrainian government is quite warm, and if

donald trump won the election, that would be a different relationship. whatever problems or misunderstandings that happened in the past between zelenskyy and biden would be nothing compared to if trump was elected. >> thank you. the biden administration is warning north korea against providing russia with military support. at a briefing yesterday, the white house national security adviser, jake sullivan, said discussions about a potential arms deal between moscow and north korea are advancing. >> providing weapons to russia to attack saoeul silos, and trying to conquer territory that

belongs to another sovereign territory will not bode well -- >> that new warning comes amid speculation that north korean leader, kim jong-un, may travel this month for a meeting with russian president, vladimir putin. coming up, bracing for trump 2.0. our next guest says the ex-president's return brings fear for some. that's next when "morning joe" comes right back. when "morning " comes right back when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq.

check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. i wouldn't have my business if it wasn't for my website. once i decided to go with godaddy, the process was seamless. i was able to create my website on my own. to have it be exactly what i want it to be. be able to integrate my appointment app.

godaddy was able to provide everything that i needed. the whole image of who i am and what empire is is presented through my godaddy website. ♪ i may be known for my legendary football career, but truth is, i love a bunch of sports. is presented through my godaddy website. the only trouble is knowing where to find them. that's why i got xfinity. so, i can easily find and watch whatever sport i'm into all in one place without missing a thing. even if it's football, australian football, or football football. in a word—it's fitz-credible.

i got to trademark that one. this season, eligible xfinity rewards members can get up to $100 off nfl sunday ticket from youtube. sign up for xfinity rewards now. former president donald trump continues to dominate the republican primary field, despite four indictments against

him in the campaigning. joining us now, "morning joe" economic analyst steve ratner with data on one theory behind trump's seemingly unbreakable support. so we'll start with your first chart, decades of idealogical sorts may have brought us here. >> one theory why republicans are sticking so close to trump is this idea of tribalism. let's take a look at what's been happening among party members and various parties over the last several decades, because this is a long run phenomenon. but if you go back to the late '70s, you can see that only about 30% of republicans identified themselves as conservative, and almost 20% of democrats identified as conservative. and then if you fast forward over the decades, you can see what's hand, and we all i think probably thought this is where we are now, maybe we didn't

think about that then. but you can see now about 60% of republicans call themselves conservative, and only about 5% of democrats call themselves conservatives. when you talk -- sorry, everything i just said is about liberals. when you talk about conservatives, you can see that back in the '70s, less than 50% of republicans considered themselves conservative. today, over 70% do. and the same thing -- the reverse happened with democrats. almost 30% considered themselves conservative. today that number is down to just 10%. so on an idealogical basis, americans have gone into their corners. >> yeah, you know, another really surprising development, and we can't put this just down on trump. it's something i noticed even in my races back in the 1990s. republicans were supposed to win suburban, sort of country club

types, and democrats were supposed to win working class voters. i noticed in our districts after we won, i did extremely well among -- in the blue collar areas. and what we're seeing now is a continuation of that sorting, pretty dramatically where republicans are still making gains among working class voters, but they're losing an awful lot of suburban voters, and the breakdown seems to come, steve, more -- i mean, more than race, more than income, more than anything, on education as far as are they high school grads, college grads or post grads, and there's a real sorting there. >> yeah, let's talk about educational sorting. we all talk a lot about how non-college educated whites have

moved towards trump. there's a lot of truth to that. but there's a longer run phenomenon here. let's talk about whites with college degrees. as you would imagine in 1990, 55% of whites with college degrees identified themselves as republicans, and only about 40% of democrats identified themselves with college degrees as democrats. so then you can see the percentage of people with college -- whites with college degrees who identified as democrats goes up. and the percentage of republicans with college degrees goes down. so we've had a slip. you can see here, it did happen a little bit faster during the trump period when whites with college degrees moved away from here. and whites without college degrees, the so-called working class whites, they were

surprisingly evenly divided between the two parties until seven or eight years ago. then you started to have this shift that we talked so much about, where whites without college degrees moved into the republican party, and out of the democratic party. >> that really shows up in support for donald trump in almost every poll we look at. as we move to the third chart, get to the personal, which is that somewhere along the way, our political leaders started to tell us the other side wasn't just wrong, but that were evil and were enemies. >> one consequence is as people have moved into their corners, they moved further away from each other and become more hostile towards each other. these numbers are incredibly dramatic and incredibly depressing when you think about it. so, again, you go back to the early '90s, you can see that members of both parties, most of them did not view the other party unfavorably.

and then you can see this extraordinary climb up here so where now between 50% and 60% of both parties view the other side extremely unfavorably. so this is a lot of hostility. and then other questions, is the other party closed minded, dishonest, unintelligent, if you look at immoral and lazy, you find significant increases over this time period on both sides in terms of how they view the other party. so this is part of why i think we're in this period of unbelievable partisan hostility, and also why as they move into their corners, each party protects its own, and in this case, donald trump. coming up, how donald trump's co-defendants are starting to turn against him. we have the latest reporting on that when "morning joe" comes right back. that when "morning joe" comes right back

♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ sleep more deeply. and wake up rejuvenated. with purple's new mattresses fall asleep 20% faster have less aches and pains and sleep uninterrupted. right now save up to $900 off mattresses sets during purple's labor day sale. visit purple.com or a store near you to a child, this is what conflict looks like.

children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's bitterly cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month,

your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. singlecare is amazing. even though i have insurance, it can't beat the pricing i get on my medication through singlecare.

before i submit any prescriptions, i always check singlecare first! just go to singlecare.com, search for your prescription and show the coupon to your pharmacist. millions of people on medicare, just like me, use singlecare every month, and you can too! visit singlecare.com and start saving today. i wouldn't do one thing differently. my job at that moment, when you saw that picture, we had over $35 billion in damage done to our state. 2/3 of the state was without electricity. we had no operating water or waste water treatment plants. every major highway was obstructed. 365,000 homes were destroyed in 24 hours. that's the guy who could help me get it fixed. >> could desantis have met -- >> of course he should have. we shouldn't be playing politics

with this stuff. but ron desantis voted against sandy aid, and now he wants aid. this is the hypocrisy everyone sees in politics. i'm here to tell the people the truth, which is if i had to do it all over again 11 years ago, and i know it was six days before the election, but i was governor of new jersey, and my job was to make sure my state got rebuilt and my people were covered as quickly as possible and i couldn't do that without the help of the president of the united states. >> he had to. we have people that play politics. politicians have played politics with people's lives in a situation like that. i've said it here before, willie, i had a guy come to northwest florida that voted to impeach a couple of times, and he's a guy that, when he was there, yeah, he could help small

business owners who were trying to get their businesses back up running. he could help people that were on their hands and knees sorting through the trash that was once air homes, while they're weeping, trying to find wedding pictures and pictures of their kids, trying to reconstruct their lives. so when you have a president come in, whether it's a republican or a democrat, and you have an area that's been really impacted by a hurricane, you're extraordinarily negligent if you don't go talk to the president of the united states, who can pick up the phone, call fema, take care of the situation. pick up the phone, call sba, take care of a problem. call secretary of transportation and take care of a problem. and the fact that ron desantis would be so -- negligent to not meet with the president is just asinine. it's like if chris christie

hadn't met with barack obama during sandy, he wouldn't have been doing his job, he would have been playing politics with poem's lives. and i agree with chris christie, that's something that ron desantis is doing right now. a guy that votes against sandy aid for others, but then begs for aid for his own state, it's just, you know, why people hate politics. >> it is. and anyone who doesn't live their life through the lens and prism of politics, of course chris christie welcomed the president of the united states. the idea that it was chris christie's hand shake, as the president stepped off that helicopter, his hand shake that cost mitt romney the 2012 election was now and still is a dumb political analysis. we heard vivek ramaswamy during the debate, give me a hug just

like you gave barack obama. that was of course, former new jersey governor chris christie criticizing ron desantis for not meeting with joe biden when he visited florida to survey the damage caused by last week's hurricane there. we are now into our fourth hour of "morning joe." we begin with the stiffest punishment handed down so far to anyone involved with the january 6th capitol the former national leader of the proud boy sentenced to 22 years in prison. this surpassed the 18 years given to the oath keepers founder. he offered apologies to law enforcement and to residents of washington for his involvement that day. he asked the judge to show mercy and vowed he's done with politics. that wasn't politics, of course,

that was violence. but the judge said he mobilized a group of 200 men amped up for the battle, adding -- >> his lawyers sought leniency, arguing their client was a misguided patriot who wasn't even at the capitol that day. he was at a baltimore hotel watching it unfold. but here he is the night before the attack in a garage meeting with leaders of the oath keepers. he was arrested about 48 hours before the attack because of his actions at a previous pro trump event in washington. his sentence followed four other proud boy members who received substantial prison terms, far below what prosecutors wanted. joining us now, ken dilanian and msnbc legal analyst neil katia.

ken, i'll start with you. surprise in either direction by these sentences, that it wasn't the 33 years sought by prosecutors or it wasn't closer to some of the other sentences we have seen for the proud boys and oath keepers? >> i was surprised last week when this judge departed downward significantly from what the prosecution wanted. the guidelines were much higher than the judge was willing to sentence them to. once he set the standard, 22 years made sense. he gave tarrio the longest sentence, but it leaves room for prosecutors to appeal. they filed a notice that they would appeal the 18-year sentence to stewart rhodes because they said it's not long enough. appeals by the prosecutors of sentences are rare.

let's step back. the average murder sentence in the united states is around 20 years. they were not accused of murder, but what prosecutors would say is they tried to murder american democracy. there was nobody more responsible for the violence on january 6th, according to prosecutors, than the proud boys. they led all the significant breaches. smashing a window with a police shield. tarrio wasn't there but he was exhorting them. he said make no mistake, we did this. while he showed remorse before being sentenced, while the jury was deliberated, he did an interview online where he said the proud boys did nothing wrong. >> so this man was not at the capitol that day, he wasn't there committing the violence that we are watching unfold there, but the message sent here by the jury, by the prosecutors, by this judge is being a general, being someone who leads and dictates the actions of those who did commit the

violence, holds a stiff prison sentence. what do you read into that and what it means perhaps for others even higher up the chain? >> it means a ton, and that is the million dollar question. so this is the longest sentence yet in the january 6th attacks. it's about four years more than the prior highest sentence. and tarrio was the leader of those who invaded the capitol on january 6th. as you say, his defense was, hey, i wasn't even on the scene, and he still got a whopping 22-year sentence. so a guy who is not on the scene, what does the leader of the leaders, donald trump, what should he get? i think that's why this sentence is so significant, because judge kelly, who is a very conservative judge, a very respected judge, you know, basically gave very, very high sentences here. given that, if you are a judge

in the donald trump case, and he is convicted, and of course, he's entitled to presumption of innocence and the like, but if convicted, we are looking at a very, very serious sentence. >> yeah, that's quite a precedent for that. so we will be watching that. in georgia, all 19 co-defendants in the fulton county election interference case have waived their arraignment appearance and pled not guilty. there will be a hear thing afternoon to consider the requests of two defendants who are looking to sever their cases from the rest. joining us live in fulton county, georgia, our legal contributor katie fang. good morning. what do we expect to see today? >> reporter: so at 1:00, the judge is asking the d.a., fani willis, to come to court and explain what would it look like in terms of timing, exhibits, and witnesses to try all 19 defendants at the same time.

there are several defendants that have moved to sever their cases. in addition to providing that information, the court ordered the d.a. to explain what would it look like if we separated these defendants and tried them separately as will happen october 23rd. so i would like for everybody to envision the following. if you have just sidney powell and kenneth being tried together in october, you will begin a jury trial process that starts with jury selection to a conclusion of a verdict, and then fani willis, would rinse, lather and repeat for each of the defendants. but right now, there's six pending motions to sever, and the judge should have some addressing of those issues today. >> talk to us about where the trump case stands. there are so many defendants here, there's a sense there could be delays added because if, indeed, things get

separated. where do things stand just for the former president in terms of his case, what we know? >> reporter: so donald trump filed a motion to sever and said i don't want to be tried with the specific defendants who have asked for a speedy trial. and that would be sidney powell and kenneth cheseboro. there's a burden for people who want to sever their cases, that they would sustain a prejudice. i don't anticipate that happening. but to your point, i think it's important to this, there are built-in delays that exist no matter what. if you consider the number of witnesses, the issues. the number of defense attorneys is going to be an issue in this case, as well. >> katie phang, thank you so much. we will be watching the katie phang show weekend mornings here

on msnbc. so just to listen to her begin to describe what is playing out down there, severed cases, jury selection is taking eight months for one case in particular. >> that's right. >> how is this going to play out, how long will this take? >> i think it's fair to assume this will one take a while. that's the consequence of bringing this case against 19 indictments, 41 counts, all these defense lawyers, filing all these motions. there's no way that all 19 defendants can be tried at the same time. what would that look like in a courtroom? how do you pick a jury eight months in this other racketeering case by the same office? i don't think anyone should count on this case. we will see jack smith bring a similar case against only donald trump in a washington, d.c. courtroom much sooner. >> how do you see all this playing out? >> yeah, i think that's basically right. jack smith has taken the opposite approach from fani

willis by basically streamlined indictment, it's lean and mean, going right after him and presum bli maybe five or so of the other co-conspirators, who may be indicted. but georgia is a lot more sprawling. ken cheseboro, his trial is october 23rd. i suspect that could happen. i think what donald trump is terrified of being troyed on that date. he will do everything possible to sever, that is, be tried separately, from cheseboro and anyone else. he'll fight tooth and nail. but the default in our system is joint trials. it's a much more efficient thing. to force 19 separate trials is itself very timely. so i can imagine this folding out into two to three trials. i still think it's entirely possible for everything to take place before the '24 election, and it should. this is the american people's

right to know what happened. >> it's important to know that if you look at polls, americans overwhelmingly want to see donald trump tried before the 2024 election, because they want to know if they're voting for a convicted felon or not. that seems very fair for republicans, democrats, and independents. but yeah, i think georgia is going to be backed up about as much as a traffic going out of birmingham, which is my way of saying, oh, my god, you went to burning man. >> that's impressive. yes, joe, i did go. it was my first time. you know, i thought it was an amazing thing. obviously, if you look at me, burning man people aren't exactly my people. but i saw a beautiful, caring community, with amazing art and amazing music. >> willie? >> there's a photograph of neil making his way out that we need to play. there he is.

there he is, making his escape from burning man. >> during the escape, i was mud covered in all sorts of stuff. that's when it was sunny and nothing to worry about. but the escape was actually, you know, quite dangerous. when i got out, i did want to use my social media platform to alert others, even someone like me, it was tough. just wanted to make sure of that. >> glad you and most everyone else got out. let's bring in reporter josh gerstein. josh, good morning. who are we talking about here? >> in the first instance and the most high profile one, we're talking about mark meadows. you know, that hearing that was held in federal court last week about trying to move some or all of this georgia case that you were just discussing into the federal court system, i thought some of the most striking

comments by meadows' defense attorneys at that hearing were when they tried to start to put a little distance between him and donald trump and tried to minimize meadows' role, even if it was at the price of, you know, maximizing trump's role. it really struck me that criminal trials are a serious business. you're talking about people potentially having to go to jail. if that means pointing the finger directly or indirectly at a co-defendant, you do what you need to do. >> josh, mark meadows to this point, had been very loyal to the former president. even disavowing the contents of his own book once donald trump deemed them fake news. but this is how this works, right? people lower on the totem pole flip on the people above. and the only person above mark meadows is trump. how worried are trump's lawyers right now? >> they have to be concerned about the array of people that will come up, not only in the

georgia case, but you were discussing the federal january 6th case. you have the trial up in new york on the hush money charges, and also the classified documents case down in florida there. we already saw another person who could have been a co-defendant in that case. somebody who worked as an information technology manager down there at mar-a-lago abruptly change his testimony when it became clear to him that he might be charged with perjury, and he's now viewed as one of the key witnesses for the prosecution. so i think that donald trump's lawyers have to be very concerned that they're going to see a number of individuals ultimately take the stand. maybe the 19 people down in georgia, one of the reasons we don't have trials for all of them, because maybe some of them do deals to turn on the higher-ups in those set of charges. >> is there an expectation by prosecutors, that as they move forward, it becomes clear that you might go to prison for a guy

that doesn't give a damn about you. take the i.t. guy who in that indictment was asked to delete camera footage so they couldn't see boxes moving around. is there expectation that more of these co-defendants, more of these witnesses will flip? >> on the one hand, i would say yes, absolutely. on the other hand, i've been asking folks about people like walt nata. he's facing a prison sentence, yet he's remaining loyal and his lawyers are paid for by donald trump. you ask prautprosecutors why? they say loyalty. people are willing to go to prison. they have seen it in mob cases and other cases. yes, they do hope and expect some will flip, but others just won't. >> and they may believe that if donald trump is re-elected, they will be taken care of. another piece you have out, appeals court limiting special

counsel's access to scott perry's phone. remind us why he's an important figure in this. >> he was definitely a figure in the days leading up to january 6th in donald trump's efforts to overturn the election results. we know that he was also involved in trying to orchestrate efforts on capitol hill to slow down that process and prosecutors have been trying for, i don't know, probably more than a year now, to get access to his telephone records from that day. it may also involve his emails and other kinds of text messages, those sorts of communications. there's been a battle largely fought out behind the scenes, because it does involve grand jury demands going on in court now for many months, even before special counsel jack smith was named by the justice department to take over this case. we had a ruling yesterday that seems to uphold speech or debate privilege for much of mr.

perry's communications. so we'll have to see whether that decision holds up, maybe in enbank from the d.c. circuit or possibly this gets taken to the supreme court. >> josh gerstein, thank you so much. a pam of federal judges yesterday struck down the latest congressional map created by alabama republicans. it includes only one majority black district, which defies a u.s. supreme court order where the supreme court told the state it had to redraw its map and have two districts where black voters were the majority. gop lawmakers in alabama plan to appeal yesterday's decision back to the supreme court. meanwhile, a court appointed special master now has until september 25th to submit three new potential maps. neil, i'm just -- i mean,

just -- i can't say i'm shocked or surprised at the arrogance, and just the outright defiance of the alabama state legislature. but it was just outright defiance of a supreme court ruling. i mean, it's just this side of lawlessness. >> yeah, that's right. those of us who practice before the supreme court, you win cases, you lose them, but you always respect the decisions of the united states supreme court. we don't want to go back to the days of little rock in 1957 in outright defiance. unfortunately, what alabama was doing here was outright defiance. and this very conservative panel of three judges rejected, you know, the map yesterday, just as they had the one last year. you know, it's surprising to me that alabama is trying to now -- they said they're going to take

this case to the united states supreme court. you know, we know what's going to happen. >> we'll be watching. former acting u.s. solicitor general neil katia, and ken dilanian, thank you. coming up, elon musk says the anti-defamation league is trying to kill x, formally known as twitter. he is threatening a possible lawsuit. we'll talk to the head of the adl about those comments. and the possibility of a second trump presidency has allies and adversaries wondering what the future of u.s. foreign policy will be in 2025 and beyond. we'll discuss the fears of our allies and hoping of our rivals. plus, demand for mortgages hits a 27-year low and interest

rates surge. we'll break down what the numbers mean for the future of home ownership in america. that's all up next on "morning joe." "morning joe. ayour car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference.

just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled.

we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. i may be known for my legendary football career, but truth is, i love a bunch of sports. the only trouble is knowing where to find them. that's why i got xfinity. so, i can easily find and watch whatever sport i'm into all in one place without missing a thing. even if it's football, australian football, or football football. in a word—it's fitz-credible. i got to trademark that one. this season, eligible xfinity rewards members can get up to $100 off

nfl sunday ticket from youtube. sign up for xfinity rewards now. here in the bay, our cars take s and all of our stuff where we want to go. but, our cars can't take us e with unpaid tolls. vehicles with overdue, unpaid tolls may not be able to renew their registration until outstanding balances are paid. payment assistance is available. visit bayareafastrak.org/ase so go pay your unpaid tolls y and keep your wheels on the !

welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful look at seattle. it never rains in seattle, does it? it pours, man, it pours. that's a really, really deep, early 1970s albert hammond reference that the tw of you may appreciate. let's go to business before the bell before i ramble completely off the cliff here. i want to bring in the anchor of cnbc's "squawk box." andrew, i want to talk to you about mortgages. but there's something else that we need to talk about today. i've been listening. i've just been watching over the

past couple of weeks, oil creep up a little bit more and a little bit more. and now, it looks like it might be moving to $100 a barrel. so what's going on? >> look, it's up about 25% since june at this point. so you're not just seeing things, joe, if you go to a gas station, you notice it and you're seeing the stock prices of energy prices, as well. it's a supply issue. saudi really stepped back, russia also obviously, given all the issues that were confronting with them. so there's just less supply, and there's more need for it than ever, and that's really what seems to be happening. at the same time, you would think yesterday, we were all talking about china and the economy there, which we think is on the down swing. you would think that would alleviate some of the pressure on oil. but it hasn't. so the real question, it's a political question for the biden administration, and for the

country, how do you help get prices down? well, one of the ways to do that is maybe to ease up, oddly enough, this is on the table, what do you do about iran and places like venezuela, is that where this oil will have to come from to keep the price from continuing to go higher, especially as we get into the hinter months? >> yeah. and let's talk about mortgages now. the drop right now, the demand drops to a 27-year low. interest rates are still higher than they have been traditionally. and for young people, and for everybody, it's just really hard to find a home out there, suspect it? >> it is super expensive. and it's pricing a lot of people out of the market. the cost of your mortgage is now that much higher. we're talking on a 30-year mortgage, up over 7%. so there's the possibility that we are about to enter, i don't

know if it's a decade, but a several year long period, which could be considered sort of a zombie real estate market because people don't want to sell because they would have to sell at a loss, and people can't afford to buy and provide profits to folks. the question is, there are a lot of folks who still got a.r.m.s, these five, seven, ten-year mortgages. is there a moment of which those interest rates will reset on them? they got them down when they were 2%, 3%. all of a sudden they're going to get hit with a much higher interest rate. and do they have to say, i have to sell this property in distress? i don't think we're there, so it could become this zombie market where people just wait until things hopefully get better that's the sympathetic regeneris expectation or hope.

>> meanwhile, elon musk is considering suing the anti-defamation league for lost advertising revenue for x. he wrote on x -- >> he claims ad revenue is down 60% in the u.s. because of that, adding he's against anti-semitism of any kind. in may, the adl said the platform does not do enough to combat hate speech, as researchers found thousands of anti-semitic posts after musk gained control of the site and reinstated previously banned accounts. joining us now here in the studio, the ceo of the anti-defamation league, jonathan greenblatt. so it looks like elon musk overpaid maybe by 2 x for something he wanted in twitter. he allowed extremists back on the site. you have documented how the anti-semitism has come back to twitter in waves.

so revenue is down, and he blames you to which you say what? >> well, look, i mean, i can't tell you exactly why elon is doing this, but what i can tell you is many of the claims he's making are just wrong. so i've never accused him of being anti-semitic. the platform itself isn't inherently anti-semitic. i would challenge him to find an add verytizer that we pressurized. the truth is, there is a problem on the platform. it's not unique to twitter, but twitter has uniquely, in the last six to nine months, brought on all these different extremists and antiantisemites. >> it looks like the website has tanked and he needs a scapegoat.

>> and a scapegoat with so much anti-semitism behind it. so talk to us, as you watch twitter, how has it changed in the musk era? and you're not saying that he himself is anti-semitic, but tell us how you see that site give cover to them. >> there's no doubt that twitter has ever been good, under the previous management we had lots of problems, as well. but we have seen a lot of these extremists have been rematt formed. you just have to open up your phone and see what's happening. put in the #bantheadl. look, the world would be a better place if twitter was less full of hate. the world would be a better place if it was safer and better.

but after i met with her, the white se supremists went wild. what they brought to their march came from twitter. >> it was unbelievable. so andrew ross sorkin, help me out here. tell me where elon musk is in regards to x, twitter x. i remember before hand on the show, asking why would he do this? this makes no sense for him business wise. this is a nightmare. he shouldn't do this. why aren't people stopping him from doing this? why aren't his lawyers stopping h imfrom doing this? this is going to be a nightmare. even i couldn't imagine that it would be this bad of a nightmare, andrew. so is there anybody in his orbit

that can talk about an exit strategy so one of the most brilliant creators of our time can get back to creating things and changing lives instead of being down in some social media mud pit? >> i think that's frankly what she's trying to do and been brought on to do. but at the same time, there's this great conundrum that elon musk has created himself, which is he wants this to be this full-on free-speech platform. at the same time, he needs money, revenue from advertisers. and irrespective of what you think you're seeing on this platform, advertisers are voting with their pocketbook. they're looking at what they see on twitter and deciding that they think it's not a brand safe place to be. and how those two worlds, this

free speech, anything goes kind of world, even if it's limited, and i know they have talked about making that limited, but even if it exists on the platform at the same time that brands have to pay or want to pay or don't want to pay in this case, to be near the stuff, you know, how you make a business out of that is a real question. and that's what they're grappling with right now. >> so andrew, i'm going to ask you, i want to throw this open to everybody, because something fascinating has happened. a lot of people, it jumped over the threads, and everybody on this show will tell you, twitter was always extraordinary for its news feed, even when things went crazy on there. i would still get my news feed from there and learn in five minutes what i needed to know for at least half a day. it's pretty crazy. i went over to threads, and i'll

be honest, i'm jumping back and forth. but i don't see the same vitality on threads. i can't get the same news feed on threads. there's still, even from the left, not the engagement on threads that there till is on x. so i'm not on either one of them a whole lot, but i'm curious, we have this huge threads explosion at the beginning. it seemed to have died down, and i can just say as a user, there's no -- maybe donnie or somebody talked about squeezing the juice from something. there just doesn't seem to be juice on threads right now. >> i don't disagree with you. i had the same experience. i think they might have one more bite at the an toll switch things on. they have made a converted effort and been public that they don't want to engage with the news media and for it to be a platform like that, or at least that's been what they have been saying. they haven't really engaged with

the sports community. so if you wanted to do twitter nba or twitter fl or what shot, that hasn't moved over there. if they want to do that, they still have a chance, given how big the audience for instagram is. and if they came out with threads 2.0 and they had all the features that twitter had, remember, when it first started, i think they would have a shot. but it's a one shot at this point more if they will make it work. i don't know directionally if that's what they want to do at this point, to be honest. >> andrew, thanks so much. so jonathan, let's talk about the real world impact of this, of having the richest man on the planet cheering along, ban the adl. he was liking that stuff, responding to it, blaming you guys for the failure of the company he bought. and also have a former president of the united states, a man who wants to be president again, at least creating space for this,

if not saying it explicitly. what are the real world implications oh of that? what have you seen change? >> we know this because we track it, and extremists feel emboldened. it's interesting this is happening why we have these sentences being handed down on january 6th. but qanon theorists, hardened antisemites, all of these people who were under rocks before are now out in the open. so when you have nazis chanting, ban the adl, when you have bomb threats against jewish institutions, that's why the community is on edge, and why adl will not shrink. we will be ferocious in fighting hate and empty threats and frivolous lawsuits don't scare us. like you said, elon musk is the wealthiest man in the world, one of the most brilliant innovators of our time, controls one of the most powerful media platforms in

the world. blaming the jews is classic scapegoating, but we won't stop fighting the hate. >> certainly giving cover to these people who are speaking more loudly. the ceo of the anti-defamation league, jonathan greenblatt, good to see you. coming up next, jose altuve on an all-time hot streak. and an update from the u.s. open, where an american pulled off a big upset last night. the united states is doing pretty well out in flushing. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. in the mood for breakfast? at denny's, the super slam is now only $7.99. come get the biggest, crispiest, fluffiest, sweetest deal in breakfast for only $7.99. and for a limited time, try our new pumpkin pecan pancake breakfast. at denny's, it's diner time.

- you like that bone? i got a great price on it. - did you see my tail when that chewy box showed up? - oh, i saw it. - my tail goes bonkers for treats at great prices. sorry about the vase. - [announcer] save more on what they love with everyday great prices at chewy. david: i'm david goldberg, a bilingual elementary school teacher and president of the california teachers association. as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. jessie: they're called community schools. david: where parents and families, students and educators are making decisions as one. damien: it's a real sense of community. leslie: we saw double-digit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. david: it's an innovation that's transforming our public schools. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. mmm, popcorn.

(alternate voice) denture disaster, darling! we need poligrip before crispy popcorn. (regular voice) let's fix this. (alternate voice) poligrip power hold + seal gives our strongest hold and 5x food seal. if your mouth could talk, it would ask for... poligrip. he sends one to center field. four in a row!

four in a row for altuve. >> that's wild. jose altuve on a historic tear. the astros second baseman hit three home runs in the first three innings last night. three at-bats in a row. that's the deal. that comes off his two home run performance on monday, including one in the top of the 9th, making him the first player since 1961 to homer in four consecutive innings. >> one the night before. >> at-bats, too. four in a row. the astros won 14-1, to move into sole possession of first place in the a.l. west. >> they underachieved for part of the season. they always have the most tall nemt that division. the texas rangers have been a good, fun story. they have had some injuries. today is the first day all season long were it to end today, the rangers would be outside the playoffs, because the mariners have also surged in

that division. the a.l. west has been terrific. we should note the yankees remain undefeated for the month of september. back to .500. >> still 18 games out of first place. so did the astros take the trash can on the road? >> you have to check nit the luggage, but you can do it. >> it's working. let's go to the u.s. open here in new york. unseeded american ben shelton on to the semifinals, after unseeding the ten seed. he's the youngest american to reach the u.s. open semis since michael chang in 1992. he now faces world number two novak djokovic, who turned pro when shelton was just a year old. over on the women's side, american cocoa goff advanced to the semifinals for the first time, playing great. she's the first teenager to reach the final four at flushing meadow since ce serena did nit

2001. the americans are doing really well here. you saw ben shelton play, 20 years old, playing with house money at this point, against djokovic. but man, that serve of his is going to keep him around. >> he's beaten two fellow americans in consecutive matches. i was there over the weekend. he ripped off a pair of 149-mile-an-hour serves. how do you think that fast? it's the highest this year's tournament by far. and one of the highest ever at the u.s. open or any grand slam. so with that serve, as good as djokovic is, he's also got a little swagger there. but djokovic will be a tough task to beat. you know, i also saw cocoa goff over the weekend win. she is playing the best she's ever played.

>> she's found something here. coming up next, our next guest lays out what america's allies fear most about a possible second trump presidency. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." ion is s ahead on "morning joe. s instruc. i saw myself in a photograph. and we were all smiling, and i looked closer, and i was like that- that's what everybody sees? i'm back, and i got botox® cosmetic. the lines were so prominent it's all i saw in the photograph, so now when i take photos, and i see myself in photos, its- it's me, i just have fewer lines. botox® cosmetic is fda-approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life-threatening condition. do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping, and eyelid swelling. tell your doctor about your medical history.

muscle or nerve conditions, and medications including botulinum toxins. as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. if you're looking for a medicare supplement insurance plan that's smart now... i'm 65. and really smart later i'm 70-ish. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier. so call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. and set yourself and your future self up with an aarp medicare supplement plan from unitedhealthcare.

age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv

. welcome back to "morning joe," a look at san diego. and look at that, picking up the albert hammond reference. he is on fire today. can't hardly wait after we talked about the bear, and now albert ham showing san diego, which i think is german, though we don't really know and perhaps will never know what exactly it means. at least that's what will ferrell tells us. let's try to raise the level of conversation a bit, it will be hard considering how low i've

taken it. but let's bring in professor of international politics at the fletcher school of law and diplomacy, tufts university, daniel dresner, bracing for trump 2.0. dan, i remembered in congress leading up to a presidential election, i figured out pretty quickly stuff just didn't happen. right now as far as international diplomacy goes, are things frozen because joe biden says, as you talk about, america is back? but everybody's going our allies are saying, wait, not so fast. let's see what happens in the next 15 months. >> well, i think it's froze in some areas of foreign policy. i mean, if you look at america's rivals, like china and russia, i think it's clear that russia's not going to really want to

engage in any negotiations on ukraine unless and until they know that donald trump's not going to be the president a year from now, because in their mind, that would be a significant break. it would mean a drying up of u.s. aid to ukraine. it would put russia in a much stronger bargaining position, and similarly, china, i think is frustrated because the biden administration has taken, frankly, a lot of the administration's -- they long for the years in which trump was managing to fray america's alliances across the pacific rim. so they're going to dig in. on the other hand, i think a lot of america's allies are going to try to cement as much of the biden administration's foreign policy as they can. this is why you're seeing nascent signs of eastern europe pen countries in france to trying to pump for ukraine to join nato. that makes it much harder for trump to reverse. on a whole, you're right, essentially what's going on is

that all countries in the world have to plan on hedging because there is the possibility that donald trump might be the president on january 20th, 2025. >> if i'm a western country and i have sensitive intel that i want to get to the united states and i look back at donald trump, what he did in one of his first meetings in the white house, basically exposed sources and methods of an ally to the russian foreign minister, i look at what he's done with intel -- you know, when he left the white house, do i really want to share that intel with the biden administration within a year of donald trump may be getting his hands on it and passing it along to whomever he wants to pass it along to? >> i think it depends on the nature of the intel. i mean, there's forms of intelligence that require immediate tactical action, and so i'm presuming that, you know, groups like five eyes and other intelligence cooperation

agreements are going to proceed without any concern about the next year. if donald trump wins in november 2024, though, yes, it would not surprise me if you start seeing our allies begin to recalibrate the amount of intelligence sharing they're going to engage with with the united states, precisely for the concerns that you laid out. you know, donald trump and intelligence secrecy don't go together very well, and so therefore you would expect not just, you know, five countries, all of nato, ukraine, other vital allies and partners to suddenly start clamming out. >> and president biden is going to make his case assuming he doesn't test positive for covid. he's still in the window there, his wife, the first lady did. talk about how the middle east is viewing this. there's been some speculation

that the president is trying to broker an agreement with israel and saudi arabia, normalize relations there, pull them away -- pull saudi arabia away from beijing. that is pretty fraught, tom friedman in the times warnings the president against. how do you think that part of the world is watching the upcoming election? >> the middle east is the one region where you can argue there are traditional american allies that might prefer a president trump to a president biden. trump's relationship with saudi arabia was reasonably strong. trump's relationship with israel was also pretty strong, although it's worth noting that trump was extremely critical of benjamin netanyahu because netanyahu congratulated biden on his election victory and of course trump continues to persist in his deluded belief that he somehow won the 2020 election. but this is an area where i suspect that, you know, particularly the gulf emirates are not going to be averse to trump winning, but that's not going to stop them from any

potential peace deal that the biden administration is proffering. what i don't think they're going to do is to put their foreign policy on hold to help donald trump. saudi arabia is always going to put saudi arabia's interests first, and that's something that i think americans in both parties need to realize as soon as possible. >> all right, and you can read the new piece at foreignaffairs.com. daniel drezner as always, thanks so much for being with us. >> that does it for this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. we'll see you back here tomorrow, stay classy san diego. . rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. ( ♪♪ ) the first fda-approved rsv vaccine. arexvy is used to prevent lower respiratory disease

from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv and over 94% effective in those with these health conditions. ( ♪♪ ) arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. rsv can be serious. talk to your doctor or pharmacist about arexvy today. rsv? make it arexvy. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley.

power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. right now on "ana cabrera reports," the secretary of state makes a surprise visit to ukraine. he is expected to meet with president zelenskyy very soon. this trip coming just hours after a new round of russian air strikes. we'll take you live to kyiv. plus, a high stakes and televised hearing now just hours away in georgia, what we could learn today about how quickly the fulton county case will move for donald trump and his 18 co-defendants. also ahead, schools closed again today as the manhunt for an escaped killer enters day seven. more