people and social good and do things well we have to look at long-term horizons. >> it seems that the tech ceos would like to be able to move fast and that regulation should not slow them down. >> that will do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪ ♪ hi everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. the fulton county d.a. is representing an unprecedented set of facts, plot to overturn a presidential election and group of defendants including an ex defendant, chief of staff and prominent allies and advisors.

the question today what will the trial or possibly trials, plural, what will they look like? there are 19 co-defendants, each with a different set of requests and priorities. one of the defendants is running for president of the united states for a third time and faces 78 other felony counts in three other jurisdictions and filing last night the d.a. fanni willis insists all be tried together. should the court grant the pending severance motions a potential consequence could be a caskad of additional speedy trial demands. each of the demands could spread out over the coming weeks forcing the fulton county court system to simultaneously accommodate three or more trials on the same facts before three or more sets of judges and

juries. realistically holding three or more simultaneous high-profile trials would create a host of security issues and would create unavoidable burdens on witnesses and victims who would be forced to testify three or more times. one of the defendants pushing to be tried separately, mark meadows was dealt a big legal blow in court. a federal judge denying a request for a stay in that meadows should be tried in fulton county and not as meadows would like in federal court. meadows argued he should be shielded because he was acting in his capacity as a federal officer as donald trump's white house chief of staff and the judge issuing a stern rebuke of that.

saying the court -- has already determined that meadows failed to show he is entitled to federal -- the court grappling with the complexity is where we begin with some of our favorite reporters and strengths. caroline, i start with you and meadows and his highly regarded attorney's recent string you have legal setbacks. i think meadows had been blessed both by better than average representation and better than it seemed trump and some of the other plotters had. now he has had a steady string, the third day coming on the air with a new legal development

representing a judge ruling against mark meadows. >> right nicole. i think it is important to note he has serious counsel. someone not playing at being an attorney but has been one for a long time. i think the losses for meadows are not unanticipated. they are not shocking. i don't think i would be shocked if there were small ways a judge ruled in his favor either. i feel strongly covering a lot of these kinds of cases that meadows had maybe the best argument among all of the other 19 for claiming that he had some sort of federal official role but there were huge problems and you and i have talked about them

already. some of the acts of the indictment might not be the strongest in accusing meadows of a crime but whether he was acting as a normal white house chief of staff in specific moments. in particular him deciding on his own whim to go and visit an audit of elections in georgia. there does not seem to be anything criminal about it ones it face but it certainly raises questions why a white house chief of staff wants to sit in on such an event that was not supposed to be public. >> there is the complicated piece, too, of what meadows was doing.

meadows got on a plane. i am not sure who paid but meadows got on a plane to oversee an audit. these are not the sorts of things anyone's hair is on fire over. but add it up and they did build to the defeat in course when fani willis' team had the e-mails communicating brazenly with the campaign. >> i think that it is important important to distinguish between the moments in which mark meadows appears to be acting as a campaign official. there is nothing criminal ones it face with a white house chief

of staff wanting his president to be reelected and wanting to raise questions about all of the steps that can legally be taken have been taken to assess the validity in states or precincts but making the claim all of the things were in your federal official role is a challenge for meadows and i think that i play a lawyer on tv and i don't like to be speculative. i can hardly wait to hear what tim and andrew have to say but it will be impossible for anyone else to make the claim based on the reception meadows had in court so far. >> tim, let me play for you some of the evidence developed by you and the january 6 select committee and then we will dive

in. >> what do you remember being involved in if the early discussions around thanksgiving time regarding having alternate electors meet? >> several of mr. giuliani's associates, mr. meadows. members of congress. >> did you hear the white house counsel's office say the plan to meet and cast votes for donald trump in states he lost was not legally sound? >> yes, sir. >> who you was present for that meeting that you remember? >> it was in our office, mr. meadows, mr. giuliani and a few of mr. giuliani's associates. >> the white house, including the former president's chief of staff mark meadows repeatedly

called or texted the secretary's office 18 times in order to set up the call. chief of staff mark meadows showed up at an audit site in georgia where he met with the chief investigator who was supervising the audit process. the day after meadows' georgia visit he set up a call between mr. trump and watson and that mark meadows wanted to send the investigators in her office -- including coins, autographed maga hats. white house intervened to make sure that did not happen. >> a want to deal with this intent and this knowledge of illegality first.

based on the testimony to the committee, the ones saying it to anyone that is listening that the plot is illegal, the fake elector's plot is illegal. meadows is not just in the meeting, he is convening it. it is in his office. rudy and all of the people orchestrating the fake electors plot. before i went back to watch the meadows specific evidence. all of the talks swirl around the opaque nature of his status. i forgot how exposed he is. he is naked with his rear end hanging out. he is essentiallies it quarterback. >> yeah. he did not deny any of that when he testitestified. he was just in the meetings,

that he was there with the president side by side and claimed to be keeping an eye on the president or part of his official role to ensure that the president and his staff, but his conduct in meetings and on the phone call suggested far from passive observation but active participation. he chimes in during the january 2nd call to make a false factual assertion. we know there are more dead people than that who voted. he is not a passive observer but active participant turning the wheels of the pearce. all of it is going to play out

in court. he will have an opportunity to respond. but there is evidence that he agreed with the plan. conspiracy, the essence of that is agreement, that two people agreed to commit an offense. >> here andrew we have the benefit of fani willis' filings being plainly argued, that even non-lawyers can understand them. this is her response to meadows' appeal. he, meadows, cannot demonstrate how his actions are not examples of political activity so he attempts to ignore them. so he can't explain his own failure to articulate the scope of his duties he argues essentially there is no scope of his duties. cassidy hutchinson was down there and she testified.

>> i do think that it is important for people to separate out the issue of removal to federal court where what carol was talking about has to do with whether he was acting as part of the campaign or whether he was acting in had the official capacity which does at any time allow acting on behalf of the campaign. mr. meadows famously has been quoted as saying in an investigation that nobody cares about the hatch act outside of washington. that really hurt him in the removal process. he couldn't deliniate something

he should be doing to something he shouldn't be doing. i do think he will have a hard time on his removal appeal. want second issue has to do with the criminality, wherever it is tried. he is in the thick of things. one place i don't think he helped himself is that in his testimony in connection with the removal proceeding, he took the stand. he said that he did not engage in any way or have any role whatsoever in the fake elector scheme and that is not true based on his own texts and -- that can come back to haunt him

and for jack smith to the extent he is looking to charge mr. meadows and dooms any chance of his becoming a cooperator now that he has perjurred himself. >> this flies in the face of everything we have been saying over a year now about the high power legal representation that he has. how did he end up in the position? like out of a law and order episode. is that true, mr. meadows. how did that happen? >> you don't know the decision making behind the scenes of his

testifying, but he is not a good witness. he fell hard by the end. he even conceded one of the key things he did is on behalf of the if campaign giving up the whole ghost. the whole argument. you would think a good defense lawyer would tell him you can't testify but maybe mark meadows insisted. tiam with carol. this is a real lawyer. but as a defense lawyer you take your marching orders on a decision like this from your client. that is something though you

need to honor. >> tim, i want to come back to you on the state of the georgia prosecutions and another request area that we spoke about yesterday. when you got powell exercises rights to a speedy trial and others, and trump's argument is that he will exercise his right to a fair trial, which does not mean speedy. what hear the chances of fanatic for fani willis saying no. they all have to be tried together? >> there are times when the rights conflict. the government can join defendants who are charged in a common scheme, a racketeering

enterprise. the government's default is that they should be tried together. the question for the court is which of the rights wins. maybe the speedy trial rights of the defendants have to be set behind the interest in the trial. judges often have to balance conflicting rights and here i think just the practical reality is appropriate but a trial of 19

people is cumbersome. the judge said we just can't accomodate that many lawyers in the same room. we had to parse it into smaller events. 19 would be unwieldy. i would be surprised if they all stay together. certainly not three or four or five trials the i think we are headed for a hybrid of defendants being stuck together to maybe not all getting a speedy trial as much as they would like. >> makes a ton of sense as we will see. what does this mean? thank you both for starting us off. the latest episode of apdrew's podcast prosecuting donald trump

is out right now. wait until 6:00 to listen to it though please. republican senator mitt romney announcing this afternoon he will not run for his senate seat again, and we are learning extraordinary new details about the reckoning and how it relates to the republican party's response to january 6th itself. and a day after kevin mccarthy's capitulation to the extremists in his own caucus, he is learning today it still might not be enough to save him. the latest from his caucus and the lies from fox news are back under another legal microscope. e the long-lasting scent of gain flings made it smell like dave was in his happy place... ...the massage chair at the mall. but...he wasn't.

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he is a unique figure in the united states senate, harsh critic of the ex president, the last republican presidential nominee before the era of trump and trumpism, and the only republican senator voting to convict donald trump in both impeachment trials and today announcing he is done and won't seek a second term in office. romney was critical of both political parties and regarding donald trump's hold over the g.o.p. as the 2020 primary begins he says it is clear the party is inclined to a populist

demagogue message. political strategist matt dowd is here. and tim, i want to know if this is part of your investigation and something that you knew when you looked at january 6. this is from the book that dropped today in the atlantic 10. mitt romney hangs up with -- there are calls to burn down your home, mitch, to smuggle guns into d.c. and to storm the capitol. i hope sufficient security plans are in place but i am concerned

the instigator, the president is the one that commands the enforcements and mcconnell never responds. romney is reporting a call from the pentagon. does this sound familiar to you? >> no. not the specific text. that is not something we learned about but it is consistent with other information we developed. there was ample open source intelligence about threats of violence and about people come to washington openly talking

about carrying weapons and talking about revolution and that was known to law enforcement. that was known by capitol police and to federal authorities and it wasn't operational. it did not inform a more secure perimeter. we laid it out in the report and i want to make it clear none of that excuses the actions of the president's former coconspirators, but they exploited a weakness of underestimaing the threats of violence. >> this seems extraordinarily specific though. and this is based on a call romney receives from angus king.

it seems like specific information that the pentagon possessed. concerns from the pentagon that the president is the one that commands the reinforcements. is this why the national guard wasn't in position to help at the capitol? >> i don't think so. i think that would be secretary of the army delegation. they were there in the event that the capitol police needed them. so, again i do think that when you have military intelligence and law enforcement all

gathering information suggesting the possibility of violence and tying that to the rhetoric, there is a lot of intelligence online that people were coming because the president wanted them to. he is summoning us. it will be wild tweet, all of that is consistent. we should look hard at how we share and how we operationalize that type of intelligence. >> you are saying where romney writes to mcconnell i hope sufficient security plans are in place but i am worried that the -- you are saying your investigation saying it is pence and pelosi ending up on the phone. >> neither in advance nor on that day does the president

engage in the issues. they have been delegated to others. you can argue they should be more forcefully deployed and easy in hindsight to say that. but what is clear from that text suggests that the president is the instigator that law enforcement was seeing in advance is not just talking about the rally but a rally the president's rhetoric is stoking, consistent. >> it makes it all the more remarkable that you and liz did not have more success in bringing more republicans in to put all of the puzzle pieces on the board and whether this is the way others remember the conversation, we don't know. but it is a new puzzle piece that an inspect senator shared

that the instigator would prevent the government from reinforcing the capitol police four days before the violence. >> yeah. it also reinforces that it is not strictly an academic exercise. they are real people whose safety was in jeopardy. the vid i don't have mitt romney running through the hallway. those are real people in the building who are public servants who are in direct line of harm. mike pence comes within 40 feet of rioters. we can't lose sight of that.

the list goes on about people who were directly threatened by the conduct. real people on the ground that really suffered. >> i want to bring in cornell on what tim is talking about. mitt romney, we are watching those for you. quick break and we will be right back. r you. quick break and we will be right back with your erc tax refund so you can improve your business however you see fit. rosie used part of her refund to build an outdoor patio. stop waiting. go to innovationrefunds.com clink!

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here is what i know. trump strump a phony, a fraud. his promises are worthless as a degree from trump university. his personal quality would be america would cease to be a city on a hill. sort of sick of the republican primaries. it was march. it was not preordained yet. that was romney's attempt at persuading his old party not to do it, and they did it anyway. >> i would advise anyone interested in getting a look at what is going on, read the atlantic piece.

i have known mitt romney for 20 years. not many people know this, he flew me up to boston in 2006 or 2007 and asked me to be the strategy on his presidential campaign. i ended up voting for barak obama. mitt romney is a flawed person. i criticized him. you can't deny he is a person of character. the struggles he went to and opening up the okay on what all republicans are saying behind the scenes and so many of the statements saying how hard is it to tell the truth and that one statement when he says i don't think the majority of the people in the republican caucus believe in the constitution anymore.

it is a great example of our democracy, how dependant it is on people of character and integrity. when you don't have people of integrity and character, which the republican caucus doesn't seem to have anymore basically democracy begins to falter. >> a very large portion of my party does not believe in the constitution. we were a few months away from the instigated coup. ted cruz could give him a run for his money. they were too smart to believe that trump won the 2020

election. as romney surveyed the crop of republicans running it was career more hawleys were on their way and more disconcerting, j.d. vance. i don't know i can disrespect someone more than j.d. vance. >> you know nicole it is amazing. i was reading that piece and i was reflecting back on 2012 when i was working for barak obama and we were taking on mitt romney and were probably engaged in the last classical american campaign, and the last real american campaign when facts mattered before alternative facts. we didn't break them and throw

them out the window. i didn't agree with mitt romney on policy, but that is the deal. when you see him stepping back, the standard bearer for the republican party less than a decade ago. this is the guy we wanted to represent the republican party to someone that looks at his position now and understands he would have a hard time winning a republican primary in his home state. it is not about integrity anymore. when he is pointing out j.d. vance and ted cruz, they are making political calculations

that they know are wrong. >> there are pieces about the elites making fools of the people that vote for them. an echo of what president joe biden did when he paid tribute to his friend john mccain. this is romney a few minutes ago. >> a wise wing of the republican party. i don't think we are going away. we wing talks about policy and issues that will make a difference. the trump wing talks about resentment and getting even and settling score and revisiting the to 2020 election. my policy is only going to be successful getting young people if we are talking about the future and that is not happening

in that other wing. >> the trump wing of the party is dependant on lies. used to be rooted in a resemblence of the truth and now they are outright fabrications about the biden family, the border, the economy, the election. it is the right diagnosis but not the most blunt description of it. >> well, you know as i listened to that i am reminded of him going through the five stages of grief. joe biden thought he was still working with a republican party he could be reasonable and rational with. mitt romney will realize the wing of the party, there is only one wing. it is a mono wing plane and everybody else is am tossed out

without a parachute. he has been a servant in the matter and serving public service in the party. it takes a while before you realize that no longer exists in washington d.c. or around the country. the fact of the matter it will take some time just like it took joe biden. joe biden was dealing with a republican party he thought was in the 90s or 80s. he took a while before realizing that no longer existed. it is a fundamental indictment of the republican party. i want to ask you two because i think you worked up close and personal with the last standard bearer to go through the five stages, liz cheney. she voted for donald trump in

the 2020 election and saw his conduct leading into january 6 and she did everything that she could to ultimately elect democrats. she went out to endorse democratic candidates. do you think she has created a third way, a different thing for republicans to do other than say i don't see myself in the party by helping to elect democratic candidates. >> i think she like senator romney is waiting it out and hoping for a return to the historic roots, policy-based insanity of the republican party. there is one most for me, the day the dobbs decision came out. i believe miss cheney tweeted something about the decision and we had a committee meeting the next day.

i remember now, we disagree on fundamental things. she laughed and said yes, i am a real conservative. it was good natured. conservative. two people with policy differences that put them aside to work together on democracy. it doesn't happen much in washington or this country and it needs to. you know, the people opine for those days when we could constructively disagree and get to a better place. >> if you are pining for the days we can go back to fighting about policy. it does not run through a second trump presidency. it makes sure we remain a democracy and can speak your mind. timothy, it is a good reminder. i remember that day. thank you for spending so much of the hour with us.

when we come back, what happens when you make a deal with the devil or devils as they say? the devil does not pay back. today we can ask house speaker kevin mccarthy that question. he will explain next. t question he will explain next ♪♪ we're not writers, but we help you shape your financial story. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets. ♪♪ we're not a startup, but our innovation labs use new technologies to help keep your information secure.

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(♪ music ♪) only pay for what you need. (♪ ♪) the walking tree is said to change its entire location in pursuit of sunlight (♪ ♪) where could reinvention take your business? accenture. let there be change. >> first things first, we can't have a conversation about impeachment without stating that

no one has seen any wrongdoing on the part of joe biden as it relates to his son's business dealings. a growing number of republicans are conceding that fact publicly. watch. >> there is not a strong connection at this point between the evidence on the president. >> i don't believe they've even remotely completed their work on the kind of detailed investigations and quality work that speaker mccarthy is expecting both those committees to produce before someone goes to an impeachment activity. >> i'm just wondering if the threshold of the bar for impeachment seems to get lower and lower every year. >> we don't know whether there's any truth to it. so they need to probably continue their investigation. i'm not for impeachment unless it is iron clad. >> we don't have any facts. we don't have any evidence. those are republicans. maga republicans all of them.

remember, it's very likely that house speaker mccarthy initiated the whole thing out of a desire to appease his party's far right wing so that he could stay speaker. he needs their help passing government funding legislation for the deadline at the end of the month. so now nbc news is reporting the far right republicans still insist the impeachment inquiry has nothing to do with the fight over funding. okay. we're back with cornell and matt. i had a chance to speak to the white house yesterday on the show about this. even republicans admit it is bogus and it is something to funnel into the mouths of those who accept disinformation and propaganda. how would you navigate this? >> well, i hate the say it but it's almost as if though kevin mccarthy, they're giving up on retaining the house. this is going to give democrats

back the house. why do i say that? it is, you know, nicole, am i missing something? maybe you've reported on their bills that they've moved on inflation. they campaigned a lot on inflation. i seem to have forgotten them coming out talking about the ways in which they're going to stop inflation. or perhaps you've reported on it, their crime bill and the policies they're going to put forward and fight for and they're trying to push through legislation on crime because that's what they ran on. to me, this is kevin mccarthy saying, i give up on the idea of trying to hold the house by doing some of the people's work and i'm now making congress a full partner in the trump re-election campaign because what i'm doing right now isn't about servicing the people. it isn't about trying to reach any of our campaign commitments that we ran on.

this is about how we can help donald trump. i have to think democrats will run on that up and down the ticket, certainly for congress, going into the next election. what do you do to those republicans who are sitting in moderate seats who vote for joe biden the last time around? i know we're already beginning to use it against them. i have a couple candidates who are already plotting on how we use it against them come the fall of the campaign season. >> matt, lisa murkowski is the last voice there. she's not a maga republican. the others are certainly part of the republicans in good standing who are acknowledging out loud and seeming to articulate some of what cornell is saying. don't do it. the politics are terrible. even the republicans seem to know that.

>> even with people that you would not expect, ken buck, a very conservative republican in this, is saying the exact same things. to me this is so eerily similar to the election fraud stuff they did in 2020 in the aftermath. it's so much the same. what they're doing is, we have a solution. let's go find a problem. what they're doing. so as they did in the election fraud thing, they talked about election fraud, election fraud, election fraud. and then they said everybody is talking about election fraud. now they're saying biden, biden, biden, corruption, corruption, corruption. there is no evidence tying him to it. and they're saying well, everybody is talking about it. so it's the exact same play book they're using with no evidence. they come one a thing that will feed their base and then the people say, there is no evidence and then their base is screaming for it. they say, our voters are asking us for this. that's because you told them to

ask for it and now they're asking for it. so i think we're going through the same pattern. there was a time that a few years ago that people were saying, maybe the fever will break. the fever, we're way past the fever stage of this situation that we're in in the course of this. i don't know how, i guess this is the only way mccarthy stays in power to do these craven base political things in the course of this? i don't know how he keeps maintaining his power in this. i agree with cornell. every single thing they seem to have done including this. it is like an abdication that they want to win the 2024 house mid-term elections. >> it's interesting, too. i think someone on this hour predicted that one of the things mccarthy gave away in his 14, 15 votes to become speaker was a promise to impeach joe biden. but i come down on this. the known falsity of the claims

don't stop 400 voter suppression laws from being passed in 48 states, right? the known falsity of any cause or reason to impeach joe biden may not shield him from political damage. how do you protect against that? >> well, i think we have some evidence of this from the past. i mean, when you look at the polling data, and i've said, i'm not really worried about polling data right now because in many ways, biden is off the most in the polling data. he's off the polling data amongst those who should be for biden. you look at the young voters, the base group of democrats, what ralied the base of bill clinton the last time, like he was in trouble? it was an impeachment as seen unfair and unwarranted, and it seemed to be going after him in a real way.

and so uncanny way, this impeachment might do joe biden some help in that it helps rally the base of the democratic party around him so we stop having these stories about how the base is unhappy with him. it may actually rally the base of the party around him. >> that's so interesting. including, nicole, they did a government shutdown which also benefitted bill clinton in the course of his re-election fight. so they're running the play book they lost by, and in very similar fashion, a shutdown and an impeachment hearing. they're doing the same thing. i worry that voters are atuned to the idea that everybody is corrupt so they throw enough stuff out there that they seem like, well, i don't know, they're all corrupt. that's my fear and that's my fear about democracy in the course of this. when people stop trusting any politician and any constitution, then they throw up their hands.

it hasn't happened yet. we've had huge voter turnouts but it's my fear of a loss of trust with everyone. >> that's something that congressman jamie raskin articulated, that they're doing it for trump, so he can say i'm not the only one who got impeached. thank you both so much for spending time with us today. up next for us, fox news' dirty laundry could soon be back in a courtroom for all to see. we'll explain next. to see. we'll explain next uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. switch now and they'll give you nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv, on them. (hero fan) this plan is amazing! (josh allen) another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. (fan #1) that was josh allen. (fan #2) mmhm. (vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free 5g phone. only on verizon. oh, hello! hi! do you know that every load of laundry

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>> they have committed to telling lies about dominion that caused enormous damage to my company, our employees and the customers we serve. nothing can ever make up for that. throughout this process, we have sought accountability and believe the evidence brought to light through this case underscores the consequences of

spreading lies. truthful reporting in the media is essential to our democracy. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. it was an historic moment. an historic settlement in a defamation case. fox news agreeing to pay glin voting systems nearly $800 million over the network's repeated lies that the company rigged the 2020 election through their machines in joe biden's favor. it was a moment that proved to all of us that lies do have consequences. sometimes. fox news is not free yet. a similar lawsuit brought by election systems company smartmatic is also expected to go to trial in 2025 and another lawsuit filed just yesterday puts fox's lies right back in the spotlight. "the new york times" reports this. new york city's pension funds sued the fox corporation fund on tuesday, opening itself to

defamation lawsuits in the persistent broadcasting of falsehoods about the 2020 election. the funds held about 857,000 shares valued at, 28 million as of july 31st. brad lander, the city's comptroller who oversees the funds which also holds shares of come cast, our parent company, we are a company that has a longstanding practice of allowing conspiracy theories that its executives and board know are false to be repeated over and over and over again despite the very clear and present risk of defamation lawsuits erolleding shareholder value. and there has been no effort to make governance reforms. according to the complaint, axios reports this. fox news promoted, quote, political narratives without regard for whether the underlying actual assertions were true on sources worthy of credit. it accuses the company to, quote, profit from defamation.

the state of oregon's public employees refire department fund is joining the new york city funds in this lawsuit. "the new york times" knows that a fox spokesperson declined to comment on the case. the did he have administration lawsuit was sploes jif and radioactive for fox news. we learned the anchors knowingly lied to their viewers that even the executives knew these claims about the election had no merit. and then the network was forced to fire its prime time anchor after discovery revealed the text messages. only time will tell as they face another legal battle. it is where we start the hour. professor of law, the university of utah, and first amendment scholar is back with us. plus, "new york times" washington correspondent mike schmidt is here and with me onset, jeremy peters. let me start with you on the story. is this a typical investment for

the city to have? >> they invest in all sorts of corporations. so that in itself is not unusual. what is unusual is the totality of the legal action pending against fox news right now. you have two other shareholder lawsuits. another defamation suit which we've before that a guy by the name of ray epps has filed because tucker carlson, it smeared him as being the instigator of the january 6th attacks, which was completely false. you have the smartmatic case, and the recently settled dominion lawsuit. so it's really unprecedented to see this type of legal action against a single company like this. especially one as powerful with as much of a place in the political culture that fox news has. and these will drag on for years. i don't know what will happen with the smartmatic case.

i wouldn't be surprised if fox files a settlement. it is different than dominion because there's not as much discovery. i'm told the deposition there's happen shortly. the case with tucker carlson is so overwhelming. he essentially ruined this man's life saying that he was a secret double agent who was there instigating the january 6th attacks to embarrass trump supporters. i learned how difficult it can be on the other side of that propaganda machine.

these lawsuits reveal what we learned from viewers like you and the great reporting is that once the known falsity was established, once the judge said they knew these things were false and they broadcast them anyway, just how legally exposed the company is. where do you place the legal exposure for fox from the city pension fund? >> i think it is not a surprise this sort of suit would trickle out in the aftermath of that massive payout to dominion. it gives the dollars and cents numbers of the kind of cost that they incurred financially because of fox's choices. but also because that suit

produced this trove of evidence about who knew what when within the fox corporation. because there is all this evidence now that some of these folks at the very top of the corporation were privately disparaging and dismissing donald trump's false claims about the election at the very time the network was broadcasting those lies and leaning into conspiracy every conspiracy theory guests who were perpetuating these lies. it tees tim claims from shareholders about why those folks who were in the know didn't institute systems to protect the company from the kind of liability that it ultimately faced. the lie is clear that there is a duty on the part of these folks on the board of directors toward the shareholders not to erode

shareholder value or consciously disregard these known risks. we will see the interplay between corporate law and disinformation. a lot of really interesting questions on tap. can shareholders argue that truth and accuracy and avoiding defamation are core values, mission critical at any company that purports to be a news outlet. >> they are aware of the internal plans to goose audience to bring back audience share in

ways that are very likely to defame innocent parties, will we treat that in the same way that we treat them, ignoring red flags about other more obvious internal problems with illegal contact. there is a rich body of corporate law to be developed here and it overlaps with these concerns about disinformation in really interesting and important ways. >> you know, he says it is so important to keep in mind the land mark nature of the size of the settlement may have been the shiny object that we focused on. but what it established legally and the foundation for subsequent losses, jeremy mentioned a couple. i think there's a state department official solution every suing fox news, another suit as well in the same time span as these settlements.

i want to ask but the lawyering but i want to share some of what the lawyering resulted in. it resulted in a sworn deposition from roomert murdoch and this is what he said. question to rupert murdoch. you're aware that fox did more than simply host these guests and give them a platform. correct? i think you've shown me some material in support of that. in fact you are now aware that form endorsed at times the false notion of a stolen election? >> not fox, no, not fox. but maybe lou dobbs. maybe maria, as commentators. question, we went through fox hosts. maria bartiromo, yes? i think so. fox business host lou dobbs. oh, a lot. fox hosts sean hannity.

all were in that document. yes, they were. about fox endorsing the narrative of the stolen election. correct. no. some of our commentators were endorsing it. question about, their endorsement of a stolen election? yes, they endorsed. right there, you've got rupert murdoch basically giving dominion much of what it needed to prevail. the state of the lawyering has been the subject of a lot of your reporting. i wonder if you can take us through the continued fallout only front. >> so in late may, we wrote a whole story about the top lawyer at fox' handling of this case. we found that he had painted internally in far too rosie a picture of the results. he has been replaced at the top

of fox where he was the quarterback, the top attorney for the major legal issues the company was facing. and jeremy is much more of a murdoch expert than i am. that is clearly, it shows the deep dissatisfaction with the hundreds of millions of dollars here. you have to remember, it's not just the cost of these suits that fox has had its name dragged, you know, i'm not sure how much that matters to the murdochs or anyone there, but certainly the main street press, they have been widely criticized or portrayed negatively for this. this suit, or what was found in it was, part of other reasons why tucker carlson lost his job. now you have this new suit. when i saw it, i couldn't help but think in sort of, we never were able to write about this

and get into this. but fox is a company. the murdochs are a family familiar with scandal. there is the phone-hacking scandal, the news of the world over in europe there was this sexual harassment scandals that came out in 2017. and where was the internal controls of the company? this is a company that had been exposed greatly in these other hugely embarrassing matters. and was there any lasting muscle memory there inside the company that had, or could put brakes on their commentators and reporters and whoever else they were putting on air about putting up something that's false. it seems like, as part of the suits, it's not just that fox put this stuff out there.

it is that they continued to put it out there after they were told it was not true. and the adults in the room didn't really step in to say, hey, guys, this is not factual, what you're saying. you need to go on the air and correct it. >> i think that's such an important point. the culture never changes, right? the sexual harassment scandals become, making kelly one of the big star leads, the subject of a have many, there are millions in settlements from everyone from bill o'reilly to others. tens of millions of dollars. the culture doesn't change. what this suit reveals that perhaps no extraordinary piece of investigative journalists or anyone like a gretchen carlson that leaves. what this reporting reveals is the weakness of the executives to enforce things they know are wrong and illegal. this is from the deposition. the deposition who mike was just talking about.

when the have the executives know that hosts of shows are broadcasting allegations that the executives know or believe to be false, in that situation, the executives have an obligation to act, right? answer. if they are within the chain of command and if they and if they come to that knowledge, yes. question. and by act, that means to put a stop to it, right? they have an obligation under those circumstances, the executives do, in the chain of command, to put a stop to those broadcasts, right? answer, yes, to prevent and correct known false hoods. this also felt like a smoking gun. you had rupert murdoch saying, oh, yeah, i wanted sean and laura and others. that never happened. the executives know it's wrong and they know they're in legal trouble and nothing ever happens. >> what this entire dominion

lawsuit was, the decision to fire tucker carlson, these are business digtss. the executives at fox made a business decision that it was better for the ratings to continue to endorse the falsehood that president trump was cheated of victory. that's what they went with. it is what their audience wanted to haefrlt you have the chief executive of fox news saying we can't disrespect the audience. we have to, you know, in effect, give the audience what it wants. even if what it wants is a lie. and i think that you are going to continue to see that. because $787.5 million for a company like fox is a good chunk of change, but in the end, just like canceling tucker carlson's $25 million a year contract, or continuing to pay him out, even though he's not on the air. that's a business decision.

they can afford it and if it keeps their audience happy, look, one of the untold stories of this whole saga is just how quickly tucker carlson has evaporated from the political culture right now. i mean, he did this interview with president trump. >> you can't even find him unless you spend a lot of time on twitter. >> it was a total flop. just like fox agreed to settle this lawsuit for $787.5 million, they know that they could get rid of their most famous prime time host and gamble that it wouldn't cost them huge in the ratings. it did a little bit. but as of now, it's kind of hard to see, like, that was a bad move for them because the new 8:00 prime time lineup is really doing just fine. >> they have strong ratings. an interesting and important point to remind ourselves that

this isn't existing on a moral spectrum. they don't find religion. they don't realize the wrongness. they don't realize that it led to deadly violence and mike pence who you would think under that ideological umbrella will to run for his life. >> thank you all so much for starting us off on the story. we will stay on it here. when we come back, amid an all-out assault on republicans to access to reproductive health care and maternal herring. three new legal actions challenging abortion bans have been brought on behalf of women in dire need of health care. one woman will be here to share her harrowing story. and we'll take a closer look at the red states that have become maternal health care deserts and how health care has been hollowed out.

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>> i shouldn't have had to leave my lifelong home for health care and abortion care. >> they couldn't touch me until i was crossing and we should wait in the parking lot until i was about to die. >> because of these bans, my home hospital just lost its genetic counsellor and will soon lose the last fetal specialist. it isn't safe to be pregnant in idaho. >> that, ladies and gentlemen, is who we are. that is america in 2023.

this is what it is like for women who get pregnant and live in states of near total bans on abortion health care. those women are represented by the center for reproductive rights and they have now filed legal actions in their home states of tennessee, idaho and oklahoma after all of them were denied basic medical care during health emergencies. the reporting writes this. the goal is twofold to demonstrate that pregnant people are being denied timely medical care wherever abortion is banned and to give clarity to doctors where it was described as, quote, terrified to provide the procedure. the impact goes far beyond these horrific stories of these women who were denied health care. the bans have decimated maternal health care access as physicians have fled. they've left the states that refuse to let them treat their patients. some of them out of fear of

being prosecuted themselves. "the new york times" reports, across the country in red states like texas, oklahoma and tennessee, obstetricians including highly skilled doctors who specialize in handling complex and risky pregnancies are league their practice. some are avoiding states like idaho. the departures may result in new maternal care access and they are placing strains on the physicians who are left behind. joining me, the senior counsel, and suing tennessee, idaho and oklahoma on behalf of women who say they were denied abortion health care in medical emergencies. and joining us is jennifer atkins, the lead plaintiff in their idaho case who was told that her 12-week ultra sound that not only was her baby unlikely to survive, but that carrying out the pregnancy could be fatal. that it could cost her her life. instead of being referred to an

in-state abortion clinic to get the health care she needed, she was forced to travel to portland, oregon, in order to receive that care. first of all, i think you're so brave to talk about this, jennifer. i think being pregnant and being scared is universal. i think being pregnant and losing a pregnancy is universally tragic, and i think being pregnant and losing a baby that you desperately want and then being denied health care should be the crime, right? not being pregnant in america. please share your story. i have some notes here but i would love to hear it from you. >> yeah, thank you. so for having me. and like up, yes, it is universal. being pregnant with a baby that you want is something that is so exciting and so joyful. and the tragedy on top of losing that pregnancy has been really

hard. so to just give you a little brief synopsis of my story, in february of this year, my husband and i discovered that we were expecting our second child and we were so excited to give our son a little brother or sister. and we had decided to keep the sex a surprise until birth. because the due date was around halloween, we nicknamed the baby spooky because it was gender neutral and we're really excited to go on this next adventure and grow our family. at our 12-week ultra sound, which was supposed to be routine, i was pulled into the genetic counsellor's office after the ultra sound. during the ultrasound i saw a lot of fluid around the baby and in the baby. but i'm not a medical professional myself.

i just have veterinary background. i know what fluid looks like but i was hoping that i was not seeing what i was seeing. in the genetic counsellor's office, they told me that the baby had a collection of fluid behind its neck, and fluid under the skin known as edema. and that alone would probably end up causing me to miscarry and they were actually so surprised that i was pregnant, given the severity of what they were seeing on the ultrasound. they told me it was likely due to turner syndrome which is when a female fetus is missing one of the x chromosomes. they're supposed to have two. and the baby probably only had one. it's just something that happens at conception when the egg meets the sperm. it's really nothing that anyone can control. it's just a random event that

happened. not preventible. it's not passed down. but it is fatal in 99% of cases. i was told then that if i continued the pregnancy, i was not only likely to miscarry on my own, but i was at risk of developing a syndrome which means that i would start experiencing syndromes identical to my baby's, so i would have extreme swelling and possibly preeclamps preeclampsia. i would have life-threatening developments due to the pregnancy. i was told because i live in idaho, there is nothing they could do for me here. they were unable to terminate the pregnancy here in idaho, and they would be unable to refer me out of state for that procedure. so they told me, i was free to

explore health care options outside of the state of idaho, and that's all they can legally tell me. so i had to go home with that information and my husband and i had to call different clinics around the country. we tried, the closest ones to us first and reached out as much as we could and finally secured an appointment in portland, oregon, to terminate my pregnancy for the week following. so during that week, i did some additional testing through blood testing to see if we could confirm a diagnosis of turner syndrome. they sent me home with a miscarriage kit in case i miscarried on my own so i could do testing on the pregnancy tissue to confirm the diagnosis. and that was that. so we traveled to portland,

oregon, and had that procedure done, and i was able to get testing done on the fetal tissue and get a confirmed diagnosis of turner syndrome. >> i am so sorry for your loss of baby spooky. i am so sorry that when you get the worst news you can ever imagine, that you were sent home with a miscarriage kit, a diy for that part of the tragedy, and then you were left to your own devices to seek health care. you had this extraordinary description. that you were a health care refugee, forced to flee your home state for basic medical care. talk about that. >> yeah. it was a surreal experience, knowing that we needed the health care and had to flee our

state to get it. and i just remember feeling really scared and numb. i know when my husband and i were traveling, we drove to portland because flights were too expensive. we took the drive. it's about, gosh, four or five hours. i might be wrong. it might have been more. it was all a blur. i remember when we crossed the border from idaho into oregon, we both kind of had this really surreal, anxious energy about fleeing. and having to go. and it was almost like we felt like we were being watched, even though we knew we weren't. it just felt extremely invasive and it felt awful to have to leave our home and leave our son with his grandparents and, you

know, leave our family behind and our trusted medical care team that had seen us through our first pregnancy, and were now unable to see us through this second tragedy. it was hard to leave all of that behind and seek health care in a place where we didn't know anybody. we didn't know the clinic staff, and they were wonderful, and treated us with dignity and respect and love and care, but they were still strangers at the end of the day. so it would have been so much like, i don't know what the word would be, it would have been better to have gone through this tragedy at home rather than to have to leave the state to do it. >> mark, what does the lawsuit seek to do? if you prevail, how would it help jennifer? >> right. so imagine that you are someone who is going through one of the most traumatic experiences of

your life. you are, you have a very wanted pregnancy. you go and you're told that you're going to lose your pregnancy and not only that, but your life is in danger, and not only that, but i as a doctor have the tools, the training to actually provide you with the health care that can save your life, but not only that, my hands are tied and i can't provide you that health care so you're on your own. this is happening in, across the 14 states in which abortion is banned. and what we're trying to do with this lawsuit is, demonstrate that abortion is part of essential health care. it is part of health care that hospitals and physicians provide on a daily basis in what we're trying to achieve is clarity around the scope of these

conceptions. physicians are terrified. they're too afraid because there are criminal sanctions. they can lose their medical license if they provide abortion care and reliance on an exception and turn out to be wrong. so wire trying to obtain some clarity. what we're trying to achieve is that what happened to jen, what is happening to the other eight patient plaintiffs across the three actions that we filed yesterday, and the patients in the texas case we filed, that this doesn't happen again. >> jen, when you lose a baby that you desperately want, and even when you have all the diagnostic information that there was nothing you could have done, it's an extraordinary trauma. and i wonder how you're doing, talking about one of the hardest experiences in your life. >> i think in the aftermath, i got through it because i had to. now that i'm several months out

from it, it's almost harder to talk about it. my grief is catching up with me. my grief is catching up with my husband, too. our collective grief, as we inch closer to her due date which was verified to be on halloween. that gets harder and harder. i should be pregnant right now and we should be preparing for her birth. and for her to be here. it's extremely hard to talk about it but it is so necessary because i know that there are countless idahoans and countless people across the country that have been in similar situations that feel silenced for whatever reason they may be. and they don't have the capacity or the support that they need to go public with their stories. and so sharing my story has been

really, really powerful. it's been a way for me to connect with other families that have lost their babies tragically. and a way to honor our baby by talking about this stigmatized baby loss. terminating a very wanted pregnancy is a very niche and isolating experience for people who have experienced it. we feel like outsiders in some of the lost communities because we, quote, unquote, chose to end the pregnancy. so it can be hard for us to find communities. but that's what i found in sharing my story, and having others reach out about their experiences as well. so in a way, even though it's really hard and really emotional and like i said, it's been more

challenging the more i talk about it. it catches up with me and i find myself crying a lot more than i did in the beginning. but it's a way to honor our families and honor our babies. >> i think you are extraordinarily brave. i will take this with me every day. my grief is catching up with me, and i will be thinking about you on halloween. i wish you, jen, and your family, all the very best. i want you to know how much you're changing the conversation in the country. i think people who are opponents of women having access and agency over their families have no idea what you look like or sound like. they don't understand that what you did for spooky was the most compassionate thing that you've done and you did it because you're a mom and your husband did it because he's a dad. so you are changing things in this country for other women,

and changing the contours of the debate in the country. jennifer, thank you very much. thank you both for spending time with us. we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully. (ella) fashion moves fast. setting trends is our business. we need to scale with customer demand... ...in real time. (jen) so we partner with verizon to take our operations to the next level. (marquis) with a custom private 5g network. (ella) with verizon business, we get more control of production, efficiencies, and greater agility. (marquis) so our customers get what they want, when they want it. (jen) it's not just a network. it's enterprise intelligence. (vo) learn more. it's your vision,

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jennifer atkins, the lead plaintiff in the lawsuit seeking clarity on when doctors can intervene to care for their patients. joining me from georgetown law

school and author of policing the womb, invisible women, thank you for joining me. and erin haynes is here. i wondered out loud, what are we doing, people whose grief is catching up with them in their own words are under such duress and such concern for other women who might follow them in their grief that they have to do what jennifer just bravely did and i'm so grateful she did. how are we not doing more to protect women in this country? >> we've been here before and i think that's really important. the lesson is that this is perhaps a time in which we can judge just how horrific, how

inhumane, how inhuman the actions are today. let's face it. we've had salem witch trials. we've lynched women. we legalized in the united states marital rape. it was fine to beat your wife as long as the instrument you used was no wider than your thumb. it was perceived that over the decades, we had moved away from such horrors, writing rape into law through american slavery. it was understood that we had come into a better place and time. a place in which our constitution could be real for all persons and not just something that was mere words on paper only for men to be able to enjoy. what we've seen is a return to tendencies of the past. only, it makes these even worse because we should know and learn from those horrors of the past. and we have to hold individuals to account who are in state

legislatures who very well know that exactly the kinds of results we're seeing today were those that they have could anticipated by the laws they passed. >> jennifer's story is very inconvenient. the abortion bans, the eliminated exceptions in cases of rape and incest. 83% of all americans oppose those bans and the politics will catch up to them. this doesn't do anything to save or help the women who now can't receive some of the expert cancer care they need if they have potential cancers that are best treated in consultation with a gynecologist, or a surgeon. the ripple effects are things that we may not ever understand in terms of access to the kinds of life-saving health care a woman needs.

>> that's exactly right. it is such an important and powerful thing. no matter what happens, for productive access, jennifer and others like her, they are leaving behind a record of what this reality looks like and that is very important for us as we continue to understand the ramifications. what we do know, this was a nightmare to worry about what that reality would look like. we have now concrete evidence with jennifer. the experiences of what this is like. as she said, her due date is approaching, it's almost halloween. her grieving is catching up with her. she had a doctor who, in a

incredibly traumatic meeting, he said your only thing you can do is you're on your own to figure out what you can do. even if this was putting her own life in danger, she had to drive hours and hours away to another state, and she described it as fleeing, as she was trying to get health care. not only to get help for her baby but her own health. as we continue to hear these stories, we continue to understand this record even for people who maybe said they didn't necessarily understand the implications. the implications are undeniable for the women living this, even as people are trying to figure out a way forward now. that is cold comfort for someone like jennifer. these trying to make sure this doesn't happen to others in the

same situation as hers. >> and she's not being paranoid that as she left the state to get the health care that she and her baby needed, that someone was following her. this is being debated. this is an active proposal in the state of texas. if you drive across the border to receive health care, that you should be treated like a trafficker. this is where the debate on the right is. >> that is absolutely right. the use of criminal tools to threaten, pressure, coerce individuals beyond their human and constitutional rights. it has been clear in the united states for centuries that the right to be able to travel is something that is fundamental. what we see is the carving out and the destruction, the dismanning of constitutional rights, human rights as they apply to women and girls, such that women and girls now must live in terror and fear with regard to the people that they speak to. that's texas sb 8. the civil punishment of people

who aid and abet a person in terminating a pregnancy which means any 11, 12-year-old girl has to fear speaking to her mother, grandmother, aunt, anyone. to tell about a rape, to tell about a pregnancy. it means fear women have to cross state lines which is something we see is a ramifications of jim crow lines. if you're interracial, you can't go across state lines. otherwise this could be a criminal matter. it is horrific, whatter woo seeing. and this is why people are taking their concerns to the ballot box. it shouldn't have to be that. it shouldn't have to be that people now have to use the political process in order to reaffirm what should just be basic fundamental human rights to health care. which is the effort underlying the litigation now taking place by the center for reproductive rights. >> thank you so much for spending time with us on this important story.

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