charges in what they refer to here as the firearm information. there were two separate criminal cases started at around the time that hunter biden was expected to plea. those tax charges have been withdrawn. there is some expectation that they will refile those perhaps in a different jurisdiction. you'll remember david weiss now has authority from the -- from the attorney general to proceed in other jurisdictions here. this is in the firearm case. hunter biden had a firearm while he was in possession of narcotics. >> got it. merrick garland made david weiss a special counsel a few weeks ago, lisa, thank you investment. that's going to do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. today we saw the first televised standoff in the case brought by fulton county district attorney fani willis against the

disgraced ex-president donald trump and 18 other co-defendants in that plot to overturn joe biden's 2020 victory in the state of georgia. it was our first glimpse at the game of chicken, some of the defendants are trying to play, notably the first glimpse inside the courtroom also showed just how complicated it is to prosecute an attempted coup and each individual member that have conspiracy. the hearing was nominally about whether or not former trump lawyers kenneth chesebro and sidney powell can sever or separate their cases from the other 17 co-defendants. prosecutors for fani willis' team argue that the government is ready to make its case against all 19 co-defendants together this october. watch. >> we would contend that a trial of these 19 co-defendants will take four months, and that does not include jury selection.

there in excess of 150 witness the state intends to call. judge, we contend that we must prove the entire conspiracy against each and every one charged. each and every one charged so the court in the interest of judicial economy would have to make the decision as to whether or not the court wants to try the same case 19 times. >> so in addition to hearing from fani willis' team as you did right there, this was also the first time that we've heard from the judge in the case, scott mcafee who seems skeptical a trial of this magnitude could be dealt with in a few months. >> it just seems a bit unrealistic to think we can handle all 19 in 40 something days. that's my initial reaction, thinking of just how to get this -- and aren't we -- are we even delaying the inevitable. if we say there's no severance aren't we going to have 17 defense attorneys file motions for a continuance saying they're

not ready? >> now, ultimately judge mcafee ruled that chesebro and powell will be tried together that they could not sever from one another on october 23rd. whether or not their 17 co-defendants and that, of course, includes donald trump will be tried alongside them on that day still is up in the air. it's where we start with some of our favorite friends, let's bring in msnbc legal analyst and msnbc host katie phang, she was in the courtroom for today's hearing and joins us from the fulton county courthouse. also joining us former u.s. attorney and current msnbc legal analyst barbara mccade and former assistant director of counterintelligence at the fbi, msnbc national security analyst frank figluizzi is back with us. katie phang, this appears to be a real hurdle but can you give me a nonlegal explanation of why we care about severance and what

outcome we should be rooting for in we're on the side of accountability and the rule of law? >> reporter: well, to answer your question, if you care about justice and you care about accountability, you want it to be swift. you want it to be competently done and you want it to be done in fairness and with due process considerations but certainly don't want to see justice in the form of a jury verdict in fulton county, georgia, maybe four, five years down the road. there is that saying, right, nicolle, the wheels of justice may grind slowly but they do grind and i think in this particular instance you saw for the very first time a substantive appearance from the presiding judge, scott mcafee and livestreamed for everyone to take a part of and you saw him handle the state and its arguments but the defense and their arguments and also saw the beginning of what could potentially be a division in the defendants kenneth chesebro's lawyers tried to play nice at the sandbox with sidney powell's

lawyer but making it clear they had no connection with each other let alone with the other defendants in this case. but what's critically important the idea that the judge swiftly ruled from the bench, those of us as trial lawyers always want to get a quick ruling from a judge when in court on a hearing that is this important but there are logistical, practical nightmares that cannot be ignored when it comes to the idea of trying 19 defendants together. i'll set the table for you a little bit here and for our viewers. the state could accommodate at its table only four lawyers. there were four lawyers that were sitting on behalf of the state of georgia in the first row of the peanut gallery where the rest of the public was sitting. there were only three lawyers sitting at counsel's table for the defense, two for kenneth chesebro, one for sidney powell. can you envision then the idea of a minimum of one, two, maybe more lawyers on behalf of 19 defendants sitting in that courtroom? it's not just the geography, it's not just the real estate but the idea of everything that

leads up to the trial. it's the pretrial motions. it's the idea also that there is a pending ruling from a federal judge as to whether or not removal occurs and that was a major question that was posed by judge mcafee, the first time anybody has raised it yet from either the bench or from the kind of gaggle of lawyers we speak to while here. double jeopardy attaching when you swear in a jury and end up haing jeopardy attached to a case so it's the idea that you can't try a defendant again once that jury has been sworn in. judge mcafee asking the state specifically almost be careful what you wish for if you want all 19 at the same time. what if i pick a jury and swear them in then what's pending removal or removal of defendants to federal court that come back to state court once appellate remedies are exhausted so it was a how do i manage this? how do i literally manage 19 defendants today and we'll see some additional briefing by next tuesday which is the deadline

for the state to tell the court answering questions about removal, answering questions about do you really do 19 defendants at one time and then a separate trial for kenneth chesebro and sidney powell. >> barbara, let me show you some of what this looked like in court. this is another member of fani willis' team making the argument about the evidence applying to all 19 of the defendants. >> so we've heard a lot from both defendants about they didn't know the other people, they were located thousands of miles apart. they didn't even know that the other parts of the conspiracy were going on. the case law is clear. that does not matter. of course, any time a person enters into a conspiracy they are liable for all of the acts of all of their co-conspirators. and that's it. evidence against one is evidence against all. >> this seems obvious again to me, the nonlawyer here, that

just because they were working on different parts of the coup, they were all trying to illegally overturn trump's defeat. some working in georgia, some at the justice department all doing the same thing. was that an effective presentation in your opinion from fani willis' team, barb? >> yes, in fact, you've heard this defense from a number of people. i think rudy giuliani is one who said, i don't even know some of these people i'm indicted with. how could i possibly have committed a crime with them? but what we just heard from the prosecutor there is the law and that is, you can be charged a conspiracy even if you don't know everyone else who was in the conspiracy. the question is, did you agree with others to commit this illegal act? that is also why rico is such a powerful tool for prosecutors because it brings in separate schemes all together under the same umbrella if they were united in a common scheme which is what is alleged here, so the mere fact that kenneth chesebro may not know sidney powell and may not have been working on the

same piece of this case, it doesn't matter legally whether they are in the same trial or not and so i don't think the argument that they should be severed from each other is going to matter much to the judge. >> frank, i want to show you, i don't like to let these conversations dove too deep into process without doing what deputy district attorney will wooten did was to remind the court there are real victims here. let me show you that. >> part of this rico conspiracy involves victims. there are victims in this case that were targeted by members of the enterprise and their lives were turned upside down and that's an important part of this case and having those people come and testify multiple times over and over would both inconvenience but more importantly traumatize them. >> none of us talks enough, we try, around here to talk about the victims, but the witnesses in this case are the ones we hear from a lot, people like the elected officials in the state,

brad raffensperger, brian kemp but also the victims of the most heinous parts of the lies that were told, people like ruby freeman and shaye moss. talk about that argument from fani willis' team. >> yeah, this goes back in a way to what katy has just said, which is this issue of justice delayed, the swiftness of justice being delivered. not only for all of us writ large who need our democracy preserved as quickly as fairly possible, but because of the victims, and the threat that is faced when you've got people who already have a track record of lashing out to witnesses in this case and it doesn't appear to be stopping. we're seeing it on the federal side, as well, with jack smith and telling the court, trump himself is posing a threat, tainting a jury pool, so we're seeing it here, as well. the longer this goes on and gets delayed and i think today taking

all of this process in small bite, i think today is a win for the prosecution, because severance, if nothing else, will further delay the process and make it less likely, by the way, for the prosecution to wing. i think chesebro was all about saying, i want no part of this crazy over here. this woman has been adjudged by people who have worked with her, at the white house as, quote, crazy, quote a nutcase, unquote, not my words but others' words. i don't want any part of her. i'm not sitting with her in the front row of any courtroom there's a jury sitting in and i think he lost and i think the prosecution won today but, yes, swiftness goes toward the threat picture and the risk picture for witnesses and for everyone else. >> that's a great way of sort of analyzing and translating what happened in court today, frank, and i want to bring that back to you, katie phang. i mean, is there something as obvious as sidney powell is so

flagrantly compromised as an actor in this whole thing that nobody wants to stand trial alongside her? >> reporter: yeah, and so you would have expected more an invocation of the big figure of donald trump, the guy that was kind of the ringleader but today's hearing was concentrated on the idea by kenneth chesebro's lawyers that sidney powell, the crazy kraken lady had so much to do in the case but they were trying to do it so delicately to make sure they didn't cross wires with their fellow defense attorney sitting at the table but it ends up being guilt by association. if you envision at a trial these defendants sitting next to each other in very close proximity physically there is this idea that a jury will look at them and say it doesn't seem credible there was no communication, no coordination, no contact even though the law as barb says is clear. the evidence against one is evidence against all which is

what the state said and so to take sidney powell, for example, they made her out to be somebody who was only involved in coffee county but even then in a limited sense and for kenneth chesebro they called him the intellectual participate. that he only was intellectually involved so you're seeing a lot of, i was doing nothing wrong, i was minding my own business and suddenly i got swept into this huge net of a rico conspiracy argument and that's going to be the first of many times we'll hear it. a common theme we saw that came out today and you can bet your bottom dollar you'll hear it every time people go to court. >> it was a coup not a physics equation. i mean, the idea that mr. -- is this chesebro or chesebro? can you give us a final verdict on the pronunciation of his name first, katie phang? >> reporter: well, a typical lawyer answer is maybe because his lawyer in court today said it was -- i'm serious, i'm going to do attribution. his lawyer said it was chesebro,

but then one of his lawyers in the 1/6 case said it's chesebro and so i think it's a free for all. pick whichever one you want. >> that's fantastic. his own two attorneys pronounce it two different ways. i don't feel so bad. barb, let me come back to you. this argument in katie's analysis, the argument is they would be separated from the kraken lady because he was just the intellectual force behind the coup. it was all cheating, all overturning democracy and all that the judge in the enrique tarrio trial was saying, they were all in it up to their eyeballs. >> as we heard that assistant prosecutor say in the courtroom today, they're going to have to prove this whole conspiracy every time they come to court and they said it's probably going to take four months to do it so as many different groups as go to trial we'll see that

again and again so the idea i don't want to be associated with sidney powell because she was involved in allegedly computer intrusion in coffee county is all coming in anyway and the jury will hear about the whole enterprise and aspects of the crime and be asked to decide the guilt or not guilt of kenneth chesebro and sidney powell if those two are together, but the evidence they hear is going to be the same in every case. so i don't think that argument about spillover evidence from sidney powell is going to be persuasive to this judge because it's going to exist whether they're in the same trial or not. >> you know, frank, there are a lot of elements of this part of the process that are opaque, i think, to nonlawyers and people that don't go to a courtroom to do their job. but dollar parallel, right? i'm a big fan of "the wire" and talked about this before, the stringer scene where he says you don't take notes on a criminal

conspiracy. there are things that these charged criminal, these 19 co-defendants in what fani willis charged a criminal enterprise are dumb by even criminal standards. that's all of the evidence in writing, all of the emails with multiple people on it, the meetings that reporters stumbled into carrying on a fraudulent process of sending fake electors that the people describing themselves as the intellectual ones behind the cow were oshth straighting in multiple states. at the end of the day what do you make of the strength of the evidence and the probability that once presented all of these defendants are still in a lot of legal jeopardy? >> it is the brazenness, isn't it, that really takes us all aback and it's -- they got it from their leader donald trump who was committing crimes in plain sight, lying daily to us all at rallies and press conferences and so it's that brazenness that's tripped them up. i think specifically of coffee county coming in on a holiday.

it was like a long weekend, maybe it was mlk day or some other holiday weekend when the coffee county elections office was closed, yet we see them coming in, it's opening up for them on a holiday weekend and they're going in, it's brazen out in the open. they don't care, there's cameras, witnesses. now, what would be interesting if their defense counsel decides, you know what, i'll use that brazenness and say, would they be taking all these notes? would they be going in on a holiday weekend conspicuously if, indeed, they thought they were doing something wrong? i don't think a jury or judge is going to buy that, but it's noteworthy to say they've adopted the same kind of approach to criminality as donald trump has. it's kind of a trickle down theory of criminality. >> i mean, katie, that has been true in the public arena, but i think there's also some analysis in politico yesterday from kyle

chaney and josh gerstein that is getting hot in the kitchen, if you will, that people are now taking that dynamic and starting to flip and tell stories about doing it all at the direction of donald trump. how was that impacting things on the ground there? >> reporter: well, it's hard to ignore people like yuscil taveras who was the trump employee and mar-a-lago classified dox case that once he got his own lawyer who was not paid by the trump pac that he was able to find jesus and basically flip on his co-defendants and cooperate with the government. we are so early on in this process here in fulton county, we just had arraignments this morning where everybody filed written waivers of appearance. today was the first substantive opportunity for us to see how people are going to work and there was literally two defendants that were the subject of the hearing today. let me also note, nicolle, in the peanut gallery there were lawyers for the other defendants present. they also wanted to gauge the strength of fani willis' case,

the kind of litigation chops that were going to be on display from the state but i want to note something. when i was at the meadows evidentiary hearing there was an amazing moment of cross-examination i know you covered, nicolle, where mark meadows denied having anything to do with the fake elector scheme and basically on cross-examination, the state of georgia whips out an email that shows him forwarding to jason miller and the trump campaign a kenneth chesebro -- excuse me, yeah, kenneth chesebro memo and the reason why i say that we haven't seen that, nicolle, in any of the public evidence and so when the state's discovery comes out over the next week to ten day, i would be stunned if we didn't see more of this smoking gun evidence. you cannot underestimate a prosecutor like fani willis whose bread and butter has been rico prosecution and so there was also john floyd today at the state's defense table, excuse me, the state's table. he is like a rico guru and he has been working as a special

counsel with the d.a.'s office and so they know how to do rico here in georgia. >> i think it's a really important piece of reporting that you've just shared with us, katie, that we don't know what we don't know about what any of the prosecutors have in terms of evidence but something we talked about for eight years now is that the bar for any prosecutor to bring and to charge an ex-president is so high, that internally there is a lot of pressure to make sure that the evidence is overwhelming and i think you're talking about a couple of examples of that, katie phang, you've made the most sense of all of this to me today. barbara, you too and frank, katie phang, thank you for starting us off. barbara and frank, stick around. we'll turn to the mar-a-lago case katie is talking about, the one brought by special counsel jack smith. there are new revelations about how trump was warned about keeping classified documents from the justice department. plus, why jack smith is sounding the alarm about the ex-president's very public social media posts and later in the show, the gop's

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we're learning more about what makes up the heart of the government's obstruction case against the ex-president in the classified documents probe. the conversations between trump attorney evan corcoran and his client four times indicted ex-president. nbc news reports that trump was, quote, warned by one of his lawyers in may of last year that the fbi could search his

mar-a-lago estate in florida if he did not comply with the grand jury's subpoena that requested the return of classified documents. trump was informed of the possibility of an fbi search by attorney evan corcoran who met with trump at mar-a-lago shortly after the subpoena was issued. abc news first reported on wednesday. abc has reviewed transcripts of recordings made by corcoran about his interactions with his client, donald trump. before we go further it's worth noting we already know a lot of what's in the recordings because jack smith's indictment of donald trump tells us that's in them. according to prosecutors last year trump told corcoran this, i don't want anybody looking through my boxes. i really don't. i don't want you looking through my boxes. that's what he said when corcoran told him he'd have to look for classified documents at mar-a-lago and then hand them over to the justice department. but there's more. there's always more. abc news reports this about corcoran's meeting with trump in may 2022. quote, in a private poolside

conversation during a break at mar-a-lago, that day, according to corcoran's recordings, trump attorney jennifer little relayed to him what she was told herself by two other trump attorneys, that trump would, quote, go ballistic, over complying with the subpoena. that there's no way he's going to agree to anything and he was going to deny there were any more boxes at all corcoran recalled in his recordings. the transcripts obtained by abc news also reveal that trump was dragged kicking and screaming into even letting corcoran search the basement storage room at mar-a-lago at all. trump told corcoran this, quote, i've got boxes in my basement that i really wouldn't want you to go through. that's weird. according to the justice department trump's co-defendants then removed dozens of boxes, all of it caution on security cameras from the storage room with the express purpose of hiding classified material and documents from evan corcoran

and, therefore, the justice department. the revelations from the corcoran recordings come as the classified documents case makes its way through the legal process. as we mentioned earlier an attorney for trump's valet, that's walt nauta, his co-defendant revealed that an i.t. worker at mar-a-lago, his name is yuscil taveras struck a cooperation agreement with the special counsel this past summer after he switched lawyers. now, taveras' testimony before a grand jury formed the basis for a lot of the new allegations made in that superseding indictment against trump and his two co-defendants that broke on a friday in july, i remember. joining our conversation is "the new york times" washington correspondent glen thrush, barbara and frank are still with us. glen, let's do taveras first then we'll do the tapes. there are always tape, comey was right about that. we knew this and i think you helped talk us through it but we knew that taveras had likely

become a cooperator. this is just a filing that puts it in black and white for all of us to see that he did indeed enter into a cooperation agreement with the justice department. do we have that right? >> yeah, it seems to be that he's been cooperating for a significant period of time and what this all kind of points to, we've been focusing quite rightly on january 6th stuff particularly with what's going on in fulton county, but the florida case, the mar-a-lago case just over and over again just seems to be far more black and white and even though it's timetable seems to be more delayed than any of the other proceedings, at least prima facie and talking to a lot of former prosecutors and current defense attorneys seems to be very, very difficult case for trump to get out of. >> and that is because the cooperators are people who were initially involved in the obstruction that is because the recordings make clear that trump

wanted to hide things and wanted to enlist everybody including his criminal defense attorneys to help him hide things and lie to the government. >> well, you know, in addition to having all these witnesses kind of roaming around, you have a defense attorney who was recording and taking detailed memoir-type notes. i mean, this is what happens when you have a turnstile legal defense team. you know, evan corcoran had been out of the game in terms of a defense attorney for years and was short of thrust almost by happenstance into trump's world. it was an opportunity for a guy who had been out of the game to make extra money to become kind of nationally famous, we're talking about him now, and this is what happens when you kind of pick up your, you know, defense attorneys in the same way that, i guess, you would, you know, buy any other commodity, so it's -- it is astounding to me, you know, a part of all the

extraordinary elements is this, it's astounding to me that trump's own defense attorney has this wealth of this was and just shows you how laser focused smith and his team were in terms of breaking down the attorney/client privilege. that was a massive, massive victory that they had several months back in terms of piercing privilege and gaining access to this information. >> and, barb, i mean, when we see what trump's attorney had on him, it's abundantly clear why, i mean, the crime fraud exception is something that was explained to us many years ago in beginning to cover efforts to hold donald trump accountable. it became obvious what that is and why it exists when this case came -- became public. >> yeah, i think this new report something interesting because abc has accessed the recordings themselves and has reported some more detail about all of it and ordinarily it would be protected, as you say, by the attorney/client privilege but i

think it's pretty clear why mark meadows or i'm sorry, why the lawyer here, evan corcoran, thought it was necessary to create these memos, because donald trump was saying things like why don't we just tell them i don't have any more boxs? wouldn't it be easier if i just told them that. any lawyer would be very alarmed to hear that from a client because what he is proposing is obstruction of justice and a lawyer doesn't want to be involved in that. they are telling him, no, they could come search. you need to take this seriously. why don't i go through the boxes for you and i'll take care of all this but he felt the need to memorialize because he did not trust donald trump to comply with the law and turns out his instincts are right. it is important they got a great win at the early stages of this in the grand jury investigation. it would not surprise me to see donald trump raise this issue again before judge cannon in florida as to whether this evidence should be admissible at trial and it's a very important part of the case. >> interestingly, frank, don mcgahn before evan corcoran

thought to not just take his own notes but have his personal chief of staff take notes of everything that went on and everything that trump directed the white house counsel's office to do during the trump presidency. i want to turn to what the recordings reveal about the classification, because i think anyone that's ever been around government thought it was asinine and bat bleep crazy even for the white house to say trump deemed everything declassified. that any piece of paper that traveled from the oval to the residence was deemed declassified. that's lludicrous. that's not how it works. you can't move paper and say, so it is, and it turns out people that were skeptical of any standing order would be correct or so evan corcoran's recording suggests. this was on the transcript. this is from abc news. the transcripts of corcoran's recordings appear to offer new insight into how classified documents ended up in boxes at mar-a-lago in the first place, and whether trump truly believed

those documents had been declassified. as trump described it to corcoran according to the transcripts, he had a tightly practice while still in the white house, he would bring newspaper article, photos and notes to his bedroom so he could review them. he would also bring classified documents according to corcoran, quote, that's the only time i could read something and i had to read them so i could be ready for calls or meetings the next day. i think that is the first evidence of any preparation that took place. back to the transcript, quote, trump told corcoran according to corcoran's recordings however in their meeting trump insisted to corcoran that he made clear to those around him that anything that comes into the residence should be declassified. i don't know what was done, corcoran recalled trump telling him. i don't know how they were marked but that was my position. so it appears that there's evidence from corcoran's telling that even trump didn't believe there was any process. it's just what he said to hannity, he thought them. he thought this is what should happen and so that was where he got the idea that they were

declassified at all, is that how you understand it, frank? >> yeah, once again, we've got this kind of imperial notion of a presidency, it was my -- i don't know what was done, i don't know anything about the process but, boy, that was what i was thinking might be happening, is, you know, i figured everything is declassified and he's conveniently doing it after the fact explaining it to corcoran. there is a process attached to this. during my days as assistant director for counterintelligence i was in what was called an original classifying or declassifying authority with regard to fbi material. i got to designate something classified or declassify something if it had originated within the fbi. i'm familiar with the process. my initials are on documents declassifying or classifying things and so there's a process. i don't care if you're the president or not. it's a process and national archive has these long discussions with him and at first before he even left the white house pat cipollone who

was on board with the national archives saying, we know it's got to go back, it's yours, it's classified. it's not going to work. they can bring everybody to testify, kash patel and others that they saw the clair vow apartment process happening, it's not going to work. something interesting with regard to the audiotapes of corcoran, it was not so much the warning that he gave trump now just shifting gears and, hey, if you don't comply the fbi could show up here. they could get a search warrant for here. that's very interesting and the prosecution will use it but it's trump's response to that that really is valuable. at least for me. his response as you said earlier was, wouldn't it be better if we just told them there's nothing here? that's the criminal mindset. hey, the fbi can show up. hey, let's hide this stuff now, right? and someday there will be exhibits prepared by jack smith's team for a jury, these neat graphics we'll put up on, you know, easels for the jury to look at or these days showing how old i am it will be

electronically displayed and a graphically depicted time line that shows corcoran's audiotape or we'll listen to audiotaped discussions or notes that corcoran took and then we'll see video in chronological order of, you know, this kind of sisyphus rolling the stone up and back, the boxes being pushed back and forth by nauta or de oliveira and the jury will go, trump wanted to pretend they aren't there and we see the guys moving them around and an i.t. guy cooperating who will say, yeah, nauta and de oliveira, they were told trump wanted the videos gone. it will be amazing and the jury will say, this guy, this guy is done. >> yeah, glenn, i'll give you the last word. i feel like it's mean to the keystone cops to say keystone cops but these are the kind of things on the recording, trump, wouldn't it be better if we just told them we don't have anything

here? this is in the indictment. well, look, isn't it better if there are no documents when he knew there were. i don't want anybody looking. i don't want anybody looking through my boxes. i really don't. i mean, trump's intent to your earlier point about how open and shut this is and how much they have in trump's own voice, in trump's own words from trump's own attorney is staggering. >> well, the other thing about it is, let's go to the other audiotape, the bedminster tape where he essentially admits that he -- this stuff is super secret, guys and it's not been declassified essentially, so there are layers of evidence, so in addition to sort of this, you have several other examples of him making statements that including some recent public statements where he's ambiguous about it. i mean, it's really kind of -- it's really kind of remarkable and the thing that i just want to kind of emphasize about the

clarifying aspect of what a trial will do, we're getting all this stuff in increment, right? it feels like a game of clue in which you just throw all the pieces -- you take the board and throw all the pieces all over the place, so over time we're kind of forgetting about all these strands but part of what smith has done so well in a lot of these court documents is to weave this into a narrative and the trial is going to be a vehicle to take all these scattered elements that are a news story thursday and friday and pull them altogether in a powerful narrative and that is going to in addition, you know, trump is playing to a public as opposed to a legal system, that is also going to play out in public in a way i think that he might not necessarily anticipate. >> it's such a good point and i mean the only thing we have to sort of look at in that regard is the congressional probe, which their evidence sort of dribbed out but i don't think anyone realized how important their testimony and exhibits

were until the summer hearings last year. thank you so much for making sense of all this for us. coming up here, jack smith calling it a pressing matter and flagging the court to the ex-president's social media posts. we'll tell you what he's warning about next.

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disgraced ex-president's public comments could somewherely taint the jury pool in his 020 election subversion criminal case. it comes amid a fight with trump's legal team that is happening mostly under seal so we can't see much of it. but what is clear and public facing because of this filing is that jack smith believes that time is of the essence when the defendant is posting daily about the case. jack smith and federal prosecutors are pushing back on a request from trump's team for more time to respond to motions calling it, quote, particularly infeasible given the pressing matters before the court, including the defendant's daily extra judicial statements that threaten to prejudice the jury pool in this case. joining our conversation is ranell anderson. what can we not see and what do you make of jack smith's

concerns? >> well, the concerns are real ones, and they are evidenced every day with additional posts on truth certainly and other social media outpits from the former president that raise concern for prosecutors and for judges. the trial judge here is, of course, bound by the first amendment as all governmental actors are but the first amendment isn't absolute and this is especially the case when it is intention with other rights and liberties that are contained within the bill of rights. trial judges here in particular have concerns about the obligation, constitutionally that they have to preserve a fair trial and to make sure that there's an impartial jury and because of this, we pretty routinely see orders from trial judges that are limiting speech that they think is designed to

taint jury pools or to intimidate witnesses and those sorts of orders are not only not constitutionally prohibited but may be constitutionally mandated. there's one kind of order from judges that gives rise to pretty significant constitutional first amendment concerns and that's gag orders against the press in its efforts to cover criminal trials. the court has made clear as a doctrinal matter these are constitutional suspect and can only happen as a matter of last resort but when the order is against a party who has an obligation to litigate within the rules of evidence and who has an obligation not to contaminate the case with extra judicial statements, the first amendment arguments are much, much weaker. so the trial court here is going to want to keep an eye on this. you can see why jack smith is bringing it to the judge's

attention. the judge is going to want to craft arguments and orders in a way that are carefully tailored to preserve everybody's first amendment broader first amendment rights to engage in political speech, but these sorts of orders that are targeted and designed two safeguard the integrity of the judicial proceedings are pretty routine and wholly constitutional and we may well see more of them coming our way given the concerns jack smith is articulating. >> ronnell, i'm going to ask you to stick around. we have some of the things he's been posting on his social media platform in the last few days that may be precisely what jack smith is concerned about. we have to sneak in a quick break an we'll be back on the other side. side

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we're back with ronnell andersen jones. here's the promised mash-up of trump's truth social posts in the last week. yesterday he calls jack smith deranged and the prosecutor who is continuously overturned due to his overturned due to his unchanged aggression, investigating the political hacks and thugs of the highly partisan january 6th unselect committee, sort of a greatest hits attack there. yesterday shared a link to a "new york post" article about judge chutkan, questioning her fairness. fife days ago he truthed this, keep indicting your political opponent, oddly capitalized. it makes no difference for what

or why. five days ago i'm being railroaded by a highly partisan and corrupt system of injustice in all caps and on and on and on and on. where does he in your sort of expert view sort of abut the line in terms of his first amendment right to free speech and the concerns that the justice department is articulating? >> well, part of what's difficult here, right, is this isn't any other criminal defendant. if we try to characterize this in those terms, if any other criminal defendant was routinely posting on social media various critiques of the court, attacks on the parties to the judicial process, angry calls for action, those are the sorts of things that any judge in any criminal case would be warning about and any prosecutor in any criminal

case would be expressing concern about. and what we see here is a lot of caution on the part of jack smith and a lot of caution on the part of this judge. we actually only got this commentary from jack smith wrapped up in another document where he is just stating it as a factual assertion. each day this litigant continues to post material that raises the risk of tainting this jury pool further. that's a reason he says why we ought to stave off any delays here. and in these sorts of situations, there is a concern because this is a major political leader, but also that these are the kinds of things that woe whoa be clamping down on if we were in any other case. >> such brilliant context and shows once again there are two systems of justice, and he is in the system that he doesn't think he is in.

he thinks he is in a class with fewer privileges. he clearly has many, many more. thank you so much for your expertise. another break for us. on the other side, there is a new lawsuit just filed that is moving to keep donald trump off the ballot in a key state next year. we'll tell you about it after a quick break. don't go anywhere. anywhere. you. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. (vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. - the company goes to the firstborn, audrey. the model train set is entrusted to todd. mr. marbles will receive recurring deliveries for all of his needs in perpetuity, thanks to autoship from chewy. - i always loved that old man. - what's it say about the summer house? - yeah, the beach house- - the summer residence goes to mr. marbles. (mr. marbles chuckles) - plot twist! - i'm sorry, what? - doesn't make logistical sense. - unbelievable. - pets aren't just pets. they're more. - you got a train set, todd. - [announcer] save more on what they love and never run out with autoship from chewy.

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disgraced ex-president donald trump off that state's presidential election ballot in 2024. citing language in section 3 of the 14th amendment that disqualifies anyone from office who, quote, engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the constitution after taking an oath to defend it. their lawsuit specifically demands that colorado secretary of state janet griswald remove trump's name from next year republican primary ballot. for her part, griswald said this, quote, i look forward to the colorado court substantive resolution of the issues and i am hopeful that this case will provide guidance to election officials on trump's eligibility as a candidate for office. we'll stay on top of that. up next for us, the gop's relentless assault on democracy. the latest examples a the top of the next hour, "deadline: white house" after a quick break. stay with us. stay with us . but you know what is? myplan from verizon. (vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us.

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seen our judicial system up close, and i believe in something that is universal to wisconsinites all across our state, and that is that everyone should get a fair shot to demand justice and not feel like the thumb is on the scale against them. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. janet's victory in wisconsin's april election to become a justice on the state supreme court was a hugely consequential one. it meant for if first time in 15 years, liberals had the majority. issues like legalizing abortion and redrawing wisconsin's legislative maps could potentially become a reality there. well, just five weeks after the justice officially joined the court, republicans are now calling for her ouster before she has yet to hear a single case. to understand why, we'll good back to her campaign for a moment where she was very vocal about her standings on the

issues. especially abortion rights and the state's republican-drawn legislative map, which she called rigged. her passion invigorated wisconsin democrats and he is beat her opponent handily, by 11 points. now the republicans in the state are trying to undo the will of the people and are raising the specter of impeaching her. for republicans, the supreme court majority serves as an existential danger. if the court as expected invalidates wisconsin's legislative maps, i would strip republicans of what now amounts to permanent majorities in the legislature. but removing a newly elected justice could prompt a backlash in 2024 from democrats and moderate republican voters. threatening to impeach an elected official they don't agree with is just another in a series of nationwide anti-democratic moves taken by republicans recently. yesterday, we told you about the

federal court that rejected a congressional map drawn by alabama's republican-led legislature. the court ruled that the redrawn maps still violated the voting rights act. still because this was their second attempt. the state is not giving up yet. it's now appealing that ruling to the u.s. supreme court. in georgia, where the republican party's national leader was indicted on racketeering charges, republicans in that state are trying to get rid of district attorney fanni willis. these efforts strike at the heart of our democracy. they go against the principles. we heard the justice reiterate after she won. here is a little more from her victory speech. >> today's results mean two very important and special things. first it means that wisconsin voters have made their voices heard. [ cheering ] they've chosen to reject partisan extremism in this state.

and second, it means our democracy will always prevail. >> as we start this really important conversation with some of our most favorite friends. editor at large for the bulwark charlie sykes is here with us at the table. "new york times" editorial board member and msnbc contributor mara gay is back. also with us at the table, for the first time in a long time, national affairs analyst, the host of the hell and high water podcast, john heilemann is back. and staff writer at the atlantic, franklin bore is here. hopefully you'll come back after today. the author of "inside joe biden's white house and the struggle for america's future." i want to start with you, charlie sykes and what's going on in wisconsin. we have to guard against the temptation to say oh, it's shocking but not surprising when republicans resort to anti-democratic measures because

it should be shocking. it would be covered if another country were doing it. it would end up on the u.s. state department's watch list where they track how a country or a democracy is doing in terms of democratic or anti-democratic practices. and we should be just as shocked and we should track it just as meticulously when it happens in one of our own states. >> that's absolutely true. there is absolutely nothing not shocking about all of this. and i've watched this very closely. i know many of the players involved here. and what they are proposing to do, republicans, and there is tremendous momentum behind it, it seems to become now a litmus test, is to have this vote to really wipe out the votes of more than a million wisconsinites. janet pretasiewicz won the lefk by 11 points in an evenly divided state. she has not ruled in a case. but under wisconsin constitution, all it takes is a majority vote in the state assembly, which is dominated by

republicans to impeach her. now if she is tried by the senate and removed, or acquitted, if she is acquitted, she gets to stay. if she is removed, the democratic governor of wisconsin, tony ewers can appoint her successor the next day. there is no senate confirmation. but here is the wrinkle. republicans in wisconsin have no intention of having a trial. so what happens is if she is impeached by the state assembly, she is immediately suspended. she is put on the bench. she cannot rule. so what's happened is the republicans have decided they don't want there to be a liberal majority on the state's supreme court. so they are simply going to nullify the election. and there is no recourse. so it is breathtaking. and i say this as somebody that has watched the extreme partisanship of wisconsin, the overreach, the way they changed the laws after scott walker was defeated. but this is really something. and what you are seeing now is an increased willingness on

republicans at the national and state level to say, if we don't like what's happening in the courts, we will use our legislative majorities, our congressional majorities to obstruct justice and perhaps even dismantle the courts themselves. so this is going to be a very big deal. there is going to be a tremendous backlash. and it's hard to overstate the implications for wisconsin politics going into 2024. >> well, what you're describing, though, charlie, is the legislature is what's in peril, right? she would have the power to invalidate -- the state supreme court would reexamine the rigging that she describes in the election. so it is for them the same way trump's election is for him, existential, the difference being behind bars or not. it is existential for them. >> that's the way they think of it. now the fact is they would probably still control the legislature. they would probably still get majorities, but they wouldn't be

the super majorities. but the collateral damage here is considerable. it also means that after the voters have overwhelmingly elected a pro-choice justice, they're going wipe her off the bench. so this means that not just redistricting, but also issues like abortion are going to be front and center in this fight that's going take place very, very shortly. and by the way, i don't think they have the votes in the state senate to actually remove her, which then leads to this gambit of simply allowing her to sit in limbo, to go from a seven-member court to a six-member court that will be split 3-3, liberal and conservative. so we are going to become a very dysfunctional state going into this election because this court has been -- has been very much radical. the conservatives have been very much radicalized. >> it's amazing to talk about

conservatives in the state of wisconsin being radicalized. but it is absolutely the case. charlie, have i one more question for you, and then i want to broaden the conversation. in georgia, they passed a law that governor kemp signed allowing the removal of prosecutors. and kemp used his bully pulpit, it's not clear that he has any real authority in this space to say don't do it. is there a kemp in wisconsin that would say don't do it? >> well, i have to tell you there was tremendous effort over the weekend to find prominent republicans who would stand against this. and based on reporting i'm seeing, including in "the new york times," they're unable to find any prominent republican in contrast to brian kemp, who took a principled stand against this attempt to obstruct justice in georgia. former governor scott walker is all in, endorsing the removal of this liberal justice who by the way has not ruled on anything. and under the wisconsin constitution, you can only

impeach for kinds of corruption. there is no allegation of corruption. so here in wisconsin, there are no prominent republican voices saying this is the wrong thing to do. we cannot use our legislative power to attack the wisconsin supreme court. so it's a very different situation here than in georgia. >> john heilemann, i used to ask how do we get here. we know how we got here, right? republicans who saw the slide in their own party toward authoritarian practices and tools and methods sat and did nothing. that's how we got here. what it says, though, that there isn't anyone in wisconsin to stand up and do what kemp just did in georgia is chilling. and the same kind of person that wouldn't be offended by removing a duly elected supreme court justice, the same kind of person that wouldn't be other assaults on democracy. it's a window into where we are, at least in wisconsin. >> well, and everywhere.

my father was from wisconsin. we lived, grew up in wisconsin, and my father and charlie sykes would have been the kind -- my dad was liberal republican, mainstream republican who eventually ended up voting for bill clinton for the first time ever in his life. and charlie and he would have seen eye to eye. i remember in the 2016 primary, going out there, and donald trump lost the primary in 2016 in wisconsin. but he lost to it ted cruz. and the idea that those were the two dominant figures, three people running in 2016. ted cruz wins the primary. and then there is john kasich, who is the kind of governor that charlie liked. and my dad would have liked. a and the fact that wisconsin which should have been a place for progressive republicanism for generations, you looked up in 2016 and said what's going on here? first what had gone on there, before donald trump, before any of the stuff we we're talking about, scott walker. it's a good remind whatever the republican party now is that we focus intensely on trump for good reason. he has been a catalyst and an

accelerant and throwing the match on the burning gas lean and turned the whole thing into a flaming dumpster fire. but the truth is most of the trends trump capitalized were unfolding in the republican party before he came on the scene. it's what enabled him. he didn't create this problem. he capitalized on it. and when he goes, when he is no longer with us on the national scene, whether he is in jail or not in jail, whether he is just out of politics, whether he is a retiree finally, golfing in new jersey and florida, these problems in the republican party that have came before him, they're going to be around after him. the guardrails of democracy are called guardrails for a reason. when you go through them, you don't just kind of go off the shoulder of the road. you go off the cliff. there is a kind of accelerating quality to it that once you're kind of -- you become unrestrained, unmoored, unconnected to these democratic conditions, things spiral fast

out of control. and if you see this happening in wisconsin, it is happening in other forms almost everywhere, and can happen anywhere. and that's the direction when the velocity of the party now is in that direction. wisconsin is a leading indicator of just how bad it can get, even if donald trump disappeared tomorrow in today's republican party. >> and i think you're absolutely right. i want to say it carefully, because i'm not trying to three an elbow at people that have done good. but even liz cheney who did heroic work on select committee is not out for protecting democracy from fellow republicans. neither are the other republicans, people in the primary like asa hutchinson and chris christie saying that trump is clearly criminally compromised, if you will. this is not a bucket of issues gerrymandering, the rigging of maps, voter suppression, the removal of justices. these are not issues that any republican is speaking out of when all of those republicans were very willing to get behind

what is very unpopular now, but at the time none of them opposed it, and that is bush's democracy agenda to bring deem city to faraway countries. >> you and have i praised liz cheney. i'll stand it for the work she did. if you look at where she has been on the subject of voting rights and election integrity, it's a structural integrity throughout the democracy. when she was still in congress, nowhere, silent. not on the front lines with democrats and voting rights activists and advocates. not there. and it is what they call the overton window when they talk about this when you had geeks, the overton window has shifted in the republican party in a profound way. and even the rare republicans who will stand up to donald trump often are not out there fighting for the institutions and for the legal framework that is what had made the america the great beacon of democracy in the world for 200 years. >> well, shifting the overton window lets it be a story deep inside a newspaper and low in our rundown when more than just

donald trump proposes changing the fbi, making it not an independent law enforcement agency for the first time in its history. >> right. and i think about the response from people of good will on the other side. and there is so little that you can actually do in the face of a state legislature, nullifying an election. the only response ultimately is politics. it's what the wisconsin democrats are talking about is that you have to turn around in the next election and turn out your voters en masse to punish the party and to broaden your tent so that there is a coalition of the charlie sykess and the people who are alienated from this anti-democratic authoritarianism within the republican party so that they join up with this coalition. but her election to the supreme court was supposed to be that repudiation. >> yeah. >> she won by 11 points. >> right. >> and what i find so perverse in all of this, the dark, dark comedy of it all is that they're impeaching her on the grounds that she promised to save democracy in wisconsin.

>> yeah. i mean, look, to your point, this is my -- it is not the democratic party's fault that we're here. but they're the only ones that can save us. and the democratic party's response to all the voter suppression laws is well, we'll just educate our voters. we'll turn them out. it's to adjust, to adapt. and that's what the brain does, right? when it's hit, it adapts, it makes adjustments. it seems like it's a good moment to go to the country with this bigger argument about the republican party and in terms of numbers as the largest anti-democratic force on the planet. >> and it worked to some extent in 2022. there were all of these pundits who railed against joe biden for not talking more about economics and crime. and he focused his attention -- his electoral strategy on campaigning against the ultra maga republicans and defending democracy. and his big set piece speeches at the end of the campaign were about democracy. and despite inflation, despite

the economic conditions in the sense the country was on the wrong track, voters in a lot of places like wisconsin turned out to defend democracy. >> well, voters respond, the president was right on that. i think josh shapiro ran. his speech, i think it was the saturday night before the election. i believe president obama was there as well. this was the message that it is not -- i think it was about it is not freedom to take away a woman's right to choose and mandate, for the government to mandate pregnancy. it is not freedom to take away the central tenets of our democracy. >> no, that's right. i think the democratic party needs to continue to embrace and run toward that to own that as hey, we would actually like some competition. but right now we are carrying the mantle of democracy. >> we're it. >> we're it, you know. and i think it shouldn't shy away from the reality. i think over the years, as we've watched the republican party not only retreat from democracy, but essentially become weaponized to

demolish the democracy, there is a race to the bottom, and it's like watching a train wreck. it's hard to look away, but what i've become increasingly horrified by is the sense of powerlessness among those t rest of us who are living in reality. moderate republicans, never trump republicans, democrats, independents, this sense of well, what more can we do other than get more voters to the polls. and i do think the adaptation is part of it. you need to look to the civil rights movement to see how to mobilize people. but i also think it does betray the vulnerability of the american system in this moment. most western democracies a this point have constitutions and laws that have been forged in the wake of world war ii when the world came together to defeat fascism. the united states is dealing with a much older system that as beautiful as it is really needs

and relies upon good faith actors and norms. >> yeah. >> and i think when this is a fight for republicans, they don't see that anymore as of interest. they see power as their number one priority. and they'll do anything they can by any means necessary to get it, whether it means running over the democracy or hijacking it. >> this does remind me of how i think i first met you when you were a journalist and i was a republican party activist. and the norms held that republicans viewed the constitution as sake tread. they don't even pretend that's the case anymore. it can get shoved in the shredder and they'll do that live-streamed on twitter. >> it brings us back in ways, this is where you come back to trump. what trump did was basically say again and again, these aren't laws. these aren't rules. you're talk about norms. well, f your norm. >> correct. >> what's going to happen me if

i ignore your norms? what's going to be the penalty i pay? where am i going to lose? i'm going to violate these norms and see what happens. and he is getting his comeuppance now. he has all the liability counts against him. for a long time the republican party watched donald trump say hey, guys, there isn't really a guardrail here. it's an imaginary guardrail. they'll all telling you it's a restraint. what if i'm just shameless and i don't care and what's in my interest is to do whatever i want that will get me power, will get me money, will get me whatever, and we'll see what happens. and what happened for a long time was, nothing to stop him. and all republicans around the country looked up and went huh. >> i can do it too. it happens when he doesn't release his taxes. and mitt romney goes and calls the norm cops and comes. >> "the new york times" op-ed page stomps its feet and nothing happens. >> no one is going anywhere. we're discussing how american democracy has fallen so far

behind other democratic nations. yes, that sentence is true today. and what needs to be done to end the backslide and regain our standing. we'll continue the conversation next. later in the broadcast, why the anti-defamation league is calling out elon musk over what it calls profoundly disturbing threats. the adl's chief executive officer will be our guest here at the table as musk's ex, the company former known as twitter continues to platform dangerous extremist groups and content. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. where. ensun with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! uuuhhhh... here, i'll take that! woohoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar. enter the $10,000 powered by protein max challenge. ♪ ♪ ♪ shelves. shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock.

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ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy... ...and save at trelegy.com. fundamental freedoms are under attack in our country today and there is a national agenda at play by these extremist so-called leaders. it will be a national ban on abortion. it is the tradition of our country to fight for freedom, to fight for rights... to fight for the ability of all people to be who they are and make decisions about their own lives and their bodies. and we will fight for the ideals of our country. we moved out of the city so our little sophie and their bodies. could appreciate nature. but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch?

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must remember that democracy is a covenant. we need to start looking out for each other again, seeing ourselves as we the people, not as entrenched enemies. this is a choice we can make. this union and chaos are not inevitable. there has been anger before in america. there has been division before in america, but we've never given up on the american experiment. we can't do that now. >> for all that, this is what you were talking about. i want to read some of what you write in your book. "the insurrection stoked by trump's refusal to accept the outcome of the 2020 vote was the most worrying evidence of the demise of politics. witnessing such horrific behavior, it felt reasonable to ask, was it possible to cooperate with the political party that coddled trump, let alone co-exist in the same

society as the people who voted for him? biden set out to prove the eternal relevance of politics." i love that. "in fact, it was a way out of this mess. he wanted to show that deal making, coalition building and persuading the other side were still effective ways to get things done. but on certain days of his presidency, it seemed like nobody else in his country sincerely believed in his faith." i think that is so perfectly put about the view from the president. >> right. and it connects with what we're talking about, because norms exist at this elite institutional level. biden's concern and his diagnosis of the crisis goes to the actual culture of democracy that what politics is this ethos that's a set of rules. you accept results of elections. you accept sometimes you're going to lose in a democratic society, but it also privileges persuasion, compromise as the most effective and necessary means for co-existing in a society where we just simply

don't agree on most things. >> yeah. when i interviewed him here, it was a day of particularly polarizing supreme court decision. and i ask him about a comment he made it about not being a normal court and pressed him about court reform. and i think people misconstrue his reverence for the norms as sort of an unwillingness he would agree with more. his bet and his strength and maturity is the best way to strengthen the institutions to abide by the norms like it is a religion. that was my sense of his view on those. >> i think culturally he tries to practice politics and democracy in a way in which he knows isn't going to change things tomorrow, but that preserves these things so that we can maybe practice them in the future. so there were moments in the early parts of his administration where there were people in his administration who said let's just run roughshod

over this. there is no possibility of getting compromised with the republicans. and his instinct says i know there is not a great possibility of doing it, but i'm going to make the effort because, you know, we're going to need live in this country with people who don't agree with us for generations. and if i don't show that at least it's possible to try, then i'm not doing my bit to uphold the culture of democracy. >> i have a question to frank about his great book, which everyone should boy. joe biden, we've all been grappling with joe biden for 40 years. and that book is really the first really deep dive in this white house. so congratulations on that. >> thank you. >> there is a tension that comes through that i know if you know biden, comes through in your book, that all of that, i'm here to fight for the soul of the nation, all of the institutionalist in him, all of the things you're referring to here. and also, a great sensitivity to chatter of classes who live in your city.

when he gave that speech, it was his closing argument in the midterms, he was pummelled by smart guy. >> yes. >> in d.c. saying terrible idea. why is he talking about democracy? there were campaign consultants and pundits left and right who thought it was terrible. i'm curious how much that bothered him to hear that carping and whether he had any doubts about it in the face of that carping, and how he thinks about it now as we head towards his reelection. >> well, you put your finger on one of the characteristics of joe biden that i find most fascinating which is he has this very complicated relationship with elites. because he doesn't talk like a democratic party elite. his stories are too folksy by half, the month logs. people roll their eyes at him. i rolled my eyes at him for a long time. people in the barack obama administration rolled their eyes. >> to this day. >> and he knows it. and he knows it. so he is constantly desperately in search of elite approval, but

then also i think there is part of him that thinks i know better than the elites. that they think they're so smart, but i'm this street wise blue collar guy, and i'm willing to think in a contrarian sort of way. and it's something that democracy speech, i think that he trusted his own instincts there, despite the fact that it probably infuriated him to hear the chattering of classes condemn him in that sort of way. and he stuck with it, despite the criticism. >> i think we're in a moment, though, charlie sykes, where it's either or. either the elites like what you do every day, or you're a democratic politician. president obama is the rare exception where he had a real bond with a very broad coalition and the elites revered him. but i think most people have to make a bit of a swap. and i think what president biden seems to understand that the reference from the elites can be a political liability in this moment. >> oh, i think so. and i think that he does

understand that. what is really interesting about franklin's book is the fact that joe biden has been successful in cutting some of these deals, but the word that jumps out at me from the title is "the last." the last politician. because as we talk about him, his whole approach to politics seems like a throwback from another era. joe biden and mitch mcconnell sitting in a room and hammering out a compromise. this can still be done, but you feel as if it's something from another time, that it's disappearing. and i'd be interested in hearing franklin's thoughts about this. what happens after joe biden? is there any appetite for this kind of bipartisanship? this kind of statesmanship, or are we really seeing kind of the last vestiges of this long and rich tradition. there has been successes, but it feels like we are -- this is end of that era, and we are at the beginning of a very different,

very uglier, much more tribal era. >> so the last two presidents that we elected before joe biden were people who were anti-politicians who claimed to be leading mass movements and posed people that thought the system itself was corrupt and it needed this external shock. and i think that what at best in the biden presidency, what he shows is this example. and i think it's kind of incumbent on people on both sides who understand the value of politics to push back against the cultural tendency to dismiss politics as somehow ignoble. >> i think the piece that covering it and watching it from the outside is president biden's policy agenda is so popular that republicans are running on it. and there is a real gap, and i don't do a lot with opinion

polls, not because i know they're wrong, but because i'm not sure they're right. but how does he narrow that gap as he comes up for reelection? >> well, especially with young people, with black voters, i guess that's a question, which how does that translate into the modern world that those voters are living number and also, do you have any sense for the president's mind space about the kind of threat that the republican party poses. because on the one hand, there is such a soothing grandfatherliness to this sense of normalcy. on the other hand, there is a five-alarm fire across the street. so take us into his head space. >> so i think he has struggled at times to appreciate the radicalism of what the republican party is now. so he -- the label that he uses is ultra maga. and that is something that came to him from a focus group. and he put the ultra tag on it because he thought that maga wasn't extreme enough. but when he did so, he did so

self-consciously in order to not discredit the entirety of the republican party, because he said i think quite correctly, there are ten senators who i can work with. and if i make them seem as if they're part of the problem, then i'm not going be able to get these bipartisan bills done. but in end of the day, maybe there is other layer which is by not calling the party what it, he gets these important policy victories. but is he winning the political war where he is able to define the opposing side in a way that maybe best preserves the possibilities for democracy. >> talk about overton windows. when maga isn't far enough right wing, you have to have an ultra maga now? >> it's what you're saying. it was his way of carving out his handful of friends that he thought he could still do deals. i think it was a superlative, a strategic superlative if you will to carve out the ones. >> to win every voter.

>> mainstream maga republicans. >> fascinating. you'll have to come back on the other end of your book tour. we'll keep it going. thank you very much for being here. >> thank you. >> charlie, thank you for being a part of the politician. franklin's book is called "the last politician." buy it, give it a read. we'll keep talking about it around here. when we come back, the head of the anti-defamation league will be here at the table to respond to the threats made against the adl by elon musk. don't go anywhere. from verizon. (vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. ♪ ♪ wake up, gotta go! c'mon, c'mon. -gracie, c'mon. let's go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪

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maybe you're still on twitter. i guess we call it x now. maybe you're not. maybe you left. maybe you were never there, lucky you. in general, we try not to make a habit out of tracking its owner's every move, the ups and downs, the way, way, way downs, perhaps like the platform itself, it's not good for anyone's health. there is a story we want to bring to you because it fits into our ongoing coverage about hate in america and sometimes willful disinformation. in may the anti-defamation league released a report showing the platform was not doing enough to contain hate speech. containing thousands of examples, data, again, as most of the reports too. a virulent anti-semitism. in a single month from previously banned accounts reinstated when elon musk bought the company for $44 billion. fast forward citing a 60% decline in revenue and elon musk

in trumpian fashion suggested that he would sue the adl, accusing the organization of this, quote, trying to kill his platform by falsely accusing it and me of being anti-semitic. fact check, it didn't ever do that. joining us at the table, the ceo and national director of the anti-defamation league jonathan greenblatt. also with us, daily beast columnist and host of a deep state radio podcast, david rothcobb. mara gay and jonathan heileman are back with us. tell us about your fight you're in with elon musk. >> well, it's a kind of a one-sided fight. to pull back the lens, to talk about the timeline, we have been engaged in a dialogue with twitter for years. and under previous management, it was pretty bad as well. after the takeover by elon musk, we did what adl does, we started to engage with him. because our view is if we could help the platform remove

anti-semitism, extremism, racism and hate, that's better for everyone. we started that dialogue. it has been choppy at times, but we've been engaged continuously with the company. i had a meeting last week with linda yaccarino, the new ceo. i tweeted that. she replied positively because we had a very productive conversation. that ignited a firearm storm on the platform, and a number of white supremacists, including a guy named nick fuentes, who we know, launched a campaign called ban the adl, which literally got tremendous boosts over a couple days. it was the trending topic over the weekend. and we learned as we already knew that what happens online jumps offline. on saturday in florida, there were multiple nazi demonstrations, including one where a group called the red shirts, it's a fusion of the guyian defense leave and blood tribe, this is a real thing, marched openly and chanted with

swastikas and signs and chanted ban the adl. and into this morass of hate and toxicity, elon musk jumped in over the weekend and started to engage with some of the people engaged in this, and by virtue of his 160 million followers, inherently amplified them, intensified the hate, and that's where we are today. >> are you -- do you feel safe? you all right? >> look, the adl has been doing this work for over 100 years. we've been attacked by nazi sympathizers in the 30s and the kkk and qanon and all sorts of characters. so i'm not daunted. i could care less. i have to focus on one thing in this community, which is keeping our communities safe. do think about the context. we've talked on your show before, nicolle. we've had a historic rise of anti-semitism over the past eight years. >> let me put it out. >> the highest numbers i've ever seen. >> 2013, 751.

20141912. jump by 2022, 3,697. >> you don't need to be math major to see that's a more than 500% increase that all started cranking up in the 2016 general election season. and in addition, just last month we've had dozens of swats of synagogues and black churches. we've had bomb threats against jewish institution. we've had propaganda drop these hideous anti-semitic flyers all over the nation. again, nazis marching openly, normalizing the political conversation. and on to all of that comes this. and if you don't take my word for it, if you look at x, you just read the tweets under ban the adl, they are hideous. they're sort of nc-17. certainly the kind of content i wouldn't want my children to see. >> so what did linda say to you when you had a meeting? >> it was a very frank, productive conversation.

it's the first time we ever met. we had a number of mutual friends in common. she used to be a member of this organization when she ran nbcuniversal, and we talked about how the platform could be better. well talked about building a productive collaboration partnership. and we agreed to continue the conversation. so i thought it was the start of a positive productive relationship. >> and when you said that, the right-wing white nationalists and anti-semitic accounts that largely came back online after elon musk buys twitter attacked you and elon musk amplified them? >> that happened. so he amplified them by simply virtue of engaging with them and validating. now you can see this in realtime on twitter, but at adl, we also track the extremists. and we could see like from virtue of what they were writing and saying, people like andrew torba, a christian nationalist and ugly racist, they were saying out loud in writing we feel emboldened because the richest man in the world is

taking on the jews. and that's how this is playing out in the real world. >> this is not hidden, and this is not in dispute. why does elon musk want to sue you? >> well, i couldn't ascribe to you what his motives are. >> well, then describe the impact of his actions for us. >> well, again, validating anti-semitic tropes like the jews are working behind the scenes to manipulate the markets is classic anti-semitism. that's a trope. whether or not he intends to invoke it, that's what many people are talking about online right now. but it's hard for me to ascertain what's really going on in his mind. but i did learn like the rest of us that his revenue is down 60%. but let me be clear. let me be crystal clear. we don't want to kill twitter. i've never said he's an anti-semite. the platform itself is not inherently anti-semitic. but the problem is anti-semitics right now are running amok and the data bears that out.

>> and anti-semitism flourishes on twitter. >> no question. by the way, all these social media platforms have a problem with hate. it's not unique to twitter. it was there before elon musk bought the platform. but the issues today with the spread of qanon, white supremacy on the platform are very real. >> i want to do two things here. representatives for musk, x, which is what we call twitter and ceo linda yaccarino didn't respond to our network's request for comment today. we asked them. they would have been -- we would have read a statement if they had given us one. they didn't do that. >> it's too bad because i'd love to be on the show with them right here, and i would ask them to explain to me who are the companies that you say we lobbied? because we haven't. what interest statements you say we've made? because we haven't. i'd have that conversation with elon on your show or any show any day of the week. >> interesting. i want to get to david's piece, because it is provocative and

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you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire (josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. matching your job description. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. (vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. we had an emmy award winning conversation in the break. let's see if we can bring it on the air. david rothkopf, you've written an important piece. i just want to you take us through it, make your points. >> i pick up where jonathan's explanation, his very good

explanation of the situation leaves off. and i point out that for elon musk to say he's in the an anti-semimite but to amplify anti-semimites, anti-semitic tropes, to invite nazis on to his website is a distinction without a difference. now we're along well enough into the elon musk enterprise that advertisers have to know if they're sending a dollar to twitter, to x to support the enterprise, to support elon musk, what they are supporting is the kind of garbage that we saw over this weekend that many of us had to live through since he has taken it over. and it's actually worse than that. and i try to go through several other examples. elon musk says he's a champion of free speech. they've convicted somebody and sentenced them to death for a

tweet. he has not said a word, because the saudis are his partners. he has not been helpful with our war in ukraine, and the united states continues to subsidize it. the man has awesome power, and i think it's time we all ask the question, of politicians and big businesses -- do we want to support an enterprise that is actively attacking and undermining our values, our institutions, our security, and our safety? >> i agree with you, david. the threats that are amplified sit oh fulcrum of a current domestic security threat that the department of homeland security issued a threat about the causes and grievance and ideologies that are amplified and that's just a fact. the content is at the center, at the nexus for a security threat of the entire country. it's not a technology question. they have the ability as technology platforms to get rid of content they don't want

there. this is a will piece. where do you think, david, the lack of will comes from from musk's part. what we were talk about on the break is how low the bar is. elon musk could get rid of one nazi, and people would throw him a parade. the bar so so low, so rampant. why do you think there isn't a will to do something in this current threat environment? >> i think you phrased the question very charitably. i don't think there's not a will not to do it. when he came on he immediately started inviting these people on to the website, said he was championing free speech, but brought on to it people who were defined by their intolerance, defined by hair hatred, and i think we need to see this for what it is. it's not a phenomenon on a social media site. in the 1930s -- i use this as the son of a holocaust survivor very carefully, but in the 1930s when the nazis wanted to

generate support for their movement, they led people into the streets. today the streets, the public places, are on social media. and elon musk is opening up the streets of twitter, the streets of social media, to nazi rallies, to white supremacist rallies, to attacks on jews and blacks and women and people who support democracy. and that is as big a crisis as those torchlight parades in munich were in the 1930s, and i think we got to call it out for what it is and do what we can to stop it. >> i think it's hard for me to see elon musk's behavior at this point as in good faith given the extreme rise in anti-semitism and hate in general, anti-black hate as well. and i think he's going to do whatever he wants to do because he's a billion area. the question for the rest of us is, to david's point, do we need

to support this? is there market pressure that can be placed to maybe make difference choices as consumers? and we don't have to participate. i certainly thought to myself, do i really want to be on this platform anymore? is this something you really want to be a part of? and i think one of the really dark questions that john had -- i don't want to put words in your mouth, but during the break, if it's not capitalism that motivates one of the world's great capitalists -- because market shares of x are down, so what is this about exactly? >> i don't get it. good work on behalf of shutting down, putting pressure on people to behave to not be anti-semitic and racist in other ways, public said shine a bright light on it. america is not overwhelmingly -- you can appeal to people.

and even though we have a lot of dark corners in our country, the truth is, a lot of people paid prices in the market. the public, whether share price or revenue goes down, one way or the other, that's part of the story of the brilliance of jonathan's group. in this case you've got elon musk saying, hey, our revenues are down 60%, advertisers are fleeing, stock prices are down, and i don't care. so what -- and this is not a guy who doesn't care about money. he's one of the great hypercapitalists of our age, richest man on earth, good at making money, successful capitalist. you put all that pressure on him, he's seeing the effects and yet still going down this path. maybe that goes back to the rothkop point, which is maybe there's something really dark here, which is he has enough money and other -- for him, the

principles are at stake. >> other agendas. >> i want to keep this conversation going. i need to do it on another day, though. can we all come back? i think this might be one of the most important things to figure out what we should do. we can control us. i would like to be prescriptive in our next conversation. i'll give you all homework. >> we had a really great conversation. anti-semitism and social media for happy hour. >> quick break for us. we'll be right back. ck break fo. we'll be right back. when i talk to patients you can just see from here up when you're wearing a mask. and i have noticed those lines beginning to really become not so much moderate but more severe. i'm still wendy and i got botox® cosmetic. and i'm really happy with the results because they're very subtle, and i feel like i look like myself, but just less lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved, to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi. >> hi, nicolle. thanks so much. welcome to "the beat." i'm ari melber. we're gearing up for bill maher to join us tonight, while we begin with breaking news. georgia prosecutors took their rico case to court today, a contrast to that close process in the other two federal