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from all our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> thanks to you at home for joining me this hour. so, one of the things that makes the fulton county election interference case against trump and his 18 codefendants, one of the things that makes it truly unique is that cameras are allowed in the courtroom. and today we saw the very first glimpse of what that will look like. mainly the back of a lot of lawyers heads. today's hearing was to discuss the severance motion that were filed by trump's codefendants and former lawyers. sidney powell and kenneth chesebro. both of them waive their right to appear. so, again, visually speaking, what we got today was a lot of the back of different lawyers heads. there they all are, right there. but eventually, all 19 of these defendants -- eventually --

they could testify or appear in person, and so we could potentially be looking at any one of them, trump included, on the witness stand, on live tv. but, for now, a lot of back of heads. now, even though the actual hearing today was not exactly cinematic, it was still fairly dramatic. this case, with 19 defendants, all demanding different things, a sort of a logistical nightmare. and the logistics really matter here. the logistics are going to play a very meaningful role in determining how and when this case gets to trial, which, in turn, it could be critical in terms of actual accountability. today, lawyers for ms. powell and mr. chesebro, to meet their rights to a speedy trial and fair trial, that they should both be tried next month individually. the judge here, scott mcafee, did not go for that. so, their trial is still set for next month, october 23rd. but mr. chesebro and ms. powell

will be tried together. the judge essentially asserted that because powell and chesebro have never met, and that they would tell the jury that, the idea they would have any guilt by association issues is null and void. and judge mcafee is not going to waste court resources trying them separately. so, at the very least, mr. chesebro and ms. powell go to trial next month, which is a little over six weeks from now. but that brings us to the much bigger question posed today. do the 17 other defendants, including a one donald trump, do they have to go to trial next month as well? now, the prosecutors from the district attorney of fani willis's office think, yes, they should. >> judge, we contend that we must prove the entire conspiracy against each and every one charged. each and every one charged. so, the court, in the interest of judicious economy, would have to make the decision whether the court wants to try

the same case 19 times, or -- >> the state's position is whether we have one trial or 19 trials, the evidence is exactly the same. the number of witnesses is the same. and so, many of the arguments that are made on the other side evaporates. >> today, the prosecutors told told the judge that, because they believe they need to prove the entire conspiracy in each and every case, even if a trial is just for one or two defendants, each trial will take roughly the same amount of time. prosecutors estimate that a case against all 19 codefendants together would take four months, in addition to whatever time jury selection case. and fani willis's office anticipates calling upwards of 150 witnesses, 150. again, d a willis's team -- estimate is the same, whether the cases brought against all

19 defendants together, or whether it is just kenneth chesebro and sidney powell. still going to be for four months, still going to be 150 witnesses. the judge notley seemed sympathetic to that argument, but actually thought prosecutors were underestimating how long the trials would take. judge mcafee thought it could easily take more like eight months, which, though i have no law degree to me, makes sense to me. jury selection for this case feels very tricky, and 150 witnesses seems like a whole lot of witnesses. so, splitting the cases, severing them from one another, in the parlance of the court, and having one trial in october for just two defendants and then another further down the line for everyone else, that could be setting up the court for some very lengthy hearings, not to mention staggering inefficiency. but judge mcafee appeared to be even more skeptical of the alternate action, having all 19 defendants go to trial together on october 23rd. in particular, he seemed worried about whether it was

even logistically possible to get through all of the pretrial motions for 19 defendants, including, by the way, the former president, and get through all of those in just a month. >> this is going to be a case with a lot of pre trial motions. and, again, i don't know how many hearings we are going to need to have to sort through all those. but if we can press our timelines, 40 something days, our ability to even really weigh those and think through these issues, again, it just seems a little unrealistic to think that we can handle all 19 in 40 something days. >> the judge has given d. a. willis's office until next tuesday to file a brief explaining how they think the trial starting for all 19th 19 defendants starting on october 23rd. joining me now christie greenberg kristi greenberg and mimi rocah -- former federal prosecutor and the former dea for west chester

-- right here in new york state. kristi greenberg and mimi rocah, thank you for being here tonight. i am -- okay, this is really where the fact that i have no law degree come shining through in glaring light. but 19 defendants, october 23rd, is this -- are we operating in the same universe as the d. a.'s office? is this even possible, mimi? >> -- i think if the dea da says it's possible, which he has, very affirmatively, it is possible. do i think it is going to happen? do i think it is maybe the best idea even for the case? no. the judge will decide that. but, yes, they have to prove the conspiracy no matter how many defendants are in the case, you have to -- prove, in essence, the same case. but having 19 lawyers to do cross examinations, to make objections, that is what will make that size of the case -- >> totally. >> -- and we'll be.

and i think this judge seems very common sense. and i think the d. a. is doing absolutely what she should be doing. the government is always ready. the people already. the state of georgia is ready. and so she is ready. would you do it if he had to? absolutely. and i am sure she would do a very good job. >> okay, but just -- our eminence -- although i'm sure he would not like -- the part of that -- but, anyway andrew weissmann, tweeted today -- fani willis and she would call it 150 witnesses is really absurd. over trying a case is never a good thing for the government and opens the door to the defense to score points and play games. 150 witnesses, no matter who is on trial, does seem aggressive. does it not? >> it seems unwise to say that you are going to present the exact same case, no matter who the defendants are. >> right. >> you only have two defendants who are a part of two very discrete scenes. schemes, you don't need to start proving up all the other

evidence with respect to 17 other defendants that the jurors are never going to meet. is going to be confusing. and the jurors may start to resent the prosecutors for making this go on so. long and she is estimating for four months. the judge said, actually, that could take eight months. again, you have to prove a pattern of racketeering. you have to prove there is an enterprise. but you don't necessarily need to put on the exact same case to do that when you only have two defendants versus 19. >> why is she doing that? is that just because she wants these folks tried together? and if she does, what is a reasonable timeline for, that mimi? >> i think she is doing it, again, because i think that is the position that a prosecutor who charges 19 people together must take. you must say that you are prepared to try them together. and, yes, because she believes that they acted in concert, they acted together. and so it would be more efficient, in some ways, from her point of view, to do the case once. >> yes. i mean, sorry to interrupt you.

i understand why she wants them to go together. i am confused as to why she says, regardless of whether they are tried together, they are all going to get 150 witnesses at the trial. >> look, they are making arguments right now to the judge as to why he shouldn't break it up. and this is one of several arguments that were made. >> right. >> i have charged 40 defendant cases. they were organized crime cases. i have never had more than four at a time go to trial, either because most of them played out, cooperated, or because the judge severed them. it is not common. but i do get the sense here that this judge is going to not have separate trials for everyone, but maybe break it up into some more manageable pieces. and then -- or, wait and see, though, who does plead out, who does cooperate. it is very unlikely that all 19 will go to trial. they have a right to, a legal right. but, in experience, that is just unlikely to happen. >> right.

i think the broad assumption here was that 19, a bunch of them are going to. flip they are going to plead out, whatever. when is that part start happening? because, tick tock, it is september 6th -- i don't even know what date is. october is not that far away from now. and that's the sort of expiration day we are theoretically working with. so, what is happening behind the scenes with some of these defendants? >> it starts now. >> okay. >> there is a scheduling order now in the case with powell and chesebro. and if you want to be a witness in that case and get cooperation points for the fact that you are going to testify at that trial, getting in now would make sense. and before any pre trial motions are filed. so, you have to imagine at least some of these 19 defendants are having real conversations with their lawyers about whether or not they are going to cooperate. >> there is another part of that i think this has gone largely under discussed, which is the removal piece. mark meadows and other defendants are saying, take

this out of state court. send it to federal court. that decision has not yet been made. there is likely to be an appeals process that could take some time. this is what judge mcafee -- i think we have the sound from him today -- bringing up that very important point to the prosecutors. let us take a listen. >> so, if it's a four-month trial, this starts in october, we are potentially sitting at a point where we presented the entire states case, maybe even the jury has returned a verdict. but we can enter that judgment of conviction until the 11th circuit comes to a decision. is that the scenario where we are playing out here? >> help me understand, this mimi rocah. so, if there are -- for example, if mark meadows is still trying to appeal -- let's say, they say, if you can't throw it out from state court, and he appeals that decision, it's working its way through the court system, potentially at the same time that the trial is still happening. and if a verdict is returned in the trial, you cannot actually convict until the removal process is complete, that whole appeals process is complete.

is that right? >> that seems to be what the judge is saying. i am not sure that is exactly right. it wouldn't be right if meadows's case was severed. because you could still sever his case. >> right. >> but he would have to do that ahead of time. and he seems not necessarily inclined to do that. i think he is kind of -- i think at some point he said something about double jeopardy. and he is worried about a conviction at the state level and then there is going to be a federal possible trial. there is also still the question of if -- if, a big if -- if meadows's motion is successful -- >> -- >> -- and the law is not clear, as many people have said, on whether -- so, that is going to have to be decided as well. so, look, i don't know. i would be hesitant to predict how this is going to play out. i don't think anybody can. >> it's terra incognito, legally speaking, isn't it?

>> yes, it is. i do want to talk about the federal part of this. kristy greenberg, i am interested -- whatever calculations in jack smith -- is making, because they're so much overlap between the georgia case in his case. the timing before the jack smith case, march 6th, of 2024, if this case goes to trial in georgia this fall, you could have a lot of overlapping witnesses testimony. how would it even work? and by the way, if it is a real clown scene in terms of the witnesses and the defendants and their lawyers, in georgia, what are the implications for a federal trial that covers much of the same ground? >> so, you have witnesses when they have federal exposure. they are going to be approaching the state trial with some trepidation. what witnesses do they put on the stand? do they present a defense? do they testify? all of -- anything they say on the stand and any witnesses they are putting forward could be used against them in a federal case. so, they have to be careful when there is this overlap and

in the conduct that is being looked at at the federal level in the state level. >> i don't think he is happy about -- is this scene as a state preview for him? is this a useful exercise? or is this coming up the works? if you -- or jack smith? >> look, to be honest, if i were the federal prosecutor in his shoes, i would probably not be happy with it. you would probably rather just proceed with your case. you want to be the one to preview or premiere your witnesses. you don't -- yes. and those kinds of conflicts happen all the time. this is not unusual. >> it's just wholly unusual in another way. [laughter] -- >> kristy greenberg and mimi rocah, thank you guys both for exploring this uncharted waters with me. we have a lot more to come this evening, including a potential avenue to get d. a. fani willis off this case entirely. it is an idiot some republicans in georgia are open to exploring. but a bipartisan group of prosecutors is fighting back. that is coming up next. and later, new developments in one of the other criminal cases

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it is called the prosecuting attorney oversight commission. using it to go after d. a. willis in the middle of a very public and high stakes case would be a step so radical that even georgia's republican governor, kemp, is warning against it. but the new commission that theoretically has the power to remove d. a. willis is set to begin its work in just a few weeks, unless it is stopped by the courts. for georgia georgia district attorneys have filed a lawsuit, arguing the new law establishing this commission is unconstitutional and anti-democratic. one of them joins me now. sherry boston is the district attorney of dekalb county, georgia, right next door to fulton county. madam district attorney, thank you for joining me tonight. and there's a lot to talk about tonight on the substance of this law and it's decidedly anti-democratic bent. but just, first, for folks who have them worried about what is happening here with this commission and what may come in the month of october, can you talk to me a little bit about the makeup of the commission? and how the process is supposed

to work, given the novelty of all of this? >> alex, i wish i could answer some of those questions, but those are just some of the issues that we have outlined in our lawsuit. there are so many unanswered questions on what the rules are and how these types of investigations and removals are supposed to happen. but what we do know is that the eight men -- all men, who have been appointed to this commission, seven white, one african american -- by republican political officials have decided that these eight men get to make a decision about the investigation and removal of prosecutors. and, once removed, would be barred from running for office for another ten years, really whipping local decisions out of the hands of the voters. >> yeah. and i think -- we don't know what is going to

happen with fani willis in particular. but the very idea that there is this external body that can, effectively, undermine the will of voters and the citizens of georgia seems decidedly anti-democratic and very much fits in with a suite of initiatives, if you will, that republicans have taken up nationwide to undermine institutional integrity and the rule of law and democracy in general. to that end, when you talked talk about who is for this law and who is against it, i think it is notable that governor brian kemp has said, at least publicly, that he does not want this law, effectively, bastardized to oust fani willis from office. is that meaningful? >> it was very meaningful when governor kemp made the statement that he did, stating that he has seen no evidence at any level of reason that d. a. fani willis is doing anything other than what she was elected to do, which is follow the lead, investigate, present the case

to the grand jury. and the grand jury made their decision. and so, i commend the governor for that. however, at the same time, the governor did say very clearly that he would allow this commission rather than a special session, to review the actions of d. a. fani willis. and that is a problem, and should be a concern, for everyone, especially when that commission has power on october 1st -- and we know that this trial is slated to begin -- with at least some defendants on october 23rd. so, the idea that anybody can bring a complaint and try to thwart d. a. willis from doing her job in the middle of a major prosecution should be troubling to everyone. >> yeah. and it is worth noting that many of the people who sit on this commission are former d. a.'s themselves. i am sure you know who they are. we do not. perhaps there is some hope that

because they are d. a's themselves, they will recognize the importance of prosecutorial independents here. who can know? what is your expectation for the lawsuit? you're asking for an injunction while this case works its way through the courts. what is your expectation? >> absolutely. we filed this lawsuit and we filed the injunction a few weeks ago because we absolutely believe that harm can come to a number of d. a.'s before we've had an opportunity to let this lawsuit make its way through the courts. we are sitting in fulton county to puryear court. we expect a judge to hear the merits. but no matter what that decision is, that case will be appealed by the losing side, as it should be, to the supreme court of georgia, in which they will be the final decision makers on the constitutionality of this commission. and so, it would be difficult for any d. a. to have to defend themselves in an unconstitutional commission

before we have had a valid opportunity to have our legal issues addressed. and i believe that once those issues are looked at we have some very meritorious claims here. and i am hoping that, because of that, you will see a preliminary injunction put in place so that there is no interference, not only with the prosecution that d. a. willis has taken on, but no interference in any of the 15 50 d.a. offices right now. >> and that is a point that we can't lose sight, of which is this is not just about fani willis. this is about prosecutors doing their jobs and having that independents. sherry boston, district attorney for dekalb county, georgia. many thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> still to come this evening -- moms for liberty. this group did not even exist a couple of years ago. and now, this group is not only fighting culture wars over education across the country. it is attracting the admiration of republicans who want to lead the free world. plus, there are new revelations

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fbi searched donald trump's

florida beach club for classified documents. today we got new insight into what led up to that search. nbc news has confirmed that in may of last year, trump was warned by one of his, lawyers ever in corcoran, that the fbi might very well search mar-a-lago if trump did not comply with a grand jury subpoena requesting the return of those classified documents. abc news was first to report on a warning that mr. corcoran gave to mr. trump, which corcoran documented via voice memos on his phone. according to those voice memos, which nbc news has not heard, nor seen transcript of, but, through a source familiar, has confirmed the existence of, mr. corcoran explained explain to mr. trump, if you don't comply with the grand jury subpoena, you could be held in contempt. and there is a prospect that they, as in the government, could go to a judge and get a search warrant and that they could arrive here. that is here, as in mar-a-lago. in other words, these recordings appear to show that mr. trump was very well aware that a search of mar-a-lago was

likely, which was not a tall evident from trump's statements the week after that fbi search, when he sort of whipped up anger and indignation at law enforcement on truth social. there is no way to justify the unannounced raid of mar-a-lago without a notification or warning, an army of agents broke into mar-a-lago, went into the same storage area, and ripped open the lock that they had asked to be installed. a surprise attack, politics, and all the while, our country is going to hell. remember when your lawyer told you that might happen? anyway, today, we finally got some insight into why trump lawyers did not take a tougher stance with their client. according to recordings, corcoran met with another lawyer who warned that trump was just going to go ballistic if corcoran pushed the former president to comply with that subpoena. in the end, trump did not comply, and the rest is history. joining me now is mary mccord, former assistant u.s. attorney in washington d.c., and former acting assistant attorney

general at the doj, she is also host of the invaluable msnbc podcast, prosecuting donald trump. mary, thank you for helping me understand what is happening here. these voice memos, the trump campaign is saying this is part of attorney-client privilege, you have no right to this. is that fair? and how useful are these in the case that jack smith is making? >> i think it is important to remember that these voice memos were the subject of a dispute that was litigated in the district of columbia, the district court for the district of columbia, back when evan corcoran, mr. trump's lawyer, of course, during some of the mar-a-lago incidents, when you were just referring to in the opening, when the jack smith and a grand jury sought to subpoena mr. corcoran to testify. he asserted attorney client privilege. not only over his testimony, but also over documents and things like that. the government took that matter to the chief judge of the

district court and the district of columbia, and argued that the attorney client privilege should be pierced because there was evidence to suggest that mr. trump was actually perpetrating a fraud on his own attorney. he was actually trying to use his attorney to commit a crime. the district of columbia judge agreed with that and that is why mr. corcoran did then testify in front of the grand jury, and did supply these voice memos, some of which were seen by the grand jury, because parts of the same avoids memos appear in the indictment that was returned. so, they are not new. we just have more evidence, more accounting of some of the details of those things at this time. >> right. >> how important are they? clearly, they are very significant. they show mr. trump lying to his attorney. and some of the new things we got today show that it was actually when his attorney, mr. corcoran, said, if you don't comply with this subpoena, the

government may get a search warrant. it was in response to that that mr. trump said things like, wouldn't it be better if we just said we didn't have anything? we know now that not only did he then spend two weeks, mr. trump, you know, directing his aides walt nauta and carlos de oliveira -- to move a lot of boxes out of the basement storage unit, and many fewer boxes back into that storage unit. we know now that maybe was not just to avoid mr. corcoran seeing all of the classified and being able to go through it and provided to the government, the response to the subpoena, but maybe was to secret those documents away, so that if there was a search warrant, they wouldn't be found. >> right. it almost establishes that he was acutely aware that a search warrant might be on the horizon, and then did everything in his power to make sure certain documents were not found. is it strange to you that evan corcoran, who took these -- first of all, the fact that evan corcoran was making voice memos about his client behaving,

at best, theoretically, at worst, unlawfully, is that a normal thing in terms of council? secondly, by all the reporting we have, evan corcoran is still engaged as a legal adviser to donald trump. is that bizarre? >> yeah. so, in terms of the voice memos, it is not unusual for an attorney to memorialize their contacts with their client. they want to keep a record of the conversations they had with their client, and any advice they gave to their client, and how their client responded. that is important not only because they have this relationship, they want to make sure it is memorialized, just so that they are able to substantiate that they were doing with a client of instructed them to do, if there is ever a dispute. but also, of course, to see why a, right? to protect themselves when what he was experiencing clearly there was indications of mr. trump trying to really solicit him to hide information from the government, when mr. corcoran well knew --

he's a former prosecutor, the government had subpoenaed these documents, they were entitled to them, and the result of noncompliance might be contempt or might be a search warrant. so, i think keeping the voice memos is not particularly unusual. i do think it is really unusual that mr. corcoran is still representing mr. trump. now, not in the mar-a-lago but apparently still in the january 6th related indictment that was also brought by jack smith. this one brought in the d.c. district court here in the district of columbia. now, in that particular case, it is a conflict, or an apparent conflict, that mr. trump can wave. so if you wants to have evan corcoran, knowing that he is likely to be a witness against him in his trial in mar-a-lago, he can wave any conflict and say, no, i still want to represent me. now, why does he want him to do that? that's what kind of makes me concerned.

because, is he trying to do that to try and somehow pressure mr. corcoran not to give truthful testimony in mar-a-lago? because he is paying mr. corcoran to represent him, or his pack, for somebody is paying mr. corcoran to represent him. and i believe mr. corcoran has got a lot of money from him. now, all that said, if mr. corcoran says something different in the trial in the mar-a-lago case, then the one in the records and those voice recordings, he's going to get impeach with that and have to explain what the -- about. >> voice memos have never been as critical -- mary mccord, the great mary mccord, thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> still ahead -- hunter biden is about to be indicted, but -- his lawyer, abbe lowell, joins me, coming up. but first republican -- i think for the endorsement of an organization that is being called an anti-government extremist group. we are going to have more on that next.

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included exposing children to covid and banning books about race and jenner. the group has endorsed a number of school board members across country which has uptown fact on how children are learning and how they are learning it. but moms for liberty is yet to endorse a presidential candidate. the group says it has no plans to endorse a candidate right now. but that has not stopped presidential candidates from endorsing moms for liberty. when the southern poverty law center labeled the moms group a hate and anti government extremist group in june, vivek ramaswamy pledged his allegiance. >> it's a sad state of affairs when a respectable organization like moms for liberty, and by the way, i'm proud to be the first presidential candidate that signed their pledge, is now designated a hate group. if they're hate group, then so

be it, count me in. >> county into the hate group. a few weeks later, an indiana chapter of moms for liberty quoted hitler on the front page of its inaugural newsletter. they wrote, he alone who owns the youth gains the future. a chapter later apologized, but even after public outrage over the hitler quote, and winning the designation of a hate group, nearly every single presidential candidate travel to philadelphia for the moms for liberty annual summit this july. they cut through protesters and they joined the main stage and fashion themselves presidential candidates for liberty. >> i see that moms for liberties is coming under attack by the left, attack by the corporate media, protest out here in the streets, and now you know how i feel everywhere i go. [laughter] >> parental rights, you think you'd have parental rights. it's unbelievable what they do to your children. >> what you are already doing, which is why i love you, which

is why they will protest you, which is why they will vandalize our events, is that we are speaking the truth without apology. >> all the ring kissing here can be explained by the fact that moms for liberty has repeatedly demonstrated its political power among a key republican voting block, conservative mothers. those mothers have been electrified by the groups takeovers and censorship of books in school libraries, and they're more broad anti woke education agenda. and man, the competition to harness that political power is fierce. this morning, governor ron desantis announced the appointment of moms for liberty cofounder tina desk of itch to florida's commission on ethics. then nikki haley, her campaign said out a flier promoting her candidate for, moms for liberty tiffany justice. >> what tiffany and i are doing is saying, the parents are in

charge, the parents get to make these decisions. so i'm so grateful to tiffany and moms for liberty for the fight that they are doing to bring this back to the parents, because parents have one job, and that is to get this right for their kids. we have to fight for that to make sure they get that. >> you have the fundamental right to direct the upbringing of your children. this is why so many moms love nikki haley, because she is standing up as a mom fighting for kids. >> just a few hours ago, nikki haley appeared along justice once again, this time hosting the moms for liberty parents in charge town hall in new hampshire, where parents, presumably, were in charge. despite all the sensorial and retrograde and highly questionable things on the agenda here, we're or actually maybe because of, it republican candidates are tripping over themselves are tripping over

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we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. so we learned today that the special counsel investigating hunter biden plans to indict the president's son on a felony gun charge for the end of the month. in a new filing, prosecutors said they would seek to indict biden purchasing a gun while he was using drugs and then lying about that on a federal form. the filing also mentions a misdemeanor tax case the prosecutors brought against biden earlier this year. both of those cases were on track to be settled in a plea deal that fell apart in spectacular fashion this july after a judge questions the agreement. in the court by lead today, biden's lawyer says the client has been following the

conditions of the original plea agreement, but prosecutors have pushed back against that. they contend that the agreement is now because hunter biden chose not to plead guilty and the deal was never signed by the probation office. mr. lull, thanks for being here. and for helping me understand how it is that you believe that you are pursuing in agreement, a plea agreement that remains valid. the prosecution does not seem to think the same thing. can you explain to us what's going on, and your logic. >> sure. this is pretty easy, i think, for people out in the real world to understand. if two parties make an agreement, and sign the agreement, and submit the agreement, and in open court say they have an agreement, then they have an agreement. and more importantly what has happened since that day, as we pointed out in our pleading, our client hunter has been lee living up to the terms of his agreement. to be clear, there are two different agreements, the plea agreement which was not fulfilled and this thing called the diversion agreement which

is important based on the prosecutors filing about what they plan to do on a gun charge. the diversion agreement is where there was a clause that talked about what would happen and the parties agreed. as to the people who are saying the probation officer didn't sign the agreement, well, it's a little disingenuous in the very least. on july 20th, the u.s. attorney's office wrote to the judge and the court and said the probation office had agreed to the terms of the agreement and they were implementing the conditions of probation that the agreement called for. in everybody else's life, when the seller, carousel a house, employee somebody, and we have a signed agreement, most people think it's an agreement. >> again, to the layman, if that is the case, then why did merrick garland allow david boies to become special counsel? if that is effectively unsettled matter? >> those are two different things. if it was true, this is a different part, that any part of the investigation, quote, was ongoing, which is what the

u.s. attorney's office said until i-20 sixth, and the attorney general who said i'm not going to interfere with say, okay, if this is what you said i'm gonna do it. but that doesn't have much to do with what could be brought under that agreement, should there be any further investigation. as to the special counsel designation, i have said this before, and i think people get it now. if the attorney general, for months and months and months, said that david weiss had all the power and authority he needed to bring in any case anywhere anytime he wanted. and if david weiss the u.s. attorney said, that what happened when the attorney general changed his names title was a change in title, not a change of his power. and never forget that after five years of a painstaking investigation, that office felt that the right conclusion in this case was the filing of two late filing tax charge misdemeanors and a diversion agreement for the gun charge. and so if they change their mind now, which they say in court, they are going to do, then the only conclusion is

that the facts haven't changed, the law, if it has changed, has only changed to make their case less strong, it has to have been the political influence, the improper political interference. i want to come back to the one point though. they know everything there is to know about the gun possession. hunter had a gun for 11 days. it wasn't overloaded, it was never used. there has never been a stand-alone gun charge like this brought by this office ever, and assuredly not be. they decided it made sense to do a diversion because of hunter's condition at the time. now they are talking about changing that. what has changed? not the facts. if people paid attention, the only law that has changed has been a court of appeal appeals in the federal system that has called that statute unconstitutional. so what changed? not the facts. not the law. but we have seen over the last six weeks of the politics have

certainly influence the outcome. >> if it is, in fact, the politics that are dictating this, do you think it's possible to resolve this without going to trial? >> i have been doing this for as long as anybody, i think. it is possible. but if the u.s. attorney, who was correct today to say the following, the statute and calls for a speedy trial calculation is 30 days. it is true that in 30 days something has to happen. well, in that period of time, something could happen, which would be, let's get back to what you thought was the right result after five years of investigation by an independent republican u.s. attorney who thought the only valid charge was a failure to file under timely basis like millions and millions of people do, and a diverted gun charge because nobody gets charged for a stand-alone gun case. that being the case, maybe that's what could happen between now and sometime in the future. to hold out hope for it?

i don't know. i do know what they said in courts today, but they know what i said, as well. >> i wonder if the reality of how the supreme court has ruled on gun rights recently will also factor into their calculations. the supreme court has expanded the rights of gun ownership, including for people who have been found to be abusing drugs, potentially. so all of that can factor into the ultimate outcome in this. do you think that will have a cooling effect on these prosecutors? >> it depends. as much as the facts in the law should cool these pasta cuter's it looked like he did is put on by the republican congressman who want to interfere with what the justice department does puts up the heat, but if they are going to focus on the facts and they are gonna focus on the law, do you know what has changed since july 26th? the law changed. and this statue that they cited to the court today has been found by a court of appeals to be unconstitutional. where else, other than a case in which they are cowering from the political pressure, with someone be charged with something that is

unconstitutional? >> abbe lowell, thank you so much for your time tonight. very clarifying. that is our show for this evening. >> abbe lowell, thank you so much for your time tonight. very clarifying. that is our show for this evening. now it's time for the last world, with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> a very big day for collateral estoppel. >> wow. >> yeah, you did hear that. it's the key phrase in one of the trump cases today. this was his big loss of the day, and he lost on collateral estoppel. which you almost never see. you almost never see it. >> or hear. >> we're gonna be explaining all of that later in the hour, because that is how e. jean carroll won again today. collateral estoppel. >> i'm writing it down, and i can't wait for the definition >> you spell it the way it sounds. nothing to it. today, the georgia 19 became the georgia two and the georgia 17 at least for now. it was a good day for district attorney fani willis and her team of lawyers, who won round one of what will be the fully televised trials of the georgia 19. two donald trump's codefendants in georgia were in court today through their lawyers asserting

their ri