good morning. 11:00 a.m. eastern, 8:00 a.m.

pacific. i'm jose diaz-balart. breaking news around the legal drama surrounding former president donald trump. a judge released the full report from a special grand jury that investigated allegations trump and his allies interfered in the 2020 presidential election there. the report includes the names of 21 people that it recommended for the indictment, but were not indicted. the report's introduction and conclusion in a section in which the grand jurors expressed concern that some witnesses may have lied under oath was released in february, but recommendations on who should or should not be charged were kept secret. the panel heard from 75 witnesses over a seven-month period. with us now to talk about this, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, katie phang, msnbc legal contributor and host of "the katie phang show," lisa rubin, msnbc legal analyst, also with us susan paige, washington

bureau chief for "usa today." katie, let's talk about the big, big takeaways from this report. including the fact that we're talking about the possibility of 39 names on there. >> yeah. so, the way that we want to look at this, jose, it is broken down into sections. and what we want to do is when you're walking through it and viewers walking through it, you're going to see each roman numeral is a section that addresses what the special grand jurors thought was a crime that was in violation of a georgia statute was committed and by the people that they think committed these crimes. so when you look at each section, it will take the relevant statutes and discuss the votes and that's important too because this is what you call complete transparency with this judicial system. we may not know the names of the special grand jurors and that will remin confidential and for good reason. with regard to the january 2nd, 2021 phone call from president trump to brad raffensperger, the grand jury recommends the district attorney seek an

indictment against the following individuals, donald trump. you see his name. and there is relevant statutes that are listed and it says 22 votes were made concerning donald trump and his violation of the statutes. you see 21 yeses, one no, and zero abstentions depending upon which of the statutes. the reason why this is important is it shows that there were people who disagreed as it happens in the world, there were people who disagreed with whether or not the persons committed the crimes, but the pages we have been harping about are pages six, seven and eight. that's roman numeral seven of the grand jury report. it talks about the national effort to overturn the election results in specific states. that's why you see noteworthy names. people like united states senators, i say plural, not just lindsey graham, david perdue's name, kelly loeffler's name, and some very prominent legal, trump legal world names like cleta mitchell, lynn wood, boris

epshteyn. these are people still in the trump legal orbit or they have since exited as it happens often in trump legal. but there are also people that i want to note that are on page seven. two men by the name of curt hilbert and alex kauffman who are they? they're georgia lawyers that helped donald trump and the trump campaign file and litigate in the state of georgia to try to in the courtroom overturn the elections of that result. but i saw hilbert testify under oath in an evidentiary hearing two weeks ago in federal court. mark meadows in his attempts to remove his state prosecution to federal court had an evidentiary hearing in front of a federal judge. the state of georgia called kirk hilbert. think about this. you got a special grand jury that is recommending that somebody like kirk hilbert, who helped donald trump be indicted for rico, state rico. but then the state used him as a witness. and as i mentioned to ana in the

last hour, we know there is 150 witnesses on behalf of d.a. fani willis. we heard that in court two days ago when we were there dealing with whether or not we were going to have a severance of kenneth chesebro from sidney powell and the other defendants of the 150 witnesses, you see some of them here now. is lindsey graham going to be called to testify by the state of georgia against donald trump if this goes to trial, when it goes to trial? these are the questions that remain a little bit unanswered and we now have a little bit more elimination as we sit here right now. >> there are so many different aspects with it, state and in the case you're mentioning, national implications. i'm wondering what are you seeing that stands out to you in this very, very specific series of indictments? >> well, jose, i want to underline the headline for our viewers and make sure it doesn't get lost. a special grand jury recommended criminal charges against one current and two former u.s. senators in connection with

their alleged actions to try to overturn the 2020 election. the d.a. in atlanta decided not to bring those charges. and there may be some significant reasons for that including concerns over whether the speech and debate clause was implicated, the clause in the constitution that says that members of congress can't be prosecuted for their legislative acts and lindsey graham argued that's what he was doing when he was making inquiries about potential election fraud. whether you believe that or not, that may have been an impediment. there was a footnote in here quoting one of the special grand jurors as saying they believe that the statements of perdue and loeffler who then went on to lose their re-election battles, were -- pandering to their political base and do not give rise to their being guilty of a criminal conspiracy. that gives you an idea. people may be wondering if the special grand jury recommended charges, why didn't the d.a. bring charges? there may be a host of reasons for that, some of these 21

people could be cooperating. but in the case of the senators, there may have been some political legal impediments that gave the d.a. pause. couple of other prominent names, can't emphasize enough here. boris eshteyn has not been charged criminally. mike flynn, the former national security adviser to the united states and cleta mitchell, a prominent attorney whose fingerprints have been all over the phone calls and efforts to go forward with the fake elector scheme, not charged in atlanta, recommended for charges. there is going to be questions for weeks and months about why these people weren't charged. those questions are going to be difficult to answer because the grand jury process that led to the charges is a secret process. the d.a. won't be able to comment on it. but it is a target for reporters combing this case. >> in that list also, burt jones. >> right.

>> lieutenant governor of georgia. >> the lieutenant governor of the state of georgia, current lieutenant governor. >> who fani willis recused from prosecuting him because he donated to a political opponent. >> so, lisa, just wondering when you're mentioning here and you're not indicted, is that done deal, is there any possibility that these could in some further court cases be indicted? >> i would say, jose, possible, but not likely. there is one exception to that and ken mentioned it, burt jones, against him an indictment could still be sought pursuant to the appointment of a special prosecutor. the person who would appoint that special prosecutor has been awaiting this report. and so now that we have it, it is possible for jones could find himself on the opposite end of an indictment. but i tend to agree with others

who believe this case is already sprawling enough against 19 defendants, 41 counts and 98 page indictment that the d.a. herself estimates would entail calling 150 witnesses over four months and that's not including jury selection. and we know that in all likelihood we're going to see versions of this trial at least twice. we're going to see ken chesebro and sidney powell tried on october 23rd and then potentially at a much later date, see at least some grouping of the 17 remaining co-defendants and anybody who does not plead out tried at that later date. given how much they have on their plate, given that many of the people listed here could already be cooperating and given some of the other concerns here, ken mentioned constitutional concerns about prosecuting someone like lindsey graham, given the speech and debate clause, i think it is unlikely

we'll see any further indictments against some of these folks, other than burt jones. >> the fact is -- we have been talking about it, two former legislators and one current one, lindsey graham. do you think this could -- what do you think it could mean for graham and the others? >> well, it could be very serious business indeed. this is an example of the value of transparency and public affairs. americans of all stripes can read this, make up their own minds. it does give fani willis a response to those who accuse her of overreach with 19 defendants, can you imagine if she had indicted all 39, including one current and two former u.s. senators. so this is a -- these people escaped indictment. i'm sure there are a lot of relieved people around washington and georgia today when they look at the names that

avoided being indicted. this also gives us a road map to what is going to be clearly a very serious and meticulous trial. it tells us something about the evidence they have and the fact that evidence persuaded almost all of these grand jurors to support indicting even more people than she did indict. >> the grand jury seeking evidence from or involving 75 witnesses during the course of the investigation. katie phang, what do you think this says to donald trump? >> it says to donald trump i'd be nervous. not only did donald trump create an environment where these are participants. but he created an environment where now people have been indicted alongside him. because in the january 6th case, you see him standing alone with six unindicted co-conspirators and they had a sigh of relief. but when fani willis brought these charges through this grand jury indictment we saw a few weeks ago, the people that were in his orbit, they got indicted

too. they were active co-conspirators that had their own criminal liability. i would be nervous if i'm donald trump because now as i noted, there are a lot of people who are going to be witnesses against him. these are people that have been privy to conversations. so these are people that have been in his inner circle that were a part actively of what he was trying to do, thwart american democracy. lindsey graham hasn't been kicked to the curb yesterday, giuliani is in there. >> flynn. >> exactly. boris epshteyn, an active quarterback of the trump legal teams. the fact you see all these names is -- i would be very nervous if i were donald trump. when i brought this up to ana, there are certain investigations being done in other states. not just georgia. look at michigan.

donald trump may have criminal exposure in other states based upon investigations that are being conducted at this time. i want to emphasize some language in this report. these special grand jurors sat in service during this length of time, took all this evidence and this testimony and emphasized here at the conclusion on page 8, they wanted to acknowledge the hard working attorneys and staff of the fulton county day. d.a.'s office but said any errors in the report should not be laid at their feet. that's really important. >> is that unusual? >> is that standard procedure? >> when the law becomes politicized, and when people try to use the law as a weapon, as a political cudgel to sit there and make this idea that all the prosecutions are splitly motivated, it is refreshing and honorable to see the grand jurors say we did our job and it wasn't because we were

influenced by the d.a. the d.a. had nothing to do with the recommendations. these were lay people and civilians called to service that took this evidence and said, you know what, based upon what we know, this is what we recommend. >> jury of peers, the concept here. >> what a concept. >> lisa, you were talking about what graham and the other two former legislators could talk about, exceptions that one has because one is an elected official. what is that one? >> are you asking what exceptions i'm talking about? >> yeah. that they could come up with. >> the speech and debate clause of the constitution protects legislators in their function as legislators. you'll remember when lindsey graham was subpoenaed for testimony during the special purpose grand jury investigation, he tried to worm his way out of it saying, no,

all the calls i made to brad raffensperger were in my capacity as a legislator. i was doing a fact finding because as a push who had to vote on the certification, i was entitled to understand if there was fraud in georgia or other states, even if they weren't my own. he had some protections insofar as he was acting as a legislator doing some fact finding work. that line, while it was sufficient to allow him to testify, may have just been too close for the fulton county d.a. to justify an indictment against a sitting u.s. senator. something i find so interesting here about the jury, when she's talking about the special purpose grand jury and what they did here and how they were just lay people, they were lay people who were impressed by and taken

with some of the people who came before them who were indicted. i keep thinking about blayne alexander's interview with emily coors and she was almost giddy with excitement recalling seeding rudy giuliani before her, headaching her hand. she was part of this body of people recommending extensive charges against mr. giuliani and others. that speaks to, i think, what we can expect of jurors throughout this country who are asked to pass judgment on the former president and his allies in a number of these cases. we shouldn't be so negative about the capacity of people whose political beliefs madoff tail with the president's to mete out justice in these cases. >> when one is involved in a judicial process of any kind, they ask jurors can you separate your beliefs on -- or even likes

or dislikes about a person so that you can take this responsibility seriously. and that's a question that every juror has to answer. >> air always asked by both sides, civil or criminal case, can you be a fair and impartial juror. and what does that mean? it means i may be a registered republican, a registered democrat, i may be an independent with no party affiliation, but i can sit in judgment because i can take the evidence and the facts and synthesize them. that dove tails with what we're about to deal with in fulton county, picking a jury to sit on a four-month, 150 witness jury trial, for a huge rico case. we haven't found out from the judge whether the remaining 17 defendants including donald trump will have to go on october 23rd. i anticipate the answer will be

no. but the juror pool will be fulton county. these were fulton county special grand jurors as well. that's the idea. they will be brought in, sit in judgment, they'll do it when they're fair and impartial and if you have cause to dismiss them, you can. if you want to exercise a preemptory strike, you can. but these jurors are drawn from a community of the defendants, plural, peers. >> and they recommended indictments in connection to efforts in other states like arizona, pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin. who are those areas and the investigation there have to do with this? >> it is very important. there were fake elector plots in multiple states and now some of that conduct was being and is

being investigated by special counsel jack smith. some of the attorneys general in those states said, you know, feds, you can handle this. other states including michigan have launched their own investigations of this conduct and they may glean some information from the investigation that has been done here in fulton county. we haven't heard the end of it. even though i just stepped back for a second, this report today is so important because even though this actual case in atlanta may take a while to foe to trial, a lot of complexities around it as we saw. there is a blizzard of emotions. it may be a year or more before we see donald trump in a courtroom. what fani willis and the fulton county folks have done is elevated the conversation here around the efforts to overturn the election. they have laid it all out, they have created full transparency, the kind we aren't able to see from jack smith and the special counsel.

they put all the names out there, even the ones who haven't been charged. it is a good thing for american democracy and folks in the other states and great for journalism and transparency, jose. >> katie was talking about the politization of the process and it has been day one donald trump's mantra. what the is potential political fallout from this report? >> we should be modest about predicting effects on donald trump supporters for anything that happens to him, including the indictments, including the release of this report. i think it is possible over time there is a cumulative effect. trump has very fierce supporters. he also has people who will look at what they have learned and judge for themselves. the massive evidence, the number of people they interviewed at the grand jury, the care they

took with these charges is in a way a response to what i predict we'll hear from donald trump, great criticism of this report. what he's done to jack smith and to fani willis and others who have investigated him is so denounce them as frauds and crooks. this report helps counter that line of attack. >> katie phang, if you would stay with us. lisa rubin, susan page, ken dilanian, thank you for being with us this morning. we have much more on this report in just 60 seconds. you're watching "jose diaz-balart reports" on msnbc. s. you're watching "jose diaz-balart repos"rt on msnbc. let innovation refunds help with your erc tax refund so you can improve your business however you see fit. rosie used part of her refund to build an outdoor patio. clink! dr. marshall used part of his refund to give his practice a facelift. emily used part of her refund to buy... i run a wax museum. let innovation refunds help you get started on your erc tax refund.

stop waiting. go to innovationrefunds.com you really got the brows. ♪i've got home internet from t-mobile.♪ ♪it only costs $50 bucks at t-mobile.♪ ♪just one cord to set up.♪ ♪say goodbye to that truck.♪ ♪oh, what a beautiful mornin'...♪ ♪oh, what a beautiful day...♪ ♪they won't raise your rates at t-mobile...♪ ♪you'll get a great deal every day!♪ home internet from t-mobile... just $50 bucks a month. 22 past the hour. we're back with our breaking news. katie phang is back with us for which i am very grateful. joining us now also, vaughn hillyard in rapid city, south

dakota, and garrett haake. how can we expect the trump campaign to react to this report? >> they're going to lean into it i expect, jose. they're going to continue to make the argument they made all along in all of these cases that they're purely political and this is an effort to get trump. i think what you're going to see and seeing it from some of the pro trump influencers are out there on special media, kind of the leading edge of his response to these kinds of things, is to point out how much further the special purpose grand jury tried to go in indicting additional people, including legislators, lindsey graham, kelly loeffler, and david perdue and they'll point to the footnote that ken dilanian was mentioning, one grand juror felt the actions were political and not legal in nature. that is the basis of every legal and political argument that donald trump made about all of the prosecutions against them and i think they're going to try to hammer that point, this is a

political overreach, and they'll just try to draw that dotted line from what the special grand jury wanted, probably through the foreperson who gave so many interviews in the immediate aftermath of the special grand jury wrapping up who become a villain on the maga right and draw that line right up. >> vaughn, one of the people that was mentioned and was indicted was rudy giuliani, the former president hosted a fund-raiser for giuliani at his club last night in bedminster, new jersey. what was that like? >> there have been a lot of questions about the extent to which donald trump would defend co-defendants and former allies of his that went about as far as

any loyalist could leading to criminal charges. in this case, that includes rudy giuliani at donald trump's private club there was a fund-raiser that the former president held for rudy giuliani's legal defense. there have been serious questions about his ability to pay for his own attorneys, not only in georgia, but also we know he's one of the co-conspirators out of the election interference case from special counsel jack smith's office. last night, rudy giuliani was there with donald trump, one of his aides was hosting an online video stream in which they were all but pleading for funds of any amount. for donald trump, it is very much about continuing to hold on to the allies he's had from rudy giuliani and the special media post in the last half hour he praised peter navarro who, of course, yesterday, was just found to be guilty of criminal contempt of congress.

so, for donald trump it is about remaining and keeping those allies close to him as he's in the middle of his own political effort ahead of 2024. >> and katie phang, so, if you are one of the people that were mentioned here that was not indicted, and let's separate the lieutenant governor, but if you're one of the people that were mentioned here, but ended up not being indicted, is this a fait accompli, are we done or is that something that they should be worried about. >> there is a subset of people who can sleep at night saying everything is okay because they got immunity deals. there is eight people from what we know from public reporting that have been listed on this list of 39 that have immunity deals. they're the ones that were offered that by fani willis. you recall there was a whole lot of back and forth in court filings about whether or not lawyers could continue to represent this huge group of defendants of potential targets because some were getting immunity deals and some weren't.

eight people got immunity deals. they weren't part of the indicted defendants at the end of the day. others may have deals. others may be under active cooperation deals. >> on this list? >> yes. and we don't know about it. that's why they may never look at potential indictments or criminal charges. there is a reason why donald trump tried so hard to make sure this didn't come out. even though it doesn't have as much factual detail, in this instance we don't have a lot of factual details, so we don't really know the substance per se of what these witnesses said to these grand jurors and don't know the actual exhibits used when they were presented to these grand jurors, but we do know that overwhelmingly these jurors said, you know what, when i say overwhelming, i'm talking $20 yes, one no, this happens all the time throughout this one vote, said you're so darn guilty

of what you're being accused of doing, we're going to vote to recommend you be indicted. and just a little footnote to this, as a lawyer, i'm a former trial lawyer, not actively practicing anymore, but a lot of lawyers are saying i'm only doing what donald trump was telling me to do. look at these votes. rudy giuliani and donald trump, they have equal footing in equal culpability. if i'm donald, i'm nervous. if i'm the other people that were indicted, i'd be nervous too because somebody thought i had the same criminal exposure as donald trump and we all know donald trump is the kingpin of this. >> if you look at a lot of these, they're the same as donald trump. 20 yes, one no. >> yes. >> meadows, same. >> same thing, right? i want to say, a lot of these

people are going to say i was only acting at the behest of donald trump, only doing blah, blah, blah, you have your own exposure under rico because what you did was just as culpable as donald trump. >> garrett, you're getting reaction to this? >> i was on the story a couple of years ago when it started and i remember at the time when lindsey graham was very much involved in poking around down in georgia in the election results immediately after the 2020 election in the leadup to the runoffs that ultimately handed control of the senate to democrats. i asked him at that time why he was so interested in those cases down in georgia and why he felt it was necessary as a senator from south carolina to be having conversations with the secretary of state in georgia. this is what he told me then, we'll talk about why it is relevant now on the other side. >> did you or did you not ask him to throw out votes? >> no. that's ridiculous. i talked to him about how you verify signatures. i thought it was a nice

conversation. >> why is the senator from south carolina calling the secretary of state in georgia anyway? >> because the future of the country hangs in the balance. >> does it, though? it seems like it is pretty well -- >> it really does. >> i think this goes to the question you were talking about with katie about whether some of the folks could face future indictments. the difference with graham in particular, from some of these other folks, is while he was engaged in that investigatory effort in that mid-november 2020 time period, he said joe biden did win the election, and democrats do control the senate and these elections were valid and sort of turned the page to move on. i think that might be -- i'm speculating here -- an element that speaks to the doubt of the mind of the people in the grand jury and saying here is this guy part of this ongoing conspiracy when he gave at the time answers that clearly indicated what he thought the legislative purpose of this was and when it was over, was one of the people ready to move on.

>> and katie phang, looking at the votes of those specific three legislators, former legislators, at the time current, in graham case, 17 yes, 4 no, zero abstentions. i want to go back to the burt jones issue. the current lieutenant governor of the state, this is printed on. >> yeah. >> so, what do you think burt jones should be thinking now? >> burt jones should be sweating and he has been sweating because the only reason why d.a. fani willis didn't have a run at him is because the judge in georgia said there was a conflict of interest because she hosted a fund-raiser for burt jones' opponent. in order to avoid any suggestion she was politically using her office to prosecute him, a

special prosecutor was to be appointed and that was in the sidelines and they were waiting for what was going to happen with this indictment and once the indictment came out last month, then you're going to have a special prosecutor be appointed. burt jones isn't in the clear yet. but if you look at what the special grand jurors thought, different people than a grand jury, they said ten yes, eight know and three abstentions. there was some element of disagreement that came to the grand jurors when it came to whether or not burt jones was liable for violation of the georgia state rico statute. there is this kind of element of protection you get as a politician that a lot of people flirt with when it comes to legal things because they say speech and debate, or first amendment or i'm just saying it because i'm allowed to say it because i'm a politician, but what we're seeing is, to your point, the mantra for donald

trump is i'm being politically prosecuted for what i said, what i think, what i believe. i didn't actually commit any crimes. that is the uphill battle for any jury selection process for fani willis. can she get jurors that will say, this is criminal conduct separate and apart from somebody's political beliefs this exists because the criminal conspiracy or enterprise was to overturn the lawful election results of the 2020 presidential election. and so that is why the state rico statute is just a gem. it is spectacular. >> different than in other states. the rico charges, in georgia, are different than rico in other states. >> absolutely. it is a more powerful tool in georgia and i like to say that it casts a wide enough net to allow people to come in as i noted, the prosecutor said evidence against all is evidence against one. evidence against one is evidence against all. even though you and i may have been in different places at the same time or different times, if

we're working together toward that common enterprise of overturning the election results, we both have -- we're both criminally liable for and guilty of rico. and that's why it is such an important tool. that is also why, jose, you'll start seeing people peeling off from trump's side. you'll start seeing people say, i need to cut a deal to save myself because if i'm stuck in this rico conspiracy and what kenneth chesebro does and donald trump does is just as bad as what i was doing, i don't want to be part of the bigger fish stuff. >> and how you peel away if you're one of those people is going to be fascinating to see. garrett, i understand the former president has already reacted? >> that's right. he posted on his social media platform and it is leaning into the idea of how broad the universe of people that this grand jury wanted to indict, he says that undermines the d.a.'s case. this post says in part, the georgia grand jury report has

zero credibility, he says, and badly taints fani willis and this whole political witch-hunt for all of these cases. he goes on to say, seasonally, they wanted to indict anybody who happened to be breathing at the time. totally undermines the credibility of the finding and badly hurts the great state of georgia. i think this is the argument we'll hear from the trump folks. by lumping in political actions or what some of these grand juries found to be political actions of these senators, including lindsey graham, three georgia senators, other figures who weren't indicted by the actual grand jury in fulton county, by lumping them in here that this special purpose grand jury, they'll make this argument which is they're coming after me because they really would rather come after you, you good republicans out there, you people who have genuine questions about the 2020 election, look how badly they're coming after us. that is the sort of underlying argument of the whole 2024

campaign and he's going to use this grand jury report to present it through that prism. fani willis' office would turn around and say we got this report, we reviewed it. they'll make the case i think they were much more cautious in their indictment decision-making and how to pursue that with the second grand jury than they were at the investigative grand jury. but we're seeing the outlines of how donald trump and his allies will take this to republican primary voters and argue that once again, he is at the leading edge of an effort to get trump and get republicans and an argument very successful for him in this primary so far. >> an argument we can probably guess is going to be used a whole lot more by the former president and his campaign. >> that's absolutely accurate. that's why he's taking this campaign, essentially, his legal defense on the road. he'll be here in south dakota

for what is essentially a rally hosted by the south dakota gop here later tonight before making his way to iowa for the iowa, iowa state university football game tomorrow. if i may, jose, add one other note here, you're talking about the number of folks going after him, colorado is another place where new lawyers for donald trump out of colorado have filed a petition with a federal court to have the lawsuit that you'll recall was filed here this week against the colorado secretary of state citing the 14th amendment, the section three, the disqualification clause to have him removed from the ballot in colorado here, they -- the lawyers for donald trump petitioned to have that case moved from the state court to federal court. donald trump is not the actual defendant. it is the secretary of state of colorado, but this is a lawsuit, this new petition would suggest that it is going to be moving rather quickly here.

one secretary of state told me they need to have an idea of whether donald trump constitutionally can remain on the ballot in these states in which lawsuits are filed in short order here. the section 3 of the 14th amendment, of course, is the disqualification clause that says if somebody engaged in insurrection or rebellion, they must be removed from public office and from seeking public office. and there are some who suggested as voters in colorado have that donald trump is among those, the state court in new mexico last year found that a county commissioner who had been found guilty for trespassing on january 6th, he was removed from public office and the ballot, but this is going to be a big case here if in fact this does head to a federal district court in colorado. >> and colorado and new mexico and certainly refocusing on georgia, katie, you're thinking today after the publication of this there are a number of people that not everything is

okay. >> yeah. i would still be nervous if i'm some of these people. just because this second grand jury, the special grand jury sat completely separate, different people, different evidence, consider this for a second, that special grand jury had 75 witnesses. the grand jury that returned the true bill, the indictment being prosecuted, nine maybe, eight witnesses. we don't know what we don't know. there is a universe of evidence that fani willis has that we don't know about. and that is why if my name is here, i already knew i was in trouble, right? i knew i broke the law when i broke the law. but if my name is here, not only am i dealing with the public opinion of the fact that somebody recommend i be criminal ly indicted, but fani willis knows a lot more about what i did wrong. >> for the two asking for speedy trials in october, this is not very -- what is it? >> kenneth chesebro and sidney

powell, the only reason why this would make me if i were their defense attorneys nervous is because there was something that was presented by the special grand jury that resulted in this overwhelming vote of guilt. and even though it is unanimous vote that is required to get a conviction, right in criminal court, i would say, i'm nervous to see what that discovery looks like when fani willis gives it to me next week. >> very, very interesting. katie phang, vaughn hillyard, garrett haake, thank you very much. great seeing you in person. thank you. [ speaking in a non-english language ] coming up, another sighting of the convicted killer on the loose in pennsylvania. we'll bring you the very latest on the desperate search and growing fear among residents. you're watching "jose diaz-balart reports" on msnbc. es you're watching "jose diazal-bart reports" on msnbc. ever notice how stiff clothes can feel rough on your skin? for softer clothes that are gentle on your skin, try downy free & gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. the towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. try downy free & gentle. [sneeze]

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43 past the hour. we turn to pennsylvania where the search for a convicted killer who escaped from prison is growing more desperate.

there was another reported sighting in an area where he was seen earlier in the week. hundreds of officers on the ground and in the air have been scouring the county for nine days now. the sister of the woman convicted by -- i should say killed by cavalcante says her family fears he will come after them now. >> i'm scared, me and my family, all the time because i think he, in my mind, is coming now. >> emilie ikeda joins us from unionville, pennsylvania. good morning. what is the latest on the search? >> reporter: well, we're getting some additional insight on this massive manhunt from the command center here. we saw a helicopter take off not too long ago and we got to tour this area, the nervous system, the heart of the operation and a massive one. 350 law enforcement officers at this point, and that presence continues to grow as the search grows more desperate.

inside here, we saw fbi, cvp and the pennsylvania state police, which is leading the investigation. we know that they are really closing in, focusing their efforts on longwood gardens. you heard me talk about longwood gardens throughout the week. that's where we saw the surveillance images come in from the trail cameras, he accumulated more items. he was spotted there on those grounds again yesterday, and the trail camera picked up more pictures turned over to police yesterday as well. they're really circling in around that area and there is some new concern because they're learning there was a reported break in at a home in the area. they're investigating to see if that could have been cavalcante. here is more from police. >> i think we have a good idea in the general area where he's at. but i wouldn't want to say, okay, he's definitely going in this direction. i think he may very well be just kind of trying to lay low right now. >> my intent is to pressure him,

try and contain him and capture him. he'll make a mistake. he'll become more desperate. >> and all week we have been talking about the terrain in this area. really dense woodlands. well, apparently cavalcante is somewhat familiar with this kind of position because after authorities say he murdered and killed someone in brazil, his native country, he alluded authorities in a jungle region before then escaping to puerto rico and ultimately here in the united states. so they say he may be familiar with this sort of thing, but they are still putting the pressure on, hoping to close in that boundary, that perimeter around him as we see it move west and continue to focus on longwood gardens, the sweeping botanical gardens. >> emilie ikeda, thank you very

much. what makes this guy so difficult to find? >> well, so, with regard to his previous background in brazil, he's used to operating in the heat and in wooded areas, right? here we have heavily wooded dense vegetation areas he's navigating. what is coming up soon is that heat wave is over now. and so we have rain moving in here, and it is one thing to be slender and thin and operate in hot temperatures. but it is completely different when you're wet, with the upcoming rains and temperatures dipping now into the mid-60s. we have a game changer here with the upcoming weather that is occurring. and it also helps technology. so, when it is really hot, the thermal imaging systems tends to blend everything together. but in an ideal scenario, it would be late fall, winter, and we would have no leaves and he would stick out like a sun burnt on this technology. but now with the change in the weather coming up, there may be some advances with the use of the technology here in his

search. >> sergeant, that's a change in the weather, you know. we're not talking days, right? he's been out there, we're going up on two weeks now. do you think that he is struggling in any way right now? seems like we see him with a backpack, coming back to areas that he's been at, what does it tell you about what his current state is like? >> yeah, so you have to remember when he escaped, he had about an hour head start between the time he escaped and the time of the lockdown and the involvement of law enforcement. during that time, the average person, they can walk 12 to 15 minutes, cover a mile, and when you have an hour, you know, he can expand like four miles and cover that terrain and that time very, very quickly. so, one of the things we see here is these sightings, you know, these trail cam sightings are at night. it indicates he's moving at nighttime. some of the sightings that we have seen during the day he's like running back into the

woods. so he left the prison with nothing. so he acquired these items, this backpack, the sling bag that he has, you know, there is some reports that he broke into a home and was stealing food. so he does need food and water to survive. and in this area, there is a lot of streams, there is ponds, in addition to the dense vegetation that he has to navigate. so, you know it does make it difficult. i know that as he continues to navigate and peeks out of the woods and looks and sees law enforcement, he has no choice but to turn around and double back, back into the woods because of the perimeter that has been set. and he has no navigation. he may be lost. he may be going in circles because the only thing he has navigation-wise, like everybody knows the sunrises in the east and sets in the west. when he's in the dense brush, he has no idea which direction he's going. >> sergeant, pretty clear he is acting alone. >> yes. yes, that's true. he's on his own.

and, you know, with that, you know, mentality, like, you know, again, colonel bivens mentioned the perimeter and wearing him down, you know, the people that they have dedicated to this manhunt and the resources they have in conjunction with the technology, that's not going to wear down wear down as quickly as he is going to wear down. every day that passes, he gets a little more weaker, a little more in need of water, food, and he has to be tired. his movement i'm sure as they continue to keep him moving, it continues to make him sleep deprived. he is going to make a mistake. that's one of the things the police will capitalize upon. >> sergeant, thank you for being with us this morning. appreciate your time. overseas and moments ago, president biden wrapped up a meeting with india's prime minister modi. the white house signalled the president will talk with fellow leaders about climate, energy,

and food security. tomorrow's summit will bring together leaders from the world's 20 largest economies with two major exceptions, putin and xi jinping. joining us is mike memoli. it's 9:20 in the evening for you. three months ago, biden hosted prime minister modi for a state visit at the white house. what do we know about the meeting today? >> reporter: jose, to paraphrase one of the president's favorite expressions, if you want to know what you value, look at your budget. look at the itinerary of not just the president but members of his cabinet. we have seen more than a half dozen members of the president's cabinet travel to india over the course of the year. you mentioned the president hosting prime minister modi in washington for a state visit a few months ago. now the president just finishing up nearly an hour-long meeting with the prime minister ahead of his attendance at the summit tomorrow. the u.s. placed a priority on

this relationship, an effort to counter china's influence here in the indo-pacific region. the g20 is different than the g7 summit. in that setting, there's unanimity among the closest allies on major issues, especially the war in ukraine. the g20 different story. we will see efforts to find consensus like development of the global south, poorer countries. that's complicated by differences over the war in ukraine. you mentioned it. russia's president vladimir putin not in attendance. xi jinping of china also not in attendance. highlighting the greater disparity of opinions within the g20. the president trying to make that point about the fact that the u.s., major democracies are showing up, are doing their best to try to grow the economies around the world. that's going to be a continuation of what we see when the president leaves here to go

to vietnam. one-time adversary, now set to announce enhanced levels of partnership with the united states going forward. >> mike memoli in new delhi, thank you very much. up next, the future of abortion access in florida is now in the hands of the state supreme court. what this means for patients and providers. you are watching "jose diaz-balart reports request the " ""on msnbc. ""on msnbc (jen) so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) with verizon business, we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) so our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) it's not just a network. it's enterprise intelligence. (vo) learn more. it's your vision, it's your verizon. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy.

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56 past the hour. florida's supreme court heard arguments in a case that could help determine the future of abortion access across the state. they brought a challenge to a law that bans most abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy. governor desantis appointed five of the seven justices on the highest court. joining us now, guad venegas. what's the real impact of this? >> it's going to have a big impact in florida.

this is either going to be a double win or a double loss for either side. these arguments heard today with the florida supreme court are from one side, which is the abortion advocates, abortion providers and attorneys who are arguing that the 15-week ban is illegal because of an amendment to the florida constitution in the '80s that protects privacy in the state of florida. the argument is that under that amendment, abortion is protected. the supreme court is now hearing arguments from both sides. they are arguing the constitution does not protect abortion rights for the state. this is the reason why this would be a double win or double loss. florida approved a six-week ban this year. that will go into affect only if the supreme court upholds this 15-week ban. if they uphold that. that would mean they would have the 15-week abortion ban and then 30 days later they would

have the six-week abortion ban go into affect. if the supreme court sides with the challengers, then that would mean the florida state constitution protects abortion rights in the state of florida. essentially, they would be protected to have an abortion even after 15 weeks, the people of florida. >> it's either a 15, a six or both out? >> exactly. >> thank you very much. appreciate it. before we wrap up this hour, i want to finish with good news to end the week. a great grandfather in california is lucky to be alive after being trapped in his truck for five days, 100 feet down a ravine. the 60-year-old's truck went off a click. on saturday, two dirt bikers heard him screaming and called for help. they were able to hoist him up. he spoke with ktla from his

hospital bed about what it was like to wait those five days. >> this story has a great ending. doctors say he is going to be just fine. a great way to wrap up this hour. that wraps up the hour for me. i'm jose diaz-balart. you can always reach me on social media. you can watch highlights from today's show online. thank you for the privilege of your time. ryan nobles in for andrea mitchell picks up with more news right now. thanks.

right now on "andrea mitchell reports," we are learning the georgia special grand jury recommended charging michael flynn, senator lindsey graham and 19 others in the 2020 election interference investigation. but they were ultimately not indicted by district attorney fani willis. this as president trump throws his co-defendant, rudy giuliani, a bedminster fund-raiser. with coronavirus cases surging, millions of kids head back to school. president biden is wheels down in new delhi, meeting with india's prime minister ahead of the g20 summit. ♪♪ good afternoon. i'm ryan nobles in washington. andrea is traveling back from her assignment in