coco gauff, 19 years old. last year ben was playing college tennis. now playing in the real big league. >> all right. we're going to watch, see how he does. right now down one set but maybe will come back. thank you very much. that does it for me today. "deadline: white house" with nancy pelosi starts right now. hi to everyone. happy friday. 4:00 in new york. three u.s. senators, former national security advisor, prominent trump attack dog, sitting in with a lieutenant governor and a partridge in a pear tree. the 1 people ended up indicted. finally, fani willis, sprawling racketeering case in overturning

the 2020 insurrection. and culmination of months of investigation including testimony from 75 witnesses. the report is 28 pages in total. does not read exactly like poetry but does reveal more than a few bombshells. the names on the list recommended for indictment by this special grand jury include -- three republican senators. including lindsey graham and both of georgia's republican senators at the time of the 2020 election. david perdue and kelly loeffler. trump's former national security advisor, mike flynn. trump advisor boris epshteyn, georgia's turn the sitting lieutenant governor bert jones and attorney, big life peddlering, mitchell. 19 people charged by fani willis including the ex-president himself, but today's revelations

are a reminder that the web of criminal exposure that was involved in the plot to overturn the 2020 election extends far and wide and way beyond the indictments already handed down in fani willis's sprawling racketeering case. regarding lindsey graham and mike flynn and boris epshteyn, grand jury charged with respect to the national effort to overturn the 2020 presidential election. focused on efforts in georgia, arizona, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania and the district of columbia. the report also shows that the vote to recommend an indictment for lindsey graham was not a unanimous one. 13 jurors voted recommend charges. 7 no. 1 abstained. noting one person the special grand jury did not recommend charging against but one of the ex-president's opponents, instrumental in setting out fake

trump electors. brand new revelations at the fulton county special grand jury called for charges against an even wider net of trump allies and what that says about the case ultimately brought by fani willis is where we start today with our favorite experts, reporters and friends. former lead investigators, clayton hickey back and editor at large for the bull wort and msnbc news charlie seitz is here. msnbc legal an vist angie is here for the hour. tim, i start with you. your sort ofintimate understanding. the national plot smt of what you investigated and put in this category of "team crazy" of the conduct trump overheard from the oval, the rally the night

before. is that what you read in terms of what this special grand jury thought those individuals who were not ultimately charged were guilty of? >> yes. there's no question, nicolle, focus of the d.a. was broader than georgia and extended to this national effort to generate these fake slates of electors. what i found really significant beyond the names in this special grand jury report is yet another voice including no fraud, right? on page 2, the grand jury says we find by unanimous vote that no widespread fraud took place in the georgia 2020 presidential election, that could lead to overturning that election. right? yet again we keep coming back to that fundamental question that there is just no evidence of fraud. that is the foundation of the fani willis case and the special counsel case of all of this and the grand jury examined that question and found no evidence.

so there's a lot in here to unpack about the sprawling nature of the conspiracy, who did what, but i didn't want to get too far from that core conclusion, yet another credible voice finding a front. >> i think we can -- be even more declarative. right? every voice that has examined facts has found no evidence. right? every judge, every trump-appointed judge, every legislature, every trump ally, secretary of state, every trump-aligned republican governor, all come to the same conclusion knop fraud, because there wasn't any fraud. i want to drill down on mike flynn. special grand jury finds evidence that mike flynn was involved in the national plot and in this group with these states that all send or try to send fake electors. how far -- let me play some of liz cheney's interview with mike flynn and the then i want to ask you how far you were able to get with him. >> yeah.

>> yes. general flynn, do you believe the violence on january 6th was justified? >> clarification, a moral question that you're asking or a -- >> i'm asking both. >> i said, i said -- >> do you believe violence on january 6th was justified morally? >> i take the fifth. >> do you the violence on january 6th was justified legally? >> no. >> do you believe in the peaceful transition of power in the united states of america? >> the fifth. >> so mike flynn, a right to do what they did there, but what is -- so he's testifying under

oath, and must take the fifth to not answer truthfully under oath whether or not he believes the violence on january 6th was justified legally. what does mike flynn, what is he protecting himself from? >> yeah. a good question, nichole. frankly shocking to us that he would not even answer basic questions like whether violence was justified. he took the fifth to essentially every question. mike flynn is significant, because he has direct communication with the president. he's there on december 18th in that crazy meeting at which the seizure of voting machines under iepa is proposed. former national security advisor, an effort to seize voting machines, advised foreign government creating a national security risk to safety of this country. right? that puts him right in the center of at least one of those

possible attempts to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. he makes a lot of public statements. he puts for absent evidence, all of these crazy theories of voter fraud and questions legitimacy of the vote. there's a lot there for which mike flynn arguably had a valid fifth amendment privilege. the questions asked about supporting violence, kind of surprising, but he has legitimate exposure as a conspiracy. >> do you think that mike flynn's conduct has been thoroughly investigated by jack smith? >> really hard to say. mike flynn was not cooperative with us. my guess, resisted at every step providing documents and information to the special counsel. mike flynn also had oath keepers or proud boys, i forget which, traveling with him as security. potential linkage through flynn

to white house, without officials and those extremist groups. we didn't get to the bottom of that, whether that is a connection that he made or not. there's a lot of unanswered questions about general flynn beyond his really tenure public statements without basis that the election was stolen. >> mike flynn gets pardoned. i meant to look up a the date. i don't have the date. somewhere here in the final days or weeks of the trump presidency. mike flynn pleads guilty to the crimes he was charged with by the moehler team in court three times. it's my understanding that when first confronted he -- he sort of copped to the conduct pretty quickly. mike flynn is guarded by extremists. many of whom now convicted of seditious conspiracy. interestingly, this intersection of trump's allies and the current threat of domestic violence extremism, mike flynn is everywhere. he's sort of like the -- i don't

want to make a parallel to anyone that is in good standing, but he's an evangelist for a lie and the conduct, and i wonder why you think he hasn't been indicted by either the state probe looking into his conduct or the federal one? >> so mike flynn is, sort of fascinating figure. you'll remember that mike flynn is the person who president obama warned incoming president trump about. >> in an oval office meeting deposition? >> exactly. saying essentially something's wrong. >> with him. >> with him. >> and -- you know, i'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but the hard to understand what happened, because he did, he used to have a very serious high position. it's hard to understand how that was possible given how completely erratic he is now.

he, if you remember, was fired as the national security advisor, because he lied to mike pence. sort of interesting that mike pence is yet another victim here and he was, like, i went on sunday talk shows and repeated those lies, because i'd been told it by the new incoming national security advisor. he then was charged and pled guilty in the mueller investigation, and at the end of that, before he was sentenced. >> just to remind everybody. it's ancient history. but he lies about something he had the power to be the policy -- he could have -- lied about his conversations, could have whatever he wanted to kislyak? >> yes, could have been politically embarrassing. >> maybe. ends up pleading guilty to felonies. that's a little more embarrassing. >> absolutely. and then, of course, he lied to

the fbi, which followed his lying to the new sitting vice president of the united states. as the national security advisor. you should be fired for that. and that was in the days when trump still cared about that, and he's been resurrected as, like, i shouldn't have fired him, which as if it's okay to lie to the sitting vice president. he then withdrew his plea and announced that he was not guilty, meaning that he lied to the judge when he said -- >> right. >> that he was guilty. he's now -- >> sidney powell is his lawyer at this point. >> exactly. exactly. so you have somebody who clearly is never going to be a cooperating. people are thinking maybe he didn't get charged because he's cooperating. there is no way in god's green earth that that is happening anymore than sidney powell is going to be a cooperator. if i had to guess sort of -- >> why? because he's so indebted to

trump at this point with the pardon, by the way, november 25th. weeks after the election, but weeks before the -- >> yes. had to be pardoned. remember, the judge saying i'm not sure i'm going to give this plea back because i think the justice department under bill barr is colluding with sidney powell and this was a big issue, and sort of forced donald trump's hand to say, if you want to get rid of this case, you're going to have to pardon him. i'm not going to take the direction, the collusive attorney general getting rid of this case. the judge really stood up to saying that, i see what's going on here. and then mike flynn has now been you know, on the, the stump for donald trump and what you would call -- >> the earth's craziest actor on earth circuit. >> right. cooperating? never going to happen, we would know it, because -- in terms of why. that's not why he has not been

charged. not that he somehow is a cooperator. if i had to guess, like, why it hasn't happened yet, it, in part, is one thing for the grand jury to say there's probable cause, because when you're listing all of these name, that's probable cause. if you're a prosecutor, it's fine for the grand jury to find probable cause, but you're not saying i'm going to charge everyone as to whom there's probable cause. you're thinking then i have to go to trial and the proof you need up here, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. jack smith is a fantastic prosecutor. a fantastic, and fantastic team and been on the job for a nanosecond. for a new york minute. you think how much he's accomplished, which is incredible indictments, keeping his eye on the ball, which is donald trump. already know he has six unindicted co-conspirators, a lot of times they are people who you wanted to get to but have not gotten to yet.

>> and you watch what is going on down in georgia now with the hearing a day, and you can see some of the, not to compare them, but you can see the view from jack smith to how demeanor -- >> his strategy worked. if he was, like, the keep your eye on the prize, the main things here is donald trump. that is the person as to whom there is a clock ticking nap is the person who can pardon himself, somebody who can get rid of any federal case if he is elected. by doing this if you remember, judge chutkan in the d.c. case a single defendant, four charges. this was not 19. not default fani willis, no to fault fani willis. she doesn't have to deal with a pardon. she has more time on her hand. so you really understand jack smith's strategy, which i think is, it's the right one and it is

actually worked, and now i think he's going to hold on to that trial date and try to do everything he can to keep it, which means if i were thinking, is he going to not supersede but charge other people? i think he's going to think twice about the timing of that, so that there isn't a claim of slowing down the trump case, because they should somehow be added in with other people. >> charlie, liz cheney as the -- vice chair of the committee, saved her most scathing comments for trump, but right underneath him they went to her republican colleagues and she described their dishonor as a stain on the party and country. now three examples. right? exhibits a., b. and c. former senators loeffler and perdue and current senator and part-time trump golf bag carrier lindsey graham. >> well, it is a reminder we

would not be here today if it was not for all of these actors and players in the republican party who decided they would go along with the big lie and attempt to overturn the election. if republicans had said early on we don't want to be part of this. the election is over. we do support the peaceful transfer of power this wouldn't be happening. if they had been united condemning what happened january 6th, this wouldn't be happening. held donald trump accountable this wouldn't be happening. this has been a story of the radicalization of the republican party, and you know, those three senators were involved early on, but think how many actors now are willing to say that they're okay with what donald trump did here, and so it's one thing for donald trump to about sore loser, for donald trump to take his ball and go home, refuse to go to the inauguration. but it's something very different when an entire political party basically shrugs

its shoulders, or is willing to be, willing to be co-conspirators in the attempt to overturn the election. this is very much part of the story. this is very much part of the narrative. it may not be part of the criminal charge, because fani willis the went wide. could have gone wider but a down side chasing, going down too many rabbit holes and i think the nay oher targeting by both jack smith and fani willis in the indictments are prudent legal steps. >> tamp down on lindsey graham. he said today what he did in georgia, he'll do it again. it was part of, let's see his quote. consistent with his job at a senator. how rafsensburger described what lindsey graham did. "senator graham implied for us the state of georgia to audit the envelopes and throw out the ballots for counties who it highest frequency varies of signatures i tried to explain

recounting the signature match you couldn't tie them back anymore to the ballots just as if you voted in-person. my name is not on my ballot so it can't be tied back to me. it's really something around for 100 years. the secret ballot." what lindsey graham says to do again is call other states secretaries of state and have them do something that the secretary of state says isn't done? that's where we are. >> yeah. that's where we are. story of lindsey graham is, a long and winding road to this, this particular moment. i'm not going to speculate what's happened to lindsey graham but lindsey graham, who is the senator from a completely different state calls up the secretary of state and tries to get him to throw out votes. tries to get him to -- to find flawed does not exist. i want to go back to timothy's point. it's significant once again finding of this special grand jury that there was no significant fraud in georgia. so all of these efforts are baseless. all of these efforts are an

attempt to overturn an election on completely illegitimate grounds and lindsey graham was part of that, and the fact that he knows that now and says he will do it again ought to be a warning that we're not just talking about something that happened in the past. we're talking about something that, you know, a very real threat of, the next several election cycles. >> and it's why the republican party is covered on this show as a current grave threat to the democracy. because lindsey graham's position today when the special grand jury report is released today, is that, again, i want to quote him accurately. "it was consistent with my job as the senator and i would do it gep." again, what raffensperger said, asking him to do, was, "audit the envelopes and throw out the ballots for counties who had highest frequency of error." this is where we are heading into the next presidential election. makes the hair on the back of my

neck stand up. i need you all to stick around. when we come back much more on all this and i want to show you what chris christie who would know. one of trump's close allies during his presidency says trump thinks when he sees all of this friend in the news in a criminal context. also much more on -- one of the ex-presidential biggest critics, what he's saying of the cracks in trump world and what happens to trump, as we're seeing when they flip on him. and what congresswoman nancy pelosi is saying today. she's not finished yet announcing she'll seek another term in the nation's capitol. a top priority the last few years, protecting our democracy. talk to her whether that factored into her decision to stay. this when speaker emerita nancy pelosi joins us coming up. and later a new lawsuit in the site to of colorado challenging whether the ex-presidential actions make him

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♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ well, two things will happen. one, this man will be vilified, attacked and savaged by donald trump publicly. and then secondly, donald trump will lay in his bed at night staring up at the ceiling trying to remember every conversation we ever had with this guy while he's sick to his stomach and this is going to repeat itself then over and over and over again over the course of the next number of months. it's going to repeat 12e68 in

georgia, co-defendants invariably will take a deal and cooperate against donald trump and the may happen in this matter, federal trials pending with folked who are indicted or unindicted co-conspirators. this is what the republican party is facing. >> we're back with tim, charlie and i thought it was interesting and wanted to ask you sort of knowing the evidence and the players in georgia, i thought chesebro might be a possible person chris christie is thinking of. sidney powell maybe the mike flynn category isn't or probably will never cooperate, but could you give us an, i know i'm asking you, not a question. knowing some of these witnesses, look who's been charged in georgia. who do you think that most applies to? that most worries trump about? >> yeah. really, it's difficult to predict who will cooperate and

who will not. i've been surprised in both directions through the years. simply who you'd never expect given their proximity toy a more significant target of an investigation will make a decision to cooperate. whereas others really far afield arguably, very little connection, will decide not to. i mean, if you sort of look outward from proximity to the president, the people that are farthest away from him that have the least pre-existing connection, professional or personal affiliation most likely. all of dangerous. they all have information that would be potentially useful to prosecutors and potentially lead to unfolding of the president and governor former governor christie is right's in these investigations everyone is making his or her own calculus whether or not it's in their interests to make a deal. i expect some will, and those

sleepless nights chris christie talks about are likely to continue. >> the thing that i think you understand if you covered trump as a politician is that the i.t. guy who's flipped in the documents case is as lethal to trump legally as meadows because trump had his wheel on the micromini. hi picks the songs. obsessed with pictures of himself end up on his trading cards. obsessed with the macro because he had no head for the macro. the idea who could be dangerous it is not the obvious, oh mark meadows has to flip nap is not the answer. in the case of the documents case, the i.t. guy, "deleting the server because the boss wanted it deleted" is as dangerous as anyone who was a masterminding the obstruction in the first place. >> yeah. cooperators can come from all sorts of places, and usually

when you're prosecuting somebody hoops a ceo or boss, the issue, who had contact. who can actually get you into the room with firsthand information? but if you remember, in the documents case, there was a discussion where they talk about trump as "my beautiful mind" because he was so obsessed with the details. >> classified stuff in his closet. >> don't touch my boxes. >> right. >> so it can really come from the top, and anywhere down to the bottom in terms of social status. i would say if i were guessing i used to not think think, but rudy giuliani, i'm not sure a great cooperating witness, but he is in a, just a world of hurt. he is about to be wiped out financially in his case. the decision by former chief judge powell makes it plain she believes he's sitting on some

discovery that he desperately does not want to turn over nap is why he's in the position he's in with a summary judgment against him and only damages to be decided. he is selling sort of his last known asset, and -- in georgia, he's facing not just sort of big picture crime but also the civil case, facing the criminal side of that. which has such incredible jury appeal. because it's not just democracy writ large victimized but two people just doing their job. so he -- you know, and he knows. she somebody who is a former u.s. attorney, like chris christie, and is a rational actor. interesting to see what he does, because there's just so much pressure on him, on the criminal and civil side. >> out of money and out of

friends, why trump's raising money for him. trump's doing fund-raiser for his legal team fund. go back to the investigation and the time we spent a week a short trip, part of this, this piece about voting machines and part of so bat bleep crazy even rudy says, whoa! even rudy! why it's the ultimate you know -- it's the ultimate plot twist and shows that all of our minds have been perverted by trump because we want to throw them a parade. it's ludicrous. also the kind of information that a desperate man might be enticed to share. >> i'm slightly more skeptical than andrew whether or not rudy giuliani is a rational actor, but let's not give out bad taste. talking about the anxiety donald trump has about witnesses, because one of the things we've

seen is how obsessed donald trump is with keeping people close to him. >> hmm. >> the report laid out all effort of obstruction of justice he engaged in or used the prospect of pardons. certainly argue one of the reasons donald trump has an escape accountable until now because he has effectively and successfully obstructed justice and is -- one of the reasons why he makes sure that, that people around him are paid -- that he's paying for their lawyers. the fact he held a $100,000 a head fund-raiser for rudy giuliani last night i speaks speaks volumes how serious he is about keeping guys like this close, because he does not want them to flip. so you know, it is useful to often, you know, look at the trump orbit compared to the way a mafia don operates and realize that the one thing they hate the

most is they hate the rats. hate the people who are going to turn on them. this is one of the insights i think that chris christie has. he understands how donald trump does business. >> chris christie also lived through a, still extremely close trump, when cohen flips and lived through, on receiving end of all the late-night angst from trump. a period that i covered myself. so he knows what he's talking about when he talks about what trump, lays awake at night thinking about. tim, thank you so much for spending time with us here. your insights are so valuable. charlie sticks around. andrew back top of the next hour. up next for us, a privilege. former house speaker, house speaker nancy pelosi one of the loudest strongest voices fighting back against donald trump while president through two impeachments and an attack on the united states capitol. threats against his own vice president and today she's announced she is not done yet.

pelosi believed this is still an urgent need for pro-democracy voices like hers in washington. she's our guest next. stay with us. ith us. written by those who work it. like the upshaws. the nelsons. and the caggianos. run with us and start telling your story. ♪ ♪ wake up, gotta go! c'mon, c'mon. -gracie, c'mon. let's go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully.

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mass voter fraud but i did have concerns about the mail-in ballot systems in georgia and other places. the next election if i have questions i'll do the same thing. >> that was inspector clouseau. a/k/a, senator lindsey graham saying inspected both and will do it again. seemingly irrepentant of the grand jury report recommending charging him because of the things he did in connection with efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election in georgia. it's a tark reminder of how fragile our democracy remains in the wake of an attempted coup and how some republican members of congress are continuing to say the things that led to that horrific day, and it is in that spirit, in that context, that former house speaker and california democratic congresswoman nancy pelosi announced today she will technique re-election in 2024. if re-elected this would be

speaker employs's 20th nerm office for her san francisco area district which she represented since 1987. despite some chatter in the country and in the democratic party and enthusiasm for new and younger leaders, speaker pelosi remains a draw and a force for democracy and for the president's agenda and brings decades' worth of experience and a resume of battling the ex-president to the job. joining us now is democratic congresswoman from california speaker nancy pelosi. thank you so much for being here with us on this day. >> my pleasure. my pleasure, thank you, nichole. >> so much of what we know about you are those fierce moments we had up on the screen. i remember that day. i think i was on the air that day, you stood up in the roosevelt room and said to trump, with you it's always about russia. sort of your unique ability to confront, not just him but his enablers. you have a very able successor

in congressman jeffress and i wonder what went into your decision to stay, stay in congress? >> well, actually i said with you it's always about putin. >> that's right. that's right. >> specifically. >> that's right. >> but in any case, i feel very exhilarated by the encouragement high to continue resting my great city of san francisco. you have the white house behind you. i have homes in san francisco behind me, and that is my strength. and the needs that our city have right now really call for me to stay another term. i -- had the privilege of representing san francisco for a long time. and they have given me the latitude to serve as speaker, as leader for over 20 years, and witness well, visit 87 countries served 30 years on the intelligence committee. all of those things. at the same time being central

to my service was representing my district. gratitude to them for that. i have agreed to stay on another term, in order to help meet the needs that we have now. resilient, our city. had aids, earthquakes, of course all had pandemic. we intend to come out of this resilient city that we are in, even better. now, at the same time, our democracy is at risk when we talk nationally, and globally, people are concerned about what it means that our democracy is at risk, and what it means to the war in ukraine and what it means to our relationship with nato. and other alliances we have. so i am motivated to do everything i can to win this election. i think it's urgent for our democracy, for our relationships worldwide and more importantly for every kitchen table discussion in our country,

america's working families, to offset what republicans are trying to do. right now they're trying to undo the i.r.a., inflection reduction act. meaning raise cost of prescription drugs for seniors. offset what we're doing to protect the planet from the climate crisis. there's urgency in terms of my city. our issues here and the global conflict between democracy and autocracy. >> let's start with san francisco as you know is my hometown. one of my most favorite places on earth. uc-berkeley grad and a berkeley native. it does need voices and powerful people in washington. what is your specific -- what is your prescription for helping the city from within? i mean, it is the subject of constant attack segments on conservative media, and the tragedy to me seems they can

find enough examples of the most heinous things to say about our beautiful city to further the smears and the attacks. how do you turn san francisco around? >> well, let me just say that these attacks are not unusual from the right. we have the "new york times" having a field day about one thing or another in san francisco. we wonder about them, too. but nonetheless, the fact is we do have an isolated situation in the downtown san francisco in tenderloin and the rest who are very much concerned about it, if there -- there is crime and violence and drugs, there will be arrests and that's the way it is, and it doesn't matter if the spurn documented or not. person is documented or not, they will be prosecuted. that's something we brought in that the, fro the justice

department. the "operation overdrive" to address that problem. so it's about mental health issues that lead to homelessness and drug use, leading to homelessless and affordable housing and we are providing housing and people have to accept it. if they don't, there's the ability to take them off the street and taking them off the street takes drug use off the streets, drug sales off the streets. the fentanyl issue is not just confined to san francisco. it's a national issue, and we all have to work together. that's what i'm concerned about with what republican, doing in congress. they're shut down or their cuts and all the rest will limit or ain't to fight the fentanyl crisis which is an assault, i mean, every community is at risk with that, but i, again, our city has, we've been through a lot. we'll come through this this very well but it's confined to a certainly part of town and i wish people would recognize that because our city is beautiful, clean, and we'd love for them to

visit. >> and the market area. not just the tenderloin. always had its challenges but people live in other neighborhoods afraid to do their shopping. retailers blasted. brazenness of the theft from people that live in other -- ute you're right. it is a city all -- if not rattled and scared, embarrassed by the images of the brazenness of some of the thefts. is it your sense can you help at a federal level, or are you using sort of your ability and your personal diplomacy, thaerch knows you and covered knows it's in a league of its own to bring local leaders around to see this articulated? these are national problems but the spotlight are on our beautiful city. >> yeah. that's true, and it's not confined. these thefts that you're talking about are not defined to just in

san francisco. >> of course not. happening all over in malls and retail sales and happening in new york city. people walk in and steal clothes. absolutely that is true. scrutiny seems especially harsh and in some instances disoriented, but nonetheless able to find examples in our beautiful city. >> well it is -- i take issue with what you're saying except in pacific heights. there are issue there's -- >> your husband brutally attacked in -- crime is indiscriminate. >> of course. >> but the fact is, it's that -- the -- what we are focusing on right now is the fentanyl issue, crime and vile answer that goes with it. the other issuing are issue wes have to deal with and that's in our stained other cities. actually our crime rate is lower than most cities. most people don't know that, because that's not what the press has to say about it. but we're very proud of our

city. we have great unity and a decision to get the job done. and that's really important, because lots of times we have some debates about one thing and another, but right now we're in a, of one mind. it's over. this has to end. that's that. and at the same time, our city is alive and vibrant and thriving and it's great. and i'm proud to represent it. it is a city of saint frances, and that's our anthem. make me an instrument of thy peace, dark news light, despair hope, you know. that's our spirit and that spirit will be unified and come out of this more resilient than ever. again, my fight for our city is individual and parochial and in certain neighborhoods but our fight for meeting needs of the people of our city is the same

across the country. how do we address kitchen table needs? joe biden has done an excellent job doing that. he's ban great president pap great union president and good for jobs. creates 9 million jobs lost under covid. additional 4 million jobs. so 13 million jobs altogether. has cut in half inflation. that's not good enough, we have to go down further but he has cut it in half the -- the unemployment rate. whether you're talking about the rescue package, the infrastructure, the infrastructure bill, c.h.i.p. or saving our planet and reducing cost of prescription drugs for seniors, he's done a remarkable job. i want to say i saw a poll that didn't look so good and 59%

republicans as respondents. did very well in a poll with 59% republicans respondents. >> we don't do polls. i'm not sure they're right very often especially after the midterms. one more question. you mentioned that crime is everywhere, it's real. obviously, your husband was attacked in our beautiful city. and i think of you and i think of him when i see threats of violence and reckless and careless language thrown around by trump and other republicans now that he's been indicted in four jurisdictions against jack smith, fani willis. fani willis yesterday responded to some house republican colleagues who are seeking to reach into her criminal investigation and i wonder if thinking about your own safety and staying in the congress anyway was your act of die fines? defiance, saying, "i will not be intimidated"?

>> i'm not one to be intimidated period. >> we all know that. >> i have to address the needs of my district who have been generous to me and in enabling knee become the first woman speaker of the house, and that's a little bit of time away from home, as well as now meeting their needs. so that's my that would that wo call on whether i would run or not. my other responsibility to save our democracy, which we all have, to protect and defend, that's the oath we take. now, my whole theme on all of this is our flag is still there. our flag, that's in the national anthem. you know, i'm from baltimore and proud of the national anthem being written in baltimore and everybody cheers towards the end but i cheer when they say, proof through the night that our flag is still there. that's what we have to do. make sure that we will know our flag is still there with liberty and justice for all, and that's the role i intend to play.

i've said to people of that election if you want to win the election you have to make a decision to win and then you have to make every decision in favor of winning. so i've made my decision in favor of winning. i don't want to see any underutilized resource, any wasted time or any regrets the day after the election that we all didn't do everything in our power to protect and defend, to make sure that our flag is still there with liberty and justice for all. >> you are talking about the things that used to be sacred in both parties and i just have to ask you, i've got a chance to interview judge luttig who in a political sense you view as a policy adversary but now he's one of the most vocal explainers in our country about how donald trump is now constitutionally prohibited from even being on the ballot that the 14th -- section 3 of the 14 md amendment makes it unconstitution am to be on the ballot if you aided or incited an insurrection.

what do you think about that conversation? >> well, it's interesting, as you point out, the direction it's coming from. not from the left, but from serious on the right constitutional scholars, and that's something that i get asked about all the time, i'll just leave it up to the constitutional scholars to describe that, but i think at the same time we have to understand that he's not the only one that if you see the actions of the republicans in congress, you know that we have to win the election, so the courts will do what they do. the scholars will do what they do, but we have to win the election, because otherwise you see us on the brink of a possible shutdown, which impedes our ability to meet the needs of the american people to fight fentanyl, to fight all kinds of things that are challenging out there including our national security. when you have a senator who's held up 300 appointments in our

defense department and you wonder how could that possibly be and how do the republicans let him get away with that? nonetheless, winning the election is central for us, because what's his name is one person and others will decide whether he can run or he can't run. the courts will decide further what his exposure and ville neshlt is. i don't go anywhere near that. i did what i did in terms of two impeachments in the congress, seeing his behavior, he is not above the law. neither are any of these other people above the law, and we just have to make the fight. and do it with clarity and unity and how we go forward has to be in a way that unifies america, that just doesn't further divide and nobody is better at that than joe biden, the most empathetic, a visionary and knowledgeable person with great judgment, strategic thinker but a person of great heart, who cares about the american people. he cares about the people and

has great empathy for them and again winning the election it's a medicine that cures many ills. >> speaker nancy pelosi --s if. >> as the dalai lama would say. >> we covered everything from lindsey graham to the dalai lama. i think for today that's pretty good. thank you very much. to be continued. thank you very much for spending time with us. >> my pleasure. >> we'll be right back. rsv is in for a surprise.

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the case for ethical reform for our nation's highest court keeps getting stronger by the hour. earlier today supreme court justice samuel alito said he will not recuse himself from hearing a tax case argued by a lawyer, who personally interviewed alito twice in opinion pieces in "the wall street journal" defending the justice against criticisms of, wait for it, his ethics. there's no valid reason for my recusal in this case when mr. rivk participated in the interviews and co-authored the articles. he did so as a journalist not an advocate. nothing to see here. alito was responding to chair richard durbin's questions over his participation which along with reporting about justice

clarence thomas' financial relationship with right wing billionaire harlan crow has led to increasingly loud calls for court reform. another break for us. we'll be right back.

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but to the point of donald trump exaggerates and lies, there is a bigger issue that is the basis of the lawsuit. he incited the insurrection and tried to steal the election from

the american people. there are a lot of questions about if that affects his valid access and something i hope a court will decide and provide guidance tore seconds of state all across the nation but specifically in the state of colorado. >> hi, everyone. 5:00 in new york. rather thankfully those accountability hawks among us, these days it feels as though you could throw a rock in the air and hit one of the many attempts to hold donald trump accountable for one of his many crimes. the epicenter of that is colorado. six voters are right now seeking to remove the disgraced ex-president from that state's ballots for his role in the january 6th attack. the mechanism at the heart of this effort in colorado is the 14th amendment, those six voters along with citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington and a number of law firms are making a case that under section 3 of the 14th

amendment with -- which says no person shall hold any office if they engaged in insurrection or rebellion after having taken an oath to support the constitution. based on that trump should be barred from the ballot. the coalition incisions it would be in their word, improper and, quote, a breach or neglect of duty for colorado's secretary of state jena griswold we heard from to allow his name to appear on future ballot, primaries, elections or general election ballots. so, what's trump doing? what he does best, of course, ranting and raving and trying to work it. his lawyers filed to have the case bumped up to federal court citing the, quote, underlying federal constitutional issue in dispute. as we said trump is also spending his time telling the citizens that the lawsuit itself amounts to election

interference. listen to just a little bit. >> and what they're doing is -- it's called election interference and all these lawsuits get in the way. now, the 14 m 578dment is just a continuation of that. it's nonsense, nobody's even said it's insurrection. by the way, there wasn't any guns in the capitol, you know, the insurrection is frankly the people that insur recktenwalded on the election and rigged the election. >> sorry we had to do that. to be clear there were guns at the u.s. capitol. it was an insurrection. for god's sake there's no proof anywhere including a report that was released today that the election was fraudulent or rigged, none, zero, nada. but the point is this, get trump under oath, get him in front of a jury and all of a sudden telling the truth and dealing with facts and the constitution is infinitely more important. where we start with colorado secretary of state jena griswold

and joining us, ben rhodes and former top justice department official and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann is back with us. madam secretary, take us through -- we just asked speaker pelosi about it. she said she'll leave it up to the courts and folks like yourself. tell me where things stand in colorado. >> well, in colorado, a lawsuit was filed to see if trump is disqualified for inciting the insurrection and trying to steal the 2020 election from the american people. section 3 of the 14 amendment amendment says someone who swears to protect the constitution cannot hold office if they engage in rebellion or insurrection or comfort or aid the enemies of the constitution. this lawsuit has a lot of really novel questions about that provision in the constitution and we will see what a court says. i think it's good a court will have to weigh into these big

questions of state law and u.s. constitution. >> let me read that section for our viewers. i'm not a constitutional scholar, nor am i lawyer but this is pretty plainly written. quote, no person shall be a senator or representative in congress or elector of president and vice president, or hold any office, civil or litary, under the united states, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of congress, or as an officer of the united states, or as a member of any state legislature, or as a an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the constitution of the united states, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof, but congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each house remove such disability. i know you've said that you'll refer to the legal process, but

my sense is that his get out of jail again free card is perhaps this remedy of a vote of two-thirds of each house but the conduct he's engaged in and doesn't deny anymore is clearly covered by section 3 of the 14 md amendment. >> will, i think the words are clear in section 3 of the 14th amendment but there are some big question, so, for example, the 14th amendment doesn't say whether swung disqualified under it is disqualified from running for that office or seated for that office. it doesn't say who gets to decide and colorado law is silent as to how we consider someone disqualified for potential ballot access. so there are big questions, and, you know, this is an unprecedented situation. we have never had a president of the united states try to steal an american election. and i think it's important that

you share his words. he wants to say that this is election interference, no, his fake elector scheme and attempts to steal the presidency from the american people is true election interference and ultimately there's big questions around this lawsuit but make no mistake, donald trump tried to steal that election in 2020. >> let me play what one of the legal experts we've turned to help understand this issue and how this process will play out had to say specifically about your role and other seconds of state. >> i believe to a certainty that there will be secretaries of state in several of the states who will decline to place the former president on the ballot, arguing that he is unqualified by virtue of section 3 of the 14 md amendment. whether that official or those officials qualify the president,

former president, or they disqualify him, that decision will be immediately challenged in state or federal court by a person with standing to challenge it. it would certainly include the former president and, and from that moment on this will be a matter destined for the supreme court of the united states. >> do you believe -- i guess two-part question. if you disagree with any of this, please let us know, but the second part, do you believe that the couldle cole case could become this case if challenged by donald trump that ends up in the supreme court? >> well, there's several things i agree with the judge on and several things i disagree with the judge on. i don't think it's clear at this point what secretaries of state will do. i do think it's clear that we will see litigation including this lawsuit, it's possible that this case goes to the supreme

court. it's premature. we just were served the case several days ago, but i think regardless, if donald trump is a nominee, this lawsuit may appear in several iterations during the primary, if he's the nominee, the republican nominee it could appear again and if he wins the presidency, it could actually appear again. so for all of your viewers this is something, this is a big issue that may not be resolved overnight. but ultimately the courts need to weigh in and i will always follow what a court says and uphold the law and the u.s. constitution. >> can you tell us what happens next in colorado? what is the next process step? >> so, this morning, the trump camp actually or yesterday, excuse me, moved the case to federal court. i think colorado state courts are very well suited for this case, so we are looking at different legal options there, and we'll see how quickly this case moves, but to be very

clear, a big point that i think is worth making is that the american people will have a chance to save democracy in 2024. they stepped up to reject chaos in 2018, 2020, 2022, and i am so confident that they'll do that again to protect democracy and make sure that we have a country that lasts centuries to our future. >> one of the things that trump has ushered in is to place individuals like yourself into the limelight, in the public arena. and into these extraordinarily novelties, your word, legal circumstances, and i wonder how that feels for you on a personal level? >> well, i'll tell you, the most difficult issue i've grappled with during my time as secretary of state are the threats.

president trump has unleashed conspiracies. he lies. he will do anything to intimidate. but i'll tell you what, i won't be intimidated. i'm going to follow this lawsuit through to as the best way that i believe it should be followed through. i will oversee our election. no former president will ever intimidate me and that's what all americans have to do. we cannot allow the gravity of the situation to put us into despair. we have to stand up, protect our democracy, that includes litigating case, showing up with poll workers and showing up to vote next year. >> it's an extraordinary answer. it wasn't necessarily what i expected but as i said to speaker pelosi, i asked if it was an act of personal defiance after her husband was targeted and spoke to jocelyn benson about the threats against her outside her home when she was inside with her child.

i've interviewed federal judge esther salas who had someone come to her door to kill her and her son lost his life, confronting him. i know everyone in the arena who challenges trump at some level faces brutal, ugly smears and threats, and we know from the department of homeland security that right now the greatest threat to the homeland is the intersection of the kinds of things trump complains about loudly, election interference, he calls it, but his complaints about the 2020 election, there was no evidence that there was any fraud anywhere and where there were instances they were his voters, not anyone putting their finger on the scale for president joe biden and other issues he stirs up and manufactures and amplifies. i wonder whether you see a new sort of wave of public leaders, public officials like yourselves who instead of being intimidated are viewing public service in

and of itself as their act of defiance against those threats. >> absolutely. it's an act of bravery. every single day when you are at the front lines of protecting democracy, and i am so proud of secretaries of state, many of whom have stood up against threat and intimidation. in my case, two people have already been found guilty for threatening my life. all that started after the insurrection, because trump is a liar who spreads conspiracies and incites political violence. that is the truth of the matter. but, again, it's something so motivating to wake up every morning and think, you know, i'm going to do everything i can to protect american democracy, and it's so motivating to know that there are republicans and democratic election workers all across the country, some poll workers, some working in county clerk offices who wake up with that same sentiment. that's why i'm so optimistic we

will get through that troubling time for our country. >> ben rhodes, i want to bring you in on this. i wonder, as the secretary is speaking, we spend an inordinate amount of time analyzing and trying to figure out how the justified and overdue dimes of donald trump in four jurisdictions will impact his base. will they be so agitated, will they be so mad? we don't spend enough time probing this terrain the secretary is talking about, how public servants, election workers, ordinary citizen, young throw people throwing their hat in the ring to run for office are equally energized by the grave, brazen public no longer sort of coded or hidden threats to democracy that donald trump and all of his enablers represent every single day. >> yeah, nicolle, it's actually important sometimes to step back, as you just did, and realize that there's so many different threads to this story. you know, 91 charges and cases

coming on the 14th amendment and all these different pieces but this entire period we're living through is boiled down to kind of one thing, is american democracy going to come out on the other end of this or not? and we see very ugly things happening that have been normalized in a way, the kind of rhetoric of conspiracy theory and threats to the secretary and her colleagues are facing, political violence even but we also have seen a lot of people, some in the public eye, some in public service but some people, you know, more in the shadow, election workers or voters themselves who may be inclined to support a trumpian agenda but feel this has gone too far. they are the people that will get us through. whatever the ultimate verdict it will be delivered in the 2024 election one way or the other. we also know there could be other forms of accountability

including criminal accountability for donald trump but really what it's going to come down to is will we look back on this period and see that the people that stood up for democracy, that there are enough of them and they were successful and when you have courageous people like the secretary of state of colorado doing that, that they have the support that they need to do what they need to do and so that's really what this is all about. not any one of the one plot lines but the bigger story about whether or not there are going to be enough people doing the right thing through the period of our history to get to the other side, the 14th amendment was written because there had been a period where that didn't happen and had to have a civil war to reconcile what it meant to be american. let's hope that doesn't happen again and let's hope there are enough people that will do the right thing through this period. >> you and i have had multiple conversations about the 14th amendment, where are your thoughts on it now, and what is your sort of counsel to states and secretaries of states that

are now grappling with the real legal issues? >> i think that the secretary has it exactly right, which is that this has to be decided by the courts. just as much as if somebody was running for office who was 34 years old and not 35, the courts have to make a determination about what this mean, who decides it. there are actual open issues. we were talking off air about former attorney general casey weighing in on he thinks it doesn't apply. >> filing his brief in "the wall street journal" editorial place. >> which seems to be the place for certain people to make their voices heard. and so i think the secretary is right to say this has to be decided. the idea that donald trump thinks going to court is an act of insurrection is laughable. i mean, that is, you know, everyone is entitled to court. he was entitled to court to challenge the election.

he lost. you don't get to take the law into your hands so i think the secretary has it exactly right, which is to have the courts weigh in on this. i think whether it's this case or other cases that go up to the supreme court, but something will go to the supreme court because they have to resolve it. i do think it's notable that the criminal justice system, though, is stepping in to protect people like the secretary of state, like ruby freeman and shaye moss, i think there have been now 14 criminal cases at the federal level for -- to try to deter this kind of action. that is just a drop in the buck, though. >> right. >> and so i think it's really important for the criminal law to step in. with respect to the january 6th insurrection, with respect to all of the threats that are being prom mull gated and instigated by the former president and his allies because people should not be threatened and should not lose their life

or fear losing their life doing their job. >> on that note, madam secretary, we'll give you the last word. >> well, i agree with a lot of this discussion. i will say something that is really regrettable is the supreme court just made it harder to prosecute threats in this country. this is a supreme court that was afraid of protesters outside of their house and outside of the u.s. supreme court which makes it harder to have protection against folks who would try to use intimidation against election officials. so, you know, i think again we will get through this period and in time donald trump should be held accountable including in criminal courts. the criminal charges are about holding him personally accountable and agree the big question is, will democracy survive? i think that it will. americans know what's on the line. they're showing up. they will make their voices

heard and that's what really gives me hope to just continue to do the work every single day to make sure our elections are flawless. >> colorado secretary of state jena griswold, thank you for spending some of what i know is a busy time talking to us about it. we're grateful and thanks for spending over two hours with us, ben rhodes sticks around. when we come back the 25-year-old running for congress to protect what we're talking about, american democracy. he wants to be the next gen-z member of the house of representatives. he'll be our guest next. democrats led by senator elizabeth warren have a plan to turn up the heat on tuberville and those who stand idly by as he risks military readiness. later why elon musk shut down a satellite network that was helping american ally ukraine and ukrainian forces as they

sought to repel russian invaders on the battlefield. a standing new piece of reporting later in the hour. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ' ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee. ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis.

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with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait —find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. amid lies told by maga republicans about the existence of fraud in the 2020 election, texas has become a hotbed of attacks on the right to vote and of our democracy. just last month a court found a texas law targeting mail-in ballot and applications violated the 1964 civil ryes act. one candidate, isaiah martin is

looking to take on specifically these anti-democratic efforts in texas head-on running for the seat of the member of congress he used to intern for, sheila jackson lee. take a look. >> we used to take the word democracy for granted. you see, when i grew up, my parents used to take me to vote with them every single time there was an election. you would have thought in all of these years that voting would have gotten easier, not harder. but unfortunately i'm standing right here at ground zero of voter suppression. i don't want you to think for a second that this is just a texas thing, because what we're seeing right here in texas is just a snapshot of what's going on all across the nation when extremists with no vision try to hold on to power with division. >> if elected he would be the second gen-z member of congress, for the 18th district, isaiah

joins us right now. >> thank you so much for having me. >> i used to work on campaigns and watched your ad and it is a fantastic message, and it is a fantastic story. i used to go -- i think most people end up in these lines of work used to go with their parents to vote. take me with you. even magnificent when we were too young to participate. a simple snapshot of how we're moving backward. how did you seize on that message and what kind of feedback are you getting? >> i mean, it's been such a tremendous couple of hours and days, i mean, because our message for democracy is something we're seeing specifically right here in houston, you know, texas is ground zero for voter suppression. we've seen governor abbott and his allies sign pieces of legislation that have taken polling places away from line cooks who work the night shift and see seniors can't vote because they're seizing mail-in ballot access and have seen folks time and time again do

everything they can to get rid of polling places at college campuses so people are excited, fired up over the work we're doing to fight for democracy because one thing is for sure that democracy is only guaranteed if we fight for it. >> you know, some of the candidates that were the most successful seized on this message in 2022, i'm thinking of now governor of pennsylvania, josh shapiro. his campaign was about freedom and what democracy is or isn't. are you looking toward candidates and campaigns like that to make decisions about your candidacy? >> absolutely. i mean, what we're fighting for right now is just making sure that we can have voting rights across this country. i mean, because these attacks are not just going to stop in texas. i want to make sure everyone understands that. this will be going on all across the country 23 we do not seize this opportunity right now as our moment to stand up for democracy. you know, governor shapiro has been a tremendous fighter in pennsylvania.

we've seen members of congress, i know leader jeffries has been working hard to make sure we can have a federal voting rights protections so that's the kind of model i look up to and what i want to make sure we can continue into the future. >> i always feel 700 years old when i start a question this way but i'll do it anyway. if people in your generation voted just this much more, you would be -- you would have the ability to sway so many race, not just yours but races all over the country. what can you educate the rest of us to in terms of the biggest impediment for participating and voting regularly and not just presidential olympic years but midterm election years, as well? >> to be honest with you, we really just have to make sure we're reaching people everywhere. we cannot take any, you know, person or any demographic for granted. we have to be organizing all year round. one of the greatest things about what i plan on doing making sure

we're active even when we're not necessarily on the ballot. we have to make sure that we're working to tell people what democrats are doing all across the country to move people forward. we have to make sure that we're knocking on door, we have to make sure we're sending mailers. we have to be organized and engaged all year round to let people know and understand that democrats are best posed to move us into the future and bring a better life for everybody. >> isaiah, i will keep a close eye on all politics in texas so we'll keep a close eye on your campaign so please come back and keep us posted any time you'd like. thanks for spending time with us. >> absolutely. and if anyone wants to learn more about the campaign go to isaiahmartin.org and we will be ready to go. >> when we come back how democrats are planning to get tough, tougher on alabama republican senator tommy tuberville who has dug in on his one-man crusade on the military, specifically against the pentagon's abortion health

policy that taught military leaders say is doing grave harm to our national security right now. we'll have that conversation next. (♪ ♪) the walking tree is said to change its entire location in pursuit of sunlight (♪ ♪) where could reinvention take your business? accenture. let there be change.

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now in month nine of tuberville's blockade of military promotions with more than 300 promotions currently on hold and that could reach over 600 by the end of this year. now punch bowl news is reporting

democratic senator elizabeth warren has had enough and urging her party to turn up the heat. they report this today, during a closed door democratic lump on wednesday, the progressive urged her party's leadership to get more aggressive in pushing back on tuberville and republican leaders according to two people who witnessed the exchange. her comments were mostly directed at senate majority leader chuck schumer, sources said. senator elizabeth warren's efforts come as the pentagon is forcefully stepping up their attacks on tuberville's attacks with a media blitz. here's carlos del toro earlier this week with his blistering rebuke of senator tuberville. >> for someone born in this country i never would have imagined one of our own senators would be aiding and abetting communists and other autocratic regimes around the world. this is having a real negative impact and will continue to on our combat readiness. that's what the american people truly need to understand. >> joining me once again for this conversation founder of the

iraq and afghanistan veterans of america host of independent americans podcast is back and ben rhodes with us, as well. good but so late. i mean good for senator warren barret with you is schumer? injury -- >> he does something more radical, reckless and damaging to our military just about every week and now it's been nine months. this is why they call him soft. why haven't he run him out of the senate? >> in fairness he is a republican -- >> republicans too but i expect that from them but expect the opposition party to do more than whine and cry. on october 1st we won't have a confirmed chairman of the joint chiefs of staffs. milley will retire and stakes continue to go up and damages

our national security and enemies are celebrating. putin loves this, kim jong-un loves this. all our enemies love this but i think it's time to take the gloves off. letting the service chiefs and letting the secretary of the navy go is an exam of the biden administration taking their gloves off but they've got to crank it up higher. >> ben, why not say we'll remove every military asset and base from the state of alabama? >> yeah, nicolle, there are a couple of thick that is come to mind. first of all, imagine if this was on the other foot. >> oh, that's all i can imagine, ben rhodes. that's all -- let's just stop right there. let's stop right there. if the democrats were -- first of all, it's a total tectonic shift that the democrats are the only party that stand up for the united states military, full stop. republicans have been taking sideswipes and now frontal punches to the jaw at the united states military and its leadership for years and should pay -- republicans should pay a price at the ballot box. one of the last revered

institutions in the country is the men and women of the military, full stop. that's political malpractice if that doesn't happen in the next presidential election. but, two, if the democrats are doing anything that current military officials said damaged combat readiness, that would be all that you heard about and i take paul's point that this is the white house taking the gloves off but there should be a lot more heat on the republicans. >> yeah, i mean, i think you would be using every single messaging tool possibly available to you to highlight what this is doing to the military. it's harming readiness and individuals and their pay, their advancement and reward for lifetimes of service. you should be using every megaphone you have to highlight this issue. it's not a distraction of anything. this is the problem. you have an extremist party that is seeking to be a governing party in the republican party. i, also, nicolle, there should

not be senate rules to allow somebody to do it. the republicans have abused senate rules from the filibuster to senate holes to mucking around in confirmations and doing this in a building way and increasingly into the national security space for a long time now. and if ever there were an advertisement for getting rid of a filibuster it's this and people may want to avoid that issue because they don't have the 51 votes to get this done at this point but i'd make another run if i was elizabeth warren. this is highlighting why outdated rules, look, the whole reason you had some of these rules in place was so that racist senators from alabama in the past could stand up and block civil rights legislation. the tommy tubervilles of a few general rakes ago were the people that loved those rules and now he's using them to harm the u.s. military because of -- he doesn't want women to have reproductive health care. i mean, this is insane and this should be a much bigger focal point in american politics right now. >> let me follow up with you. i'm glad you brute us to the

core issue. in terms of reverence for the military and support for health care access for active duty men and women stateside have the same access to reproductive health care they would have if they were stationed abroad. that's what this is about. so on the policy that undergirds it and on the conduct that is, again, damaging combat readiness, that's what the military says tommy tuberville is doing, it's just a lights out, you vast majority of republicans who agree with the democrats on these issues. what would you advise them to do and what should the white house do? have a working group on this? should they engage -- what would you actually do tactically if you were still at the white house? >> if i was at the white house, first of all i'd tactically have a message component every single day that some messenger in the u.s. government is out there hammering this every single day, right? i would be leaning into the core underlying argument we can't ask women to serve the country and

put their lives in harm's way and say, oh, if you get sent to a state that has an abortion ban, i'm sorry, the republicans want to deny you health care. i'd be drawing the linkage to the fact that the republican party in the form of tommer tuberville has decided to put the culture war ahead of the u.s. military and its readiness and it's dangerous and the last thing i would do is i would be sitting done with the senate leadership and looking at the rules around confirmations generally going forward. because this -- in the obama years they were holding up all kinds of important appointees and didn't have an ambassador to russia for months leading into the first annexation of crimea and invasion of ukraine because it was hostage to some strange republican priority. the white house has to take that seriously and look at it, look, even if you're not necessarily getting everything you need to get done you have so start the conversation if the window opens again you're ready to move.

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able russia in its fight with ukraine. in a new excerpt from walter isaacson's upcoming biography of him, he reveals musk denied access to his starlink internet service operated by spacex in order to prevent a ukrainian drone attack on a russian navy fleet last year in crimea. from that book excerpt, quote, throughout the evening and into the night, musk personally took charge of the situation allowing the use of starlink for the attack, he concluded, could be a disaster for the world so secretly told his engineers to turn off coverage within 100 kilometers of the crimean coast. as a result when the ukrainian drone subs got near the russian fleet in sebastopol they lost connectivity and washed ashore harmlessly. quote, if the ukrainian attacks had succeeded in sinking the russian fleet it would have been a like a minnie pearl harbor musk says.

we do not want to be a part of that. back with ben and paul. i mean, minnie pearl harbor against russia is what he prevented the ukrainians were carrying out. how do you feel about it. >> musk is no patriot. he's made that clear over the last few years. his alos angeless are not with the united states, are not with nato and i think this is the manifestation of the worst of what can happen when you continue to privatize military operations. if he decides to shut the lights off, he can do it. he has a defense contract with the pentagon to provide starlink and just decided that in this operation he's going to shut the lights off. 9/11 is on monday. what if we were reliant upon elon musk after 9/11 and decided he didn't want to escalate against bin laden and al qaeda and cripple a major weapon system or satellites or still has control over teslas. the amount of mayhem he can inflict on our country that undermines national security should outrage and concern

everyone. it's the highest priority. all about national security and i don't think it gets nearly enough attention. >> ben rhodes. >> well, a couple things stand out to me about this. first of all, you know, there were reports about elon musk having conversations with senior russian officials, maybe even up to president putin and he seems to have indicated musk that the lesson he took from that russia might use nuclear weapons in response to this drone attack. i mean, first of all, that's a strange judgment for him to be making, you know. like it seems like the russians kind of got to him. in a way, by the way, that the united states -- the people who are paid to make these kind of decisions in our government, they've made a lot of decisions about escalation risks that they're willing to live with and they don't want to get into a nuclear escalation with russia and that's joe biden's stated position so people able to evaluate russian threats did not come to the same conclusion and provided weapon systems to

ukraine that the russians had warned about in the past would cross certain lines for them. the second point i want to echo is that it highlights elon musk is almost functioning like a government here. he's functioning as -- in some ways a party to this conflict making decisions that are going to have, you know, real ramifications for the outcome of that. that's something the government will have to look at. the outsourcing of certain functions, the privatization of certain functions and the concentrated nature of power that accrued in the hands of elon musk, that's worrying to me and i think they have to look at where do those controls make for these types of decisions? whatever you think of elon musk and his politics, the amount of influence that he's amassed through spacex, through twitter or x or whatever we call it now, this is not how i think, you know, people envisioned national security decisions being made and decisions about objective reality being made by one guy who may have mercurial and

eccentric views. we have to figure out a way to put it back in the hands of democratic chosen decision makers. >> and the consequence of the decision was to aid and abet russia on the battlefield literally and actually. the on his platform is some seemingly flimsy defense of the amendment. you are no friend of the first amendment here. >> our enemies are celebrated, there are so many different directions that are attacking the national security. you've got elon musk messing around with starling. tommy turberville blacking every nomination, our military

is in the crosshairs, our democracy is under attack by the department of defense, our national security is under at attack every day from all sides in almost every week there's a new episode that underscores how severe the stakes are, 9/11 is monday. we have to learn the lessons of 9/11 and ink about what we would do if another 9/11 happen. imagine this unfolding if it happened again on monday. i don't think enough of our leaders and countries thinking about that. >> thank you both so much for spending time with us. big breaking news from fulton county. we will tell you about it after a short break, stay with us. ah.

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max challenge. ♪ ♪ breaking news to tell you about, a federal judge has just ruled that former white house chief of staff mark meadows cannot move his case to federal court. let me read from the first place , the order addresses a relatively narrow question. having considered the arguments and evidence the court concludes meadows has not met his burden. the court declined to assume jurisdiction over the state criminal prosecution of meadows. >> so what this means is, although meadows can appeal

this to above the district judge to a court of appeals, this is a 49 page decision obviously you and i are still frantically reading it. but if this stays this means the case will be tried in state court not federal court. for people like you and me that do intelligent work, there are no pardons, there are cameras in georgia, no cameras federally. the jury pool is different as well and honestly the judge will be a state court judge. and quickly, looking at this, a couple of things the judge is careful to say that other people who are seeking to remove, he has not made decisions them. he will decide those on those papers but obviously, everyone will be reading this for the tea leaves, probably more than tea leaves.

the other thing that i find interesting is the judge is polite in the way he phrases it, but he clearly did not credit mark meadows testimony. one of the phrases that stood out to me is he says there are certain things that he credits and then he says however, the court gives less weight to his assertion which is a very polite way of saying, he doesn't buy it. and he points out that mark meadows was not able to when he took the stand, to delineate what was his role of chief of staff which could mean he could be removed, it was part of his duties in his office of chief of staff, and what he was doing was part of the campaign. >> some of that, i would assume in the point in the hearing where willis and her team were able to pull out any matter what email where he was -- >> absolutely, and that's where

mark meadows is a part of the lie saying this is an alternative slate of electors. he actually then, confessed and said this was part of the campaign. and said -- >> females produced by willis and her team. >> a lot of people have contended, of the superior resume and caliber of meadows attorney, this becomes his first known legal blow? >> that is true. it is, i think, there's no question he has a real lawyer, he is well respected, well known, that differentiates him to some extent with many of the other counsel who i will not name. he took a gamble by putting him on the stand and thinking that his testimony would be compelling enough to satisfy his burden. i think that there's a big

downside and what just happened, because i think he made himself unusable as a potential witness, so one of the things when you are a defense lawyer is you think about, do i have an option of cooperating with the government, if things really go bad? he took the stand and said things that i think would be very hard for a state or federal prosecutor to live with. >> let me read this, this is from the judge, quote, the court finds that the color of the office of the white house chief of staff did not include working with or working for the trump campaign. except for coordinating the president schedule, traveling to campaign events, best consistent with his testimony in the federal statutes and women, engaging in political activities exceeds the outer limits, so basically, i mean what meadows did, i say this as somebody who worked on a reelection staff, i violated

the campaign hatch act and that's my argument for being removed from court. and he said violations of the hatch act, you should have been doing that anyway. >> hear something remarkable, this is a chief of staff to the leader of the free world, under oath, in federal court and this is what the federal court says. when questioned about the scope of his authority, meadows was unable to explain the limits of his authority other then he couldn't stump for the president. i mean, that is just a remarkable statement for somebody who is chief of staff and had a long political career before that. >> as a member of congress. our thanks to all of you for letting us into your homes for these extraordinary times and being with ari melber who's the person perfect rs