president candidate. if you're her, you have to turn that into gold. >> certainly, there was a sense she was the adult in the room on foreign policy and abortion at the debate a couple weeks back. terrific stuff, as always, from national politics reporter jonathan allen. have a great weekend. thanks to all of you for joining us today and all week long. "morning joe" starts right now. we knew going in what the verdict was going to be. that's why this is going to be appeals court. and we feel -- look, i said from the beginning, this is going to the supreme court. i said from the beginning, i am willing to go to prison to settle this issue. i'm willing to do that, but i also know that the likelihood of me going to prison is relatively small because we are right on this issue. >> former trump white house

adviser peter navarro showing loyalty to a man who rarely reciprocates that commitment. it comes as donald trump's defense team floats a new strategy in his georgia election interference case, moving it to federal court? we'll get an expert legal analysis on this development in just a moment. meanwhile, the fulton county d.a. did not hold back in her response to republican congressman and trump ally jim jordan. she is accusing the ohio lawmaker of trying to obstruct her case. also ahead, republicans are trying to rebrand on an issue that is really motivated voter turnout in recent elections. we'll tell you what that is. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's friday, everybody. >> we did it. >> september 8th. >> yeah. >> school is starting. it's that time of year. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire.

first day of school in the house? >> yesterday, finally. new york city is the last to go back. >> they made it on time? >> they did. they're excited for the school year. >> that's nice. member of "the new york times" editorial board, mara gay, is with. investigation reporter for "the guardian," hugo lowell on set with us. the chair at vanderbilt university, historian john mecum jo meacham joins us. before we start, the u.s. open was wild. >> coco gauff was cruising through her match, won the first set. early in the second, there was a stoppage of play. if you're watching at home, you have no idea what is going on. the entire crowd is looking up into the upper deck wondering what is going on. turned out, there was an environmental protest going on. three of the people, i believe, two or three, were taken out pretty quickly by security.

>> okay. >> then, as this delay went on and on and on, everyone wonders, what is going on, it lasted almost 50 minutes, 5-0. the players went to the locker rooms to keep, you know, stay warm. turned out, we learned in an interview right after the play resumed that one of the protesters had glued his feet -- >> come on. >> -- to the cement. glued his feet to the cement, so they had to figure out how to safely extract the man from the stadium, getting his feet out of the glue. >> who does that, joe? >> good news is, coco came back and won in straight sets, and she is on to the u.s. open final on saturday. >> what? weird. >> well, listen, if you're going to do that, right, if you're going to glue your feet to the floor and hold up a tennis event, i think you want to do it in flushing. they're the most understanding people in the world. >> oh, boy. >> i mean, they're going to be like, okay, you may be slowing us down 45, 50 minutes, but

we're with your -- no, not at all. it's the worst place in the world to do it. i remember barnicle, you, remember, meacham, back in the -- >> he's here. >> in '08, barnicle glued his hand to the desk, protesting something. i don't know exactly what. but that was a wild time. >> i think it was a red sox trade of some kind. it was 1908, wasn't it? >> it might have been. >> yeah. it was 1908. >> glue. >> he thought you were supposed to eat it. things went downhill from there. yeah, some great tennis last night, willie. man, are you ready for some football? are you ready for some football? the detroit lions, unbelievable. >> yeah. going into arrowhead stadium, the defending super bowl champion chiefs had their big

celebration. they win is super bowl last year. the detroit lions, who we talked about a lot on this show yesterday -- >> big segment. >> talked about the long-suffering lions fan. they go in and beat the chiefs, 21-20. pick six. rookie from alabama getting his first interception and touchdown of his career. >> oh, my gosh. >> they beat the travis kelce less chiefs last night, jonathan lemire. >> i can only imagine what the morning is like in the alberta household. congrats to tim. yeah, you can see the chiefs were limited without kelce. toney dropped a couple balls, including that one near the end of the game. the interception showed went off his hands into the defender for the pick six. the chiefs will be fine. get kelce back. they may need to upgrade the receiver position, but good for the lions. that is a tough thing to do, to go to the defending champion's stadium and win on the opening thursday night.

they did. i know, joe, you had followed the lions a lot last year, one of your adopted teams for the season. they have some real expectations for once. >> well you are an atlanta falcons fan, you have to adopt whoever is in the house. last year, the lions, you know, jack and i noticed that the lions were probably the best 1-6 team. we kept saying it. i said it on the show. they're the best 1-6 team in nfl history. they just went on a run last year. this is a team with a ton of heart. just really an exciting way to start. yeah, you've got, you know, no doubt the chiefs' mahomes the best players on the team. the second and third best weren't on the field with the chiefs last night. they'll obviously be in the hunt for a consecutive super bowl. but, you know, their best, i mean, the lions are for real. alberta has to just deal with

it. mara, anything you'd like to talk about? we have tennis. we have football. you pick. wiffle ball. >> i will say, i come from a detroit family, so it was very exciting. >> oh, right. >> my father was very excited. he lives within earshot of that stadium. >> nice. >> but not the one that the tigers -- or, excuse me -- the lions won in last night. he loves the games. the tailgating is huge in detroit. when they bridge it on home, hopefully the lions will continue their streak. of course, the long-suffering university of michigan fan, we'll take the wins where we can get them. >> all right. let's get to the news on this friday morning. a lot to get to. for the first time ever, a group of 13 presidential centers dating back a century is calling for a recommitment to the country's bedrock principles. in a joint statement, the coalition said americans should respect diverse beliefs.

noting that debate and disagreement are central to democracy. it reads in part, quote, our elected officials must lead by example and govern effectively in ways that deliver for the american people. this, in turn, will help to restore trust in public service. the rest of us must engage in civil dialogue, respect democratic institutions and rights, uphold safe, secure and accessible elections, and contribute to local, state or national improvement. the coalition does not name any elected officials, but there appear to be there a subtle rebuke of donald trump, who is accused of trying to overturn the 2020 presidential election. the statement was signed by every presidential organization from herbert hoover's to barack obama's. only the eisenhower foundation is missing in this.

definitely a firm statement about the strength of democracy, joe. >> yeah. jon meacham, there's been some complaining. you've heard some people, i know, and i have, too, wondering where some of these presidents are, what some of these former presidents coming out, speaking forcefully against trumpism, against what happened on january the 6th and the threats to democracy moving forward. this is a step in that direction, isn't it? >> it is. and, you know, most of these, the presidential libraries where the presidents are still around, you know, where the principle is still there, are different than the ones, obviously, that are legacy operations. what's remarkable about this is you have a -- i wouldn't even call it bipartisan. i'd call it suprapartisan. a supra partisan statement that

says, yes, democracy is strong. i think more interesting is why they had to do it. it's that democracy is weak. it is resilient, but it is under siege. these are the scholars, the foundation executives, and the presidents themselves who understand the inherent fragility of these institutions. i think that it says a great deal, you know, if you do what i do for a living, you know, you go back and you look at what was being said at a given time. you know, looking at the front page of the newspapers to see what the other stories were. the fact that 13 former presidential institutions had to say, "hey, democracy is important. pay attention to it," tells you a great deal about where we are on this early autumn morning. >> well, a couple things that

strike me. certainly, the presidents that are still alive, who served in that office from 19 -- january of '93 to january of 2017, obviously, their presidential libraries would not have come out and done anything without their support or their approval. >> right. >> and, of course, jimmy carter's, as well. the second thing, too, is i found at times people going to the reagan library and saying things that would make ronald reagan roll over in his grave. >> yeah. >> claiming the mantle of reagan conservatism, when it is as far away from reagan on certain views as humanly possible. i mean, you can go anywhere from immigration to trade, even guns at the end. i mean, certainly ukraine.

it's very interesting that, while they're not being specifically idealogical on one point or another, there is no doubt that when you speak at the reagan library, the reagan library has made it very clear, they do not support what is going on in the trump wing of the republican party. >> you know, two important things happened this week on this front. the statement that we're talking about, and that speech that mike pence gave. >> yup. >> he seems to have just discovered that donald trump is not great for america, but, as we've said before, joe, we're in the conversion business, right? >> amen. >> doesn't matter -- whenever you get here, we'll take you. basically arguing that you can choose between trump and you can choose between classical

conservatism, and that's, to me, an unquestionable thing. so the great, great issue here is who is listening. where i get some hope in this is it doesn't take that many of us to tip this in the right direction, right? these are incredibly close elections. we're talking about -- numbers are not my strong suit -- a couple of million people in five states. let's say you reached 10,000 of those people. people saw something, realized something, started thinking, you know what, maybe we shouldn't follow a cult of personality off a constitutional cliff. if so, that's a good week. you start again next week. because that's what all these presidents also understand, is that democracy is incredibly hard work. >> yeah. >> i mean, we're talking about -- >> it's fragile. >> -- tiny margins. take the example in front of us. donald trump, just over 11,000

votes in the state of georgia in 2020, the ones he was trying to flip back. let's talk about everything going on around the former president and the context of this conversation. former white house adviser, peter navarro, adviser to trump, convicted yesterday of contempt of congress for ignoring a subpoena last year from the house january 6th committee. it took the jury just four hours to find navarro guilty on both counts he faced, for refusing to testify before the committee and refusing to turn over requests of documents. the trial lasted only two days. navarro's legal team did not present witness testimony or evidence. navarro planned on mounting a defense, claiming he was bound by executive privilege. he said former president trump told him not to cooperate with the committee, but the judge rejected that argument in a pretrial ruling last week. sentencing set for january 12th. navarro faces up to two years in prison. he's repeatedly called this a landmark case, based on separation of powers. >> people like me, senior white

house advisers, alter egos to the president, cannot be compelled, cannot be compelled to testify before congress. absolute. yet, they brought the case. >> after the verdict, navarro's attorney called for a mistrial, claiming the jury was exposed to protesters during a break, and they returned the guilty verdict shortly afterward. the judge would not rule on that right away, telling navarro's lawyer to file a motion to be considered at a later time. hugo, there are so many pieces of this trump spectacle that we've been witnessing. how important is peter navarro to all of it, number one? the green bay sweep is the play he designed to try to get mike pence to flip the election, not certify it anyway, and how does it fit into the larger puzzle of everything swirling around trump? >> as an aside, the fact the january 6th committee, though it no longer exists, the fact the subpoena authority has upheld is

really significant, right? >> validating, yeah. >> more than a year since it's been litigated, he is finally being held to account for his willful default and not showing up for the subpoena. there is no widespread immunity to just defy a congressional subpoena, and so i think the fact that this did go to trial and, you know, he was convicted by a jury, in about probably the same time as it took for coco gauff to have a break, is pretty significant. but it fits into the wider set of things, right? the grand jury in d.c. is still meeting. it's still taking evidence in the federal january 6th case. the green bay sweep, as you say, was this element in trump's efforts to overturn the election that was possibly the most kind of covert and the one most insidious. it, you know, pulls in all these operatives from different angles. you know, the fact this is coming back down again i think is significant in that sense, as well. >> he faces real jail time, sentenced in january, up to two years?

>> i mean, bannon was sentenced to jail. he's out now pending appeal. this is a really dumb crime. if you're going to be convicted -- >> really dumb. >> -- maybe you can get rich on the side. you know, this is -- >> not showing up. moving on to fulton county now. district attorney fani willis is accusing one of donald trump's top allies in congress of trying to obstruct her case. in a scathing letter yesterday, the d.a. blasted house judiciary committee chairman jim jordan for his efforts to investigate her state probe. following donald trump's indictment in georgia last month, the ohio republican asked willis to turn over all documents related to her case, which jordan claims is politically motivated. in response, the d.a. wrote, in part, yesterday, this, your attempt to invoke congressional authority to intrude upon and interfere with an active criminal case in georgia is

flagrantly at odds with the constitution. your letter makes clear that you lack a basic understanding of the law, its practice, and the ethical obligations of authorities generally and prosecutors specifically. its obvious purpose is to obstruct a georgia criminal proceeding and to advance outrageous partisan misrepresentations. i tell people often, deal with reality or reality will deal with you. it is time that you deal with some basic realities. a special purpose grand jury made up of everyday citizens investigated for ten months and made recommendations to me. for a more thorough understanding of georgia's rico statute, its application and similar laws in other states, i encourage you to read "rico state-by-state." as a non-member of the bar, you can purchase a copy for $249.

ouch. jordan's office has not responded to a request for comment by nbc news. i think she's a little fed up with him, rightfully so, jim jordan. most people are. >> a great line there at the end. certainly, for the proof she's up for this fight. one, mara, that is a legal one to be sure. we know this is a sprawling case. there is real doubt as to whether or not the trump piece of it, anyway, can come to trial before the election, which i think a lot of people are concerned about. that's the one we know will be on television. people could actually see. but, also, this moment underscores the efforts by republicans to try to sabotage it. we have had that from the beginning. this house gop, in particular, trying to play really fast with the law and their own authority, to try to, whether it is defund jack smith's investigation or now, even put their fingers in a state matter, that's dangerous stuff.

>> well, it's a slow roll way to support this conspiracy that we are now finally seeing prosecuted. that's what is so scary. i mean, what happened on january 6th didn't just happen on that one day. i think what you're seeing in congress right now from republicans who are really willing to throw democracy under the bus, and some of our institutions under the bus, as well as their colleagues and the american people, is this is about power at all costs. they're going to protect their number one guy who remains donald trump, for whatever reason. >> still. >> still can't let go. and i have to say, i think donald trump and his acolytes, his advisers, his supporters have really taken advantage of the fact that this is so unprecedented in american history. i think this is been a sense that, well, surely our institutions will stand. it doesn't take the rest of us to break these norms to stand up to them. i think what you're starting to

see, and you see this with the prosecution of the january 6th conspirators, the leaders this past week. you see it, as well, with navarro's conviction. now, you're seeing this just with the d.a. simply, you know, really putting out a very strong statement, which is that there needs to be pushback. the pushback needs to be forceful, and i think there needs to be a collective sense that we're fed up with this kind of behavior. and we're going to protect democracy. you're seeing that, and that's really heartening. it's still disturbing that jim jordan, who represents quite a block, let's say, is really willing to throw the democracy under the bus. >> it has to be said that it's further heartening that even the governor of georgia, brian kemp, last week said, "we're not doing this, guys." talking about the state level when there was a move to get rid of fani willis, to impeach her. they said, "this is not how it works." him and brad raffensperger and

all of them. your reporting, hugo, this morning about donald trump in georgia, perhaps following the mark meadows playbook, which is to say, i want this case moved to federal court. what is the argument for that, and how would that change things for him? >> yeah. you know, trump has been weighing whether to have his case moved to federal georgia in georgia. that way, he gets out of a potentially more adverse jury pool for him, also the cameras in the court, to which he really does not want. >> right. >> the removal issue is interesting because it serves two purposes for him. one is, basically -- well, he wants to follow mark meadows' line. he wants to use the arguments that are successful, if meadows is successful. you know, he doesn't want to do this himself. he wants to repurpose what other people are doing. also, it serves the delay, right? his overarching -- >> that's the bottom line. >> right. he has 30 days from the time of his arraignment to file a motion to remove to federal court.

he is going to do it on the last day, no question about it. i was speaking to several people in trump's inner circle, and they are very brazen about this. i think you get two major benefits if he removes. >> jon meacham, pulling back and looking at the whole situation, of course, you and i both know growing up in the cold war about the doomsday clock. i talked to you before, leading up to 2020, your belief this country was in the 1850s historically, deciding whether to move toward a civil war or move toward peace. obviously, the 2020 election, a short, short gain for democracy, a temporary gain for democracy. because the guy who was pressuring his attorney general to arrest his opponent two weeks before the election lost. but since then, we've had riots that he inspired.

we've had him saying he was going to terminate the constitution of the united states if he could. if that's what it took for him to get back into the white house. we've, of course, had him stealing nuclear secrets. we've had him stealing war plans. we've had him stealing documents that describe america's weaknesses. we've had him caught in a conspiracy to steal an election. the evidence pretty damning. we have his own i.t. director testifying that he tried to destroy evidenc that the fbi was trying to get. trying to destroy the tapes. does that sound familiar? on and on and on. there is a lot of hand wringing. as james carville would say, a lot of democratic bedwetting right now over a cnn poll that has he and donald trump tied at 46%. your thoughts on the talk that

continues to go around, not only about the president, but also the state of democracy and the risks that that democracy faces over the next 18 months. >> well, it's the most fragile form of government. if it were easy, everybody would do it. we wouldn't be the longest functioning one, ringing in at almost 250 years. we haven't gotten there yet. and it's fragile because it's human. it's up to us. it's about our appetites. it's about our polarization. it's about our interests, our will. and the question we have to decide every hour of every day, and maybe this sounds grand, but it's not, is do i respect the law in wanting to -- in dealing with you? maybe you have something i want.

in donald trump's case, joe biden had an election victory. what did he do? he had a choice, right? you can either follow the law and lose graciously, go back and try again, which is what has unfolded in this country for a long time. but it is, when you think about it globally, a huge exception, right? it's unusual. so the question is, if you have something i want, you know, by basic human instinct, it's to go grab it. but democracy, rule of law, the constitution suggests, tells me that i respect what you have. if i want it, i try to get it legally. that's the whole thing. it's not just because it's the right thing to do, though it happens to be, but it also protects me if i have something you want. so i think this is a moral question.

i think this is about how we are with each other. i don't believe these polls, honestly. i think, basically, the model is pretty hard to figure out. i don't know if you get called up, if you're going to tell the truth to somebody. i think there's a lot of trolling on the republican side. you're right, 2020 was a step in the right direction. so was 2022. let's not forget that. but it's always going to be hugely close. >> right. >> that's why it's up to every one of us to do it. >> historian jon meacham. >> mara, talking about the skepticism, mara, really quickly. i'm so sorry, mika. talking about the skepticism real quickly about polling. i said that to a reporter a couple days ago. like, i just -- you know what? i don't want to hear the polls. i don't want to hear them. we heard that joe biden was going to win in a landslide in 2020. he didn't. we heard that republicans were

going to win in a massive red wave in 2022. even when we didn't feel it, but we heard it and everybody told us. everybody talked about it, and then it didn't happen. again, i just -- again, i really do wonder, mara, what voter in suburban atlanta that didn't vote for donald trump in 2020 is going to say, "well, you know what? i didn't vote for him in 2020, but now, after january the 6th and after he stole nuclear secrets and after he tried to get his own people to destroy his tapes and after everybody that's testified against him in all these cases are people that he hired himself, and after he said he was going to terminate the constitution, yeah, yeah, i think my friends in alpharetta and i, we're going to go knock on doors for donald trump." i don't see it happening. >> yeah. i actually totally agree.

i think we like to think of polls as though they're biblical in some way or they're perfectly scientific. it's really more of an art in many ways. it's just a snapshot in time of people you happen to catch on a certain day, who may or may n honestly tell you what they're feeling. you have to put it into context of, you know, there is a choice. there will be a choice between two individuals. on that day, the question is always, which voters are the most motivated to show up? how many of them are there? of course, campaigning matters. getting out the vote matters. all of this is to say that there are probably many americans who may not be feeling that excited or enthusiastic about voting for president biden. but on the day of, i think many of them will show up anyway because they certainly don't want the alternative in donald trump. i think we've seen that consistently in those polls.

so this is about turnout as much as it is about polls that are up and down on a specific candidate. so i think it's early and you don't want to take polls just by their word and move on. this is about something bigger than that. there is a context here. >> historian jon meacham and "the guardian's" hugo lowell, thank you very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," amid mounting legal bills, rudy giuliani gets a little fundraising help from former president trump. plus, after consistent election losses, republicans are trying to move away from the term "pro-life." we'll have that new reporting and what's on the table instead. and republican senator tommy tuberville, who has been blocking military promotions since february, complained this week about navy sailors reciting poetry. our next guest has his own poem for the senator.

roses are red. carriers are gray. how come you're dissing our military every damn day? admiral james stavridis joins us with more of his thoughts. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. subway's now slicing their deli meats fresh. that's why they're proferred ,by this pro who won the superbowl twice. and this pro with the perfect slice. and if we profer it, we know america will too. what about spaniards? and i guess spain. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down...

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right now, we are so woke in the military. we're losing recruits right and left. secretary del toro of the navy, he needs to get to building ships, needs to get to recruiting, and he needs to get wokeness out of the navy. we have people doing poems on aircraft carriers over the loud speaker. it is absolutely insane, the direction that we're headed in our military. >> oh, my lord.

republican senator tommy tuberville of alabama on wednesday accusing the navy of being woke. saying sailors are reading poems over the loud speakers. meanwhile, tuberville's block on military promotions has prevented over 300 service members so far from being confirmed into new positions. joining us now, former supreme allied commander of nato, retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis. he is the chief international analyst for nbc news. joe, i know you have the first question, but i cannot -- i just don't understand why republicans can't figure out a way to deal with tommy tuberville. >> well, they don't care enough to. they really don't. they're totally fine with the readiness of the united states suffering, obviously. obviously, by their own actions, you know, i'll tell ya what, if

i'm running that conference, i'm getting everybody in a press conference and we're telling tommy, "hey, tommy, you're not coaching football anymore. we're not talking about x's and o's. we're not talking about whether you go to the astro bowl or blue bonnet bowl or whatever bowl you want to go to." by the way, the blue bonnet was the last time in 1974, i think. "tommy, this is about life and death. this is about the strength of the united states military. this is about us being able to have leaders in place to project power. hey, tommy, this is about not having the marine corps commandant for the first time in 150 years. this is about having three services not having a military leader with a full range of power necessary to plan for it. this is about children whose mothers and fathers have chosen to serve in the united states military, to protect and defend

this country. children who don't know right now as a new school year starts where they're going to go because promotions have been held up, pause they're all sitting in limbo." tommy tuberville is trying to make a point on abortion that even the good people of alabama are telling him to drop. it's just all part of an ongoing attack by the republican party against the united states armed forces. they love to say we're weak. they want you to believe that the united states of america is weak, that our military is weak. you talk to a marine, quantico. have you spent five minutes with a navy s.e.a.l. or with the recruits that are trying to become s.e.a.l.s., the

candidates in coronado? an army ranger in northwest florida going through camp? i mean, have you spent any time with these people? you make fools of yourself when you say they are weak, that our military is weak. that you would rather them fight like russians than americans. you have betrayed your inner thoughts and the fact that your inner thoughts are really un-american. what do you call it when a republican party says they would rather our troops fight like russians than americans? what do you call it when they hold up three service leaders from taking charge to run their services? what do you call it when a jackass is trying to make a political point that nobody

gets? even the people in his own home state, the very conservative state of alabama don't get when you hold up the marine corps from having a commandant for the first time in 150 years. why aren't the republicans calling this out? why isn't everybody calling this out? let's bring from admiral james stavridis. i'm sick and tired of these people tearing down the military. i'm sick and tired of the republicans tearing down the united states of america. i'm sick and tired of them tearing down our soldiers and our sailors and marines, saying they're weak and they're woke. not to keep repeating a point, but ask 500 russians in the wagner group in syria who tried to bum rush our troops. ask them how weak and woke we are. you can't because they're dead. they died within five minutes of trying to bum rush the united

states military, the men and women in the united states military. admiral, i mean, how long does this go on? when do the republicans actually start putting readiness and national security ahead of petty political points? >> yeah, it's got to start now. by the way, it just makes my head explode when i hear this trope, that, oh, the military is woke. it is absolutely ridiculous. unlike senator tuberville, i've been on submarines. i've been on carriers. i've been with navy s.e.a.l.s. it commanded 150,000 troops in afghanistan. on ships right now, they're launching missiles, sailing around the world. they are conducting real world operations from the persian gulf

to the eastern mediterranean to the black sea to the western pacific and the south china sea. so don't talk about something that you don't know anything about, senator tuberville. point two, joe, would be, and you kind of picked some of this up, but let's take the navy as an example. we don't have a chief of naval operations, the equivalent of the commandant of the marine corps. as a result, the number two in the navy is forced to do both that job, the deputy job, the vice chief of naval operations, and the job of the chief of naval operations. so you're going to get half of the attention you need on these critical decisions. you know, see point one, directing a navy that's globally deployed in real world operations. third and finally, it's a morale issue, and that becomes a retention issue. if you look at the 300 admirals

and generals, every one of them has colonels and navy captains and petty officers and sergeants that are part of their team. so, joe, your point about the children of these, that's not hundreds, it's not thousands, it's tens of thousands of military families at this point with who have no idea where they're going to be stationed in the fall because the senate doesn't confirm all because of one senator using an arcane process in a destructive way. so, yeah, i'm frustrated. i assure you, everybody in the military is. >> there are so many topics, willie, that tommy tuberville could take on when it comes to the military. there are a number of bases in his state that he could go visit and, i don't know, talk about, let's say, military pay. you have people serving this country who are on food stamps,

who have children. they can't go for certain jobs because they can't afford it, because they're trying to feed their families. but they serve because they love it. this guy, i mean, joe was asking what this word is, what the word is for what he's doing? it's destructive. it's undermining to our military. i would go further even. i think this man right here is damaging our nation's security, a number of different ways, and i'm very concerned that nobody is holding him accountable, especially his republican counterparts. >> it's not just you saying that. military leadership is saying this man is damaging our military readiness. claire mccaskill was on with us yesterday, former u.s. senator. she said, of course mitch mcconnell, of course leadership could do something about this. of course they could lean on tuberville and say, "knock it off. you've made your point," but they're not doing that. admiral, the part when you

listen to senator tuberville in some of the interviews, he's just so glib about something so important. >> flippant. >> when pushed about it, he says, the military's top heavy anyway. we have too many generals, too many admirals. this isn't a big deal. trust me, we're going to be fine. can you speak to that part of his argument? >> absolutely. the number of admirals and generals are distributed, directing a global force of 2 million people. i assure you, the number of admirals and generals is monitored constantly, parsed. we reshape this part of the business constantly. but what the senator is doing here is throwing a huge, huge sledgehammer to try to hit this tiny fly of a policy irritation that he has. in doing it, in swinging that

hammer, he is destroying, is really the right word, our ability to conduct forward operations, to do innovation in the military, something we desperately need to be doing right now, hurting our retention and our morale. i'll conclude on this point as follows. how is senator tuberville going to feel five years from now when senator left wing decides that he or she is going to hold up all military promotions because they don't like the fossil fuel policies of the department of defense? this will cut both ways ultimately. it is an egregious stance he has taken, and our republican leaders know it. i've talked recently to several, in the house in particular. they need to put pressure to make this stop. >> in a way, for some reason, they haven't. retired four-star navy admiral,

james stavridis, great to have your perspective, admiral. thank you. mika, admiral talked about retention. just yesterday, as we come up on the end of the fiscal year here in a couple weeks, the branches of the military say, we're going to fall well short of our recruiting goals. this is obviously not the driver of that, the sole driver of that. but when you hear again and again as a young generation, the military is weak, it's woke, not something you want to be a part of, it certainly doesn't help. our branches outside of the marines, every branch is short of its recruitment goals. coming up, new york city mayor eric adams is warning the flow of migrants into his city will upend neighborhoods and, quote, destroy it. reverend al sharpton joins us next to weigh in on the mayor's provocative remarks. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. okay everyone, our mission is complete balanced nutrition.

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it's 51 past the hour. new york city mayor eric adams this week claimed the city was being destroyed by an influx of asylum seekers from the southern border. speaking at an event on wednesday night, the mayor said he did not know how to fix the issue. >> never in my life have i had a problem that i did not see an ending to. i don't see an ending to this. i don't see an ending to this. this issue will destroy new york city. destroy new york city. >> really strong words. the 21,000 new children ofsees yesterday in new york city, the largest education system in the nation. 10,000 migrants have been arriving in the city each month, straining the city's services across the board.

nearly 60,000 migrants currently occupy beds in city shelters and emergency sites. mayor adams has been critical of the federal response to the crisis, saying, quote, we're getting no support. the white house has defended its response to the issue, noting the $140 million in new federal funds to the city and state. in addition, a white house spokesman noted that only congress can reform our broken immigration system and provide additional resources to communities across the country. let's bring in president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. rev, the mayor was making it very clear, there's no end in sight here. he's at a loss. >> i talked to the mayor on monday. we both were at the parade for labor day. he is frustrated, not because of

any, i think, overreaction on his part is because he is past the limits of what he can do as mayor. unless the federal government, including the congress, steps in, there is no end in sight. these people are being brought in, started for political reasons by people like governor abbott and others, sending them to new york, and it is beyond the purview of the mayor to handle the influx. we can say, calm down, eric. don't get too much with your rhetoric, but it is a desperate situation. as long as i have known the mayor, he's never been in a situation that was not within his grasp to handle. >> right. >> this is beyond his grasp. he needs congressional intervention. >> mamara, you saw the frustration. he said, the city we knew, we're about to lose. those are the words of the mayor of new york city. he said, i was worried a year ago when it was 15,000 migrants in the city. now, it's over 100,000 new

migrants. how do we fix this? >> first of all, there are a couple things going on here. the mayor is absolutely right, communities like new york and across the southern border who are seeing thousands of migrants come into their borders need help from the federal government. this is a federal issue. that means not only money but actually fixing the broken immigration process and allowing migrants to work. it takes many months, i believe over six months to get a work permit if you're an asylum seeker. how is a city or community supposed to -- what are they supposed in the meantime? you have to provide not only food and shelter but pretty much all the needs until people can work. migrants have been forced to new york city and across the country to take jobs that are dangerous, whether construction or you see women on the subway with their babies, sometimes children who you hope to see in school instead. this is a humanitarian crisis. we should treat it at that. but i think that the mayor, i

understand his frustration toward the white house, toward congress. i do not love hearing him vilify people who have come to our shores, like many generations of americans before, seeking a better life. many from desperate situations, from countries that have collapsed. i want to say, this country needs immigrants. immigrants are the lifeblood of new york city, of america, and vilifying them is not only dangerous, but it really is a betrayal of what this country is meant to be about. i do not believe that that sentiment speaks for the majority of residents of new york city. this is a city that can handle this influx with some help. >> well, i mean, with some help, but also with some order. you just can't have immigrants coming on buses, undocumented immigrants coming on buses, just shipped in. if i were the mayor, i would be complaining to the federal government, as well.

fix this problem. it is a problem that's been going on for three years. i agree with mara completely. if you talk to small business owners, they would agree with mara completely. for anybody out there that is thinking, oh, my god, we can't absorb all of these immigrants, put on your dunce cap. just put it on. what we can't handle is the disorder, the chaos at the border, the chaos in the cities. we can't. but we can get congress to actually pass meaningful immigration reform. you know who would support that? republican small business owners, republican entrepreneurs, republicans who run family restaurants, republicans who run family hardware stores, republicans that run family businesses, republicans who are desperate to get workers, to get workers. they complain all the time everywhere i go. i've been asking this for two

years. you have half the tables empty here. i know the answer, but i want to hear them say it, workers." we have to shut down two days a week, three days a week, because we can't get enough workers in here. so, yes, yes, congress, you republicans, you would actually have small business owners thanking you if you would figure out a way to at least extend work visas to people who come to this country, go through a legal process, because of your reforms that you're passing. but you have to fund it. you know, rev, the thing is, it bothers me, these republicans keep thinking, oh, you know, if we don't do anything, if we don't pass immigration reform, if we don't help small family businesses, if we don't help small family restaurants, don't help silicon valley tech companies that desperately need high-tech immigrants, as well, with high-tech degrees, it's

going to help us in the next election. it doesn't. it didn't help them in 2018. remember, what were they saying, oh, these immigrants are coming with leprosy to america. you know, they have the vans all coming. oh, there's a convoy coming up. c.w. mccaul leading it. it's a bunch of illegal aliens, and they're going to destroy the country. democrats won big in 2020. they won big in 2018 when they said that. when they did it in 2020. they tried it again in 2022. it never works. since it never works, why don't you help your small business owners? why don't you help high-tech companies? why don't you help entrepreneurs? reform immigration and get these people working, rev. >> not only are you right, the point is that they've used these people, these migrants that are seeking a better life. they're not coming to america because they want to commit

crime or because they want to do anything. i agree, they ought not to be vilified. they're using them as political props. and don't even understand what they're doing doesn't help their politics. we can't get away from that. that's why i think the pressure has to be put on the congress and the federal government to correct this. when you have mayor adams, not only mayor adams, you have the mayor of chicago and the mayor of houston and others that are saying, "we can't handle this." the congress is trying to figure out, how do we get votes out of this? we're dealing with human beings, human beings that can help do work here that others are not doing, and that small businesses needed. they need these workers. we are overlooking all of that to try to play some petty politics. i think it's outrageous, and we need to put pressure on the congress and others to do at a federal level what clearly governors and others are playing politics with. >> i will say, though, new york

city is a resilient place. survived september 11th, super storm sandy, first waves of covid. i don't know this is what will destroy it. to your point about the mayor's overheated rhetoric. willie, a flashpoint between the democratic mayor of the biggest state in the country and the white house. adams and biden were tightal allies, but there will be divides. adams has been sharp on the white house approach on issues. >> relentlessly critical. meanwhile, rev, sadly, you are traveling today to jacksonville, florida, to do something you've had to do too many times, deliver a eulogy for someone shot and killed. this time, 52-year-old angela carr, doing nothing more than sitting outside the store when a racist shot and killed her. what message do you want to send at this funeral? >> i've done far too many of these victims of hate crimes,

victims of police abuse. what is so different to me about this one, we were literally marching in washington, tens of thousands of us, against hate crimes and against the impediments of being placed on voting rights. martin luther king iii, arndrea waters king, jonathan greenblatt of adl leading the march. over 100,000 people. when this happened, we were marching about hate crime. when we get to the end of the march, we hear about a shooting in jacksonville. later found out it was a hate crime. someone who wrote, a 21-year-old white supremacist wrote a manifesto saying he was a white supremacist. this has to stop. this is a 52-year-old woman with three kids who was an uber driver, had dropped her passenger. she got shot 11 times, two in the face. we can't even open the coffin today. >> geez. >> when her family asked me to come, attorney ben crump is handling them, i'm going to do the eulogy.

mckissic, who pastored a large church in bethel baptist, reverend green is coming to be with us, bishop frank green and others. we're calling for an end to hate crime. the governor who are booed, desantis, at a gathering, seems insensitive to the fact that the climate is so bad. nobody is saying the governor made this guy do it. the guy killed himself, and the guy was off. but the climate you're setting, we're trying to edit out black history from curriculums and trying to use people of color and gays as pawns. this climate helps to push people that are not well-balanced mentally to do things. and the gun laws. there was a confrontation with the governor and a man that went to his press conference yesterday, challenging him on the gun laws. a former veteran. he, rather than be sensitive --

i say something and people say, that was over the line. you could have handled it better, even if you're not responsible for the crime. at some point, you step back and say, wait a minute, let me analyze myself. this guy defends everything rather than, even in a moment that we're getting ready to bury innocent people, stop and reflect. i think the governor needs to start a new tone. jonathan greenblatt of adl is going to the funeral to show, we must stand together against all hate crime. because a week after this woman was killed and the other two were killed during the march, neo nazis marched in orlando, florida. if it's nero nazis with anti-semitism, it's shooting blacks at a store, we've got to deal with hate and we've got to deal with it together. >> reverend al, i know you have to catch a flight. thank you so much for coming on. >> thank you. >> thanks, rev. >> we'll be watching today. so we talked about how democrats are raising red flags over new cnn polls that show voters are concerned about

president biden's age and had him statistically tied with several gop hopefuls. biden's approval rating stood at 39%. just 74% among democrats. here's the reaction from longtime democratic strategist james carville. >> the polls are not -- look, they're not great. it tells us that, you know, voters are expressing some apprehension here. it's pretty clear. i mean, it's not much else you can say when you look at them. i mean, i guess the best thing you can say, if anything, they're worse for trump. but there is an apprehension out there. that's undeniable. the polling i've seen, anybody else has seen, is not very good. there was a memo, friend jim messina said democrats need to stop bedwetting.

wife already had me rub the sheets. >> goodness. >> okay, joe. you take that. >> bedwetting reference. >> i'll say, things happened pretty -- wel -- >> uh-oh. >> i'm just thinking about the sheets. >> okay. joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor -- >> no, no, no, hold on. i'm not done yet. >> really, you are. >> let's talk to mike barnicle. come on in, mike. >> mike is here. >> let's talk, mike. >> mike, please. >> so when this show began -- we're going to leave james and his sheets behind -- and let's talk about when the show began. we spent the first summer talking about the matchup between hillary clinton and rudy giuliani in 2008. we saw what happened there. neither one of them made it. we were talking, like everybody was talking, "the new york times" was talking at this time, like "the washington post," "the wall street journal," everybody else was talking at this time in

2007 about the end of john mccain's campaign. there was no way he could win. of course, he came back and won the republican nomination. and ronald reagan in 1983, early 1983, he had a 38% approval rating. ended up winning 49 states the next year. i'm not saying joe biden is going to do that. he's not. but, again, i will say, the whining and the bedwetting and everything else that is going on there is sort of preposterous. we have a long way to go. >> we do have a long way to go, joe, but just the references of time that you just eluded to, 2008 and stuff like that, that seems like 500 years ago. given what's happened, not to our politics but to our political culture. it's a completely different ball game today than it was in 2008. even in 2012, completely different. i mean, the level of animosity,

of hatred, literally hatred toward one another, if you happen to belong to one party or another party, what it's done to the country. the fact that textbooks in grammar schools is now as big an issue as ukraine is to many people who will be voting next year. all sorts of oddball things like that have been infecting our politics. i think that's the biggest difference. i think it is one that will be hard to overcome. it is going to require a lot of work on both the voters and the people running for office, to think about what's happened to this country, to urge peace, to try to get the country back, to reclaim part of who we are as a democracy. because democracy is on the ballot next year. not just the presidency. >> that is for sure. let's also bring in pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson.

and "new york times" opinion columnist charles blow. good to have you back on the show. your latest piece for "the times" is entitled, "dignified silence doesn't work against trump." you write in part this, this reluctance to take on trump has allowed him and his surrogates to develop a narrative of victimhood and justified vengeance, while allowing the image of timidity and weakness to harden around his opponents like plaster. with this failure to engage this campaign of cowardice, republican voters already primed by trump to disbelieve facts and believe conspiracy theories are robbed of any debate that could help modulate their views. but not only are most of trump's republican rivals avoiding attacking him over his various indictments, so is his democratic one. joe biden refuses to comment on them.

he and his campaign have chosed chosen to keep their chaos and not feed into trump's false assertion that his legal woes originate from political animus. most of trump's opponents, republican and democratic, are placing a risky bet, one that completely depends on the discernment of the american voter. that may, in the end, prove to be a brilliant tactical assessment, but i worry that it's just as likely to be a tragic miscalculation. i tend to agree with you, charles. i worry that so much has gone by with this former president, unaccounted for. i know the justice takes a long time, but there are moral norms that he has broken, that have just been left hanging out there. now, we have mini trumps in the republican party also running for president. >> yes, and they've been

running. you know, trump, at least, has been running since the time he left office. i think that we -- a lot of traditional politicians seem to think that there is a political season, right? that the time is going to come when we'll actually engage, when we'll actually put up the political ads, when we'll actually release our surrogates, and that will come a year, nine months out from the election day. that paradigm is already gone. that is not how politics has worked anymore. you know, trump is creating for himself a new reality by attacking, constantly, joe biden, hunter biden. his surrogates are also making him into a martyr. i watched fox news and listened to fox radio because i thought i was going to write a column for this, for two weeks after the federal indictment of donald trump. this is another world.

this is -- there is no parallel to it. people say, well, if the rest of the media was doing their job, you'd counter this. there is no countering this because that's a whole other world. it is not full of reporting as we normally come to understand it. there is some reporting in it, but it is really another world that is advancing a campaign narrative. that information trickles down to people who are just living their lives. any cable news show, the great ones, are receiving about 3 or 4 million viewers. there were 155 million voters last time in 2020. how does the information trickle down to those people? a little bit at a time over long periods of time. it is not confined just to a campaign season. >> in that parallel media universe, gene robinson, as you know, the victims are donald trump. the victims are his 18 co-defendants in georgia. the victims are the leaders of

the oath keepers and the people who -- the proud boys who went to the capitol. they are the victims being prosecuted by this biden administration. that's the narrative that has taken hold. but as charles says in his column, about how the biden white house and the biden campaign should handle all of this, it's not like we're talking about personal scandal with donald trump and it's too tawdry and we're just going to talk about the economy. as charles write, we're talking about the foundations of our democracy. this man who led an attempted coup against the government, this man who took classified documents with military secrets back to his beach club with him, this is bedrock stuff. at some point, joe biden and his campaign will have to confront. >> well, i think charles is absolutely right. the campaign ought to be confronting this already. you know, the way you get a message across is you say it over and over again, and sometimes you say it in a loud voice.

it's certainly time for that. for that not just to begin but, you know, it should have been going on for a while. now, there is a problem for president biden himself. it is a problem for a sitting president to weigh in and opine on an ongoing criminal case. >> right. >> so that's understandable. i think that's proper. you know, i use the word proper as if we're in an age of propriety, but we're not. but, in fact, that is the right thing to do. but his campaign, his campaign surrogates, the campaign media, certainly should be pointing out that this is a probably soon-to-be convicted felon. he's up on, what is it, 90 something, 90 separate federal felony counts in all these various cases.

there is a reason for all of that. the reason is this rampant criminality that we've seen from donald trump. so, yeah, that ought to be a central theme of the campaign. cracking that alternate information world is one of the great problems for our democracy to try to solve. we haven't figured out how to solve it yet. >> yeah. that's definitely for sure. the disinformation out there. jonathan lemire, it also may be that the campaign is holding their powder and waiting to see. there are, what, five different, six different legal cases rolling toward closing in on this former president. and, you know, as days go by, the former president gets bad news on many of these. i mean, there are so many counts against him, the possibility

that he is innocent of all of them, i mean, i've even seen hosts on fox news go, really? like, he's not guilty on all of this? so i think there is a strategy to waiting a little bit, to see what happens, and let the law play out. >> yeah. those in the white house and closest to president biden's re-election effort, they leave the door open to changing tactics down the road. they say the president himself will not speak about the legal issues. he'll talk in loftier terms. they're planning another speech about threats to democracy in the coming weeks, but he'll stay out of the particulars of the cases. they think some democrats will be empowered to do so later this year or early next. there are some in the party who think it might be too late. elections are often won in the offseason, the year before, as you define your opponent. everyone knows donald trump. there is a lot of finger pointing and some concern as to what to do. charles, part of the white house's theory of the case is they don't have to do it because others will. they think, in particular, that

next year, when these cases actually go to trial and there is nonstop news coverage of donald trump in a courtroom, even if it is just the one, the federal election interference case in d.c., the one that seems to be built to move the quickest, they think that will drive home the point to suburban voters, independent voters, look, we can't go down this path again and elect this man again. is that not aggressive enough? >> think about what you just said, what eugene just said, like, the president can't engage because it's an active investigation. at what point does the person who is running, literally running on a platform of defending and protecting democracy, not engage on the biggest threat to that democracy? it is likely that there will be litigation all the way through the election. are we saying that the president of the united states, who is running against a guy who is the greatest threat to democracy, will not be able to engage on

the issue, on the fact that this person he is running against, if he ends up being the republican nominee, he cannot say that this person is indicted on all of these counts? it seems insane to me. i think we're living or trying to operate as if things are normal when they are absolutely not normal. and the former president has signalled in every possible way that if he ever gets back to the white house, he will break the norms completely. he has said that he would like to suspend parts of the constitution. conservative groups like the heritage foundation are leading a charge to draw up plans right now that would make it possible for donald trump on day one to start to dismantle the federal government. i don't understand what we're saying here. i don't understand what we're saying. that we're holding the powder dry, that we are -- that there

is another time we're going to be able to do it, that there is a season that's going to come that's close to election day when all of this will change, our strategies will change, the surrogates will step in and do the work the president can't do? it seems crazy to me on some level to think that there's time to get this right. >> yeah. you know, everything that charles just said, let me just say, amen. because, mara, if i am running for office and i'm running against a guy who has stolen nuclear secrets, i'm going to go, "hi, my opponent stole nuclear secrets. i'm joe scarborough. great to talk to you. my opponent stole war plans with iran, showed them to his political director, and then told her, i'm not supposed to show this to you. i could declassify it if it were still president of the united states but i'm not so i can't declassify it."

i'd then say, "he also called the secretary of state of georgia -- a trumper, guy who voted for donald trump -- and said, steal the election for me. it's on tape." listen, these are not normal times. joe biden doesn't have to say, i've been talking to the justice department. he can say, listen, i'm not communicating with them. they do their thing, i do my thing. but i can read the newspapers. i can watch tv. >> mm-hmm. >> i can tell you, the guy i'm running against said that when he gets elected, he's going to tear down the federal government, just like they promised to do last time. he said he is going to arrest people. he said he is going to suspend the constitution. he's already stolen nuclear secrets. let's see, what else do you want to know about my opponent?

i mean, i do agree with charles. how do you run against a guy that stole nuclear secrets and not say to people you're campaigning against, "here's your choice, me or the guy that stole nuclear secrets"? [ laughter ] >> the guy who said the second he becomes president, he's going to start arresting people. that guy right there, who also said that he'd terminate the constitution. how do you not say that? we are not playing by marcus of queensbury rules anymore when we're fighting for the very survival of american democracy, are we? >> i mean, it's like bringing a bottle of wine to a gunfight. and i think there's just -- >> right. >> -- an element here of what charles is saying, is you have to stand up to a bully. you have to stand up to a bully.

donald trump is essentially, i believe, depending on democrats, on the president, acting like this is just business as usual. so the silence speaks volumes. the silence becomes the elephant in the room. well, it's actually not accomplishing what i think the president and democrats need it to accomplish. also, i feel as somebody who has written about politics for many years now, that if you don't tell your own story, you allow someone else to tell it for you. so why you would allow your opponent to define the issues and the story in this race is -- i just think it is malpractice politically. i certainly understand the president's reluctance to speak on an ongoing criminal investigation, but, as you said, joe, nobody is asking him to weigh in on updates from the justice department. >> right, yeah. i'll tell ya what it reminds me

of, barnicle, reminds me of mike dukakis. george bush running around, and dukakis says, ah, i'm not going to respond. he pushes his lawn mower, not a gas powered, one of the self-mowers across the lawn, having a regular guy. goes like this in the polls. next day, bush goes to a flag factory. dukakis, ah, i'm not going to answer it. pushes his lawn mower. polls go down even more. the next day, like, bush, like, they tear him to shreds. he's saying, i'm not going to respond. i'm not going to do it. of course, we know bernard shaw asks the question in the debate. he's like, ah, ah. >> okay. >> i'm not going to respond.

you have to respond! listen, i always told my family, like my mom, joey, why are they so mean to you when you're running for office? i go, ma, if you want me to be an insurance defense lawyer, i can be an insurance defense lawyer, right? i can work for geico. i can work for state farm. you know, they'll bill out at $75 an hour for the firm. i can do that. but if i step into the ring, they're going to try to knock my head off. and you can't take that personally because i'm in the ring. it's my job to not get my head knocked off. so they're in the arena. biden is in the arena. mike, this is not about joe biden just standing up to a bully. this is about joe biden standing up for american democracy.

it's time to fight. it's time to engage. it's time to tell the truth about this guy stealing nuclear secrets. trying to steal the election. saying he is going to terminate the constitution. and saying that the second he gets elected, he's going to take over the fcc to take tv shows off that he doesn't like. and to start arresting people. it's, like, he's got to engage. >> well, joe, first of all, thanks for that walk down memory lane. i can assure you -- >> way back. >> -- mike dukakis is still alive and well, living on perry street in brookline, massachusetts, and i guarantee you, he still has that push mower. he's probably still using that. >> i like that. >> but to your larger point, i have no doubt that when the time comes, and it will come, that joseph r. biden is fully capable and willing to take this thing

right down to the sidewalk level, which is where it belongs. i have no doubt that joseph r. biden from stranton, pennsylvania, wilmington, delaware, will look into the camera, into his opponent's eyes and say something like, "you know, i live in the white house. in a very few months, my opponent is going to be living in the big house doing five to seven on federal counts that he's going to be found guilty of. i have no doubt." he'll take that on willingly, eagerly and successfully. >> gene robinson, mara brought up a great point about donald trump calculating joe biden will be too afraid to go after him. reminds me of something i read in the beginning of the russian invasion, after russia invaded ukraine. i wanted to just sort of get my arms around what was going on. i actually read a book by dr. brzezinski from 1993, talking

about the character of the soviet union. it was fascinating. but it reminded me so much of what we were saying about vladimir putin. the soviet union knew they couldn't win by playing the rules the way they're usually played. the soviet union had to be the great disrupter of world order, because they'd never compete with us militarily. they would never compete with us economically. they'd never compete with us politically. they would never compete with us socially. dr. brzezinski said they lost by a landslide on all those measures, so they had to disrupt. they had to be disrupters, just like putin now. he wants to disrupt the world order. well, that's donald trump. donald trump won in 2016 by being the great disrupter, while marco rubio and all these other people were just staring at him shocked, not believing what he was able to say. he's a disruptor. if you play by marcus of queensbury rules, freeze on the

debate stage, he will beat you. biden has to disrupt. he can't play by marcus of queensbury rules. that's what trump and the republicans think he's going to do. >> well, look, it's true, you have to stand up to the bully. you've got to, you know, punch him in the nose. and, no, not by marcus of queensbury rules. i do think we should remember, you know, joe biden didn't back down from donald trump in 2020. in fact, joe biden got elected president. so he does know how to do this. you know, it is a different situation now, he's the incumbent, bringing all the advantages and disadvantages of incumbency. there are disadvantages in terms of what a sitting president is

going to say about an ongoing criminal justice case. there just is. there's a limit there, and that's -- you can transgress that and say, well, this is an emergency and we need to, but i think there are ways, without doing that, to frontally and loudly attack donald trump. >> absolutely. >> take the fight to him. yes, that has to be done. and, yes, it needs to start now. it should have started months ago. but, yeah, you've got to go after him. >> you know -- >> you've got to do it. >> there's so much, gene, to your point, material to work with. i mean, doesn't have to be president biden, but it can be democrats in general. i mean, okay, nuclear secrets, as joe brought up, or stealing election, if that's boring for you, if you're desensitized to that, how about, would you really vote for a guy who is

stupid enough, first of all, to get sued for defamation and sexual abuse, to be found liable on both of those charges, and then be stupid enough to defame e. jean carroll again and to keep losing in court to her? maybe take a note from e. jean carroll and keep coming back at him and calling him out for his vicious, disgusting behavior on a humanity point of view. >> mika, also, not just the stupidity, but -- >> so stupid. >> -- the judge said donald trump was a rapist. >> correct. >> the judge said donald trump raped her. the judge said that by any definition used by the u.s. army, used by the american medical association, used by any

other organization, donald trump was a rapist. i think people might want to hear that, and they may want to hear that he stole nuclear secrets. they may want to hear from joe biden that he's been charged with stealing secret war plans. i mean, these are very relevant to who the next president of the united states should and should not be. >> "new york times" columnist charles blow, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," fulton county district attorney fani willis tears into republican congressman jim jordan, telling him, "you lack a basic understanding of the law." we'll have the latest from that fight and the sprawling georgia election interference case. plus, a growing number of school districts across the country are embracing new schedules. we'll have reporting on the pros and cons of a four-day school

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done settling? ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. learn how abbvie could help you save. beautiful, live picture of the white house. 7:35 on a friday morning. gene, you have a piece in "the washington post" titled, "mitch mcconnell is indispeindispensab. here's the problem with that." mitch mcconnell froze up again, leading to concerns about his leadership. what is the problem with him being indispensable? >> yeah, i mean, the problem with him being indispensable is, look, i am not a big mitch mcconnell fan in terms of what he has done to this country. he is the individual probably most responsible for the hard right majority on the supreme court, because of his machinations with supreme court

nominees, the way he kept barack obama from appointing merrick garland. wouldn't even hold a hearing. kept that seat open for nearly a year. when justice ginsburg died, rushes amy coney barrett through the confirmation process in, like, a weekend. without those two seats having gone to the far right, roe v. wade would still be the law of the land. it'd still be a constitutional right to abortion. we probably wouldn't have gutted affirmative action, and we wouldn't have a majority of the court trying to march us back to the 19th century. but that was then, and this is now. so i kind of couldn't believe i was writing those words, but mitch mcconnell is the adult in the -- on the republican side of the capitol right now. the house is in disarray with

the republican majority, with kevin mccarthy, the speaker, beholden to the freedom caucus, the looney bin caucus, this caucus, that caucus, and unable, really, to do anything substantive or to collaborate in the act of governing. so on a senate side, you have a different story. you have mcconnell, an institutionalist, who is a conservative republican but a traditional republican who supports continued aid for ukraine, a muscular u.s. foreign policy, who wants to keep the government running, who doesn't want a shutdown, who is a transactional politician who gets things done and will get things done with the president, with president biden. that's why he has become indispensable. i think everyone who cares about this country and how it

functions is concerned when you see him, his health problems that he's obviously having, and you also see that he has no successor. there's nobody in place who is just going to pick that up. >> and some of those members, as you term it, the looney bin caucus over in the house, among republicans, are some who are sort of eyeing mitch mcconnell's seat potentially if he does decide not to run again. gene robinson, we'll be reading your piece in "the washington post." thanks so much. have a great weekend. president biden is currently on his way to an important gathering of global economic leaders. the 18th g20 summit, set to begin tomorrow in new delhi, india. the president departed joint base andrews on air force one just after 5:00 eastern time yesterday. when he arrives this morning, the president will meet with indian prime minister narendra modi at his residence. the stakes here, jonathan lemire, are what for president biden? >> they're pretty high on two

different fronts. one, of course, is to try to continue to urge the world to rally around ukraine as it tries to propel ukraine's invasion. vladimir putin will not be there, but russia will have a presence at the g20. they're still a member. this is a moment for the president to make his argument about how the united states' allies, that that's the best alternative for security and prosperity for the rest of the world opposed to china. he is framing this as this rivalry with beijing. xi jinping, the president of china, also skipping this meeting. there's some hopes the two men can meet in november at a further summit. this is a moment where biden is going to make the case in asia, in beijing's backyard, to the global south, to the developing world, including india which, of course, has a booming economy of its own, that this is the way to go. go with the democracies and our alliances and the rules-based order opposed to dealing with beijing. also, the economy has been a central focus of the biden presidency, much like it was for one of his predecessors 91 years

ago. >> i pledge myself to a new deal for the american people. [ applause ] give me your help not to win votes alone but to win in this crusade to restore america to its own people. >> that was franklin d. roosevelt during his acceptance speech at the 1932 democratic national convention, after the collapse of the american financial system. roosevelt made reigning in wall street part of his campaign against hoover. president roosevelt would implement sweeping overhauls to the regulatory system. those reforms are the subject of the new book entitled, "taming the street: the old guard, the new deal and fdr's fight to

regulate american capitalism." joining us now, its author, diana henriquez. great to have you on the show. >> thank you, mika. >> congratulations on the book. talk about taming the street, what he did and what needs to happen today. >> well, roosevelt understood that we can't have a strong knock without a fair economy. that's why the slate of financial reforms he worked for was central to the new deal. he'd gone through the 1920s. he came of age in the 1920s when the financial landscape was a jungle. unsafe for ordinary american investors. he knew the damage that an unregulated marketplace could do and came to office making it clear that he was going to change that. >> he made sweeping changes. >> absolutely. put a cop on wall street for the first time with the creation of the s.e.c. in 1934. required corporations to tell the truth when they sell stock. my goodness, in 1933,

strengthened the federal reserve. created the fdic to ensure our bank savings and prevent the run of bank failures that confronted him the day he was sworn in. so it was -- it's amazing to me that this story has been so long obscured. now, of course, fdr had a very long term, and he ended it leading us topowers, so there'so tell about fdr, but this story is one we need to remember. because the old guard hasn't given up. they're still trying to deregulate and will be trying for the coming years, so it is important that voters understand what's at stake. >> mike? >> diana, part of what you're writing about, a large part of what you're writing about, is an era in american history, in the american presidency of franklin

roosevelt, to '38, where the thought of things happening today is unfathomable, given what he did. not only the s.e.c. and the renovations he provided, but also, you know, the tennessee valley authority, things like that. social security. could you imagine? have you thought about why this country seems to have lost its sense of history? >> well, i don't understand why democrats are not more eloquent about claiming this heritage that you're talking about, mike. this is their political legacy. they are descendents of the most progressive administration almost in this country's history, and you almost never hear them say, in the footsteps of franklin roosevelt, in keeping with the legacy of franklin roosevelt. i wish they would. i hope that they will because i think that is a very strong legacy to take to the american people. roosevelt was committed to protecting the average guy, the

average investor, the ordinary investor overwhelmed by the plutocracy of the 1920s. protecting our land. protecting electric power, expanding it out into the dark corners of the country. it was an astonishing accomplishment, but it was accomplished through leadership that fdr brought to bare. i think that leadership is still within reach. i agree that it was a very ambitious agenda. today's congress is very different congress than the one fdr inherited after the '32 election. but he went on to an even greater victory in 1936 because of what he had done. not just because he did it, but because he told the american people he'd done it. he told them what he was going to do next and what remained to be done. so i think communication, as you folks were talking about earlier this morning. >> the messaging.

>> communication is so essential on this. >> as you're saying that democrats haven't talked about the legacy of fdr. marjorie taylor greene used that as a criticism of joe biden, saying he is like fdr, and the white house turning it into an ad, like, yes, i am like fdr, accepting that gladly. given the headwinds you write about, this was no cakewalk for fdr to get this through. democrats were pushing back on him. what echoes do you see for today, for joe biden, who has passed massive pieces of legislation, digging us out of the hole that was the pandemic, infrastructure investments, many of the same things fdr invested in, as well. how does he get that message out the way fdr did? >> i think it is important to get the message to american voters that this battle isn't over. you know, the old guard hasn't stopped fighting to dismantle the protections of the new deal. you know, nobody arguing for

deregulation today has ever lived in a deregulated market. fdr had. he knew what it was like. i think if people understood that their savings, their 401(k), their bank accounts, all of that was protected by a machinery that was put in place and must be sustained, it will be dismantled if we don't protect it. it will be. donald trump in his state of the union in 2018 bragged he'd eliminated more regulation than any administration in history. maybe that wasn't true, but it was true that he was very hostile to business regulations. so are the rich guys who are wining and dining our supreme court justices. we have a couple of cases moving through the courts that are -- that pose existential threats to our regulatory machinery. so i think the message that has to come through is, this fight isn't over. if you like banks that don't

fail and cost you all your savings, if you like being able to trust the price you see for your stock out of the new york stock exchange, then sustain these reforms. hang on to them. make them stronger. >> all right. the book is entitled "taming the street: the old guard, the new deal and fdr's fight to regulate american capitalism." diana henriquez, thank you for joining us. congratulations on the book. >> thanks, diana. >> amazing. coming up, the u.s. military is now struggling to meet its recruitment goals. we'll break down those numbers and speak with an officer in the u.s. marine corps who says he knows why members of the gen-z aren't enlisting. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time.

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52 past the hour. the u.s. military is struggling to recruit the nation's next generation of service members. those from gen z. the army is expected to be 15,000 recruits short of its 2023 goal. the navy projects it will fall 10,000 short, and the air force, 3,000 recruits below its goal. our next guest wrote a book on why a career in the military is not appealing to younger americans. it's entitled "we don't want you, uncle sam," examining the military recruiting crisis with generation z. joining us now is the book's author, matthew weiss. he's an officer in the u.s. marine corps, and joe has the first question for you. >> matthew, thank you so much for your service. god bless you, and we really appreciate -- i appreciate you

writing this book too because, you know, i will talk about how i don't like people in politics tearing down our military for political purposes. other people say it's too woke. it's too this, it's too that, but you look at your book and it's really complicated, and a lot of the challenges start with the generational -- let me talk about what you said. gen z is the most anxious and depressed generation as complex life takes its toll. there's more reported loneliness and suicide is the second highest cause of death for gen z. so a lot of it has to do with mental health challenges? >> yeah. thank you so much for having me, and when i looked at my generation, my impetus for writing the book, i basically thought, i am gen z.

i have to speak for my generation. we get a lot of flak from our elders, and i have to think about why is gen z on joining? you point out mental health. that is a huge reason. we are struggling. we are the first generation that came into elementary school with social media, with iphones. the constant pinging of likes, the social feedback of comments, on instagram, on facebook. that causes a big mental health gap, and so as a generation, we're struggling to sort of find our identity, and to ask our generation to serve is becoming a bigger and bigger challenge. so i wrote the book hopefully to shed light on this idea and explain ways that as a military and as a society, we can come together again, really unite as an american generation, as an american society, and encourage and promote service. so i offer a lot of solutions in the book of things that society and the military can do to really bring people together. >> matthew, good morning. i would echo joe's sentiments.

thanks for all you've given to the country and your commitment to this cause as well. my question is what changes this trajectory we're on? as i just said and mika just read, the recruitment goals are missing by about 25% across branches outside the marine corps. what changes this? this phone's not going away. social media's not going anywhere. the anxiety kids feel in so many different ways probably not going away any time soon. how do you reverse this trend downward in military recruitment? >> absolutely. so that's the impetus of the thing we're all trying to figure out, and in short, it won't be one solution, but it will be a compilation of many. one of the big things i talk about -- i like to bring the business background, bring some business principles. modern 21st century management to this old military bureaucracy. we're no longer the world war ii 1940s era army. we have to modernize the way we

do things. one poignant example, if you want to get a job in the private sector, you get hired and you can usually start one or two weeks later. it's an easy process. in the military, a kid joins or signs up out of high school and sometimes it takes three months going through this extremely long meps process, and dilapidated, old style health checks. it's not a fictionless process. people are turned away just in that process alone. that's one example. there's other examples of increasing performance-based pay. if you are a better squad leader, a better machine gunner than the person next to you, can you get a little bit of a bonus? maybe not 90% of your salary, but a small 5% or 10% bonus, the incentives that gen z expects of their workplace. these are a few ideas in a few areas on the requirements and perception side that we can do to really modernize the

ascension process and promote service among gen z. >> so matthew, when did you enlist and how old were you when you enlisted, and why did you enlist? >> absolutely. it's a great question. i commissioned as an officer just a year and a half ago. so my experience with the military is extremely fresh. my experience with recruitment is extremely fresh, and for myself, i give the reason that i think echoes a lot of gen z sentiments, i have internal and external reasons. internally, like many people in the past, patriotic and wanting to serve the nation. a lot of have that, but externally, i looked at the military as the single best investment in my career. it's the single best leadership factory that we have in this country that exists in the world and i wanted to learn how to lead and i looked at that as an investment in myself, and a lot of gen z-ers have a lot of similar desire to better themselves, to find places to better themselves in a very

difficult, changing world, and the need to have and be okay with saying, hey. my reason for joining is too get this benefit or my reason for joining is to better myself in this way or that way even if patriotism isn't the number one reason. we can encourage people. >> reporter: -- for other various reasons. even connection. we struggle for connection and we're very social. the military is the greatest physical social network that provides those key bonds and connections you can't get anywhere else in any other job or any other sector of society. >> well said. the book is entitled "we don't want you, uncle sam: examining the military recruiting crisis with generation z." it's available now. matthew weiss, thank you for being on today, and thank you so much for your service. we appreciate it. >> thank you so much for having me. up next, former trump adviser, peter navarro gets convicted for contempt of congress as the january 6th

investigation. we'll go over what happened in court yesterday, and what he had to say after that guilty verdict, but before that, willie. what do you have planned for sunday today? >> we've got huge stuff. >> what is it? >> the biggest thing in muse ig -- music right now, olivia rodrigo. the album came out eight hours ago, rocketing to number one. she's got the single "vampire" out. this is two years after she exploded with "driver's license" and "deja vu." she's three times platinum and playing a massive concert across the street this morning. when she steps off that stage, i'll sit down with her and we'll bring you that on "sunday today" on nbc. the third hour of "morning joe" starts right now. >> we knew going in what the verdict was going to be. that's why this is going to the appeals court, and we feel --

look. i said from the beginning this is going to the supreme court. i said from the beginning i am willing to go to prison to settle this issue. i'm willing to do that, but i also know that the likelihood of me going to prison is relatively small because we are right on this issue. >> former trump white house adviser peter navarro showing loyalty to a man who rarely reciprocates that kind of commitment. it comes as donald trump's defense team floats a new strategy in his georgia election interference case, moving it to federal court. we'll get an expert legal analysis on this development in just a moment. meanwhile, the fulton county d.a. did not hold back in her response to republican congressman and trump ally, jim jordan. she is accusing the ohio lawmaker of trying to obstruct her case.

a lot to get to. for the first time ever, a group of 13 presidential centers dating back a century is calling for a recommitment to the country's bedrock principles. in a joint statement, the coalition said, americans should respect diverse beliefs, noting that debate and disagreement are central to democracy. it reads in part, quote. our elected officials must lead by example and govern effectively in ways that deliver for the american people. this in turn will help to restore trust in public service. the rest of us must engage in civil dialogue, respect democratic institutions and rights, uphold safe, secure, and accessible elections, and contribute to local, state, or national improvement. the coalition does not name any elected officials, but there appear to be there a subtle

rebuke of donald trump who is accused of trying to overturn the 2020 presidential election. the statement was signed by every presidential organization from herbert hoover's to barack obama's. only the eisenhower foundation is missing in this. so definitely a firm statement about the strength of democracy, joe. >> yeah. jon meacham, there's been some complaining. you've heard some people i know, and i have too, wondering where some of these presidents are, with some of of these former presidents coming out and speaking forcefully against trumpism, against what happened on january the 6th and the threats of democracy moving forward. this is a step in that direction, isn't it? >> it is, and, you know, most of these -- the presidential libraries where the presidents are still around, you know, where the principle is still

there are different than the ones obviously with legacy operations. what's remarkable about this is you have a -- i wouldn't even call it bipartisan. i would call it suprapartisan -- a suprapartisan statement, that yes, democracy strong. i think more interesting is what -- why they had to do it. it's that democracy is weak. it's resilient, but it is under siege, and these are the scholars, the foundation executives, and the presidents themselves who understand the inherent fragility of these institutions, and i think that it's -- it says a great deal, you know, if you do what i do for a living, you go back and you look at what was being said at a given time, you know,

looking at the front page of the newspapers to see what the other stories were. the fact that 13 former presidential institutions had to say, hey, democracy's important, pay attention to it, tells you a great deal about where we are on this early autumn morning. >> well, a couple of things, jon, that strike me, certainly the presidents that are still alive who served in that office from 19 -- january of '93 to january of 2017, obviously their presidential libraries would not have come out and done anything without their support. >> right. >> or their approval. and of course, jimmy carter's as well. the second thing too is i found at times people going to the reagan library and saying things that would make ronald reagan roll over in his grave. >> yeah. >> claiming the mantel of reagan conservatism when it's as far

away from reagan on certain views as humanly possible. from trade to even guns at the end. it's certainly ukraine. so it's very interesting that while they're not being specifically ideological on one point or another, there is no doubt that when you go speak at the reagan library, the reagan library's made it very clear that they do not support what is going on in the trump wing of the republican party. >> you know, two important things happened this week on this front. the statement that we're talking about, and that speech that mike pence gave where he -- >> yep. >> -- seems to have just discovered donald trump's not great for america, but as we've said before, joe, we're in the conversion business, right?

>> amen. >> it doesn't matter. whenever you get here, we'll take you, and basically arguing that you can choose between trump and you can choose between classical conservatism, and that's, to me, an unquestionable thing, and so the great, great issue here is who's listening and where i get some hope in this is it doesn't take that many of us to -- >> right. >> -- tip this in the right direction, right? these are incredibly close elections. we're talking about -- numbers are not my strong suit -- a couple of million people in five states. let's say you reached 10,000 of those people. the people saw something, realized something, started thinking, you know what? maybe we shouldn't follow a cult personality off a constitutional cliff. if so, that's a good week, and

you start again next week because that's what all these presidents also understand is that democracy's incredibly hard work. >> yeah. it's fragile. >> we're talking about tiny margins. take the example that's been in front of us with donald trump just over 11,000 votes in the state of georgia in 2020, the ones he was trying to flip back. let's talk about everything going on around the former president in the context of this conversation. the former white house adviser peter navarro, an adviser to trump, contempt of court for ignoring a subpoena from congress. it took the jury just four hours to find navarro guilty on both counts he faced for refusing to testify before the committee and refusing to turn over requested documents. the trial lasted only two days. navarro's legal team did not present any witness testimony or evidence. navarro had planned on mounting a defense claiming he was bound by executive privilege. he said former president trump told him not to cooperate with

the committee, but the judge rejected that argument in a pretrial argument last week. sentencing set for january 12th now. he has repeatedly called this a landmark case based on separation of powers. >> people like me, senior white house advisers, alter egos of the president cannot be compelled -- cannot be compelled to testify before congress. absolute. yet they brought the case. >> after the verdict, navarro's attorney called for a mistrial claiming the jury was exposed to protesters during a break and they returned the guilty verdict shortly afterward. the judge would not rule on that right away telling navarro to file a motion to be considered at a later time. there are so many pieces of this trump spectacle that we have been witnessing. how important is peter navarro to all of it? number one, the green bay sweep is the play he designed the try

to get mike pence to flip the election, and not certify it anyway. how does it fit into the larger puzzle of everything swirling arnold? >> just as an aside, the fact that the january 6th committee, even though it no longer exists, that their subpoena of authority is upheld is really significant, right? you know, this is more than a year since it's all been litigated and he's finally being, you know, held to account for his willful default and not showing up for the subpoena. there is no widespread immunity to just defy a congressional subpoena. i think the fact this did go to trial and, you know, he was convicted by a jury at about the same time it probably took for coco gauff to have a break is pretty significant, but it does fit into the wider set of things. the grand jury in d.c. is still meeting, you know, it's still taking evidence in the federal january 6th case. the green bay sweep as you say was this in trump's case to

overturn the election, and that was probably the most covert and most insidious because it comes in from different angles and the fact this is coming back down again is significant in that sense. >> he faces real jail time. he'll be sentenced in january, up to two years? >> bannon was sentenced to jail, right? he's out right now pending appeal, but this is a dumb crime. >> really dumb. >> if you are going to be convicted of a crime, maybe rob a bank and get rich on the side. this is, you know -- >> not showing up. moving onto fulton county now, the district attorney fani willis is accusing one of donald trump's top allies in congress of trying to obstruct her case. in a scathing letter yesterday, the d.a. blasted house judiciary committee chairman jim jordan for his efforts to investigate her state probe following trump's indictment in georgia last month. the ohio republican asked willis to turn over all documents related to her case which jordan

claims is politically motivated. in response, the d.a. wrote in part, yesterday, this. your attempt to invoke congressional authority to intrude upon and interfere with an active criminal case in georgia is flagrantly at odds with the constitution. your letter makes clear that you lack a basic understanding of the law, its practice and the ethical obligations of attorneys generally and prosecutors specifically. its obvious purpose is to obstruct a georgia criminal proceeding and to advance outrageous partisan misrepresentations. i tell people often, deal with reality or reality will deal with you. it is time that you deal with some basic realities. a special purpose grand jury made up of everyday citizens

investigated for ten months and made recommendations to me. for a more thorough understanding of georgia's rico statute, its application, and similar laws in other states, i encourage you to read rico state by state as a nonmember of the bar. you can purchase a copy for $249. ouch. jordan's office has not responded to a request for comment by nbc news. i think -- i think she's a little fed up with him. rightfully so, jim jordan. most people are. >> a great line there at the end, and certainly for the proof she's up for this fight. one that is a legal one to be sheer, and there's real doubt as to whether or not the trump preece of it anyway can come to trial before the election which i think a lot of people are concerned about because it will be on television and people can actually see. also, this moment underscores the efforts by republicans to try to sabotage him, and we have had that from the beginning that

this house gop in particular, trying to play really fast with just the law and their own authority to try to whether it's defund the jack smith investigation or now even put their fingers in a state matter. that's dangerous stuff. >> well, it's a slow roll way to support this conspiracy that we have -- are now finally seeing prosecuted. that's what's so scary. what happened on january 6th didn't just happen on that one day, and i think what you are seeing in congress right now from republicans who are really willing to throw democracy umpbd -- under the bus, and some of our institutions under the bus, this is about power at all costs and they're going to protect their number one guy who remains donald trump for whatever reason. >> yeah. >> still. >> still can't let go, and i have to think donald trump and his accolades, his advisers, his supporters, have really taken

advantage of the fact that this is so unprecedented in american history that i think there's been a sense that, well, surely our institutions will stand. it doesn't take the rest of us to break these norms to stand up to them, but i think what you are starting to see, and you see this with, you know, the prosecution of the january 6th conspirators, the leaders this past week. you see it as well with navarro's conviction, and now you're seeing it with just the d.a. really just putting out a very strong statement which is that there needs to be pushback. the pushback needs to be forceful, and i think there needs to be a collective sense that we're fed up with this kind of behavior, and we're going to protect democracy, and you're seeing that, and that's really heartening, but it's still disturbing that jim jordan who represents quite a block -- let's just say. >> yeah. >> is willing to throw democracy

under the bus. >> it has to be said that it's further heartening that even the republican governor of georgia brian kemp said, we're not doing this, guys. there was a move to impeach fani willis, and he said, we're not doing this. that's him and brad raffensperger and all of them, and you were reporting this morning, hugo, about donald trump in georgia perhaps trying to follow the mark meadows playbook to say, i want this case moved to federal court. what is the argument for that, and how would that change things for him? >> trump's been weighing whether to have his case moved to federal court in georgia. that way he gets out of a potentially adverse jury pool for him and also the cameras in the court as to which he really does not want. >> right. >> but the removal issue is interesting because it kind of serves two purposes for him. one is basically he can -- he wants to follow mark meadows' line. he wants to use the arguments

that are successful if meadows is successful. he doesn't want to do this himself. he wants to repurpose what other people are doing, but it serves to delay which is his overarching strategy. he has 30 days from his arraignment to file a motion to move to federal court. he's going to do that on the last day, no question about it. i was speaking to several people in trump's inner circle. they're very brazen about this, and he gets two major benefits if he moves. >> jon meacham, pulling back and looking at the whole situation, of course you and i both know growing up in the cold war of the doomsday clock, we believed that this country was in the 1850s whether to move towards war or peace during the 2020 election. a short, short gain for

democracy, a temporary gain for democracy because the guy who was pressuring his attorney general to arrest his opponent two weeks before the election lost, but since then, we have had riots that he inspired. we have had him saying he was going to terminate the constitution of the united states if he could, if that's what it took for him to get back into the white house. we've of course, had him stealing nuclear secrets. we have had him stealing war plans. we have had him stealing documents that described america's weaknesses. we have had him caught in a conspiracy to steal an election. the evidence pretty damning. we have his own i.t. director testifying that he tried to destroy evidence, that the fbi was trying to get, trying to destroy the tapes. does that sound familiar?

on and on and on. >> yeah. >> and there is a lot of hand-wringing. as james carville would say, a lot of bedwetting over a cnn poll that has he and donald trump tied at 46%. your thoughts on the talk that continues to go around, not only about the president, but also the state of democracy and the risks that democracy faces over the next 18 months. >> well, it's the most fragile form of government. if it were easy, everybody would do it. we wouldn't be the longest functioning one bringing in almost 250 years. we haven't gotten there yet, and it's fragile because it's human. it's up to us. it's about our appetites. it's about our polarization. it's about our interests, our

will, and the question we have the decide every hour of every day, and maybe this sounds grand, but it's not is do i respect the law in wanting to -- in dealing with you because maybe you have something i want. in donald trump's case, joe biden had an election victory. so what did he do? he had a choice, right? you can either follow the law and lose graciously, go back and try again which is what has unfolded in this country for a long time, but is when you think about it, globally a huge exception, right? it's unusual. so the question is if you have something i want, you know, by basic human instinct is to go grab it, but democracy, rule of law, the constitution suggests, tells me that i respect what you have and if i want it, i try to get it legally, and that's the

whole thing, and it's not just because it's the right thing to do though it happens to be, but it also protects me if i have something you want, and so i think this is a moral question. i think this is about how we are with each other. i don't believe these polls honestly. i think basically the model is pretty hard to figure out. i don't know if you get called up if you are going to tell the truth to somebody. i think there's a lot of trolling on the republican side. you're right. 2020 was a step in the right direction. so was 2022. let's not forget that, but it's always going to be hugely close. >> right. >> that's why it's up to every one of us to do it. >> historian jon meacham -- >> talking about the skepticism -- i'm so sorry, mika. talking about the skepticism so

quickly of polling. i said that to the reporter a couple of days ago. i just -- you know what? i don't want to hear the polls. i don't want to hear them because we heard that joe biden was going to win in a landslide in 2020. he didn't. we heard that republicans were going to win in a massive red wave in 2022 even when we didn't feel it, but we heard it, and everybody told us, and everybody talked about it, and then it didn't happen. i just -- again, i just -- again, i really do wonder, mara, what voter in suburban atlanta that didn't vote for donald trump in 2020 is going to say, well you know what? i didn't vote for him in 2020, but now after january the 6th and after he stole nuclear secrets, and after he tried to get his own people to destroy his tapes, and after everybody that's testified against him in

all these cases or people that he hired himself, and after he said he was going to terminate the constitution, yeah. yeah. i think my friends in elphrata and i, we're going to knock on doors for donald trump. >> yeah. i totally agree. we like to think of polls as though they're biblical in some way or they're perfectly scientific. it's more of an art in many ways. it's just a snapshot in time of people you happen to catch on a certain day who may or may not honestly tell you what they're feeling and then you have to put it into the context of, you know, there is a choice, and there will be a choice between two individuals, and on that day, the question is always which voters are the most motivated to show up. how many of them are there? of course, campaigning matters. getting out the vote matters, and all of this is to say that there are probably many americans who may not be feeling

that excited or enthusiastic about voting for president biden, but on the day of, i think many of them will show up anyway because they certainly don't want the alternative in donald trump. i think we've seen that consistently in those polls, and so this is about turnout as much as it is about polls that are up and down on a specific candidate. so i think it's early, and it's -- you don't want to take polls just by their word and move on. this is about something bigger than that. there's a context here. >> historian jon meacham and hugo lowell, thank you very much for being on this morning. and still ahead on "morning joe," amid mounting legal bills, rudy giuliani gets a little fund-raiing help from former president trump. plus, consistent to election losses, republicans are trying to move away from the term pro-life. we'll have that new reporting

and what's on the table instead. and republican senator tomny tuberville who's been blocking military promotions since february complained this week about navy sailors reciting poetry. our next guest has his own guest. roses are red. carriers are gray. how can you're dissing our military every damn day? admiral james stavridis joins us with more of his thoughts. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. hts. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. ( ♪♪ ) the first fda-approved rsv vaccine. arexvy is used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv

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we are so woke in the military, we're losing recruits right and left. secretary of the navy needs to

get to recruiting and he needs to get wokeness out of our navy. we've got people doing poems on aircraft carriers over the loud speaker. it is absolutely insane the direction that we're headed in our military. >> oh my lord. republican senator tommy tuberville of alabama on wednesday accusing the navy of being woke, saying sailors are reading poems over the loudspeakers. meanwhile, tuberville's block on military promotion has stopped 301 service members so far from being confirmed into new positions. joining us now is james stavridis. he's the chief international analyst for abc -- nbc news and you have the first question, joe, but i can't figure out how

we can't figure out how to teal with tommy tuberville. >> they're fine with the rate of the united states suffering. they're obviously by their own actions -- you know, i tell what you. if i'm running that conference, i'm getting everybody in a press conference and we're telling tommy, hey, tommy, you're not coaching football anymore. we're not talking about xs and os. we're not talking about whether you go to the sugar bowl or the astro blue bonnet bowl or whatever bowl you want to go to. they had that in 1974. tommy, this is life and death. this is about the strength of the united states military. this is about us being able to have leaders in place to project power. hey, tommy, this is about not having the marine corps commandant for the first time in 150 years. this is about having three services not having a military leader with a full range of

power necessary to plan forward. this is about children whose mothers and fathers have chosen to serve in the united states military to protect and defend this country. children who don't know right now as a new school year starts where they're going to go because promotions have been held up because they're all sitting in limbo because tommy tuberville is trying to make a point on abortion that even the good people of alabama are telling him to drop. it's -- it's just all part of an ongoing attack by the republican party against the united states armed forces. they love to say we're weak. they want you to believe that the united states of america is weak, that our military is weak.

you talk to a marine from quantico. have you spent five minutes with a navy s.e.a.l.? or are the recruits that are trying to become s.e.a.l.s, the candidates at coronado? an army ranger? in northwest florida going through camp? i mean, have you -- have you spent any time with these people? you make fools of yourself when you say they are weak, that our military is weak, that you would rather them fight like russians than americans who have betrayed your inner thoughts and the fact that your inner thoughts are really un-american. what do you call it when a republican party says they would rather our troops fight like russians than americans? what do you call it when they hold up three service leaders

from taking charge to run their services? what do you call it when a jackass is trying to make a political point that nobody gets, even the people in his own home state. the very conservative state of alabama don't get when you hold up the marine corps from having a commandant for the first time in 150 years. why aren't the republicans calling this out? why isn't everybody calling this out? let's bring in admiral james stavridis. i'm tired of people tearing down the military, and tearing down the united states of america. i'm sick and tired of them tearing down our soldiers and our sailors and our marines saying they're weak and they're woke. not to keep repeating a point, but ask 500 russians in the

wagner group who tried to bomb rush our troops. ask them how weak and woke we are. you can't because they're dead. they died within five minutes of trying to rush the united states military, the men and women of the united states military. admiral, i mean, how long does this go on? when do the republicans actually start putting readiness and national security ahead of petty political points? >> yeah. it's got to start now, and by the way, it just makes my head explode when i hear this trope that, oh, the military is so woke and reading poetry. it is absolutely ridiculous, and unlike senator tuberville, i have been on submarines. i have been on carriers. i have been with navy s.e.a.l.s. i commandeered 150,000 troops in

combat in afghanistan. i've seen our troops forward. let me tell you what's happening on the ships right now. they are launching missiles. they are sailing around the world. they are conducting real world operations from the persian gulf to the eastern mediterranean to the black sea to the western pacific in the south china sea. so don't talk about something that you don't know anything about, senator tuberville. point two, joe, would be, and you kind of picked some of this up, but let's take the navy as an example. we don't have a chief of naval operations, the equivalent of the commandant of the marine corps. as a result, the number two in the navy is forced to do both that job, the deputy job, the vice chief of naval operations and the job of the chief of naval operations. so you're going to get half of the attention you need on these critical decisions, and, you know, see point one, directing

the navy that's globally deployed in real world operations, and then third and finally, it's a morale issue. >> mm-hmm. >> and that becomes an attention issue. if you look at the 300 admirals and generals, every one of them has colonels and navy captains and petty officers and sergeants that are part of their team, and so joe, your point about the children of these -- that's not hundreds. it's not thousands. it's tens of thousands of military families at this point who have no idea where they're going to be stationed in the fall because the senate doesn't confirm all because of one senator using an arcane process in a destructive way. so yeah. i'm frustrated. i assure you everybody in the military is. coming up, new york city mayor eric adams is warning the

flow of migrants into his city will upend neighborhoods and, quote, destroy it. reverend al sharpton joins us next to weigh in on the mayor's provocative remarks. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. s. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. (psst psst) ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good. ♪ upbeat music ♪ ♪ [ tires screeching ] director: cut! jordana, easy on the gas. force of habit. i gotta wrap this commercial, i think i'm late on my payment. it's okay,

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new york city mayor eric adams this week claimed the city was being destroyed by an influx of asylum seekers from the southern border. speaking at an event on wednesday night, the mayor said he did not know how to fix the issue. >> never in my life have i had a problem that i did not see an

end to. i don't see an end to this. i don't see an end into this. this issue will destroy new york city, destroy new york city. >> really strong words. the 21,000 new children of asylum seekers started classes yesterday in new york city. the largest school system in the nation, 10,000 migrants have been arriving in the city each month, straining the city's services across the board. nearly 60,000 migrants currently occupy beds in city shelters and in emergency sites. mayor adams has been critical of the federal response to the crisis saying, quote, we're getting no support. the white house has defended its response to the issue noting the $140 million in new federal funds to the city and state. in addition, a white house spokesman noted that only

congress can reform our broken immigration system and provide additional resources to communities across the country. let's bring in president of the national action network and host of "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. rev, the mayor was making it very clear there's no end in sight here, and he's at a loss. >> i talked to the mayor on monday. we both were at the west union day parade, the labor day parade, and he's frustrated not because of any overreaction on his part. he's past the limits of what he can do as mayor, and unless the federal government, including the congress steps in, there is no end in sight. these people are being brought in, started for political reasons by people like governor abbott and others sending people to new york. >> right. >> it's way beyond the purview of the mayor to handle this continued influx with the

present services. now we can say, calm down, eric. don't get too much with your rhetoric, but it is a desperate situation, and as long as i've known the mayor, he's never been in a situation that was not within his grasp to handle. >> right. right. >> this is beyond his grasp. he needs congressional intervention. >> he went on to say by the way, the city we knew, we're about to lose. those are the words of the mayor of new york city. he said i was worried a year ago when it was 15,000 migrants in our city. now it's well over 100,000 new migrants. how do we fix this? >> there's a couple of things going on here. the mayor is absolutely right that communities like new york and across the southern border who are seeing thousands of migrants come into their borders need help from the federal government this is a federal issue that means not only money, but fixing the broken immigration process, and allowing migrants to work. it takes many months -- i believe over six months to get a

work permit if you are an asylum seeker. how is a city or community supposed to -- what are they supposed to do in the meantime? that means you need to provide not only food and shelter, but pretty much all of the needs until people can work. migrants have been forced into new york city and across the country to take jobs that are dangerous, whether through construction or you see women on the subway with their babies. sometimes children who you hope to see in school instead. this is a humanitarian crisis. we should treat it as that, but i think that the mayor -- i understand his frustration toward the white house, toward congress. i do not love hearing him vilify people who have come to our shores like many generations of americans before seeking a better life. many from desperate situations, from countries that have collapsed, and i want to say, this country needs immigrants. immigrants are the lifeblood of new york city, of america, and

vilifying them is not only dangerous, but it really is a betrayal of what this country is meant to be about, and i do not believe that that sentiment speaks for the majority of residents of new york city. this is a city that can handle this influx with some help. coming up, more and more kids are going to school just four days a week. why hundreds of districts are adopting the new schedule. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." traight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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♪♪ welcome to full frontal. i'm samantha bee. if you're like me, you're just a few weeks away from having fewer human rights. fun! >> a decision has been made to overturn the landmark roe v wade ruling. in the leaked document, roe was

egregiously wrong from the start. >> the supreme court is going to force you to have that baby. side note, when this draft opinion was leaked on may 2nd, our show was actually on hiatus. just a beautiful day to kick back, enjoy the sun and burn our throats to dust with endless screaming. >> terrific. that was samantha bee on her emmy award winning show. bee became the first woman to ever host a late-night satire show after she left "the daily show" with jon stewart. now she's taking on the role as a sex ed teacher in "the joy of sex education." sam, it's great to have you back. good to see you. >> thanks for having me. >> what's different about your sex ed class than the ones i

took in middle school? >> i did have sex ed. of course it was administered by a very reluctant gym teacher as many of our sex ed teachers were, like so reluctant, like wishing for a bolt of lightning to come and strike her dead. so i feel like we are not getting the comprehensive sex education that we need. that's 100% true. people are so afraid of it. people don't know very basic things about their bodies. i felt the repercussions when i entered perimenopause. why didn't anybody mention the part where all that happens? what? yeah.

>> i read an article at the beginning of the summer on starting hrt and the whole menopause thing. i've never gotten a bigger reaction from women who were like thank you for talking about this. we could talk about menopause more in a big way. i also think that there's a lot of republicans -- i mean, kamala harris has sort of encapsulated this by saying they don't understand how a woman's body works. i actually don't think they do. >> i actually don't. i think there are some who do and don't care because they're pushing their own agenda and there are some who literally don't. like the introduction of six-week abortion bans is so preposterous. they don't understand how our bodies work. they think if you know how to inseminate a cow, you can just extrapolate all that knowledge and present it as truth for the

female human body. it's not fair. it's not real. we all suffer the consequences of that, because if you're not armed with information about yourself or you're dwelling in a state of shame or confusion about yourself, how can you push back on ridiculous restrictions placed on you? it's very hard to fight for bodily autonomy if you don't even know your body. >> you go from the six-week abortion ban which has endangered women's lives across the country, to republicans threatening, oh my god, the democrats want nine-month abortions. they barely ever happen. >> just kind of like presenting this possibility that women are going to carry a child to the

nine-month mark, deliver it and then murder a baby on the operating table is like a thing that is stated and goes unchecked all the time. >> all the time. >> it's just so false, it's disgusting, it's untrue, it's shocking. it's the kind of misinformation that just like metastasizes like a cancer. people think it's real. it's not real. please. >> you've got 15 more shows. tell us about your show and who do you want in your class? >> i want everyone in my class. if we do know about ourselves, anyone could use a refresher. i'm basically taking us on a journey of our bodies, through

puberty and menopause and beyond. it's super fun. it's basically to me like if a hotflash was a live show. i think people are going to learn more at my show than possibly they ever learned in their entire lives about their bodies. i wish everyone could receive this level of education, i swear. >> you can get it at samantha's show "the joy of sex education" coming to 15 cities on your screen. thank you so much for being on this morning, samantha bee. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." with much more "morning joe.

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los angeles for you. the sun hasn't even come up because it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. we've been up and running for a few hours now here on "morning joe." welcome to the fourth hour. we have a lot to get to, including an event with donald trump that wasn't all about him. the former president hosted a fundraiser for one of his coconspirators in the georgia election interference case. well, that was nice of him. plus, we're moments away from president biden's arrival in new delhi, india, for the g-20 summit. we'll talk about that. also ahead, the latest on the manhunt for an escaped killer in pennsylvania, on the run for more than a week now after he was able to shimmy up a wall and get through razor wire. we begin this hour with another criminal conviction of another donald trump ally.

former trump white house advisor peter navarro was found guilty yesterday of contempt of congress for ignoring a subpoena last year from the house january 6th committee. it took the jury just four hours to reach its verdict on both counts navarro faced for refusing to testify before the committee and refusing to turn over requested documents. the trial lasted only two days. navarro's legal team did not present any witness testimony or evidence. navarro planned on mounting a defense claiming he was bound by executive privilege, but the judge rejected that argument in a pretrial ruling last week. sentencing is set for january 12th. navarro faces up to two years in prison. he has repeatedly called this a landmark case based on separation of powers. >> people like me, senior white house advisors, alter egos of the president, cannot be

compelled to testify before congress. absolutely. yet, they brought the case. we knew going in what the verdict was going to be. that's why this is going to the appeals court. i said from the beginning this is going to the supreme court. i said from the beginning i am willing to go to prison to settle this issue. i'm willing to do that. but i also know that the likelihood of me going to prison is relatively small because we are right on this issue. >> let's bring in msnbc chief legal correspondent ari melber. he's going to go to jail for this. he clearly was convicted and deserves to, but why didn't he

just reply to the subpoena and answer some questions or plead the fifth? >> that is the question at the heart of all of this. why didn't he and steve bannon, who was also convicted and sentenced and could go to prison, why didn't they take that option? the majority of trump aides, people like mr. eastman, who now has faced separate indictment in a different jurisdiction still came in and engaged the process rather than defied it without providing a lot of information. i don't know that there's one clear answer to that, other than navarro and bannon wanted to make some sort of larger point, denying the legitimacy of congress to investigate anything they or donald trump have done. >> you're no stranger to interviewing peter navarro. in fact, some of the comments he

made to you on your show led in part of that january 6th committee subpoena. take a look. >> the remedy was for vice president pence the quarterback in the green bay sweep to remand those votes back to the six battleground states. >> do you realize you are describing a coup? >> no. >> yes, that was useful, i guess. is he out of his mind, ari? i'm curious. he could have avoided jail on a number of levels here, couldn't he have? >> i think there are means by which he could have avoided the risk of jail and also not provided a ton of information under oath. recently we've seen many people claim the fifth and it is your constitutional right. it's not a great career move generally. it's not a great matter to brag

about. so some people may not want to do it for other reasons. you just showed that clip there. that was january of last year. it was only after that interview on msnbc with me and some other public statements that navarro put himself on the committee's radar. the committee's work really did advance public understanding, and then doj followed suit. what's really going on here? why take these risks? that doesn't mean thesel bonker or unserious. the entire effort to get millions of people to follow blatant public lies about the election, which led up to january 6th, that can sound delusional. yet, we know the results are quite serious. i think that's something mr. giuliani may be in a similar category.

on the one hand, people say how unserious compared to how he used to be or sound decades ago. on the other hand, the consequences are serious. the people on the screen are indicted for a reason, presumed innocent, but facing serious evidence. yes, i think that sort of combo of wild theories but real results has gotten so many in legal trouble. >> in less than an hour in fulton county, there's supposed to be the release of the special grand jury report from that investigation. what are some things we might learn? >> i think the most serious legal pieces of evidence, at least the high level stuff, will be familiar, because it was in the speaking rico indictment, which has many different overt acts and pieces of evidence of things people allegedly did. in one sense, it should track

with some of that. on the other hand, we may see things that the grand jurors separately thought was important or interesting or otherwise relevant in that earlier investigative stage that didn't make the cut, if you will, in the speaking indictment. so i think we could get new clues, new details or see a bit of a gap. what we see today we might think of as the first draft. >> last night donald trump hosted a $100,000 a plate fundraiser to help rudy giuliani pump money into his legal defense fund. the event took place at trump's golf club in bedminster, new jersey. giuliani had repeatedly sought a financial lifeline from trump, but appeals for direct assistance from the former

president failed. giuliani faces mounting expenses in several lawsuits and criminal charges tied to his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. giuliani's son said the event was expected to raise more than $1 million and that trump committed to hosting a second fundraiser at his mar-a-lago club later this year. here is what an attorney representing giuliani in the georgia case said about the fundraiser. >> i've seen they're trying to raise as much as possible, and i think they're going to need it. if you look at how much the state has spent on a case like this, all the district attorneys on the line, all the investigative work, all the things they're doing, i don't care how much money you have, you cannot outspend the state. just being named in an indictment of this magnitude and knowing the scale, scope and length of this trial, even the preliminary matters is going to be extremely costly. >> to generate

also, from talking to people, i very much get a sense that the former governor hogan or former governor huntsman, moderate republicans, which may set the profile, they may be looking for a trump slayer, somebody who can really go after donald trump, because that group is standing for the notion that donald trump should never be president again. chris christie above all else fits that. he's not really running as a candidate for the republican nomination. he's running on a mission to educate the world on why donald trump shouldn't be president. you put those two factors together, and i worry chris christie is the person they may pick.

>> also just the threat posed by potential third-party candidates. it's a long way off. west could drop out. right now he's saying he's going to run. with margins slim, a third-party candidate drawing a little bit of support from biden could be a problem. >> i saw dr. west's interview with ari melber where dr. west talked about the fact that he ran on the green party ticket. the folks who would vote for green party could never vote for for republicans or democrats anyway, so he's bringing out new people. they're right to be concerned.

i do believe there should be some choice, if you will, for voters across the board. i think people are right to say why do we only have a two-party system? why can't we be more like insert whatever country in europe? the problem is we only have these conversations when it comes to presidential election years. you do not build a party from the top down, you build it from the bottom up. you put people on the ballot and form pacs and fundraise. that has not happened for the green party or no labels. i really think no labels particularly are capitalizing on this need that a lot of voters have and a number of young voters for choice, and they are selling people a lie. now, i will tell you the cnn poll that just came out,

everybody is talking about oh the numbers are bad for biden. . when asked who you they would like, people can't name a specific person. i think folks have to calm down, take a step back and say what are we looking at here? we are looking at the future of our democracy. >> also we're looking at an incumbent president who has a lot of wins to brag about and a lot of criticisms for his opponent that his campaign so far has held back on. but my god, let it rip at some point. you don't want to tamper with anything that the doj is doing. you can stay away with that and just talk about things that are obviously in the public arena

reported in major newspapers, out of the mouth of donald trump if you just use what he has said and done, you're good. you have an honest criticism of the direction this man is taking this country in. it's a frightening one. speaking of strategy, republican strategists are looking to move away from the term pro-life after clear election losses following the fall of roe. at a meeting of senate republicans this week, the head of a super pac closely aligned with mitch mcconnell presented a poll that showed voters are not resonating with the term pro-life. my gut is they aren't resonating with a whole lot more than just the term, but okay. while nbc news has not independently reviewed the poll, senator todd young of indiana summarized the meeting as being focused on, quote, pro-baby

politicians. when young was asked whether senators were encouraged to use that term, he said it was just a phrase of his own making. meanwhile, senator josh hawley of missouri said this of the meeting. quote, many voters think pro-life means you're for no exceptions in favor of abortion ever and pro-choice can now mean any number of things. the conversation was mostly oriented around how voters think of those labels that they've shifted. if you're going to talk about the issue, you need to be specific. one of the things republicans have been doing and they even have done it on the show and it's been so frustrating, is talk about abortion. they say democrats want abortion in the ninth month of pregnancy. it's the most ridiculous argument i've ever heard. they're distorting the issue

when most americans at this point understand this is a fundamental issue of health care and women's lives are in danger now because of the fall of roe. >> this is incredible stuff. we saw the supreme court catch the car, right? they overturned dobbs. we saw conservative pundits saying no one cares about dobbs. it's baked in. women don't care about abortion. what happened? we saw firsthand that abortion is health care. what's so different from what happened in 1973 when they decided roe v wade was we're really seeing women who cannot get treatment. women in their second or third trimester who have babies who are going to die or who are going to die themselves and cannot get doctors to treat. my own experience is i got pregnant when i was 23 and had this child who i love so much. at one point he had a test that

came back very bad. my doctor said, i don't do second trimester abortions so you have to go to another state. but the test was fine. this is a child i desperately want who had goes to college now. this is what we're seeing, women unable to get treatment from doctors. >> i think republicans are way off. tommy tuberville is way off on this when he says, we're republicans, we're against abortion, right? really? >> going back to that no labels discussion, if they found a pro choice woman republican to be on that ticket that would be really big trouble. chris christie is more moderate on this issue than an awful lot

of other republicans who may when paired with a democrat could skate by on that very important issue in key swing states. what i would like to see is to take the best options no labels might have off the table pressing chris christie now. he'll probably be back on the show because he loves to talk to your audience and asking him take the no labels possibility off the table, because if you do it, you are going to do exactly what you say you don't want to do, and that is elect donald trump as opposed to being the person crusading against donald trump. this has the possibility of overcoming a third-party challenge given how we've seen wisconsin and some other states vote here. remember, those swing states were less than 1% and these independent candidates can pull 5 or 10% if it's a strong ticket. that comes right out of joe

biden's side even with the abortion issue. >> the strategy of don't say pro life -- >> the idea they needed a powerpoint presentation and polling to tell them what the voters have consistently told them since the last election since dobbs was overturned, i think in that nbc news article senator loomis said labels aren't going to cut it anymore. for years the republican party has gotten away with just saying whatever they want to say when it comes to things like the economy, when it comes to abortion, when it comes to immigration, and people believe them. now you have the real-life implications of what their

politicians are when you have the supreme court in south carolina saying we understand an abortion ban infringes on the privacy rights of women and bodily autonomy but we care more about the life of the unborn child. >> the president might have an enthusiasm problem, but isn't this issue still going to be driving people to the polls next november? >> that's why all these junky polls seem meaningless to me. it's 1500 people on the phone. we've seen again and again polling has been wrong on abortion, ohio, kansas.

>> thank you. tom, we want to ask you about the millions of americans who are not getting their money's worth when it comes to their cable subscription because of a bitter fight between spectrum and disney. we'll get tom's analysis on that dispute. plus, this year's school schedule is different for several districts across the country. we'll look at the growing shift to four-day school weeks ahead on "morning joe." four-day schod on "morning joe. ♪ meet the chevy zr2 family. they'll never let you down. with features like dssv dampers,

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it's a disruption going on in the stadium right now in the

upper deck. we had a disruption in the opening game last night. >> is it a medical emergency? >> it's too far to see. it's something yelling, almost like a protest. >> that was the moment last night when protesters interrupted the u.s. open semifinal match between coco gauff in the second set when the environmental activists in the crowd stood and began shouting. one protester even glued his bare feet to the concrete as a protest against fossil fuels. the protest delayed the match by nearly an hour. security guards and more than a half dozen police officers confronted the protesters before they were escorted out and taken into custody.

but none of that was seen live by roughly 15 million spectrum cable customers, as they've been without espn, abc and other disney-owned channels since last weekend. disney and spectrum are currently feuding, engaged in public disagreements over the renewal of their distribution deal, which means spectrum customers do not have access to disney-owned channels. millions lost access to other live events including the start of college football, which earns millions for both spectrum and disney. tom rogers, what's the issue here and what's the future of cable tv? >> well, we've talked about disney's fight with desantis here. this is a much bigger issue for disney than that fight is.

this is an existential threat for disney. what's at stake here for consumers is both the price of cable tv and the price of streaming services. there's an awful lot at stake. everybody knows about cord cutting and people getting rid of cable or satellite service. now only about 50% of the country actually has cable or satellite service. half the country has gone to streaming only. there are two issues at stake here. first is not cord cutting, but haircutting of disney, of the people who still get cable, how many is disney going to insist get all their channels including espn? why that's an issue is there are a lot of people who get their sports from jonathan talking about the red sox and that's

about it that they need. they're not sports fans. as nonsports fans they subsidize sports fans and the cost of espn. what spectrum charter would like to do is say, you know what, why can't we offer a much thinner, skinnier bundle for, say, a news audience that doesn't want sports and can pay less? >> why can't they? that seems reasonable. >> because disney insists that the vast majority of cable operators have to get all their channels, including espn, which inflates the cost of cable, which is now $100 or more. >> as a customer, that makes me mad. i'm going to look for alternatives. >> well, charter has taken on that fight and at the same time they're saying disney is being hypocritical in this era of streaming where people get to choose what package they want. why should our customers be forced to buy more than they may want to take?

>> every so often there is a fight like this between a cable company and a channel. it usually gets resolved after a handful of days or weeks. there's speculation about the looming monday night football game that pushes this over the finish line. tell us why this fight is so different. >> this fight is different. there are two reasons for that. one, cable operators stopped caring from a business point of view so much about their video business anymore. programmers have charged so much for carrying their channels that they have almost no profitability left in the video side of their business. so if customers disconnect video, as long as they continue to get their broadband internet service from cable, the cable side is fairly indifferent. on the disney side, it used to be when these fights happened, the reason the cable operator would cave very quickly is the consumer had no alternative to get the football game. now it's pretty easy.

you don't have to get a satellite dish installed on your roof as the only way to get a football game when your operator goes dark. you can just go on the internet, pick up youtube tv, hook up hulu live and you get all of that. the second issue at stake here is that spectrum is saying we want our cable subscribers to get all the streaming services of disney for free. disney is saying that's our future business, we can't give it away for free. what's the catch? when people get hulu live as their alternative bundle to get these channels when it goes dark, hulu live the disney-owned bundle does give them espn plus, disney plus and hulu for free. so they're fighting against a proposition that they're already offering their customers. so this thing with these

dynamics having changed could go on for a while. this is really an existential fight for disney. >> does it have a winning argument at all? >> i think the winning argument for consumers is let there be an ability to get a smaller cable bundle cheaper if you don't care about sports. and there's probably a winning argument for cable subscribers that they get these streaming services marketed by the cable operator, not for free because the streaming services just can't afford that, but maybe at some discounted price that actually makes the cable operator a marketing agent for the streaming services that need more subscribers if the streaming side of their business is going to succeed. so there's a lot at stake here. because there's so much at stake, it may not be resolved quickly. >> i just want one remote, tom. that's all i ask. i need it to make sense to me. >> you sound exactly like my

wife. i hear it every night. >> thank you. keep us posted on that. up next, we'll have an update on the intense manhunt for the escaped prisoner who has been on the loose for more than a week in pennsylvania. as we go to break, live pictures from new delhi where president biden has arrived to meet with indian prime minister modi. think hairspray's stuck in one dimension? think again. flex any style... with hairspray that flexes with you. new tresemmé hairspray.

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priscilla thompson joins us. what did you find out? >> reporter: this has been a growing trend in the wake of the pandemic as schools are working to address both learning loss and also this teacher shortage with many of them turning to the four-day school week as a possible solution. what we're seeing is while some districts say it's working for them, there's new data that suggests it may not be a good fit for everyone. >> dear students, this is a little welcome note. >> reporter: in ohio, a new academic year is under way, and so is a brand new schedule. this year students will report to school just four days a week with mondays set aside for teachers to plan and students to review and recharge. the new schedule a result of what the superintendent calls a decline in staff morale and a growing number of teachers calling out sick.

>> we're dealing with high absenteeism. our teachers were burnt out. myself and my administrative team, who often found ourselves come to the building to help support the teachers because we couldn't find subs. >> reporter: looking for ways to help teachers feel less overwhelmed, researched the benefits of four-day weeks. teachers are excited. >> teacher burnout is very real. we deal with students with so much trauma, we don't have an 8:00 to 5:00 job. we start at 7:30, we leave at 3:30, but most of us are bringing stuff home. >> reporter: nationwide, there are now more than 1600 four-day schools in 24 states. administrators in texas say four-day weeks have enabled them to attract and retain more qualified teachers. studies show other potential

benefits including saving districts money, providing students with mental health breaks and reducing school fights. some education experts worry about the downsides. a study found lower academic achievement in four-day schools, particularly those in non-rural settings. >> their students are growing less on average than schools that are similar that don't adopt four-day school weeks. >> reporter: one reason a large district near dallas opted not to go with a four-day week. what was your biggest concern? >> as we looked at the research, it was a negative effect to african-american, hispanic and bilingual students. >> reporter: the district was concerned what a four-day week would mean for special education students. >> so many state of the unions

really need that routine. >> reporter: back in ohio, administrators at north college hill acknowledge four-day weeks can be a challenge. >> i have to call off work on mondays. >> reporter: still, the district believes a four-day schedule works to the advantage of most . >> what works here may not work in chicago. but we feel we can meet our needs with a four day. >> reporter: you heard from that working mom concerned about child care. that's one of the big questions about this model. the school district in ohio is actually offering structured activities at the school on that monday when students are off for parents who may be working. even the mesquite superintendent said while he doesn't think the four-day school week is a bad idea, just that he wants to see how it would work in a community that looks like theirs. >> priscilla thompson, do you

have any thoughts about this just covering this story and also from your experience? >> reporter: yeah. i taught in a huge urban school district in houston isd. some of the challenges we talked about would be an issue. i also taught english as a second language reading. to the point we heard from that superintendent in mesquite, sometimes repetition and being with the language is important because they may not be speaking it as much at home. where it all lands is sort of maybe a good fit for many, especially in rural areas where the school district is a primary employer. lots of folks can be hold with their kids, but it may not work in other areas. >> priscilla thompson, thank you

very much. now to that manhunt in pennsylvania for the convicted killer on the run after escaping from prison more than a week ago. george solis has the latest. >> reporter: another sighting of a convicted killer in the same area he was seen earlier this week. the massive search for danelo cavalcante is entering its ninth day. overnight authorities confirming he was sighted yesterday at the botanical gardens where he was spotted on trail cameras earlier this week. they advised visitors to shelter in place, later saying the gardens were closed due to the search. >> he's murdered two people, one in brazil and one here, in a very brutal manner. >> reporter: he escaped last thursday morning.

surveillance video shows him crab walking up a wall in the prison yard. he managed to wriggle through barbed wire to get out, an escape route used by another inmate back in may. after that escape, the prison put razor wire in place, but it did not stop cavalcante. >> we didn't take into account the failure on the human element side. >> reporter: residents in this quiet neighborhood frustrated he has not been captured. 200 law enforcement out here trying to get this guy. they still haven't. why? >> there's a lot of woods, a lot of places to hide. i'm surprised they haven't caught him by now. >> reporter: cavalcante was sentenced to life in prison without parole, convicted of stabbing his girlfriend to death in front of her children.

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amazing. legendary singer and songwriter, lieu sin da williams, is a three-time grammy award winner whose hit song "passionate kisses" was named one of the 500 greatest songs of all time. she was also an honoree on the "forbe's" and know your value 50 over 50 list. our third analyst which celebrates women making their greatest impact at the age of 50

and well beyond. lucinda williams joins us now. also with us, editor of "forbe's" women. good to see you again. it is an honor to have you on the show. congratulations. >> thank you so much. >> it's great to have you on. and congratulations on making this year's lifestyle list which had so many incredible women on this list. jamie lee curtis, patti labelle, judy blume just to name a few. i love asking this question, i'm curious, you didn't have your first commercial break through until your 45 years old. so when you were in your 20s, when you were a much younger woman in your 20s, maybe early 30s, did you ever think about your career, imagine it in your 50s and beyond? >> yes. i mean -- well, i did. because i just wanted to be able to -- you know, i wanted to make

it. and, you know, i wanted to be -- i wanted to make a living playing music, writing songs and singing. and, you know, i would imagine how great it would be to be able to do that, like some of the other artists i looked up to at the time. but for the most part, i just took things, you know, one step at a time. >> yeah. just do what's right in front of you for sure. >> yeah. >> maggie, explain to the viewers the process of how and why we selected lucinda to be on this year's 50 over 50 list. >> it's come through the nominations and expert sources, we look for people who are innovating over 50, taking on new challenges. she has done her best work over the age of 50. she's received three grammys, critical acclaim for her albums. in 2015 at 62, "rolling stone" called her one of the greatest

songwriters of all time but this year, she's had a busy year. she released her 15th studio album and she published her memoir which is called "don't tell anybody about the secrets i told you" and it is now a best seller. i wanted to ask you, you are so open and honest in this memoir. you write about a trauma childhood in the deep south, years of being overlooked, the day jobs you worked so you could play music at night. where does your persistence come from and also what is your advice for women, especially mid-career women who recollects feel like they are being overlooked. >> i get asked that question quite a bit. you know, that question, look back and see yourself when you were 20, and what would you say to your younger self. and i guess it's just -- i mean,

it's hard to say because i don't want to sound too simplistic, but, you know, people tell me how brave i am and all this and, i don't know if it's as much bravery as it is just stubbornness. i think i was born with that spirit. the kind of rebellious spirit to just keep pushing and pushing ahead and, you know, not letting everybody tell me what to do and that kind of thing. >> that stubbornness has worked really, really well for lucida williams and these women are incredible, reaching their greatest impact well over 50, 70, 80. it's normal to have someone in their 80s bringing in more

wealth than they ever have before. we're gearing up for our luncheon in october. how are we going to beat last year? >> well, we're talking about it right now. but what i'm so excited for is to bring the women of this new list together because we see the energy that they create when they meet each other for the first time. we have founders and investors and leaders and especially when we get them in a room together, you see people across lists. you might have an investor talking to a scientist who they just admire. and i love watching that appreciation and mentorship happen in realtime. i think a lot of the energy comes from the people on the list. >> and i love the 30 under 30 listers, mentoring the 50 over 50 listers. every different way. thank you so much. lucida williams, thank you and congratulations. to read more about all of our 50 over 50 honorees, head over to knowyourvalue.com. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the

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mmm, popcorn. (alternate voice) denture disaster, darling! we need poligrip before crispy popcorn. (regular voice) let's fix this. (alternate voice) poligrip power hold + seal gives our strongest hold and 5x food seal. if your mouth could talk, it would ask for... poligrip. right now on ana cabrera reports, we're about to get our hands on a never before seen report by a special grand jury in georgia. what more could it reveal about the election interference case in fulton county and was anyone else not already indicted in that panel sights? president biden landing in india just moments ago for the g-20 summit. how an expected know show from china's leader is adding to his diplomatic tight rope. also ahead, police now confirming eight sightings of an escaped prisoner in pennsylvania. why is he still on the