debut tomorrow. jason isbell is such a talented writer and thinker and his soulful lyrics are so interesting. we're going to get into all of it tomorrow as we go down that road and get our guitars out for friday. join us tomorrow on "the beat." if you're interested, dvr if you're busy or check us out online. "the reidout" starts now. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i make decisions in this office based on the facts and the law. the law is completely nonpartisan. that's how decisions are made in every case. we look at the facts, we look at the law, and we bring charges. >> that was fulton county d.a. fani willis last month when she indicted donald trump and 18 others, and today, she released a blistering response to house judiciary committee chairman jim jordan's decision to investigate

her investigation. also tonight, the libraries of 13 former presidents, republican and democrat, issue an unprecedented warning about the state of u.s. democracy as we see an uptick in violent rhetoric from politicians on the right. plus, colorado voters file a lawsuit to keep trump off the ballot, raising the question, can the 14th amendment truly bar him from becoming president again? good evening. i'm jonathan capehart in for joy reid. we begin with a slew of legal developments today on multiple fronts. all involving the many criminal cases of donald trump and his associates. starting with peter navarro, the former adviser in the trump white house who just a short time ago was found guilty by a d.c. jury on two counts of criminal contempt of congress for refusing to comply with the subpoena from the house january 6th select committee last year. in their closing arguments,

prosecutors told jurors that navarro, quote, thinks he's above the law. and in this country, nobody is above the law. in that same building, the grand jury that indicted trump for election interference met today for the first time since handing up those charges more than four weeks ago. an indication that their investigation is ongoing, which could potentially spell bad news for the sixth unnamed coconspirators listed in that indictment. meanwhile, in georgia, attorneys for trump today notified the judge presiding over his criminal racketeering case that he may seek to move his state case to federal court. something several of his codefendants are also asking for. though the judge has yet to issue a ruling. and fulton county district attorney fani willis is proving once again that she is not to be messed with. issuing a scathing rebuke to republican house judiciary committee chairman jim jordan after he demanded that the d.a. hand over a series of documents

related to her indictment of trump. in her response, willis did not hold back. accusing congressman jordan of overstepping his congressional authority and obstructing her prosecution, writing in part, your job description as a legislature does not include criminal law enforcement, nor does it include supervising a specific criminal trial because you believe that doing so will promote your partisan political objectives. she goes on to say, your letter makes clear that you lack a basic understanding of the law, its practice, and the ethical obligations of attorneys generally and prosecutors specifically. there's a lot happening here, and here to discuss all of it, we have sonya diananda, former senior investigator on the house january 6th select committee, renato mariotti, former federal prosecutor, and hugo lowell, political investigations reporter for the guardian. thank you for coming to "the

reidout." sonya, i'll start with you, as someone who was part of the house select committee's investigation, what's your reaction to the navarro verdict? >> well, i think for those of us who served on the committee, it's another day of accountability. and it's also a day of affirming the committee's work. we had the congressional authority to investigate the facts and circumstances that led to january 6th. and as part of that, we interviewed close to 1,000 witnesses. the vast majority of them came in and cooperated with the committee. and if they were asserting privilege, they did so in front of a committee staffer. as part of our fact finding, peter navarro was identified as one of the key players who made efforts to overturn the 2020 election. so as part of the investigation, we had the authority to question him. we had the authority to subpoena him. and when he did not show up on that day, he was referred to department of justice.

so i think what viewers should be reassured by is there was a process, and that now by this verdict we see that no one is above the law, and that the common sense of d.c. jurors really held him accountable. and this is what we expect to see with additional trials in the future for the former president and his allies. >> renato, moving on to this brutal letter from fani willis to jim jordan. she goes on to write that if congress were to follow through on their threats to deny this office federal funds, you will be deciding to allow serious rapists to go unprosecuted, hate crimes to be unaddressed and to cancel programs for at-risk children. she also listed a number of suggestions for productive activity by the judiciary committee and she says that since jordan seems to have a personal interest in her office, quote, you should consider directing the u.s. doj to investigate the racist threats that have come to my staff and

me because of this investigation. renato, your reaction to that blistering letter? nine pages long. >> well, look, i will just say one thing about fani willis, she's a very much take no prisoners attitude. she lays down the law. he sets hard lines. she's done that with donald trump and now she's doing that with jim jordan. i have to say, there's definitely an element here in which she's taking this personally. she's sick of all the attacks. she's sick of the way in which people are threatening her, and i get it. i was threatened myself when i was a prosecutor. i was in protective custody for a period of time. it's not a fun situation to be in. so, you know, basically what she's telling jim jordan is she's calling him out on the fact this is really a political game. the united states congress really has no role, as she points out, in regulating local law enforcement. his supposed reason for investigating her is that he wants to see what's happening with federal funds. and her point is that, look,

federal funds are being used to prosecute crimes. the fact that you don't like one person i'm prosecuting, fact you have a political agenda doesn't mean i do. that's exactly where she wants to be. i think that's exactly the sort of strong responses she needs, and frankly, she's calling his bluff. >> this let's is very strong. and in fact, she throws his own words back at him. she writes, furthermore, your note calls to mind another letter submitted, this unprecedented action serves no legitimate legislative purchase and would set a dangerous precedent for future congresses. see letter from congressman jim jordan to bennie thompson dated january 9th, 2022. sonya, i would love to get your reaction to d.a. fani willis' letter. >> i think it's incredibly well written and methodically refutes the so-called legitimacy of this jim jordan inquiry.

i think the ability for the d.a., similar to alvin bragg in manhattan, to really try to shut down this inquiry in this public manner by filing a nine-page letter really also educates the country as to what the purpose of a congressional committee should be. and you can juxtapose what jim jordan is doing with what the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack did. we had a legislative purchase and we follows that purpose, and jim jordan is certainly not doing that here. >> hugo, let me bring you in to the conversation. congressional republicans have made almost their entire agenda centered around playing donald trump's legal team and investigating the investigators. do you think fani willis' letter will change anything or is jim jordan just going to double down? >> i don't think it's going to change anything. what we should always remember is when congressional republicans are going after these prosecutors, whether it's fani willis or jack smith, the

special counsel, it's in order to help trump. trump doesn't have a visibility into a lot of these investigations, into the indictments, into what prosecutors are thinking. so what he's effectively doing is getting the house republican conference and jim jordan to do his dirty work for him. and to send letters and subpoenas and to try to get some sort of intel from these prosecutors' offices to figure out what's going on and what might come down the line. i think it was very notable one of the letters jordan sent previously to fani willis was if she had any contact with federal investigators in jack smith's office. that i think is a tale tell sign that trump is really just trying to get intel. >> and hugo, there's other news out of georgia with trump signaling today he might seek to move his fulton county case to federal court, but he hasn't actually decided. what's the thought process of trump's legal team here? >> yeah, i checked in with a couple of trump's lawyers, and people in his inner circle, and it seems to be that they are waiting for mark meadows, his

former chief of staff, to see whether or not he can get his case moved to federal court. they want to see and use meadows as a guinea pig, as a test balloon to see whether his arguments fly and how kind of a federal judge might react before they jump in and potentially file their own removal motion themselves. i think to that end, the notice to the judge in fulton county today that he may soon file a removal motion is more aimed to the judge to say look, before you decide anything more in the fulton county case and whether or not you have all these codefendants tried together in october or if we make any more deliberations, you should take into account that trump at some point is going to remove his case to federal court. >> renato, what's the likelihood of his judge allowing trump or any of his codefendants to do that? >> i think it's very unlikely that trump would be allowed to remove his case. mark meadows has an uphill battle but he has some things going for him in that he had a

smaller role than trump. trump was the ring leader. and there were some elements of this rico enterprise that did involve some official acts. so that's really what the judge is an obama appointee, a good judge, what he's really grappling with. he's grappling with there's a small piece of this that was part of his official duties. is that enough to support removal? i don't think ultimately at the end of the day the judge is going to conclude that, but meadows is taking a calculated risk, and trump's team is sitting on the sidelines waiting to see if meadows succeeds. if he wins his gamble, trump might be more willing to take a gamble himself. >> sonya, i would love to get your reaction to the d.c. grand jury meeting again today. jack smith made it clear after the election interference charges were announced that the investigation would continue. should the six unindicted coconpeerteres be worried? is there anyone else who should be worried?

>> there are a number of reasons that grand juries reconvene in an ongoing investigation. it could be to hear additional evidence. whether that's against the former president or against the six coconspirators, it could be that your evidence, you're proposing new charges and that could be against the former president or again against the six coconspirators or other individuals. so whether a vote was taken is key. but it could just have been a presentation of additional evidence as jack smith said the investigation is ongoing, and that has to get in front of the grand jury. >> renato, what do you think? >> i think that there's ultimately going to be an indictment of those coconspirators, currently unindicted coconspirators. it's going to take some time. ultimately what i see is jack smith sort of carefully streamlining an indictment to get a very quick, speedy trial of donald trump, it looks like he's going to get that, based on what judge chutkan did. and i think to me, the question

i'm asking, jonathan, is what about mark meadows? he is conspicuously absent, even as an unindicted coconspirator in the d.c. indictment. he was clearly written around. i think he's going to show up as a witness for jack smith in that case. obviously, some complications giving he's indicted in georgia. very interesting to see how that shakes out. >> hugo, your thoughts. >> i think we have seen in previous cases grand juries reconvene after an indictment has been handed down. we saw that with manafort, in the classified documents case, and in the classified documents case, we did get a superseding indictment. so it's very possible that there's a superseding indictment on its way in the federal january 6th case. i think renato hits a good point here, that we don't know what jack smith wants to do with the other coconspirators. but the fact that trump was charged alone suggests that was a move to get to trial quickly. in his case, but it obviously doesn't preclude the fact any of

the coconspirators could also be charged. >> all right. sonya, renato, hugo, thank you all very much for coming to "the reidout" tonight. up next, in an unprecedented move, 13 presidential libraries have come together to deliver a warning about the precarious state of our democracy. but what is republican senator tommy tuberville concerned about? >> we've got people doing poems on aircraft carriers over the loud speaker. >> "the reidout" continues after this. ♪♪) rsv can be a dangerous virus... [sneeze] ...for those 60 and older. it's not just a cold. and if you're 60 or older... ...you may be at increased risk of hospitalization... [coughing] ...from this highly... ...contagious virus. not all dangers come with warning labels.

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. with donald trump's legal problems mounting, former arkansas governor mike huckabee recently claimed the charges in four different cases against trump are politically motivated by the biden administration and predicted this dark future. . >> if these tactics end up working to keep trump from running in 2024, it's going to be the last american election that will be decided by ballots rather than bullets. >> that kind of allusion to violence in the wake of his prosecution and trump's own calls for retribution is the kind of rhetoric that has spurred a coalition of presidential libraries from both parties to issue an unprecedented call to protect our democracy. 13 presidential centers and libraries representing

presidents from herbert hoover to barack obama signed a joint statement. they write that civility and respect in political discourse whether in an election year or otherwise are essential. the statement doesn't mention anyone by name, but the numerous calls for civility and respect certainly apply to donald trump, who as the 2024 republican front-runner has made victimhood and retribution the center of his campaign. contrast that with president biden who is running a campaign focused on his accomplishments while refusing to address trump's indictments. as charles blow writes in "the new york times," that dignified silence doesn't work against trump. trump's legal problems aren't about parking tickets or child support payments. they're about an ongoing assault on our democracy. and it is hard to square having the candidate who is campaigning on protecting our democracy not address the great threat to that democracy. and that threat isn't simply

about what has happened but what could yet happen. joining me now is charles blow, "new york times" columnist and msnbc political analyst, and david frahm, staff writer at the atlantic and former speechwriter for george w. bush. thank you for coming to "the reidout." charles, trump's republican opponents are also avoiding attacking him over his four indictments. yesterday in a speech in new hampshire, his former vice president, mike pence, criticized not necessarily trump, but the populism he inspired as, quote, road to ruin. what's the danger of his republican and democratic opponents both not going directly after his legal problems? >> well, it creates a void, and people are asking two things. number one, do i believe what i'm hearing about him? number two, even if i believe it, how much weight do i give to that? and because there is no one

opposing him who is giving weight to the charges, his entire machine including fox news kind of minimizes it and paints him as a martyr, paints him as a victim, and you know, it just makes me very nervous because i'm hearing georgia in a swing state, and every time i hear people who i know would otherwise be sympathetic to the democratic candidate or to joe biden, probably voted for him in the last election, repeating to me things i know are part of conspiracy theories, part of kind of an agenda of information that i know is coming from the right. i'm always wondering, how did they get to you, and how do we undo this, whoever has the job of undoing it. it doesn't seem like it would be an easy thing to undo, because thete are not people who are really engaged with the media all the time.

they don't read "the new york times" every day, they just get little bits of things that trickle down to them, and someone has to start standing up and saying, this is a problem. and it's coming from me, and i'm the opposition to this guy. >> david, i would love your reaction. >> you will remember that president biden did give a major speech about the state of dmentdacy on the eve of the 2022 congressional elections. the speech was in philadelphia, the one with the ominous red lighting. >> red and blue. >> yes, and the speech was intensely powerful because what it did is it goaded donald trump into intervening in the 2022 elections. remember, the republican strategy had been keep him off stage. this is not about trump. trump would not be contained after that speech. i think there's a lot of evidence that trump's re-emergence did damage to republican candidates and was one of the reasons they had such a disappointing election in 2022. people remember republicans did capture the house, but they forget the down ballot disaster. they lost four state legislative

chambers, someone that hasn't happened to the out party since the depression. charles is absolutely right about the mismatch between the political timing of the highly informed, highly attentive to politics and those who are less so, but the president of the united states speaks to those who are less so. and his timing has to match theirs. and that time is not now. that time will come, but it is not now. >> i would love to get your thoughts on vice president pence. one, the speech he gave, he doesn't name trump, but we know he's talking about him. but this idea of populism versus conservatism, when the real danger is the threat to democracy. why not come right out there and say that our democracy is at risk? >> i think there's a psychological thing going on here with former vice president pence, which is he still wants to keep alive the hope that he's a real candidate for the presidency running in the republican party, so he's saying as much as he can without

completely abandoning that hope. i think he would be happier in himself, he is a devout man, if he said my role is not to be a candidate. my role is to be a witness. and pence at his best speaks so powerfully, so effectively, so truthfully, and then the germ of ambition, which kindles -- i don't blame ambition, but his is doomed. give up the doomed ambition. be the witness, the eloquent witness he can be. >> representatives from some of the 13 presidential centers who signed on to that joint letter cited threats to election workers and january 6th as the impetus to sign on to it. i want you to listen to what ron desantis had to say about proud boys sentenced to prison. >> there are other examples of people that probably did commit misconduct, they may have been violent, but to say it's an act of terrorism. 22 years, if other people that did other things got six months, so i think we need a single standard of justice, and so we'll use pardons and

commutations as appropriate to insure everyone is treated equally. >> charles, can we even pull back from the anti-democrat, sentiment they're warning about when most of the republican field seems to think trying to violently overthrow our democracy doesn't count as terrorism? >> the entire thing is crazy. the idea that we're going to make sure everyone gets treated equally. the fact that everyone who stormed the capitol went home and went to sleep in their own bed that night lets you know right away that everyone did not get treated equally. if that were a black lives matter protest, they would not have gone home that night. number one. number two, there would be more people of the protesters killed that day than only a few or one or two, whatever the number is, of the protesters killed that day. that already tells you that people are not treated equally. donald trump would not have taken three years of investigation to get to

indictments if everyone was treated equally. he would not be able to treat the things he's tweeting and poison the jury pool if everyone was treated equally. the justice department -- not the justice department, the justice system is a joke when it comes to equal treatment because it does not treat people who are poor the same as it treats people who are rich and powerful. that's the biggest scandal here. and to try to flip that around to pretend that somehow these people are not being treated equally is ridiculous. also, i want to disagree with one thing that david said about timing that we have to wait unto engage on this issue for biden. that's a big problem that people that i talk to here and people who have polled some of these people point to, particularly here in georgia. they don't want to be -- they don't want the time to come around again for them to only be talked to in the middle of the heat of the battle. and they get that every single cycle. no one talks to them until the heat of the battle. and then they try to scare them and say, well, now you have to

be active because there's a problem, and there's a real risk here. they want to be talked to all the time. and what donald trump is doing, and what fox news has been doing is been attacking biden all the time. they have not waited until campaign season. they have been campaigning the entire time that biden has been in office. i think democrats could find a way to have a message that talks to voters all the time as if it is campaign season. >> but democrats are not the same as the president. that singular person with a lot of jobs. presidential words are very precious currency and they have to be used and allocated and budgeted very carefully. fox news can blather all the time. donald trump can blather all the time. the president has to be a little more careful. and to the point of messages, i think one of the ways to think about this is think about starting a giant flow of rock.

there are different sized rocks and they move at different points in the process, different sets of pressures. so there will be people who come out to vote in 2024 because of the abortion issue, and people who come out because of the democracy issue. people who come out because the economy is better than they have been told, but the thing i think above all to remember is we can't make this story a drama about the president. it's a drama about us. when those presidential libraries say what is the state of the democracy? you saw between 2017 and 2021 one of the biggest democratic mobilizations in the history of the united states. the turnout in 2018 was relative to the electorate the highest since the first world war, relative to the population, the highest ever in an off-year election. everybody is demobilized a little bit during the biden years, they have taken a holiday, but now they have to get back to work. that's on them, not just the president's job. >> i want to squeeze in one more question here because we're out of time, but we have to talk about tommy tuberville.

the navy secretary followed up the joint op-ed in "the washington post" calling on republican -- calling on tuberville to stop his blockade of military promotions. here's what senator tuberville, how he responded. >> right now, we're so woke in the military, we're losing recruits right and left. secretary del toro of the navy, he needs to get to building ships, recruiting, and get wokeness out of our navy. we have people doing poems on aircraft carriers over the loud speaker. >> charles, poems over the loud speaker on aircraft carriers? >> one thing that i think viewers should always remember, whenever you hear one of these politicians say they're anti-woke, whaument they're really saying is how dare you be out of the closet, and how dare you be out of the shadows? this is simply about saying to people who are marginalized, how dare you have raised your head and now we want you to go back

into the places where you used to hide. they are saying, they try to make wokeness either silly or a distraction or at worst, destructive, but at the end of the day, they're basically saying wind back the clock to the time where we did not see you and you did not have voice and you did not have power. always replace this anti-wokeness with that idea. >> with that, we have to leave it there. charles blow, david frum, thank you for coming to "the reidout." >> trump's presidential bid facing a new challenge as a group of voters file a lawsuit arguing the 14th amendment disqualified him from being on the ballot. colorado's secretary of state joins me next to respond. we'll be right back. disease and are on a statin, lowering cholesterol can be hard. diets and exercise add to the struggle. today, it's possible to go from struggle to cholesterol success with leqvio. with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by over 50%

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arguing that donald trump is constitutionally disqualified from running for president on grounds that it would violate the 14th amendment. it's based on a little known provision that bars people who have engaged in an insurrection from holding government office. it isn't just legal scholars kicking this theory around, but also elected officials like colorado's secretary of state, jena griswold, who told politico there have been conversations among other secretaries as well. the issue has intensified in griswold's state where the group citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington filed a lawsuit on behalf of the six

voters, four republicans and two unaffiliated seeking to remove trump from the ballot in that state because of his role in the insurrection on january 6th. joining me now is colorado secretary of state jena griswold, who also chairs the democratic association of secretaries of state. secretary griswold, thank you for being here. the group seeking to remove trump from the ballot declares it would be improper and a breach or neglect of duty for you as secretary of state to allow him name to appear on future primary or general election ballots. talk about the lawsuit and how you plan to address it. >> well, first, thank you for having me on. it's always great to see you. and what we are facing is a lawsuit alleging that donald trump is disqualified from the colorado ballot for inciting the insurrection and trying to steal the election in 2020 from the american people. now, this is a somewhat novel issue, but there is a provision of the constitution, section 3

of the 14th amendment, that clearly states that when someone swears to uphold the constitution, they are disqualified from office if they engage in insurrection or rebellion or comfort or aid the enemies of the constitution. so the lawsuit is based on that provision. there is a lot of questions of exactly how that provision works. and that's why i'm so glad to see honestly a lawsuit filed, because a court needs to weigh in. >> you know, secretary, the 14th amendment has been publicly discussed for a while, but this is a challenge officially filed against trump. it's also voters who initiated the suit. that doesn't fit the profile -- well, he calls them, trump calls them radical left communists. these are the people who trump's

claiming who are behind these charges, but the folks who are bringing suit or not bringing suit, but some of the legal scholars pushing this, they're fraught the federalist society. these are conservatives. these aren't radical left communists, right? >> that's right. and we all know that president trump is a liar. the voters who brought this suit are republican and unaffiliated voters. these are the people who brought this suit. and i think it's an important lawsuit that hopefully will add clarity to election officials all across the nation. there are some things that are very unclear about how the section 3 of the 14th amendment is enforced. for example, if someone is disqualified, are they barred from running for office or just being seated in office? who gets to make those decisions? how does colorado law execute the constitution? these are all really big questions. but to the point of donald trump

exaggerates and lies, there is a bigger issue that is the basis of the lawsuit. he incited the insurrection and tried to steal the election from the american people. there's a lot of questions about if that affects his ballot access and that's something i hope a court will decide and provide guidance to secretaries of state all across the nation, but specifically in the state of colorado, in particular as how that u.s. constitutional provision relates to colorado law. >> secretary, what are other secretaries of state saying about the 14th amendment question? is there unanimity of agreement or is there some descension? particularly among maybe fellow democrats? >> well, only a handful of secretaries of state have made comments so far. i think maybe five that i'm aware of. but i think the bigger picture is that this litigation, this lawsuit may play out over

various parts of the presidential election. and for your viewers, just know that this may not be resolved before the primary. this lawsuit may be brought again if trump is the nominee. it may be brought again if he wins the presidential election. but know this is just one lever, one variable that will affect the 2024 election. and what gives me a lot of hope through all of this situation, the attack on democracy, is that americans themselves will have the opportunity to choose between democracy and chaos yet again. and they have been deciding to choose democracy over and over and over in recent times. >> colorado secretary of state jena griswold, thank you very much for coming to "the reidout." coming up, we all know america's plagues by a resurgence of white supremacy, but a new book reveals it's actually more deeply entrenched in our history than you might think. joy reid's recent interview with jones is up next.

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j.p. morgan wealth management knows it's easy to get lost in investment research. get help with j.p morgan personal advisors. hey, david! ready to get started? work with advisors who create a plan with you, and help you find the right investments. so great getting to know you, let's take a look at your new investment plan. ok, great! this should have you moving in the right direction. thanks jen. get ongoing advice; and manage your investments in the chase mobile app. the recent racist violence in jacksonville, florida, tragically showed the poisonous fruit of white supremacy in america. as three black people were murdered at a dollar general store by a white supremacist shooter motivated by what officials called a disgusting ideology of hate. the senseless violence in jacksonville comes during a nationwide assault on teaching

black history, especially in ron desantis's florida, with his regime has dictated students must learn that some black people gained benefits from slavery, blocked access to advanced placement african american studies classes, similarly, sarah huckabee sanders' administration in arkansas says a.p. african american studies will no longer be recognized for course credit by the state. attempts like these to whitewash america's history are aimed at efforts to highlight a new start date for the american project, like nikole hannah-jones' 1619 project. a new book by robert p. jones spells out how the roots of white supremacy in america extend even deeper to a little known 15th century catholic church doctrine. i'm joined now by robert jones, the president and founder of the public religion research institute, and the author of "the hidden roots of white supremacy and the path to a shared american future." so good to see you.

>> so good to be here. >> here is my copy. i want to start by just explaining to us the doctrine of discovery, which feerchs a lot in the start of the book. >> well, i should say that this is something fairly new to me. i have a ph.d. in religion, i study a lot of religion, and this was fairly new. it's a set of 15th century christian doctrines designed to answer the problem of what do we do with all these people we just encountered in these lands we didn't know about, in the 1400s. so who do the christian princes and queens and kings appeal to but the head of the christian church. and this, i should say it is a catholic doctrine, but this is before the catholic protestant split, so it's a christian doctrine for all of western europe here. they appeal to the religious authority, the pope, and they get a decision about what their responsibilities are. and it basically runs like this.

it says the defining characteristic is whether or not these people are christian or not. if they are not christian and if they are not already subjugated by a christian power, then they essentially have no human rights. and it goes on to explicitly spell out that they have the right to occupy, conquer, kill, steal their goods, and then this phrase like is like literally in the document, something that still rings in my head, to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery. this is in the document from the highest power of the christian church in the late 1400s. >> so this is what gives license in their minds to european colonizers who try to enslave indigenous people, to wipe them out if they resist in any way, and to enslave africans. that's how they do it and still in their minds advance the interests of christianity. >> that's exactly right. it's worth remembering this is

the version of christianity that lands on these shores and motivates the landing on these shores, and one of the things i have been convinced of and at the heart of this new book is this idea that this country is intended by god to be a promise land for european christians is very much still with us. you han here, and p r i is an exquisite poll, you guys have a great reputation. do you agree with the statement, got intended america to be a new promise land with european christians could create a society that would be an example to the rest of the world? all americans only 30% say. as republicans 52% white eventual protestants 56%. so they are the ones who have this correlation. >> that's right. on the one hand, you look at this poll and say, two out of three americans reject this idea that this is intended to be a white christian country. however, it is captured a majority opinion in the republican party.

so one of our two major political parties is absolutely animated by this idea and it is underwritten feel theologically by a major religious group. >> how does the through line go by there from 15 century doctrine to things like wilmington north carolina government being overthrown, a reconstruction government overthrown by white supremacists, for the tulsa massacre, or what happened on january six, or jacksonville, the kind of race based violent attempts to overthrow governments and outright racist violence in jacksonville. is there a through line? >> absolutely. it's remarkable that we asked that polling question modeled on his 15th century doctrine and we see its hold on the american public. 30% of americans today. but you can see it animating a centrally what is determined to be a legitimate outcome of the democratic process and what is an illegitimate outcome. so wilmington.

legitimate vote there that installs a number of african americans and leadership is actually one of the few mixed race governments set up at the time, and whites wouldn't have it. there is a revolt and a deadly riot. this happens in tulsa. in the book i also talk about what happened in mississippi and places like minnesota, not just in the south or in oklahoma, a deep red state, or a state that borders canada. >> so how do we extricate ourselves from that? you have in more than 40 states, 44 states or something, they have outlawed teaching black history or teaching the kind of honest history you tallinn us book. there are some harrowing stories that happened here in the mississippi delta. that kind of history is illegal to teach in places like florida, arkansas, alabama, i could go on. how do we extricate ourselves from white supremacist theology when it is animating our politics in the actions of one

political party, once the democrats, now the republicans, when you can't even teaching it in school? >> in jacksonville, in a place where you can't even talk about the roots, the historical roots that explain the violence that we just experienced in florida. what i would say is to understand what is going on is this sense that where we are in the country today, the country is changing. there is a desperate attempt, i think, by a shrinking white christian minority to hold on because i think as this moment of reckoning is upon us, and we are in a moan moment of reckoning, monuments are coming down, black lives matter has affected all kinds of great changing reckoning, this is the reaction to all of that progress, and the reaction to this truth telling. so it's a cover-up. it's absolutely a cover-up, and it's in the interest of protecting this mythology of impossible innocence that white

christians have always wanted to tell about themselves, or people have told with the assistance of white christian theology. >> what i love about this is you say that that is true not injustice teaching of african american history, but in the sense of ignoring indigenous people and the incredible slaughter of them, and you bring that up in this book. the hidden book roots of whites and supremacy in the path to a shared american future. robert p. jones, thank you. we'll be right back. l be right back. rsv can be a dangerous virus... [sneeze] ...for those 60 and older. it's not just a cold. and if you're 60 or older... ...you may be at increased risk of hospitalization... [coughing] ...from this highly... ...contagious virus. not all dangers come with warning labels. talk to your pharmacist or doctor... ...about getting vaccinated against rsv today.

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barrier, a string of recognized mile buoys separated by saab late. texas governor greg abbott abbott had been stalled in june to make it difficult for migrants to cross the rio grande from mexico. in rebuke of abbott's overreach, a federal judge has ordered him to remove the 1000 foot barrier by september 15th. the preliminary injunction sided with justice department, with filed a lawsuit stating that texas had no authority to install a barrier in international waterway with where the federal government has jurisdiction. the court also concluded that the barrier was a threat to human life. the ruling is a win for the biden administration, which sued texas to get the burial removed. the state will appeal the ruling. the latest sign republican states trying to seize control of immigration from the biden administration. and that's tonight's reidout.

i'll see you this weekend on the saturday insanity shows an msnbc, saturday at 9 am eastern, democratic representative brendan boyle discusses a looming government shutdown, and threats by republicans to hold up funding if their demands are not met matt. and history is made in mississippi where they elect their first out gay black representative to the legislature. all in with chris hayes starts right now. right now. >> tonight on all in. >> www. defend peter.com. . [laughter] . >> a top trump official lost to a whistle outside the court has now lost his criminal case inside the court. >> is anybody listening? anybody want to tell me that i will be here the republicans