it is a republican senate that will decide whether to convict him. will dupree of kxan, thank you. that will do it for me today. a wild day, a witching hour of news as usual. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. we start today with moves by fulton county district attorney fani willis to counter threats to her case stemming from the halls of capitol hill to the darkest corners of the internet. all because her probe involves a co-defendant unlike any other in american history. the first in a court filing wednesday d.a. willis asked the judge presiding over the trial to shield the identities of prospective jurors in her sprawling and comprehensive racketeering case that indicted 19 people including donald trump in the plot to overturn the 2020 election. the "atlanta

journal-constitution" reports this, quote, willis asked judge mcafee to prohibit defendant, the news media, or, quote, any other person from capturing any sort of image from a photo to a drawing of jurors or from distributing any identifying information about them. prosecutors write in this filing, quote, the effects of the widespread national and international media coverage on individuals associated with this case is real and substantial. they point out that the identities of grand juiers -- jurors were revealeden -- online. members of the fulton county district attorney's office including the district attorney herself and members of her family have been dox'd. it includes the district attorney's name, her family

members' names, ages with dates of birth, home physical addresses, phone number, gps coordinate, places of employment, work physical address, email addresses, and social media accounts. the personal information was intertwined with derogatory and racist remarks. d.a. willis adds that she tried to get the information taken down, but the department of homeland security determined that it could not because the material was hosted on a russian website. that brings us to the second move today by willis this afternoon. the d.a. rebuffed house judiciary committee chairman jim jordan's request for documents, part of his attempt to investigate fani willis in a scathing letter, willis says jordan lacks a basic understanding of the law. it reads in part, chairman jordan, i tell people often, deal with reality or reality will deal with you. it is time that you deal with some basic realities. a special purpose grand jury

made up of everyday citizens investigated for ten months and made recommendations to me. a further reality is that a grand jury of completely different fulton county citizens found probable cause against the defendants named in the indictment for rico violations and various other felonies. face this reality, chairman jordan, the select group of defendants who you fret over in my jurisdiction are like every other defendant, entitled to no worse or better treatment than any other american citizen. fani willis taking steps to protect her criminal case into the trump coup plot is where we begin with some of our favorites. former acting solicitor general neil katyal is here and task figluizzi is here and with me at the table for the hour basil smikle, director of the public

policy college at hunter college. we're at the shocking but not surprising that it is a russian source, a russian website doxxing fani willis viewed as a legal adversary of the ex-president's. what can be done, if anything, about that? >> well, first of all, i think fani willis is taking the necessary steps here and we can get to that in a second but let's remember, you may recall that this is the first time we've seen the russian entities host more than questionable sites and threats and doxxing endeavors. the app or platform known as parlor after it was booted off of american servers and platforms after it was discovered that january 6th insurrectionists were all over parlor plotting and talking about what they were going to do, parlor found refuge in

russia. so not the first time. there's example after example of this. now, what can you do about it? that pretty much stops. the wall -- you hit that wall if you're the fbi or u.s. intelligence trying to trace this back. the russians are not helpful, in fact, they're all in on it at best with a wink and a nod to whoever in their citizenry is doing this but more even common is to see government affiliation, not much happens in russia of this nature without some acquiescence about the russian government, sometimes even it is the russian government with some arm's length plausible deniability. what fani willis is doing is calling it out publicly in this filing and saying, look, mr. trump, i see what you're doing. i see you. you refuse to call out violence and silent threats inciting these people. that's part of your game is to make it -- make people afraid to be selected for a jury, a jury pool and i'm sure she's anticipating potential juror after potential juror saying

during voir dire i'm concerned, i don't want to be here. i'm scared and she's countering this, it's a checkmate. it's a chess move but it's also very real. the threat is real, as removed as russia might seem if they're hosting this it doesn't mean that the bad actors are over there. it means they're here and they've got gps coordinates on where she is and where her family members are and they can do it to jurors as well and that's what she's trying to protect on a micro level, on a macro level. she's trying to protect our criminal justice system. >> frank, what assets can she bring to bear to stay as you've sort of educated us left of boom on the threat of violence that are made on the internet? >> so, my understanding is the fbi's joint terrorism task force out of atlanta is fully engaged with this and the fbi has, you know, unusual for them to come out with this little statement a few weeks ago saying, hey, we're aware of the threats going on.

that's a signal to me that they're in this, right, and they're supporting and they're helping, but, listen, you know, they can't be everywhere at all times and fulton county sheriff, fulton county police department, georgia bureau of investigation, i'm sure they're all going to weigh in on this and do what they can, but they also can't stop the atmosphere from taking ahold here which is exactly what trump and his cohorts want to do, instill fear in everyone in this process. so you'll see stepped up arrests and what is often called knock and talks increase. people will get knocks on doors. what's this threat about? don't even think about it. we have you under investigation. you're already predicated. they did this before january 6th, by the way. look at that and go, wow, they stopped really bad actors getting to washington on january 6th for knock and talks, predicated subjects but yet we nearly lost our democracy on january 6th, so it's good news/bad news, they can't be

everywhere at once. >> neal, let me read more, based on the docking of fulton county grand jurors and fulton county district attorney it is clearly foreseeable that trial jurors will likely be doxxed should their names be made available to the public. should that happen, without outside influence would undoubtedly be placed in jeopardy. both placing them in physical danger and materially affecting all the defendants' constitutional right to fair and impartial juries. we've seen the impact on people's lives when they're targeted by allies of donald trump. shaye moss and ruby freeman are still putting the pieces back together from being targeted, smeared, identified and hunted in their homes is what they described in their sworn testimony before congress. how are we back here again where donald trump has now successfully chilled the

environment and the location and the venue where he is to stand trial for his role in a criminal enterprise? >> yeah, we're back here, nicolle, because of one person, donald trump. and donald trump knows that his chances in court aren't looking great and so i think district attorney willis did exactly the right thing here, nicolle. she's right to say if given the chance trump is going to lash out at the people we're tasked with deciding his fate and try to poison through this. the reality of the situation is trump about as desperate as they come and, you know, to me like there's two questions here. one is kind of legally what is the effect of this poison of the jury pool. the other is, remember, this guy is trying to run for our highest office and, you know, whether -- the inaction that he's done both here on january 6th with ruby

freeman when there are all these threats and knows there are threats and he could easily call out to his people and say, don't do this, i don't want you to engage in acts of violence, but he stays silent at best, if not actively winking and nodding, and to me, you know, if you or i were accused of violence and our supporters were going out and doing these things, of course, the first thing we would do is say, don't do that but he doesn't. and so that's not strictly speaking a crime but it is in my mind as disqualifying for holding office as anything about the 14th amendment section 3 or significant like that. this is not someone to be trusted with any sort of power or leadership whatsoever. now, in terms of what the judge can do, there are a variety of things the judge can do as a result of this, one is to block the jury identities from being shown provided or shown the images on camera because this trial will be televised.

juror images do not have to be, indeed, that's what happened in the george floyd murder. the camera never showed the juror. >> neal katyal has frozen. the gremlins from burning man have got him. he's back. keep going. >> sorry. but i think that the judge has a variety of means, nicolle, to try and protect juror identity and that's important because we've already seen the doxxing of the grand jurors at the investigative stage of this case. >> neal, what happens if a mafia defendant's family or allies doxes the jury members in a mafia trial? >> yeah, so, there's an investigation to see whether the defendant himself is behind it. if so, obviously that's going to give rise to further obstruction charges and the like and then

the prosecutors can go after anyone who is trying to interfere with the trial. that is separately called obstruction of justice and can be tried as such. >> neal, let me bring back to -- you heard the role russia is playing in doing some of trump's dirty work again. this is from an affidavit from the atlanta police chief darren shrybaum. a website where the grand jurors returned an indictment against donald trump and the fulton county district attorney is operated by a russian company. they openly state on the website that the reason they are doxxing fulton county district attorney general and grand jury is due to the diemth of donald trump. they have refused to remove doxxing information and the federal government has been unsuccessful in getting it removed thus the doxxing of the district attorney and jurors are

permanent. is that really it? i mean, are there not levers that can be pulled at the department of justice or the cia or state department to say to as frank said, the russian government or -- i mean, is that it? we have to live with the fact that russia will permanent endanger individual citizens of this country? >> so, i mean, i think unfortunately the answer is technologically, nicolle, yes, it's very difficult if the material is hosted abroad for us to do much. what we can do to say to anyone who acts on that information you will be prosecuted, as frank said you will get knocks on the door. we are watching you and the like and that's why it's so important to have a nonpoliticized justice department and a nonpoliticized fbi. >> it is amazing, basil, that we are here september 2023 covering another story about a russian entity aiding donald trump,

doing the dirtiest of his dirty work. >> that's exactly right, and it's amazing to me that we can't find a way to get this information off the website. if there's a battle between a cable company and a network, i don't get to watch tern tv channels. >> i don't get espn. >> but you can't take this information off the internet somehow? i understand there might be technological issues but to the average person that just seems a little weird given that -- given the fact that russia is supposed to be an enemy, so to speak. russia is not a good actor and we know there are russian actors having trying to influence elections and continuing to try to influence votes. so why is it that we haven't been able to step up and do this? i do want to go back to the fani willis letter because it does -- it is important, as you said, to sort of zero in on ruby freeman. to center it around a real person so you know this is not a hypothetical exercise but this is happening and has happened to people which is why we're in this situation in the first

place but going to the glass, sorry about that but she says -- >> i feel you. >> she in the letter says to jordan your letter makes clear you lack a basic understanding of the law, its practice and the ethical obligations of attorneys general and prosecutors and goes on to say that you're not a member of the bar, so pay about $250 and we can school you on what a rico act actually is and does. and that to me is incredibly important because it says that with all of congress' power, they actually do lack the power and jurisdiction and qualifications to go after her in the way that they're doing. >> but it doesn't stop them and i guess, you know, glenn thrush of "the new york times" reminded us some reporting in "the times." from jordan's perch he's had success and reached deep in the department of justice and helped blow up hunter biden's plea deal and now there's a special counsel appointed and ron desantis bragging about firing

prosecutors and in wisconsin threats to fire a duly elected supreme court justice. i mean, i agree with you, he lacks the authority but it doesn't stop them. now what do we do? >> another quick point for a party that focuses so much on states' rights, here's another example of how they use states right with a racial undertone to go after a fani willis or anybody else for that matter or to not just go avids, also policies within those states, so it does not stop. it cannot -- i mean, it can stop if you elect these people out of office. but until we get to that point, i do think it's important for like-minded individuals and have this platform to be able to say this is what's coming down the pike. this is how you should recognize these situations when they occur and to have district attorneys like district attorney willis and others push back on paper in writing and on the record to say that you are overstepping your bounds, and then mobilize around that issue. >> frank, what will -- i mean,

this trial could be had in october, d.a. fani willis has said she's ready. it could be further off in the horizon. how do you protect everyone involved in a trial like this for the duration of the legal process? >> yeah, you are talking about a protracted period of very high threat level for fulton county officials, and then, of course, it's not over just in fulton county. the threat moves to d.c. and to florida. as the federal trials begin to take place, so, look, it's all hands on deck. but i want to remind folks that you can only mitigate threat and risk. you cannot eliminate threat and risk. local law enforcement's joined at the hip with the federal and state law enforcement. it's really a national intelligence collection effort. we can't think that the threat is going to just come from georgia, of course, not. we see in the election worker threat cases, we're seeing

people in other states threatening people, election workers in states they don't even live in. so it's a nationwide problem that really fbi and dhs have got to coalesce local and state government around and train them up. the problem is we talked about we do have sheriffs around the country in certain places elected sheriffs who won't do it. they won't interfere with people because they think they're interfering with free speech or on the wrong side of the political aisle or simply want to get elected sheriff next year so that's a problem and it's a weak link but i do think you'll see very public arrests, well predicated, absolutely prosecutable charges but i hope we see valid threats addressed with very loud arrests and even press conferences that say, when you do this, this is what happens to you here in fulton county. whether you're in ohio or nebraska we'll extradite you here and handle it here.

that needs to be done early on if criminally valid threats occur so that the message is sent. >> i don't think anyone will mind. i'll give the last word to judge esther solis put a human face on the fact that we're talking about real people's front doors and real people's kids and families. i'm going to play this and we'll sneak in a quick break and be back with breaking news. >> when we now no longer tolerate or have a stomach for it or want to feed into it, that is the way we start grass roots, grass roots. i can tell you in my little circle how i've changed, you know, the way i talk to people, the way people talk to me and i try every day to remember that, you know, what i want to do is be an instrument of change, of positive change, how can i make this place, this world a better

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consequences today for someone so blatant in his effort to stonewall congress in their efforts to investigate the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. former trump aide peter navarro has been found guilty of two counts of contempt of congress after failing to comply with a subpoena from the january 6th

select committee requesting documents and testimony. navarro rebuffed the committee even as he was seemingly to talk to anyone who was willing to listen to him about the 020 election and his personal extreme efforts to keep trump in office. as "the daily beast" puts it, he wrote a book about it and laid out the plan to interrupt kong on right wing blowhard steve bannon's daily podcast. he even lamented its failure while directly immr. i indicating trump and others in an interview with "the daily beast." he faces fines of up to $2,000. back with the group and, neal, again, not super surprising but still shocking state of affairs for an ex-white house senior official. >> yeah, peter navarro is the second, nicolle, of what will likely be many trump top

officials getting felony convictions and this was a lightning fast trial. jury selection was 48 hours ago and he's already been convicted. if peter navarro didn't put up a defense because he quite literally didn't have one and this was about as open and shut a case as you get. basically his lawyer stan woodward, the same guy as in the mar-a-lago taveras debacle that we can talk about but stan's defense was basically, hey, the government didn't say exactly where people navarro was on the day he was supposed to provide testimony to congress which was absolutely relevant. he was being prosecuted because he didn't provide the testimony to congress and the other defense was, navarro was basing his refusal to testify on executive privilege, but they could never produce anything saying donald trump was invoking executive privilege. the supreme court had already rejected that claim of executive privilege 8-1 and most

importantly as you pointed out a moment ago peter navarro himself wrote a book about all of this. he appeared on ari's show, a bunch of other things talking about all this so the idea you can invoke executive privilege was just nonsense. this was an open and shut case. not surprising that he's been convicted. the only surprising thing is how this guy could have been anywhere near a position of power in the united states government. >> frank figluizzi, you can -- the jokes almost roll off your tongue making felons great again, all the best people but the truth is, this is part of the brand, right, on which trump is running for re-election. what damage does that do to the rule of law and people's sense of its importance? >> here's where the brand is running up right against the rule of law and kind of fascinating to see as neal referenced. this won't be the last time. you can almost hear the wheels on the bus that navarro was just tossed under by donald trump.

he wanted to claim executive privilege. there's no evidence of it and trump certainly didn't step up and say, i've got your back and come up with something. it didn't happen. it's not going to happen for most of these defendants in these cases and there's some lightbulbs going on right now. they should be spotlights going on right now because, yes, trump's brand is, indeed, to counter everything we know about justice and the criminal process and the rule of law and our constitution and how you're supposed to show up for subpoenas. he wants to do away with all of that and be a king. but here comes the justice process slowly but surely with staffed with american citizens, our neighbors who serve on a jury who thought about this for four hour, i'm surprised it took four hours, because as neal said, the case consisted of peter navarro saying, yeah, i didn't show up because i didn't want to? that took four hours.

he'll go away and pay a hefty fine or both. this will keep happening. trump will continue to battle the system. people will continue to fall down for him and go away for him and lose their bank accounts for him and at some point people are going to say they've had enough. >> you know, trump chose not to pardon his senior white house staff. they could have left with pardons. trump could have pardoned mark meadows. trump could have pardoned rudy giuliani. trump could have pardoned peter navarro and he didn't. and i don't know whether he's actually an idiot but these people act like arrogant idiots who think, down the line i'll get a pardon. trump already passed on an opportunity to pardon all of them. >> too cavalier, too strident. whatever you want to call it. that is who they have shown themselves to be in the face of a man whose brand is it is about me every day all day. we all knew that. they may have known it but they

chose to ignore it. and i think and i hope that frank and neal are correct, this portends to more to come, that top tier conspirator in this because we've seen proud boys get 17, 22 years and there was always this notion that the folks on the ground doing the dirty work, yes, the trump sort of elite would never touch them. >> the management. this seems to me coup plotter. >> they wouldn't go near it but would any of that top tier be held accountable? i hope this is the first domino to fall of many. but this is, i think, what a lot of voters are looking at. are these folks going to be -- going to get away scot-free or the beginning of a larger sort of round of accountability we're going to see. >> all right, we'll stay on it. neal katyal, we'll talk about burning man next time, frank figluizzi, thank you for sticking around and basil, stick around a little longer. switching gears entirely, it

is back to school season. if you're a parent or grandparent or teacher or kid or caregiver you've been thinking about everything that goes with back to school, right? new clothes, new books, new supplies. you may have also thought about that pit in your stomach, right? new active shooter drills. they continue to be -- shootings continue to be the leading cause of death among children and teens in the united states of america. we will show you a provocative new video from a group that hopes to make sure folks in washington haven't forgotten this part of the back-to-school season. you should get a second opinion from innovation refunds at no upfront cost. sometimes you need a second opinion. all these walls gotta go! ah ah ah! i'd love a second opinion. take the first step to see if your small business qualifies. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill.

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or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. there is a haunting new video out today that importantly and in a way that really hits home for a lot of parents and kids and people who love parents and kids highlights the reality of back-to-school season in america. the tragic growing crisis of gun violence that students across our country face over and over and over again when they're back in school. the video is from the nonpartisan, their future pac which aims to be a voice in washington, d.c. for children and to help elect leaders who support stronger gun safety legislation. a warning before we show some of it to you, it is dark, it is ominous and comes with its own viewer discretion warning but it was made the pac says, quote,

purposefully provocative so that we, specifically leaders in washington, d.c., don't ever become desensitized to gun violence and fears of gun violence which is according to the cdc today the leading cause of death for children and teens in america. watch. ♪♪

turning our conversation is dr. annie andrew, a pediatrician and founder and ceo of their future, our vote, also a mom. this is her first interview and the group's new video was released today and joined by one of the newest members of congress working to represent and lift voices in being silenced our good friend congresswoman jasmine crockett of texas and basil is still with us. dr. annie, first, let me just say, i watched this ad, it was sent to me by our mutual friend fred guttenberg and watched it on the street after drop-off the first day of school and gasped

so audibly that people around me turned and asked if i was okay. it is tragic that it is necessary but i do agree that it is. take me through the strategy behind the message. >> like you, i'm a mom of three school-aged children and also a pediatrician and gun violence prevention researcher and helping to address this for a long time. something has to change and we knew as an organization at their future pac that we had to do something that would break through the noise and would get the attention of the people whose attention we need to get, lawmakers in washington, d.c. who are weak and lack the moral courage to address this problem and voters. i ran for congress in 2022 and i met so many moderate white suburban women who are fed up with thinking about their children being shot in the classroom. we have to reach across the

aisle, get those folks to understand that they need to channel the fear and the rage that they feel whenever they hear about their children's active shooter drills or they hear about yet another school shooting, they need to channel that rage into action and that means voting out the politicians who refuse to address this problem. >> the effort to engage the country around gun safety as a public health issue and the data that is undeniable that gun violence is the leading cause of death of children and teens feels like an opportunity to sort of shake the kaleidoscope and change the conversation from this loggerhead, but i always like to remind folks that the public isn't particularly divided on gun safety legislation. 85% of all americans support some of the things that are being prochiloed and let me read the agenda. the kids first gun violence

prevention plan includes ab assault weapons ban supported by a majority of american, universal background check, i think that's upward of 80% support from the public, secure storage laws, that's even higher, red flag laws, up ward of 80% of all americans support those. increase funding for hospital and community violence intervention programs. wide, wide majorities of americans support that. what is the impediment to passing the entirety of the kids first majority agenda? >> it's republican lawmakers who are bought and paid for by the nra and the firearms industry. i think we learned from tennessee that we cannot continue to try to have earnest conversations with republican lawmakers at the federal or the state level. that is not going to get us there. we have to vote them out. if they understand that they will be voted out, if they don't get in line with the majority of americans on this issue, then they will come to the right side of this issue.

so we have to address this at the ballot box. if we can elect a kids first majority to congress which is our goal as an organization, we can pass these laws that so many, the majority of americans want. and we can finally start to address this problem in a comprehensive meaningful way. >> congresswoman crockett, there are things that divide americans, guns, abortion and democracy are not among them. why isn't every sentence those three words, those three issues and the powerful reality that only one party in this country stands with the vast majority of americans. >> yeah, first of all, let me just applaud the efforts. this is amazing. this is necessary. and i look forward to working very closely with y'all to make sure that we get some amazing help in congress. you know, every opportunity that the democrats get, we're talking about gun safety, every time they want to waste taxpayer

dollars chasing some random rabbit and not doing what they said they were going to do, which are the basic things like working on safety issues, working on the economy and instead they decided they want to go and do something that seemingly may earn them more support from the twice impeached 91-count felonious ex-president, right, we decide to always redirect to the issues and you know what's interesting is that we continually bring up this fact that the number one killer of children in this country right now is gun violence. and do you know what the retort typically is, something you would never guess. they say, that's not true because obviously we don't believe in fact, data and science. at least when it comes to that side of the aisle, they say the number one killer of children is abortion. that is what they do. they never address what we're talking about and then they talk about, well, mental health. well, guess what, the democrats

in a very courageous way tried to do something last session and they made sure they made the investments when it came down to mental health. but i'll going to be honest with you, it is just patently false to act as if every single one of these issues is because of mental health issues. and beyond the fact that the republicans fail to do anything that is helpful, the biggest issue that i have is that they are continuing to perpetuate the hate that stokes these types of events. instead of helping, they are contributing to the harm that we see taking place in our schools and beyond. >> basil, democrats have been working on mental health parity coverage from a health insurance perspective since the '90s. republicans doing nothing on this, red flag with 60% to 90% of all americans and doesn't divide republicans, certainly not republican women, you know,

is ludicrous. but they do succeed in making it look like a teeter-totter. these are not teeter-totter issues. these are vast, vast majority issues for most americans. >> that's right and the more we deal with this, the more they hit home for more americans. when -- there was an active shooter at the campus of unc, one of my childhood friends was sending his daughter there for the first day of school and i had to reach out to make sure they were okay. >> i had a friend who's daughter was on lockdown last year. everyone has been touched. >> i look at this, the stats between politics and policy, always this window where we have an opportunity to act. and one of my students said yesterday with respect to gun violence, that opportunity and that window has been closing more and more quickly over each successive incident which suggests that we are becoming

more and more desensitized to this. it is becoming more and more normal. when i think about that it's not that we're having conversations about gun control. i got to go get a gun too. that's what is so scary to me at this juncture. it's an arms race i didn't think i will see. i grew up with nuclear war as the arms race, now it's in our streets and communities and what i worry about is as it becomes normalized and we become more desensitized to it. if that happens it's these young people in schools, young people that are in schools with fewer and fewer school counselors to be able to help them walk through this and get an understanding of what they're facing and experiencing which is why i always go back to parkland because look at those young people that had civic, right, and understood how to mobilize. they were to to do that immediately because of the opportunities, the culture and resources they had in their school. i worry about the schools in my community and the other communities that may not have that. so it's an issue not just for

the adults to actually legislate what's right, but entire systems across our country particularly at the local level. we need to be able to equip young people with the tools to handle this. >> i have to sneak in a break but want to ask all of you if there isn't a piece of this that's so universal it's getting missed. no one is going anywhere. i'll be right back. ♪ ♪

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andrews, congresswoman jasmine and basil smikle. people who think about this all day every day, you are all usually the most optimistic. my friend fred guttenberg who i mentioned. do you believe there will be a tectonic shift that the people we send to washington will change and the agenda may not easily pass but will get through? >> yes, as the mother of three, i have no choice but to be optimistic but we have some really objective reasons to be optimistic as well, just last congress we passed the bipartisan safer communities act with really record republican support and that was the first piece of federal gun safety legislation to pass in decades. there was a huge moment for this movement. we are all still waiting for that big watershed moment in washington, d.c. when we do get universal background checks and

an assault weapons ban but it will happen because there is an army of grassroots advocates across the country who cake up like me every day and fight on this issue and if we don't get this right, i promise you that the young people coming behind me will. because they are the lockdown generation and they know that they deserve better. that they deserve better. >> congresswoman, matt dowd of texas says demographics are destiny, and that the rising sort of folks entering voting and becoming politically active have all grown up participating in active shooter drills since they were in preschool. there is an entire generation of americans that has never been a part of american civic life, that has never led businesses, has never run for office, and they're all entering into sort of the system, the political system with this experience and this muscle memory that we've never had before. do you feel optimistic that that

new generation will make these things, again, not easy, but will change the conversation and maybe change some of the rigid part tanship and the grip that the gun lobby has on republicans? >> oh, absolutely. the new generation definitely gives me hope. it's the current generation. >> have to deal with. >> that i have a problem with. and as we continue to talk about the age of congress, we know that it's a little elderly. but we ended up with amazing people like my classmate maxwell frost. this is where maxwell was born out of. he was born out of this movement. and i think that we're going to see more of that. we're going to see people that are concerned about the future, because they recognize that they have more than 10 or 20 years to live, unlike some of the people in congress. so they care about climate. they care about guns, and they want to actually make change. so i do see that that is on the horizon. i also think that there is the

potential of raise the age. i know that we talked about some of the other provisions for whatever reason became partisan issue. but we saw in the state of texas before i swore in, they decided to raise the age on who could purchase a cigarette because they said 18-year-olds were not mature enough. we saw there was a little movement in the texas house on raise the age. i actually think there is an opportunity in the near future to get somewhere on raise the age. especially as we see a lot of these shooters, these school shooters specifically. they tend to be a little bit younger. i do think there is an immediate opportunity maybe for that. but for very much else with this current generation, i am not the most optimistic. but that's why we have folk like y'all to hold us accountable, and hopefully get some people that really understand the urgency of it. >> congresswoman jasmine crockett always keeps it real. basel schmeichel, you too.

thank you so much for sharing this video and message with us. we're very grateful to have you here and have this conversation. thank you so much. >> thank you. up next for us, an intriguing new development in the jack smith trump coup case. we'll tell you about it next. don't go anywhere. ...in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) with verizon business, we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) so our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) it's not just a network. it's enterprise intelligence. (vo) learn more. it's your vision, it's your verizon.

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efforts to overturn his 2020 election defeat, they're meeting today. this is the first time nbc news has spotted members of that grand jury at the courthouse since trump's indictment by the special counsel in early august. it is the latest indication that jack smith's criminal investigation into the trump coup plot is very much ongoing. as we reported on this program in recent weeks, smith has been focused on fundraising by the trump campaign and allies of trumps over bogus voter fraud machines as well as voting machine breaches by trump allies in several states. we'll keep our eyes on that, watch that space. up next for us, a unique group coming together about the need to sound the alarm bells about the need to protect our democracy. don't go anywhere. the first fdad at-home skin tag remover clinically proven to remove skin tags safely in as little as one treatment. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean-

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of the republican party these days, it is the flagrant disregard for america's democracy, the foundation of which is of course democratic, free, and fair elections for the people, by the people. the latest in that regard on a tv show that he hosts, former republican governor, republican mike huckabee basically accused president joe biden of trying to weaponize prosecutions against donald trump. he topped it off by telling his audience this, quote, if these tactics end up working to keep trump from winning or even running in 2024, it is going to be the last american election that will be decided by ballots rather than bullets. it is of course an abhorrent thing to say or think or broadcast. it's the kind of violent rhetoric and threat that should have no place in american politics. but of course it comes now from a party whose leader is facing more than 90 combined felony charges and seems to like rhetoric like that.

it is of course the same person who tried to stage a coup at the capitol on january 6th to overturn the results of an elect he lost. and he told his supporters more recently to reelect him because, quote, i am your retribution. this kind of anti-democratic threat is now par for the course in republican party. but it should never, ever become normal to any of us. it is of course the same party that after losing a supreme court seat in wisconsin to a democrat is now considering impeaching her before she's heard a single case rather than letting her serve and letting her represent the people who sent her there. it is the same republican party that instead of having donald trump defend himself in a court of law in georgia, have a jury of his peers decide his fate, would rather remove the prosecutor who dared to bring charges. it is the same republican party that all across america is trying to make voting the act of voting more difficult, while at

the very same time aggressively gerrymandering itself into permanent legislative majorities. it is this kind of behavior and discourse that appears to have prompted a coalition of presidential centers representing both republican and democratic former presidents from herbert hoover to barack obama to issue a clarion call to stand up and protect democracy here, now. "new york times" says, quote, the statement is largely an o diana in its prose but some of its wording and its timing appear to serve as a subtle rebeauty to former president donald j. trump. quote, each of us has a role to play and responsibilities to uphold the statements. our elected officials must lead by example and govern effectively in ways that lead

the american people. the rest of us must engage in civil dialogue, respect democratic institutions and rights, uphold safe, secure, and accessible elections, and contribute to local state or national improvement. wow. that is where we start the hour, some of our favorite experts and friends. the director of the democracy program david carroll joins us. he plays a key role in the center's work to build consensus on international standards for democratic elections, and he spearheaded the center's work on elections in the united states. also joining us, former acting assistant attorney general for national security at the u.s. department of justice, mary mccord is back. and with me at the table former top state department official during the obama administration, msnbc political analyst rick stengel. it's an honor to be here with all of you. david, if you could just tell me where this statement originated and why the centers thought it was necessary. >> thank you, nicole.

it's a pleasure to be here. this something that we've been working on with the presidential centers for probably a couple months now. the bush center took the initiative and reached out to all of us at the presidential center and it resonated with us as something we should do. we're looked at for leadership on these issues around the country. i think we're respected, and we represent both parties and cross-parties and interests. and it's a reflection of both the current context in the united states, but frankly, also globally. >> if you were as a group of presidential centers, david, examining these moves in another country, would it be easy to be more frank what you're seeing? the refusal to accept the results of a free and fair election deemed the, quote, most secure in america's history by life-long republican overseeing election cyber security,

physical attack on the seat of government at the u.s. capitol, if you were seeing those things in another country, do you think the centers would have been faster and more aggressive in their statement? >> i think, you know, the centers weren't really trying to focus on a very particular individual challenge or instance, and we wouldn't normally be acting together on a context internationally. i think, really, this is simple. it comes down to a sense that we share a common concern about the state of democracy and politics in this country. and, again, it's symptomatic of things that are happening all over the world. and it's not -- it's not about the presidential elections in the carter center, in the united states. it's about the context more generally and the challenges that we face and the importance that focusing on those really deep common principles that we share and trying to focus on

those is a way to bring us back to a better place in this country. >> what is the diagnosis at the center's make then for the threat to america's democracy? >> i think it's really about the need for us to find those common principles of respect and civility and dialogue, engagement, and talking about real facts, real information, and ensuring that we're really trying to reach out to one another and engage one another and to do so from a perspective that acknowledges that we had differences and that it's important if we're going to get through this challenging period in our country and this moment in history. we need to do that earnestly and with respect for one another and based on shared -- >> was there a tipping point that initiated the rare joint statement -- is this the first

joint statement from all of the centers? >> i believe it is. i'm not 100% sure. i don't think there is any single tipping point. again, it's a reflection of where the country is and actually, frankly, where the world is, the challenges to democracy around the world are serious. and that we believe we can speak from a perspective that has some respect across the country and perhaps across the world. the presidential centers from both parties can really point us in the direction of our common values and common principles to help point us toward a path that's going to be a better way for our country and our population to work through our differences. >> you mentioned real facts. do the centers have a concern about disinformation in the political ecosystem? >> it's a global concern. this is happening around the world. we observe elections routinely in the carter center and other

organizations, and the constant challenge of getting people to know that there's actual facts, there is a common basis of reality, and that if we can try to engage one another on that and try to find ways to arrive at common understandings, we'll be in a much better place. >> david, because it's an unprecedented joint statement from all of the presidential centers, i think there is a tendency to view it as a sign that you're all worried. i keep thinking of whoopi goldberg in ghost, you're in danger. there is a feeling that it is good that you're all united in this call, but it must be really, really bad out here if you all came together to do that. what's your reaction to that? >> i think it's accurate. but the point is not so much that it's today. this is something that is responsive to a series of

concerns and threats that have been present and growing for years and years, and not just in this country, but globally. >> mary mccord, i got all the movies in my brain today. there is a scene in the american president where michael j. fox is imploring the president to talk about his personal life in a more forthcoming way. he says people are so hungry for leadership that they'll crawl through the desert toward the mirage. and when they realize it's a mirage, they'll eat the sand. i think people are so desperate for an arbiter as the status of american, i've asked others who is going to be the person who scores our democracy, who issues our scorecard about the health of our respect for the rule of law, the rise in political violence, the dependence and reliance on disinformation, the

lack of social media company, american-based, american-staffed to do anything about hate on their platforms. and it's been -- i don't know. we'll see who stands up. this feels like a sign that at least the ex-presidents are watching carefully. and i wonder what you think the impact an the import is of this joint statement. >> well, i think for a lot of the reasons you just indicated, nicolle, this is the kind of leadership that i've been wanting to see, and i hope we'll see more of it. to look back on all of these centers throughout modern history coming together across political divides, there is no doubt in my mind that people working at these centers don't always agree with the other -- with the positions of those working in other centers on matters of policy. but what they agree is when we're going to talk about matters of policy we need to be able to do so civilly and respectfully and not in ways that undermine our democratic

process. not in ways that suggest either explicitly or implicitly violence, like mike huckabee's statement did. and i think it's really telling that in this joint statement, even though i understand it wasn't about no tipping point here, but it talks about the fact that our -- the united states' position supporting democracies around the world, supporting human rights is undermined when others see our own house in disarray. that is the center's saying our house is in disarray. and they're right. and it is. and they then in the very next paragraph call upon elected leaders, the paragraph you read in your opening, to take a stand here and speak out. and that is one of the things you and i and others have been talking about for the last couple of years that we're not seeing. instead, we're seeing elected leaders actually stoke the

partisan divide, pander to what they think is partisan divide and what they think the base that guess they think they need to get re-elected. but i do think this is another situation where the minority of the population, because they are so vocal, because they are active on social media, because they spread disinformation and rhetoric, they have an outsized influence on our politics. and that is what causes some elected leaders to want to pander to that base, to that -- to the really in some ways extremists. but i think most americans really are looking for leadership. and if people step forward, and this is an important first step, you know, that will fill some of that void that you just indicated. but it needs to be a lot more than these centers. still, i applaud. i applaud the george w. bush center for having the idea and bringing all of these centers together and getting this statement out there. >> let me read to you, rick

stengel, some of the "new york times" coverage of the joint statement. this is from our friend nick who covers all of the policy bucket of things that have emanated from the big lie, among other things. quote, some of the language in the statement could easily be read as warnings about mr. trump. the coalition says that, quote, civility and respect in police discourse are essential, a contrast for a politician known for demeaning nicknames and occasionally violent messaging. other ideals expressed in the statement such as the sense of global responsibility also seem targeted more toward the republican base, voters who are more energized by america first messaging. not for nothing, this is a week that has been bookmarked by the story. or bookended by the story that we led with about russian company housing personal private

information and do x'ing fani willis and the grand jurors who handed down the indictment against donald trump, and starting with the meeting between two of america's most dangerous hostile advocacy, kim jong-un and vladimir putin, who have the extraordinary distinction of being the most often celebrated and praised world figures by the ex-president donald trump. it seems that the house is already burning. >> yes. the globe is burning. freedom house, which measures this has said that democracy is declining around the world over the last 17 years. every year there are fewer democracies than nondemocracies. but i have to say, at the risk of being the skunk at the picnic about the statement from the presidential libraries, it's nothing objectionable about it. anodyne is an anodyne way of describing it. it's a classic both sides statement. your very strong introduction to this segment called out one particular party for being anti-democratic, a party where

147 members of that party voted against certifying an election. in a two-party state. >> in which all their names were on the same ballot. every republican house member was on the same ballot they were calling garbage. >> that's not anti-democratic, i don't know what it is. and if you live in a two-party state, which we do, and one party doesn't accept the legitimacy of elections, there is nothing that undermines democracy more than that. and that word that begins with r, that stands for republican wasn't mentioned in those presidential libraries statement. now i once ran a nonpartisan nonprofit. i know how scary it is to call people out. but in the great book about this, how democracies die, which came out in 2018, one of the ways that democracies die is not calling out the bad actors, by having both sides statements, by not saying you know what? there is one person, and it's a person we talked about endlessly here, and there is one party here that is undermining the rule of law and undermining

democracy. that, you have to do that. and this statement doesn't do that. >> david, you want to respond? >> i think there is a role for organizations that should be calling out bad behavior. but when you have presidential centers of both parties try to come together and identify what unites us and the kinds of principles that we can point to that we hope can shine a light on the way forward, i think this is the appropriate role for the presidential centers. this is not to disagree that it's important to call out bad behavior. it's essential, actually. but i don't think that's the role for the presidential centers in this statement. >> david, would the centers consider a -- using all of the stature that all of the former presidents have individually and as a collective to issue a kind of report card on the health of our media, on the numbers of attacks against the free press, on the health of our judiciary and the numbers of attacks on

judges and prosecutors and attorneys, on the health of our elections, on the number -- would you consider digging into the various issues and using your stature as sort of this elevated group of former presidents to issue a report card on the health of our democracy? >> obviously, i can't speak on behalf of all the other presidential centers. and as you noted earlier, this is unprecedented that we've come together on this very short statement of very high-level principles, anodyne as they may be. it would be pretty premature to talk what we would consider doing as a specific group of institutions. on the other hand, several of the institutions, the carter center among them and many other organizations are engaging directly and doing exactly the kinds of things that you're talking about to try to analyze what are the strengths and weaknesses and the democratic process and election processes around the united states.

carter center and others have been engaging, and there is many, many other organizations. the one thing that gives me hope about the current state of the country is many people, institutions, organizations, are now hyper focused on the seriousness of the challenges that we face. and they're trying to do whatever they can that they think is best for their organization. and we certainly are at the carter center. >> i hope it's a conversation that can be continued. former president carter was part of a commission. i believe former secretary of state james baker to look at vote fraud of the election. they found none. the experience of former presidents and the peaceful transfer of power is the legacy that makes people feel the good things about our democracy. it was blown up in the last election cycle. i think people would welcome more frequent miss sieves from the collective, just speaking as

myself. and i think for some of our viewers. david, carl thank you very much for being here to talk about it. mary mccard and david stej, thank you. the staggering amount of prison sentences that have already been handed down, all because the disgraced ex-president tried to overturn an election he clearly and fairly lost. the latest and longest sentence so far may mark a turning point in the never ending quest to hold those who took part in the coup plot accountable. and we will talk about it. we're joined by our dear friend, officer harry dunn after a short break. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

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a lot of people asked, you know, are you still traumatized, do you have flashbacks. it's hard to have a flashback of something when it hasn't ended and it's still like a nonstop playing scene in your head. it's not like a flashback, a triggering moment. this is my life now. how can it end until accountability has been had. >> what would accountability look like? >> try to be educated and instead of emotional responding this question. but whatever the measures that are there to make sure that this never happens again, that's what accountability looks like to me. >> sounded pretty good to us. we talk a lot and cover efforts for accountability on this show,

especially accountability for those behind the january 6th insurrection. the accountability is something that officer harry dunn has him waiting for an awfully long time. this week we did see some accountability in the form of that 22-year sentence for the former leader of the proud boys, enrique tarrio. it is the most severe penalty handed down so far to any of the more than 1100 people charged in connection with the capitol attack. that's superlative, if you want the call it that, enrique tarrio getting the most severe penalty yet. it's saying something, considering that as "the washington post" puts it, as of today, the total number of years of incarceration in january 6th sentences adds up to about 700 years. 700 years in prison sentences for the capitol hill rioters collectively, and counting. because federal authorities continue to arrest alleged january 6th participants more than two and a half years after the capitol attack, with a virginia man being taken into custody yesterday and charged with being part of a group that

attacked d.c. police officer michael fanone. the wheels of justice turn slowly, but they do turn, and they are turning. joining us now to talk than, our friend officer harry dunn, author of the new book "standing my ground: a capitol police officer's fight for accountability." it's out on october 24th. you can preorder it right now. harry, i wanted to talk to you all week. i'm so glad to see you today. enrique tarrio is in a category of people you talked about at the first public hearing from the january 6th select committee, right? you talked about the people who hire the hitmen. he wasn't there that day because he was already in trouble, but he was one of the masterminds. and i wonder how it feels to see one of the masterminds who wasn't actually at the u.s. capitol swinging weapons and projectiles at you and your colleagues, receive the longest sentence.

>> hey, nicolle, good to be with you. i wasn't able to be with you the day of the sentencing. it was a little bit heavy for me. and i wanted to at least gather my thoughts before i came on and started talking recklessly or something like that. but, you know, when i made that statement, i didn't even know who enrique tarrio was. one of the things i said during the hearings or in interviews afterwards, we don't even know what we don't know. and look how much we found out through the investigations of it. and it's just been mind-blowing. but to have something, like i said, who wasn't there face penalties, it was the right thing to do, and the justice department investigated it and they handed down what a judge hand down the sentence, that he determined appropriate. >> you were in the courtroom. what was that like? >> you know, it was interesting. i usually, when i go -- first

and foremost, try to go to every single court proceeding that i'm able to. so when i get off of work, it's a block away from the capitol. so i go straight down there and try to catch some of the proceedings that are still going on. and i saw his was starting late. so i went in there. it was crowd courtroom. usually they sit you behind. they sit the officers behind the prosecution. but i was seated directly behind enrique tarrio and right in front of his family and his supporters. it was very awkward. but i tell you what, though. this may be a weird thing to hear, but empathy and compassion sucks, because i was in there, and i had the opportunity to listen to him, to his mom, his aunt, his sister, and, you know, that's the thing about this january 6th stuff. it affected so many more people than just the people that you

see, the names of the people that you know. so many people were affected that day. and while i have desired and yearned for, you know, accountability and these individuals to get what they deserve because of what they did, it still tugs on your heart strings a little bit that you see his mother in there crying, who may not have had anything to do with it. and it's just -- it sucked. so i couldn't really celebrate it, but it was necessary, that sentence. >> i mean, look, i think you're describing sort of the blast radius of trauma, right? >> yeah. >> these actions created violence, and he is paying a price for them. but that can't be separated from the human blast radius of trauma he's created around him. and i think it brings us back to where we always end up. he is not there leading the

proubs to take the capitol without donald trump telling him to, quote, stand back and stand by. >> you know, so i hear a lot of people say this, and i've been thinking about when people say january 6th is because of one man. you know what? as much as i dislike that guy, i got to push back a little bit on that statement because these individuals were grown men and women who made conscious decisions to go down there and commit crimes. and i think by blaming solely, solely donald trump, it gives them kind of like a pass. even though they're getting sentenced, accountability. they need to be shamed for their actions, not just they weren't brainwashed. they're grown-ass people who made dumb-ass decision, you know? >> that's my favorite thing. whoopi goldberg called them grown-ass men. listen, that's the view of merrick garland's justice

department. i can't say that merrick garland thinks they're all grown-ass men. the justice department is treating them like grown-ups who decided to commit crimes. and i think at times we've been critical of the justice department. but to commend the justice department for viewing enrique tarrio as someone who deserves, i think they saw it up to 27, 27 to 44 years. and the commend the judge who saw fit -- i think what he said that day is you stopped -- he said this to tarrio, and you correct me if you heard differently. but he said you stopped the tradition of a peaceful transfer of power in the country. because of you, that stopped. and he was sentenced to 22 years, as you said, because he is a grown-ass man responsible for his actions. >> you know, yeah, that is similar to what he said. i don't know verbatim. but i was struck by the judge's comments when he was -- you know, that clip that you led in with me when i was talking about the deterrents to keep people

from doing this again. the judge spoke to that a lot. and he referenced deterrents a lot. and he wanted that sentence to reflect, you know, a the terrence. and now that it's here, let's see if it works, right? but it still blows my mind that these individuals, you know, people are blaming trump. i keep going back to that. this is solely on donald trump, solely on donald trump. yeah, he is an idiot himself. but, but these people, like i said, they made their bed. now it's time to sleep in it. >> yeah. and even kids, if there is a bullying incident at school, it's not just the bully that gets suspended. it's everyone that stands in the playground and watches. this is a tenet of justice in our country at every level. harry, you i think defined for us the accountability that we constantly ask lawmakers how

they're doing on achieving. but you also i think have created the most extraordinary permission structure to talk about mental health. and you inspired a lot of the conversations we've had with a lot of people. yesterday i got to talk to one of my heroes, nba superstar kevin love. i'm going play some of that conversation for you and we'll talk about our other favorite thing to talk to you about after the break. don't go anywhere. go anywhere. ...in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) with verizon business, we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) so our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) it's not just a network. it's enterprise intelligence. (vo) learn more. it's your vision, it's your verizon. tired muscles and joints were keeping me

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i like the way you write in the two essays about depression without sugarcoating. the first line in the second essay is depression is exhausting. >> yes. >> can we talk than? >> it really is exhausting. you feel like you're having to play this character. you have to keep a facade. and that in itself can be really tiring. >> the healing is exhausting too, though. >> the healing is exhausting too. and anybody who sells you -- sorry to interrupt you there, but anybody who sells you a quick fix for mental health is lying to you. anything worth fighting for is going to really take time. and it's not always going to be easy. sometimes, at least for me, it got worse before it got better. but i think when you see it through, it can be -- i think it makes you a more evolved person. >> the healing is exhausting. i had the great fortune to sit

down yesterday with nba superstar kevin love as part of our ongoing focus and series on the mental health crisis in america right now. you may know kevin love is the power forward for the miami heat. he made it all the way to the finals. he is also a fearless and frank advocate for mental health, his own and that of thousands of children that he is helping. he has been outspoken about a panic attack he had on the court in 2017, and his struggles and challenges with depression on and off the court. he has committed to destigmatizing what we did there, just talking about it in the conversation. but especially for men and for kids, it's a topic that is also near and dear to officer harry dunn. harry, something you and i talk about all the time. because i always see your tweets checking on your colleagues. and i also have a window into all the things we don't see, all the calls and all the contact and the just flecks of instinct you have to always connect. and in talking to kevin love, i

thought about what we talk about the healing and it's okay to not be okay. but even just to be able to tell everyone i'm not okay is exhausting. it is an extraordinary effort. and you keep doing it. >> yeah, that was great what he said, that depression is exhausting. well, not great, because it sucks, right? >> but it's true. >> it's so true. healing is not a destination. it's a journey. so like you're going on a road trip. sometimes the speed limit is 20 miles an hour. sometimes it's 70. and sometimes you're just cruising and sometimes you're in traffic. and i feel like just how healing going through life is because who knows once you get through one traumatic experience, then that doesn't mean that you're not going have another one. it's so important for individuals like kevin love. that's great on him to speak. i remember him being vocal about hiss experiences and, you know,

naomi campbell and simone biles, and i forgot his name, for the eagles, the philadelphia eagles who has been very vocal. that's what it takes to get rid of that facade and make it okay to not be okay. >> i think it's also -- in the political space, it's so rare. i see all the love for you from all my viewers, and frankly, all viewers wherever you go. and i think i looked at my phone on the break, and all of the comments about your empathy for enrique tarrio's mother and family. and i want to ask you two questions. one how you doing? and how do you stay so vulnerable after dealing with such a brutal and public trauma? >> well, for me, to answer your question, i'm hanging on. i guess i'm in one of these moments right now where it sucks. but i am hanging on.

and how i'm able to do it, because hanging on is so difficult. making it through this world is so difficult by itself. i'm not going add another layer of difficulty by lying to people and putting this mask on. this is who i am. this is what i got. this is all i can give right now. either you accept it or don't, but this is all i can give. once you're able to not deal with that burden of having to people please anymore, life becomes a little easier. >> rick, i think, and i'm doing my part from my small perch here, i think we can't cover politics anymore without acknowledging the collective toll of the trauma to our democracy and the trauma to our discourse of the last eight years. >> and that traumatizes people. i think listening to harry, though, i think in a way harry has the solution. to be empathetic to people, to

your competitors. i also thought he in expressing that empathy for other people, that show we get away from this both sidesism. and our politics has been animated by grievance for the last seven or eight years. here is a man who is entitled to be aggrieved and is not. that's how we triumphant over the politics of grievance, by forgiving, by realizing that other people have flaws and harry is an example of that. >> harry, you get the last word. >> thanks. when you said politics, you just made me think going back to what senator fetterman was vulnerable. and, you know, this week or last week, representative scalise announced that he had cancer. and yet individuals in some of the comments saying oh, well and stuff like that. regardless how much you don't agree with somebody, i don't know. it's terrible.

we're here in a bad state in this country right now, and rick, i hope you're right, to show empathy even when people may not be deserving of it. >> i think you saw joe biden do it with his call to mitch mcconnell. he said i talked to him. he seems fine. i think the vast majority of people are still drawn to and respect that civility. officer harry dunn, you always, whatever it is that you've sort of been through, and i really respect to come on and talk about the tarrio sentencing. you always lift up our viewers. thank you very much for doing that again today in this conversation. we're so grate to feel you. >> thank you, thank you. >> thank you. ahead for us around here, why abortions in this country are on the rise, even after so many red states put harsh new restrictions in place on abortion health care. we'll have the results of a brand-new study after a short break. don't go anywhere. e.

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states where the abortion is illegal. however, it also comes amid efforts to prevent women from leaving for access to health care. we told you about towns in texas that allow people to sue anyone they suspect transporting someone out of the state for abortion. now in alabama, the attorney general has argued it's not only legal to help the women to leave the state and women could be legally leaving, he said a women leaving for medical care for the state's interests in knowing the whereabouts of sex offenders. joining me is pro-choice america. talking about the politics in one second. what do you think is going on with women and abortion health care? >> i mean, it's continuing to get very dire, nicolle. we are now at 22 states and counting. we're seeing more attacks on abortion access. and i know we're going to get to the politics in a little bit. but what the study shows us is

in the face of horrific restrictions, abortion activists are really true heros in this moment. i want to give a complete shout out to the providers, the independent providers, our friends at planned parenthood, but also the abortion funds which saw a surge of support from the american people and have reallyinstrumental in getting people who need access from point a to point b. >> i think the reaction among not just women, but men and women in america to the republican stated position of banning access to abortion health care is so seismic, it's not necessarily being detected in all the political conversations. what are you seeing? >> in our own polling, as well as polling by other partners and independent third parties, we're seeing a surge in support for abortion access from populations we didn't see. like public opinion on abortion

access is changing so rapidly that i completely agree that the political parties aren't completely grappling with it. for example, independent men even republican men are beginning to turn on the gop. specifically, around this issue. in our focus groups, we had republican men say things like this feels feels like state sand torture. >> wow. >> so if we're getting republican men making comments like that -- again, that's anecdotal, but it's bearing out in the data, right, and how the vote is shifting, and we're seeing it in how the candidates frankly -- in the debates less so much, but candidates in virginia trying to hide the ball on their positions and we're seeing governor youngkin shifting their stance. >> every republican pollster can read a poll, and they're telling their clients this is a massive loser. >> correct. some are listening though, and some are not. >> correct. that's always the case. when you're losing in kansas,

ohio, lesing in north carolina, it's an electoral loser. i wonder what you think it says. we covered this story this week about the, the towns trying to outlaw trying to access health care not available in your state, and even a self-described pro-life woman says, i helped a woman in college. this sounds like it's going too far. there's no one who says, this sounds good to me. >> the long for bans that are in place, the more stories we see, the more republican shifts precisely because everyone feels like they know somebody, and in these states with ban they probably do know someone who's had the leave the state for care. the numbers in that report were mind boggling. we now know it's four times to travel for abortion access in this country for the average american, which is really dystopian stuff. so it's not surprising to me we're seeing a shift of opinion, everyone in tough places like my

home state of texas. >> what do you think the health care reality is for women? because the politics has a lagging ability to change the reality of access, right? >> welsh it's happening really quickly in states where abortion access is having a chilling effect on maternal health. we're seeing providers leave states. we're seeing it beyond women's health. we're seeing cancer providers -- i shouldn't say cancer providers. doctors who treat cancer not able to counsel their patients effectively because they can't talk about all the options. we're seeing the spillover effect to the larger health care industry. hospitals shutting dun in rural areas. access already a problem in places like georgia. now having a ban on top of it has meant significant problems across the state. i think women's health care is dire, but i think this

underscores the tenuous situation for health-care in this country overall, and why organizations like ours have been in the fight for access to health care overall. >> sort of reveals the dark underbellies of our politics, our policy, the health care system. if uteruses were inside the male body conversations would be totally different. >> one of the first things i ever worked on as a law student was a coverage of insurance coverage of viagra versus birth control, so this has been going on for a very long time. >> yeah, i -- yes. >> there's a whole story about that. >> yeah, we get rid of one, we need less of the other. but to be continued great to have you on set. >> thank you for having me. >> a quick break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. doors. known for getting everyone together. no one wants to be known for cancer, but a treatment can be. keytruda is known to treat cancer. fda-approved for 16 types of cancer,

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predates the grand jury that charged donald trump and 18 others, but their investigation laid all of the ground work for the indictment ultimately brought by district attorney fani willis. the special grand jury was impanelled in 2022. it was tasked with investigating and preparing a report as to whether anyone should be charged in connection with efforts to interfere with the 2020 presidential election in georgia. portions of their report were previously unsealed, but the full report could give us new details about how closely the special grand jury's conclusions aligned with d.a. fani willis' sweeping 41-count indictment and whether members of the panel wanted to indict additional people. superior court judge robert mcbernie ordered the release of the full report tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. i know what i'll be doing tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. we'll update as we learn more. quick break for us. we'll be right back. for us we'll be right back. uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now hi, ari. big day for you. >> well, nicolle, i was curious what you're thinking here. we talk about mr. navarro and mr. bannon before. you look at a conviction like this, it does move the line your days in government we had these skirmishes but didn't have the outright defiance. that gave the government a choice and now they've won both cases, bringing their choice to fruition, which is punishment. >> yeah, and i think you also -- i always l