i wasn't eating rice maroney or on a cable car. what's the big deal? >> -- >> san fran -- >> -- they really will be upset when you say sam fran -- >> -- says that. >> if you are -- a you could maybe get away with saying or sf something. but, for the most part, you would never cut manhattan to a nickname. nobody is doing that. you know what i'm saying? >> you know why? you know why? >> it's an important place. >> -- >> it's manhattan. >> respectable city that deserves respect -- we here in san francisco also like to consider this a respectable. city the city has got its problems, got its problems. but this is a port city that has transformed itself many times, arrived one of the biggest earthquakes to ever hit a major city. this place has been through a lot. it is a fantastic place. and i invite you, stephanie,

they say its name. >> for that, it deserves all the letters to be pronounced every time. jake ward, thank you. jake ward's mom debbie is here -- live studio audience, in san francisco. and for you at home, i wish you a very good. night for all our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me. i will see you again tomorrow. >> today, donald trump was rebuked by the one judge who he was hoping might give him a leg up. in a new decision, this afternoon, judge aileen cannon appears to have basically ignored one of the trump team's most recent requests in the entire classified documents case. last month, trump's lawyers asked judge cannon to allow mr. trump to view the classified documents that issue in his mar-a-lago club while he prepares for trial. that request was fairly outlandish, given the fact that the charges in that case all

stemming from trump's decision to -- take classified documents to mar-a-lago in the very first play. special counsel jack smith team argue that those document should be treated like all other highly classified top material, and that they should only be able to view them in a sensitive facility, what is known as a scif. well, today, judge cannon issued -- judge cannon did not specifically deny trump request to look at classified documents at a florida beach club, but she did not granted grant it either. this is from her decision. any classified information with the defense discusses what any classified information defense discusses with the defendant in any way, she will shall be handled in accordance with this order. including such requirements as confining all discussions, documents, and materials to an accredited skis scif --

in this case. a. rough translation of that might be, unless a security official deems otherwise, that bathroom with the chandelier's is not a secure place to look at classified iranian war plans. so, apart from the fact that judge cannon does not seem to be playing ball with trump's most bonkers request here, this decision also signals that the prosecution -- and finally begin laying out the evidence they would like to use in this case, including which of the classified documents they aim to use as evidence against donald trump. now, if you have been following this case, you know there has been a lot of scrutiny on judge cannon and her perceived sympathies towards donald trump, the man who appointed cannon to the federal bench. while this decision made allay some of those concerns, the timing of the decision could be cause for new concern. the prosecution has been asking judge cannon to make a decision on what is classified material

since june. but judge cannon waited until now, mid september, to make that decision. which begs the question, why? do things just move really slowly down there, in the southern district of florida? or is it something else? is judge cannon slow walking this thing? all this comes as we are learning more about the length lengths that trump allegedly went to in order to hold on to those classified documents in the first place down at mar-a-lago. the new york times released new reporting this weekend about trump's alleged attempt to delete mar-a-lago security footage. and that alleged request reportedly set off a panic within the trump organization. the person in charge of i.t. down at mar-a-lago is this man, you seal tavares. you may recall that mr. tavares's will now one of the witnesses for the prosecution. we know from the indictment that another trump employee, named carlos de oliveira, allegedly told mr. tavares repeatedly that the boss wanted

security footage from mar-a-lago deleted after the fbi requested that footage. and the times reports on what happened next. soon after returning to his office, mr. tavares confided in a colleague, renzo navarre, what had happened according to people with knowledge of what took place. within days, mr. tavares relayed the story to a sapir in trump -- matthew calamari junior, the trump organization's corporate director of security apparently became alarmed a -- calamari alerted the company's legal department, prompting a senior lawyer at the company to deliver a stern warning not to delete anything. so, trump demands that the security footage be deleted. and yuscil taveras, the i.t. guy, is reluctant to do, it and he runs that request up the chain. and the trump organization lawyers then effectively say, absolutely not. do not do that. no way. we know that some point after that, another trump employee drains the pulitzer mar-a-lago

and just happens to flood the room where all that security footage is being kept. mar-a-lago is not a nuanced or particularly complex indictment here. but will any of that actually matter at the rate that judge cannon is allowing this case to proceed? >> joining me now are mimi rocah, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, now the district attorney for westchester county. and mark zaid, an attorney specializing in cases involving national security. mimi rocah and mark zaid, thank you for being here. i, mimi, would love to know, what would account for a judge, you know, receiving this request from the government, in june, and waiting until september to make a decision on. it >> look, judges often do not move at the pace that we as litigators would want them to.

i mean, i have been frustrated by a pace of a judges decision making more times than i can count. i am hesitant to ascribe ill motive to this judge for that, regularly since, look, she made substantively the common sense, you know, ruling here, that one would have expected given the circumstances. that said, should she have taken into account the fact in, you know, how long it took her to rule on this, that this is a matter of the greatest public interest that could possibly exist as many of the other judges do, as the 11th circuit seems to be doing. and approach it with that urgency. >> yes. >> i am not going to ascribe to her a deliberate play. delay. but it would be nice to see every judge who is involved in any case involving trump to understand that we need to have some more clarity, we need to have a resolution before the election. no matter what political party

you are from. no matter who you plan to vote for. >> yeah, it is complicated by the fact that one party in this does not think we need to have resolution before the election. in fact, that may be his primary legal defense strategy. but yes, to your point, when you see tanya chutkan, another federal judge, when you see non federal -- you know, judge mcafee down in georgia, a judge judge steve jones they, are the 11th circuit, all moving with alacrity, it does make a layman -- me being the layman -- scratch my head and say what is going on here. mark, when we talk about the decision that judge cannon made here, how much room is there for room trump to appeal this or otherwise slow down the discovery process? >> so, very different things. appeal this, not really. the fact is, this is a very routine productive order that has been put in place. there was nothing in this order that was unusual in and the

way. it was a bad day for donald trump, because he didn't get what he had asked for. so in that sense, i guess one can say it was a victory for the prosecution. but it was standardized, most of those provisions i never would have thought about in one of my cases because i would've expected it to be that way. now, whether he can slow the process down by way of discovery, yes, and that is a concern with respect to the pace of this court. i agree with mimi wholeheartedly. i cannot ascribe any malicious motive to judge cannon at this point, or perhaps at any point. but there is so much discretionary power in a federal judge or any judge, quite frankly, to govern the rules in their courtroom, particularly pace. and this type of case, an espionage act case, is very much decided through the

pretrial motion process. this is not going to be a case where there is going to be a surprise if he goes to trial. that trial, i can tell you what will happen. he will be convicted. but, i don't know what will happen in many of the pretrial classified information procedure act cepa motions that he might try and bring. that could throw a monkey wrench, especially in the process where there could be appeals up to the 11th circuit that would delay the actual handling or current of the criminal case, the trial itself. >> mark, can i follow up on that? if trump challenges the classification of something, is that judge, i assume that goes to judge cannon, but there is also classified security officer that is making some of these calls. right? >> not the substantive calls. the security officer is just handling the procedural aspects of it to make sure there is an integrity of protecting the information. yes, and there was a footnote

in the order. it was very broad as to what classified information is. but it has to be a clear delineation of declassification which is somewhat, even though standard, somewhat of a shot across trump's bow that he could bring motions to challenge classification. but historically, in classified information cases, and espionage act, mishandling cases, it is almost impossible to challenge the classification status of the document. now, he could argue, i, the president, declassified some of the documents. but he is going to have to show out right proof, not just, oh, i didn't, nobody memorialized it in writing. he is going to have to have witnesses say, yeah, he did it, the security officers maybe failed in their job but i know the white house security officers. they are careerists and that would be be very unlikely. >> this means now, mimi, that trump's lawyers, in theory, are going to have access to some of this classified information, is that right? >> the ones who have the

clearance. >> right. and it can you talk a little bit about -- so, right now, as it stands, assuming there are no further appeals, which is a big assumption, trump and his lawyers will have to be in a scif, a sensitive compartmentalized information facility, am i getting it right? in order to look at anything classified. is that right? >> that is absolutely correct. >> and if you would, just walk us through sort of what that process is like, the discovery process, that we are on the verge of actually entering into. >> any discovery process, even when you take the scif out of it, is time consuming. and tedious. i mean, you want someone, i doubt it would be trump himself -- but lawyers to go through every document. meticulously. you add the scif into that. and it's particularly labourious. but necessary, and something that people charged with these kinds of crimes and much less

significant crimes have to deal with every day. clean leave your phone outside, there is all sorts of requirements, it's a windowless room, sound proof. it is not a pleasant place to be. and yet, prosecutors, agents, defense attorneys. >> presidential candidates. >> spend hours in their. and it is just a necessity to protect the kind of information that is at issue in this case. and why is that issue? it is an issue, because trump had the documents. so, you know, it's a little complaining about a situation that he created. >> it's bears mentioning that he is going to run, he is running for president, right? and just to put it in the starkest terms possible, if he is trying to talk about specific documents with his lawyers regarding his defense, if a trial that is supposed to start in may, he physically needs to be in a secure facility in order to do that. presumably they are not dotted

all over the campaign trail in iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, et cetera. so, that is going to add further, shall we say, challenge, to making this happen. would you say that's a fair assessment? >> yes, it is. and that, to me -- again, there may be delays, there may be proper delays and improper delays, we will see. but the heart of her ruling is substantively correct. but it does create a new series of, not unexpected, not unreasonable, but of issues that will make this, yes, harder for them to deal with. them being trump and his team. >> sorry, mark, just set expectations here. the trial is set for may. is that a reasonable -- should we assume something is actually going to happen at that point? >> certainly, possibly. there are a number of motions that trump can potentially bring, particularly regarding whether he declassified information, or a fee wants to push for additional access to information or his lawyers in particular.

now, there was another provision in the protective order that was issued that, i think, is very important. it talks about how, just because information -- i will paraphrase, obviously, just because information that he knows to be classified is out there publicly in the new york times and has been talked about on this program, that does not declassify the information. now, that is a standardized provision and we deal with that constantly in lawsuits that i handle. and we have to specifically show that the information has been declassified by the entity, the agency, or person who had authority over it. and that means -- because trump has had a bunch of times on his campaign trail after this investigation started that, wait a minute, this information is in this newspaper, that newspaper, or this network, and he can't do that. that is not going to fly. and hopefully, his lawyers will make that very clear to him,

because it's on very dangerous ground with. that >> so, hopefully someone, somewhere, or something will make that clear to him. mimi rocah and mark zaid, two great experts on all this. thank you for your time tonight. we have a lot more this evening, including a shock announcement from senator mitt romney, and what it means for the future of the republican party. but first, we are going down to georgia, as a judge weighs whether trump should go to trial in less than six weeks. six weeks as in six actual weeks. the latest on all of that is next. a bend with a bump in your erection might be painful, embarassing, difficult to talk about, and could be peyronie's disease or pd, a real medical condition that urologists can diagnose

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to codefendants, ken chesebro and sidney powell have already requested a speedy trial. and that request has been granted. their trial is set to begin on october 23rd. but the other defendants, including former president trump, do not want to move that fast. last night, soon after da fani willis filed a motion saying all of the defendants should be tried together because the same evidence and the same witnesses are being used against that all of them, after that, last night donald trump filed a motion of waiving his right to a speedy trial. in exchange, he is asking to be tried separately from the other defendants. now, this doesn't necessarily mean that trump is merely looking to separate his trial from everyone else is. it could suggest that trump is attempting to avoid a speedy trial at all costs. at least five other codefendants filed similar motions today, with many of them saying they also won't be ready to go to trial by october 23rd. and all of this is turning into a kind of logistical nightmare.

the very kind of out of prosecutors usually like to avoid. now, as for the central -- question here. will donald trump go to trial on october 23rd? the final word on that rests with the judge. scott mcafee who is expected to make a decision very soon, perhaps as early as tomorrow. joining me now is chris timmins, former deputy chief assistant district attorney who has tried r. i. c. o. cases in both the cab and cobb county. chris, thanks for being here to enlighten me as to what we should -- setting our expectations, how to do. judge mcafee, what is your expectation about this case? and 19 codefendants going to trial together? >> so, there is some tension here, alex. one of the things that i don't think a lot of people were talking about, but that they need to keep in mind, is that this is an active courtroom. so he is probably got between 500,000 cases that are pending. besides this very major case. among those cases are people who are currently in custody. they are trying to get

divorces. and so if this courtroom is tied up for two years as opposed to one year, that's gonna cause a major backlog. that's the tension on the one side, which is the tension that says, let's try everybody together starting on october 23rd. the other tension is in effect of assistance of counsel, which is a standard here in georgia as it is nationwide. and that is that if you have attorneys who are not properly appeared for trial, that is an appellate issue and can get the case -- reversed. so, you certainly don't want to be the job who gets reversed in one of the most high-profile cases in history. those are really the two things that we are worrying about. the final thing that is kind of an issue, what is going on in federal court. with meadows, i understand we have what some orders the content from the 11th circuit today, setting up a briefing schedule. the last thing in the world you want to do is have a jury picked, which -- double jeopardy purposes and have the case removed to federal court, which could cause a double jeopardy issue. all those things are in, play all those things are things

judge mcafee has asked about and we will be talking about as the case moves forward. >> okay, so, reading before the lines, here i am hearing but there is a risk to moving the trial date, giving everyone an october 23rd trial date because their lawyers may not be prepared, and there is all kinds of judicial peril and having attorneys to end leaders say, for councils that can later claim where -- council wasn't prepared. and secondly, in terms of the meadows request, we are talking about removal to federal court. judge mcafee has brought this up, saying there is this hold attempt to remove the federal court, how is that going to intersect with everything we are doing here in state court? the fact is, the 11th circuit seems to be moving pretty fast on all that, doesn't it? is it your sense that we'll have the whole question about whether any of these defendants can move to federal court and get out of georgia state court, that is going to be resolved relatively soon? >> yeah, looks like. it probably by mid september. or late september. anyway, i think the last eight on the scheduling orders the 28. but, yeah, it's moving lightning fast. i haven't seen the 11 surrogate

circuit move that fast before in any of the cases i handle with. you know, we are in unusual circumstances. i think probably the hundred or so -- folk correspondents and contributors that have talked about this case have said the same thing about this case over and over again. we are in uncharted waters. and -- so i think the 11th circuit wants to give some direction too judge mcafee, whether or not to proceed forward. i think they are ultimately going to decide side with judge jones from the district court. i don't expect mr. meadows to get the ruling against him overturned. the question then is, okay, we are at september 28, we've got a ruling maybe by october 1st. by the 11th circuit. are those 22 days enough time to let everyone know this is coming. but one other thing that you should consider, alex, is, that you know, they have got time during jury selection, the jury selection is gonna take forever to the extent that there is extensive discovery, they can be formulating a plan as to how they wish they to defend this case even while they are questioning the jurors and going through the voir dire

process. >> just one more for, you chris, in terms of the 19, when do we find out if anyone has flipped? at what point, the flipping, if it is happening, it is happening now, is that right? >> it should be, yeah, i mean, i am sure there are discussions that are going on behind the scenes to flip folks. usually, alex, what you want to, do you are looking at an indictment, particularly in georgia, that's the least important members of a criminal conspiracy are the names towards the end. and so what you typically want to do when you are flipping people, and i flipped people all the time, when i was a prosecutor. you start from the bottom, and you work your way up like a carpet. and so you work your way to the top. you very rarely want to flip someone towards the top. the interesting one, kind of the wild card here? if i was a prosecutor? i would be looking at trying to flip mark meadows, because i think if anyone knows whether donald trump had said something along the lines of, hey, i know there wasn't voter fraud in georgia but i need to pursue this anyway, the person who probably would know that would be mark meadows. he would have been of a lot of those meetings where that

possibly could have come up. so that is the person that i would be targeting if it were my case. but they may already have that evidence. they may be getting that from someone else. but that is the wildcard in this case. that is the thing that the state really needs to prove. that donald trump knew, on some level, that there was not voter fraud involved in georgia. that it was a clean election. >> yes, well right now mark meadows really like to not have to go to court in georgia state court, so we will see how that all of that. chris timmins, a lot of information on subject that is complicated, like an elaborately woven carpet. a carpet filled with people ready to flip and all kinds of legal pretrial motions. thank you for joining me tonight, chris, appreciate it. >> sure, appreciate the opportunity for the imagery. -- >> you are so welcome. we have lots more this evening, including the evidence behind the republican push to impeach biden, or the lack thereof. congressman jamie raskin joins me on all of that. but first, a tea party insurgent is now being threatened with a maga primary. how that happened, and what it

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yeah... ♪ talks about policy and about issues that will make a difference in the lives of the american people. the trump wing of the party talks about resentments a various kind, and getting even. >> that was utah senator and former republican presidential candidate mitt romney talking to the press for the first time since he announced this

afternoon that he will not be seeking reelection. and while the senator told the reporters in the room today that his reason for retiring was to make room for a younger generation of leaders, senator romney was a bit more candid elsewhere. for years now, romney has been meeting with journalist mckay coppins in secret, telling coppins how he really feels, for coppins è upcoming biography, romney, a reckoning. today, the atlantic published the first excerpt from it. now, romney told coppins earlier this year that he had decided not to seek reelection. and the decision was, in part, because the men in romney's family had a history of sudden heart failure. romney wanted to spend more time with his family. but the other part of his decision seems to be based on a feeling that romney no longer fit in his own party. romney talks about how after he was the only republican to vote to convict trump in trump's first impeachment trial, after that, romney says he never felt comfortable at a republican

caucus lunch again. romney explains how jarring it was to be booed by republicans in his home state at the utah republican party convention. and that if he was being honest with himself, there were moments up on that stage where he was afraid of them. it was utah, after all, and in utah, people carry guns. sit with that for a moment, the republican party has radicalized so much that its own 2012 candidate for president is physically afraid of the party's base. that is where we are at. do you remember when congressman ken buck first entered the political scene in 2010? buck was a tea party back insurgent in colorado, and he strongly disagreed with the concept of separation of church and state, thought that homosexuality was a choice. when asked why voters should pick him over his female

primary opponent in 2010, buck answered, because i don't wear high heels. now, congressman buck maintains that all of the statements were somehow taken out of context, but even if we take him at his word on that -- congressman ken buck is basically conservative on every other issue. he campaigns on being against critical race theory in schools, and he has an ar-15 style rifle on the wall of his congressional office in d.c.. he was one of only two congress people to vote against the march 2020 covid response bill. buck told fox news he would not get the covid vaccine because he is american. so ken buck, not exactly a bleeding heart liberal. but now this year, from the 23, cnn is reporting that the maga wing of the republican party wants to primary congressman ken buck. they don't think he is conservative enough. the maga wing of the party has been mad at congressman buck ever since he ultimately decided to vote to certify the results of the 2020 election on

january 6th. but the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back appears to have been that congressman ken buck did not think it was right to open an impeachment inquiry into president biden without any actual evidence. notice that i say didn't, past tense, because apparently yesterday, congressman buck changed his tune. he told nbc's soil kapoor that he now thinks it's a good idea for kevin mccarthy to launch an impeachment inquiry in the house. so maybe congressman block is -- megan off to stay in the good graces of the republican party? senator mitt romney on the other hand is out, never to return. we are going to talk to congressman jamie raskin, the lead impeachment manager in trump's second impeachment, about this new republican boondoggle of an impeachment against president biden. and that is coming up next. is coming up next bring it to safelite. we do more replacements and recalibrations than anyone else.

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president biden, despite the fact that that inquiry is based on accusations and hearsay and not actual evidence. now, the new york times has pretty helpfully unpacked some of the claims speaker mccarthy made when he announced that impeachment inquiry, and here is one example. mr. mccarthy's claim, i was eyewitnesses have testified that the president joined on multiple phone calls and had multiple interactions, dinners, that resulted in cars, millions of dollars into his son's and his son's business partners. the facts, beyond mr. biden exchanging niceities with the associates of his son, republicans have provided no evidence that the elder mr. biden was involved in landing that business or participated in it in any way. regarding a claim that bank records show nearly $20 million in payments to biden's family members and associates, the times points out that there is, quote, no evidence that any of the business relationships were illegal. joining me now is congressman jamie raskin, democrat of maryland, member of the house

oversight committee and judicary committee, and a key leader in trump's second impeachment, congressman raskin, thank you so much for being here. i find that the more you dig into these republican claims, the more it is evidence that there is no there there. should democrats rebuto directly some of the arguments, the specific arguments, that republican are making as it comes to president biden? >> yeah, we need to rebut every single argument they're making, otherwise one of their claims will just get out of control. they will all rally around it and then repeat it 1 million times. but the bottom line is that we've been through seven months of hearings on this. and they essentially haven't laid a glove on joe biden. there is simply not a shred of evidence linking him to any criminal wrongdoing or any treason, bribery, or other high crime and misdemeanor. and all there is a bunch of

rumors, innuendo, and of course, the country is about to get a complete seminar in evidence. and what is real evidence and what is not evidence. and all that they have is a bunch of idle rumor and speculation at this point. >> and you think that needs to be answered? >> well, all of the evidence really answers the witnesses day brought forward, a 12,000 pages worth of bank records, the documents, all of them contradict the factual claims that they are making every day. in other words, we've got all the evidence, and it completely demolishes the assertions that they're making about joe biden. but that is not going to allow them to stop them, why? it has nothing to do with factual evidence. it has to do the fact that donald trump wants them to proceed and is ordering them to do it. marjorie taylor greene had dinner with him a few nights ago and pledge to hint that

there would be a long and agonizingly long difficult proceeding against joe biden. it's donald trump exacting revenge for an impeachment that he lost in the house of representatives because he incited a violent insurrection against the union. and then there was a 57 to 43 votes in the senate to convict him. he beat the constitutional spread by a little bit, by majorities seeking to convict him and establish it as a legislative fact that he did incite insurrection against our government. >> yeah, being the impeachment expert and investigation expert that you are, i do wonder if you're concerned about the power that an impeachment inquiry and those a sit on the inquisition, as it were, that they have enhanced subpoena power and all of this. what are democrats preparing for in terms of the information that republicans are going to see from the president and his family? >> well, they have essentially gotten all the evidence that

they have sought to obtain so far. the claim of obstruction is ridiculous when the head of the oversight committee himself, james comer, is bragging about how he got 100% of everything he asked for. in that moment of boastfulness, he gave the game away. it's very clear that everything they have been seeking they had, but it contradicts the claims that they want to be making. remember, this is a bunch of people who cannot bring themselves to vote to impeach donald trump or to convict donald trump for inciting an insurrection against the union to overthrow a presidential election, when the evidence was overwhelming. now, there is basically no evidence of anything against joe biden even if they wanted

to proceed and go ahead and impeach them. we are going to check them every stop, not going to allow them to get away with anything, as we did today, there was a hearing that they called about third party financing of litigation, and the corruption of the justice system. we turned it into a hearing about the corruption of the supreme court, by all of the billionaire sugar daddies that have adopted justice thomas, justice alito and so on, and spread millions of dollars around in the supreme court with things like fancy, far flung international vacations, jet travel, trips on yachts, private school tuition, buying their families houses, buying private school tuition from members of their family. we will put them on trial. this is the only way that we can deal with the rule or ruin faction that has taken over the republican party, and kevin mccarthy capitulates to them at every turn.

>> i see a strategy emerging here, take their inquisition and turn it to your own. congressman jamie raskin, thank you as always for your time -- >> if i could say one thing -- >> go ahead. >> it is not an inquisition, it's like harry truman, he said i would not give them hell, i will just give them the facts. that is what we are about, putting the facts out there, as well as the law. the constitution requires high crime and misdemeanors, and they don't have evidence of that. >> fight them back with the truth. thank you so much, congressman. when we come back, as mitt romney jumps ship from the republican party, the gop's de facto leader is relishing support from vladimir putin. where to go from there? new york times michelle goldberg reads the roadmap with me coming up next. ♪ ♪ ♪ [sneeze] ...for those 60 and older. it's not just a cold.

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admiration society is alive and well. first, the russian president called trump's criminal indictments symbol of the rotteness of the american political system and added that everything happening with trump is the persecution of a political rival from a political reason. alexei navalny, cough cough,

and then, trump went on truth social and used words to attack joe biden. while he was doing, that it was given a tour of a russian space center to north korean kim jong-un. u.s. officials say the two governments are actually advancing a potential arms deal. that is who the republican presidential front runner is citing for political gain, a guy currently considering exchanging ballistic missile technology with kim jong-un and exchange for weapons to use against ukraine. and as many republican moderates like mitt romney decide to jump ship, the rest of the gop is increasingly coalescing behind the same guy that vladimir putin is out there defending. >> there is no question that the republican party of today is in the shadow of donald trump. he is the leader of the greatest portion of the republican party. it's a populist demigod portion of the party. >> joining me now is michelle

goldberg, opinion columnist for the new york times. michelle, what does it mean to lose mitt romney from the gop -- what is it me to excise, ex communicate, if you will, mitt romney? >> the thing is, i don't think mitt romney was necessarily ex communicated. it doesn't look like he was necessarily going to lose a primary. he's quite popular in utah. i think what it means is that mitt romney has given up on the republican party. like even mitt romney, who at every stage of the trump administration was consistently sure that there is some sort of alternative, that there was some sort of bubble that was going to pop, that there was the possibility of a patriotic republican party has basically seen the writing on the wall and said, you, know that he can't do it anymore. >> i'm a man without a country. my question though is that if he is so disheartened, disaffected of -- with the republican party, why not be more clear about what's happening inside it? in this book that's been forthcoming from mckay coppins, romney, iraq and, he tells mckay coppins what he really thinks. he goes on -- effectively gossips, if you,

will about the ways in which other senior republicans, including mitch mcconnell, understand trump to be a pox on the party. and yet, it is, you know, big announcement he's leaving, you're not hearing any of that. what's the point of indignation if you're going to keep it yourself? >> he's not quite keeping it himself. >> if you know it's gonna be on sale. >> i mean, he knows that obviously this is going into this book. although the thing that i think is so interesting is that he talks and that expert in the atlantic about the social pressures, that when you are a republican, even if you are going to be an anti trump republican, there are these social pressures to kind of tow the line. and he talks about how relieved his staff was when they thought that he might actually vote to acquit on the trump during the first impeachment. and so, he even talked about how awkward it is to step at the -- lunches with these people who are behaving in such a slap-ish and craven manner. so i think that there is a

level at which when they're in the tent, they try to stay someone in the good graces. and then once they really give up on it. you see this with a whole lot of anti trump acts republicans. >> i do wonder though when you have somebody like tommy tuberville in the senate, like, it's clear he's not staying in line, right. and the senate is increasingly -- i won't say it's devolving into the same chaos as the house, but it's very clear that mitch mcconnell is not running in the tight ship anymore. look at tuberville is doing, completely at odds with his party on key issues. so why not? >> he is not completely at odds with his party. he's at odds with his -- kind of senate leadership, perhaps. >> sure, going after the defense industry, the defense industrial complex is largely at odds with what republicans want. >> i think it's what republicans traditionally have wanted. but i think that there is a -- you know, there is a part of

the republican party that has become so radicalized, not just about the democrats, but really become really so pessimistic about america that they no longer see the military as something worthy of their respect. they no longer see, you know, kind of the defense industry is something worthy of their respect. so you know, not because they're offended by america's, you know, forever wars, not because they're offended by the pork that keeps the defense industry afloat, but because they think the military is, quote unquote, woke. and in that sense, they -- >> he's not at odds. >> right, he's kind of part of the zeitgeist. >> maga nihilism, that's very much a common thread within the gop. with a josh hawley, a j.d. vance, and to some degree, tuberville, if they're not directly at all odds, they've shown that even in the senate, you can be an individual, you can set yourself apart from the crowd. and one wonders, you know, could romney not use these waiting days to make more of a publicly principled stand

against the party? >> let's see if he will. it because he still want to be in the senate for a couple more years. >> yes, two years. >> so we'll see kind of now that he has nothing left to lose, we'll see, you know, we'll see what he does. but you know, i just think it goes to show that there's no more decent faction of the republican party, right? >> yeah. >> and we need to kind of wonder at the onset of the trump administration, one of the republican speaking of? how do they live in themselves? you know, how, how, you know, one is kind of things that they say behind closed doors going to break out into the open? and i think the answer that romney has -- >> never. >> yeah, never. >> and in the meantime, trump, putin, kim jong-un, and also elon musk. it's a dc comics mount battey conclave. >> and think, people are sick of talking about russia because the republicans have played a stern jiu-jitsu where they've warned about it so much so it makes it seem as if trump didn't actually seek and receive russian help in the last election. but just imagine the scope of

russian meddling in this election, and the degree to which there will be no pushback on it from the republican party. >> it's a pushback embrace. >> yeah, absolutely. >> this is where we live, this is where we're at right now, sometime in 2023. michelle goldberg, thank you as always, can't wait to read your next column, maybe about mitt romney. that is our show for this evening. and now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening. we're going to have the old professor timothy schneider join us in the second half the program tonight to talk and another frame about vladimir putin and donald trump. as it turns out, professor snyder is just back from ukraine. he has much to say. >> he is such an eloquent and very wise thinker on all these things. so, i'm excited to see that one. >> yeah, and it's on those things where it took the war in ukraine for me to discover him as someone who belongs in the dialogue on the show. and for that,