edition of alex what reports, i hope to see all of you again at noon eastern. meanwhile, coverage continues right now. >> everyone, we've got a lot going on this afternoon, it's good to see you. we are following two breaking news stories right now, a news conference expected to start any moment in pennsylvania, involving that dangerous fugitive who has been on the loose, and eluded police for 11 days now, it has been a day of developments there, the search for new sightings, a look for the fugitive, a stolen van. it appears they're walking to the podium, now as soon as that gets up and going, we'll be listening and. let's listen in as we get new information here. >> good afternoon.

i'm lieutenant -- deputy commissioner of operations of the kansas state police. joining me today is just a joke tierney, that brian, davis salsa, rob clark from the u.s. marshals office, and [inaudible] andrew bergen, u.s. border secure, and -- chester county emergency management. there has been a significant number of developments in this investigation over the past 24 hours, earlier this morning, at approximately 12:30 a.m., the espy was made aware of a sighting of -- and the east pikeland area in the western county.

sometime during the evening of september 9th, -- stole a ford transit van from an area [inaudible] the keys have been left in the van, and they had not noticed [inaudible] the keys have been left in the van, and the theft was not noticed until tsp canvassed the area, looking for a possible stolen vehicle after a report of him in the east area. it was reported that he used the vanna trouble to that area. at 9:52 pm, he attempted to contact an individual that he had known and worked with several years prior. he spoke with the individual video doorbell, at that residents, and in part about meeting with that individual. the individual was at dinner

with his family, and did not respond to meet him. he left the residents, the homeowner eventually returned to, and reviewed his doorbell reporting, and call local police. he is pvc to call about the sighting, and the next, at 12:30 in the morning on september champ 2023. this was our first indication that he had been able to travel from longwood gardens. videos already been provided to the media. some of those photos are available you will notice that cavalcante is clean shaven and is wearing a clean t-shirt. there was another site in the phoenixville area and what she appeared at a residence of another work associate at 10:07 pm. that associate was not home, but a female resident observed

cavalcante and called her friend. that friend responded to the residents and eventually placed the call to local police. police investigated, and then notified ccp. during that investigation, there was an indication of a white yokohl valley, being used by cavalcante. an updated photo of cavalcante was provided to state and local law enforcement at 2:30 pm. using the description provided, at 5:20 i.m., investigators identified a vehicle from this area, which fit the description of their vehicle operated by cavalcante. upon contact in the field corner, the owner realize that their vehicle had been stolen. further investigation revealed that he said fit left in the vehicle. law enforcement nationwide was immediately notified of the theft, and an alert was provided to state and local law enforcement at 5:37. after an extensive search, the vehicle was discovered in banded in a field behind a barn

in east township at 10:40 a.m.. investigators have been searching the area around that location since that time. we are obviously very concerned that cavalcante has, or will attempt, to steal another vehicle to facilitate his escape. as a reminder, we asked for the public's help by familiarizing themself with the updated photographs and description of cavalcante. to check security cameras they have, and to call us immediately if they believe they may have seen him. again, we ask residents to please secure homes, buildings, and vehicles. this most recent incidents is a reminder that he will take advantage of any opportunity to obtain items he needs, it is also imperative that anyone with information about cavalcante contact us immediately so we can act on it in a timely manner. i have told you from the start of this manhunt that we were conducting a multi faceted

investigation, which include strong of estimated been technological components. those aspects become even more important now, we will aggressively continue this investigation with our federal, state, county, and local partners until we successfully brain cavalcante back into custody. cavalcante it's considered dangerous, and there was a reward of up to $20,000 offered for information related to his capture. anyone with information is asked to call or tip line at 717, five 6 to 2, 987, 717562, two, 987. i know this is an extremely stressful time for the community, i assure you that we are doing everything possible to bring this to a successful resolution as quickly as possible. i also want to make mention that there is a special thank you to, a longwood gardens. i will tell you that for sometime, the past several days,

we have had to essentially take over that property, and they have been very, very accommodating. i appreciate that. you know, not everyone, not every business or organization would be as accommodating. i think them. with that, i will be happy, as what the others here, to take any questions you may have. >> he had 400 officers within this perimeter, and yet he somehow slipped through this perimeter. how do you explain that? >> what i would tell you is that, as i said from the beginning, there are a number of challenges in any investigation. no perimeter is 100% secure ever. we did a very good job, and i will tell, you i applaud the men and women who were out there, standing in some very difficult conditions, and trying to secure that perimeter. i'm not going to make an excuse to, you i wish it had not happened. unfortunately, there are a lot

of circumstances, there are a lot of issues associated with that property. tunnels, very large drainage ditches, things that could not be secured. you couple that with whether, aviation being down for a night, there are a number of reasons. again, no excuses. we took on the responsibility, we gave it a very good effort, we gave it an exceptionally good effort, and i applaud the men and women who have done such a good job. >> there were underground tunnels -- >> there are underground tunnels there. >> along the gardens, with that aspect -- >> they did help us with blueprints, and as a matter of fact, there was additional construction that also has other drainage areas that are under construction, those cannot be secured, it's really that simple,. you do the best you can with any given circumstance, it's no different when it's a challenging search, the challenges with every one of them. we do the best that we can, our

people did a great job, and i applaud them. i wish that it had not, that he had not been able to slip through there. but that does happen sometimes, and that's why we don't simply rest on our laurels and say, okay, we're going to take one approach. i will tell, you to give you some idea, i brought you all in here on friday, and show you the scope of this. i nearly double the planning for 7:00 tomorrow morning. our plan have been close to 600 members of law enforcement to do one massive sweep of that entire property, there is a huge amount of planning that goes into that, and working around whether and some of those other things, so it is not for a lock of trying that this occurred. will fall back, as we do with any other investigation, when something doesn't go our way, we fall back to something else, and the end, i am confident that we will capture him, and we will bring him back into the criminal justice system.

>> we're hearing that his sister was arrested. >> currently, we're up in the northern part of the county. i do not have a perimeter secured up there. we're searching an area around where we recovered the ban. there are a number of other, there are a number of other pieces of information that are a play that don't require perimeter, and are the focus of our efforts at this point. >> what about the family's involvement at this point. they were assisting you earlier, but we're now getting -- for deportation. >> that is accurate. >> do you believe the family is cooperating? is he getting any assistance from this family members, or anyone else in his community? >> as always, i'm not going to comment on what assistance he may or may not be receiving, but we take steps to try to minimize, or eliminate that assistance, and that's exactly what we've done. >> was the point of the search right now?

>> the physical search right now is near that recovery of that ban. again, there are a number of other things in play that don't require that physical presence up there, and those are all equally, or even more important at this point. >> do you still think he's in pennsylvania, in chester county, are those special forces coming in the last few hours, and anything you can tell us about the family right now. >> i do believe he still in pennsylvania. i can tell you that the victim's family remains under protection, and we assure them that they will be fully protected through all of this. i'm sorry, what was the other for your question? >> is their support coming in from out of states. >> yes, as always, we are just. you know, i just mentioned the planning that obviously i couldn't disclose you at that time. the planning that was going into tomorrow's efforts, we were bringing and even more resources. what we're doing now is shifting. again, based on the nature of how icy the investigation playing out going forward, all of our partners here are doing

an amazing job of shifting, and bringing the resources we need. yes, sir. >> can you give us the location of where that ban is located just to make sure that we have it. also, this video, are these images, what has the person -- to what he's saying to the ring camera, what's he's asking the courts? is he trying to get support? >> so the first part of your question, east nashville township and chester county. the second part, i'm not going to be specific, but yes, he is absolutely given a general characterization, he is absolutely looking for support. he needs that support. he doesn't have it. >> yes, ma'am. >> how did he get to the gardens. no one saw him. there were police cars the last two days. how did he get there? >> well, ma'am, first of all, you have darkness, you have a variety of weather conditions, and you've got some fairly

rugged terrain. i mentioned, drainage, ditches, underground tunnels, all those kinds of things. there are a lot of factors. until i capture, where we capture him, and i or others have an opportunity to interview, and if he would share, that i guess that will now. until then, i don't know how he got over there. i wish i did. i can speculate on a couple of possibilities, but i can tell you that again, no perimeter is 100% secure. we do the best we can most times, were able to secure it adequately. >> brock the doorbell counts rat, they were -- >> these four from, yes, so when i say, it was someone he had worked with several years ago. i'm not suggesting that they have a relationship with him now. someone he has worked. what he sought out their assistance. >> well location do you -- do you have any videos, or any

-- >> i don't have any substantive proof right now that he has a weapon, but clearly he has been and residences, businesses, and and vehicles, at least one, that i can't say what may or may not have been in any of those locations that he had access to. >> how much does this cost so far? >> i gotta tell, you i am not tracking the cost right now. we are doing what it takes to successfully run this investigation, in terms of what we need, i will tell you that our partners have been amazing. anything that i've asked for, anything that they have suggested, because there's a lot of expertise standing behind me, and in the room over here anything that has been reasonably suggested by any of, ask each of us steps up and a communist with those resources. [inaudible question] >> again,

i'm not gonna go into a lot of detail, but i suggest that there's a number of investigative and technological pieces that can be brought their. that is where this shifts. until such time, we are prepared to try and contain and capture this individual. -- just one minute, sir. >> are you aware of any vigilante site that people are -- citizen cops out there -- >> yes, i have heard that that is the case. >> i just want to know what the professionals are doing, are they helping in any way, or not at all? >> they're not helping us at all. in fact, they become and hindrance, again. some of the technology, the resources, have to be diverted at times, when they insert themselves into a scene. it's not helpful. i wish they wouldn't do it. i asked them they not. i can't stop them in some cases

from doing it. >> are you prepared to characterize this as a nationwide manhunt? have access to a vehicle that potentially leave the state. >> we have always looked at the potential that it could be a nationwide man hunt. the resources that are standing here with me already make it a nationwide manhunt. the information is being shared as appropriate across the country. this morning, before, before we even had a full picture, the information we had was being shared with appropriate law enforcement all across the country. so we keep our law enforcement partners apprized of the progress. and or the setbacks for that matter. and, you know, we work with them as necessary. so, certainly, going forward, any information that we think is appropriate or could even potentially be utilized by partners will be shared. and the agencies represented here are in a position to do

just that. >> can you communicate some intel about how to -- do you think that they underestimated how resilient, resourceful he is? he's pretty impressive so far, how he's been able to get around. >> i don't think anyone underestimated that. everyone knows that, you know, he is somebody who comes from a background where he has endured some hardship. and there's no doubt he is willing to endure some hardship now. his choice is to go to prison for the rest of his life. he chooses not to do that. unfortunately, that is not what's going to prevail in the long run. and so, he is very determined. we are even more determined he will be held to justice. and we're gonna bring him back into custody. >> another question, do we know where he got the hoodie and their ways are -- >> the hoodie was at the dairy farm. i don't know about the razor.

>> and the second question -- anyone who helped him as he was trying to escape? the gentleman that he tried to reach out to, is he one of those people? >> i am aware of that information and i do not want to comment any further on that right now. >> [inaudible question] -- when he was convicted, and he might have tried to contact some people. is there any idea if he hatched this plan to escape on a certain day? but is there any thought that he started this whole process on the day of -- [inaudible question] and i think out of his defense attorney, et cetera? >> i don't know if that is the specific date. do i think he took advantage of an opportunity that presented itself and other inmates told

him about from a different inmate escaping that way, yes, i think he took advantage of that opportunity. but he has any number of opportunities from the time he's convicted or even prior to, to have contact to his attorney, family members, and so forth. and so, at any point along the way, the plot could be hatched or continued as it goes on. at this point, i'm not in a position to say any specific dates. >> what's your message to those in the community who may be trying to assist him with this? >> they would be prosecuted vigorously if we can prove that they assisted him. and the types of charges depends on the type of assistance. we have a district attorney here, and i don't want to speak for her. but i'm certain that she is well prepared to prosecute anyone who assists in any way. >> sir, do we know anything about where in chester county, prior to the murder in 2021,

and also, secret service called in at all -- >> first, we do have a lot of information on his background. all of that factors to the overall investigation. secret service with the one of many federal partners that have access to information and certainly anything that might pertain, not anybody who lives here, but visits, so forth. they will have to be -- >> and do you have any idea? >> i'm not going to go into this background, but we will have to look into that. >> do you have an idea where he is right now? >> if i knew where he was right now, we will go catch him and then bring him back in. what i'm telling you is that i'm confident that we will identify where he is. he got out. we found the vehicle. we found where he abandoned it fairly quickly. i am confident that we will continue aggressively proceeding on this search and this investigation.

and we will eventually capture him. i'm not prepared to say if that will be today or tomorrow. i don't know. i hope sooner rather than later. >> you have the resources out right now to find this man? >> absolutely -- >> in that area or -- >> we are still searching. we will do a thorough search and try to either capture him or eliminate that threat. >> what did you find inside the van? and why do you believe he may have -- >> i don't have a complete accounting of everything that was in the van yet, quite frankly, i have been busy with a number of other things. but those are talented people that are working on this, some of the folks have been directly involved in those operations. what i would tell you is that, you know, we take all of that information and factor that in as we go forward. i would also tell you that one of the reasons that i believe he jumped that vehicle was a lack of fuel. >> you have any information if

there were any other vehicles in that area -- >> i do not have a report of a stolen vehicle. i anticipate that we will. >> i was so confident that there would be more searches on the ground -- >> we are adjusting the numbers as we speak. again, it's going to be determined by what the conditions require, that there is no point in having resources stand around. adversely, i don't want to be in a position where i wish i had them but they weren't there -- >> how is he able to breach that perimeter -- can you tell where he was able to slip through? >> i have not been able to conclusive conclusively determined that. i have my suspicions where i believe that happened. but, no -- no, because i don't know conclusively. but, again, i knew where the

weaknesses were, and i think perhaps one of those weaknesses came into play here. >> at what point does another agency take over if he crosses state lines? >> at that point, we certainly have all the federal partners here right now. the u.s. marshals really takes the lead anytime you start crossing state lines. and they are here, a huge partner in all of this. we work hand in hand, not only when we are doing these kinds of investigations, we have people assigned to their offices who are deputized right along with their deputy marshals. and we work with them every day of the year. so, this will be seamless if it ever does transition across the state line. right now, there is no indication that that is the case. but if it does, it won't change the investigation much at all. it simply, it will also be simply transitioned to another police state agency or whoever the lead investigative entity in that state. >> what's what's your message to the community? they have been watching you

chase this guy now, a lot of scrutiny is coming towards your agency that you haven't scrutinized this perimeter -- >> i don't know, people are losing faith. what i tell you, people have realized we have given this 100% effort. and as i said earlier, i am proud of the effort that our people have put forth. i take responsibility for it. i lead this effort with them and i'm proud to do it. i appreciate the support we've gotten from the community. i think the community recognizes that and any kind of a major operation like this, there are simply times things don't go the way you planned. that happens in investigations. it happens in manhunts. it happens in all kinds of things. i have a long career in law enforcement, we really do things happen exactly as i plan. that's why if you are smart, you are planning contingencies and you are ready to adapt to whatever happens. this is a minor setback. we will get him. it's a matter of time. >> [inaudible question] >> as was alluded to earlier, there are some immigration issues.

beyond that, i cannot comment. >> have you interviewed or gotten in touch from the people that helped him escape? >> as i said earlier, i am aware of that information. but i'm not prepared to discuss what actions we have taken with regard to -- >> [inaudible question] -- >> no, i don't have any information. >> [inaudible question] -- >> just one second. >> [inaudible question] -- is there any addition add on to it? >> he can be charged. there can be an addition put on. i can tell you there's already a commitment that he will go directly to a state correctional facility when he is captured. and we will work through the rest of what occurs at that point, depending on the circumstances. i'm sorry, i'm sorry -- >> did anybody see him driving in that van?

could it have been someone else? [inaudible question] -- >> i'm confident it was hit in the van. >> can you establish a perimeter now -- >> as i said earlier -- no, as i said earlier, the large perimeter is not the answer in every single investigation or every time, or at every point in an investigation. and so, we established a small temporary perimeter. we are still holding in that area. while we finish that search, if it's not successful, there's no reason to hold that perimeter. i mentioned to you that there was a number of delays in the reporting of this to us. so, you know, we would look to -- [inaudible] there may be a need for another significant for a matter like we had here. and it's so, we will absolutely do that. and we will absolutely do our best to capture him at that time.

>> do you know if he has any form of communication, cell phone, or -- ? >> i don't offer any opinion on that right now. >> [inaudible question] -- >> you know, i've said before, there are varying degrees of confidence. i think it's fair to say easily -- >> sir, so many people were at the burning man festival yesterday and today -- law enforcement coming in, in this region, for the people that live -- can you give us any insight where he was hiding, specifically overnight, with any evidence, anywhere he might slept? >> no, there's really not anything i can disclose now. w. >> if he is gone west about 11 miles --

where do you think he is going, if he is going west? >> i think he's looking for assistance and i think he has a reason to do with that. >> where do you think is his next stop? >> i'm not gonna go any further on that, but i think that's a strong motivator for someone if looking for an assistant. >> there were people who said they saw a white van -- >> we have investigated that. i think that is the church that you are talking about right there. there was an incident -- >> [inaudible question] [inaudible question] >> no, no. >> [inaudible question] -- >> i'm not gonna talk about where we have assets at this point. but i think it's very reasonable to think that law

enforcement assets, we were giving a number of people to sign this, we think law enforcement efforts anywhere appropriate to do so. >> any specific challenges law enforcement is facing, potential access to the -- >> certainly, he is a very determined individual. and so, one of the challenges that we face is if people don't heed our advice, and as we had here if vehicle on locked with keys in it, that makes our job more difficult, and it makes it much easier for him to succeed in various aspects of his escape efforts. so, you know, i go back, do we want to make this as difficult as possible for him? so, we asked for cooperation in trying to do that. [inaudible] >> are you shortening the perimeter at that time at all? >> we can strengthen it as we bring it in. it wasn't a matter of being outside of the perimeter. he was in there. we had sightings of him.

it's simply a matter of, you can't guarantee 100% of the time that you can contain somebody with a perimeter of that size even. >> an audio of this interaction -- if you are not releasing it. >> not at this time, no. i don't know, that is to be determined as we go forward. what we want to do is let the public know, really, the important thing here was to let the public know where his appearance is right now. we took some of the best stills out of that video. the rest of it is not necessarily important. this is what matters. >> why can't you be fully transparent about everything -- >> i think we have been exceptionally transparent through this investigation. at some point, perhaps, i will release the video. this has been a fluid investigation. most of the people in here probably haven't slept an hour in the last 24 hours. and so, my focus isn't on how can i maximize the content that i can push out. it is how do i maximize the

content that is necessary to effectively move this investigation forward. and that's what we are trying to do. we will make decisions based on the video. there's nothing to hide in the video. it just takes more effort and things away from the other investigative steps that we are taking. so for right now, we hurried up and got some stills ready so we could release those. >> is there any cartel, human trafficking, any inclination if he is connected to someone. or is he a solo individual? >> we've gotten reports of gang affiliation in the past, but right now, nothing -- >> we have never discounted that, not just mexico, we never discounted any international escape effort shouldn't be considered. those are always things that have been taken into account right from the very start, again, when i talk about having contingency planning, we are trying to make sure that that can't happen. >> is it safe to say that you

don't know where he is right now? >> do i know specific spot where he is right now? no. do i think generally i know where he is? probably, but not specifically enough that i could say let's put a hard perimeter on that right now. >> that general area is -- >> yes. >> when did he -- [inaudible question] -- >> that's not a decision that i have any import or anything else about. i could just tell you that, those decisions were made by judges and others in the judicial system. >> [inaudible question] -- the order to shoot on sight from -- >> i still left that order, at

least what's authorized, if he is not actively surrendering. >> the agencies that are under the department of justice -- >> they have their own use of force rules. >> what are they in the situation? >> i would let them speak themselves about that. >> [inaudible question] -- >> i really can't offer an opinion on that. >> have authorities been in touch with them -- >> we have relied on our partners in local government and county government levels through the emergency management folks. we are trying to do our very best as appropriate to get information out each of those communities. certainly, if we thought there was a specific threat in the amish community, we would directly focus our efforts there. but we are trying to keep everyone as informed as is reasonable. >> how are you doing throughout -- >> morale is good.

people have heard me say this in the command post since the very beginning. i've done this many, many times. not always to this size and extent, but we've done these so many times. it's a rollercoaster. there are ups and downs. there always are. and all of a sudden, it will be resolved. and the important thing is, hopefully, we don't get anyone in the community hurt. and we don't get any of our people hurt. and we bring this to a successful conclusion. it will happen. >> one more point, are you thinking about the -- heat clearly it was inside working. >> the family was not inside working. they were sleeping, as it was overnight. >> okay, so they did not notice their van was missing until the next day? >> in the early morning hours. okay. all right, again, i thank you all. we will let you know as more

developments occur and we will schedule press briefings as necessary and regularly in the interest of transparency. so, okay, thank you all. ank you all. >> all right, we were taking a listen to the press conference out of unionville, pennsylvania there. lieutenant colonel giving us an update on trying to find and capture cavalcante. we are 11 days in, folks, that press conference lasting about 34 minutes or so. lieutenant colonel being very transparent about where they are right now. cavalcante, i want to remind folks, escaped from prison 11 days ago now on august 31st. they had a cordoned off the perimeter in which they felt as if the convict, the escaped convict, had been. and there was 400 officers, law enforcement folks on hand to try and capture him. as a lieutenant colonel took us

through why it is he was able to escape that perimeter, they don't necessarily know. although he did contend that there are underground tunnels, there are areas, obviously, in the dark of night as well in which this individual may have worry well been escape that can find perimeter which they had corn condoned off. the new developments overnight, really, what we are learning from this press conference is that cavalcante was able to steal a vehicle, a white van as we were told, because the keys were left in the van from a farm. and the individual, they did not even know their van was stolen until informed by law enforcement. that van was subsequently found. and they are now searching the area around which the van was found. he's also lived at two separate residences where folks that he worked with, people that he knew, he never made contact

with those individuals. and as you can see here, the surveillance footage, this surveillance footage taking taken from a ring camera. he was speaking to them through this ring camera. they were then informed by this contact from these individuals. he is now clean shaven, as you can see. he was not clean shaven when he escaped from prison 11 days ago, wearing what looks to be that green hoodie. and, again, this is now what we are being told from that press conference, nationwide search, despite the fact that the pennsylvania police department is still very much in charge. it's now a nationwide search because the escape that perimeter. and they don't necessarily know where he is. of course, they're focusing on where that van was found earlier this morning around 10 am or so. but nonetheless, they don't actually know he is still within that perimeter. and now, there's also the fear and the worry that he could get hold another vehicle and make his way further beyond the borders of pennsylvania. and then what happens?

if we can, i want to bring in former fbi supervisor, and member of the hostage rescue team, to talk more about this. rob, so, i'm sure you're taking a listen to the press conference which i was. lieutenant colonel being very transparent about what's going on there and kind of giving us updates as to what we have kind of learned over the last 12 hours or so. it seems to me, first and foremost, is the question of how it was? this now escaped convict could have eluded authorities, a, for so long. now we are into 11 days. and gotten beyond this perimeter in which they had 400 law enforcement involved in trying to find him. and he is now escaped that perimeter. what do you make of that? how does that happen? >> that was my fear when i talked to ana back on tuesday around about this, and when you do a perimeter like that, it is so hard to keep. when you look at that terrain,

he talked about the trees, and everything going under. it was so hard to keep that. especially at night, you have to shrink it down from line of sight. you can use different technology, but it is still tough to get that stuff in there. i was a little fearful that he was very confident about that perimeter. when he spoke today, he was very, very good on his timeline of what happened coming out. and he said, it's on him. he took responsibility. even though you are working a small tactical perimeter, you're also doing an investigation outside of that. so, that is things that he alluded to. hopefully, now that this guy has actually went out and sought help from people he knew, i'm sure now they're going to everywhere he worked years prior and figured out who still lives in that area, and alerting them and say, hey, if you get this, if this guy comes up to you, they may even put

surveillance out on some of those locations so that if he does go up there. so there are some things going on in the background that he alluded to. where he thinks he's going and why he thinks he's going west and ran out of gas. now they have to start really looking at are any vehicles missing from a location that you can now start walking? so they do have a couple of points that they can say, hey, he was here at this time. and then, they take time and say if he's not this far, if he's driving, well, then it gets a lot easier for all. >> that's actually a really interesting point. and so, now that we know it seems, from what i'm hearing from you, that he has contact, contacted individuals that he has known, worked with before. and that he may be likely doing that in the future. obviously, it doesn't seem like he has very much money, if any. he's got to eat, eventually. he needs help, right? as lieutenant colonel talked about as well. so, kind of putting surveillance in those areas in which he could be contacting

those individuals, i mean, that's an interesting point there. we know, of course, his mom at one point was helping authorities there. and they had a helicopter over this perimeter with a message from her in portuguese, pleading with him to turn himself in. that obviously did not help. we also learned in this press conference, his sister has been taken in by ice and readied for deportation. how concerned are you that this could extend beyond the borders of the state? as he has already said, this is not really become a nationwide search. at one point this gets turned over to other authorities, the fbi, for instance? >> i was fearful when he was down in his original location at delaware, three and a half miles from his location. but it was southeast of him. and he's now gone north and west. i think what is determining his locations now is he knew where some people lived, and they reached out for them. and he went that way.

there may be some other clues when lieutenant colonel alluded that he thinks he knows why he went west. so hopefully, maybe those are in the development stage of the investigation and trying to look at those. one of the things, though, again, this event that was left out unlocked with keys in it, it's the worst nightmare of a fugitive hunt. because if they get a hold of that, how long, it could go to the middle of the night -- they don't even. no part of that goes into, if he had said, hey, look, we have this perimeter, it is really sound. but you have to be very careful outside of this with your kids and your house and everything else. i think it became a little stronger, maybe i would've needed to take the keys in on this vehicle, this farm, or what they alluded to. because that is the most dangerous part. it does show that the fact that he couldn't get gas that he doesn't have money, that

whoever he's been breaking into, he hasn't come across cash in order to get some cash gas, maybe. again, the shaving, i knew he was gonna do that, anything you want to do is change your appearance. he has a hoodie. he now knows he probably was on that ring camera, probably ditched everything that he had. and they have to look at what was in the van or where he had access to, they may have taken. they do know he got that hoodie from the farm. so, what else was in there? they can be talking to, again, what does he have access to from the places that they know he's gone. >> we know they're obviously on the offense here. but is there also a part of this where they just have to wait him out as he gets tired, wait him out as he begins to possibly make mistakes, as he already has, reaching out to people, former friends or coworkers, that could make

visible the footage of him seeking out help. >> look, there was a man hunt back in 2014 in pennsylvania for the gentleman who murdered a state trooper. i believe that took seven weeks. i know the fbi's hostage rescue team was involved in that. and it got to the point where, hey, that's a long time. seven weeks is a long time. i was involved in a northern hunt on three separate occasions. you have to keep some pressure on him searching where you think he is. but then you also have to look at the bigger picture. he is wanted for a murder in brazil and left brazil and got here. so i'm sure in his mind, he doesn't want to get captured here. he is going to look for another country, mexico, canada, probably mexico would be easier. i think they spoke about that. yes, so, i think it's coming down to he is looking to go somewhere else outside of the u.s.. >> rob d'amico, thank you for

sticking with us through this. we're gonna continue to follow any developments here in the hour or so ahead. we've got a lot of other stuff going on as well. we are also following developments out of morocco, that devastating earthquake there, now over 2000 people on the ground there confirmed dead. that and much more coming up, right after a very quick break. ♪ ♪ ♪ u know that feeling of having to rewash dishes that didn't get clean? i don't. cascade platinum plus has me doing dishes... differently. scrub? soak? nope. i just scrape, load and i'm done. only platinum plus is bigger. with double the dawn grease fighting power and double the scrubbing power. for a no rewash clean... and a cabinet ready shine. rewash? not in my house. upgrade to cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently. the subway series menu is getting a new lineup of sandwiches - the deli heroes. there's fresh sliced turkey on the titan turkey.

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the released report from the special grand jury in georgia is raising more questions after it was revealed charges were recommended against an additional 21 people in the election interference case, including senator lindsey graham. the senator denied any wrongdoing and said this -- we cannot criminalize senators doing their job. i want to bring in now shannon mccaffrey, editor of the grand jury from the atlanta journal-constitution to talk more about this. shannon, thanks for joining us on this. appreciate it. i think this nine-page report when it first dropped, the biggest question out there, and i'm wondering what you glean from your reporting in this, is why was it that fani willis decided not to move forth with also indicting these 21 individuals that were named? what have you learned? >> thanks for having me. yeah, it was intriguing to us as well. we did expect there will be some additional names and that report to be indicted. but a number of them was frankly pretty surprising. i think there are a few

reasons. one is that, you know, those grand jurors were hearing which was provided them in a room by the prosecutors, so they have limited information. you know, and the report they put out was nonbinding. but then fani willis had to look at those names and say, okay, these were folks that a grand jury, you know, would indict. and there's a much lower burden of proof there. it's a probable cause for burden of proof. if you put this in front of a grand jury, you better have enough information to convict them. and that's a much higher standard, you know, beyond reasonable doubt is much higher. additionally, i would point out that some of these folks could be cooperating. you know, some of these folks may be people who the d.a. has flipped. we know that at least eight of the so-called fake electors, these are the folks that ran, attacked the capitol and voted for trump when biden was clearly the winner of the state. we know they're cooperating, possibly more. there could be other names in there that in the time that's

elapsed the, the d.a. has on her side and they're ready to testify. >> let me ask you about number 10 on that list of 21, lieutenant governor brett jones, fulton county d.a. fani willis has disqualified from investigating him because of a conflict of interest. is there a sense, though, there could be charges in the pipeline for him? >> it's really notable that he not only showed up in this report, but he showed up in the indictment, not by name, but as one of the unindicted coconspirators. there was enough bread crumbs left that we can clearly see jones in the indictment. what's happening now is that since the d.a. was disqualified because of political conflict, the prosecuting attorneys council of georgia is looking at the case, and they are deciding whether to appoint a special counsel. they did put out a letter after this -- after this report came down on friday and noted that they had seen the report. they were looking at the

report. and they would go from there. so the ball is really in their court. but i think, you know, you can infer that the district attorney put enough information out there that they will at least have a running start, who you know, with some information to go with, you know, should they go down that path. >> silent mccaffrey for us, thank you, shannon. appreciate it. everybody, it has become the interview heard around the nation. republican presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy joining my colleague maggie hassan for a spirited conversation on his background, his campaign. and above all, his stance on arguably the number one issue facing gop candidates heading into 24. donald trump and january 6th. and ramaswamy got a little more than he bargained for. watch this. >> there is a difference between a bad judgment and -- >> understood. you are avoiding my question. what did donald trump do, in your view, that was downright

abhorrent? second time i ask. >> i think the thing that i would have done differently if i were in his shoes -- >> it's not what i asked you. >> declared a reelection on january 7th -- >> that's exactly the thing i would have done. what would trump do, egregious, downright abhorrent, and a danger to the democracy? can you explain to our viewers, your words? >> you are mixing two different things. what i think was reprehensible about what happened that day, look, i think that the way a true leader should have handled that situation, should have been to actually say, this is me running for reelection, not actually litigating what is already passed behind this. and i would've done things differently. that is not a crime, though, what he did. the reason i am so vehement -- >> you keep saying that, unless you are scared of him, why wouldn't you say what he did was downright abhorrent? >> i'm not gonna let you states together three things in three different places -- here is what i'm gonna tell you. >> i want you to answer my question, vivek, three times

i've asked it. is what trump did downright abhorrent? it's your words, it's onscreen. >> i believe that failing to unite this country fall short of what a true leader ought to do. that is why i am in this race, do things differently than any prior president as dumb. that's the hard truth. >> okay, and that is what the bargain is -- >> the reality is none of that is a crime and the reason i have been so vocal -- >> okay -- >> and i am joined now by mehdi hasan, to talk more about this. i gotta say i am surprised that vivek even came on to your show. if anybody saw you doing interviews, if i were part of his team and decided whether or not i would allow him to be interviewed by you, i would've probably told him, don't do it. you did an incredible job. it's amazing to watch. i've watched it many times now. it's amazing tbut i wonder as yo this thing, mehdi, which was your ultimate goal here in

doing this interview with him. >> first off, i should point out, i did not even invite him on the show. he suggested himself back in july. he tweeted at me saying, have me on your show to debate on this stuff, msnbc. we said, all right, after the debate, it looked like he was actually a serious contender. we said, come on their. we actually invited, he actually invited himself on this part of the strategy to throw himself in this -- year wasn't really known six months ago. but he's done this intense media attention campaign. and michael was to try and hold him to account for some of the nonsense that he said in those interviews and for some of the lies he's told about his boss. what he's done so well up until this point, including on the debate stage in milwaukee, is to just basically talk over people, speak superfast, and superconfident lead. so do i -- i was ready for that, and he we did our homework, my team and i. we came to him with his quotes, his books, his tweets, his tax returns. i don't think he was quite ready for that because he got an easy ride so far. >> that was a moment, mehdi,

when you went at him with his tax returns. if anybody has not seen that part of mehdi's interview, you should certainly watch it online because it is amazing to watch. when you were talking to him, i think two of the biggest things, it seems, you are trying to hold him on was, first, his qualifications. and secondly his trustworthiness. was it there or was it not? and i think going into it, you probably understood it was likely not gonna be in there. all that said, mehdi, your audience is not the type of people that are going to be voting for someone like vivek ramaswamy. so even by having him on your show, right? it's not those folks are now gonna say, well, mehdi, he kind of called him out. right? >> first of, all i would say there's a value to truth in and of itself. i don't care if i'm saying truth in an empty room. sometimes it doesn't matter the audience, you just have to reinforce the truth. one thing i have to say, yasmin, the desantis people are sharing

the hell out of this clip. he's got rivals on the right who are actually very happy to see him held to account. i've seen a bunch of conservatives, people like meghan mccain was no friend of mine, saying why didn't conservative media ask vivek ramaswamy these questions over the past six months. why did he get a pass on the right for so long? interestingly enough, given the dynamics of the gop presidential race, and desantis heels, they're actually appreciating the fact that someone asked some of these questions. appreciating the>> that's a reae point. and it's interesting because of the leak that came out of the desantis campaign a week ago, saying we're gonna be focusing more on vivek on that debate stage. obviously, the front runner is the former president donald trump. what do you most, mehdi, worry about looking ahead to this election, specifically, the primary race, and then ultimately, the general? >> the most worrying thing is something i've been saying for a long time. i'm sure you have too. the authoritarianism that comes out of the gop. and vivek ramaswamy despite being the son of immigrants,

having a brown skin, he is an authoritarian as the rest of them, if not more. so on friday, he announced that he wants to deport u.s. citizen kids of undocumented immigrants. he doesn't accept the birthright citizenship under the 14th amendment. so it's a real problem when you've got a bunch of people who are not called donald trump but are as authoritarian as he is if not more so in some cases. >> it's also interesting to hear the former president praising him as well, wondering what type of position, if in fact the former president were, for some reason, miraculously pull off a win in 2024, the position he would actually give vivek, considering how he has positioned himself. and i just keep thinking whether or not that's exactly what vivek is planning for here in running for president, knowing that he's polling around 6%, maybe getting ron desantis a run for his money, but really not anybody else there. mehdi hasan, my friend, as always, we are thankful for you. be sure to catch mehdi on the mehdi hasan show airing every sunday eight pm eastern and tuesdays on peacock as well.

thank you, mehdi. appreciate it. we've got a lot more coming up, folks. you're watching msnbc. our second hour starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> hi, everybody. i am yasmin vossoughian. if you're just joining, us welcome. if you are sticking with us, we are thankful for that. we are following the devastating situation in morocco, the death toll soaring to over 2000 people. a report from the rubble is coming up. a new information just out on the search for that pennsylvania fugitive. police saying this at a news conference just a short time ago. >> i'm not gonna make an excuse to you. i wish it had not happened. unfortunately, there are a lot of circumstances, there are a lot of issues associated with that property. >> and we are just days away from the return of the house from summer recess with chaos on the agenda for the gop, with a potential government shutdown and impeachment threat looming as well.