able to agree upon when they get back. >> there are a number of republicans, including those in the senate, who fear a shutdown would blow up in the faces of the gop. all right. a lot covered for us this morning from nbc news capitol hill correspondent julie turkeyen. -- tsirkin. thank you for getting up with us "way too early." "morning joe" begins now. the republican party didn't begin on a golden escalator in 2015. long before that day, it was forged and defended and defined as the conservative party in america. and so it should ever be. >> mike pence gives some of his sharpest criticism yet of his former running mate, calling the future of the republican party a battle between conservatism and populism. we'll have more of his comments just ahead. plus, what donald trump had

to say about the possibility of taking the witness stand in his own defense in the classified documents case. and we'll have an update on hunter biden's legal troubles as the special counsel appointed to his case is now seeking an indictment for the president's son. also ahead, we're learning more about how a prisoner, who is still on the run this morning, was able to escape from a county prison in pennsylvania. okay. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, september 7th. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. yeah, right here. and professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. national affairs analyst john heilemann. washington bureau chief "usa

today", susan page. and former attorney and legal analyst joyce vance. let's start with what mike pence had to say, willie. he was talking about the need for conservatism. i was reading jonah goldberg last night in "the dispatch," talking about how conservatism has always been sort of the bulwark to protect america and other countries from radicalism. jonah brought up a great point. the fact that, now, you have so-called conservatives adopting the stand and the world view of radicals and engaging and embracing in radicalism. there's no protection against that radicalism because it's the conservatives who are supposed to be the counterbalance. as mike pence said last night, you know, this is a tragedy for america, but, also, it's a

tragedy for conservatism because, again, conservatism, supposed to be the rock. it's supposed to be the steadying force in the debate. it's just not anymore. it's become the radical corner. >> there is a distinction you've made between trumpism and conservative, and they've been conflated and lumped together. well, conservatives like donald trump, there's nothing conservative. talk about the policy, the debt he racked up and all that on that time, and also to lead to the overturning of the federal government, for example, to put into question our system and our peaceful transition of power. mike pence is making plain, an argument that would have been so obvious just a few years ago, but it has to be said out loud. the problem is, the question is, is it a tree falling in the conservative forest? is everybody on board with donald trump? is he going to continue to rise?

is there a place for a real conservative, as you'd define it, joe, i think, in this republican party? >> well, and it's not just narrowly defined by american conservatism. we're just talking about conservatism in general. >> yeah. >> again, you're talking about a force, starting with edmund burke, that was a reaction to the french revolution and the radicalism there, eddie glaude. conservative was about custom, it was about consistency. it was about -- well, as russell kirk said in "the conservative mind," i think the seventh and last edition, he said, "conservatives look at the world and then they decide, do we need to be the party of progress, or do we need to be the party of perseverance, where we're pushing back against radical change?" that radical change might have

been, you know, a radical thought or whether, now, it's the tech revolution that's completely turned our lives and our children's lives upside down. but a conservative is supposed to look at the world, russell kirk said, and ask the question, do we need to be the party of preserving or the party of progress? what does this moment, what does this reality call for? instead of protecting custom and constitution, you now have republicans pushing a guy who said, if the constitution gets in the way of me serving another four years, we'll just terminate the constitution. well, that's about as radical as you get, isn't it? >> i think so, joe. the conservatism we can trace

back to edmund burke is a complex one, but i would also want to think that the way in which we think about its emergence in the united states, the development in the united states, i'm thinking about pat buchanan, newt gingrich, how they, in some ways, set the stage for trumpism. how do we tell that story? there is an element of american conservatism in its history that actually gives rise to trumpism. even though it is a caricature of sorts. >> right. >> you're absolutely right, joe, but we have to locate it in our specific history, in our particular time, and tell a thick story about how this came to be. >> well, you're right. eddie, you're so right, it is a complex story. but it is a -- we always talk about two things being true at the same time. sometimes, protecting custom protects institutions that are evil. sometimes, it holds up institutions that are positive, that are good, that are life-affirming, that grow the society. let's listen to mike pence

continue to talk on the topic. >> a populist movement is rising in the republican party. the growing faction would substitute our faith in limited government and traditional values with an agenda stitched together by little else than personal grievances and performative outrage. a leading candidate for the republican nomination, last year, called for the, quote, termination of all rules, regulations and articles, even those found in the constitution, close quote. while these imitators in this primary have demonstrated a willingness to brandish power on opponents. >> he's talking about donald trump, let's terminate the constitution. >> wow. >> john heilemann, you talk about the height of irony. republicans that i grew up with, conservatives that i grew up with said, "oh, liberals are

concerned about their feelings. they create their own realities." well, that's where we are now. right? what i found some interesting is when mika and i were up in maine in 2020, you actually saw boats with flags that said, i won't say exactly what it said, but it said, "f your feelings. trump 2020." like, they were the tough guys. forget your feelings. it doesn't matter what you think. trump is going to win 2020. so trump loses. what do we hear? you know what, his feelings, just give him some time to get used to this new reality. he's not really ready to accept the fact that he lost. let's just be patient. and an incredible thing happened. these so-called conservatives were suddenly the people who wanted us to believe their

reality. who wanted us to believe their feelings. jonah goldberg goes into this, their feelings have become their reality. suddenly, again, custom, constitution, american institutions that have sustained this, whether you're talking about the justice department or the united states military or america's colleges and universities, the greatest in the world by far, suddenly, they all come under attack and, as jonah said, anything that doesn't support the continued power grab by trump and trumpists is suspect and comes under attack. that's not conservatism. that's radicalism, and it's why we are fighting to preserve american democracy right now. >> right. so just in case you're not

clear, the "f your feelings," that doesn't mean forget. >> exactly. >> we're clear. >> should i say what -- >> no. >> it's what the flag said. >> we had a day like that. >> 6:09 a.m., not supposed to say that? >> we had a day like that a decade ago. didn't go well. don't use the word. >> 7-second delay and all that. >> joe, you know, yes, i mean, all of that is true. of course, it's been a long time since the republican party was a conservative party, in my view, properly understood in the burkian sense, temperamentally conservative, the definition of the conservatism that you were attracted to when you first joined the movement, joined the party. of course, it is -- the version that jonah is talking about, you're talking about, is not just radicalism, it is cult of personality when it comes to donald trump. you see it now, it has escaped even -- you know, trump is a very big figure in the party, obviously the dominant thing in the party, but it is beyond

donald trump now. you look up in the state of wisconsin. we have talked on this program a lot since april when this liberal justice, whose last name i can barely pronounce in wisconsin, got elected to everyone's surprise to the supreme court in wisconsin. the republicans in wisconsin are now trying to invalidate that woman's election. she hasn't even heard a case yet, and they're trying to throw it out. they're trying to get her impeached, basically, five months, four months after she got elected because she threatens the power of republicans over the wisconsin legislature. no respect whatsoever for the will of the people. no respect for a justly held vote, for the base on which this woman got elected to the wisconsin supreme court. what is mike pence going to say about that? is mike pence going to stand up and say, "well, as conservatives, we respect the will of the people, the outcomes of elections," or will he do what republicans will do, "we have to be for that, throwing her out, because wisconsin is an important state. we're going to be for that."

we've seen it on the united states supreme court, too, when it comes to roe v. wade. nothing conservative about throwing away a 50-year precedent set in stone. as important as it is to talk about trump and the cult of personality that drives the radicalism on the presidential level, every nook and cranky across the country, every level, you have lost a sense in the republican party about what the roots of conservatism were that held the party together throughout the modern era, until this century, i would say. >> yeah. again, a complete disconnect from reality. again, conservatives, constitutionally, temperamentally, conservatives are supposed to look at reality as it is. reality as it is. adapt to that. of course, so far, the party is so far from that. this is beyond -- let me say this, this is beyond radicalism. jonah is right, it is

radicalism, willie. we can say without being hyperbolic in the least, that this is anti-democratic, through and through. you heard what john heilemann just said about what they're doing in wisconsin. trying to impeach a judge that won a landslide election. just because. in tennessee, kicking out two black members of the legislature that were elected because they protested. in ohio, at the last second, changing the rules of a state referendum because they knew they were going to lose. of course, they failed at changing those rules. the people were still able to do something. in washington, d.c., why is donald trump going to trial next march? because he set up a scheme to put in place fraudulent electors. what would that do? that would take away the votes

of millions and millions of people who already had actual constitutional electors in washington, d.c., to have their votes counted. of course, we can go to georgia. you know, donald trump saying, basically to the secretary of state, "steal the election. throw out 11,000 votes. find one more that i need to win." again, this is not just conservatism versus radicalism. this is democracy versus anti-democracy. i don't think we've had as clear a cut difference between the parties, certainly not in my lifetime, and i would suggest we'd probably have to go back to the civil war to find two parties so at odds as these two parties right now. one literally wants to end the democratic experiment if you look at the person who is running. who has said, again, as mike pence said, his vice president,

he wants to terminate the constitution if the constitution stands in the way of him being the president of the united states. >> and the argument they're making, or implicitly, i guess, is that democracy has not yielded the results we wanted. donald trump didn't win. we didn't get what we wanted on abortion in certain places with the referendum, so we're going to burn it down. get rid of democracy so we can change the system and get the outcomes he want. i'd add the effort at the state level in georgia to impeach, effectively, fani willis, the fulton county d.a. notably, it was the republican governor, brian kemp, who stepped in quickly and said, "yeah, that's not happening." john, if you look at the field of republican presidential candidates right now, donald trump is head and shoulders above everyone, but the closest opponents are cheap imitations of donald trump. in other words, the people who are finding any traction at all nationally, vivek ramaswamy, ron desantis to a lesser degree, are doing an impersonation of donald

trump. i mean, you had ron desantis yesterday saying, yes, i would consider pardons and commutations for the january 6th people who are now being put in jail, because he thinks that's what trump's voters, i guess, want to hear, or maybe he does believe that. but this is what's working for the moment. >> yeah. that was the other key part of what pence said. it wasn't just about trump. it was those being echoes of trump, saying they'd will power the way trump has done. we're seeing it on the state level. the tennessee three, the effort to throw them out, another way that republicans have tried to overturn the will of the people in order to get what they want. we're seeing that play out in this gop primary stage, where trump is 40 to 50 points up on everyone else. the other candidates, as you say, who have had moments of success were those doing trump impersonations. mike pence is right. history will regard mike pence as right. in this moment, it doesn't matter. mike pence is losing and losing badly. the argument he is making,

again, will be validated by history, let us all hope, but, right now, that is a losing argument in the republican party. >> you know, mika, since 1992, the republican party has won the popular vote in one presidential election. since 1992, the republican party has lost the popular vote in seven of the eight presidential elections since then. there are dramatic demographic changes that are happening. we've known for over a generation that there would come a time when this would cease to be a majority white country. and there is no doubt that much of this is a republican party

that is saying, "we're just going to lose elections from now on. so let's just say the hell with elections. let's just say the hell with democracy because we're going to keep losing." again, they've lost the popular vote seven out of eight times since 1992. so i guess they're just thinking, instead of us changing, instead of us figuring out how to update an 1849 abortion ban in wisconsin, let's just say the hell to the voters and impeach the judge that won a landslide election there. they've got it backwards. they're going to lose. make no mistake, this is about power and nothing but power. they're losing it. they know they're losing it. they're willing to throw the american experiment down the

drain to save their power. >> yeah. they've caused a lot of damage in the way, which makes one of our top stories this morning. the one woman who has taken on donald trump for years now and keeps on winning, even more impressive. a judge ruled donald trump defamed writer e. jean carroll when he was president in 2019. carroll filed the lawsuit in response to the comments the former president made shortly after she came forward with her allegation that he raped her in a new york city department store. this case is separate from the lawsuit carroll won back in may, when a jury found trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation. that defamation award stems from statements trump made on truth social last year, calling carroll a, quote, con job. a federal judge has decided those comments and the ones

mentioned in the second lawsuit are, quote, substantially the same. there's no need to argue that in court again. as a result, the case will only focus on how much money in damages trump should pay carroll. the trial is set to begin in january. trump has already been ordered to pay carroll $5 million for the first lawsuit, but he is appealing the verdict. joyce, what does this tell you? this is one of, i don't know, five, six legal cases against the president. e. jean carroll, man, she's not stopping any time soon. >> no, she's been tenacious in pursuing this case. of course, it's different from the criminal prosecutions. no one goes to prison at the end of this case. trump has been ordered to pay $5 million in the first lawsuit. that was actually the second lawsuit carroll filed. it was about comments that he made after his left the

presidency. this case in january, when it goes to trial, carroll's lawyers have a very different opportunity when it comes to arguing for damages. they're entitled to ask that the damages punish trump, but also that they be large enough to prevent him from continuing to defame her. mika, i know that you'll recall that the day after this first jury verdict against trump, he went back out on national television and repeated the defamation of carroll. so her lawyers can ask for a significantly larger amount than $5 million. that's not something that the former president looks forward to. in fact, we know in many ways, these monetary losses are personally very damaging to him and his pride. yet another venue of attack against trump coming early next year. >> susan page, e. jean carroll and her attorney, robbie kaplan, in particular, have been tenacious on this. there is this idea that donald trump gets away with everything,

always has, always will. what they're saying in this case at least is, actually, that's not true. donald trump, who thinks he lives and operates with impunity, they're just saying, "if you want to keep doing this, we can keep doing this. we'll take another $5 million from you if you want to keep defaming us publicly. let's do it again." >> you know, what's remarkable, big defeat for donald trump on this. no question about, according to the judge, whether he defamed her. that's determined. the other remarkable thing is that, in the plea of all the legal challenges that donald trump has, the fact he is likely to be ordered to pay millions and millions of dollars more to her is not his biggest problem. in some ways, when you look at the cases that are going to be coming up in the next year or two, this is the smallest problem he has. that is a sign of what remarkable terrain we are in here. he's the other question, if the damages are intended to prevent donald trump from continuing to defame her, and perhaps others, is there much of a possibility

that it will work? i'll leave that to you. >> all right. well, we have so much more to cover this morning, especially with joyce. news out of fulton county. ahead on "morning joe," mehdi hasan joins us with his heated interview with vivek ramaswamy. what the white house hopeful had to say when confronted about his past criticisms of donald trump. plus, what we're learning about a new indictment against president biden's son, hunter, expected later this month. also ahead, minority leader mitch mcconnell faces questions about retirement following recent health scares. what he had to say to reporters yesterday about his future plans. and senator elizabeth warren is our guest this morning, amid concerns about a government shutdown at the end of the month. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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i don't think you can clear this. i got this. it's yours now. if you have to go to trial, will you testify in your own defense? >> oh, yes, absolutely. >> you'll take the stand? >> that i look forward to. >> i think that obstruction charge is going to get to trial, mr. president. >> at trial, i'll testify. >> okay. if you do, and they ask you on the stand, "did you order anyone to move boxes, "how will you answer? >> i'm not answering that question to you. but i'm totally covered under the law. >> okay. >> if you read the presidential records act, just read it. you take a look at it. i'm totally covered under the law. it's a civil act. it's civil. now, biden had no civil act.

the things he did are criminal. but he doesn't have a deranged person on his case. >> okay. >> seriously, give me a break. >> just please. >> donald trump lying. >> how could you sit there and listen to that? >> dear god. >> he's lying on so many levels. >> it's boring. >> first of all, he will never testify. he'll say, in two weeks, i am going to testify! in two weeks. >> i'm totally covered. >> i am going to put out my full georgia report. in two weeks, i'm going to build a rocketship at mar-a-lago and fly to the moon. >> in two weeks. >> all lies. first of all, joyce, let's just say it right here, et's just say it -- i hear people banging trash cans. >> it is heilemann. >> sorry. >> are the astros in 30 rock? does that mean i'm supposed to throw a fastball, or am i supposed to have an off-speed pitch to joyce? >> i kicked it. >> heilemann has a twitchy leg.

>> he literally has restless leg syndrome. >> tighten it up. >> it's correct. >> sounded like every astros game a couple years ago. by the way, did they take the trash cans on the road? i'm just curious how they did that, as much as they did it. >> no, just back to joyce. >> joyce, we all know, first of all, donald trump lying, it's not covered by anything. obstructing justice is not covered by anything. secondly, explain why no lawyer will ever let donald trump testify under oath and why donald trump will never have his lawyer testify under oath. >> donald trump is not capable of taking the witness stand and telling the truth. he's not capable of following any instructions he's given about what he can and can't testify to. >> yes, ding, ding. >> this clip, joe, it's a great example of that, because trump

would, for instance, very likely be prohibited from talking about what he claims is the civil presidential records act that protects him at trial. prosecutors would file a motion to exclude that because it's not true and it's not relevant. but trump would likely be bombastic on the witness stand, saying things that would get him into deeper trouble. it would essentially be malpractice for a lawyer to let him testify under oath. >> okay. joyce, can you tell me about georgia yesterday, exactly what happened with chesebro and sidney powell being denied their request? >> yeah, this is a preview of how confusing a trial with 19 defendants can get, joe. but the most important takeaways from yesterday are this young judge, who come people had been skeptical of, is very firmly in command of his courtroom. he made a quick decision from the bench, argued, as he had to, that the two defendants who

asked for speedy trials will get them. those who will go to trial in october. but sidney powell and kenneth cheseboro will be tried together. they will not get the separate trials they asked for. the fate of the remaining 17 defendants isn't entirely clear, but it sounded like the judge was considering very seriously trying them together in one group. that's in large part because of this forceful argument that prosecutors make, that no matter how many separate trials are held in the georgia matter, in each one, prosecutors have to prove not just the limited number of overt acts that an individual defendant was involved in, but the entire rico conspiracy that they've charged. prosecutors say that'll take some four months. it'll involve 150 witnesses. so they took it straight to the judge and just said, "the issue, your honor, is how many times do you want to have to retry this same case?" sounds to me the judge will do

it in two, at most, three tranches. >> joyce, let's talk about what the judge said about the actual process of the trial. judge mcafee expressing some skepticism that these defendants could be tried together and in a speedy way. he said, it seems unrealistic to handle all 19 in a handful of days. a trial for all 19 defendants would include 150 witnesses and last about four months. he's going to come to a decision, he says, sometime next week. how do you see this playing out from here, joyce? >> so there are a lot of moving parts here, but his assessment is a very praguepragmatic one. he was saying in the period of time between today or yesterday and late october, when the first two defendants are scheduled to go to trial, he couldn't put all of the defendants into that courtroom so quickly, and even

decide all the pretrial motions they would file. there would be a failureflurry motions to sever. it is surprising that fani willis continues to insist all 19 be tried this quickly, because if there were convictions, they would be very vulnerable on appeal to claims the defendants didn't get the due process they were entitled to, that they were forced to rush to trial very quickly. so that, i think, is the important part of what goes on here. the judges making good decisions early on, designed to protect the ultimate results of any trial here. >> susan page, let's talk about the politics of georgia, which is going to be perhaps the closest state on the map next november. if joyce's analysis is correct and this trial doesn't come to be, the trump portion of it, voters will be deprived of seeing him sitting in a

courtroom day after day during this trial, but, yet, it is still going to shadow the race there. it is also interesting, the state, because the republican establishment, including the governor, stood up against him. how do you see it playing out in the peach state? >> if you're down to the crucial swing states, georgia will be one of them next year. it's interesting. if the republican party, the traditional republican party has been on the run most places in this country, georgia has been different because of the governor and other officials who stood up to the pressure from donald trump to change the results of the election. i agree with you, though, i would love to see court hearings on television. i think they're so interesting. they're so informative and educational. it's like c-span for the judicial system. i'm all for it. i would just, you know -- joyce, who knows more about the law than i do, of course, says trump will not testify. let me vote in favor of trump testifying because that is something i would really love to

see. [ laughter ] >> there is that. >> that would be a blast. well, former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you so much. we want to hear more about this. >> thank you, joyce. >> joyce and her sisters-in-law, best podcast in law in the business. they talk, actually, about the georgia case. >> so good. >> make sure to download "sisters-in-law." thank you so much for being with us, joyce. jonathan lemire, you weren't born, i don't think, when secretariat won the -- >> no, definitely not. >> -- the kentucky derby. >> nope. >> you didn't realize that secretariat started slow. >> 31 lengths. >> what have i been telling ya? they're undefeated in september. >> undefeated in september. >> here comes secretariat. >> uh-huh. >> take it away, tell us what happens. right now, we're not even

looking like sham, who placed in the kentucky derby. we're looking like the pace horse who was, like, eating oats in the midfield at churchill downs. the yankees are about to zoom right past the red sox, aren't they, jonathan? >> yeah, the red sox, at this point, look like one of the horses that goes out back after the race and you never hear from again. >> come on! >> here's the real issue, here's the real issue. >> don't go there. >> no. >> "the new york post" puts it on the back page. it notes on august 28th, that's before the yankees began their undefeated september, the yankees were 11 games out of the playoffs. that is now just 6.5. >> holy cow! >> they're just 6.5. >> here they come. >> barely more than a week's time, they have shaved off nearly five games. you can hear them coming on the outside rail, joe. >> the yankees. >> thundering down the rail. undefeated in september. likely to be undefeated in october, as well. >> okay. >> wow.

>> all right. coming up -- >> willie, willie, i told you this. >> mika tried. >> i did. >> i told you this first, willie. they are going to make the wild card, then they're going to win, what, their 28th world series? >> yup. >> yeah. >> you know, what's great about this, and you'll appreciate this, as usual, the yankees doing it from the ground up, through the farm system. >> yes. >> they're not paying some big star a whole bunch of money. jason dominguez, austin wells, the guys coming up, like jeter, rivera, posada before them. dominguez, the martian, because he plays like he's from another planet, hit his first home run at yankees stadium last night. hit a couple on the road. >> trying to say he is not actually a martian? >> look at that swing. judge, wow. if not this year, guys, the future is bright. i know how excited you are in the bronx. >> no. >> you know what they say, willie, the future is now. here's the difference between where the yankees are right now

and where the red sox are. i mean, the yankees have a guy they call the martian because it looks like he comes from another planet, as you said. the red sox, we call our guys on our team the jv-ers. you don't have to figure out why. it's looking rough. heilemann, yesterday, while i go on this stream of consciousness, don't know where it is going to go. >> don't know where it is going next. >> go back to bed. >> baby, we talked about the bear yesterday. i just want to say on the air again today, second season, episodes five, six and seven, may be the three greatest back-to-back-to-back episodes. >> did you watch another one? >> in the history of television. >> baby, i told you it was seven. i saw seven. >> did you watch it without me? >> by the way, "forks,"

mind-blowing. i thought mind was mind-blowing with the ending, one of my favorite songs of all time. john heilemann, holy moly, like, five, six, seven, incredible episodes in "the bear." >> you know, it'd be good if "morning joe" -- here's the dow of the bear, every second counts, right? this show has never -- it's never been focused on -- >> the opposite. >> squander seconds here. >> squander hours. >> every four hours counts. >> you know, joe texted me. it was good to see after joe had done his brilliant interview with jamie lee curtis. >> she is amazing. >> joe obviously watched the whole of season two of "the bear," i thought, because the interview was so good. jamie curtis was on, playing the matriarch in two episodes of "the bear" this season. i thought, joe must be a huge fan. he called me the other day and i realized, he had seen her episodes but not the whole season. >> right. we're watching it together. >> i said, well, you have to

watch this, you have to watch -- so when he watched episode seven, "forks," the episode in which richie, played brilliantly, comes into his own, one of the most life-affirming episodes in the series, and it was brilliant. he said, these are the three greatest back-to-back scripted television ever. i said, are you watching mika? he said, don't tell her i skipped it. >> okay, so -- >> then you volunteered it on live tv. what are you going to do? >> i didn't say that, first of all. secondly, i've been very disciplined, very disciplined, mika, about all of this. i wanted to watch them all like jack scarborough. we watch an episode or two together, then the next morning, we come down to breakbreakfast, we're like, want to watch episode three? jack is like, i watched all two

seasons last night. incredible. >> yeah. >> watch "forks," mika, because i'm moving forward to eight. >> wow. >> we have to get to the end of this year. >> just -- >> with you. >> you're lying. >> you have to get "forks" out of the way. >> take the fork and go. >> fifth episode ends with, can't hardly wait for the replacements. he can't hardly wait either, can't wait to move on. >> exactly. ♪ do do do do do ♪ coming up, new reporting detailing congresswoman pelosi's political future. why our next guest who spent 12 hours shadowing her in san francisco for a new profile -- >> did she get a restraining order? >> -- says she might run again. we'll look at the reasons behind that decision, next on "morning joe." >> here it comes!

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it's the mobile made free event-happening now. get started for just $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. comcast business, powering possibilities. what do you make of the criticism the president is getting, that he is too old to have a second term? >> i think the president should embrace his age, his experience, what he -- the knowledge that he brings to the job. actually, the leader on the other side is not much younger. you know, i don't like to use his name, but you know who i mean. >> yeah. >> he's not that much younger. so age is a relative thing. i think this president, our country is very well served by his leadership. again, his experience, his knowledge, and it counts for a lot. >> that, of course, is speaker

emerita nancy pelosi, encouraging biden to embrace his age. "politico magazine" details how the former house speaker may be prepared to take her own advice. jonathan martin has a deep dive looking into why nancy pelosi might run again. senior columnist for "politico," jonathan martin joins us now. good morning. let's read a little from your piece out in "politico magazine." you write, nancy pelosi is a towering figure, perhaps the most consequential speaker to wield the gavel and the most elected woman in american history, at a time when her counterparts in the oval office and senate leadership suite are visually hobbled by age. the 83-year-old san franciscan, older than joe biden and senator mitch mcconnell, seemingly defies the march of time. now, having relinquished her leadership role in washington, the question is if she will do the same with her house seat, at a time when california's clout in the capitol is diminished.

her party is lead to northeasterners in the white house and both chambers of congress, and san francisco is facing acute, if not as dire as portrayed, challenges in the aftermath of the pandemic. jonathan, you spent a bunch of time with the former speaker of the house. did you come away thinking she is going to hang in for a couple more terms? >> i don't know about a couple more terms, willie, but i think she is really struggling with whether or not to hang it up. in part because of the challenges that san francisco is facing right now, and there's few people, frankly in the history of the u.s. congress, who were better positioned to work the levers of federal, state, local government, to help a district than she is. willie, there is also the issue of senator feinstein. this was probably the tensest part of our conversation. i spent most of a 12-hour day riding around with the former speaker throughout san francisco. it got pretty tense talking

about senator feinstein. obviously, her condition, which is pretty serious. pelosi, willie, has been much more personally involved than is publicly known in making the case that feinstein should be able to decide on her own what to do. obviously, feinstein wants to stay in office. but this is a factor because san francisco will be looking at the prospect of really, in about five, six years' time, losing barbara boxer, dianne feinstein and speaker nancy pelosi. that's a lot of clout for one city and a real time of need to lose in its federal delegation. then, lastly, this is personal for her, willie. obviously, her husband did suffer an attack. i saw him out there. he looks a lot better now. but she has lived her city's disorder in a very personal way. it showed up on her doorstep quite literally. so there's that factor, too.

the last thing i'll mention, her daughter, christine, who was widely seen as a potential heir to that seat, that's also a factor, as well. there's a lot going on for her personally and professionally with this choice. >> jonathan, i understand the political reality that you've just described, the practical implications of what's happening with san francisco, but what about the generational tension that we're seeing in the democratic party right now? what does it mean for the former speaker to be thinking about this in this moment where we see and hear young people clamoring for a younger generation of leaders in the democratic party and for the nation broadly? >> well, look, there's no question about it, that there is a long line of people in that city who are eager to stake their claim to her seat. she's had the seat since 1987. there's sort of people who are eager to make a move. the broader challenge for people like pelosi and biden is that,

for all of their service, a lot of americans, especially those under 30, they just want to see somebody who is closer to their own age, who understands their perspective more, on the country, on the world. that, obviously, is something pelosi has to deal with. i mean, she recognizes this. she comes from a city that is known for its cultural challenging of the status quo. she recognizes that. for a lot of the members, as joe knows, it's darn hard to walk away. >> jonathan, congratulations on getting an actual answer to the question about whether she wants to be ambassador to italy. i've been speculating about that for years. maybe i'll stop because you got a denial from paul pelosi, and i assume that's the last word on that. i'm wondering, though, her sensitivity about dianne feinstein's future, when she is

clearly in serious health decline. is there some other reason she wants to make sure that feinstein stays in office until the end of her term? is she trying to engineer, for instance, who might be in a position to replace her? >> susan asked a very good question. there was a very good book about speaker pelosi, as well, that chronicles her rise. but, yes, part of pelosi's motivation here when it comes to feinstein is, yes, the appearance of pushing a prominent woman out of the senate, but it also owes to the succession issues in the senate. namely the fact that pelosi wants adam schiff to succeed feinstein. schiff, one of her closest allies and lieutenants in the house. pelosi knows if feinstein has to resign, gavin newsom pledged publicly to appoint a black woman, complicating adam schiff's assent to the u.s.

senate. there is some california dominos falling there, as well, yeah. >> you know, jonathan, i just -- i always am so appreciative whenever you're around 30a or you see any articles on 30a in northwest florida, you always send the articles or pictures to me. that is literally my neck of the woods. you know, i grew up there and would go down there in the late '70s and early '80s before it grew up. the most beautiful area in the world. >> yeah. >> i heard, and you ought to look for this instagram reel, somebody took pictures, a drone over 30a, over those beautiful line of trees, and they had jimmy buffett singing "a pirate turns 40." i'm telling you, the guy is already the patron saint of 30a, the stretch all along the gulf coast.

>> the white beaches. >> he's incredible. >> the white beaches, yeah. >> just incredible. >> it's a gorgeous place. >> all right. thank you so much for being with us, jonathan. >> thanks, joe, appreciate it. >> greatly appreciate it. the new piece is online for "politico." senate majority leader mitch mcconnell has no plans to retire early following two apparent medical episodes. taking questions from reporters yesterday, the 81-year-old republican vowed to finish out his term. >> you've had all these evaluations. what have doctors said is the precise medical reason for those two freeze ups? >> what dr. monahan's report addressed was concerns people might have with some things that happened to me, did happen or they didn't. really, i have nothing to add to that. i think he pretty well covered the subject.

>> what do you say to those who are call on you to step down? do you have any plans to retire any time soon? >> i have no announcements to make on that subject. >> what do you say to those who are -- >> i'm going to finish my term as leader, and i'm going to finish my senate term. >> john heilemann, we should note, the only republicans publicly suggesting mcconnell might not be fit for office are those who don't like him much, including rand paul, fellow kentukian, josh hahawley. others are saying he can do the job. we've seen the freeze ups here. what does this mean for the republican party? this is not a story line that will go away, and there will be questions on whether he can keep the caucus in check, being a bulwark to maga and dealing with the potential shutdown and beyond. >> the keyword is publicly, what senators are saying publicly

versus privately. with feinstein, too, there is a public conversation and a private conversation. no one wants to cross mcconnell. they learned what happens when you do that. still in his, i would say, frailed condition, not in full power, still exercises an enormous power of the chamber and people learned what happens if you get on the wrong side of him. this question, though, of who is going to lead the party going forward is the talk on the senate side, the talk in the republican cloak room, and it is in this fight on the house side. whether there will be funding for ukraine, if it leads to a government shutdown. if republicans go the opposite where mcconnell wants it to go. because of that, their politics, the political prospects of 2024. mcconnell is important for the party and across the board politically with what happens in the next election. >> eddie glaude, seems to me

there is a difference between where mitch mcconnell is right now and dianne feinstein. feinstein, i think her daughter has her power of attorney. dianne feinstein, obviously, struggling day in and day out to figure out where she is. mitch mcconnell fell, hit his head, had a bad concussion, and he is having a hard time getting past that. he seems to be coherent most of the time. he had two episodes, and doctor says, that happens. >> there is a difference between the two, but i also think the broader question of the age of the leadership of the country, i think that needs to be addressed at some point directly, it seems to me. we can talk about what i mean by that, but i think there is a kind of clamoring for where we're going, what will be the next phase of leadership for the nation at large. >> john heilemann, susan page, thank you, both, very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," new pushback from a house

republican on the impeachment inquiry that has been floated by kevin mccarthy. it could put the house speaker in a tough spot with the far-right members of his party. plus, nearly 150,000 auto workers could soon be on the picket lines. we'll get an update on the strike that is looming over detroit. that's ahead on "morning joe." my name is kilah and concrete has been my career. i'm a cement mason by trade. being a mom is hard, it's just hard in a different way. it's really unique to catch a break. i feel like joe biden understands people like me. all the things that biden fought to get passed help the middle class. wages are going up around here. the people that i deal with on a day-to-day basis they're getting a pay raise. what president biden has accomplished

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people up here in the pentagon, i don't know what they do every day, but they're more of giving advice. you know, it's just a surprise to me that, you know, these are all number one, joe biden's civilian appointees, the secretaries of air force, the navy, the army. >> what an idiot. >> what? >> what an idiot. let me just say it again, what an idiot. you don't know what our military leaders do in the pentagon every

day? >> oh, he clearly doesn't. >> you think they're just about giving advice? i -- the ignorance. this guy, i've got to bring in claire mccaskill here. general hurdling, a guy who knows what he is doing, re-tweeted an interview he had on fox news, where tuberville said that the navy secretary has to get wokeness out of the navy because, quote, we've got people doing poems on aircraft carriers." the general said, "what i wouldn't give to have a real journalist say something as simple as, what the f are you talking about, senator?" now, senator, you served on this committee in the senate. i was on the armed services committee in the house. it's not that hard to figure out what they're doing at the

pentagon every day, and it has to do with protecting america from our enemies and planning on keeping this country safe and keeping our allies safe and keeping freedom safe from tyranny. also, i must say, from idiocy like that guy. >> yeah. um, you know, i got to tell you the truth, when i came to washington, i was steeped in some negative feelings about the military because the iraq war had gone on. i'd seen all the waste and, you know, all the stuff that had gone on there with contractors. so i got a seat on the armed services committee, and over the next year or two, my attitude about the military changed dramatically. because i had a chance to see the leadership and to understand what they did every day. it was an honor and a privilege.

i'm not saying that everybody in the military is perfect or the military hasn't made mistakes. i banged on them pretty hard about a lot of their contractors practices and the money they wasted. but for a man to sit in the united states senate, from the state of alabama, and talk about this kind of disregard of our military leadership, all you have to do is look at ukraine and see how badly russia has performed, how unready they were, how their logistics were a joke, and then you really understand how good our military is. that would never have happened if the united states was trying to be on the ground in a country. i really am disgusted by this guy, and he is hurting our military. it used to be a disqualification in the republican party if you did not support the military. this guy is trying to dismantle our military, and it appears to me he is not paying a political

price for it. he damn well should. >> mm-hmm. >> well, despite the fact that the people of alabama, willie, oppose this, like, in polls, they want tuberville to move on from -- you know, he has now stopped three services from having a leader. the marines don't have a commandant for the first time in 150 years because of tommy tuberville. you know, alabama has always been -- the people of alabama have always been strongly supportive of the united states military. for a guy to go in there and just talk like a fool, saying, "i don't know what they do in the pentagon all day," well, learn! find out! you're a united states senator. again, going back to the jonah goldberg piece again, this guy is a perfect example. jonah talks about how there's

this stupid, lazy assumption that everybody is corrupt, everybody is on the take, everybody is there for the wrong reason. you know, i knew a -- like claire, i knew political types in the pentagon. i knew generals that had one star that were focused on getting the second star and little else. but i have to say, 99% of the people who were there were good, honorable americans who were there to serve their country, even if it meant willing to go to war, willing to sacrifice themselves, willing to sacrifice their lives, willing to be away from their family for months, years at a time. and those are the people that tommy tuberville is hurting every single day. it's disgusting. >> and this is the end result. this is what we're seeing now of

the rot that has been around for too long now, which is, anything that runs counter to what i want to happen, anything that runs counter to what i believe must be discredited. apparently, now the united states military, it can be capitol police, can be, you know, prosecutors, it can be judges, it can be juries. it can be the constitution in the case of donald trump. mike barnicle, who joins us now at the table, i'll give some numbers from the pentagon given because of what senator tuberville is doing. there are 301 generals and admirals in limbo right now. 83 three-stars or four-star fom nati nominations are pending. as joe said, the three branches of the military service don't have leaders at this point. either way, it's bad. if you really don't know, which i find that hard to believe, what they do at the pentagon, that's real bad. if you are cynically pretending you don't know what they do for

some, i don't know what, you can get a rule change for getting abortions out of stat changed, that's even worse. >> this is about abortion. >> we've had discussions about the age issue, having to do with mitch mcconnell, president biden, and the aging of politics in america and people who serve in politics. we have very little discussion about the caliber of people who serve. caliber. like, intellectual caliber. like, moral character caliber. >> mm-hmm. >> like tommy tuberville's lack of character, his lack of intellect. ron johnson in wisconsin, his lack of intellect, his selfish approach to everything. i'm speaking about both of these guys now, but tuberville in specific. for him to say he doesn't know much about what's going on in the pentagon, he doesn't have to go to the pentagon. cross the bridge and go to

quantico. look at the training class of the marine corps offices. he can go to his home state, any post in his home state, and look at the caliber of officers serving. look at the sacrifice their make. i'm not talking about the sacrifice of carrying arms in war. i'm talking about the sacrifice of taking families from one post to another, year after year after year, and this year, start of a school year right now in august for many of them, they don't know where they're going. >> they're waiting. >> where they're serving, what their rank is going to be, what the pay scale is going to be, and what their promotion prospects are going to be. shame on tommy tuberville. >> shame on tommy tuberville. shame on republicans for letting this happen. shame on republicans for saying they wish that our troops were more like russian troops. you know, this is personal. mika, of course, mika's brother served in the united states army. mika has a nephew who got out of college, could have got a job anywhere. he decided he wanted to serve his country, and he wanted to be in the marine corps.

he has busted his ass. he has gone through hell like all marines do, like all marines do. he has sacrificed. why? because he loves this country. >> like all marines do. >> he wants to give his all to this country. that's why you become a marine. i'm not sure why you become a football coach. i like football coaches. i loved coaching football. it was one of the best jobs i've had. it ain't being a marine, tommy. it ain't being a marine. it ain't being a member of the united states army. it ain't being a ranger. i mean, i can go down the services and the sacrifice these men and women make. you know, mike talks about it. mike talks about the sacrifices that our soldiers and our sailors and our marines and our

members of our airmen, members of the coast guard, that they make. i think it's disgusting, what he said. i also think it's disgusting how little some of them get paid. there are actually people serving this country that are on food stamps. >> yeah. >> but they keep doing it because they want to serve america. and who the hell is tommy tuberville to do this? who the hell are these republicans who are allowing this to happen?hell are the republicans that say whether our troops, our marines, our soldiers, our sailors, our airmen, our members of the coast guard, who are these republicans to say that they're weak? weak? why don't you go down to quantico. why don't you try to do what a marine has to do to become a marine. weak? why don't you go through ranger

school? why don't you try it. weak? why don't you go out to coronado. see what it takes for one day to become a s.e.a.l. weak? no, no. there is a reason why the russians are scared to death of us. there's a reason why the chinese are scared to death of our military. because they're the best in the world. they're stronger than they've ever been relative to the rest of the world since 1945, mika. i've got to say, there is, as willie said, going back to jonah goldberg, as he said, there is a rot in american conservatism. there is a rot in the republican party. tommy tuberville is a perfect metaphor, a perfect example of that rot. >> yeah. >> and they're allowing people who have children, who have

families, who have sacrificed for years for their families, to sacrifice for this country, who are in limbo because tommy tuberville wants to make a political point, that even the good people of alabama are begging him to stop. it's disgusting. >> well, he's also -- if anything is weakening the military, it would be tommy tuberville. >> and the republicans. >> on top of it, keeping women who are serving in the military or who want to serve in the military thinking twice about it because of this abortion issue, which is exactly what tommy tuberville is hinging this holdup on. this issue is another reason the republicans just find themselves on the losing side of everything, and they choose to lose more. look what they're doing to the country. look at the front page of "the new york times." "help for risky pregnancies drops as doctors flee abortion limits." they're looking at one state, idaho, where doctors are leaving

because of the strict abortion rules, because they can't give the care that women need to the women without getting arrested. now, there are literally deserts in maternity care and ob-gyn care in one state, and probably many others. this is one of many examples. again, thanks to the republicans. thanks to donald trump. thanks to people like tommy tuberville who want to take this issue and push it to the extreme. again, if anyone is making our military weak, it's tommy. >> it's tommy tuberville and it's republicans who are saying they're weak and woke and are saying the russians are better than we are, which is, again, that's un-american. that's un-american. claire mccaskill, really quickly and then we'll get past this, but i want to go to you. i remember going to the pentagon. i remember when leaders would come to the armed services committee, and somebody would bring up a society issue. they'd sit there and be very

polite. very deferential because, you know, they have to be deferential to civilian leadership. but they would say, "sir or ma'am, could you please have your debate about social issues on the floor of congress? keep the armed services committee about protecting and defending the united states of america. please, just please do that for us." we always respected them because, yeah, they were right. you know, armed services committee isn't about abortion. it isn't about all these other issues. it's about protecting, defending the united states of america. tommy tuberville is taking a social issue, and he is literally, literally doing everything he can to hurt the pentagon and the united states

military, because he's not getting his way on an issue that has nothing to do with national security. >> yeah, let's just say for a minute a woman serving in the military from missouri is overseas, and she is raped in a foreign country. they send her back to missouri. all this policy says is that she will be given time off and some travel money if she wants to travel to another state to terminate the pregnancy from somebody who raped her in a foreign country while she was serving in uniform. this is not -- this is not an unreasonable policy. i will say, the most corrosive thing these idiots are doing to our institutions is they are taking institutions like the military, that is non-political, non-partisan, non-steeped in cultural issues, military, the fbi, our criminal justice system, they are trying to make long-time prosecutors, long-time fbi agents, long-term military servicemen, they're trying to

turn them into political operatives. they're using them for political purposes in ways that is dishonest and really, really damaging. it is something that we should all be aware of and, frankly, the fact that the republican party is tearing up the fbi, law enforcement, and the military ought to be a wake-up call to every republican who might still have a conservative bone in their body. also with us this morning, msnbc host mehdi hasan. mehdi, you interviewed republican presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy and pressed him on his former thoughts on donald trump. >> you said he acted in abhorrent behavior that made him a danger to democracy. what did he do that was down right horrible? >> let's be really fair to your audience. on january 10th, 2021, thereabouts, days after the incident, i wrote an op-ed in

the "wall street journal," arguing that censorship was the real cause of what happened on january 6th. when asked in response, somebody asked me the question -- well, that's what i wrote. that's a hard fact. it was in the "wall street journal." when pressed on, was that condoning what trump did, my answer was no. there is a difference between a bad judgment and a crime. >> understood. you're disregarding my question. >> i'm not avoiding it. >> what did donald trump do that was down right abhorrent? >> what i would have done differently if i were in his shoes -- >> not what i asked, with respect. >> -- on january 7th. >> i'll ask a third time. what did trump do that was egregious, quote, down right abhorrent, and a danger to democracy? explain to the viewers. your words. >> so you're mixing two quotes. what did i think was reprehensible about what happened that day? look, i think the way a true leader should have handled that situation should have been to actually say, this is me running for re-election, not litigating what is already past and behind

us. i would have done things differently. that is not a crime, though, what he did. >> i understand. >> the reason i have been -- >> you keep saying what you would have done. i want to hear from your mouth -- >> i would -- >> why won't you say what he did what was abhorrent? >> i'm not going to let you -- you're stitching together three things. >> okay. what trump did last week -- >> have an actual conversation? >> yes, i want you to answer my question. three times i asked it. what did trump do that was downright abhorrent? it is a simple question, your words. it's on the screen. what did he do that was downright abhorrent? >> i believe that failing to unite this country falls short of what a true leader ought to do. that is why i'm in this case, to do things differently than any prior president has done them. that is the hard truth. >> that's what made him a sore loser and abhorrent, right? your words. >> the reality is none of that is a crime. the reason i have been so vocal -- >> okay. >> the reason i have been so vocal is because when somebody

actually prosecutes somebody for a bad judgment, and i have been clear, he made bad judgments. >> i understand that. i understand. >> there is a distinction we have to draw. >> mehdi, first and foremost, nice job. that was excellent interviewing. we'll note that, also, he called the insurrection of january 6th at the capitol an incident. but let's hear you, as you play, as you watch yourself there and watch the interview, just get your sense, your reaction, your takeaway as to what this says about vivek ramaswamy, but also the republican party as a whole? >> well, the top takeaway, jonathan, is that he is clearly, in my view, running for vp. he wants to be trump's vice president, which is why, as you saw there, he will not say about donald trump what he himself said in january 2021 on twitter, as i quoted him saying. he won't quote in his book of last year, september 2022, writes a book, "nation of victims," and says "donald trump

is a sore loser with a persecution complex who is a danger to democracy." he won't say that today even though he is running against him, because he really wants to be his vp, i suspect. some in the desantis team suspect that his job is the stop desantis candidate. it says a lot about the republican party, that none of the major candidates really want to challenge trump. so far, he's run this kind of superficial eloquent, talks fas confidently. chris christie chaired -- compared him to chat gpt. when pressed, he doesn't know what to do or what to say. >> mehdi, as you sat there live interviewing him, and as you sat there this morning watching it again, this horribly annoying person, did it occur to you during the course of the live interview, did it occur to you that maybe you were wasting 5, 10, 15 minutes of your life that you'll never get back interviewing this person?

>> geez. >> it's a great question, mike. i have a hygiene test on my show, where i don't allow election deniers, climate deniers, anti-vaxers on, precisely because you're right, there can be a waste of time when you interview bad faith actors. to be fair to vivek, he is not a election denier in the traditional sense, and whether we like it or not, he is a contender in the race, in third place. and i thought, look, this guy has been getting away with saying so much nonsense so far. he's able to pivot away from questions he doesn't like. he's able to attack the liberal fake news media in trumpian fashion. he denies things on tape. he denies more things than any other politician denies things. >> that's what i don't understand, mehdi, about this era. they deny things that we have -- >> it's right here, yeah. >> -- on tape and twitter. he is denying it, mehdi, while

you are putting his words up on twitter, on the full screen. go ahead, mehdi. sorry to interrupt. >> no, i was going to say, there is another moment in the exchange where we talked about the scholarship he got from the sorros family as a law student. he said, i didn't have money. he denied saying it, and then i had to say, you did say it. he said, check my tax returns. i said, i have them here. you made 650k. you didn't need the scholarship. he relies on people not holding him to account. to go back to mike's question, that's why i wanted to do it. certain people, no matter how annoying it may be to do it, you have to hold them to account. >> okay. >> mehdi, there has been this conventional wisdom, i think in large part true, that he is a cynical actor. he is a smart guy, whether you like him or not, disagree with him or not, and he is saying the things and pushing the buttons that he believes the trump voters and the base want to hear. take the debate for example. but then there are motions like last week, he did an interview

where he was asked about the war in russia, the war in ukraine. he said, i said we need to cut off aid to ukraine because this is some three-dimensional chess moment, where we need to prop up russia as a bulwark against china, so this is really about china. you know, even the most conservative of foreign policy analysts went, this is insane. this is crazy. it's not grounded in anything. it's a bad idea. it doesn't make sense. where do you come down after studying him and talking with him? is he just a cynical actor, or is he really naive about a lot of stuff? >> i think a bit of both. there's cynicism and naivety. we had a long back and forth about his idea that mike pence should have unilaterally passed voting reform on january 6th. you know, in congress as vice president. he doesn't understand the role of the vice president. on the russia/china exchange, he has this line. i watched a lot of his interviews and he says it again and again, i'll end the

russia/china alliance. i'll get putin to stop being the little brother to xi. he says it confidently. the question i put to him was, why should we take you seriously when you say you're the guy to end the war? what have you ever done in your life that suggests you can end a war? you know, i pointed out to him, i could go on the street of washington, d.c., stop someone at random, and they have as much experience of stopping a foreign war as vivek ramaswamy. that's not an insult, it's just a fact. >> well, mehdi's full interview with vivek ramaswamy is available now on youtube. i want to see the whole thing. you can also see it tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern time streaming on the mehdi hasan show on peacock. the show airs sundays at 8:00 p.m. on msnbc. mehdi, thanks for being on this morning. great job with that. still ahead on "morning joe," 2024 white house hopeful mike pence goes after his former boss, donald trump, while campaigning in new hampshire. what he had to say about the growing divide within the republican party.

plus, nearly 150,000 employees in the united auto workers union could go on strike at the end of next week. we'll be joined by the union's president for the very latest on where negotiations stand right now. also ahead, best selling author, malcolm gladwell is our guest this morning. he joins us to discuss the new season of his podcast, "revisionist history." you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

shingles. the rash can feel like an intense burning sensation and last for weeks. it can make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles. wow, a beautiful life picture from our friends at wnbc. that is, mika, chopper 4 on a day that is going to be -- i think the meteorological term is gross. 95 and humid in new york city. >> no. >> we're not alalone. up and down the coast, it'll be tough today.

it is looking increasingly liking 100,000 auto workers will go on strike the end of next week as contract negotiations with detroit's big three automakers seem to be moving along barely at all. in a moment, we'll be joined by the uaw president. first, details from nbc news correspondent tom costello. >> reporter: eight days until their contract expires, and up to 146,000 auto workers are now widely expected to walk off the job on friday the 15th. negotiations rocky at best. >> given our economic proposals over a month ago, and they've had no response toit. >> reporter: the big automakers face tough demands. the union's demands include a 46% pay hike, a 32-hour work week but paid for 40 hours, and the restoration of traditional pension benefits. uaw workers already make $10 to $20 more per hour than non-union automakers, including toyota and

tesla. the uaw admits it is audacious but says it deserves more after record profits. stellantis says the negotiations are productive. gm is working to restore union's demands. a strike could cut inventory further, sending car prices higher. >> if you're buying a car the next few months, not a bad idea to do it now. >> reporter: smaller supply chain businesses could also be affected by a strike. >> we're going to be on our own now. >> reporter: with 200 employees, twin city die castings makes metal components for cars. >> between 30 days and 60, it is going to be very hard for us to maintain our workforce and continue to pay people. >> reporter: after a summer of high-profile labor disputes and strikes, a uaw mega-strike looms large. tom costello, nbc news. >> joining us now, uaw president

sean fain. thank you for being on the show this morning. i want to get a sense of the pay hike you all are trying to get here. how many workers would this impact, and all of them, 46% pay hike? >> thank you for having us. yeah, it affects everyone in our big three system. you know, that's one of our big issues, what we call ending tiers. right now, as it is, there are several different tiers of workers that perform the same work on the assembly line but make different rates of pay. so we have to end that. yeah, everything we're doing as far as wage increases would affect all our workers. that's the intent behind what we're pushing for. you know, it's inexcusable to me to hear some of the talking heads and the pundits talk about this as if it is some kind of outlandish demand. no one said a word when the ceos gave themselves 40% increases over the last four years. when workers ask for their fair

share, all of a sudden, you know, it's a huge problem. >> so the argument is, you're asking that the workers get the same increase that the top tier of the company has gotten? >> yeah. you know, there's two sets of people in this country now a day, unfortunately. the middle class has been shrinking and disappearing, and it's the billionaire class and then there's everybody else. unfortunately, we have a double standard. the billionaire class and the millionaires keep everything, then the working class people and the poor are left, you know, scraping to get by, paycheck to paycheck, just hoping to have some semblance of a life. >> shawn, good morning. good to have you with us. labor day monday, president biden said he's not worried about a strike until it happens, saying, quote, i don't think it'll happen. is that your accepts of where things are? >> you know, our intent is to get an agreement. this is my fifth set of national negotiations. you know, one thing we've set from the outset is things are not going to be as they always

have been. the companies in past negotiations always have a tendency to drag things out until the very end, then they want to drop a bunch of stuff and scramble. i've told them from day one that we don't intend to do things that way. we're not going to pick one target company. we're bargaining with all three. september 14th is a deadline, not a reference point. we expect all three companies to have an agreement with us by then. if not, there will be action. you know, the way things are going right now, it is looking that way. hopefully, you know, things can change. our intent is to get there and get an agreement. as long as the companies buckle down and get serious, we can get there. if they don't, then there will be action come seven days from now. >> mr. fain, two quick questions. i think i heard you say, and i might be incorrect in my hearing, that if you're working the line, there are three different levels of pay that people could get doing the same job. is that accurate? did you just say that? >> yeah, you can have -- so we have, you know, temporary

workforce, and it is not temporary, we have temporary workers working 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. that's full-time work. but they make in the range of $15 and change to $16 and change per hour. then you have the in progression employees, once they come full-time, it takes eight years to get to full pay. you have workers working from, you know, $18 an hour to mid 20s. then you have the traditional employees that hired in previous to 2007, that make around $32 an hour. they're doing the same work. >> claire mccaskill is with us. president biden called himself the most pro-union president in history. i know the union is looking for a chance for him to show that here. >> well, and i think he will do whatever he can to help the union. my question to you, shawn, is one i really worry about. i've watched car manufacturing drift towards states, away from

states like mine who are pro-union and defeated right to work, to states that embrace non-union workers. the fear of both a.i. and these non-union manufacturers, aren't you -- even though you have a cause here that's worth fighting for, aren't you worried about allowing the non-union manufacturers to further dominate the market and to encourage all these executives to start putting a.i. and robots in the place of all the wonderful workers that stand strong for american car manufacturing? >> we're at a great -- as we say, this round of bargaining, it's our generation's defining moment. we are at a serious inflection point in this country. either we're going to continue this course we've been on the last 40 years, where the rich get richer and everybody else fends for themselves, or we'll get back to establishing a standard for working class people. this is what voters need to take into consideration when they vote for our elected leaders. you know, the concern here is,

you know, the billionaire class continues to drive this race to the bottom. that's exactly what this is. the companies want to tell you about how we have to be competitive. competitive is keyword for, code word for, its race to the bottom. unfortunately, they want to compare us to, you know, a plant and we're better than that. in america, we should want pet petter -- better than that. we used to set the standard and everyone aspired to be like us. we get a good contract and organize like hell. that's the plan. the reason we've had not a lot of success organizing in the south, it's a couple things. you know, obviously, outside influence, and you have politicians down there that are, you know, constantly bashing unions. they're carrying the corporation's water for them. but, you know, anyone that's worked in the union understands the difference it makes in your life. when we bargain good contracts and we show workers the difference in what they can --

how they can provide for themselves, working with a union versus working at the, you know, at the beck and call of the companies and, you know, they cut wages, do whatever they want to do and make life harer, it is a better way of life. we have to bargain good contracts and it'll organize these transplants. >> shawn, as noted, president biden fancies himself the most pro-union president in history. his campaign had a coordinated unveiling of a number of unions endorsing his re-election bid. the uaw backed him in 2020. the uaw is one of the few major unions who has not offered support just yet for president biden. donald trump also said he would like to receive the endorsement of every union. do you plan to endorse president biden again? when will you make that decision? >> so we'll make the decision when the time is right. you know, when our members decide the time is right and our leadership. you know, it's a process we go through. the one thing we've made clear

is our endorsements are going to be earned, not freely given. that's one thing we're doing differently. there's a lot of work left to be done here. you know, i, again, you know, with my experience in bargaining, give the companies an inch, they take a mile. president biden, i do believe, with the ev transition, i do believe his intentions were good when he said he wanted these to be union jobs. but as i said, you give the company an inch, they take a mile. the companies interpret that as, they have no problem with this being union jobs, but they want it to be a race to the bottom. you know, like an example in ohio, all team, the company started at $16.50 an hour, seven years to get to $20 an hour. we say in the ev transition, it needs to be a just transition. a just transition is we want these jobs to be at our standards, not at service sector standards where people are going to scape to get by and can't provide for their family. we have a lot of work to do

there. you know, the other person you talked about, the other candidate, let's just -- i'll be real about that person. i'll never forget in the '16 race when he spoke about workers in michigan, union jobs in the midwest, and said that we need to do a rotation in this country. we need to move those jobs to other places that pay less money, then those people will be begging for their jobs back for anything. that's not a person i want as my president. you know, recently, he made the comment about, you know, telling people to stop paying their dues. that's not someone that represents working class people. he's part of the billionaire class. we need to not forget that. that's what our members need to think about when they go to vote. >> united auto workers president shawn fain making it clear who he is not endorsing this morning. thank you very much for joining us with an update on these negotiations hopefully. >> thank you. coming up, what does the

iconic tv show "gun show" have to do with rulings from the supreme court? our next guest, best selling author malcolm gladwell, will explain his theory, next on "morning joe." let's go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the subway series menu. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. for freeee. that's what i'm talking about. order in the subway app today. i was told my small business wouldn't qualify for an erc tax refund.

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marshall, you can't shoot an unarmed man. >> that's not going to save you. you put that gun back on, you come out in the street. i'm going to give you just one minute, then i'm coming back in after ya. armed or unarmed, i'm going to kill ya. [ gunshot ]

>> that was a scene from "gunsmoke," the longest running television series of the 20th century. according to our next guest, such iconic westerns may have influenced the supreme court's rulings on gun laws. best selling author, malcolm gladwell explains that theory in the latest episode of his "revisionist history" podcast, of which the new six-part series explores common misconceptions americans have about guns. malcolm gladwell joins us now right here on set. it's great to have you. >> morning. >> tell us about the series and about the connection here. >> well, so i got -- i immersed myself in the world of guns. we have six episodes. some are super serious. this one is a little lighter. i was trying to explain, there is an exchange during oral arguments in the big landmark gun case, bruin versus new york

state, and one of the justices, alito, suggests he thinks new yorkers would be safer if we all carried weapons on the subway. if you've ridden the subway, you know how ludicrous this is. i thought, where on earth -- and kavanaugh joins us, thinking the same thing. the question is, where on earth would you get such a lunatic notion, that we'd all be better off on the subway with the lugars? i whimsically suggest it comes from watching "gunsmoke" as kids. if you go back and watch it, "gunsmoke" is this sort of craziest depiction of the so-called wild west. it suggests that dart city was this lawless place where people were just shooting each other all the time. the only way you could survive is if you were packing a revolver. in fact, it was a town that practiced incredibly strict gun control. after an initial spade of

violence early in its history, had an incredibly peacefully run, until it ceased to be an important cattle town. so "gunsmoke" gets the american west all wrong, and people who watch it as a result get the american west all wrong. if you fast forward 40 years, i suggest, if sam alito was little sammy as a kid was watching too much "gunsmoke," it leads him in the oral arguments in the bruin case to suggest new yorkers would be safer if they all had their own. >> malcolm, that's not exactly a fringe argument. we hear it from a lot of gun rights advocates about school shootings. >> yeah. >> which is, the answer to this is to give the teacher a gun, so when the person walks in with an ar-15, she can stop her lesson in kindergarten, reach in, get her glock out and stop the shooting. this is a real thing that is argued. by the way, in the highest reaches of the senate and everywhere else. >> it is crazy because people who know guns, and i spend in the series a lot of time talking to people who take guns serious.

one of the things they always impress upon me, which is obvious if you know guns, is it is very, very difficult to fire a gun accurately. you know, guns are meant to be used by people who know how to use guns. the answer, if you want to see carnage, give a bunch of, a glock, and i asked them, if you've ever ridden the subway or been -- if a school shooter came in, and every teacher had a handgun, it would just be -- it would be even worse chaos. >> well, we're dealing with an epidemic of gun violence in this country right now for sure. so this is so timely. joe's with us, and he's got the next question. joe? >> the thing is the epidemic obviously has gotten worse over the past 10, 15 years. you just look at the numbers and mass shootings have just escalated. i want to dig in a little deeper though about the america that so many of us grew up in, and that

was america where "gunsmoke" wasn't just one season flash of the pan. we all grew up watching john wayne, "true grit," you name it. and that was -- that was popular culture. we all grew up as little kids running, you know, you look at '50s and '60s movies. little kids are running around in the yard and they all have toy guns. it was almost an extension of our arms, and we were immersed in that in popular culture. that's obviously changed a bit, but again, it has framed how especially older americans have looked at guns, right? a good -- what is it? a good person with a gun stops a bad person with a gun every time. that's the john wayne ethos, isn't it? >> it absolutely is, and it's fundamentally ahistorical.

the way the wild west worked was if you were a cattle guy and you rode into dodge city in 1870 or whatever it was, you were required to check your revolver basically at the sheriff's office, and you went and, you know, did your drinking and your corralling, and then you picked up your gun. that's the level of gun control that would be unheard of in american cities today. that's how they tamed the wild west. they brought in professional police officers and they enforced a level of uncontrol we haven't seen since. so we have this notion that somehow the wild west was a place that, you know, where you were required to defend yourself. nothing could be further from the truth. it was a place where they took away your gun before you could do -- before you could enter the town. >> but the fact that the old westerns, lone ranger, the fact

it's not historically accurate isn't the issue. what is it trying to call forward in the consciousness of the american people? you also have an episode. episode five i think about the flick note. what's going on in montgomery, alabama that struck your attention that you want to talk about? >> i read this article from years ago in an obscure criminology journal, and at the end, there was this little footnote, and i -- the author of the article writes a personal note. i don't want to give it away, but the minute i read that little footnote, first of all, i was moved and i sent a little -- i made a picture on my phone and sent it to all my friends and everyone just said, oh, my god. so i went to the town. i sat down and had him tell me the story of the footnote and he did an academic study about the

consequences of the fact that black and white people in alabama have very different access to health care meaning that if you get shot and you're black in alabama in that era, you were far more likely to die of your wounds than if you were white because the hospital is farther away, et cetera, et cetera. then he had something that happened to him in his life that precisely proved the point he was making in the article, and the story of that episode is the story of what happened in his life that made him -- that sort of brought the message of his research home, and it was -- i went and sat in this old plantation house, you know, just north of montgomery, and this man in his 80s told me this story that would just break your heart. >> wow. >> you know, back to guns, malcolm, and back to schoolteachers carrying guns, the thing about guns in america is if someone comes into your home with a gun, if someone comes onto the subway train with a gun, that's who they are.

if you are carrying a gun that you just recently purchased because of fear or whatever, you're going to lose that fight because you'll hesitate to shoot. >> mm-hmm. >> the person with the gun who does it for a living won't hesitate. that's the thing a lot of people seem to misconstrue. >> yeah, yeah. i interviewed a bunch of new york city police officers about this question of whether they thought it was advisable for civilians to carry guns on the subway and they were pretty universal in their dismay at the notion. one of them said to me, i fire guns, you know, i'm someone who's trained to carry a gun and i know from observing myself and my fellow officers how hard it is to fire a gun under pressure. the last thing i want is anybody and, like, the whole subway car full of people shooting. it's funny because i was listening -- i got really into the oral arguments, the supreme court oral arguments which you can listen to, right? if you listen to the oral arguments in the landmark gun

case, and listen to the conservative chest, the kind of vision they have of america, it's just, like, it's so nuts that you just think, how on earth did these people get on the supreme court? i mean, it's just, like -- >> i know. >> i mean, i'm normally quite, you know, accepting of a wide variety of opinions, but i was, like, these guys are out of their minds. >> joe, jump in. >> i also want to talk about historical perspective, and, you know, how we talk about abortion, you know, how southern baptists were pro-choice not only through the beatles breakup, but through the eagles breakup. it was until they had to figure out how to beat a southern baptist democrat they changed their position. you can look at guns and say the same thing. in 1967, 1968 when the black panthers were using the second amendment to arm in california and california had pretty per missive gun laws, suddenly

ronald reagan and the nra supported a tough, you know, a tough law restricting the right to keep and bear arms in california, and ronald reagan said that he saw no reason why the streets today, a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons and that guns were, quote, a ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved by people of good will. >> yeah. no, i think you're right. this is why in history we chose to do this big series on guns because something weird -- we've taken this weird turn on the subject and i think one of the reasons is mass shootings have sort of so obsessed both sides, and one of the points i make in the series is that as the percentage of shootings, they're tiny. i mean, the gun problem in this country is an urban shooting phenomenon with people using stolen weapons and mass

shootings get the press attention, but they're this much of the overall problem. >> the latest episode of malcolm's "revisionist history" podcast is now available. malcolm gladwell, thank you for coming on and sharing it with us. we appreciate it. coming up on "morning joe," we're getting a look at surveillance video showing the moment the murderer who escaped a pennsylvania prison freed himself. how did the guards miss this, and what police are now saying about the ongoing search. that's ahead on "morning joe." we're back in two minutes. n "mo" we're back in two minutes. yoe so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

every day, businesses everywhere are asking: only pay for what you need. is it possible? with comcast business... it is. is it possible to use predictive monitoring to address operations issues? we can help with that. can we provide health care virtually anywhere? we can help with that, too. is it possible to survey foot traffic across all of our locations? yeah! absolutely. with the advanced connectivity and intelligence of global secure networking from comcast business. it's not just possible. it's happening. the truth is the republican party did not begin on a golden escalator in 2015. long before that day, it was forged and defended and defined. it was the conservative party in america, and so it should ever be.

>> mike pence gives some of his sharpest criticism yet of his former running mate, calling the future of the republican party a battle between conservatism and pop populism. we'll have more on his comments just ahead, plus, what donald trump had to say about taking the witness stand in his own defense in the classified documents case. and we'll have an update on hunter biden's legal troubles as the special counsel appointed to his case is now seeking an indictment for the president's son. also ahead, we're learning more about how a prisoner who is still on the run this morning was able to escape from a county prison in pennsylvania. okay. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, september 7th along with joe, willie, and me. we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemere, yep, right here, and professor at

princeton university, eddie glod jr., john heilman, washington bureau chief, susan page, and former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. a lot to get to this morning, joe. >> yeah, a lot to get to, but let's start really quickly with what mike pence had to say, willie. you know, he was talking about the need for conservatism. i was reading the dispatch talking about how conservatism has always been sort of the bull work to protect america and other countries from radicalism, and jonah brought up a great point that the fact that now you have so-called conservatives adopting this stand in the world view of radicals and engaging and embracing in radicalism,

there's no protection against that radicalism because it's the conservatives who were supposed to be the counterbalance, and as mike pence said last night, you know, this is a tragedy for america, but also it's a tragedy for conservatism because again, conservatism is supposed to be the rock. it's supposed to be the steadying force in the debate. it's just -- it's just not anymore. that's -- it's become the radical corner. >> yeah, and there's a distinction that you have made many times over the last few years between trumpism and conservatism, and they've kind of been conflated and lumped together. conservatives like donald trump. there's nothing conservative when you talk about policy, and the debt he racked up on that side, but also to lead the overturning of the federal government, for example. to put into question our system and our peaceful transition of power, and mike pence is making plain an argument that would have been so obvious just a few

years ago, but it has to be said out loud. the problem is and the question is, is it a tree falling in the conservative forest? is everybody on board with donald trump? is he going to continue to poll mike pence at 3%, 4%, 5%? it remains to be seen, joe, i guess, if there is a place for an actual, a real conservative as you would define it, i think in this republican party. >> it's not just narrowly defined by american conservatism. we're just talking about conservatism in general, and again, you're talking about a force starting with edmond burk that was reaction to the french revolution there. eddie, conservatism was abacus tom. it was about consistency. it was about, well, as russell circumstance said in "the conservative mind" in the seventh and last edition, he said, conservatives look at the world and then they decide, do

we need to be the party of progress or do we need to be the party of perseverance where we're pushing back against radical change? whether that radical change might have been, you know, a radical thought or whether now it's the tech revolution that's completely turned our lives and our children's lives upside down, but a conservativeis supposed to look at the world, russell said, and ask the question, do we need to be the party of preserving or the party of progress? what does this moment -- what does this reality call for? and instead of protecting custom and constitution, you now have republicans pushing a guy who said, if the constitution gets in the way of me serving another

four years, we'll just terminate the constitution. well, that's about as radical as you get, isn't it? >> oh, absolutely, joe. i think the story of republicanism that -- or conservatism that we can trace back to edmond burk is a complex one, but i would also want to think that the way in which we think about its emergence is development in the united states. i'm thinking about pat buchanan, newt gingrich, how they in some ways set the stage for trumpism, and how we tell that story. there's an element of american conservatism in its history that actually gives rise to trumpism. even though it's a caricature of sorts. >> right. >> so i think you're absolutely right, joe, but we have to then locate it in our specific history and our particular time and tell a thick story about how this came to be. >> well, you're right, and eddie, you're so right. it is a complex story, but it is a -- we always talk about two things being true at the same

time. sometimes protecting custom protects institutions that are evil. sometimes it holds up institutions that are positive, that are good, that are life-affirming, that grow the society. let's listen to mike pence continue to talk on the topic. >> the populist movement is rising in the republican party. the growing faction would substitute our faith in limited government and traditional values with an agenda stitched together by little else in personal grievances and performative outrage. the leading candidate for republican nomination last year called for the, quote, termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the constitution, closed quote. while his imitators in this primary have demonstrated a willingness to impose their

power of will on opponents. >> he's talking about donald trump. he said, let's terminate the constitution, but you just talked about the height of irony. republicans that i grew up with, conservative that is i grew up with said, oh. liberals are concerned about their feelings. they create their own realities. that's where we are now. what i found so interesting is when mika and i were up in maine in 2020, you actually saw boats with flags that said, i won't say exactly what it said, but it said, ef your feelings. trump 2020, like, they were the tough guys. >> mm-hmm. >> forget your feelings. it doesn't matter what you think. trump's going to win, 2020. so trump loses, and what do we hear? you know what? his feelings, just give him some time to get used to this new reality.

he's not really ready to accept the fact that he lost. let's just be patient, and an incredible thing happened. the so-called conservatives were suddenly the people who wanted us to believe their reality, who wanted us to believe their feelings. their feelings and jonah goldberg goes into this. their feelings had become their reality, and suddenly, again, custom constitution. american institutions that have sustained this, whether you're talking about the justice department or the united states military or america's colleges and universities, the greatest in the world by far. suddenly they all come under attack. anything that doesn't support the continued power grab by trump and trumpists is suspect

and comes under attack. that's not conservatism. that's radicalism, and it's why we are fighting to preserve american democracy right now. >> you know, yes. all of that's true, and of course, it's been a long time since the republican party was a conservative party, probably in the burkian sense. temperamentally conservative, and they were the definition of the kind of conservatism that you were attracted to when you first joined the movement and the party. of course, it's what jonah talked about and you're talking about, it's not just radical. it's cultism. it's a cult personality when it comes to donald trump. you see it now. it has escaped, you know, trump is a very big figure in the party and obviously the dominant figure in the party, but it's long beyond donald trump now. you look at the state of wisconsin. we've talked on this program a lot since april when this liberal justice whose last name i can barely announce got

elected and surprised everyone in the supreme court to wisconsin. republicans in wisconsin are now trying to invalidate that woman's election. she hasn't even heard a case yet and they're just trying to three it out. they're trying to get her impeached basically five months -- four months after she got elected because she threatens the power of republicans over the wisconsin legislature. no respect whatsoever for the will of the people. no respect for a justly held vote for the basis on which this woman got elected to the supreme court? what's mike pence going to say? of course, we respect the will of the people, or what republicans want to hear? throw her out because wisconsin is an important swing state in this election. we're not going to take a stand for constitutional principles or conserv conservatism. we'll be for that. nothing conservative about throwing away a 50-year precedent set in stone. the problem is that as important

as it is to talk about trump and the cult personality that arise on the presidential level is in every nook and cranny across the party at every level, you have lost a sense in the republican party of what the roots of conservatism were that held the party together throughout the modern era until this century i would say. >> yeah. well, again, a complete disconnect from reality, again. conservatives constitutionally and temperamentally, conservatives are supposed to if you look at burk or russell kirk, you're supposed to look at reality as it is. reality as it is, and adapt to that. and of course, so far -- the party's so far from that, but this is beyond -- let me just say this is beyond radicalism. jonah's right. it is radicalism, willie, but we can say without being hyperbolic in the least that this is

anti-democratic through and through. you heard what john heilman just said about what they're doing in wisconsin trying to impeach a judge that won a landslide election just because. in tennessee, kicking out two black members of the legislature that were elected because they protested. in ohio at the last second, changing the rules of a state referendum because they knew they were going to lose. of course, they failed at changing those rules, that people were still able to do something in washington, d.c. why is trump going there next march? to put in place fraudulent electors, and what would that do? that would take away the votes of millions and millions of people who already had actual constitutional electors in washington, d.c. to have their votes counted.

and of course, we can go to georgia, you know, donald trump saying basically to the secretary of state, steal the election. throw out 11,000 votes. find one more than i need to win. again, this is not just conservatism versus radicalism. this is democracy versus anti-democracy. i don't think we have had as clear a cut difference between the parties, certainly not in my lifetime, and i would suggest we'd probably have to go back to the civil war to find two parties so at odds as these two parties right now because one literally wants to end the democratic experiment if you look at the person who's running who has said again as mike pence said, his vice president, he wants to terminate the constitution if the constitution stands in the way of him being the president of the united states. >> and the argument they're

making or implicitly i guess is that democracy has not yielded the results we wanted. trump didn't win. we didn't get what we wanted on abortion in certain places in these referendums so we're going to burn the thing down. get rid of democracy so we can change the system and get the outcomes we want. i would add to that list the effort at the state level in georgia to impeach effectively fani willis, the fulton county d.a. notably it was the republican governor brian kemp that stepped in quickly and said, yeah. that's not happening, but john, if you look at the field of republican presidential candidates right now, donald trump is head and shoulders above everyone, but the closest opponents are cheap imitations of donald trump. so in other words the people who are finding any traction at all nationally, vivek ramaswamy, ron desantis to a lesser degree are doing an impersonation of donald trump. you had ron desantis yesterday saying, i would consider pardons and commutations for the january

6th people. >> he said it wasn't just about trump. it was those trying to be trump, who were echoes of trump that saying they will power the same way trump has done, and we are seeing on a state level, i'll add tennessee, the tennessee three, the effort to throw them out, and republicans trying to overturn the will of the people in order to get what they want, and we're seeing that play out in this gop primary stage where trump is 40 to 50 points up on everyone else, and the other candidates as you say who have had even moments of success are those who are doing trump impersonations and mike pence -- mike pence is right. history will regard mike pence as right. in this moment, it doesn't matter. mike pence is losing and losing badly and the argument he's making again, will be very validated by history let us all hope, but right now that is a losing argument in the republican party. >> you know, mika, since 1992,

the republican party has won the popular vote in one presidential election. since 1992, the republican party has lost the popular vote in 7 of the 8 presidential elections. since then, their dramatic demographic changes that are happening. we have known for over a generation that there would come a time when this would cease to be a majority, white country, and there is no doubt that much of this is a republican party that is saying, we're just going to lose elections from now on. so let's just say the hell with elections. let's just say the hell with

democracy because we're going to keep losing. again, they've lost a popular vote 7 out of 8 times since 1992. so i guess they're just thinking instead of us changing, instead of us figuring out how to update an 1849 abortion ban in wisconsin, let's just say to hell to the voters and impeach the judge that won a landslide election there. they've got it backwards. they're going to lose, but make no mistake. this is about power and nothing but power. they are losing it. they know they're losing it and they're willing to throw the american experiment down the drain to save their power. >> yeah. they've caused a lot of damage in the way which makes one of our top stories this morning about the one woman who has

taken on donald trump for years now and keeps on winning even more impressive. a judge has ruled donald trump defamed writer e. jean carroll when he was president in 2019. carroll filed the lawsuit in response to the comments the former president made shortly after she came forward with her allegation that he raped her in a new york city department store. this case is separate from the lawsuit carroll won back in may when a jury found trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation. that defamation award stems from statements trump made on truth social last year calling carroll a, quote, con job. a federal judge has now decided those comments and the ones mentioned in the second lawsuit are, quote, substantially the same. so there's no need to argue that in court again. as a result, the case will only

focus on how much money in damages trump should pay carroll. the trial is set to begin in january. trump has already been ordered to pay carroll $5 million for the first lawsuit, but he is appealing the verdict. joyce, what does this tell you? this is 1 of -- i don't know. 5 or 6 cases against the president? but e. jean carroll, man. she's not stopping any time soon. >> no. she's been tenacious in pursuing this case, and of course, it's different from the criminal prosecutions. no one goes to prison at the end of this case. trump has been ordered to pay $5 million in the first lawsuit. that was actually the second lawsuit carroll filed. it was an comments he made after he left the presidency. this case in january when it goes to trial, carroll's lawyers have a very different opportunity when it comes to arguing for damages.

they're entitled to ask that the damages punish trump, but also they be large enough to prevent him from continuing mika, i know that you'll recall that the day after this first jury verdict against trump, he went back out on national television and repeated the defamation of carroll. so her lawyers can ask for a significantly larger amount than $5 million. that's not something that the former president looks forward to. in fact, we know in many ways, these sorts of monetary losses are personally very damaging to him and his pride. so yet another venue of attack against trump coming early next year. >> so susan page, e. jean carroll and her attorney robbie caplan have been tenacious, and there's this idea that donald trump gets away with everything and always has, always will. they say, that's not true, and donald trump who thinks he operates with impunity, they're

saying, if you want to keep doing this, we can keep doing this. we'll take another $5 million if you want to keep defaming us publicly. let's do it again. >> a big defeat for donald trump on this. no question about it, according to the judge about whether he defamed her. that's determined. the other remarkable thing is that in the legal challenges that donald trump has, the fact that he is likely to be ordered to pay millions and millions of dollars more to her is not his biggest problem. in some ways when you look at the cases that are going to be coming up in the next year or two, this is the smallest problem he has. so that is a sign of what remarkable terrain we are in here, and here's the other question. if the damages are intended to prevent donald trump from continuing to defame her and perhaps others, is there much of a possibility that it will work? i'll leave that to you. >> all right. well, we have so much more to cover this morning, especially with joyce. news out of fulton county still

ahead on "morning joe." why nancy pelosi might run again? we have new reporting on the political future of the former house speaker. that's ahead on "morning joe." "

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so if you have to go to trial, will you testify in your own defense? >> oh, yes, absolutely. >> you will take the stand? >> that i would do. that i look forward to. >> now i think that obstruction charge is going to get to trial, mr. president. >> at trial, i'll testify. >> okay. if you do, and they ask you on the stand, did you order anyone to move boxes, how will you answer? >> i'm not answering that question for you, but i'm totally covered under the law. >> okay. >> if you read the presidential records act, just read it. you take a look at it. i'm totally covered under the

law. it's a civil act. it's civil. now biden had no civil act. the things he did are criminal, but he doesn't have a deranged person on his case. >> seriously, give me a break. donald trump lying. >> how could you sit there and listen to that? god. it's so boring. >> he will never testify. he'll say in two weeks, i am going to testify. in two weeks. >> i'm totally covered. >> i'm going to put out my full georgia report in two weeks. i'm going to build a rocket ship at mar-a-lago and fly you to the moon. lies, all lies. first of all, joyce, let's just say it right here. let's just say it right here. i keep hearing people, like, banging trash cans. >> sorry. it was me. >> he's kicking stuff. >> are astros and "30 rock," does that mean i'm supposed to throw a fastball or an offspeed

pitch? >> i kicked the thing. >> he's got a twitchy leg. >> he's got restless leg syndrome. >> okay. it sounds like every astros game a couple of years ago. did he take those trash cans on the road? i'm just curious how they did that as much as they did. >> no. back to joyce. >> we all know, first of all, donald trump lying. it's not covered by anything, like, obstructing justice is not covered by anything, but secondly, explain why no lawyer will ever let donald trump testify under oath, and why donald trump will never let his lawyer have him testify under oath. >> donald trump is not capable of taking the witness stand and telling the truth. he's not capable of following any instructions he's given about what he can and can't testify to. >> yes. ding. ding.

>> it's a great example of that because trump would for instance, very likely be prohibited from talking about he claims is the civil presidential records act that protects him at trial. prosecutors would file a motion to exclude that because it's not true, and it's not relevant, but trump would likely be bombastic on the witness stand saying things that would get him into deeper trouble. it would essentially be malpractice for a lawyer to let him testify under oath. >> okay. hey, joyce, can you tell me about georgia yesterday, exactly what happened with chesebro and sidney powell being denied their requests? >> yep. this is a preview of how confusing a trial with 19 defendants can get, joe, but the most important takeaways from yesterday are this young judge who some people had been skeptical of, is very firmly in command of his courtroom. he made a quick decision from

the bench, argued as he had to that the two defendants who asked for speedy trials will get them. those two will go to trial in october, but sidney powell and kenneth chesebro will be tried together. they will not get the separate trials they asked for. the fate of the remaining 17 defendants isn't entirely clear, but it sounded like the judge was considering very seriously trying them together in one group, and that's in large part because of this forceful argument that prosecutors make that no matter how many separate trials are held in the georgia matter, in each one, prosecutors have to prove not just the limited number of overt acts that an individual defendant was involved in, but the entire rico conspiracy that they charged. prosecutors say that will take some four months. it will involve 150 witnesses, and so they took it straight to the judge and they just said that the issue, your honor, is how many times do you want to have to retry this same case?

it sounds to me like the judge will do it in two or at most, three tranches. >> so joyce, let's talk about what the judge said about the actual process of the trial. judge mcafee expressing some skepticism as you and others have that all these could be tried together and in a speedy way. the judge says, quote, it seems unrealistic to be able to handle all 19 in 40-something days. that's my initial reaction, and a trial for all 19 defendants would include 150 witnesses and last about four months. he's going to come to a decision he says sometime next week. how do you see this playing out from here, joyce? >> so there are a lot of moving parts here, but his assessment is a very pragmatic one. he was simply saying that in the period of time between today or yesterday and late october when the first two defendants are scheduled to go to trial, he couldn't put all of the

defendants into that courtroom so quickly and even decide all of the pretrial motions that they would file. there would likely be a flurry of motions to sever, and just as a practical matter, that can't happen. in fact, it's a little bit surprising that fani willis continues to insist that all 19 be tried this quickly because if there were convictions, they would be very vulnerable on appeal to claims that the defendants didn't get the due process that they were entitled to, that they were forced to rush to trial very quickly. so that i think is the important part of what goes on here. the judge is making good decisions early on, designed to protect the ultimate results of any trial here. >> so susan page, let's talk about the politics of georgia which is going to be perhaps the closest state on the map next november. you know, if joyce's analysis is

correct, we will be deprived -- voters will be deprived of seeing him sit in a courtroom day after day during this trial, but yes, it'll shatter the race there because the republican establishment, including the government has stood up against him. how do you see that playing out there in the peach state? >> who would have thought georgia might be the key state? if we're down to maybe four crucial swing states, georgia is going to be one of them next year and it's interesting because if the republican party, the traditional republican party has been on the run most places in this country, georgia has been different because of the governor and the other officials who stood up to the pressure from donald trump to change the results of the election. i agree with you though. i would love to see court hearings on television. i think they're so interesting. they're so informative. they're so educational. it's like c-span for the judicial system. i'm all for it, and joyce who knows more about the law than i do of course, who says trump

will not testify. let me vote in favor of trump testifying because that's something i would really love to see. >> there is that. >> that would be a blast. former u.s. attorney joyce vance, thank you so much. >> thank you, joyce. >> if you want to hear more about this, joyce and her sisters-in-law, best podcast in the business. they talk about the georgia case. >> so good. >> make sure to download "sisters-in-law." thank you for being with us, joyce. coming up, the system is together on funding, but the house is not. squeeze on all sides. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." sides that's straight ahead on "morning joe." right now get a free footlong at subway. like the subway series menu.

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what do you make of the criticism that the president is getting that he's too old to have a second term? >> i think the president should embrace his age, his experience, what he -- the knowledge that he brings to the job. actually, the leader on the other side is not much younger, where, you know -- i don't like to use his name, but you know who i mean. he's not that much younger. so i don't think -- age is a relative thing. it is -- and i think this president -- our country is very well served by his leadership. again, his experience, his knowledge, and it counts for a lot. >> that of course, is speaker amerita nancy pelosi. "politico" says maybe she could take her own advice.

jonathan lemere looks into why she might run again. johnathan martin joins us now. let's read from your piece out in "politico" magazine. you write this. nancy pelosi is a towering figure, the most consequential speaker to hold the gavel of the house, and the most powerful elected woman. at a time when her octogenarian counterparts, the 83-year-old, older than both joe biden and senator mitch mcconnell seemingly defies the march of time. the question is if she will do the same with her house seat when the clout is diminished. her party is led by northeasterners, and both chambers of congress is facing acute, if not as dire as portrayed challenges in the aftermath of the pandemic. you spent a bunch of time with the former speaker of the house.

>> yeah. >> did you come away thinking she's going to hang in for a couple more terms? >> i don't know about a couple more terms, willie, but i think she's really struggling with whether or not to hang it up, in part, because of the challenges that san francisco is facing right now, and there's few people frankly in the history of the u.s. congress who are better positioned to work the levers of federal, state, local government to help a district than she is. willie, there's also the issue of senator feinstein, and this was probably the tensest part of our conversation. i spent most of a 12-hour day riding around with the former speaker throughout san francisco, and it got pretty tense talking about senator feinstein, and obviously her condition which is pretty serious, and pelosi, willie, has been much more personally involved than is publicly known in making the case that feinstein should be able to decide on her own what to do,

and obviously feinstein wants to stay in office, but this is a factor because san francisco will be looking at the prospect of really in about five, six years' time, losing dianne feinstein and speaker nancy pelosi. that's a lot of clout for one city in a really time of need to lose in its federal delegation, and then lastly this is personal for her, willie because obviously her husband did suffer an attack. i saw him out there. he looks a lot better now, but she has lived her city's disorder in a very personal way. it showed up on her doorstep quite literally. so there's that factor too, and the last thing i'll mention, her daughter who is widely seen as a potential heir to that seat, that's also a factor as well. there's a lot going on for her personally and professionally with this choice. >> jonathan, i understand the political -- the political reality that you just described,

the practical implications of what's happening with san francisco, but what about the generational tension we're seeing in the democratic party right now? what does it mean for the former speaker to be thinking about this in this moment where we see and hear young people clamoring for a younger generation of leaders in the democratic party, and for the nation broadly? >> well, look. there's no question about it that there is a long line of people in that city who are eager to stake their claim to her seat. she has had the seat since 1987, and yet there's sort of people who are eager to make a move and the broader challenge for people like pelosi and biden is that for all of their service, a lot of americans especially those under 30, they just want to see somebody who is closer to their own age, who understands their perspective more. the country on the world, and

that is obviously something a pelosi has to deal with. she recognizes this. she comes from a city that is known for its cultural churn, for its challenging of the status quo, and so i think she recognizes that, but look. for a lot of these members as joe knows, it's darn hard to walk away. >> susan page, congratulations on getting an actual answer to the question about whether she wants to be ambassador to italy. i have been speculated about that for years. maybe i'll stop because you got a flat denial from paul pelosi, and i assume that is the last word on that. i wonder though, her sensitivity about dianne feinstein's future when she's obviously in such health decline. is there another reason she wants to make sure she stays in office until the end of her term? is she trying to engineer who might be in a position to replace her? >> susan, that's a very good question, and i should say, a

plug here, a very nice book about speaker pelosi that chronicles her rise. yes. part of pelosi's motivation here when it comes to feinstein is, yes. i mean, the appearance of pushing a prominent woman out of the senate, but it also owes to the succession issues in the senate, namely the fact that she wants adam schiff to succeed feinstein, and pelosi knows that if feinstein has to resign, then gavin newsom would appoint a black woman, and that would change schiff's ascent to the senate. there is a dominos falling there as well. >> you know, jonathan, i just -- i always am so appreciative whenever you're around 30a or you see any articles on 30a in

northwest florida. you always send the articles to me or the pictures to me because that -- that is literally my neck of the woods, and i, you know, i grew up there and would go down there in the late '70s and early '80s before it grew up, and the most beautiful area in the world. i heard -- and you ought to look for this instagram reel. somebody took pictures, a drone over 30a, over those beautiful line of trees and jimmy buffett singing a pirate turns 40, and i'm telling you the guy is already the patron saint of 30a, and the stretch all along of the gulf coast. >> the white beaches. >> yeah. just incredible. >> it's a gorgeous place. >> yeah. all right. thank you so much for being vus, jonathan. >> thanks, joe. appreciate it. >> we appreciate it. the new piece is online for "politico."

senate majority leader mitch mcconnell says he has no plans to retire early following two apparent medical episodes. taking questions from reporters yesterday, the 81-year-old republican vowed to finish out his term. >> you have had all these evaluations. what have doctors said is the precise medical reason for those two freeze-ups? >> what dr. monahan's report addressed was concerns people might have in some things that happened to me -- they didn't, and really, i have nothing to add to that. i think he pretty well covered the subject. >> what do you say to those who are calling on you to step down? do you have any plans to retire any time soon? >> i have no announcements to make on that subject. >> what do you say to those who are -- >> i'm going to finish my term as leader and i'm going to finish my senate term. >> so john, we should note, the

only republicans publicly suggesting that mcconnell may not be fit for office are those who don't like him very much including senator rand paul, fellow kentuckian josh hawley. most to cameras are saying we think mcconnell can do the job. behind the scenes, there are questions and doubts raised and we have seen these two very high-profile freeze-ups here. what does this mean for the republican party? they're not sure this is going to go away, and there are going to be questions about whether mcconnell can keep his caucus in check on things like ukraine and being a bull work to maga, and shutting down impeachment and beyond. >> the keyword there is publicly when you talk about what republican senators are saying publicly versus privately. it was the same with dianne feinstein. no one wants to get cross with mitch mcconnell. people have learned at their peril what happens if you do that. it's still, even in his, i would say, frayed condition right now,

not at full power, but still someone who exercises enormous power of the chamber and people learned what happens if you get on the wrong side of him. this question going forward is the talk on the senate side. it's the talk in the republican cloak room, and it is the case with mcconnell as over whether there's going to be funding for ukraine, whether that could lead to a government shutdown. central to republican prospects in a lot of ways, because of that, their political prospects in 2024, so mcconnell is not just important to the party but important across the board politically. coming up, the coming wave. our next guest calls artificial intelligence the greatest dilemma. we'll talk about the biggest threats when "morning joe" comes right back. ats when "morning jos right back

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just about the top of the hour. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east. we've been up for a few hours

now. the senate returns to capitol hill this week while the house lawmakers are back in d.c. on tuesday, leaving not a lot of time to hash out a federal budget. we're going to get the latest reporting on where the funding fight stands. and we will speak with senator elizabeth warren about that, the threat of a government shutdown, as well as the ongoing blockade of military promotions by republican senator tommy tuberville. also ahead, an update on the search for a prison the run in pennsylvania as new video shows just how he escaped last week. jonathan lemire, mike barnicle back with us. willie, you can do that. i've seen you do that. >> not much of a parkour guy. we start with the senate back in session this week, the house returning next tuesday with the first order of business

to try to avert a government shutdown. time is running short. the house is scheduled to meet for just 11 days before the government's fiscal year ends on september 30th. let's bring in sahil kapur. his latest reporting says senate unity puts house republicans in a jam over government funding fight. tell us about both sides, the unity on the senate side and what's going on in the house. >> reporter: we have a rare situation where the senate is passing appropriations bills overwhelmingly through committee, some unanimously. they're going to start to get vets on the floor next week. this is that stark contrast with the approach in the republican-controlled house where speaker mccarthy is using a slim majority to try to advance conservative priorities like cutting spending and attaching other conservative riders to the bills. even republicans say mccarthy's

approach is going nowhere in the senate. mitch mcconnell made that clear that the senate is not going to replicate the house's approach. john thune said that if mccarthy continues to struggle, they should take the senate bills and pass them as is. some other democrats feel that way as well. senator john tester said the best thing they could do is talk all the work the senate does and just pass it because we do better work. we shouldn't be playing games like shutting down the government. how does speaker mccarthy feel about this? the house is coming into session next week. the first order of business is getting his members on a short-term government funding bill, because the september 30th deadline is simply not realistic to meet for a larger

appropriations deal. a spokesperson for mccarthy said the speaker will not support any kind of play to jam against the holidays that would allow senate democrats to gain leverage. mccarthy has made clear any short-term cr has made necessary as a way to continue working through the regular order. the problem with that is he's got this band of hard-line conservatives on his right who are rebelling against even the idea of a short-term government funding bill. one member of the house freedom caucus said mccarthy's job could be at stake in this fight. let's play what ken buck said. >> he's only going to pass something with democrat votes. that's going to put him at risk for the motion to vacate. i don't see the speaker getting enough republican votes for a

continuing resolution in the next few weeks to be able to pass that continuing resolution. >> reporter: a motion to vacate is a vote to overthrow the speaker of the house. mccarthy can lose no more than four votes before a bill collapses or his speakership collapses as well. it's a big challenge ahead in the coming weeks for speaker mccarthy on the issue of government funding. >> thank you. mika, this is another case where those hard-line republicans say, we gave you this job, speaker mccarthy, we can take it away from you if you don't do what we say. >> joining us is democratic senator elizabeth warren of massachusetts, a member of the senate banking, finance and armed services committees. we have a lot to talk with you about this morning.

are you concerned about a shutdown? where is this headed? >> of course i'm concerned about a shutdown. the senate is doing its job. we're passing these pieces. remember back when the whole debt crisis came and everyone settled on a number, passed it into law? that would be the budget. the senate has done its business and honored the deal. over in the house, we have a group of extremist republicans who aren't just saying let's delay, let's add some pieces, but who have actually said they want to shut down the government. the reason is they think that if they can impose a lot of pain on the economy, a lot of pain on the american people, that will help donald trump and other extremist republicans get reelected. >> senator warren, talk about

what kind of pressure you can bring to bear on this radical contingent in the house in order to pass these bills or to help pass these bills. will there be any consequence for this? >> you ask exactly the right question. part of the pressure, i think, is the fact that the senate is actually doing its job. we've worked against the budget numbers that were put into law. we're doing our part and we're doing it on a bipartisan basis. nobody's getting everything they wanted, but everybody's getting some of what they wanted. the house right now, the question kevin mccarthy faces is, is he going to let a handful of truly radical extremist republicans who want to hurt the american people because they think that will be to their advantage, is he going to let them control or is he just going to go ahead and do a budget deal according to the laws already

passed, the deal he already negotiated and do it with most of the republicans and democrats to help him get it across the finish line? that's the question for kevin mccarthy. >> we want to get your response to senator tommy tuberville, who continues to block the promotions of 301 military leaders. he said in an interview last night on fox news that his stance is gaining support within the republican party. take a listen. >> oh yeah, yeah. they're seeing the attack mode right now, all the people coming out of the white house and speaking against me. of course, it's a hard topic to get on top of, but we're pro life and we should be. we're the republicans. >> there is a huge percentage of the people they want to elevate to another star, possibly to even a four star. by the way, we've already got 44.

that's way too many as it is. all they want to do -- >> check boxes? >> yeah, check boxes, talk about dei, everything about equity. one thing about the military, it's not an equal opportunity employer. i don't care -- brown says i want more black pilots. i'm fine with that, if they're the best. there's no second place in war. we have to have the best. right now we are so woke in the military. we're losing recruits right and left. secretary del toro of the navy needs to get to building ships, recruiting and getting wokeness out of our navy. we have people doing poems on aircraft carriers over the loudspeaker. it is insane the direction we're headed in our military. >> i don't know where to begin. senator warren, i'm sure you have a response to those comments. i'm also curious, i'm sure you speak to some of your republican counterparts in the senate.

how can they allow this guy to continue with this? what's going on? >> so let's start with the first part. that is, what senator tuberville is doing is undermining our national security. this is what the secretary of defense says, this is what all of the defense experts say. i'm sure you've heard this story about the chinese diplomat who recently was laughing and making fun at his american counterpart because we can't even get our military promotions in line. i was recently over in nato. i'm the head of the personnel subcommittee of the senate armed services committee. i was talking with our folks on the front lines in the negotiations to help support ukraine and working with our nato allies. one of the things they talked about is how senator tuberville's nine months so far hold on promotions means there are places where we don't have

the right person in the room or we don't have anyone in the room to be able to negotiate. that is being replicated all around the world. no heads of the fifth fleet, the seventh fleet, cyber command, soon to be no head of the joint chiefs. this undermines our national security. now, for senator tuberville to turn around and try to attack the military as somehow it's okay to leave these places blank, i want to remind him, he voted for every one of these people in committee. if he had a problem with it, he had an opportunity to raise it. so he has voted yes on all 301 of these people. now that it's becoming a little bit of a political hot seat for him to defend holding up their promotions for this long, now he goes on the attack after our military. that is not only dangerous.

it is shameful. >> it is stunning to hear a prominent united states senator, particularly a republican, they've made their name on being pro military in many ways, to explicitly go after the united states military. senator, you have many republican friends on the other side of the aisle. mitch mcconnell has said publicly he disagrees with what tommy tuberville is doing here. are they truly powerless? is there really no power among republican leadership to say, you've made your point, knock it off, you're hurting our military? >> of course they have the power to shut him down. they can go to him and say, we're done with you, you've made your point, you've got to vote in committee on the policy that he wanted and he lost, but that's not enough for him. they can go to him and say we're

done, you've got to shut this down. it's nine months and more than 300 people. i talk about the military implications of this. i want to do the other half, what it means for families. i've talked to so many people now who say, i'm career military, i've signed up for whatever my country asks me to do, but i was told i was going to be halfway around the world, we made arrangements, my spouse found a job there, we took a home there, we started setting up, we told the people here that we were leaving, and now we're trying to maintain two houses. we don't know where to put our kids in school. this is tearing people's lives apart. one of the generals said to me, i don't believe in complaining, i signed up for the military. but he said, i worry about our mid level, our best and

brightest who have been in ten years, 12 years. you watch a senator try to turn the military into a political football. they look at that and say, you know, maybe this is not the best place for my career. maybe i just get out now, take this experience, take this training and go to the private sector. that will be the long-term cost of senator tuberville's extreme efforts to try to advance an unpopular agenda that he got a vote on that he lost on, but that he is determined to take it out on america's military that's just awful. >> crazy. >> senator warren, we want to turn to the new cnn poll and get your reaction to some numbers here. 39% of those surveyed give president biden a positive approval rating, 61% do not. 67% of democrats would prefer a

different candidate. only 33% would like to stay with the incumbent president. 58% of all voters feel that biden's policies have worsened economic conditions to this point in the term. why do you think they're having such a hard time getting their message through on the economy? why do you think so many democrats would like to see someone else be their standard bearer next year? >> i can't do polls. i'm not good at this. i can tell you this, the president is doing a great job. how do i know that? i look at what he's delivered. i look at $35 insulin. wow. we're soon to hit a $2,000 cap on what seniors pay for out-of-pocket medical care. i look at junk fees and the number of people who are not going to get bled for $50 here

and $35 over there. he's passed the biggest climate package in the history of the world. it is paid for by my 15% minimum corporate tax that senator angus king and i were able to push through. so billionaire corporations are not going to get away with billions and profits and paying no taxes. i think part of the job over the next year and three months will be getting out, talking to the american people. what's happening increasingly, i think, is the american people feel it. i do town halls and i ask people about how many in here use insulin. boy, start the conversation about $35 insulin and we're off and running. it's the tangible things he's done, the new easy school buses lining up in massachusetts on

the first day of school. those are real differences. i think he's doing a great job and i think it's going to matter to the american people. >> let's go back to senator tuberville for just a moment. >> all right. >> so i believe the closest he's ever been to the military was maybe a halftime marching band. that's one. two, why haven't the democrats -- you've mentioned the republicans. they want him to stop it with no success, obviously. so the democrats, why don't you play offense? you're the majority. why isn't there some movement on the part of the democratic majority by statute or proposed statute or whatever, strong statement to join together with us to stop tommy tuberville. why haven't the democrats done

that? >> do keep in mind that the current rules of the senate involve any one senator can block a promotion. any one senator can block a nomination and force it through the whole filibuster and multiple votes and hours chewed up. >> i understand that. but the rules of the senate don't apply to verbal attacks made on another senator. verbally. the majority of the senate, the democrats, why don't they stand as one in unison verbally against this man? >> i hear your point. i'm ready. we have done some of this in smaller groups. i think you're exactly right. we have got to stand up and continue to talk about this. you know, i was on the floor a month ago, and i started reading through who the people are that are up for promotion, what those

jobs are and forcing senator tuberville one at a time to object to them. i think it's time for us to turn up the heat on that and all of the democrats to be involved. i will tell you this. from talking about it with my democratic colleagues, there is no dissension. the democrats absolutely understand that what senator tuberville is doing is undermining our national security, and he is playing politics with our military and our safety in a way that we cannot reward. we cannot let him continue in this. i'm with you. we need republican help to change the rules, but we can sure stand up and try to hold him accountable in front of the american people for all that he is doing. he deserves every ugly term that gets thrown at him. >> wow. senator elizabeth warren, thank

you very much for coming on the show this morning. it's always good to see you. >> thank you. and this big news we're covering this morning, the justice department special counsel leading an investigation into president joe biden's son is seeking a grand jury indictment before the end of the month. in a court filing yesterday, u.s. attorney david weiss revealed the planned timeline to charge husband for possessing a gun while using narcotics. both the gun felony and the separate tax fraud charge were expected to be resolved through a plea deal last month. under its terms, the gun charge would have been dismissed in two years if hunter stayed out of trouble. but the agreement fell apart when a judge raised questions about it during a hearing. in a statement, hunter's attorney writes they, quote, believe the agreement remains valid and prevents any

additional charges from being filed against mr. biden. the government has pushed back against those claims, saying the terms of the plea deal were never finalized. so indictment for hunter biden probably in the next month. >> the idea that this plea deal would protect him from future charges, that's the sticking point. we know, though, that this is also what triggered the appointment that made weiss become a special counsel, republicans howling that hunter biden had gotten some sort of sweetheart deal. they forget weiss was appointed by president trump. this is to be expected. we don't know where else the special counsel will go with this probe. certainly it takes a significant toll on the president and his

family, deeply worried about his son hunter. we'll have to see what the next steps in the legal obligations are. >> senator mccarthy has been talking a lot about the inquiry in the last few weeks. as we mentioned at the top of the show, we're following the latest in the ongoing manhunt for a dangerous fugitive in pennsylvania. some schools in the area remain closed this morning with the convicted killer still on the loose. george solis has the latest. >> reporter: as the intensifying manhunt for danelo cavalcante enters its second week, officials releasing this video of his daring escape, describing how he scaled a wall before pushing his way through razor wire. >> why did it take so long to alert the public how he escaped?

>> there is a simultaneous investigation into the prison escape. today was the day we believed we would need to bring in the acting warden to address the public about how he escaped. >> reporter: it took almost an hour for officers to realize he was missing. >> by 10:01 a.m. the public was notified. >> reporter: they say it was the same route another convict used to flee in may before being quickly apprehended. consultants were brought in after that may escape and security measures updated, including the addition of the razor war. a retired pennsylvania police sergeant who now specializes in security. >> security measures don't eliminate risk 100%. >> reporter: the convicted killer navigating rough terrain for days, leaving some residence

residents and business owners at a loss. coming up, a look at the biden campaign's latest effort to connect with voters in battleground states. plus, secretary of state antony blinken wrapping up his fourth trip to ukraine. antony blinken wrapping up his fourth trip to ukraine rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. ( ♪♪ ) the first fda-approved rsv vaccine. arexvy is used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv and over 94% effective in those with these health conditions. ( ♪♪ )

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welcome back. ahead of his trip to the gto, the biden campaign is releasing a new ad highlighting the president's leadership on the world stage, entitled "war zone." the ad is part of a 16-week, $25 million ad campaign in battleground states. here is a first look at it. >> it was the first time in modern history.

>> very significant moment on the world stage. >> that an american president went into a war zone not controlled by the united states. >> a nearly 40-hour journey in and out of ukraine. >> president biden left washington, d.c. at 4:00 a.m. on sunday, landed in eastern poland and took a 9 1/2 hour train to kyiv. >> in the morning, joe biden walked shoulder to shoulder with our allies in the war-torn streets, standing up for democracy in a place where a tyrant is waging war to take it away. >> air burglar blaired as the two walked together. >> a truly leader doesn't back down to a dictator. biden, president. >> i'm joe biden, and i approve this message. >> meanwhile, secretary of state antony blinken is in ukraine today, wrapping up his trip to

the war-torn nation. earlier the secretary toured what used to be a farm occupied by russian forces that was rigged with land mines when they were forced out. there, ukrainian officials detailed their process to de-mine the area in order to make it safe. secretary blinken also stopped at a school where russia kept ukrainian hostages earlier in the war. there he spoke with nbc news correspondent richard engel. >> reporter: good morning. i'm in an ukrainian village about two hours north of kyiv. secretary blinken was just here. we came with his security entourage. this area was controlled by russian forces. he came to visit this school. russian troops were driven out of this area. you can see a destroyed russian tank right here. it's still an area with a lot of unexploded ordinance and land

mines. his security detail came with metal detectors to look for any explosive explosives. he said he wanted to see this place where hundreds of ukrainian citizens were held against their will by russian troops, people died because of starvation and torture and terrible deprivation. this is a cymbal -- symbol of the war. i asked him about the counteroffensive, does he think it's working, does he think it has any hope of success? >> fundamentally, this is ukraine's land, ukraine's future, ukraine's freedom. that's what its soldiers with fighting for. that's what its people are fighting for. >> have you seen or heard anything on this trip that gives you specifically confidence about the counteroffensive going on right now? >> the last time i was here in

ukraine was almost exactly a year ago. in that time over the last year, the ukrainians have taken back more than 50% of the territory seized by the russians starting in february of 2022. . >> in the last three months progress has been very, very slow. almost all of the territory regained was about a year ago. recent gains have been little villages and little areas. >> it's step by step. they knew this was going to be a hard fight. especially over the last couple of weeks we are seeing tangible progress. i heard a report from president zelenskyy and his military advisors, and i think we are seeing real forward movement. coming up on "morning joe," football is back tonight. the new season kicks off. it's the moment when every fans'

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defend their super bowl title. >> i love it. >> you don't sit down the whole entire game. if you can't stand up for 3 hours, you probably shouldn't go. >> reporter: with patrick mahomes at the helm, they've won two championships in the last four years. no team has won back to back in nearly two decades. coming to the electric environment of arrowhead stadium are the detroit lions. they're in unfamiliar territory as favorites to win their division. and a new era begins in new york. aaron rodgers leaving the packers to join the jets, where they're desperate to end the longest playoff drought in the nfl. they're facing the buffalo bills, a team energized by the return of damar hamlin. around the league, who's not playing causing more drama. here in kansas city, chris jones

is in a contract dispute. travis kelce making this plea on his podcast earlier this week. >> chris, can you please come back? you're really scaring me, man. i really want to get another super bowl ring with me. this is me begging you to come back and play football for the chiefs. >> reporter:kelce's status is in doubt. >> what would it take for this season to top last? >> definitely another kelce ball. >> kaylee hartung reporting there. with us now, someone who knows the lions' painful history, tim alberta.

barry sanders, greatest running back of all time? >> by a mile. it's not even a conversation. >> let's read from your piece in the atlantic titled "the thrill of defeat." you discuss fatherhood, fandom and the lions' faithful. quote, the lions had been the better team. even a kid could see that. but we lost anyway in dramatic fashion. it was too much for my 7-year-old emotions to process. so i went. as we pulled into our driveway, my dad said it's just a game, we'll win the next one. it was the only lie my dad ever told me. a few summers ago, the day after dad did, i stood outside a funeral home with my brother

brian. after standing in silence for a while, my brother let out a sigh. man, he said, pops never got to see the lions win. thought about it last summer when my wife and i took our son to his first lions game. we pacified him with candy and a stuffed mascot. me wife turned to me. her tone was serious as a practicing child therapist, she knew what trauma looked like. she was worried about our son. are you sure you want to do this to him, she asks? is it fair to force that on someone? losing is hard and harrowing, but inevitable. what's necessary to win, resolve, perseverance and grit, that's what my dad taught me and that's what i hope to teach my son. lewis approached me apropos of nothing. dad, he asked, can we go to a

lions game this year i was reminded of another virtue of losing. it makes victory that much sweeter. let's go back to the beginning of your lions fandom. since 1957, the lions have exactly one playoff win. you have earned your right to be a die-hard fan. >> yeah. it is truly one of the most astonishing statistics in all of sports. yes, since the eisenhower administration, the detroit lions have won exactly one playoff game. i write about the first game i ever went to in the 1993 playoffs when the lions had taken the lead late in the game. to this day, i've never heard anything louder than that night inside the silverdome

in pontiac, michigan. that was 30 years ago. yet, i can still vividly recall not just my emotions and the weeping on the way out of the game, but this feeling that my dad gave me. it's okay, it's just one game. they'll win the next one. 30 years later i'm still waiting for them to win the next one, which is tragic in its own way. it's incredible if you talk to fans of other teams who have suffered this way, the red sox or the cubs, they can relate to how this losing and this long suffering fanhood of ours is actually so special in its own way. it really is the foundation of a bond and a shared identity that you have with other fans that you can't appreciate when you're

part of a winning team. >> tim, i'm here as a red sox fan to tell you that it will all be worth it at some point. i've also followed the lions all of my life. every thanksgiving, the lions were the thanksgiving pro game we'd watch. in 2003, i had all my sons in yankee stadium for the red sox versus the yankees, the aaron boone home run game off of tim wakefield. i looked down at my youngest boy who was then 10 years of age. his older brother colin tapped me on the shoulder and said, dad, you better take care of tim. the game was over. the yankee crowd was going crazy. i looked down at tim, and he had tears in his eyes the size of hubcaps. i grabbed him and hugged him.

i thought to myself, what i have done. a year later almost to the day all of us were back in yankee stadium and that was the johnny damon grand slam home run game that the red sox won the world series. all of your son's feelings, your past feelings, the teared you have shared, your dad's memory, it will all come home wonderfully well when the lions win. and they will win finally in the super bowl. i'm here to promise you that. >> mike, you've warmed my heart on this chilly michigan morning. somebody said to me the other day, well, do you worry if they win, that you'll finally be the dog that caught the car and suddenly this special sense of

identity that you're been nurtuing all these years will be lost if you're a winner? you know what? i'm willing to find out. there's only so much suffering that's good for you. >> you'll be just fine. let's move to the present. this is an unusual moment for the lions. there's a lot of buzz. they're a trendy pick to go pretty far in the playoffs. what do you think? >> i'm drinking the honolulu blue kool-aid by the gallon. there's no way for me to get around it. this is the most complete lions team. not just the locker room or the roster, but from the head coach to the front office to ownership, this is the most well-run lions organization of my lifetime. they ended the year so hot and they've only gotten better top to bottom. i fully anticipate that the

bettors in vegas are going to be rewarded. who am i to come on "morning joe" and say we might just win a playoff game? 2023 is the year of the lion. i think this is it. we can roll this tape back in february if i'm made to look like a fool. i don't see any use in half measures. i think the lions are going all the way. >> dream big, baby. there's something about delayed gratification, loss, imagining one's loyalties in spite of defeat that seems to be a lesson for the country. you write this piece and express your joys and worries around and concerns where we seem to be

so weighted down by the lessons of politics. what message are you trying to convey beyond the sport? >> it's funny. i think it was dave barry who wrote that sports are really just life's toy department. when you put it in that perspective, you can think as sports as just a game. but you can also think about sports as a grand metaphor for life as far as the highs and lows and disappointments and how you handle them. i think a lot of people watching you guys this morning have had great failure, great loss, great trauma in their own lives that far exceeds any loss on the football field or the baseball diamond, obviously. but learning to grow from those setbacks, learning to get back on your feet when you've been knocked down. i talk even about the city of

detroit and why a city that has three other teams that have enjoyed enormous success in my lifetime, it's the lions that really are the favorite sons of detroit in part because of those struggles in a city that has been kicked around and been the laughingstock of the country. so many people in the community who have been through terrible hard times in the last decades have ralied about this team because they see their own struggle reflected in the team. sports can serve as a galvanizing influence in that way and really in a way that transcends the box score beyond anything that happens inside the white lines. sports can help us relate to the world at large and if nothing else get a break from the craziness out there every day. >> tim alberta, thank you very much. you can see tonight's season opener on nbc and peacock at 8:20 eastern time.

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all right, "time" magazine is out with its inaugural time 100 ai, a new list highlighting the 100 most influential people in the field of artificial intelligence. among those picked for the issue are tesla and x ceo elon musk and former google ceo eric schmidt as well as our next guest, the ceo of inflection ai. mustafa suleman, he's out with a

new book "the coming wave." and let's start with that dilemma with an excerpt that kind of encapsulates the challenge here. it's in the book's prologue, and it says, with ai we could create systems that are beyond our control and find ourselves at the mercy of algorithms that we don't understand. with biotechnology we could manipulate the very building blocks of life, potentially creating unintended consequences for both individuals and entire ecosystems. the fate of humanity hangs in the balance and the decisions we make in the coming years and decades will determine whether we rise to the challenge of these technologies or fall victim to their dangers. in this moment of uncertainty, one thing is certain. the age of advanced technology

is upon us and we must be ready to face its challenges head on. the prologue concludes like this. the above was written by an ai. the rest is not, although it soon could be. this is what is coming. is it too late? >> it's definitely not too late. >> are you sure? >> technologies have always made us richer and smarter and over many, many centuries, we've now invented things that have made us healthier, wealthier, given millions of people the opportunity to move out of poverty and eat better, live better, get access to health care. that is the natural trajectory of technology that we're on. every time we have a new technology, there are risks, and this time is no different. we really have to contain those risks and make sure that, you know, these technologies are accountable to our democratic elected governments, and that's the story i've tried to write in the book. >> so ai is such a catch all,

mustafa. people say the robots are coming and they're going to take over, but it also means it finds better directions to the bookstore on my phone. so when you say ai, what excites you most and what worries you most? >> well, some of the most exciting applications are actually in health care. i mean, imagine having a perfect doctor that can read radiology scans, extremely cheaply, instantly, and with access to the entire history of all past cases. typically your best doctor may have only read 30,000 cases in their entire life, but the ai doctor will have seen millions and millions and that allows it to be more accurate and more cheap. we can make it available to hundreds of millions of people, and that's the trajectory that we're on over the next decade. everybody is going to get access to the very best health care, the very best tutor or educator. everyone is going to get that in their pocket, and i think that will make us radically richer, wealthier, and happier. >> it seems as if the conversation about ai has picked

up in the last year or two. i recognize obviously it's been working on it much earlier than that. it's the speed of this. isn't that part of this? it's unrelenting speed that's only going to accelerate, and that's what makes people nervous. why shouldn't they be? >> that's exactly right. the upside is that things are progressing incredibly fast. everybody's able to play with this technology, develop it, use it to build their own types of ai. the downside is we also need our institutions and our popular culture to be able to adapt at the same speed. this is clearly going to change who we are as a expertise and how we live and how we organize ourselves, just as every past technology has changed what it means to be human. we now have aircraft that enable us to travel all around the world in just a few hours. that has completely transformed globalism and nationalism, our sense of self. we have to make sure things change at a pace people can

accept. >> what do you make of the ethical constraints on this, right? what happens when the top 100 list includes elon musk, eric schmidt, these are capitalists, they are moving on the basis of a certain set of assumptions. the economic may presuppose a set of disposable people as a result. how do we think about the ethical constraints around ai? >> in a world that's run by greed and selfishness often? >> i am a capitalist. this is how we have produced enormous value in the world, so we have to praise and cherish that system, but it also needs shackles and constraints, and that's where regulation comes in. i think that in the last couple of years, we've put a lot of effort into talking to this administration, president biden, but also many other regulators around the world to raise concerns and say, look, this is only going to work if we have sensible guardrails that

restrict the technology. that put a slowness on how it is implemented throughout the world, and that's how we'll stay accountable to the people. >> that sounds a little too easy. i mean, how do we get everybody on the same page about this and have sensible regulations on it? >> i think that is going to be challenging. we have differences of values with our adversaries in china, for example. >> look at covid. >> we are definitely going to be on different ends of the spectrum here. we believe in freedom and openness and allowing people to experiment. in china they have a very different attitude and they see this as an opportunity to increase surveillance, to have face recognition everywhere. at the same time, we have to understand it has to be regulated. >> the coming wave, the new book is entitled "the coming wave: technology, power, and the 21st century's greatest dilemma." thank you so much for being on the show this morning. we appreciate it, and thank you all for being with us. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the

coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," a warning to the georgia prosecutors putting donald trump on trial, why the judge thinks the sprawling case will take longer than they expect and might be unrealistic to get started next month. so what happens now in this already complicated case? plus, the hunch for a killer enters week two. new video showing it only took seconds -- look at this -- for this escaped pennsylvania murderer to scale those two prison walls. and later the potentially dangerous hurricane lee intensifying this morning, projected to become a category 4. we're tracking where it's headed next. good morning. thanks so much for joining us. it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york, and we begin with new skepticism from a judge in georgia that donald trump and his