good to be with you, i'm katy tur, and welcome once again to the witching hour. there's a lot happening right now, so bear with us as we bounce around the room a bit. pennsylvania state police are scheduled to give an update on the state murderer, which they are doing right now. yesterday at this hour, we got that video of the murderer escaping out of the pennsylvania prison. so let us go right there and see what they are telling us today. this search, by the way, is now in day eight. >> escape from the chester county prison. as an update, earlier today we had a possible sight of cavalcante by a person in the vicinity of longwood gardens, a search of the area has been underway in the past few hours, and continues at this time. our search perimeter remains unchanged with the exception that we have thoroughly searched the area around two elementary schools previously contained within the perimeter and have

adjusted the perimeter to exclude both schools from the perimeter area. we've done this in an effort to minimize the impact on students and their families while we continue with our search efforts. the district attorney and i have an ongoing dialogue with school districts in the area and are committed to providing them the most up-to-date information so they can make informed decisions about cool operations. i have told you all previously that we are utilizing hundreds of state, local, and federal law enforcement officers, k-9s, aviation assets and various types of technology in an effort to keep the community safe and to bring this to a swift a conclusion as possible. i would like to provide the media and public for opportunity of insight of the scope of the operation we have put in place. following the press conference today, i'll provide you details of how we can make that happen. as a reminder, we're asking the public's help by familiarizing themselves with the photograph and description of the

cavalcante, to check security cameras they have, and to call us immediately if they believe they may have seen him. again, we ask residents to please secure homes, outbuildings and vehicles. cavalcante has clearly already owned some clothing and other unknown supplies, and we want to minimize any opportunity that he might have to get anything more. it is very important we keep the pressure on him as we continue this hunt. cavalcante is considered extremely dangerous and there is a reward of up to $20,000 offered for information leading to the capture of cavalcante. anyone with information asked to call our tip line at 717-562-2987. 717-562-2987. i continue to thank the community for their support and for allowing us the latitude to do our jobs while they deal with what i know are extremely stressful circumstances. we appreciate you all more than

you know. and i wanted to also, because we've had a number of inquiries, i mentioned an injury to one of our tactical dogs the other day, loki, and i wanted to provide you all just a brief update. he is doing well, has been released from the hospital earlier today, and is expected to make a full recovery and return to work within the next week. with that, we will be happy to take any questions you might have. >> can you provide details of the longwood gardens event, we saw the helicopter drop very low, right off the deck, and seemed to try to spread the under lawn. >> an individual reported that he had seen someone matching that description, and he provided us a location that he had seen them running through that area. and so searchers have gone to that area. we're using people on foot. we have horses out there as well that are assisting with the search tactical teams and of course the aviation assets you

mentioned. >> how close is this search to that trail camera location? >> it's not very far from that location. >> reporter: which schools were removed from the search? >> that was the greenwood elementary and chad's ford elementary. >> reporter: how big is this radius now that we're looking at? initially it started within that 2 mile radius, and then to longwood. can you give us an exact distance that you're searching, the entire footprint? >> it's about an 8 to 10 square mile area that we're looking at right now. it's a couple of miles across, but the total mileage would be 8 to 10 miles. >> reporter: is there any validity that he was actually at walmart in east marlboro township? there was reported sightings there. >> i'm aware of that report, and we do not believe that was him. >> reporter: and given the newly released footage yesterday, he is so agile, has law enforcement been looking up in trees and

foliage, have you all been looking in storm water management within these neighborhoods, and have you been going door to door in various neighborhoods for welfare checks. >> yes to all of those, it's been a thorough search. >> reporter: do you have a strategy of preventing him from escaping the brandy wine creek to the river? >> we do. >> reporter: can you elaborate on that? >> no. >> reporter: what time was the sighting reported? >> just before noon. >> reporter: today? >> yes. >> reporter: do you still believe he's within that 8 to 10 mile perimeter you set up. >> i have every reason to believe he's still in that perimeter. >> reporter: can you tell us why? >> we have no sightings outside that area. we have maintained as secure a perimeter as we possibly could and as recently as today, we have another reported sighting. >> reporter: what are the sides of your perimeter? >> so it is bordered on the

north by 926, on the east by 100 or creek road. on the south by hillendale, and on the west, by 52. >> reporter: colonel, how much bigger is this perimeter today than say last friday? >> it is larger. i couldn't tell you what the difference in size is, though. off the top of my head. >> reporter: but this is the same as yesterday, right? >> it is. >> reporter: do you have any evidence he has obtained a weapon, anything new on that front. >> i do not have any evidence to that effect. >> caller: overturning -- >> i'm sorry, just a minute, ma'am. >> reporter: you mentioned it has an effect on the k-9 officer, is there any troop cameras may have been impeded or not working at the time of the escape? >> i couldn't speak to what effect anything would have on the cameras in prison. >> reporter: can you talk about the effect of law enforcement numbers on the ground? >> it makes it very challenging.

you know, certainly all of you have been out in this weather, high temperatures, high humidity. they're wearing, you know, uniforms with bullet resistant vests and carrying a lot of equipment. it certainly adds to the challenge. with that said, i have not heard a single complaint, and i think our people are up to the task, but. >> reporter: do they get some break time, cool down time, water breaks? >> if someone needs it, we absolutely get them some rest, but typically what we have been doing is we're transporting fluids, food, those kinds of things to sustain them and keep them well hydrated out to their locations. >> reporter: thank you so much. two questions here, the mushroom festival returns for the 28th year in kennett square, which is a couple of miles from the gardens, the mushroom festival will return as planned. are law enforcement seizing federal agencies working closely with local police to ensure that the escapee will not go towards

the burrow because some people are planning not to attend due to the escape convict even though he has not been spotted there. any thoughts on that? >> we're working hard to capture the escaped convict and not allow him to go anywhere. we are well aware of the festival, and we are working with a number of authorities, law enforcement, emergency management and so forth to make sure that people feel very safe at that festival. >> reporter: in terms of technology has changed from 1999, when norman escaped, here for three weeks in chester county, in 1999. how has technology changed that is supporting your efforts to find him? any thoughts on that? >> with your cell phone, it's changed dramatically in that amount of time, and so we take advantage of some of the latest state of the art options available. we use a wide array of

technology. we have federal partners that we have talked about previously, all of the assets of our agencies are brought to bear. >> the eastern perimeter, how did you decide to remove chats port elementary school from the search area. >> we carved it out by putting additional officers around there. we cleared that property and then put officers around it so that we could carve that piece out. >> the property at the school. >> yes. >> as you know, another prisoner escaped from warren county. >> yes. >> reporter: was found some days later hiding out in the woods, so it seems like there's sort of a parallel to be drawn here. two different types of man hunts. i wonder if you have any thoughts on how that situation compared to the search now, and there are differences between the two that explained the challenge. >> you know, those are two of

the more recently, this one and that are two of the more recently examples we have had. there are similarities on any situation for a man hunt like this. we try to learn something from each of those incidents that we handle. take from that how to run a smoother operation. our partners in many cases are the same. in fact some of the people here from the federal agencies are some of the same teams and resources i was on the warren county search as well. so they're some o. same resources. again, all of us take lessons learned from it. we adapt those to the different circumstances we find, and you know, there are different challenges with every particular search. if we moved 20 miles down the road, there would perhaps be different challenges than what we have here. we would adjust to those. >> there's speculation of the heat seeking technology, thermal imaging technology used is not working because it's so hot, is

that correct. is all the technology you're using in that regard working because of the heat? >> it is. weather can certainly have an impact on it. but it does not take that technology out of the game at all. at times to use the example of thermal imaging, you can get some additional hot spots, rocks, different things like that can cause a hot spot, but it requires you to check a few more things, but it does not diminish our desire to use it. >> reporter: are you concerned that he is growing more desperate and yet more dangerous, the time that he spends out in in weather and being hunted by you? >> i believe he becomes more desperate. i believe he has always been very dangerous, and i've said that from the start. he's already murdered two people, one in brazil, and one here, in a very brutal manner. he's a very dangerous

individual, and he remains so. >> reporter: is this is 8th confirmed sighting or are there more, and can you walk us through those eight? it seems like he's going back and forth. >> i don't have all of those other sightings here in front of me. but i can get that for you, and we can talk about it another time. >> we know you checked some homes before, are you going back and rechecking homes, and if nobody is home, what are you doing, checking with relatives to make sure he's not in there. >> we are checking homes, talking to neighborhood, and each one is handled on an individual basis. we typically can check, you know, tax records, county records to try and find an owner if we're just completely unsuccessful. the biggest thing we look for immediately while we're there is any sign at all of forced entry, and we have found some open homes, and in those cases we tried to obtain permission,

otherwise, we can at least make sure that that home is not occupied. >> reporter: he's gotten into any of these homes? we've had people contact us saying they believe things have been taken or moved. on your end -- >> i have not been able to confirm a single case to this point. it doesn't mean he hasn't, but i have not been able to confirm a single case. >> reporter: downstairs when they were up stairs? >> yes. >> reporter: is that a confirmed entry. >> i don't doubt someone was down there. i cannot confirm it was him. >> reporter: have additional special forces arrived, sir? >> we have had tactical teams from all over the country come in and continue to come in. we have some additional resources that are arriving today and part of the team arrived yesterday, and will arrive today, and will become operational by tomorrow, so one of the things, when i talk about after the press conference being

able to give you some additional insight of how we can do this, we'll have an opportunity to talk about some of those teams tomorrow, and give you some idea. i think -- and i'll come back to some of your questions in a minute, but i think what i would like you all to see is that there is an amazing operation going on here. there's a collaboration between local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. this is not simply a situation where we have a police dispatcher sitting and taking a call and dispatching the police car to go and follow this. it is a very sophisticated, well staffed operation that i believe, again, when you have an opportunity to see some of that, there's some portions obviously that i can't show you everything. i think you would have an opportunity to see enough of it to truly come away with an understanding of the effort that

is being made to ensure we end this as quickly as possible, to ensure the safety of the community. we absolutely understand their concern. i get it as a parent why other parents are concerned about their children going to school, playing in the yard, all of those kinds of things. again, having been involved in number of these searches, it is the same with every one of those, and we want to end this as quickly as possible. we'll throw every available resource at it to do it. >> reporter: are you confident knowing he's going back and forth to the same places again and again. what does that do to bolster morale out here and does it bolster. >> there is no impact on moral years ago i have yet to hear a single complaint. i interact with our people. we have shift changes where we brief out outgoing troopers and officers. the morale is high, and i talked

to them when they come in after a lengthy shift and working in these conditions. morale remains high. these are people volunteering to come here, many from out of the area, who are volunteering in the case of state police, they're being paid, i don't mean to sound like they're not being paid. but they are asking their commanders to come here. >> reporter: any sense of where he's going, and can you confirm there was no equipment failure at the prison as it related to any heat that may have impacted the cameras or technology that could have hastened his escape. >> i cannot speak to the technology at the prison, that is not my focus at this point. there is an ongoing investigation that i'm sure will reveal if there was any kind of failure or whether it was a failure of an individual or group of individuals, that will all be determined and acted on appropriately but for right now, again, the priority for me and

our focus is on getting minimum back into custody. >> do you have a sense of where he's going? >> i have some ideas, again, i can't get inside his head. i wish i could. i wish i could go right to where he is. so we use our experience. we use the information that's available to us, and then we also use any number of different techniques to try and push him. to try and get him to make a mistake, and to detect that mistake when it occurs. >> >> reporter: can you explain why you can't have a perimeter and squeeze in and get him. obviously it's not that simple or you would have done it, why doesn't that work? >> a number of reasons, it's not a perfect open piece of land that you can march through. you've got businesses, residences, highways, hills, valleys, wooded areas that can't be pushed through. the number of people that it would take to contain that area

and be able to walk shoulder to shoulder through the area and squeeze, and the amount of time that it would take, it's just simply not realistic to do that. if we were talking about, you know, one city block or something like that, it would be a different story. it's too large of an area to be able to squeeze in and push like that. >> could you provide an estimate as to how that personnel are currently at longwood gardens to track this guy down right now, and what tactics and what technology is being used? >> off the top of my head, i couldn't speculate. it would be a large number of people. we don't break the perimeter. we're not moving every person there. we want to keep the perimeter secure while we remove response teams there. i mentioned, you know, tactical teams, aviation, mounted detail, some other foot searchers, besides the tactical teams. k-9s, all of that is brought to

bear in terms of the specific number, i couldn't give you that. >> reporter: he broke -- >> i'm sorry. >> reporter: there was a report of a man that said he broke into had his house, and also using -- >> we are using tracking dogs, and, yes, i believe the account that someone broke in, i'm saying i can't conclusively prove it was him. >> has he left any traces that you have found, traces of anything, traces of clothes, food, in western pennsylvania, camp sites, has he left any traces at all? >> we have not recovered anything that i can conclusively say was his at this point. >> there's a lot of speculation yesterday about his training as a survivalist, you led the search for green in the poconos. can you talk about that search that went on for 48 days. >> there's a lot of similarities

between any of these searches. the difference will is the level of violence, we knew frein was armed and so both very violent individuals, very dangerous individuals. the difference is with frein, you're hunting for a person with a rifle that will penetrate the body armor of any of the officers that are out there. and did penetrate the body armor of the corporal that he killed. and so it brings a different dynamic to that search. but there are a lot of similarities in the search as well, and again, that's where i tell you that we try to take lessons from all of those and bring those to the next job. >> so the gardens is west of 52 is that outside your perimeter, and i believe today was the first day -- >> yes, longwood gardens proper is out there. they have additional property that is within the perimeter, and it's in the vicinity of that that i'm speaking. >> and was that that area that was not open to the public at

the perimeter? >> i can't speak to whether longwood gardens had that piece open or not. there wasn't anybody in there. >> reporter: so not all of longwood gardens in the perimeter, correct? >> correct. >> a question fort district attorney. it was adjacent to the person spoke to us about their concerns for their safety not the first time that someone escaped from the prison but now the second time. they are curious about alerts. they're on record today saying that in may, there was no siren, there was no warning. as the chief law enforcement officer for chester county, how can you assure these neighbors that they're not everyone for themselves out there? >> i understand that alerts do go out. the first prison escape in may, he was captured within five minutes is my understanding.

i don't know if there was time for an alert to go out. but i don't know that information conclusively. they were sending out alerts repeatedly through reverse 911 calls, and keep expanding the perimeter and radius where they expand the notifications, they are on high alert, and the communities affected immediately are alerted right away. i know that the time frame is very rapid from when they are alerted until they have an incident. >> i know it was under investigation but this is supposed to be a facility that holds these dangerous people. >> absolutely. this is an outrage. this should have never happened. i was the prosecutor assigned to this case, and i helped convict this man. he was sentenced to life without parole. we're all upset and concerned. there will be a thorough investigation, and that will be

covered. >> can you speak to the victim and the families. >> they have protection, and they are terrified. they haven't left their home. they're barricaded inside. and very concerned about their safety. we do have police detail around them 24 hours a day. but i know they're very very worried. >> reporter: will you send back to chester county prison? >> he will not be going back to chester county prison. >> reporter: what charges might he face, what does this bring from a criminal liability? >> he's charged with escape right now. that's a felony. >> reporter: where will he go? >> he'll go to a state correctional institution? >> the one that he was sentenced to? >> reporter: he hadn't been assigned to anyone yet. he was on the way to smithfield to be assigned to another location. >> reporter: this was already asked but will you release the video of the escape? >> we're not focusing on that right now. our primary mission is to get this guy in custody. that's where all of our attention is focused at this

moment. >> reporter: did your office answer the motion seeking a retrial for this defendant, i know the judge denied, but did you have a response to their pursuing a new trial? >> we did not respond. the judge decided that on his own. >> reporter: this is a follow up question. we talked with someone who has taken it upon himself to enter into wooded areas and look for cavalcante. what is your message to people who may think that they would be empowered -- >> first of all, they have no authority other than that of a private citizen to do it. they are risking drawing away the law enforcement resources because someone else may see them and report them and we end up having to go investigate that

and draw resources away. so i would ask them not to do it. i can't prevent them from doing it, but they have no authority and run the risk of depending on what action they take, getting themselves in trouble. >> reporter: the most recent sighting long wood gardens. >> i said it was in the vicinity, near longwood gardens. >> reporter: at the vicinity of the property, but not the primary property. >> yes. >> reporter: is it longwood gardens property or near longwood gardens. >> i don't know, sir, i wasn't out there personally on that one. it was in the vicinity. i know where the report was, close to where the camera was which was on longwood gardens property. >> what would you say to those who say he's winning right now. it's eight days, up against your people. you've got technology, he's got barely nothing to eat, and you can't catch him. >> we have chased people for a

lot longer than this and ultimately brought them to justice. we're not going anywhere. we will eventually capture him, and when we do, he's going to prison. i don't consider that winning. >> reporter: there's neighbors in the area where he was spotted by the creek, who were concerned blood hounds weren't being used and the scent may have been lost in the creek. are blood hounds part of what you're using? >> i don't have blood hounds at this particular scene but i have other tracking dogs that we have confidence in, and i'm told can perform in a similar matter, and by the way, we have them from a number of agencies. >> so the heat isn't impacting the tech you're using day and night? >> correct. >> reporter: is there any reason to believe he is getting word from anyone outside of the jail? >> that's something i'm always concerned about but i'm not prepared to discuss that in any further detail at this point.

we are always looking for that, and we continue to look for that because even if it doesn't happen at the beginning, it seems can happen at a later point in the hunt. and so it's something we're always aware of, but i'm not prepared to discuss it. >> there was a report that there was a train stopped and searched. >> there was a train, it was stopped there. the railroads have been cooperative with us. for the most part, what they have been doing is stopping at their normal stop, and we can utilize other surveillance to make sure no one else boards the train do we don't disrupt the train. there have been a number of trains over the last several days that have come through there. >> reporter: does he have relatives in maryland he's maybe trying to get to? that was one thing i heard but

does he have relatives in maryland, relatives near here? >> he has relatives in the general area here. offhand, i'm not familiar with anyone in maryland, if he's trying to get to those, i wouldn't be able to tell you that at this point. >> reporter: have you tried to get information. >> we have spoken to relatives, and i can't go any further than that. >> reporter: yesterday you said something about you believe he's heading south but you couldn't elaborate on that. can you go further today? >> no. again, thank you very much for your helping in getting this word out, keeping the public informed, and we'll talk afterward here about tomorrow. thank you. pennsylvania state police on time for their update on what's going on with this escaped prison, danelo

cavalcante. we are now in day 8 of this. frustration obviously mounting. a lot of people in the area of chester county pretty scared by the fact that this guy is still on the loose. he was spotted earlier today around noon around the vicinity of longwood gardens. this is the 8th confirmed spotting of cavalcante. there's a $20,000 reward for any information leading to his arrest. police believe it's clear that he's obtained some clothing, some supplies, they're not entirely sure how he has been able to do that. they were asked does he have anybody that could be helping him. anybody he might have prearranged ahead of time. they were not ready to give information regarding that. wouldn't confirm or deny it. and they say that he does have relatives in the area, although it's not clear if he's trying to get to those relatives. joining me from kennett square,

pennsylvania, is nbc news correspondent emilie ikeda. thank you so much for being with us. we are on day 8 of this. >> reporter: hey, there, katy, one of the biggest takes aways for me from this news conference is it appears that cavalcante is going back and forth within the same area. remember, it was just several days ago that we got the pictures from the trail cam at longwood gardens, revealing that he had managed to accumulate several items, several supplies. he had a duffel bag, a backpack, a sweat shift. that's where the latest citing came in early today. someone observed him running near longwood gardens, there has been an increased police presence in the area. according to the pennsylvania state police who is leading this investigation, they continue to funnel additional resources here, and resources at all levels. from the federal level, fbi,

cvp, local law enforcement as well. sweeping what we know is an 8 to 10 mile radius. that's how large the search zone is and it continues to shift and expand as they get additional tips and sightings. kind of reacting to his movements, trying to piece together a time line of what is now more than a week. since he escaped the chester county prison. and one of the notable comments. she said this is an outrage and never should have happened. a different prisoner escaped from the chester county prison in a similar manner and cavalcante approaching with a similar approach. the video released this time yesterday during your shoechlt you can see it, just a stunning shimmying his way up. hands on the wall, feet on the other wall. he forced his way through barbed

wire, which is the change they made after the prisoner escape months ago. they want to close the outdoor exercise area that both inmates have escaped from. they want to add security cameras and reposition some of the security officers outside. the big difference here, what happened panned out here last week, the tower guard, according to authorities did not notice cavalcante leave, and so he essentially got an hour head start before the real search effort began and got underway. here we are, katy. day 8 of this massive man hunt, a convicted killer still on the run, and he's not only sentenced to life for killing his girlfriend. remember, he's also wanted for a homicide in his own country of brazil. >> life without the possibility of parole, and the d.a. got up during the news conference and said how frustrated she is that she was the one who put him away. she says the family of the girlfriend obviously terrified right now.

they are being guarded around the clock 24 hours by police officers. and they are clearly very scared. he is not going to go back to the prison according to the d.a. when he is caught. he will go to another facility. he was not supposed to stay in that prison. he was awaiting transfer and then assignment to his ultimate imprezment. emilie ikeda, thank you so much for joining us. we're going to stay on the story obviously. the other stuff that's happening. it's a bit of a witching hour, and bouncing ball of breaking news. we have news out of washington, d.c., and the special counsel investigation. jack smith's 2020 election interference grand jury is neegt again today. and we're wondering what does it have to do with? remember, the indictment for donald trump came out a few months ago. it's the first time we have seen the grand jury meet since then. does it have to do with the

unindicted coconspirators listed in the special counsel paperwork. let's bring in msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin, kristy greenberg, and former dekalb georgia district attorney robert james. we have this story, stuff out of fulton county and the peter navarro case we're watching. the jury is deliberating right now. bear with us, let us start, lisa with what's going on in d.c. this special grand jury, why would it be meeting again? >> they're meeting again to consider new evidence, likely against new defendants or potential additional charges against donald trump. remember, a grand jury can't come together again, to consider further evidence in support of existing charges. so if the grand jury is meeting, it's in furtherance of new facets of the investigation that

could be a superseding indictment that names for example, the six unindicted coconspirators, that's not what i think is going on here. i think the special counsel's office has signalled that they are likely to proceed to trial against donald trump and donald trump alone. i think our colleague andrew weissmann has it right, that this is likely about fundraising and that facet of their investigation. looking at the save america pact for possibility of fraud and maybe even a pretrial seizure of its assets. >> let me ask you a little bit more about that. it's interesting. there was a lot of talk at the time that donald trump was using those funds, not for the purpose he was intending them for. what law would he be in violation of if there is money being raised for a pack that's not being used for what it says it's being used for, is that just straight fraud? >> it would be wire fraud, depending upon how the misrepresentations were communicated to the individuals

that he was seeking the funds from. presumably a number of these communications were over e-mails, and if those were electronic communications, e-mails, that would be a wire, and therefore any misrepresentations about the fact that those funds are going to be used for his campaign, and not for other purposes like legal defense, that would constitute wire fraud. >> a special grand jury meeting, lisa says it's likely only going to be donald trump. that's her read on it. that's andrew weissmann's read is the financial stuff. donald trump is the only person we have seen in the special counsel's indictment on election interference, unlike the fulton county case which has 19 codefendants. are you confident somebody else might not get wrapped up in this. you might not see rudy giuliani or sidney powell if the big case, federal case?

>> so i think it's hard to say. i think it depends on what it is. there seems to be, you know, spelled out in the indictment against donald trump probable cause against the unindicted coconspirators. it's hard to believe there will be no charges brought against those individuals at some point. my guess is that would be a special indictment, a special cause. the special counsel is not going to want to be slowed down with pretrial motions about potential advice of counsel, and other issues that could potentially cause a need to sever the cases. the defenses would be antagonistic to donald trump. if those charges are brought against the unindicted coconspirators, i imagine that would be a separate case. >> let's talk about the other federal case, this has to do with the government documents, classified documents. changed attorneys, recanted,

said he was lying before, and gave a new statement about what he experienced at mar-a-lago. we're told that the special counsel has been able to turn him into a cooperator. what does it mean, christy to have someone like tavarras, who recan'ted their testimony but is cooperating with the special counsel's office. >> a nonprosecution agreement essentially says the government is agreeing not to prosecute him in exchange for him cooperating. under the terms of the agreement, he has to show up when the government wants to meet with him and prepare. he has to answer their questions. he has to, you know, do everything in order to cooperate with the purposes of the government's case, and it may not just be that case, it may be other investigationings that the government is pursuing. but he's committed in that agreement to doing that in exchange for not being prosecuted. so it's an incredibly

significant development. obviously once he changed his testimony, additional, you know, additional individual was charged, so his cooperation is incredibly significant. >> let's switch gears to fulton county and what's been going on down there. first off, judge mcbernie, this is the initial report that laid out the reasons the special grand jury found that d.a. fani willis could indict or should be indicting i believe it was 12 people at that time. >> you know, i'm not sure we know exactly how many people it was. by recollection is that emily coors, the grand jury foreperson said it could be upwards of a dozen people when she spoke with blayne alexander. the report is not so lengthy. it's upper wards of 10 and fewer than 20. we should see what conclusions a special grand jury came to at

the end of their investigation. >> that will ban be an interesting read. file an order to remove his case to federal court as mark meadows and others have done. >> well, you know, obviously the fulton county d.a. is going to oppose that. he would have a distinct advantage in going to federal court. he said once you get outside of 285, which is sort of the boundary interstate for atlanta, things start to become more and more conservative the further north you get. the northern district of georgia, the federal circuit, these are all potential jurors all the way from atlanta up to the tennessee line, and so a lot of those folks are going to be trump supporters. his team wants to get it out of the city of flan. >> get it out of the belt line is the way to put it. let me ask you about just the

case that fani willis has going here. i was talking to chuck rosenberg about this yesterday. 9 codefendants, 19 coconspirators, it's a lot of people. judge mcafee was saying, listen, this is going to be a really difficult thing to try to wrestle with all at once. 19 lawyers, 19 lawyers objecting at different times, side bars, et cetera, not to mention the jury process. you have had the experience of being in a similar position. would you have brought a case against 19 codefendants here. >> it's hard to say without having access to the evidence. there's something to be said about simplicity. keep it simple stud, it's the first rule of law. the three or four incidents don't relate directly. some of the incidents don't know some of the other people, right, and so that could get

complicated and difficult. it's going to take a long time because each one of those individuals has an opportunity and a right to object. they all have a right to question prospective jurors, and they have a right to question prospective witnesses. i'm doubtful they can get it done in four months. >> this is your wheel house because it has to do with congress. this letter from d.a. fani willis to jim jordan, you are way out of your league, sir. >> i thoughts letter was interesting. just as in her communications with mark meadows, she signs it again, yours in service, signed by her directly. there's no mistakes the fact that when it comes to difficult conversations, fani willis is willing to have them herself and stand up for her investigation. she's also telling a bunch of people who for years screamed about state's rights, now is the

time to respect state sovereignty and the value of federalism, the way in which you're trying to investigate my investigation runs rough shot into the value. >> thank you very much for jumping around. i know it's a lot of stories to get in all at once, a lot of different legal cases. i appreciate you, and i appreciate the audience, i know they're so well read on all of this stuff that they're able to bounce around with us as well. thank you very much, moving on. we're going to go to the other special counsel. there's another one. david weiss has indicated that he intends to indict hunter biden. we brought this breaking news at the end of the show yesterday. in a court filing, weiss says he will seek a grand jury to approve gun charges against the president's son before the end of the month. the document also references separately filed misdemeanor tax case which could yield charges. joining us now, nbc news correspondent, julie tsirkin. this is all a result of the plea agreement falling apart.

is it normal to be indicted for the gun charges that hunter biden is face something. >> reporter: certainly not if you ask hunter biden's lawyers. his lawyer put out a statement saying this is not something that would stand in the unusual, especially as this gun was not loaded and unused. hunter had a gun for 11 days, it was never used, never loaded. here's what he had to say. >> hunter had a gun for eleven days. it was never loaded. it was never used. there has never been a stand alone gun charge like this brought by this office ever and they decided that it made sense to do a diversion because of hunter's condition at the time, and now they're talking about changing that. what's changed? not the facts. and if people have paid attention, the only law that's changed has been a court of appeals in the federal system

that has called that statute unconstitutional. >> the other thing that's kind of unusual about this is the speed that we're already seen from the special counsel, david weiss, he wants to bring this to the end of the month, they could bring charges by september 29th, and they plan to get an indictment before that day. >> the republicans argue this is the result of david weiss being freed to do what he wants to do. do we have any indication that this is the result of that, he was somehow not able to do this before. >> all we know is in the plea deal there was a disagreement with whether or not that agreement from hunter bide's team, would keep david weiss from bringing more indictments, charges later. now he feels he leads needs to throw the kitchen sink in. it's not going to be a piecemeal approach. this case has surprised a lot of people. we thought this would be this plea deal this summer, and this case would go quiet for a while.

not going quietly into the night. we'll find out more information about the president's son. >> it's interesting. we're watching for the peter navarro decision for the jury. they're deliberating in his contempt of congress case. julie tsirkin, thank you for that. coming up in just a moment, we're going to go to wisconsin where voters there just elected this woman right here to the state supreme court, so why are republicans considering impeaching justice janet before she even hears a case. janet be she even hears a case. helping businesses both large and small, communities and the people who live and work there grow and thrive. we're proud to call these places home too. they're where we put down roots, and where together, we work to help move everyone's financial goals forward. pnc bank.

hi, i'm lauren, i lost 67 pounds in 12 months on golo. golo and the release has been phenomenal in my life. it's all natural. it's not something that gives you the jitters. it makes you go through your days with energy, and you're not tired anymore, and your anxiety, everything is gone. it's definitely worth trying. it is an amazing product. republican lawmakers in wisconsin are promise to go impeach an elected member of the supreme court. justice janet protasiewicz hasn't heard a case, saying she should not be allowed to rule on the state's congressional maps, maps that are drawn to

permanently protect republican control over the state house. joining us now, editor at large of the bulwark and an msnbc contributor, charlie sykes, she hasn't yet heard a case, what grounds are republicans using to say they want her out? >> the main grounds are they have the votes to do it. there's no corruption. there's no allegation of corruption. they're demanding that she recuse herself from the redistricting case because during the campaign, she said that wisconsin's gerrymandered districts were rigged. they have filed against her going nowhere and saying if she will not recuse her from the case, they will vote to remove her from the court. if they have enough votes in the state assembly, they can effectively remove her from being able to rule on that issue or any other issue facing the court, including wisconsin's 1849 abortion ban. >> there's some fundamental democratic issues here, like democracy-related issues here. the voters overwhelmingly

elected her to the supreme court. overwhelmingly, they had a candidate, the voters did not take him, that was daniel kelly, they said no to that guy. they voted for her knowing all of her positions. if the legislature says, hey, we got the votes, and they are basically permanently protected in their seats, what do you do if in wisconsin. >> well, this will ultimately have to be decided politically, but, you know, to your point, i mean, this is remarkable even by the partisan standards of wisconsin. an impeachment of the newly elected justice would essentially wipe out the votes of more than a million wisconsinites who voted for her. that race was not close. so, you know, i understand that, you know, robin vausse has a deep sense of entitlement but underestimating the blowback. what this will mean. state democrats have already announced a massive mobilization effort, they're about to launch

a $4 million ad campaign and the ads write themselves, you know, here you have republicans in the legislature simply ignoring the will of the voters, overturning an election on the filmiest flimsiest of details. it will largely center on some of these cultural issues including abortion. that's a nightmare scenario for republicans and there is an internal debate about whether they are so whetted to their gerrymander that they're willing to bring it down on their heads. not clear which way -- >> when you say bring this down on their head, there is another election. are we talking about the state supreme court where they might lose again and worried about their own seats if they go through with this? are they actually not in as strong a position in the state

legislature as they think they might be? >> well, right now, i mean, because wisconsin's districts are so gerrymandered, i think, this is off the top of my head, i think the republican candidates get something like 53% of the total vote but then they get 65 seats out of the 99-seat state assembly. what's at stake is the super majority. >> okay, that makes sense. these maps, though, they have to be decided on if it's a 3-3 state supreme court makeup. that means that it's deadlocked and if -- >> yes. >> when does this get resolved and is there a way where it leaves the state supreme court and goes to a federal court? how does that work? maybe i should be asking a lawyer this, charlie. >> no one knows. i bet you've been on the phone asking people this. you want to talk about a constitutional crisis. one of the twists here, if janet protasiewicz was removed, the

democratic governor toiers could appoint her successor the next day. if the state assembly votes to impeach her she's immediately suspended. the court becomes deadlocked at 3-3, and the republicans in the state senate have made it clear they don't intend to have an up-or-down vote on her. they don't intend to convict her or acquit her, which means she would be in limbo, so no one knows what would happen at that point. i mean, things are pretty dysfunctional to begin with, but we're about to go into a presidential election year in a key swing state with absolute chaos on the state supreme court. >> and you have a senate seat open. do you have a senate seat open in wisconsin? >> yes, tammy baldwin will be u. >> i'm so happy you were able to come on and explain how it's even more wild than i could have imagined. coming up n. ex-suspended

texas attorney general ken paxton, speaking of wild story, tips to sit out his impeachment trial. what message this sends to the state senators who are deciding on his future? scent of gain flings... time stops. ♪♪ ♪♪ your eyes close. you're in love... steve? ...with a laundry detergent. gain flings. seriously good scent. and 50% more fresh. now that's love at first sniff. ♪ (man) that looks really high. (woman) it is high. whenever you are ready. (man) are there any snakes? (woman) nope. (man) are you sure? here we go! (vo) it's time to push your limits. (man) okay. (woman) you're doing great!

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it is day three of the texas senate impeachment trial of suspended attorney general ken paxton. there are more than 100 witnesses who have been subpoenaed. so far two have testified telling the state senate that paxton's actions and relationship with donor nail paul were so alarming that some of his former loyalists went to the fbi. >> i mean i really wanted him to come clean. i even said, are you under undue influence, sir? and. >> and he said no. >> he is did say so. >> it was bizarre. >> why was it bizarre? >> he was acting like a man with a gun to his head. >> in what way? >> anxious, desperate, urging me to get this out as quickly as

humanly possible. >> paxton has not shown up for his trial since he pleaded not guilty to 20 articles of impeachment and it's unclear if he will. but his wife is there, angela paxton, a state senator herself though she will not be allowed to vote on whether to convict. joining us now is digital anchor with our kxan affiliate in austin, will dupree. will, good to be with you. tell us about what we heard today and what's your sense of how things are going down there? >> yeah, just a few moments ago the third witness called during the trial took the stand. a slow-going process, however, you mentioned that second witness, a man named ryan bangert and concluded a few minutes ago. he shared he used to hold this top position at texas attorney general's office, and during the course of a few months back in 2020, he kept raising concerns that the attorney general, ken

paxton, was doing things on behalf of that austin real estate developer nate paul and what this led to eventually is that bangert and several other top aides within the attorney general's office got together and went to the fbi to report this alleged misconduct that they say they witnessed, and we have a bit of ryan bangert's testimony from earlier today, so let's take a listen to that. >> this deeply concerned that the name and authority and power of our office had been in my view hijacked to serve the interests of an individual against the interests of the broader public. >> and the fact that he had invoked the use of a grand jury to try to help mr. paul in his investigation, what level of concern and why was that a bother to you? >> it was unconscionable. i went to the fbi, because i

believed based on my experience over the previous nine months that the attorney general had abandoned his obligation to work on behalf of the interests of the people of texas to serve the interests of one person, nate paul. >> and, again, that is ryan bangert we are hearing from ryan vassar and what he was a part of was writing this legal opinion that paxton allegedly helped to influence about foreclosure sales during the summer of covid-19 back in 2020. this is alleged to have benefited nate paul because he was having some foreclosure sales coming up the following week, so, again, we're monitoring this ongoing testimony. we're only three witnesses in. three days in, as well. >> lots of witnesses to go, again, it was a republican house that impeached him.

it is a republican senate that will decide whether to convict him. will dupree of kxan, thank you. that will do it for me today. a wild day, a witching hour of news as usual. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. we start today with moves by fulton county district attorney fani willis to counter threats to her case stemming from the halls of capitol hill to the darkest corners of the internet. all because her probe involves a co-defendant unlike any other in american history. the first in a court filing wednesday d.a. willis asked the judge presiding over the trial to shield the identities of prospective jurors in her sprawling and comprehensive racketeering case that indicted 19 people including donald trump in the plot to overturn the 2020 election. the