what to do with those old wires? here's some advice from my colleague jake ward. >> the old whitening elaborate are gonna be around for a long time and there's gonna be a need for those for many years to come. >> don't throw them away. copper and silver in the turn to cables are valuable inch save huge resources when you use them. >> the reality is recycled copper uses 85% less energy that creating new copper. >> he went for everyone. because then he went and his co, my good friend jake ward will be joining me right here live to talk about that huge tech summit on capitol hill, tomorrow. and they could not, i wish to a good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks and nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i'll see you at the end of tomorrow. d of tomorrow >> thanks to you at home for joining me this hour. today, speaker at the house

kevin mccarthy announced that despite having no real evidence, he is opening an impeachment inquiry into president biden. lucky for us, we don't have to wonder whether or not this is a bad, fake effort by speaker mccarthy, and that is because back in 2015, when he was pitching incel for house leadership, mr. mccarthy said the quiet part out loud. >> the question i think you really want to ask me is how will i be different? >> why don't you answer my questions but go ahead. go right ahead. >> i know you want to ask it. what you will see is a conservative speaker that takes a conservative congress, that puts a strategy to fight and win. let me give you one example. everybody thought hillary clinton was unbeatable, right? but we put together a benghazi special committee, a select committee. what are her numbers today? her numbers are dropping, why? because she isn't trustable,

but no one would had known that any of that had happened, if we had not thought that -- >> i give you credit -- i give you credit where credit is due. >> i'll give you credit where credit is due, you've got her, kev, you've got her. if you don't remember the benghazi hearings, and then i am very jealous. the republican-led investigation lasted more than two years. it was longer than the investigations into watergate and 9/11, the jfk assassination, and pearl harbor. it was longer than all of those. it cost taxpayers millions of dollars, and a primary focus of all of that was hillary clinton. smack dab in the middle of her presidential campaign. a campaign that speaker mccarthy admitted people thought was unbeatable. when the benghazi hearings concluded, the final reports found no evidence of wrongdoing by the former secretary of state clinton. but the facts weren't what

mattered here, it is about the optics, it was about the messaging. it was about making secretary clinton look like a criminal on television for months and months so that she could become, again, in kevin mccarthy's words, untrustable. once republicans had planted that seat, they could litigate and re-litigate clinton's trustability, again, mccarthy-ism, over and over again during a campaign, and a campaign that ultimately ended in her duffy. now, speaker mccarthy and his party appear to be ready to run the same play against president biden, just ahead of the 2024 election. remember, there has already been a republican committee in the house investigating president biden for months. earlier this year, that committee released a report that confirmed, much like the clinton investigation, that there was no evidence of wrongdoing by president biden. but again, the facts do not appear to be the point here. the point is to create months of conservative tv coverage

that makes biden seem like he is in just as much legal hot water as former president trump. it is to make joe biden on untrustable before the 2024 election, hoping that the race ends at the same way that it did for hillary clinton. this is what they got. if you can believe it, this is the plan. given what donald trump is facing himself in the lead up to the 2024 election, four criminal trials, 91 felony counts, including crimes related to trying to overthrow american democracy and recklessly handling national security secrets, given all of that, can republicans use in impeachment moon goggle -- or at the very least to make him look as bad as donald trump? boy, that is an uphill climb. 91 felony counts is not a small number. remember, the truth is beside the point here. remember back in 2020, that republican staff of the senate

finance and homeland senate committee issued a joint support that among other things, made a very specific claim that president biden's son hunter received a 3. 5 million dollar wire transfer from the wife of the former mayor of moscow. the washington post looked into that very specific claim, even found the wire transfers that the committee was referencing, but the washington post found no evidence that hunter biden was part of those transactions. the claim was not true, but that did not mean that candidate donald trump would not use it. >> why is it, out of curiosity, the mayor of moscow's wife gave your son three and a half million dollars? >> that is not true. >> what did he do to deserve it. what did he do to deserve 100 -- >> none of that is true. >> oh, really? he did not get three and a half

million? >> mister president, please -- >> totally discredited, by the way -- >> he did not get three and a half million dollars, jim. he did not get -- >> mister president, it's an open discussion. >> it's a fact. >> there is an issue, let them answer. mister president, let him answer. >> he does not want to be answered, because he knows i have the truth. his position as been totally, thoroughly discredited. >> by whom? >> joining me now is david plough, former white house senior adviser under president obama and john houten, a political analysts and msnbc analysts. thank you both for being here. john, my head already hurts. first of all, i have ptsd from -- we all have ptsd. >> hasn't your had been hurting for about seven years? >> decades, honestly. obviously, we have seen this play being run before. we've heard the name hunter biden. is there anything meaningfully different from the last time that the republicans tried to

use this, and what we are facing and looking down into in 2024? >> there's been some evidence induced to appear here that there is a lot to do in terms of what hunter biden did. the story has moved forward. there's also questions about the way that the justice department has treated hunter biden. there are reasons to focus on them, reasons to care about them, they should be investigated, there are possible crimes, he possibly should go to jail. what others are not making the point, again, what has not changed is that there is no more evidence that joe biden had anything to do with that in any meaningful way. there is more grist to this, i would say, because hunter biden as clearly behaved in ways that are unseemly, unethical, possibly illegal. there's more than the benghazi thing, more to say about that. the benghazi issue involve the secretary of state. >> and there is more to hunter biden, still nothing that ties

any of this to joe biden, so when you say there is more than benghazi, with respect to a biden -- >> i totally agree. you're asking what is different. what is different is that they have more grist for an illegitimate mill. that is the more fuel to run the plight that they try to run over and over again. it's the same play. it's just because hunter biden is in fact more problematic on 's own then what happened in benghazi, which turned out to have been the terrible loss of life but not anything with corruption or anything about american foreign policy that could be pinned on hillary clinton. that was truly a nothing burger. in this case, the children of spouses and presidents, as david plouffe knows, although his boss, barack obama, he did not have these problems, because he had the perfect family, essentially. it's historically democrats and republicans who have to carry

that burden. it is still the case that the most important thing to say is that as many republicans admit, either publicly or privately, there is still no real connection to joe biden. that is obviously not going to stop republicans. i think it could lead to republicans losing the house, although, probably, kevin mccarthy won't keep his speakership at least for a little while. >> david, i want to go to the congressional dynamics in a second. i marvel that this so far seems like the big play for 2024. you're not seeing anyone on the national stage disavow this effort. this is something that donald trump wants. you see his foot soldiers in congress march in line. and i wonder as a democratic strategist, what should the response be from the biden white house? and more broadly, what do you make of this tactic? >> well, alex, assuming that we're looking at a biden trump matchup, which smart money suggests that we are, one of the core arguments that the

biden campaign will make amongst others is that we cannot allow the trump circus back into town. what you will have now is all of his deputies, mccarthy and the other house leaders, wasting time and money on an impeachment. there are plenty of arguments to make against joe biden's reelection as any encumbent. this, i think, only adds to the argument that biden and his campaign make, that americans don't want to work in the trump show. and i think john's last point is really important. this is happening largely because kevin mccarthy has to do this to satisfy the hordes in his conference to keep his job. he knows swing districts in california and new york that gave them the majority. should there be impeachment hearing? should joe biden be impeached? this will be deeply unpopular. once again, this is other evidence. we have been seeing this well over a decade now, where they got this kind of perverted universe, fox and breitbart and sinclair, and that is all they

care about, speaking to that. even if it does damage in the middle of the country and the middle of the electorate, which is something like this i think will do. >> and i do want to talk about the congressional dynamics in a second, john. you studied joe biden as a journalist. and one of the things that has been so enduring is this man's a legacy of integrity and decency. we all remember the convention videos, where it is like, the amtrak employee talking about what a good guy i am. trying to upend a decades old legacy in american life is hard to do, and i think republicans, and they keep trying to do this with biden, saying that he is a tool of the radical left, whatever the particular arrow is that day, but none has stuck so far. i sort of think, it's a fools errand to keep trying it, and at the same time, won't be to the white house that is dismissive of all of this.

>> here is the additional thing, if you pump enough mud and toxic, noxious stuff out there in the immediate ecosystem, you'll see some numbers move. what's happened? we see these polls that say 61% majority says that biden had some involvement in hunter biden's business dealings. the republicans watch the numbers go up, they get excited vida. 50% think that they behaved illegally. 44% think that joe biden is a crook. that is 40% of the country. those are republicans. a bunch of other people think that he might have acted unethically but not illegally. the thing i would ask david about to comment on is, the problem with all of these numbers is the question of salience, that people have lots of views about lots of things that they never vote on. the idea that the republicans are throwing all this mud at joe biden and hunter biden, that some of it might be

sticking a little bit but is not sticking meaningfully, in the sense that, yes, a higher percentage not think that maybe he was involved and 100 business dealings, but where does that rank on the things that you'll vote for president on. to me, that's the thing when you go talk to people around the country, you're not going to people in the middle of the electorate to say, you know, i want to wait to see how the hunter biden investigation will come down, because that's how they will decide about joe biden. they're worried about democracy, about jobs, about health care, not worried about this thing, even if they say, yeah, it looks fishier than it did six months ago, it's the number 27 on the list of things they care about. >> david, to that end, if you're talking about the margins which are always really tight, do they care more about the fact that joe biden may have, if you believe the republicans spin, been somehow tangentially involved in hunter biden's business dealings, do they care about that more than the fact that republicans in congress are wasting a lot of time and money trying to spin something out of an impeachment inquiry? i think politically, can you talk more about the price that

republicans pay in congress if they were for on this? >> what is fascinating to me, alex, mitch mcconnell has talked about this through the, ears where they should have won the senate seats and majority many number of times, but they had candidates that appealed to those that would cheer this impeachment inquiry. but they basically repelled swing voters. the risk at the party, kevin mccarthy is presiding over a historical narrow house majority, and it seems like the lens he is looking out to please the mat gaetzes of the world, not to protect at the vulnerable members. super presidential, they don't act as if this will come down to a small number of states and voters in the states. the point about salience is important. when i used to run campaigns, when you talk about an issue or a crisis or a scandal or an accomplishment through a political lens, all that matters is that something will actually drive votes, meaning, will somebody vote for you that

was not going to, or vice versa, going against you? is someone going to turn out that was not? if not, it does not really matter. i just think the republican party right now, writ large, is focused on the service, on this sort of perverted atmosphere and a dome that they all live under and not thinking about the jobs point. in the phoenix suburbs, the suburbs of atlanta, in waukesha county, wisconsin, allegheny county, pennsylvania, the small number of voters that turn out for the presidential election are not going to think that the impeachment is important to them, and i think we'll see both of that, that they continue to be a party that is catering to the extreme right. it's very puzzling to me that we have election after election where republicans probably could have done better if they paid more attention to the center of the electorate. >> yeah, those are words to live by. you could have done better if you actually paid attention to the electorate, period. david plouffe, thank you for

your expertise this evening, as always. john heilemann, stay in your seat, please.. there is a lot more. >> i appreciate when david bass attention to the circus. >> circus, we're coming back in the fall, we'll have more on that in a second. we have a lot more to get through this evening, including the creative ways that republicans are raising money to help lead the legal fees for trump's codefendants. it includes baby back ribs, probably. but first, alabama republican senator tommy tuberville seems pretty smart that he will continue to block military promotions, even if he's not exactly sure of what is at stake. more on that coming up next. (dad) we got our subaru forester wilderness to discover all of the places that make us feel something more. (vo) subaru is the national park foundation's

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>> the senate is now back in session, which means that tommy tuberville is back in his blockade. the junior senator from alabama and former football coach is still single-handedly holding up hundreds of military appointments, all part of his

one-man pressure campaign to get the department of defense to stop paying for travel when a service member goes out of state to get an abortion or other reproductive health care. coach tuberville's protests have been going on since february, and right now the army and navy and marine corps are without leaders who have been confirmed by the senate. if senator tuberville keeps this up through the end of the month, the country will also be without a chairman of the joint chief of staff. that is because by law, the current chair, general mark milley, must leave at the end of his four-year term, a fact that senator tuberville seemed to be unaware of yesterday. >> you have any more conversations with d. o. d. or white house or anything? >> no. >> the expected to speak to

them before milley's date? >> one is that, and at the month? >> october 1st. >> i'll call milley and wish him could luck, but i don't, i don't know whether he'll go anywhere until they get somebody confirmed. >> he statutorily, he can't, he has to leave. >> he has to leave? he's out. we'll get somebody else to do the job. but hopefully, it's done by then. sooner or later, they gotta decide to do something. >> it's unclear who the they in the situation is, but by law, the chairman of the joint chief of staff serves at the pleasure of the president for a term of four years, beginning on october 1st of an odd numbered year. 2023 is an odd numbered year. only in the time of war does the term limit not apply, and that is why the biden administration picked general milley's replacement months ago. air force general charles q brown was nominated back in may, but senate has yet to vote on him. today, the senate majority leader urged tuberville to end as blockade and three unchecked -- and 300 other flag officers and called on republicans to pressure him as well. >> it's absurd, absurd, it's caused by tuberville, solely by tuberville, he has to back off. they should be telling

tuberville, and maybe they are, that he should back off. >> as of right now, senator tuberville is showing no signs of backing off. this is what he told me at the press now this afternoon. >> i am not holding up all of this. i am not holding up the nominations. this bring a general brown to the floor, who they want to be the chairman of the joint chiefs. he'll be nominated within two hours, and he will be confirmed. they do not want to do that. >> with me here is msnbc national affairs analyst and co-host and executive producer of showtime. the circus on showtime. my alma matter. >> i was what to say, how soon they forget. >> okay, the politics of what is happening in the house are so bad for republicans. and the politics of tommy tuberville, his whole is hurting the military and, by the way, bringing up the topic of reproductive freedom over and over again.

the politics are so bad for the gop. do you have thoughts on how republicans can even begin to play this? >> i don't really. it's funny listening to david plouffe before about mitch mcconnell. we are so used to now thinking the house republicans are the problem for the republicans nationally, and comparably, the senate is only saying that the upper chamber is also off at the trolley, the trolley got off the rails. nikki haley had this thing where she have to have a competency test for the president. i think if you had a political iq test for the senate, the first person to fail out would be tommy tuberville, who is adjust, hey, let's make it a republican party look bad on the military and also raise the issue of abortion and hand these issues so that democrats -- democrats love tuberville --

that's the briar patch that joe biden would love to live in for the next 18 months. but for the country but great for -- >> it is testament to the fact that nobody is driving the bus really, in either chamber really, it feels. the fact that kevin mccarthy is making concessions to the far-right flank, and even mitch mcconnell cannot talk tuberville out of this hold. >> it's one of the things that i would simply respective mitch mcconnell, the widespread perception of mitch mcconnell is not what he once was. and he is not exercising the iron political leadership that he once did, that people feel that mitch mcconnell will get in tommy tuberville's face at this moment, i think that is no longer operative. the senate is not yet the house, but there is these flickers of it on the republican side. tommy tuberville is like a blaring siren of how out of control republicans could be in the senate, and again, how bad it could be for the party in 2024. >> and by that, the country. john heilemann, my friend, thank you for hanging for two blocks, it's great to see you, always. >> absolutely. >> you can just sit awkwardly over there. >> if they had beer over there.

>> we're working on that. still more ahead tonight. how the fulton county d. a. plans to try trump and his 18 codefendants altogether in the georgia election case. those details are set to be released any minute now. we have been counting it down. more on that is coming up after the break. the break. ♪♪ we're not writers, but we help you shape your financial story. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets. ♪♪ we're not a startup, but our innovation labs use new technologies to help keep your information secure. ♪♪ we're not architects, but we help build stronger communities. ♪♪ we're not just any bank. we are citi. ♪♪ my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. his a1c? we are citi. it's down with rybelsus®. my doctor told me rybelsus®

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donald trump a candlelight

dinner's new jersey golf club to raise money to help pay for rudy giuliani's monster legal bills. tickets were $100,000 a plate, and mr. giuliani apparently collected more than $1 million from the candlelit dinner, which is good news for rudy giuliani. because trump is reportedly refusing to pay giuliani's bills himself. trump just pays for the candles. down in georgia, the republican fake electors indicted for their roles in a conspiracy to steal the 2020 election, they are apparently also, similarly, in need of funds. but instead of candles at bedminster, a local republican party chapter is putting together a barbecue and a silent auction in november to raise money for them. all of these creative event ideas are part of what appears to be a season of fundraising for fake electors and election deniers. it began in michigan last month

with -- maddock, one of the 16 fake electors facing felony charges in that state, hosting a pull side pop up to help terry's money to cover the legal bills for all the fake electors in michigan. magic charge $30 a ticket, provided snacks but people on the invitation to, quote, bring your own drink. we did not know how much she raised, and it is unclear if poolside doritos and baby back ribs are going to suffice here. there is a lot of legal peril on the horizon. in georgia, for example, the defendants in that case are accused of participating in a wide range of conspiracy to subvert the will of the voters. now, at this point, at least five of the fake electors and in that statge have made motions to have their cases moved from fulton county to a federal court. but that effort is not going well. the first request to remove the case from federal court, made by trump's former chief of staff mark meadows, that was

flatly rejected on friday by federal judge stephen jones, and the fake electors all claiming that they acted as federal officials, when they cosplayed as legitimate electors, they could face a similar outcome. now, as for the future of all of the 19 defendants in that r. i. c. o. case, fulton county d. a. fani willis has until 11:59 pm tonight to try to convince a judge that she can both fairly and efficiently try all 19 defendants together on october 23rd. we have some breaking news on that front, just ahead. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato without talking to your doctor. don't take dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. this can cause serious or life-threatening side effects. if you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away.

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from yesterday. it is also the day that the trial for the first two codefendants in the fulton county d. a. fani willis's r. i. c. o. case in that state is set to begin. the da's prosecution team told the media and the fulton county judge that they would like to try all 19 codefendants together, and that they can do so by october 23rd. the judge in the case has asked the prosecution to tell him by this evening just how exactly the prosecution plans to do it. we have just gotten the prosecution's filing via the public docket. tonight, the ap is reporting on some of its contents, saying that prosecutors still maintained all of the defendants should be tried together, citing efficiency and fairness, quote, holding several lengthy trials instead would create an enormous strain on the judicial resources of the county superior court and will randomly favor the

defendants tried later, who will have the advantage of seeing the states evidence and arguments ahead of time, according to prosecutors. joining me now to discuss this breaking news is mary mccord, a former u.s. assistant u.s. attorney in d. c., former acting assistant attorney general for security at the doj and co-host of the msnbc broadcast, prosecuting donald trump. mary, let me get your reaction to the prosecutions explanation about how and why all 19 defendants should be tried together, that is about fairness and resources and efficiency? >> i understand that desire because no prosecutor wants to do 19 separate trials or really even five or six separate trials all involving the same evidence and basically the same facts. mind you, i have not yet gotten to see the actual filing because it really hit the books, i guess. i am basing this purely on what the ap is reporting. so i understand fani willis saying that we would like to try as many together as possible. but i do think it is

unrealistic here for a number of reasons to think all 19 can go to trial on october 23rd. first, five have pending motions, well, for have pending motions to remove, one as a motion to remove that has just been decided against him, that is mark meadows, that is now up on appeal in the 11th circuit. the 11th circuit have set a briefing schedule. five defendants might not even be going to trial in the state, the state court. they might be removed through federal court or at least have a shot at the, and that might not be decided finally through appeals by october 23rd. the other issue is that you have people who have asserted their speedy trial. that is kenneth chesebro and sidney powell, and others have not asserted that speedy trial right and might want to have more time to prepare, so to force them to go to trial on such a really rapid clock here. october 23rd is just around the corner. that could really infringe on

their due process rights. i think what fani willis is trying to do here is say, look, we understand, and i don't know that she said this, but even if there needs to be some separations of cases and not all 19 at once, we don't want this to be piecemeal one after the other after the other. so if people want to have their trials separate from october 23rd, they need to at least maybe agreed that they are not going to then one by one seek speedy trials, therefore splitting all of those people up and two additional separate trials. because it's time you assert your speedy trial right, under georgia law, you had to go to trial the next term of the court, which is usually a month later. that could be how you can see it parse out very piecemeal if they are all asserted at various times. i think she is trying to get as many to court in trial at one time as possible, and the judge probably wants that too. but 19 at one time on october 23rd, i just don't see that happening. >> the prosecution, mary, has

maintained that they will present the same evidence and same number of witnesses no matter who is being tried. do you think that that is sort of an argument to try to get the judge to try to judge as many as possible, or is that legitimate? of course, it seems to -- i have not read the filing either, because it just went up on the docket, but according to the ap's reporting, they are making the case that defendants tried later would have the advantage of seeing the states evidence ahead of time, suggesting that the state will present the same evidence and arguments at each one of the trials. >> they aren't right about that. to a certain extent, when you charge conspiracy, you're putting the constellation of evidence in support of a conspiracy in each trial. however, different defendants are charged with different aspects of that conspiracy. when i say that, i don't mean that they are not charged with conspiracy as a whole, because they are, but the overt acts and predicate crimes that

various defendants are accused of participating in do differ. for example, the fraudulent elector scheme, the coffee county scheme to actually access the voting equipment. you have the shakedown scheme to intimidate and threaten and coerce ruby freeman and shaye moss. there are different pieces of this. depending on how the defendants were grouped, you could probably cut down the overlap in your evidence, not eliminate it completely, but you can focus more on certain aspects of the conspiracy, in let's say a trial involved with all of those in the fraudulent election scheme. you can focus on different aspects in a trial involving all those involved in the coffee county scheme. we've seen cases broken up. think about what we had in d. c. with the oath keepers. there were more than a dozen tried, and then the judge thought that was too many to have go to trial at once, so he

broke them into two groups. yes, there was some repetitive niece in terms of the evidence produced, and yes, one could argue that the second group of defendants had an advantage by seeing some of that evidence, but that is the practical nature of being able to actually get to court and give everyone due process, which they are afforded under the constitution. >> yeah, the only issue i see there is that kenneth chesebro and sidney powell will be tried together, maybe as early as october 23rd, and they both are involved in the vast conspiracy. but ken chesebro's fake electors and sidney powell's voting machines. already, the coalition is breaking down. mary, thinking -- thank you for bearing with me on the breaking news. i know we will hear lots more about it on your podcast soon. i appreciate your time and brilliant thoughts as always. >> thank you. >> still more to come this evening, the republican party has managed to cling to power through demographic shifts that might have otherwise relegated them to minority status.

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and intelligence of global secure networking from comcast business. >> okay, the multiple it's not just possible. it's happening. conservative efforts in the house and the senate, even on the supreme court, all in service to an ex president who has never won the popular vote. all a very strong reminder of just how pervasive minority rule actually is in this country, and just how far that minority is willing to go to maintain power. as harvard government

professors daniel ziblatt and steven livitsky writes in his new book tyranny of the minority, we have studied violent insurrectionists and efforts to overturn elections all over the world, from france and spain to ukraine and russia, to the philippines, peru, and venezuela. we never unimagined we'd see them here. nor do we ever imagined that one of america's two major parties would turn away from democracy in the 21st century. professors daniel ziblatt and steven livitsky join me here tonight. this is a very, very timely book guys. thank you for running it and joining me on set tonight. let me just first start with --

we began this show talking about sort of the minority, working its way through congress in terms of an agenda to an attempt to impeach the president. now, it's a majority of republicans, but still it is not a desire shared greatly by the american public. at least by what we're pulling. what do you make of the republican party at this point? i know we read that quote, but is it a force of anti-democratic -- is it effectively an anti-democratic force on american society at present? >> we propose a senate criteria for citizens to evaluate whether a political party is democratic or not. and to be a loyal democrat, to be committed to democracy, you have to be three things. you have to accept elections, win or lose. you have to not use violence to gain power or hold onto power, and then most tricky of all, you have to distance yourself if you are a party or politician, from groups and allies that undertake those two violations. so that third criteria is very important, because often you have mainstream parties and politicians looking like normal democratic politicians, but who turn a blind eye to or justify or excuse these other kinds of violations. and when parties do that, there is a term for that. we call that semi loyal democrat.

the history of democracies says it's those kinds of political parties that often kill democracy. and that's why we're worried about today, because we see some of these signs. >> you said in that quote that we read that you never thought you'd see the republican party effectively, one of the parties, acting the way they have. is there a moment when that realization crystallized for you? is that a particular thing that really caused you to assess the gop in that way? >> there were several steps. our first book how democracies die. and we were deeply disturbed, early on, bye the republican party, the leadership. there were very few trump supporters among the party leadership, and they could have moved much more decisively to block them, or separate the party from him, had they chosen to do so. but they abdicated what they call their gatekeeping responsibilities. and supported him. despite the fact that they knew pretty well what was coming. they had an idea. and then during trump's presidency, i think this happened a little faster than i expected.

but, watching people like jeff lake and bob corker, eventually liz cheney, every single republican who stood up for the law, who stood up for democracy's, who stood up against trump, saw her or his political career essentially ended. and so most republicans who wanted to continue their careers decided that whatever they thought privately of trump, they would become trumpist in public. and that's when we knew that this party was now a danger to democracy. >> it's not just one party. it's also institutions that have effectively been bastardized, for a lack of a better word and exert far more control over american society, and it's a minority of people making those decisions. i'd love to get your thoughts on the supreme court and its current very conservative bent that seems at odds with what americans really want. >> we're really unique in the world in that the united states,

it's possible for somebody who loses an election, to become president through the electoral college. we're the only country in the world with an electoral college. and what that means is that often the winning -- somebody who wins a popular vote doesn't win control of the presidency. similar dynamic is that work in the u.s. senate, where often the popular majority of voters doesn't reflect the majority in the senate. and this combines to affect the supreme court. because the president picks, nominates supreme court justices. the senate confirms them. take 2016 for instance. in 2016 we had a president who didn't win the popular majority, nominating three justices, confirmed by a senate not reflecting the majority of voters, and we now have a supreme court that's 6-3 conservative majority. not reflecting anything that the majority of american voters want. and so we see this -- this is essentially minority rule. and this is where the title of our book comes from. >> and then the question is, okay, what do we do about it and how do we fix it? i did not know until your book came along that richard nixon actually wanted to do away with

the electoral college. i think we have one of the headlines here. i have not abandoned -- this is 1969. richard nixon, i have not abandoned my personal feeling that the candidate who wins the most popular votes should become president. this was not just -- first of all, this is nixon as in nixon. and it was a bipartisan effort. so what happened? >> this is a really important point. we don't think of it now. we've grown up in an era, in the last half century, where institutional and constitutional change is off the table. it's considered impossible. that actually hasn't always been the case. from the very beginning of this country, our citizens and our leaders have worked to make our political system more democratic. george washington, the very year that the constitution was written, wrote a letter to a friend saying, that this is an imperfect documents and it will

be up to future generations to improve its. and that's what we've done. whether it's expanding suffrage, or in the early 20th century, directing for -- appointed senate. we have slowly moved and made our system more democratic. we stopped doing it in the late 50s. one of the last serious efforts was the effort to abolish the electoral college. it came really close to passing. it was supported by leaders of both parties, it was supported as you said by president nixon, by the american bar association, by the chamber of commerce, by the afl-cio, by more than 70% of americans passed overwhelmingly in the house, had a majority in the senate, but didn't get the votes to get through. >> ironic. >> we came really close. so there was a time when constitutional reform was considered important, good, feasible. and i think we need to get back to that american tradition of working to make our democracy better. >> and i would agree with you, we need to get back to that tradition. but how do you do that when one of the main impediments to that work is a party that's fundamentally anti democratic, as it presently stands? >> it's a challenge.

but this is something that we have to embrace. we have to figure out, there is a path forward. and so for instance, in the last chapter of our book, we proposed 15 different ideas. so there is a way forward, and one key step is to eliminate the filibuster. at least weaken the filibuster. even though it's a small institution, it's not part of the constitution. it's just a senate rule. if we were to eliminate that or weaken it, it would be possible to get voting rights and reforms. if we had those through -- they could accumulate and a kind of sense that reform is possible, and that's what we really think needs to happen to address these bigger challenges like the electoral college, like term limits for the supreme court. and so that's the way forward. >> it's interesting, because what you guys propose is fairly radical change. we're talking about constitutional amendments, changing the electoral college. these institutions that are seen as foundational to democracy are precisely the ones that need to change. and it's actually an argument

for democrats and republicans alike, because we have a president who's loathe to get rid of the filibuster because he's an institutionalist. but what i'm hearing is in order to be a more representative, fairer democracy, we have to change those institutions. it's not a reaction to -- it is the only way forward. >> americans may not realize this. we're the only democracy on earth that uses the filibuster. in every other established democracy in the world, regular legislation passes with the majority. it doesn't need 60 votes to past. that is really undermining our democracy, because americans look out and they see that majority support doesn't control. they see that majority support, a voting rights legislation. that majorities may support abortion rights legislation, and none of the stuff can get through. so the will of often large majorities in the united states is being thwarted regularly, systematically, permanently by a partisan minority. that doesn't happen in other

democracies. >> they update their constitutions, they move forward. and there is an ongoing experiment in self-governance. professor steven livitsky and and daniel, thank you for writing this. it is essential reading in these times, and may i say, it is also hopeful. which is a really big thing also in these times. thank you both for your work and thanks for being here tonight. >> thank you. >> that is our show for this evening, and now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, alex. i have it right here. this is the motion from district attorney willis that you were discussing, which i learned about washing your show. and then we went in to high-speed mode to find it, so we can say a little bit more about it. >> please do. >> it is fascinating.

her really pressing the point of she wants to have all 19 defendants in the courtroom together. she makes a strong case for it, and we'll get into it with -- their reading of it. they've had some time to read it, and we will see where this is going. >> they've had more than five seconds to read it, which is what i had. i will learn lots from your show, lawrence. because i was learning as they say, in realtime on air. so i'm looking forward to you. >> i was sitting there, over there, and i heard you say that and i went, wait a minute, we don't have that. what's that? it's happening right now. >> all right, i'll tune in. >> thank you, alex. >> have a good show. this is the motion from district attorney willis that you were discussing, which i learned about washing your show. she said the state maintains that all the defendants shop the trial together. she stresses