but he's also saying things like a big part of the republican party is actively hostile to them and anti constitutional. mike pence is saying we could still fight for this. i think that's another reality check difference that's -- >> camilla, thank you very, much thanks for coming on the christmas show, we always like that. that is all in on this wednesday night. i'll stop here tonight, it starts now. starts now >> you don't have to do it i do, go and precise and control trump. if anyone wants to congresses and control trump? >> open invitation. >> or do anything, we can talk about anything. >> i want to, say romney, a reckoning, let's move some units for -- >> that excerpt? i just don't know being like, not only is the substance here, but this is really, really, really well done. >> just a class a reporter, an individual, revisiting our set. moment, not -- even a cone of silence. we will get him in a little

bit. >> we will, and there is a lot of that book that needs to be discussed. thank you, my friend, as always. >> thanks to you at home for joining me this hour. today, donald trump was rebuked by the one judge who he was helping hoping might give him a leg up. in a new decision, this afternoon, judge aileen cannon appears to have basically ignored one of the trump team's most recent requests in the entire classified documents case. last month, trump's lawyers asked judge cannon to allow mr. trump to view the classified documents that issue in his mar-a-lago club while he prepares for trial. that request was fairly outlandish, given the fact that the charges in that case all stemming from trump's decision to -- take classified documents to dialogue on the very first place. special counsel jack smith's team argue that those documents should be treated like all other highly classified top material, and that they should

only be able to view them in a sensitive facility, what is known as a scif. well today, judge cannon issued her decision on this matter, and it is important to note here that judge cannon did not specifically deny trump's request to look at classified documents at a florida beach club, but she did not granted either. this is from her decision. any classified information with the defense discusses what any classified information defense discusses with the defendant in any way, she will be handled in accordance with this order. including such requirements as confining all discussions, documents, and materials to an uncredited skiff or other authorized by the security officer in charge of classified material in this case. rough translation of that might be, unless a security official deems otherwise, that bathroom with the chandelier's not a secure place to look at classified iranian war plans.

the person the fact the judge cannon does not seem to be playing ball with trump's most bonkers request here, this decision also signals that the prosecution -- use in this case, including which of the classified documents they aim to use is evidence against donald trump. now, if you have been following this, case you know there has been a lot of scrutiny on judge cannon and her perceived sympathies towards donald trump, the man who appointed pin into the federal bench. while this decision made allay some of those concerns, the timing of the decision could be caused for new concern. the prosecution has been asking judge cannon to make a decision on what is classified materials and stream. judge cannon waited until now, mid september, to make that decision. which begs the question, why? do things just move really slowly down there, in the ?outhern district of florida or is it something else? is judge cannon slow walking this thing?

all this comes as we are learning more about the length that trump allegedly went to in order to hold on to those classified documents in the first place down at mar-a-lago. the new york times released new reporting this weekend about trump's alleged attempt to delete mar-a-lago security, footage and that alleged request reportedly set off a panic within the trump organization. the person in charge of i.t. down at mar-a-lago is this man, you sealed to maris. you may recall that mr. torres is now one of the witnesses for the prosecution. we know from the indictment that another trump employee named carlos d.i.o. lovera allegedly told mr. tavares repeatedly that the boss wanted security footage for from mar-a-lago deleted after the fbi requested that footage. the times reports on what happened next. so after returning from that office -- rounds of novar, when it happened according to people with knowledge of what took place.

within, days mr. to various relay the story to a superior in trump tower. one executive -- trump organization's director of security apparently became alarmed about -- calamari alerted the countries -- to deliver a storm warning not to delete anything. so trump demands that the security footage be deleted. you see old tavares, the i.t. guy, it's reluctant to do it, and he runs that request up the chain. and the trump organization lawyers benefit to flee say absolutely not do not do that, no way. we know that some point after that, another trump employee drains the pulitzer mar-a-lago and just happens to flood the room where all that security footage is being kept. mar-a-lago is not a nuanced or particularly complex indictment here.

but will any of that actually matter at the rate that judge cannon is allowing this case to proceed? >> joining me now are media rocha, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, now they're just returning for westchester county. and mark zaid, an attorney specializing in cases involving national security. me and mark, thank you for being here, i, mean, i would love to know, what would account for a judge, you know, receiving this request from the government, in june, and waiting until september to make a decision on it? >> look, judges often do not move at the pace that we as litigators would want them to. i mean, i have been frustrated by a pace of a judges decision making more times than i can count. i am hesitant to describe ill motive to this judge for that, regularly since, look, she made substantively the common sense,

you know, ruling here, that one would have expected given the circumstances. that said, should she have taken into account the fact in, you know, how long it took her to rule on this, that this is a matter of the greatest public interest that could possibly exist as many of the other judges do, as the 11th circuit seems to be doing. and approach it with that urgency. i am not going to ascribe to her a deliberate play. but it would be nice to see every judge who is involved in any case involving trump to understand that we need to have some more clarity, we need to have a resolution before the election. no matter what political party you are from. no matter who you plan to vote for. >> yeah, it is complicated by the fact that one party in this does not think we need to have resolution before the election. in fact, that may be his primary legal defense strategy. but yes, to your point, when you see tanya chutkan, another federal judge, when you see non

federal judges, you know, judge back with down in georgia, judge steve jones there, the 11th circuit. they are all moving with alacrity, it does make the layman, me being the layman, scratch my head and, say what is going on here? mark, when we talk about the decision that judge cannon made here. how much room is there for trump to appeal this? or to otherwise further slowdown the discovery process? >> so very different things, appeal this, not really. the fact is, this is a very routine productive order that has been put in place. there was nothing in this order that was unusual in anyway. it was a bad day for donald trump, because he didn't get what he had asked for. so in that sense, i guess one can say it was a victory for the prosecution. but it was standardized, most of those provisions i never would have thought about in one

of my cases because i would've expected it to be that way. now, whether he can slow the process down by way of discovery, yes, and that is a concern with respect to the pace of this court. i agree with me wholeheartedly, i cannot describe any malicious motive to judge cannon at this point, or perhaps at any point. but there is so much discretionary power in a federal judge or any judge quite frankly to govern the rules in their courtroom, particularly pace. and this type of case, an espionage act case, is very much decided through the pretrial notion process. this is not going to be a case where there is going to be a surprised if we go to trial. that trial, i can tell you what will happen. he will be convicted. but, i don't know what will happen in many of the free trial classified information

procedure act cepa motions that he might try and bring. that could throw a monkey wrench, especially in the process where there could be appeals up to the 11th circuit that would delay the actual handling or current of the criminal case, the trial itself. >> mark, can i follow up on that? if trump challenges the classification of something, is that judge, i assume that goes to judge cannon, but there is also classified security officer that is making some of these calls. right? >>, not the subsistent calls, the security officers just handling the procedural aspects of it to make sure there is an integrity of protecting the information. so yes, there was a footnote in order. there was very broad stuff as to what classified information is. but it has to be a clear delineation of declassification which is somewhat, even though standard, somewhat of a shock across trumps -- that he could bring motions to challenge classification. but historically, in classified

information cases, and espionage act, mishandling cases. it is almost impossible to challenge the classification status of the document. now, he could argue i, the president, declassified some of the documents. but he is going to have to show out right proof, not just oh i did it, nobody memorialized in writing. he is going to have to have witnesses say, yeah, he did it, the security officers maybe failed in their job but i know the white house security officers. their careers and that would be very unlikely. >> this means now, mimi, that -- gonna have access to some of this classified information, is that right? >> the ones who have the clearance. >> can you talk about how, so, right now, as it stands, assuming there are no further appeals, which is a big assumption, trump and his lawyers will have to be in a scif, a sensitive compartmentalized information

facility, am i getting it right? in order to look at anything classified. is that right? >> that is absolutely correct. >> and if you would, just walk us through sort of what that process is like, the discovery process, but we are on the verge of actually entering into. >> any discovery process, even when you take the scif out of it, is time consuming. and tedious. i mean, you want someone, i doubt it would be trump himself, but lawyers to go through every document. meticulously. you add the scif into that. and it's particularly labourious. but necessary, and something that people charged with these kinds of crimes and much less significant crimes have to deal with every day. clean leave your phone outside, there is all sorts of requirements, it's a windowless room, sound proof. it is not a pleasant place to be.

and yet, prosecutors, agents, defense attorneys. >> presidential candidates. >> spend hours in their. and it is just a necessity to protect the kind of information that is at issue in this case. and why is that issue? it is an issue, because trump had the documents. so, you know, it's a little complaining about a situation that he created. >> it's bears mentioning that he is going to run, he is running for president, right? and just to put it in the starkest terms possible, if he is trying to talk about specific documents with his lawyers regarding his defense, or a child that is supposed to certain may, he physically needs to be in a secure facility in order to do that. presumably they are not dotted all over the campaign trail in iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, et cetera. so that is going to add further, shall we say, a challenge, to making this happen. would you say that's a fair assessment? >> yes, it is, that to me is, you know, again, there may be delays, there may be proper delays and improper delays, we will see. much the heart of her ruling,

you know, it's substantively correct, but it does create a new series of, not unexpected, not unreasonable, but of issues that will make this, yes, harder for them to deal with. them being trump and his team. >> sorry, mark, just set expectations here. the trial is set for may. is that a reasonable, should we assume something is actually going to happen at that point? >> certainly it's possible. i mean, there are a number of motions that trump can potentially bring, particularly regarding whether hit a classified information, or if he wants to push for additional access to information or his lawyers in particular. now, there was another provision in the protective order that was issued. but i think it's very important. it talks about how just because information, i am paraphrasing, obviously. just because information that he knows to be classified is out there publicly in the new

york times, it's been talked about on this program, that does not declassify the information. now, that is a standardized provision. we deal with that constantly in lawsuits that i handle. and we have to specifically show that the information has been declassified by the entity, the agency or person who had authority over it. and that, means because trump has said a bunch of times on his campaign trail in the last few months after this investigation started, wait a minute, this information is in this newspaper, that newspaper, this network, he can't do that. that is not gonna fly. and hopefully his lawyers will make that very clear to him. because he is on very dangerous ground with that. >> hopefully someone somewhere or something will make that clear to him, miracle and mark -- to get experts on this, thank you for your time tonight. we have a lot more this evening, including a shock announcement from senator mitt romney. and what it means for the

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there are lots of developments out of georgia today, where donald trump and 18 other codefendants are being accused of going being part of a criminal enterprise to overturn the 2020 presidential election in that state. to codefendants, ken chesebro and sidney powell have already requested a speedy trial. and that request has been granted. their trial is set to begin on october 23rd. but the other defendants, including former president trump, do not want to move that fast. last, night soon after d.a. fani willis filed a motion saying all of the defendants should be tried together because the same evidence and the same witnesses are being used against that all of them, after, that last night, donald trump filed a motion of waiving his right to a speedy trial. in exchange, he is asking to be tried separately from the other defendants. now, this doesn't necessarily mean that trump is merely looking to separate his trial from everyone else. they could suggest that trump is attempting to avoid a speedy

trial at all costs. at least five other codefendants filed similar motions today, with many of them saying they also won't be ready to go to trial by october 23rd. and all of this is turning into a kind of logistical nightmare. the very kind of out of prosecutors used we like to avoid. now, as for the central -- along trump go to jail on october 23rd? the final word on that rests with the judge. scott mcafee who is expected to make a decision very soon, perhaps as early as tomorrow. for me now, chris timmins. he is a former deputy chief assistant district attorney who has tried r.i.c.o. cases in both -- county. chris, thanks for being here to enlighten me as to what we should -- setting our expectations, how to do. it judge mcvie, how what is your expectation about this case? and 19 codefendants going to trial together? >> so, there is some tension here, alex. one of the things that i don't

think a lot of people were talking, about but they need to keep in mind, is that this is an active courtroom. so he is probably got between 500,000 cases that are pending. besides this very major case. this is one of these cases will be people currently in custody. they are trying to get divorces. and so if this courtroom is tied up for two years as opposed to one year, that's gonna cause a major backlog. plus the tension on the one side. which is the tension that says, let's try everybody together starting on october 23rd. the other tension is in effect, assistive council, which is a standard here in georgia as it is nationwide. and that is that if you have attorneys who are not properly appeared for trial, that is an issue and can get the case -- you don't want to be the judge who gets her first in one of the most high-profile cases in history. those are really the two things that we are worrying about. the final thing that is kind of an issue, what is going on in federal court. meadows, i understand we have what some orders the content from the 11th circuit today, setting up a briefing schedule. blasting in the world you want

to do is have a jury picked, have issued, joint in jeopardy, -- double jeopardy. purposes and then have the case rebuked to federal court which it could cause a double jeopardy issue. all those things are in, play all those things such as my caveats after biden will be talking about as the case moves forward. >> okay, so, reading before the lines, here i am hearing but there is a risk to moving the trial date, giving everyone an october 23rd trial date because their lawyers may not be prepared, and there is all kinds of judicial peril and having attorneys to end leaders say, for councils that can later claim where -- canceled wasn't prepared. and secondly, in terms of the most, request we are talking about removal to federal court. judge maccabee is brought that up. saying there is this hold attempt to remove the federal court, how is that going to interact with everything we are doing here in state court? the fact is, the 11th circuit seems to be moving pretty fast on all that, doesn't it? is it your sense that we'll have the whole question about whether any of these defendants can move to federal court and get a georgia state court, that

is gonna be resolved relatively soon? >> yeah, looks like. it probably by mid september. or late september. -- moving lightning fast, i haven't seen the 11 surrogate move that fast before in any of the cases i handle with. you know, we are in unusual circumstances. i think probably the hundred or so -- uncharted waters. and -- judge mcafee, whether or not to proceed forward. i think they are ultimately gonna decide who if -- i don't expect mr. meadows to get the ruling against him overturned. so the question is, okay, we are at sometime affiliate, we've got a ruling maybe by october 1st. by the 11th circuit. are those, you, know 22 days, enough time, everyone should know this is coming. but one other thing that you should consider, alex, is, that

you know, they have got time during jury selection, jury selection is gonna take forever to the extent that there is extensive discovery. they can be formulating a plan as to how they wish they to defend this case even while they are questioning the jurors and going through the discovery process. >> just one more for you, chris, in terms of the 19. when do we find out if anyone has flipped? at what point, the flipping, if it is happening, it is happening now, is that right? >> it should be, yeah, i mean, i am sure there are discussions that are going on behind the scenes to flip folks. usually, alex, what you want to, do you are looking at an indictment, regularly in georgia, that's the least important members of a criminal conspiracy are the names towards the end. and so what you typically want to do when you are flipping people, and i flipped people all the time, when i was a prosecutor. we start from the bottom, and you work your way up like a carpet. and so you work your way to the top. you very rarely want to flip someone towards the top. the interesting one, kind of the wild card here? if i was a prosecutor? i would be looking at trying to

flip mark meadows, because i think if anyone knows whether donald trump had said something along the lines of, hey, i know there wasn't voter fraud in georgia but i need to pursue this anyways, the person who probably would know that would be mark meadows. he had been a lot of the meetings where that possibly could have come up. so that is the person that i would be targeting if it were my case. but they may already have that evidence. they may be getting that from someone else. but that is the wildcard in this case. that is the thing that the state really needs to prove. that donald trump knew, on some level, that there was not voter fraud involved in georgia. that it was a clean election. >> yes, well right now mark meadows really like to not have to go to court in georgia state court, so we will see how that all of that. a lot of information on the subject that is complicated, like an elaborately woven carpet. a carpet filled with people ready to flip and all kinds of legal pretrial motions. thank you for joining me tonight, chris, appreciate it. >> sure, appreciate the opportunity for the image, yeah. >> you are so welcome. we have lots more this evening,

including the evidence behind the republican push to impeach biden, or the lack thereof. congressman jamie raskin joins me on all of that. but first, a tea party insurgent is now being threatened with a maga primary. how that happened, and what it all means for the gop, that is next. that is next rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. ( ♪♪ ) the first fda-approved rsv vaccine. arexvy is used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv and over 94% effective in those with these health conditions.

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talks about policy. and evan issues that will make a difference to the lives of the american people. the trump wing of the party talks about resentment, getting even. >> that was utah senator and former republican presidential candidate mitt romney talking to the press for the first time since he announced this afternoon that he will not be seeking reelection. and while the senator told the reporters in the room today that his reason for retiring was to make room for a younger generation of leaders, senator romney was a bit more candid elsewhere. for years now, romney has been meeting with journalist mckay coppins in secret, telling coffins how he really feels, for coppins upcoming biography, romney. a reckoning. today, the atlantic published the first excerpt from it. now, romney told -- earlier this year that he had decided not to seek reelection. and the decision was, in part,

because the man in romney's family had a history of sudden heart failures. romney wanted to spend more time with his family. but the other part of his decision seems to be based on a feeling that romney no longer fit in his own party. romney talks about how after he was the only republican to vote to convict trump in trump's first impeachment trial, after, that romney says he never felt comfortable at a republican caucus lunch again. romney explains how jarring it was to be booed by republicans in his home state at the utah republican party convention. and that if he was being honest with himself, there were moments up on that stage where he was afraid of them. it was utah, after all, and in utah, people carry guns. sit with that for a moment, the republican party has radicalized so much that its own 2012 candidates for president is physically afraid of the party's base.

that is where we are at. do you remember when congressman cam buck first entered the political scene in 2010? puck was a tea party back insurgent in colorado, and he strongly disagreed with the concept of separation of church and state, thought that homosexuality was a choice. when asked why voters should make him over his female primary planted in 2010, he answered, because i don't wear high heels. now, congressman budd maintains that all of the statements were somehow taken out of context, but even if we take him at his word on that -- the congressman is incredibly conservative on basically every other issue. he campaigns on being against critical race theory in schools, and he has an ar-15 style rifle on the wall of his congressional office in d.c.. he was one of only to congress people to vote against the march 2020 covid response bill. he told fox news he would not

get the covid vaccine because he is american. so can buck, not exactly a bleeding heart liberal. but now, this year, from the 23, cnn is reporting that the maga wing of the republican party wants to primary congressman ken buck. they don't think he is conservative enough. the maga wing of the party has been mad at congressman brock ever since he ultimately decided to vote to certify the results of the 2020 election on january 6th. but the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back appears to have been that congressman can bucked of not think it was right to open impeachment inquiry into president biden without any actual evidence. notice that i say didn't, past tense, because apparently yesterday, congressman budd changed his tune. he told nbc's -- -- betty nothings is a good idea for kevin mccarthy to launch an impeachment inquiry in the house. so maybe congressman book is maga enough to stay in the good

graces of the republican party? senator mitt romney, on the other hand, is out. never to return. we are going to talk to congressman jamie raskin, the lead impeachment manager in trump's second impeachment about this new republican boondoggle of an impeachment against president biden, and that is coming up next. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato without talking to your doctor. don't take dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. this can cause serious or life-threatening side effects. if you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away. serious or life-threatening lactic acid buildup and liver problems can occur. tell your doctor if you have kidney

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months that joe biden is guilty of any criminal wrongdoing, any high crime and misdemeanor. much less prostitution, bribery, money laundering, or any of the crimes that were set forth in that laundry list. >> that was congressman jamie raskin today during a hearing for the house oversight committee, responding to his republican colleagues in their latest attempt to justify an impeachment inquiry into president biden, despite the fact that that inquiry is based on accusations and hearsay and not actual evidence. now, the new york times has pretty helpfully unpack some of the claims speaker mccarthy made when he announced that impeachment inquiry, and here is one example. mr. mccarthy's claim, i was dismissive testified that the president joined on multiple phone calls and had multiple interactions, dinners, that resulted in cars, millions of dollars into his sons and his son's business partners. the facts, beyond mr. biden exchanging messages with the associates of his son, republicans have provided no

evidence that the, elder mr., biden was involved in lending that business or participated in it in any way. regarding a claim that bank records show nearly $20 million in payments to biden's family members and associates, the times points out that there is, quote, no evidence that any of the business relationships were illegal. joining me now is congressman jamie raskin, democrat of maryland, member of the house oversight committee and you did share a committee, and a key leader in trump's second impeachment, congressman raskin, thank you so much for being here. i find that the more you dig into these republican claims, the more it is evidence that there is no there there. should democrats are about to radically in some of the arguments, the specific arguments that republican are making as it comes to president biden? >> yeah, we need to rebut every single argument they're making, otherwise one of their claims will just get out of control. they will all rally around it

and then repeated 1 million times. but the bottom line is that we've been through seven months of hearings on this. and they essentially haven't laid a glove on joe biden. there is simply not a shred of evidence linking him to any criminal wrongdoing or any treason, bribery, or other high crime and misdemeanor. and all there is a bunch of rumors, innuendo, and of course, the country is about to get to complete seminar in evidence. and what is real, evidence and what is not evidence. and all that they have is a bunch of idle rumor and speculation at this point. >> and you think that needs to be answered? >> well, all of the evidence or the answers the witnesses day brought forward, a 12,000 pages worth of bank records, the documents, all of them contradict the factual claims

that they are making every day. in other words, we got all the evidence, and it completely demolishes the assertions that they're making about joe biden, but that is not going to allow them to stop them, why? it has nothing to do with factual evidence. it has to do the fact that donald trump wants them to proceed and is ordering them to do it. marjorie taylor greene had dinner with him a few nights ago and pledge to hint that there would be a long and agonizingly long difficult proceeding against joe biden. it's donald trump exacting revenge for an impeachment that he lost in the house of representatives because he incited a violent insurrection against the union. and then there was a 57 to 43 votes in the senate to convict him. he beat the constitutional spread by a little bit, by majorities seeking to convict him and establish it as a legislative fact that he did incite insurrection against our

government. >> yeah, being the impeachment expert, investigation expert that you are, i do wonder if you're concerned about the power that the impeachment inquiry and dose a sit on the inquisition, as it were, that they have enhanced subpoena power and all of this. what are democrats preparing for in terms of the information that republicans are going to see from the president and his family? >> well, they have essentially gotten all the evidence that they have sought to obtain so far. the claim of obstruction is ridiculous when the head of the oversight committee himself, james comer, is bragging about how he got 100% of everything he asked for. in that moment of boastfulness, he gave the game away. it's very clear that everything that they have been seeking they had, but it contradicts the claims that they want to be

making. remember, this is a bunch of people who cannot bring themselves to vote to impeach donald trump or to convict donald trump for inciting an insurrection against the union to overthrow a presidential election, when the evidence was overwhelming. now, there is basically no evidence of anything against joe biden even if they wanted to proceed and go ahead and impeach them. we are going to check them every stop, not going to allow them to get away with anything, as we did today, there was a hearing that they called about third party financing of litigation, and the corruption of the justice system. we turned it into a hearing about the corruption of the supreme court, by all of the billionaire sugar daddies that have adopted justice thomas, justice alito and so on, and spread millions of dollars around in the supreme court

with things like fancy, far flung international vacations, jet travel, trips on yachts, private school tuition, buying their families houses, buying private school tuition from members of their family. we will put them on trial. this is the only way that we can deal with the rule of ruin faction that has taken over the republican party, when kevin mccarthy capitulates to them at every turn. >> i see a strategy emerging here, pick their inquisition and turn it to your own. congressman jamie raskin, thank you as always for your time -- >> if i could say one thing -- >> go ahead. >> it is not an inquisition, it's like harry truman, he said i would not give them hell, i will just give them the facts. that is what we are about, putting the facts out there, as well as the law. the constitution requires high crime misdemeanor's, and they don't have evidence of that. >> despite them back with the truth. thank you so much, congressman.

when we come back, as mitt romney jump ship from the republican party, the gop de facto leader is relishing support from vladimir putin. where to go from there. new york times michelle goldberg reads the roadmap with me coming up next. me coming up next. (♪♪) rsv can be a dangerous virus... [sneeze] ...for those 60 and older. it's not just a cold. and if you're 60 or older...

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admiration society is alive and well. first, the russian president called trump's criminal indictments symbol of the rawness of the american political system and added that everything happening with trump is the persecution of a political rival from a political reason. alexei navalny, cough cough, and then, trump won after social and used words to attack joe biden. while he was doing, that it was given a tour of a russian space center to north korean kim

jong-un. the u.s. says that the two governments are actively advancing a potential arms deal. that is who the republican presidential front runner is citing for political gain, a guy currently considering exchanging ballistic missile technology with kim jong-un and exchange for weapons to use against ukraine. and as many republican moderates like mitt romney decide to jump ship, the rest of the gop is increasingly coalescing behind the same guy that vladimir putin's other defending. >> there is no question that the republican party of today's in the shadow of donald trump. he is the leader of the greatest portion of the republican party. it's a populace of the party. >> joining me now is michelle goldberg, opinion columnist for the new york times. michelle, what does it mean the g -- mitt romney and the gop, the ex communicate mitt romney? >> to me, i don't think that mitt romney was ex communicated. it does not look like he would lose a primary. he's quite popular in utah.

i think what it means is that mitt romney has given up on the republican party. even mitt romney, at every stage of the trump administration was sure that there was some kind of alternative, some type of bubble gum to pop, that there was the possibility of a patriotic republican party has basically seen the writing on the wall and said that he can't do it anymore. >> a man without a country. my question is, is he so disheartened, disaffected with the republican party, why not be more clear about what is happening inside it? in this book that is forthcoming, romney, a reckoning, he tells mckay kopplin what he really thinks. he effectively gossips, if you will, about the ways in which other senior republicans, including mitch mcconnell understand trump to be a pox on the party, and yet in his big announcement that he's leaving, you're not hearing any of that. why have the indignation if you

keep it yourself? >> although, he's not keeping it to himself. >> it will be on sale. >> he knows that this is obviously going into this book, although i think that i think is so interesting is that he talks in the excerpt to the atlantic about the social pressures that when you are a republican, even if you are going to be an anti trump republican, there are social pressures to tow the line. he talks about how relieved his staff was when they thought that he might actually vote to acquit donald trump during the first impeachment. he even talked about how awkward is to sit at lunches with these people who are behaving in such a lavish and craven manner. i think that there is a level in which when they are in the tenth, they try to stay with someone and good graces, and once they give up on it, you see a lot of anti trump ex republicans. >> i do wonder when you have

somebody like tommy tuberville in the senate, it's clear he's not staying in line. and the senate is increasingly devolving into the same chaos as the house, but it's clear that much because no it's not running to touch up any more. look at what tuberville is doing, completely ads with his party on key issues, so why not? >> he's not completely out of the party. he's at odds with senate leadership, perhaps. >> he's going after the defense industrial complex is largely at odds with what republicans want. >> it's what republicans traditionally have wanted, but there is a part of the republican party that is becoming so radicalize, not just about democrats, but has really become so pessimistic about america that they no longer see the military as something worthy of their respect. they no longer see the defense

industry is something worthy of their respect. not because they are the offended by americas forever war, not because they are offended by the port that keeps the defense industry afloat, but because they think the military is quote unquote, woke. and that sense, it's very much right. he is part of the zeitgeist. >> maga denialism that is a common thread with then the gop. with josh hawley, j.d. vance and some theory, tommy tuberville, if they are not ideologically odds, they have shown and the senate that you could be individual and set your self apart from the crowd. one wonders, could probably not use the waning days to make more of a publicly principled stance? >> he will. yes, he will be in the senate for a couple of more years. >> to -- >> we'll see kind of now that he has nothing left to lose, we'll see what he does. but i just think it goes to show that there is no more

decent faction of the republican party. we used to kind of wonder about the trump administration, why aren't the republican speaking up? how do they live with themselves? when it is kind of the things that they say are behind closed doors breaking out into the open? i think that romney has come to is never. >> in the meantime, trump, putin, kim jong-un and also elon musk. it's like a dc comics battey concave. >> people think they are sick of talking about russia because the republicans have played a sort of two tissue that they won about is so much to make it seem as if trump did not actually seek and receive russian help in the last election. but just imagine the scope of russian meddling in this election and the degree to which there will be no backlash from it on the republican party. >> pushback embrace. >> yeah, absolutely. >> this is where we live and are at right now, september 2023. michelle goldberg, thank you as always. i can't wait to read your next

column maybe on romney. that is our show this evening, and now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, we will soon have a law professor bradley moss join us in the second have to talk about another frame of vladimir putin and donald trump, as it turns out. the professor is back from ukraine, he is much to say. >> he is such a eloquent and very wise thinker on all of these things. i am excited to see that one. >> yeah, it's one of those things where it took the war in ukraine, for me, to discover him a someone who belongs in the dialogue on this show, and for that, i am internally embarrassed, but glad that we do now have him on the show. >> yes, no need to be embarrassed to have him on the show, that is a gift to all of us. thank you, lawrence. >> thanks, alex. thank you. >> have a good show. >> tonight, we have news in