trump, democrats feel they can win that argument. >> yes, they do. all right. white house and politics team leader for bloomberg, mario parker, thank you for joining us and going through all these topics. appreciate it. thank you, the viewer, for getting up "way too early," show it by the name, and being with us this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. get the [ bleep ] out of our country and the [ bleep ] out of iowa. >> i'll put him down as a maybe. >> mike pence brushing off a protester in iowa. if you would call him a protester. we've got a lot to get to this morning. including house speaker kevin mccarthy's defense of the impeachment inquiry into president biden. we'll have his comments on that and who he blames for his flip-flop on whether to launch

the impeachment inquiry without a full vote. meanwhile, on capitol hill, far right republicans got the inquiry that many of them pushed for, but now they're saying it won't deter their demands on a spending bill. and we have a packed guest list this morning. that includes senate majority leader chuck schumer, nancy pelosi, who announced her re-election campaign, and former secretary of state hillary clinton, just to name a few. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, september 14th. along with joe, willie and me, we have white house editor for "politico," sam stein, doing "way to early" duties this morning. thank you, sam. >> of course. >> editor at the non-partisan group, project democracy, amanda carpenter is with us this morning. and congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany joins us this morning, as well. good to have you on all board.

willie, let's start with impeachment. >> that's some guest list, by the way. i'm glad i wore clean clothes, joe and i both. we're ready. let's start with the details surrounding republicans' impeachment inquiry into president biden. kevin mccarthy announced he directed three committees to direct the inquiry, saying president biden was involved in his son, hunter's, business dealings. biden brushed off the republican move saying, quote, i get up every day, i have a job to do. i have issues that affect the american people every single solitary day. the house claims it wants to impeach him because it wants to shut down the government. there is a september 30th deadline to pass the funding bill. the house has been unable to reach a compromise.

far right republicans are pushing for deep spending cuts. some believe mccarthy launched the impeachment inquiry in an effort to appease those lawmakers so they'll support his stopgap funding bill. but mccarthy's move seems to have done little at all to occur are i that favor. in conversations with reporters yesterday, a number of house freedom caucus members said while they support the inquiry, it does not soften their demands for spending cuts. sam stein, this is what we've been talking about for several days now, which is, republicans, matt gaetz, marjorie taylor greene, believe they have complete leverage over speaker mccarthy because they gave him his job on that 15th vote back in january. they're going to extract from him everything they want. an impeachment inquiry is not enough. they want more. >> you have to understand, matt gaetz, marjorie taylor greene, their political reason for being is to be a thorn in the side of their party, right? if matt gaetz and marjorie taylor greene were to say, yeah,

the impeachment inquiry has been launched, we'll therefore vote to fund the government, they'd be damaing their own brand and invite a challenge to their own position. if mccarthy thought authorizing the impeachment would get their votes in a funding bill, that was obviously mistaken. this shows you the difficult position mccarthy really is in, make a ton of decisions and agreements, frankly, with the far right in order to get the speakership, and now they have him over the barrel. they can call a vote on his speakership. i don't think it'd prevail but it'd be an embarrassment to him. he has to bend over backwards to get things done, like fund the government. if you talk to anyone on the hill, there is zero expectation the government will stay open past september 30th, maybe a stopgap, but it'll close after that. we used to think of shutdowns as big deals. this is now going to become a

routine process. >> jackie alemany, what are you hearing on the hill? some members of kevin mccarthy's far right group, caucus, whatever, were so, so disrespectful toward him on the airwaves. i mean, it just -- it seems like a very unhealthy alliance that he has. >> yeah, and it's not one that is proving to work to his benefit even after he's gone ahead and unilaterally announced the house is going to initiate an impeachment inquiry. last night, the house couldn't even move forward on funding a defense portion of the appropriations bill. that's because this group of hard line, staunch conservatives have said that it's not enough that mccarthy announce an impeachment inquiry. they still haven't seen what the speaker promised them months ago when they decided to vote for him as speaker, which is these 12 top line -- the numbers for the top line appropriations

bills that they've asked to be dramatically reduced. this has been, you know, what they've been calling for all along. these big budgetary cuts. this is something that they have actually tried to explicitly separate from the impeachment inquiry. the two things aren't connected, even as mccarthy tried to say they are. if the house decides not to fund the government, they can't go ahead with an impeachment inquiry. this doesn't seem to resonate with these hard liners who are simultaneously calling for mccarthy to ramp up pressure on both of these fronts. >> yeah, and you know, the thing is, they're only playing for social media. they don't give a damn about balanced budgets. they don't care about the things that we fought for when we were there as republicans. they don't give a damn about any of it. how do i know that? because when donald trump was president of the united states, i actually was begging them to focus on smaller budgets, on

balancing the budget, on bringing down the national debt. i actually went and talked to the head of the freedom caucus for lunch, saying, "stop your nonsense. stop playing around. we actually have the debt that keeps exploding, and it's exploding worse under donald trump than any president ever. do something about it." what do you think they did? they did nothing. mark meadows did absolutely nothing. so, now, suddenly, they're going to shut down washington, d.c., because of the deficit, when they just didn't give a damn a few years ago? as long as it was donald trump breaking records, spending us into debt, destroying our economy, long-term health of it, they didn't care because it was all about donald trump. it wasn't about deficits. it wasn't about the debt. it wasn't about the united states constitution. which very few of them seem to care about. if you don't believe me, let's

talk to a guy who actually serves with them. you know, willie, we've got some news on mitt romney right now. we're going to read it. before that, this morning, early, i got up and i started reading some excerpts from an extraordinary book. listen to some of these things. mitt romney rightfully said, i mean, first, "a very large portion of my party really doesn't believe in the constitution." then he says of mike pence, "no one has been more loyal, more willing to smile when he saw absurdities, more willing to ascribe god's will to things that are ungodly than mike pence." let me say it again. >> wow. >> "few people were more willing to ascribe god's will to things that were ungodly than mike

pence." he said, "there they were on january 6th, making a calculation that put politics above the interest of american democracy and the u.s. constitution." then this, when romney took the stage at a utah republican meeting in 2021 after the january 6th riots, he quickly realized it underestimated the vitriol awaiting him. he became fixated on a red-faced woman in the front row who was furiously screaming at him while her child stood quietly by her side. he paused in the speech and

couldn't help himself. he looked down at her and he said, "aren't you embarrassed? aren't you embarrassed?" [ crowd booing ] >> neither that woman, nor mike pence, nor josh hawley nor ted cruz nor my old republican party nor mitt romney's old republican party embarrassed. one thing, i've been very, very complimentary of what mitch mcconnell did on january 6th. what i found out from this reporting is that on january 2nd, angus king called mitt romney and said, "we have a problem. intel is suggesting that the far right extremists are coming to

washington, d.c. they're bringing weapons. there's going to be violence." mitt romney immediately picks up his phone. he texts, he texts mitch mcconnell and says, "we're in trouble. we need to plan for this. this is what's going down." mitch mcconnell didn't return his text. radio silence when a sitting member of the united states senate told the senate majority leader, "we are going to be facing violence on january 6th." mitt romney thought back about that as the senators were being chased all around the capitol, and they were trying to find a safe room. one of the security guards said, "well, the senators know where they're going," and romney's

aide snapped and said, "no, they don't. they don't know where they're going. what, there's no plan for this? you have no plan to get these republican senators and democratic senators to a safe space?" at that point, mitt romney realized, that not only had mitch mcconnell ignored his warnings, he ignored the warnings of everybody else. and there they were, lost among a mob, desperately trying to find a room where they could save united states senators' lives. a very large portion of my party, mitt romney said, really doesn't believe in the constitution.

and it's confirmed when donald trump says he wants to terminate the constitution. and four or six or eight republicans say, "yeah, we're on that guy's side." people ask, why is mitt romney retiring from the senate? i ask, how in the hell did he stay there in that republican party for so long, willie? >> yeah. that scene you're describing, these are excerpts from a book coming out in a couple weeks, but that scene you're describing of angus king urgently reaching out to mitt romney, "i need to talk to you," talks to him. angus king relays the threats of violence on january 6th, and then the text message you're talking about, where mitt romney reaches out to mitch mcconnell and says, "there's talk that they want to burn down your house, mitch. there is going to be violence in a couple of days. are we ready for this? what's the plan?

we know what's coming. we're getting this intelligence and seeing it online," and did not get a response from mitch mcconnell which tells you so much. you also, amanda carpenter, reading through some of the excerpts, get the sense that, yes, he's retiring, mitt romney, because, he says, of his age. he is 76 years old and wants to turn over the party to a younger generation, but that the party that he grew up in through his father first, then he came up through and was a governor and a senator, is gone. he talks about in the book the josh hawleys, the jd vances, and he said, effectively as mckay reports, these are not outliers but this is where the party is going. these aren't people he believe came to washington with the right intentions. they were cynical operators undermining democracy, and he couldn't work with them. >> yeah. listen, it is a setback that mitt romney is retiring from the senate. he is one of the few senate republicans that voted for

impeachment, but you have to dig deep and think about, what does it mean that mitt romney didn't feel safe in the united states senate because of the threat posed by his colleagues? former republican presidential nominee, you know, very wealthy man, should be one of the safest in the world. he is a smart person. he's made the calculation, i cannot function here in a positive way in the senate any longer. you know, i wish him a very restful retirement, but i don't want to lose him. here's why. i firmly believe that republicans like mitt romney will not make a difference in the history of the country, it'll make the difference. the quote he had in the atlanta profile where he talked about authoritarianism being a gargoyle over the cathedral, ready to pounce at any time, stopped me in my tracks because i believe it is 100% true. if mitt romney can realize that and he can talk to other republicans and say, "listen, i may not support joe biden, but i

clearly see the difference between authoritarianism and democracy," he's putting it that way. authoritarianism is a really scary word. it is not one we want to apply to the circumstances of our country. but if we look at what -- if donald trump was in a different country doing this, we would have no problem saying that. so i think a lot about my job at protect democracy. what can we do to make sure republicans like mitt romney don't disappear into the ether? because there have been a lot of republicans who have disappeared, who were once no prominent positions. we can name the people who have been retired, primaried, in all the, you know, hundreds of other people that make up a republican party, who no longer feel welcome. they need somewhere to go. they're not going to become democrats necessarily, but if they can understand the choice, as mitt romney does, and he can be a voice in that, that would be very helpful, even though i'm sad, very sad to see him leave the senate. >> he was surrounded. i mean, he had -- it seemed like

at times no safe harbor. even people closest to him. you know, people that i worked with that were friends for decades, it's like donald trump came to town, and the people i knew for decades completely disappeared. well, his running mate was paul ryan. i've known paul. i remember calling him urging, "come on, you have to fight back. this is not normal. don't pretend it is normal. don't put your head down and say you'll worry about legislation," which is what he was doing. here you have mitt romney who was struggling with impeachment. he knew he was voting for impeachment. he just sat there and kept hearing the same cynical arguments from mitch mcconnell, other republican members of the senate, from the staff, from the lawyers. couldn't believe it. you know, he was really anguished about what he was going to have to do. he gets a phone call, and it's

from paul ryan. paul ryan was not talking to him as his former running mate or as a friend, paul ryan starts, mitt romney says, giving him the same talking points that the trump white house was giving him, that mitch mcconnell was giving him, that the lawyers were giving him. no words. >> this is a loss on so many levels, given the current state of our democracy, honestly. losing a good man here. he's not running again. senator romney made the announcement that he won't run for another term next year in a video posted across social media. the 76-year-old former presidential candidate acknowledged his age was a factor in the decision. >> i've spent my last 25 years in public service of one kind or

another. at the end of another term, i'd be in my mid 80s. frankly, it's time for a new generation of leaders. they're the ones that need to make the decisions that will shape the world they will be living in. now, we face critical challenges. amounting national debt, climate change, and the ambitious authoritarians of russia and china. neither president biden nor former president trump are leading their party to confront those issues. political motivations too often impede the solutions that these challenges demand. the next generation of leaders must take america to the next stage of global leadership. >> oh, i think it'll be a great think if both president biden and former president trump were to stand aside and let their respective parties pick someone in the next generation. president biden, when he was running, said he was a transitional figure for the next

generation. well, time to transition. >> sam stein, curious your thoughts about, again, not only the retirement, but also similar case, extraordinary quotes from mitt romney. >> i thought the most extraordinary quote, and it is just completely filled with extraordinary quotes, was one recorded from mitch mcconnell, actually. i'm going to paraphrase it, but i believe it was in the midst of the first impeachment. mcconnell calls romney and says, i'm jealous, more or less. i can't say what you get to say about trump. it was that word "can't" that i thought was extraordinary here. of course he could, right? mcconnell could say it, he just wouldn't. and i think that's sort of the fundamental distinction between romney and everyone else in his caucus. what he conveys to mckay is, you

know, his sentiment about trump and trumpism is more or less shared with 99% of his colleagues, but he may be among the 1% or 2% who says it publicly. the rest of them just refuse to do it, even though they felt it. you know, i think that gives you a sense of where the republican party is, about the compromises that it has made, about the choices it's made to get to the point where it is. it also gives us a really clear understanding of how we got to this point, right? maybe nothing else would have changed if mcconnell and others stepped up and said the things they want to say, but i fundamentally believe we probably would be in a different political landscape had they followed that path or that instinct. >> no doubt about it. amanda, one thing that came out here that we've all known for a very long time is just how much every republican senator hates donald trump. there's story after story throughout this of how

republican senators were trashing donald trump in the cloak room. talked about one time where, after the mueller report and after mueller's testimony and trump came to the hill, he was in a great mood. he spoke to the senate and he said, "all this is behind me. now, we can be the party of health care," and as he was walking out, everybody was applauding. he goes out the door. the second he's out the door, there's silence for a second, and then the entire room erupts in contemptuous laughter. laughter, mocking laughter of donald trump. all of 'em. this is the republican party. this is how they feel behind the scenes. but you put a camera on them, as mitt romney says,babbling and ss up to donald trump. >> in the case of mitch mcconnell, when he says, "i can't say the things you do, mitt romney," it is because mitch mcconnell has self-gagged himself with partisanship.

you know, i always think back to what someone told jonathan martin, i think, for a "new york times" piece during impeachment, in which it was mcconnell's view that the democrats would take care of this problem for us. i mean, that's the fatal flaw here. always thinking, this is a partisan issue, it's not a national issue. it's not an issue of upholding the constitution, as mitt romney pointed out. it is always a partisan fight, "well, we'll let the democrats take care of it, and i'll never have to self-police or do anything that blows back on me when it comes to policing my own party." it is not just mitch mcconnell. they'll freely admit it behind closed doors, but as soon as they're in front of the cameras, the partisan gag goes on and they tie up themselves. >> jackie alemany, people like mitt romney or pat toomey, richard burr, the old line establishment republicans, they're all gone. they're leaving and making way for candidates like herschel

walker, dr. oz, and the ones that donald trump likes better. joe is right, if you read through the excerpts from the book, it reveals something to the public that we say on this show a lot, and you don't have to take our word for it, which is that the republicans who you see on tv defending, sometimes weeping on fox news, saying, "donate, donate to donald trump's defense fund. they're coming for him. they're coming for all of us," they have beyond contempt for him. they mock him behind closed doors. which makes what they do out in the public every day all the worse, that they know better. they know better. they know that donald trump is not a good man, know he wasn't a good president, but they fear him and they fear his voters, so they go along for the ride every day. >> yeah, willie, and i think, you know, one of the biggest takeaways i had from mckay's extraordinary piece, really, i'm very excited to dig into this book, is this idea that i think a lot of people have debated and

grappled with over the past, you know, eight years now really, which is that trumpism is not aberration. it is something mitt romney had believed when he actually decided to make the run and go into the senate. you know, he showed up in washington, d.c., thinking he would be the moderating force in washington and would be successful at that. came to quickly realize that this actually was the future of the party. now, you know, we're at 2024, seven years after he got here, and he's realized that there's been a complete metetamorphosis. i haven't had anyone deny that the institution has degraded. mitt romney gets it, as well. he was told the number one priority in terms of his decision making process by one of his colleagues is, will this help or hurt my re-election?

that seems to be the, you know, the driving motivation for a lot of the lawmakers we see now. of course, in the senate, there's a little bit more room for some moderation, for some more traditional conservatives, as you just named, although a lot of them are now leaving. they are a dying breed. in the house, obviously, because of the way these districts have been created, you know, lawmakers can get away with being far more controversial, hard right, and, you know, these players that we've seen rise up in this maga universe. but as romney also says, at the end of the day, what are people like ted cruz, josh hawley, jd vance getting? they're becoming famous senators. what does that mean in the broad context of the world? i think that also gets at this final point, which is, you know,

is government now the most effective vehicle for change? that seems to be something that romney, you know, doesn't necessarily believe in anymore, other than the fact that, you know, his colleagues don't believe in the constitution. >> all right. "the washington post"'s jackie alemany, thank you so much for your reporting. editor at the non-partisan group, protect democracy, get the name right, amanda carpenter, thank you very much for being on this morning. come back, both of you, very soon. thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," the manhunt for an escaped prisoner on the run for two weeks is over. we'll go live to pennsylvania for details on how police captured the convicted killer. also ahead, much more on the impeachment inquiry against president biden launched by house speaker kevin mccarthy. we'll be joined by congresswoman nancy pelosi, who was criticized by mccarthy for launching a similar investigation into then

president trump when she held the gavel. plus, senate majority leader chuck schumer will weigh in. and former secretary of state hillary clinton will be our guest this morning, as well. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. some people just know what road to take. those are the people who know to choose allstate. the service road is faster. gps: turn left. not happening. he knows better than any gps. and he'd point you in allstate's direction. go all the way down the road, past the big gray warehouse. gps: take the next exit. you're not from around here, so you don't know the back roads. i don't want to be late for the party. i'm gonna save us five minutes. some people just know what road to take.

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down as he tried to crawl away from underbrush. the dog bit cavalcante. authorities say he suffered a minor injury. police say no officers were hurt while apprehending the fugitive. cavalcante was transported to a police barracks where he was arraigned on escape chargers. the convicted murderer being held in a maximum security prison. he broke out nine days after sentenced to life for the murder of his girlfriend. the 34-year-old also wanted for murder in brazil. joining us from the site where authorities captured him in chester county, nbc news correspondent george solis. we had you on the phone yesterday morning while he was all unfolding. what more have we learned in the 24 hours since? >> reporter: yeah, good morning, willie. there was a lot of developments here. as far as how cavalcante managed to survive in the woods behind me, marshall rob clark saying he admitted post the interview that he survived by eating watermelon

from a nearby farm. he drank from the streams, which a lot of us assumed. he found a razor in a bag he stole, and that's how he changed his appearance. he was tactical about what he did. he planned. he used the stolen .22 rifle he'd stolen from a home monday night to try and carjack someone, to try to break that new police perimeter that police set up here, and try to get to canada or anywhere he could flee this chester county area. obviously, try and leave the state. these are some of the new details that we are learning about cavalcante and where his mind was as the days sort of went on during this manhunt. of course, the community, as you can imagine, breathing a major sigh of relief. it's a bit of a cliche saying, but when you think about it, we had businesses, schools, ways of life completely interrupted because we didn't know where this fugitive might appear next. he was obviously going to homes of former coworkers, seeing if he could get some help. at this point, authorities are still saying they are looking into who may have assisted

cavalcante, if anyone at all. you know, during these briefings with lieutenant journal bivins, we pressed him hard about how this could go on for long and if mistakes were made. he said, no, this is how they thought it would work out. no perimeter is 100% secure, he said. we're going to keep pressuring him, and he'll make a mistake. sounds like he did. he was moving in the area, tripped a burglar alarm overnight. the thermal imaging capturing him. there was a storm moving in, but the teams stayed on the ground, keeping him there. they used the canine to really seal the deal, so to speak. now, cavalcante is back in police custody. >> george, listening to the description from authorities, sounded like he was surprised that they captured him from above, from an aircraft with that heat imaging equipment about 1:00 in the morning. they had a pretty good idea of where he was. is it your sense that he was completely caught by surprise

when the dog moved in and when he turned around and saw all those law enforcement officers? >> reporter: yeah, absolutely caught by surprise. i think he was pretty confident that he was able to elude authorities, since he managed to do it for so long. i think authorities knew they had him in this area, this proverbial needle in the haystack, and they made sure he wasn't going anywhere. again, using the canine to really make sure he was taken down. of course, we saw that photo of the officers, the tactical teams taking that trophy shot, if you will. the lieutenant saying he had no issue with the teams doing that, considering the manpower that was out here and how long they had to brave these conditions out here. the bad weather, the heat, trying to track this guy who evaded them for two weeks, willie. all in all, as we mentioned, danelo cavalcante waking up in a maximum security prison in montgomery, pennsylvania, where he'll finish carrying out the life sentence remains to be determined. >> he will not be out of their

sight this time. george solis, great job covering this story for the last two weeks. thanks so much. we appreciate it. coming up, the united auto workers are preparing to strike if they can't reach contract agreements by tonight. steve rattner joins us with charts on what it says about organized labor in the united states. "morning joe" is coming right back. for such a small item it performs big in so many ways. big on comfort. big on durability. big on breathability. bombas gives you big comfort for all your athletic pursuits. the sleep number climate360 smart bed is the only smart bed in the world that actively cools, warms and effortlessly responds to both of you for up to 44 minutes more restful sleep per night. save $1500 on the sleep number climate360 smart bed. shop now at sleep number.com. thursday night football fon prime.ur it's on. welcome to thursday night football. al michaels along with kirk herbstreit.

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41 past the hour. a live look at the white house as the sun comes up over washington. the judge presiding over the mar-a-lago documents case has taken swift, new action, seen largely as a win for special counsel jack smith's team. in an order yesterday, u.s. district judge aileen cannon limited former president trump's access to evidence in the case and barred him from publicly discussing sensitive material. despite trump's claims that he had already declassified all the documents that fbi agents found

when they searched his florida resort with a warrant last year, the order refers to materials in question as still being classified. judge canon wrote that trump and his defense team can discuss or review the classified information only inside a court-approved, sensitive, compartmented information facility, or scif. or another authorized area. the judge did not mention the scif that trump's attorneys requested she reestablish at mar-a-lago, which housed one during the trump presidency. the 16-page order by the trump-appointed judge is largely in line with a proposal submitted in july by special counsel jack smith's team for how trump and his attorneys should handle national security information related to the case. judge canon's ruling did not completely shut the door on trump's declassification

arguments. she wrote it is without prejudice to potential challenges, including arguments raised under the presidential records act. we'll be following this, of course. still ahead on "morning joe," two prominent democratic women will join us. speaker emerita nancy pelosi and former secretary of state hillary clinton. we have much more ahead on "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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that's a beautiful view looking south from atop our building here in manhattan at rockefeller center. 6:47 in the morning. the clock is ticking for all three major u.s. automakers to reach a new labor contract and to avoid a strike that could cost the u.s. economy billions of dollars. ford, gm and stellantis have

until midnight to reach an agreement or face walkouts by millions in the union. employees of the companies are demanding a pay raise and better benefits. former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. he is at the southwest wall with his charts. steve, before we dive in, what is your sense as the former car czar in the obama administration, of how this ends. is this going on for a while? >> willie, this looks like one of the toughest ones we've seen in a very long time. the uaw has new leadership, very, very aggressive, saying very aggressive things. the demands are incredibly substantial, much more than the car companies can do, and i think at 11:59 tonight, you'll see some strikes. they've come up with a clever strategy of striking only a few plants to start with, which would have the effect of still disrupting car production. the goal, of course. but also have not most of the workers out on strike where they have to receive strike benefits from the union. they would continue to get paid by the companies. so it could be an unusual

strike, but, nonetheless, potentially crippling to the auto industry. >> hours left to go before a potential strike. let's dig into your charts with that in the background, steve. your first chart is labor scoring recent wins in these strikes. >> yeah. willie, i wanted to give you a sense of what is going on in the labor world in general. these are days lost to work stoppages. each day, a work strike counts as one. we had a period of considerable strike activism back before the 2000s. if i took this chart back further, you would see even more extraordinary days lost to strikes. we lost 24 million days of work to strikes on average from 1947 to 1959. then you can see labor became very, very quiescent for a variety of reasons. fewer union members, action on the part of companies and not much inflation.

lately, we've started to have strikes pop back up. you did have a strike against general motors in 2019. of course, now, everybody knows we have the screenwriters and the directors out on strike. so you can layer the uaw on top of that, assuming it happens. the strikes that have happened have been somewhat successful. it's hard to know exactly, of course, because inflation has also pushed up wages. but you can see that first year pay increases and union ratiied contracts were down as low as 1% or 2% in the early 2000s. we also didn't have much inflation. now, partly as a combination of both factors, you can see these contracts are settling between 5% and 6%. problem here is that the union's demands are pretty much extraordinary, way beyond what the car companies can meet and still have viable companies. so the gulf between the two sides is very, very unusually large. >> as we move to the next chart, steve, we can see why auto workers are striking, which effectively, as you say, their

wages have remained basically stagnant almost 30 years, not keeping in line with wage growth and the economy more broadly. >> the auto sector is unusual. manufacturing itself is different from a lot of the service kinds of jobs that have also gone on strike, like the writers and the l.a. hotel workers and so forth. let's start with a couple basic principles. the deal between american business and american workers is if you produce more per person, we'll pay you more. this close set of lines here shows that happening. as productivity went up, going back to 1960, wages tandem. workers were getting their share of the pie. that diverged. productivity continued to rise by wages didn't rise, and we had very, very high corporate profits. there are a bunch of reasons for this. decline in union membership, things like that. but the consequence of it was this. the consequences were somewhat

different for different parts of the labor force. if you were an auto worker, your wages after adjusting for inflation stayed roughly flat throughout this entire period, from 1990. you had no real increase in your standard of living. all workers, which is this black line, had fairly, you know, noticeable, not huge, but about a 10% increase in real wages over that period of time. then you have manufacturing workers who were somewhere in between. they got some increases but not as much as service workers, but a bit better than the auto workers. it's been tough for workers in manufacturing to stay up with inflation. >> also, mike barnicle, the old world of auto workers being in unions changed. if you move to the south, south carolina, georgia, places like that, you have a how lot of non-union auto jobs there, and those out of the country, as well. that's what auto workers in detroit are up against here. >> the result of that, willie, in addition to a very feisty,

new head of the uaw, shawn fain, a very aggressive union leader. steve, the point that you raised earlier, that there is a potential strike that will begin tonight at midnight, maybe just one car company. we don't know yet. but what happens to the consumer who has ordered a 2024 model due out maybe in november or december, what happens to the cost of that car? >> certainly, wage increases are inflationary, and so you want to try to find some balance between the two. i'm not as worried about the inflationary consequences because labor is not actually that huge of a percentage of what it costs to make a car. it will be noticeable. i'm more worried about how this falls out in terms of the future of the industry. because there are a bunch of disturbing trends that are unique to economies that export a lot, that live in a global market, manufacturing companies, opposed to service companies, a hotel worker or something like that.

let's take a look at what has been happening to the share of both car companies and to the workers who work at them, union workers. the so-called big three as we call them, detroit three, chrysler, which is stellantis, ford and general motors, was around 90% in the 1960s. these would have been virtually a high percentage of union workers. that share has dropped, dropped, dropped, and it's now down here at 40%. that's a combination of imports from other countries as well as companies making cars here, like toyota, honda and so forth, and selling them into our market. the union membership dropped. union membership was as high as 60% over here, back in 1980, and it's now dropped to about 10%, about 18%, sorry, over here. the unions have lost a fair

amount of their clout. a lot of these plants moved to the south where they're typically not unionized. they pay a lot less, and they produce a lot of the same cars but outside of the unions. another place they move, we need to be cognisant of, is mexico. if you look at manufacturing -- auto manufacturing employment in mexico, you can see this red line right here, going up and up, obviously covid changed everything for a little, but now it continues to go up to here. whereas, u.s. car manufacturing employment bounced around a little here, covid, and now, for the first time, right around here, more auto workers are working in mexico, making cars for our market principally, than are working in the u.s. making cars. the people in mexico can get paid as little as $8 an hour. there's one unionized gm plant that gets between $9 and $33 a

day. sorry, a day, the $9. so you're competing. the union workers here are competing against much more lowly paid workers down in mexico. that's a further drag on auto employment up here. >> great perspective on a strike that could be coming at 11:59 tonight. steve rattner, thanks, as always, for walking us through all of it. sam stein, labor day, president biden said he didn't believe there would be a strike. he describes himself as the most pro-union president ever. is the administration involved in this negotiation in some way? >> yeah, they're involved. one of the top aides to biden, jean spurling, has been work with the auto workers to get a middle ground here. we got word from "the wall street journal" yesterday, i believe, that biden himself had called the heads of the auto companies to figure out if there was some more give there, that they could give up for these

negotiations. steve is absolutely right. i mean, all signs indicate that come midnight tonight, we're going to get a targeted strike. we'll see how long that lasts. we'll see if biden is compelled to get more further involved. keep in mind, there's been a couple of strikes or near strikes in his administration already. the rail strike, the mlb strike. he has shown that he can get involved last minute. could happen today. >> sam stein, thank you very much. coming up on "morning joe," a new biography of senator mitt romney has some eye-opening revelations about his republican colleagues and their feelings about donald trump. we'll have those new details for you straight ahead.

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if biden is not going to run, who will? >> just when you thought the

terror was over. >> i don't know. i don't know, kamala? >> wake up! >> you realize it's just beginning. >> there's got to be someone. >> cory booker. >> he is 40! >> mayor pete. >> listen to yourself. >> from the producers of "smile" and the twisted minds of "morning joe" -- >> ah! >> guys? >> no, not again. >> i have the perfect candidate. >> babe? >> a superstar who can go all the way. hilary. >> ah! >> sometimes, your best option -- >> i'm with her. >> ah. >> i'm with her. >> is the one you fear the most.

>> there has to be someone. >> biden maybe, are we back to biden? >> i like biden. >> biden. [ laughter ] >> remember that? >> welcome back to "morning joe." >> are we the twisted minds, the lee of us? i have some more on the set with me, by the way. we'll say hello in a second. >> great. >> we will say hello. what is so fascinating is, yesterday, we had the conversation, and you and i said it, mika said it, everybody is talking about joe biden is too old to run. it's that conversation right there. joe biden is too old. da, da, da, da, da. then the question turns to, well, who could do the job better than him? everybody looks around at each other. the next question is, who can beat trump? everybody looks at their shoes. eh, nobody. >> it's true. >> that's the thing. it's so interesting. you know, david ignatius wrote that column yesterday, and so

everybody -- >> ah. >> oh, stop. you know, everybody was like, it's horrible, it's horrible. it's what they were saying, but it is almost like the article, i personally think, did joe biden a favor. i think that because it finally got it out there. okay, this is what everybody is talking about it. you want to talk about it? let's talk about it. who you got? who do you have to replace him? there was a deafening silence yesterday. you heard people talking about the article in washington. it was like a political bomb that went off. but after the bomb went off and, you know, things got quiet, you started hearing the birds chirping and everything and people talking. they all came back to the same conclusion. if not biden, who? good lower third by the way, guys. the fact is, i could name a lot of democrats. i'm not going to. there's no need for me to poke at anybody right now.

but joe biden has the best shot of beating donald trump. and i know this doesn't really matter in 2023 to most people, objectively, joe biden has done a damn good job. >> exactly. so why are we asking this question? why are we asking his question. >> if you look at his foreign leadership, if you look at the historic expansion of nato, if you look at how he has walked through the possibility of a decision between allowing russia to invade a country in the middle of europe and rewrite the history books and encourage china to invade iran, avoiding world war iii, he's deftly walked through all of that. steve rattner asked, why do americans think the economy is getting worse when we have record low unemployment,

inflation has gone down, economists from gone from saying we are going to have a recession to saying, wow, looks like we're going to stick that soft landing after all, and three out of four americans say that they are doing better economically than they were a year ago. willie, you know, again, we could talk about his achievements. we could talk about the fact there's been more bipartisan legislation passed over the last year or so than at any time this century. any time this century. yet, people are still like, yeah, but he fell off his bike, and he gets real tired. well, i'm sure warren buffett gets real tired. i'd like to have warren buffett's mind right now for investing. >> yeah, and, by the way, david ignatius made that exact case

before he said that joe biden should step aside. he lauded his domestic achievements, talked about the role he's played on the world stage, bringing nato together, adding members to nato, standing strong against vladimir putin, saying, he's done a great job, but it is time to step aside. as i read through david's column a couple nights ago, i was waiting for the end for the answer of, if not biden, who? there wasn't an answer at the end of that. if you look at polling, where even democrats, seven out of ten of them say he's too old, the next question is, well, are you going to vote for him? they'll say, well, of course, i'm going to vote for him. he's running against donald trump. >> right. >> we can say, okay, he's too old. by the way, when he ran last time when he was inaugurated, he was 78. he wasn't jfk in 1960. so he won, and that's the case you're going to hear from the white house. here's our record of achievements. i'm the guy who beat donald trump. i'm the guy who kicked donald trump out of the white house. they believe they can do it again. let's bring in our table of the twisted minds at "morning joe."

mike barnicle is still with us. also joining the conversation, president of the national action network and host of msnbc's politics nation, the reverend al sharpton. not one of the twisted minds. nor is molly jong-fast, host of the "fast politics" podcast. i was thinking more of "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. that's why he's nodding here, he knows it. >> part of my brand. >> david ignatius, what do you make of his conversation that he thrust out into the open? >> joe brings up a good point, in that it kind of blew it up and it's out there now. look, the biden administration has one path. we've talked about it a lot on the show. it is just quiet confidence, that he is getting the job done. also, the alternative. it is simple, if not biden, who? trump? i get into this discussion, and we all have the same discussion,

biden is too old. voting for trump? no, i'm not voting for trump. i actually think biden should kind of -- ronald reagan had the famous joke, i'm not using your inexperience against you. i think biden should bring it up and have some fun with it, walk into it and own it. just say, yes, yes, i am going to be 82 years old, and i bring 60 years of experience to the table. i'm going to do what i did in the first term, do exactly that in the second term. own it and walk into it. >> you know, the guy, the guy works long hours. you had fox news correspondent the other morning talking about how joe biden worked through the night in hanoi. how many times -- seriously, over four years, did you hear anyone say donald trump did that? you couldn't keep him focused. you couldn't get him -- you know, gary cohn, others became frustrated because they couldn't get him to read a single sheet

of paper. they had to tell stories to him. joe biden stays -- i've talked to foreign leaders. >> man, woman, cat, dog, tv. >> i talk to foreign leaders who went into meetings with joe biden after hearing everything that they've heard on tv, and they were shocked. not only was biden locked in the whole time, but biden was always a step ahead of them in negotiations on every single issue. every single issue. maybe he gets tired, doesn't perform well on tv in certain times. so what? a lot of our very successful presidents have done the same thing. but here's a clip from fox news. peter ducey talking about just how hard it is to keep up with joe biden. the guy works a very long schedule. >> we expect a short statement off the top, just about how the

g20 went in india and how meetings went with the communist party in vietnam. then as many questions as he wants to take. he has been basically working all through the night. the equivalent of an all-nighter eastern time. he's probably pretty tired, pretty jet-lagged, but he should take at least a handful. >> there's peter ducey. i'm sure some people at fox weren't happy he gave president biden credit for pulling an all-nighter during his trip to vietnam. you know, mike barnicle, this is after india. this is -- again, the very people who are criticizing joe biden for being out of it or being tired or being too old, they're comparing him to, what, donald trump? a guy who hated going on foreign trips. a guy who they couldn't get to go outside in the rain. a guy who got bored and would

regularly insult our closest allies. they're comparing joe biden to that? i mean, you look at where america stands globally right now compared to where we were. again, it's an alternate reality to say anything but joe biden has been extraordinarily successful on the international stage. yet, i hear people saying that. i hear people writing that. i read it in op-ed pages. despite where we are in europe, despite how strong nato is, despite the pivot to asia that put us in the strongest military position in asia and around china as we've been in over 20 years. >> well, you know, joe, first of all, the president of the united states is well aware of how old he is. he knows when his birthday is. he knows how he feels. he'll be pretty honest about it. he will tell you when you get to be the age of 65 or 70,

certainly 80, you get out of bed in the morning in three parts. you swing your legs out, then you're trying to get your hips out, and it happens. it happens growing up and growing old. but to your larger point about joe biden doing his job, he certainly does do it and has done it since he was sworn in as president. there's going to be a lot of talk, concern and legitimate worry about his age as he proceeds into a campaign year. but around the world in four or five days, which he just did, from india to hanoi to alaska and then back to washington, here's what he did. he continued to build a fence to protect democracy. that fence extends from great britain down across, encompassing all the nato countries. it swings through northern africa, beneath saudi arabia and the adriatic sea, and off into india and up and around vietnam

and china and japan and korea, south korea. he's done all of that. he's kept the nato allies together. he's fashioned an agreement with the vietnamese that has been talked about since about 1975. he got it done to further enhance the security of the united states in the south pacific. he's done a whole lot that goes unreported. not totally unreported but large numbers of people in this country are unaware of the job that president biden has done. now, whose fault is that? i don't know. that's beyond my pay grade to figure that out. but he's been on the job, and he does the job every single day at the age of 80, nearly 81. >> well, and this is what happens, willie. he pulls all nighters. he works around the clock, as mr. ducey said. he fashions deals that, you know, on nato that nobody has ever done.

he fashions deals in vietnam that people haven't done. he fashions deals with australia regarding nuclear subs that upset a lot of people who were competing, but america won it. he's doing all of these things, and, yet, what's the headline online? "joe biden stumbles around for a couple of seconds and says, i'm going to go to sleep." well, he said that after steve ducey said, "he's probably going to be exhausted. he's jet lagged and pulled an all-nighter, but he'll probably answer one or two questions." he did and said, "i'm going to go to sleep." that's the headline, "oh, my god, he's out of it." again, reality does not matter to these people, really doesn't. they just want the -- they want the clip. you have joe biden falling off a bike. oh, joe biden fell off a bike. that's horrible. donald trump can't even walk downstairs at west point.

and, by the way, it is a side note, he steals nuclear secrets and says he wran wants to termi the constitution. but joe biden fell off a bike once. this is really the level of stupidity that political discourse in some quarters has reached. >> it is. and it's a statement about our political media culture, too, that any concession by a republican to say that, yes, historic unemployment is a good thing, and maybe joe biden deserves some credit for that, is viewed as intolerable, as weakness. you can't pay any compliment. rev, if you did a blind taste test and president x had some of these economic numbers and it strengthened nato in the way that president biden has, you'd say, republican or democrat, he's done a pretty good job. but this question of age is pervasive. david ignatius put it out into the open. he introduced the question of, what about kamala harris, the vice president? why not kamala harris? if you believe joe biden should step aside and elevate kamala

harris. what do you make of this discussion, how the white house is handling it and should handle this? >> i think the white house should own it. i think they should go after the stupidity of what they're raising. that is, is joe biden too old? too old to do what? because he's doing that. i mean, look at all of the things that barnicle just named he did. so i would reverse the question, is he too old to do what? is he too old to steal nuclear secrets? is he too old to do the things that your candidate does? who decides the age limit? are we dealing in ageism here? are we dealing in, can he do the job? he's done the job better than anyone probably in this century in terms of legislative, concrete achievements. even in the area i work, civil rights, the man did the george floyd executive order when we couldn't get the republicans to get out of the way in the senate. voting rights, all of these things. is he too old to do what?

kamala harris, who do you have that can beat him? who do you have that has the experience and has shown the tenacity and ability? who are you going to give me? vivek? i mean -- >> right. >> -- are we just trying to fill in space because we can't argue their records, or are we going to be serious? there is no one on the republican side, no one, including the senators, who can't get out of his own way that can stand up to kamala harris. bring it on. >> yeah. >> the reason they do these characterizations is they have no content. >> well, i mean, i'm not going to -- i think we can put the clowns who focus on joe biden in a way that is so unbelievably hypocritical because they've shilled for donald trump for years, we can put them aside. but i don't know of two people i have more respect for than mitt romney and david ignatius, who has been a family friend for decades and one of my father's closest friends and confidants.

yet, they say, in david's piece, and i guess we need to have david back so he can defend himself, because he offers no alternative. no really legitimate alternative. i'm sorry. that's just the case. and then goes on to say that whoever would jump in would put the same people in, so you would get the same bright minds. no, no, that's the problem here. joe biden has actually made this look easy. he's made it look too easy. putting together a team, putting together an administration, putting together a dynamic that can move the mountains that joe has talked about at the top of this hour is not easy. a lot have tried to do it, and they have failed, especially the former president and other former presidents on both sides of the aisle. joe biden has done, arguably, a very effective job as president, whether or not you agree with his policies.

so the question i have for those who ask that question that you see on the screen, what is this really about? is it about kamala harris? is it about someone else who wants to step in the fray? if it is, then say it. because this argument about biden doesn't hold up. it just doesn't. molly, your thoughts? >> i mean, i think this is the top line here, the power of incumbency, right? there are a lot of bad faith actors out there who would love to see a divided convention, who would love to see democrats at each others' throats. remember, the dream scenario for a lot of these republicans is what happened in 2015, where they were, like, bernie was cheated. you can't vote for hilary. i think that's really the dream here, is to have a big convention and to have democrats at each others' throats. remember, there is no precedent for removing a very popular -- you know, a very accomplished incumbent. there's no precedent. this is not what happens. he's over delivered in the 2020

election, over delivered in '22. we had all these specials where, you know, his party has over delivered. the idea that now you're going to change it because he's three years older than donald trump is complete madness. >> totally. senator romney announced yesterday he won't run for another term in the senate citing his age as one of the factors. he is 76 years old. joining us now for more on that, congressional correspondent for "the new york times," annie carney. yeah, tell us more about his decision and how much age plays into it as opposed to the frustration that he has experienced with his republican party. >> i think there was a lot that went into that decision by mitt romney, and in the mckay coppins article, that was an excerpt from his upcoming book about romney, it sounds like romney had made this decision quite a while ago, that he wouldn't seek re-election. mostly, he's been on an island in the senate for a long time, isolated from his party ever since he broke with his party to

be the only republican to vote for trump's impeachment, on the first impeachment. but in his announcement, he made an argument about age, saying it's time for a new generation of leaders, implying heavily that he thinks biden and trump should both also step aside for the same reason, that a new generation of leaders is needed to make decisions about their future. but it was a complicated argument. because later in the day yesterday, he had a press conference to talk about his decision. he was asked about the age question. he completely defended mitch mcconnell, who is 81 and has health issues, and said, well, he's still a senate minority leader, in position to have great influence. if i was in that position, not junior senator, i might make a different decision. it makes sense for him to keep going and stay in power because he can affect a lot of change. so i found the age argument from romney yesterday to be a bit

muddled. he was saying, if you have a lot of power and influence, why not keep going? you could make that argument that biden in the presidency would have a lot of power and influence, too, to keep going. >> yeah. joe biden has a little power, yeah. he does. willie, i know you have the next question. i wanted, though, to read some of these quotes that we read at the top of the 6:00 hour from mckay coppins from mitt romney. "a very large portion of my party really doesn't believe in the constitution." that's what he said of the republicans. of mike pence, he said, "no one has been more loyal, more willing to smile when he saw absurdities, more willing to ascribe god's will to things that were ungodly, than mike pence." of hawley and cruz, "they made a calculation that put politics involve the interests of american democracy and the united states constitution."

of a woman that was screaming at the top of her lungs and red faced at him at a utah convention, while her little daughter sat aside, mckay collins talked about him pausing his speech, looking down at the woman and said, "aren't you embarrassed?" then, of course, he said, "there are deranged people among us. in utah, people carry guns. it only takes one disturbed person," he said "people like josh hawly." during january 6th, he said of hawley, "this is what you've brought upon us. about mitch mcconnell, who he defended yesterday. we were talking last hour that when mitt romney got a call from

angus king, senator from maine, saying, "hey, we've looked at intel. bad things are coming. violence is coming to this city on january 6th. they want to burn down mitch mcconnell's house. they want to storm the capitol. they want to hurt us." mitt romney immediately texted mitch mcconnell, who was radio silent. never responded to his warnings. never responded to the concerns. there mitt romney was january 6th, they were being chased by rioters who wanted to kill them. the cops didn't know what to do and asked senators where to go. romney's aide screamed, "you don't know where we're supposed to go?" he thought back to the text that he sent to mitch mcconnell. he realized nobody made any plans for this. despite the fact mitch had the intel. they all had the intel.

there were no plans. >> that text was on january 2nd, four days before january 6th, according to mckay cop ins in coppins in his book. he said, "mitch, we've seen the intelligence. they want to burn house your down. they're amassing guns," which was true, across the potomac in a hotel, "and they want to attack the capitol. our intelligence agencies are saying this is happening." mitch mcconnell did not reply. exactly that happened, minus the burning down of his house, four days later. you also see, annie, in the reporting from mckay coppins, a man in mitt romney who feels he fought for a while and realized this is a party that has left him and will continue to leave him. talking about josh hawley, mckay writes, "romney couldn't associate any longer with those in politics for selfish

reasons." he went on to say, "more hawleys were on the way." the cynical actors who do and say anything to undermine democracy, do it to keep their job, to stay relevant, in power, whatever it is. >> romney ran for the senate and arrived in washington thinking that he would play the role of a moderating force and have some power from the middle. the reality, he was shocked by what he saw, just kind of walking around the halls there, saying, "i can't believe this is really how the place functions." you know, disgust of trump was shared by many of his colleagues, he said, but no one wanted to break publicly with him for fear of their own political futures. he felt a little bit useless there, i think. the truth is, in the senate, romney has, like, struggled to find a real lane. he was just a freshman senator,

but he wasn't, like, a focal powerhouse in the senate. what was super interesting about the mckay excerpt is that, to see a sitting lawmaker kind of openly reckoning with the reality of his party and kind of really struggling with what role can i play here, and ultimately coming up with the idea that it's a little futile. we saw the same thing happen in the '22 midterm elections, where the four house republicans who voted to impeach trump, four of them decided not to run for re-election. there's not a lot of future for this kind of politician in the party. >> you know, also, there is another underlying thing. i never talked to a governor once that later became senator, that when i asked, "what job did you" -- they've cut me off and say, "please, governor. not even close." it is frustrating in the united states senate and the house. constitutionally, it was set up to be that way. >> but this is a loss.

congressional correspondent for "the new york times," annie karni, thank you very much. >> thank you. joining us now, chuck schumer and mike rounds of south dakota. good to have you both on the show this morning together. >> together. you know, senator -- >> good morning. >> senator schumer, we talk a lot on this show about how americans don't really get the headlines. that over the past year, there has been remarkable bipartisan cooperation in the united states senate. there have been a lot more bills passed. whether you're talking about vets care, whether you're talking about infrastructure, you guys could go down the list better than me, but you guys are here in another example of bipartisanship on an important issue. tell us about it. >> yeah. well, we had a forum yesterday, an insight forum, bipartisan, led my mike rounds, myself, senator young, a republican, senator heinrich, a democrat, where we started talking about how we're going to tackle a.i. a.i. is one of the most

difficult things for a congressional body to tackle because it is so complicated and technical. it is so wide-ranging. it is going to affect just about every aspect of our society, and it is changing. but we have to act. so mike and i decided that we would have to have a forum. we invited the experts there on both sides of the equation. some who would set up a.i. systems and some who had been critical. before 70 senators, we had a discussion. one of the best things that happened, a seminole moment, i think, in history, i asked all participants on both sides of the question, do we need the federal government to be involved in setting up some guardrails on a.i.? universal agreement. >> yeah. >> senator round -- yeah, i just want to say, senator rounds, as a conservative, i've always been weary of a mass accumulation of power, whether it was in big government, whether it was in big wall street organizations, big banks, whether it was in big

tech. here, it seems like we have some of the most powerful people in the world who are unaccountable in silicon valley, who are telling us, hey, just trust us. just trust us. stay away. we'll take care of it ourselves. i take it, you're not willing to just close your eyes and just trust them, that they're going to do the right thing on a.i.? >> actually, what they told us yesterday was, is guidelines are necessary, but they also said, look, if you're going to referee something, you've got to have expertise. that means you've got to bring in people that understand a.i. that's where we have this bipartisan approach which says, if we're going to don't, let's do this right. let's not hurry into it, but we understand that you need experts who understand a.i. that can help policymakers. we don't necessarily have that type of expertise available to us right now and in place. part of the discussion is going to be, do you go on out and find it in the universities? do you find it in the national

laboratories? do you provide that to each one of those policymaking bodies that already is within the federal government? whether you're talking about the judiciary stuff, the commerce stuff, armed services, intel, all of those separate committees are going to want the expertise. well, there isn't enough of that to go around to everybody. can you put it in one location, or can you set up a body such as a standards testing group that would perhaps provide the expertise? i think that's part of the discussion we're having. getting a little into the weeds, but that's the way we need to do it if we're doing it correctly. >> joe, everyone in the room realized, we had tough critics. liz shuler, maya wiley of the civil rights conference. everyone realized, if we don't do anything, then the lowest common denominator might occur. things would go to the bottom in terms of job loss, in terms of inequities and inequalities. even in terms of a system going rogue and really hurting humanity. so the need for some kinds of

guardrails, serious guardrails, is something that everyone agreed to. now, it'll be our job on a bipartisan basis to come up with those. there's certainly a lot of good that can come out of a.i., curing cancer, curing world hunger, dealing with our national security. there's a lot of bad that could come out, too. our job, difficult as it will be, is to maximize the benefits but also minimize the very real harms. >> senator rounds, good morning. there has been a sense in recent years, as technology has moved so fast, when these social media executives come in there, they take their medicine from you all in congress and go on with their work, which is to say, they're so many steps ahead, no real legislation can slow down or contain what they do. you had elon musk in there, zuckerberg, bill gates, the brightest minds. are you confident that legislation from washington actually can rein in a.i.? >> i think there's two parts to it. first of all, there is an incentive on their part to try to get it as light as possible,

because they want to be able to expand. the other piece of this is, they want america to be the leading location. this is what they want to be. they don't want china or russia to lead. if that's the case, that means we've got to be able to put a framework in place that will invite the type of intellect and expertise to stay in america. there is a value to them to making this work appropriately. if they want to grow and expand, america is the place where it's got to be. they understand that if we don't have some sort of guidelines, pretty soon, there's a challenge of transparency and privacy, then the lid comes down hard. they rather would have a reasonable approach than at a knee-jerk reaction later on that damages them and chases a.i. development overseas. >> the worst alternative would be to do nothing. our resolution in a bipartisan way is to do something. we told them, there are going to be some things we do they're not going to like, but we have no choice. a.i. is so deep, even deeper

than tech was when it started, that if we don't do something, it could get out of control. >> that's what -- >> i don't think people realized how deep a.i. is right now within our military. i mean, look, on the battlefield today, a.i. is being used, not just by us but our adversaries. we have to stay on top of it. we have to have the best a.i. capabilities in the world. so this isn't something that we can shy away from. it's not something that's going to go away. as the leader says, it is something that we have to address, but most certainly, we have to remain the best in the world on a.i. development. >> that's why we're doing this bipartisan. you know, joe, everyone can make a speech and even put in a proposal. unless we pass something, nothing good will happen. doing this in a bipartisan way is the only way we're going to get something done. >> yeah. >> even though each of us may not get all the things we want. >> all right. couple quick questions for both

you guy. i don't know if you saw "oppenheimer," but i saw what happened after the bomb was dropped, i saw the atomic energy formation, and the united states saw this frightening technology and took control. put a fence around it to make sure that humanity was protected as much as possible. i couldn't help but think of a.i. technology. i'm wondering, is this a step in the direction where both of you guys think we need to go? because we've heard from elon musk down, we've heard people saying, a.i. technology could end humanity as we know it. >> a good number of people brought up that we ought to try to replicate what they did with aiei, the atomic energy bombing, and it is something we'll look at. in the united states, if we

consult with other nations, we think the other nations will follow us in that regard. >> i think one part of this, we may be farther developed in a.i. than what they were with atomic energy when they started putting this together, but, remember, albert einstein, he came to america. can you imagine what would have happened if he would have stayed in germany? >> right. >> we've got to make sure we bring the best and the brightest into the united states, and this is where they want to be. >> amen. we could talk about high-tech immigration reform, but we'll save that for another day. now, i want to ask both of you guys a question that will make you both uncomfortable. it has to do with a colleague of yours named tommy tuberville. senator rounds, i'd like to ask you if you agree with what tommy tuberville is doing, holding up -- well, i think hurting the readiness of the united states of america. senator schumer, i just want to ask you, maybe it's because i'm

a hot head. >> no. >> but i would say, okay, coach, you want to hold up the marines from being a commandant for the first time in 150 years and hurt readiness for the united states? okay. we're going to call everybody in. we're going to sit down, and we're going to have the votes. nobody is going to leave that chamber for about three or four weeks, so we hope you enjoy making your point. i will start with you, senator rounds. first of all, do you agree with what tommy tuberville is doing? >> i recognize that he has the right to do it, and i understand the reason why he is doing it. we also know that we have to resolve thetions, we always have individual votes to begin with. we could be doing that, and we're going to bother the leader about that a little bit, because he has the ability to do that. this is a great place to ask him that question. your turn. >> well, let me just say this -- >> wow, well played. >> mike and i will disagree. this was caused by a republican.

he's a member of the republican caucus. it's up to the republicans to put him in line. if we get one vote, we'll get another vote, another vote, another vote, and we don't leave people behind in the military. someone brought up a great point. jack reid in the armed services committee. you don't -- when john mccain was arrested and tortured over in vietnam, they offered his ability to go home himself, and he said, "no, i don't leave my colleague behind." there are 600 tuberville is holding up and it is growing. we're not leaving anybody behind. it is up to the republican leadership to call tuberville in and say, stop it. we're making some progress. last week, one of the republican candidates for president said that tuberville was wrong. nikki haley. yesterday, a very powerful house member, mike mccaul, the head of the foreign policy committee in the house, said they ought to back off. >> but, senator -- >> they're not going to put this on our back. >> could you not today -- i'm

not putting it on your back. the marines need a commandant. couldn't you call a debate today and get a vote so the marines -- >> sure, then he'd demand a vote on the next one and the one after that. we offered a debate on his bill on abortion, which is unpopular with most of the american people, which says that a woman who has volunteered for the military can't have an abortion. >> i understand that. >> okay. >> i'm just asking, the procedural question about, why don't you at least get these service heads, why don't you at least get them a debate and a vote, and then move on to all the others later? >> as soon as we do that, there will be tuberville or another republican demanding a vote on something else and holding up the next person and the next person and the next person. this has never been done. no one has ever held back the military people, even though they feel strongly on an issue. if you start doing it once, it's going to happen over and over again. our military will be in shambles.

>> if there is one thing we do agree on, we all want to find a path forward to resolve it. i think over the next couple of weeks, hopefully we'll be able to do that. we've actually suggested to our friends in the military that they sit down with senator tuberville and try to find a path forward. i think senator tuberville wants to find a path forward, but, you know, in the meantime, we continue to give the leader a little grief, as well. >> that's part of the deal, joe. >> senator rounds, i understand you don't come on "morning joe" much. we're grateful you are here. but rule number one, you never let a new york yankee fan off the hook, never. >> i'm a new york yankee fan. >> hey, joe. >> sweet jesus. what is wrong? >> joe, aren't we having enough trouble already as new york yankee fans? do we need anymore? >> oh, my gosh. mika has a quick question. >> senator rounds, it sounds like you might be eluding to your republican colleagues working with tuberville to try

and get him to figure out how to, i'll try to find a different way to say change his position and stop the blockade. >> to move forward. >> to move forward? >> we have continued that discussion. we've -- and we know that the senator has had discussions with folks in the department of defense. they haven't come to an agreement yet, but i do believe that he understands that he wants to find a resolve, as well. morally, he believes he is in the right position. i have the same position he's got. but we know we have folks that we've got to get moved up in the ranks. our military will be a lot better off once we get this resolved. >> joe, even senator mcconnell and thune admitted what tuberville is doing is wrong. >> there we go. >> we thank both of you for being here. >> don't want you to get in a fight now. >> despite the fact you're both yankees fans. >> we like each other. >> this is very disturbing. senator rounds, senator rounds is very patient. he understands that you have an

all appearance contracts. the fact you get the last word. isn't that right, senator rounds? >> listen, as long as we can talk about the yankees and, like, i'll start back with the '61 yankees and move forward, but, you know, when you go through the thick, you go through the thin, as well, with the yanks. >> mickey mantle, we love him. >> amen. >> really quickly, let me throw out, mitt romney retiring. a loss for the senate? >> big loss. big loss. truly a gentleman and a guy who cared about policy. >> something we agree on again. he was a big loss, and we were able to work together very well. we'll miss him. >> guys, we really appreciate you being on, talking about such an extraordinary issue right now and coming together in a bipartisan way. america thanks you. >> chuck schumer and republican senator mike rounds of south dakota, thank you, both. >> yeah. it's interesting.

donny -- >> frustrated on the tommy tuberville thing. it is ridiculous. >> i'm frustrated, too. yes, it's on tommy tuberville.s is saying, the republicans at the same time. chuck schumer can call a vote today on the service heads, on commandant of the marine corps and the other two services that right now don't have a leader. i understand, there's 600 people. we need to get them all through. i'm glad they're negotiating. maybe that's just the simple way of thinking about it. but i've always thought when these senators, one senator is holding things up, first thing i'd do is say, okay, you're in my senate now. that's just awesome. you're not going to give unanimous consent? great, i'll call everybody in. on the fourth night when they're pulling cots into the cloak room and i've been there when that's happened, yeah, yeah, you're going to get to explain to your colleagues why you're keeping them there for, like, seven, eight, nine weeks in a row. >> yeah. my good friend senator schumer

didn't take the bait on that, unfortunately. you know, this tuberville issue is just so stunning. republicans, the republicans doing something to hurt the military, it is just one more example of how the republicans just no longer are who they are and what they stand for. you know, senator rounds was very deft at not answering the question. one positive thing out of that exchange is -- >> well, he said they were working on it. they were negotiating with him. they're trying to get to a point -- get to a resolution. he and chuck schumer both said that. chuck schumer could end it today, is what i'm saying. >> i don't know how you serve it up any more. i don't know why he is not. i'm a chuck schumer fan. he's not doing it. another thing -- >> donny, one other thing, too. sorry, just to interrupt quickly. i get what he was saying, also. well, if we give into this and make them vote, they'll do it on the next thing. you know what? i'd say, okay, maybe you can build a condo inside the senate

chamber because, guess what? you're not going to get away with that in my senate chamber. life is going to get ugly if you think that you are going to be able to damage the readiness of the united states military, if you think you're going to stop the marine corps from having a commandant for the first time in 150 years, you make that point. you make the point. but everybody is going to suffer because of your actions. i think that straightens them up quickly. >> i think it does, also. one positive i will say. any time i see two guys from separate side of the aisles together, it just makes me feel a little bit better. it's just such a rare example, even when they're not getting anything accomplished, just seeing them together. >> but they are. >> you know, i just -- that's the one thing that people want. the one thing that every research study shows is that they want reaching across the aisle. now, whether something ges done or this issue is another thing. seeing them together makes me feel better. >> molly, americans like the

bipartisanship, but they grow frustrated when an easy question about tommy tuberville leads to that answer. why can't you say what he is doing is wrong, which is what they say privately. he shouldn't be doing it. he has the right to don't. he ought to knock it off? >> i actually think joe is totally right. chuck schumer should take them to the mat. should say, okay, let's vote and vote. let's do four days of voting. i think this is one of these ways in which democrats are still, you know, they are still sort of old school. they haven't adapted the kind of -- i mean, this is well within schumer's rights. maybe in the senate of 2004, you might not do that. but we are in an emergency, right? democracy is in a very perilous place. i say, do it. make them vote. i would say one other thing, mitch mcconnell, because he is older and having health crises, i would say, he is sort of helping the case that, you know,

with the age stuff, you're seeing that biden is -- he is going with biden on the age question. >> it was refreshing to see a republican and democrat standing there, but listening to them and the output, their explanations of why tommy tuberville continues to do what he is doing, and is allowed to continue doing what he is doing, i don't know that we can call the united states senate any longer the world's greatest deliberative body. do you agree? >> well, i hate to disagree with the whole table, but i do. i'm outraged by what tommy tuberville is doing. but just listening to those two people who agreed to come on television in a bipartisan way, when it is not going to help either of them with their constituents or with the people they work with, so i commend them for that. you have mike rounds, who obviously, like other republicans, very frustrated by

what tommy tuberville is doing. they're in the middle of negotiations. when you're in the middle of negotiations, you don't go out in front of a camera and trash the person you're in the middle of negotiations with. so i understand why mike rounds said what he said. we're making progress. he's obviously very frustrated about it. he trashes tommy tuberville, tuberville gets his back up, and this goes on and on. as far as chuck schumer goes, again, i don't understand. again, it's been going on for so long. this also is going on with ambassadors before, where they were holding up every ambassador. >> still doing that. >> they're still holding up ambassadors. molly, agree with you. i agree with you. i do think sometimes democrats just play by marquess of queensberry rules. >> mm-hmm. >> i think the democrats need somebody that runs -- is respectful of everybody in the chamber but says, if you're going to affect military

readiness by holding up 600 promotions in the military, if you are going to protect our ability to have american interest represented across the globe, and hold up one ambassador after another, i'm going to make you do it. i'm going to make you do it in front of everybody else, and you're going to be responsible for everybody sitting in the chambers for four, five, six, seven weeks. no breaks. i'm going to tell every democrat when they call for a recess to vote it down and keep them in there. after i finish with the 600 military promotions that are being held up, i'd move on to the ambassadors that they're holding up. i would grind them down to the ground. i would burn down their buildings. i would salt the earth to make sure nothing every grew back again. by the time they got out of the

black hole of kolkata, like, in the united states senate, they'd walk out and they'd go, we're not going to do that again. if they did it the next day, you've got to bring them back the next day. make it hurt. democrats don't do that. >> yeah, it's not against the way we do things. it's just not, you know, sort of the elegant way that the camaraderie usually is in the senate, but i think democrats should be tough, and i do think they should, you know, our democracy is in peril, right? they -- the republicans have not acted in an honorable way, and i think that they're right to push it. >> but i also question -- i would like to see republicans and democrats stand together. that was a good look as donnie said, but as we go into the '24 election, how much can we expect them to stay together, and how

much when we talk about tuberville and i'm probably closer to molly and joe on this in terms of schumer should move forward vote by vote, but when will the partisan divide kick in when we head into the presidential and a lot of senate races next year? that's my feeling. >> yeah, and i do want to say though, i just want to remind all the viewers we're talking about tuberville. we've talked about romney, but it's important to remember they came on to talk about ai technology. they came on talking about doing the sort of things that a lot of people have said our congress needs to do, our government needs to do. they need to protect not only america, but humanity from ai technology that spins out of control, that could have absolutely devastating impacts not only on the work force and on military -- protecting our national security, but also on

the -- if you believe some of the smartest people in the world, the existence of humanity itself. so i commend them -- >> yeah. >> we're talking about senate procedure here, and yes. it's something to get worked up about because it impacts our ambassadors, but again, big picture, they're coming together on one of the most important issues facing this. >> and i think that was appropriate within that conversation. molly and donnie, thank you both very much. >> thank you, guys. still ahead on "morning joe," live interviews with speaker amerita nancy pelosi. "morning joe" is back in a moment. "morning joe" is back in a moment age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv

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represented me. perhaps it is the memory of that feeling that moved me to remain in university life to make that experience easier for others who felt excluded. >> that is professor dr. ruth simmons returning to harvard university where she earned her masters degree addressing the graduating class there of 2021. 20 years earlier, she made history becoming the first black president of an ivy league university residing over brown university for more than a decade. she also served as president of two other universities, smith college and texas prairie view a&m. her memoir is titled "up home" where she writes about growing up in texas, the daughter of sharecroppers. she talks about the damaging effect segregation had on her community, and dr. simmons joins us. good morning. congratulations on the book. >> thank you so much. >> you have an extraordinary story.

the youngest of 12 children of sharecroppers in a little town in texas. >> yes. >> and you talk about your rise, how you rose to become the first black president of an ivy league university, and you had a teacher named miss ida mae. tell me about her. >> in the world of texas pre-civil rights, we didn't have much, and as a consequence, i can remember the first day i walked into a school and saw a hopeful person who thought that learning was everything, and that changed my trajectory definitively in that my oldest siblings couldn't even graduate from high school because they had to work in fields, but here was someone who said, well, you're smart and you can do all kinds of things, and that's what

stuck in my mind. >> dr. simmons, your your honor and even which you continue to do now is so important, advising on hbcus, harvard, and other work, but the whole trajectory of where you started to where you have gone is so inspiring to young people, and you're talking about your teacher that you met, and now you being an example to so many others, but do you feel that many americans really don't understand how devastating segregation and slavery was, and even shapes a lot of the mentality and psyche that we are dealing with today? because even though we are, you know, in another phase of american history, we still are being impacted by what happened in segregation, in slavery. my parents lived in rigid segregation.

i was born in the north. i didn't know it, but they raised me. how you talk in your book, you talk about the impact that this still reverberates in american society today. >> well, thank you. of course, my life has been all about students, students of princeton, students at smith, students at feldman, and i want them to understand what our path has been because when you forget the lessons of the past, you can obviously make the same mistakes, and that's what i see in our country today. i'm very disturbed about the hatred, the vitriolic aspects of the debate that's going on, the efforts to remove from our children the capacity to understand history. the banning of books, and i want my students to understand that there was a time when african americans could not read, were

forbidden to read because that knowledge was too dangerous to other people, and so we've forgotten so many lessons of our past, and being old enough to have had that incorporated into my life, i want my students to see that you can live through the current times, but only if you are persistent and only if you are completely aware of what's going on and what's happening to you. that's why i wrote the book. >> mika? >> dr. simmons, thank you for writing the book and sharing your story, and you're so accomplished in the world of academia. i just wanted to get your thoughts on the recent supreme court ruling on affirmative action, and how you think that impacts some of these incredible institutions that you have worked for. at princeton, you were on the team that brought toni morrison on board, and you have had such a great career in terms of

trying to bring a wide range of diversity to the tables of our academic institutions. how do you think it will impact the future? >> well, i mean there's no question that it's a defining moment in the history of the struggle for access in this country. there's no question. on the other hand, i'm not -- i'm not one of those who are saying that it's the end. i don't believe that for a moment. it's just what we've done in the past. we've come up against these barriers repeatedly, and at each turn, there have been people of good will, people of great intelligence, people of know-how who have shaped a way to get past it. so my version of this is we have seen the end of affirmative action, but we have not seen the end of these efforts because they are now being created by people who are determined to

keep our country on a path to equality. so i'm very hopeful. i guess that part of what my story is all about actually is that i'm trying to explain to young people why i'm so hopeful because i see them discouraged. i see them worrying about whether or not they will have any opportunities ahead. i try to tell them, this is the way it was for me as a child in this country. no opportunities whatsoever. i thought i was going to be a maid. that's what was written for me, but there are people who work toward different results. thankfully i had teachers. i had others who stepped onto my path. i had others who believed it was the wrong path, and were dedicated to political activity to overturn bad practices. i'm convinced that's going to happen again. >> well, and that optimism shines through even today. it goes all the way back to a

teacher named miss ida mae who believed in her. >> yes. >> and it's remarkable what that can do. it can change the world and it has here. thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> the new book is titled "up home: one girl's journey." dr. ruth simmons, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. we are four minutes into the third hour of "morning joe" now, and let's move onto our next big guest 3, speaker emerita democratic congresswoman nancy pelosi of california. >> so great to have you here. you have been in congress quite a while. you just haven't had enough, have you? you're going back for more. >> you haven't had enough. that's why i'm here today. good morning. good morning. good morning. wonderful to be with you and inspired by dr. simmons. my goodness. let me just say it was, yes.

wonderful to see the bipartisanship that chuck and senator -- leader schumer and senator round brought to the show this morning and to the meetings yesterday, and we have to go forward in a bipartisan way and it's encouraging, but as i listened to dr. simmons, i am reminded that in addition to thinking of terms of guardrails and standards and all the kinds of things that we have to do and what's the agency that's going to run this, we have to improve -- improve ai as it goes forward, and it's apropos of dr. simmons' conversation with you. make sure we don't have bias. make sure our children -- these are things we're talking about, not just to regulate, but also to improve the system as it goes forward, not just accept it as it is at the moment because, again, it's a double-edged sword.

it can be a plus. it can be a minus, but we want to make sure it's as much a plus as possible for everyone. that's why no bias in the algorithms when it comes to women or people of color and our children. >> right. madam speaker, we have a couple of stories that we want to talk to you about. one, the story written by david ignatius yesterday sort of went off like a political bomb in washington, but before i get to that, i want to talk about today's news. we had mitt romney talking about his retirement yesterday, but dropping also is a story where senator romney said a very large portion of my party really doesn't believe in the constitution. of mike pence, he said, no one has been more loyal, more willing to smile when he saw absurdities, more willing to describe god's will to things that were ungodly than mike pence, and then he said of mitch mcconnell, someone who i saluted more much of what he did on january the 6th, he talked about

trying to warn mitch mcconnell on january the 2nd, and to be prepared for violence on the 6th and said he heard nothing back. i'm curious what your thought is about that last one, and also about the other things that we've heard from mitt romney about a republican party that he says most of them don't even believe in the constitution. >> well, the departure -- so far he has another year, but the announcement by senator romney was bad news really because he's such an example of courage in the united states senate and in the congress. the part -- the country needs a strong republican party. i say that all the time, and they've done great things for our country, and senator romney talked about the contrast as to then and now and hopefully we can have it at a place where it is the grand old party once again.

the statement about the constitution is very troublesome because that's the unifying thing, our constitution, the oath we take to protect and defend it. so i hope everyone is listening to his remarks in that regard. >> so madam speaker, i want to touch on what joe brought up as some of the topics that we want to talk to you about today. >> yeah. >> it's sensitive. we have had mitt romney now saying he's stepping down, that age is a factor, and that joe biden and donald trump should step aside because age is a factor. >> yeah. >> and david ignatius writing a piece and pointing in part to age being a factor. can you speak to age being a factor potentially in a good way seeing as you were in the inaugural 50 over 50 list, and when you talked about retirement, i believe you said to me, what's that? i'm not trying to be cheeky or

cute about this. this has become a really serious conversation where people are putting joe biden's potential re-election in question because of his age. >> well, age is a relative thing as we all know, and just looking to our own families and communities and the rest, i come from a community where i just visited with norman leer who's 101, frank gary's 95. both of them still actively involved in their professions. it is -- again, it's relative. i think that joe biden is -- brings such wisdom, judgment, experience to the job of presidency, and he is a great president and will continue to be a great president, but again -- again, it's a relative thing. i can't make judgment about -- health is a factor in it as well. again, let's be in the very positive vein of that age.

it is about judgment, and that's what the president needs to have. joe biden knows his why. he knows why he is there. he has a great vision for america. he has knowledge of the issues. he has so much experience which brings him judgment. he's experienced and strategic in his thinking and getting the job done. we have a record of legislative successes the two years that we were in the majority with him as president, a great leader, and that's all up here in the heart. he's the most empathetic president. so his experience is an advantage to us and not to be described as a disadvantage, but again, it's all -- it's a relative thing. if your health is not good and the rest, then there may be a factor to be considered there. so i appreciate it what senator romney said, and i don't know why -- it's an interesting thing because when we're with the

president, he's vigorous. he's on top of the situation. he is so knowledgeable, and you would see him meet somebody and say, tell me how your younger son is, and i know he was going to college. he has a great memory which is part of the -- of something that might be in question as time goes by, but i'm excited about his candidacy. the biden/harris team is a team and we're very proud of it and we'll work hard to make sure they are re-elected. >> speaker pelosi, good morning. this is willie geist. >> hi, willie. >> we haven't mentioned this. donald trump gave an interview last night where he was asked if joe biden is too old. donald trump said, no. he's not too old at all. i have friends in my 80s and 90s making the case that joe biden isn't too old. he's just incompetent.

perhaps awareness about his own age. >> he's 77. when i said i was running against some of the, should i say friends on the very left who have said, she's too old at 83, but happy birthday, bernie sanders at 82. >> right. right. no, that's right. i want to ask you, madam speaker about what we've seen play out in the last couple of days for your successor with speaker kevin mccarthy where he has now said yes, we're going to have an impeachment inquiry. we're not going to have a vote on it. we're going to go forward with this, and the extraordinary sight of back benchers, members of the freedom caucus scolding the speaker of the house saying, you are out of compliance, speaker mccarthy. you will do as we say. we put you in this job on the 15th vote back in january, and here are our list of demands. otherwise we will vacate the chair. as someone who not so long ago held that chair as speaker and did so well for a long time, what do you make as you watch that play out?

>> well, i think it's a continuation of the night he was confirmed -- he was voted as speaker. he kept making concessions and concessions. i call it the incredibly shrinking speakership. at some point, you have to say, why do i want to be speaker? what do i want to accomplish? is it just to be speaker for the power and this or that, the cars, the this or that, or is it to get the job done for the american people? and if your members have the confidence that you are the person to do the job, then at some point, there's a decision that has to be made. the decision was made in favor of the fringe, and that's what we're living with now, but really for example, when i was running for speaker in '18 and '19, right then, people -- i was for pay as you go, and many in

my caucus said, we don't want pay as you go. that means you can't do pay as you go. that means if you want to spend more money, you have to offset it or you have to have revenue to pay first and that was not popular with many members of my caucus, and they said, until you say you're not doing that, we're not voting for you. i said, i don't want to be speaker if i'm not true to what i believe in fiscal responsibility as well as offering waivers for climate change and exceptional things. so you have to just -- you're either the person they want or you're not, and clearly he was desperate enough for this speakership to just grant them veto power over everything that he wants to do, but let's hope for the best. let's hope for the experience and moving forward in the rest, that the rest of the caucus, of the republican caucus will say, you know, we want to get a job done here rather than just go as slow as the slowest ship in the convoy rather than a bandwagon

of a party to go forward with an agenda, and again, working as much as possible in a bipartisan way because we have a democratic president. >> and speaker pelosi, speaker mccarthy made the argument the other day that, well, nancy pelosi set this precedent. she waited a long time to have a vote on the first impeachment of donald trump. you did hold a vote, we should add, but he said you made the rules and you're just following them now by not holding this initial vote for an impeachment inquiry, and what do you say? >> i say that's hogwash, and i don't know why the press keeps repeating it. i said, we were going to -- i assigned my committee chairs six of them to develop the facts because you have to act upon the facts. that's a strange thing to say maybe around here, but you have to act upon the facts. we had a couple of weeks of doing that, a few weeks of doing that, and in three or four weeks, we then prepared to bring the bill to the floor.

they had eight months of investigation, come up with nothing, and now they're trying to say, well, we're not going to have a vote because nancy didn't have a vote the first day. no. we had a vote. we were in preparation for a vote, but again, this is a big deal, an impeachment. you have to do it with care, and not on impulse, and until we had the case ready, that's when we went forward. now they again have been investigating for months coming up with nothing, and now they're going to say, on the basis of nothing, we're not going to have a vote on how we go forward. don't blame it on me. just take responsibility for what you are doing there and don't misrepresent the care that we took, the respect that we had for the institution to go forward in a way that really addressed the high crimes and misdemeanors of donald trump. >> madam speaker, in terms of respect for the institution, you

arrived at the institution when jim wright was speaker. you arrived at the institution when members of congress, both republican and democrats knew each other, talked to each other, knew each other's families. some of them stayed in washington over weekends and you had picnics together, republicans and democrats. all of that seems to have changed. so my question is, was there a specific period of time in your time in the congress or a specific series of events that helped change what was there when you began your career in the congress in 1988? >> well, i wouldn't use the word help because it wasn't help, but it did change, and that was the speakership of newt gingrich. that changed from the standpoint of disrespect for the other side, the net language was call them traitors, call them treasonous, this or that, and it

really made the big difference, and then -- but we still tried to find common ground. it just took us down a different path, but we still tried to find common ground. what's happening now as it even eclipses that under the former occupant of the white house because it's like an abandonment of a respect for the institutions. i have more respect for the presidency apparently than he had because he's completely disregarded his responsibilities to the point of two impeachments that we could not avoid. they were justified. so the -- what's happening right now has taken us to a different place. it's a question -- you have to question, where is their patriotism? you heard mitt romney say they don't believe in the constitution. this has to be just a phase we're going through. we have to leapfrog over this and unify the country. as i said, we need a strong republican party, a strong democratic party too, but a

strong -- and when i came to congress, the exhilaration was to be in the debate. since the beginning of our country, there's been a debate about the role of our government, local, state, national, this or that, and we've relished that, and we respected that other people had a different point of view, and where do we come from a compromise, hoping for a high split on our side of course, but it was exciting from that standpoint. now it's just even a question of, do you believe in science? science, science, science. no, no, no. do you believe in governance? no, no, no. and so you have the chaos on the other side. i always say to members, know your why. know why you are here. if you know your why, what is it about? is it about a great vision for our country, knowing what you are talking about, being strategic in how you try to attract other people to your point of view, and again, love. i want to be able to say love.

let other versions exist in a way that is respectful. i'm always hopeful that we can get back to that. i myself am running again because of who things. first of all, my district gave me the latitude for 20 years for every day to be responsible for what's happening on the floor of the house either in the majority or the minority from the standpoint of the democrats in the minority, but in the full house in the majority. now that we have some problems in our -- in my district and san francisco which i'm proud to represent, i don't want to say, well, the glory days are over so i'm leaving. no. i'm here and nothing is -- makes me prouder. whatever the position that is my colleagues, the honors my colleagues have given me, nothing is better for me than to walk on the floor of the house as i'm sure every member feels,

to say that i speak for the people of san francisco and my district. and that's at home, and the threat to our democracy which is huge. we must win the election, period. biden/harris, improve our numbers in the senate. take back the house for the people. i'm thinking about writing a book. i am working on it, but i'm thinking about calling it "and our flag was still there." you know, i was from baltimore, 50 years in san francisco, but from baltimore, and the national anthem was written there. so we take great pride in it, and you know at the ball game when we come toward tend and everybody cheers at the last line of the national anthem, but i cheer when it says, proof through the night that our flag was still there. that's my motivation, and our flag is still there with liberty and justice for all which we pledge every day. so we have big challenges and we would like to solve them in a bipartisan way. as i said, it was beautiful to

see as you all acknowledged, to see the bipartisanship that chuck -- i keep calling him chuck. leader schumer and brown brought to it. some of the participants, and professor sonifeld yesterday morning, they went from 8:00 to 9:00 yesterday morning, and it was about nonpartisan, not even bipartisan, but nonpartisanship, and that's how we have to go forward without any bias in the algorithms against women, children, minorities and the rest. again, we can make it better as we try to manage it so that the best of it comes forward. in a bipartisan way. >> speaker emerita, nancy pelosi, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it as always. it's very good to say you. >> i might just make one more point as speaker for a long

time. i think you would appreciate the frustration of the saying, 99 senators are not enough. 99 senators are not enough. >> yeah. >> so you never know what you are going to confront there, and i think chuck is right. this is a republican challenge. they have to solve it. thank you all very much. >> thank you. and coming up next, our next big guest, former secretary of state hillary clinton. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." -gracie, c'mon. let's go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully.

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our electoral rights, our national security, and our fundamental values. corrupting an election to keep oneself in office is perhaps the most abusive and destructive violation of one's oath of office that i can imagine. >> senator mitt romney speaking after donald trump's first impeachment trial. >> wow. >> let's bring in former u.s. secretary of state, hillary clinton. madam secretary, thank you so much for being with us. we've -- we heard what mitt romney said there. we heard what he said yesterday, but my god what he told mckay poppins over the past year that most republicans don't respect the constitution, and in something we haven't said this morning, he said that as he looked at his colleagues, he kept thinking of that yates line that the best lack all conviction, and that -- the best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate

intensity. been there, done that, haven't you? and it just keeps getting worse. >> you know, joe, it's hard to imagine how much worse it's gotten from what we thought was pretty much the bottom, and i really appreciate senator romney being so forthright and laying out his first hand observations and understanding of, you know, what's going on inside not just the republicans in the senate, but the entire republican party. it is something that is hard for me to really understand. you know, i was in the senate for eight years. i served with a number of people who were there. i used to believe that they all knew better, that they went along with the criminality of trump and his enablers for his own reasons, but at some point

they would call halt, but i don't recognize these people, and we've got to fight back as best we can. >> you and i have talked privately about some people that we both worked with, i in the house and you in the senate, and people we respect -- had great respect for, and it really is shocking to see the turnabout. >> yeah. >> i would ask you a general question. our last two guests. we had ruth simmons, every reason to be upset, skeptical, bitter about the world she was raised in, but she said, i'm on optimist. even with affirmative action brushed aside, but the good people have forged forward. nancy pelosi said the same thing. talk to young voters right now. are you optimistic? >> you know, i love to quote my wonderful late friend and predecessor, madeline albright,

and she said i'm an optimist who worries a lot, and nobody's going to take that away from me. we have starting the clinton global initiative on monday. we'll have people from around the world, members of the biden cabinet, people like jose andreas who's such a hero, all kinds of people who are coming together to make a very clear, optimistic statement. we can get things done if we work together. we can find solutions to our problems, and then i'm very excited to be not only teaching at columbia university, but working to set up the institute of global politics because we think that we can help find solutions to problems. so, you know, yes, is there a lot to be worried about, discouraged by, disheartened over? of course, there is, but, you know, roll up your sleeves. quit wringing your hands and figure out what you can do to try to help somebody and help make things better, and try to continually push back on the nonsense and the misinformation,

and the outright falsehoods coming from the other side. they don't want us to solve our problems. you know, joe, we could solve the immigration problem, but the other side wants a problem, not a solution. >> right. >> we're all going to have to just keep going better, and we need people to vote for optimism, positivity, problem-solving, and that's what i'm hoping young people particularly respond to, and i have to say from my vast experience now of teaching twice with my great friend, the dean, young people are smart. they want to see solutions and they don't really understand why we're all paralyzed and partisan to the point of getting nothing done together. >> madam secretary, it's good to have you on the show. >> hey, mika. >> hi. i want to ask you about an issue we have been talking about here on the show for the past two days given an article written by david ignatius and some comments made by mitt romney when he

announced that he would not be running again. from your experience, which you have had many viewpoints of effective presidency and building teams. as a first lady, as a member of the senate, as a secretary of state, as a presidential candidate, you know putting together a team and an administration doesn't come easily and isn't magic. it's definitely not an argument that president biden has had an effective presidency, that he has gotten things done, whether or not people agree with his policies. do you think the questions about his age are legitimate? >> well, the question's legitimate, but the conclusion that people draw is i think off base. look. i am supporting president biden and vice president harris because of what they've gotten accomplished. i'm kind of old-fashioned that way. i like to see people, you know, as i said, tackle big problems, bring people together, and try

to forge solutions, and i don't know about anything else, but i'm kind of happy that we're fixing our bridges and our roads and the rest of our infrastructure, and i'm thrilled that we are going to compete with china on advanced manufacturing and that we're going to make the transition to clean energy as quickly as we possibly can, plus bring down drug prices and i could go on and on. so when people say to me, well, he's old. yeah, that's right, but look at what he's gotten done, and then if that's not enough for you, look at the alternative. a wrecking crew, people mitt romney said do not even believe in our constitution, who don't want to solve problems, who only want to engage in meaningless, endless partisan sniping and insulting. so literally for me, when i look at what's been accomplished with the team that was put together, i am very impressed, and i saw

the president and the first lady at the white house just two days ago, and i loved their energy, their commitment, their determination, and, you know, i'm all in to re-elect people who got things done. that's what this country needs. we need to remember that we can get good stuff done, and that we are by far the best positioned country for the 21st century to continue to lead and make a difference, and we just got to get the naysayers and the whiners and the snipers, you know, to just go to the back of the room because they're not helping at all. >> so secretary clinton, on that list of achievements you could look at foreign policy and david ignatius even goes into detail lauding the president for the work he's done on the issue of ukraine and building the strength of nato and adding members with more members on the way in. so with euroexperience as secretary of state, can you speak to what this administration has done with regard to ukraine and where you think this war is now and where

it may be headed? >> well, you're absolutely right, the coalition that has been put together to support ukraine, i don't think would have been predicted at the beginning of the biden administration given the damage that, you know, trump inflicted on our alliances, but it's a great testament to diplomacy to the hard work of bringing people together. i would like to see us continue not only to support ukraine, but speed up whatever support they need. it's been a difficult challenge to get all of the equipment and weaponry that they request not only from the united states, but from our european allies and others, but anything we can do to expedite that because if you look at what ukraine is doing now, their attacks on the russian fleet going into crimea, that is exactly the message they need to send loudly and clearly

to putin, but i also want to add that what the biden administration has accomplished in the pacific region is also very important, you know, bringing together japan and south korea, two of our strongest allies, putting together india, japan, australia, and the so-called quad creating a real sense of alliance within the pacific region to send a strong message to china. look. we want you in the global community, and we would like really to work in a positive, constructive way, but you've got to understand aggressiveness and, you know, heaven forbid war is not going to be just ignored. we have to have deterrence. we have to have a preventive approach to any aggressive intentions by china, and the biden administration has pulled that off too. so i know foreign policy doesn't usually drive american

elections, but we live in a very complicated and interconnected world and the leadership that president biden has shown in global affairs is critically important. >> so in addition to her many titles, hillary clinton now has added another one. professor. take a look. >> oh my god. >> what is it? >> it's hillary clinton. she's running. >> what? ♪♪ >> what? hillary's running again? >> i know. i heard. that's so crazy. >> this is wild. she's running again. >> here i am. >> hillary, you're running again. >> well, i sure am, karen. i just got here early for the new class we're teaching together on foreign policy decision-making. >> she is returning, running by the way to the classroom co-teaching a course at columbia university school of international and public affairs. i know it well, and she's joining forces with the person

you saw in that video, the school's dean to establish columbia's new institute of global politics and the dean joins us now. it's great to have you on, and great to have you teaming up with secretary clinton. so now we can talk about her while she's listening. tell us what you plan to do with this institute and why secretary clinton. >> wow. so first of all, great to be with you. it's an honor and a privilege to have her with us at columbia. the school started with a conversation we had a year ago where both women and foreign policy, we looked at the global challenges and we realized there's something we should do from columbia, bringing the academic community and leading policymakers together to work to find solutions from the greatest and complex -- most complex

global challenges we're facing and we have to do this with a real global perspective. those problems from climate to artificial intelligence to the future of the liberal order, they're all really, really complex, and we need the best solutions and we think that bringing the policymakers together with the academy, and that's what we're trying to do in the class as well. as a scholar of foreign policy, and she's a practitioner and we would come together and for the students and for columbia to do, and also to promote the civil discourse in terms of bringing different views about the table to really find the best solutions for those complex problems. it's been a great ride so far. >> secretary clinton, the dean explained earlier to us that this coming week, you have 15 fellows arriving from all around the world. 15 of them. so from all around the world,

what if one of them comes up to you and says, your recent past history, the united states' recent past history involves a former president who basically took on the constitution of the united states and tried to void it and then says to you or asks you the question, how did this happen? what would your response be? >> oh, you know, that's a question i get asked already, and clearly a lot of our friends around the world are bewildered by what this one-man wrecking crew started, but clearly, mike, you know, it is rooted in some longstanding challenges that we have in our big, raucous, pluralistic democracy, and there is a yearning among many people that they just wish the

complexity, the changes would somehow disappear. that was the genius of the slogan, make america great again. it was nostalgic. it was looking back to some era that frankly never existed, but which is viewed as better than all of the challenges and problems we face today, and although i can't say that he was the sole reason why we have so many people who are very negative about the rule of law, about our institutions, about us, you know, being a diverse society, he certainly gave voice to that in a way that we had not seen in many years in our country. so it is a challenge. it's a challenge to democracy, a challenge to the rule of law, a challenge to our larger sense of community and commitment to a shared future. so it's put us all on notice that sadly a demagogue like we've seen in many other parts

of the world see on the stage now and certainly have seen in the past can light those fires of hatred and discontent and fear and anger and grievance in the united states. so it's not unusual in human history, but it's a great disappointment that it is happening here, and the only way to deal with it is to defeat those politicians who espouse those views, who want to set us apart, who want further divisiveness. as karen just said, we want to model respectful disagreement at the institute, so we understand not everybody's on the same page, but there are ways in a democracy that you can try to find at least a sliver of common ground, and you don't exile people for having different points of view. you try to understand where they're coming from on all sides of the political debate.

so these elections coming up in 2024 could not be more important for freedom, for democracy, and for the rule of law. >> so dean, i know you all at the institute cover the entire globe, but as you launch this initiative, where are the areas of students as you stalk to folks? where are you hearing the most conversation? >> so in the school we're focusing on several global challenges in particular. the first is artificial intelligence, and the impact that this will have on a democratic society, on journalism, on -- even on geopolitics and warfare. artificial intelligence and how to think about new technology, how to regulate them and see what they can do, their impact in one key area. geopolitics for sure, we're going to do a postmortem on the leadup to the war in ukraine.

thinking about china and the future, that is another big area, but also issues around climate and the effects that that will have on society, and we're thinking about all of those issues in a local to global perspective, and that is very unique to what we're doing because as we know, things that happen around the world have major effects on here in new york city even and vice versa. so the idea is to bring policymakers and the academics together to try to really offer solutions based on evidence and cutting edge research, but research is also accessible to policymakers and actionable to try it in those different areas and obviously democratic resilience is an important one. seeing backslide of democracies across the world, but all those questions are very fundamental to what we do, but i think the

most interesting part is the intersection between them, and that's where the complexity is, and this is where we need really the best people from the academy, from the policy community, from the private sector, from the ngos to really come together and think about fresh ideas. >> all right. madam secretary -- you're so busy, she's a professor. she's got cgi next week. the clinton global initiative, and this year's focus is keep going. so tell us who you're going to be talking to. >> right. >> i hear you have some really important guests. >> oh, mika. we are thrilled at the lineup we have, and we're starting monday morning with his holiness, pope francis. >> wow. >> so he and my husband will be in a virtual conversation about some of these challenges that we all have to face and come to grips with. i will be talking to janet yellen about many of the

initiatives that as treasury secretary she has been championing to try to deal with inequity around the world, a.j. banga, the new head of the world bank that has started with a really great amount of energy and commitment. we'll talk about priorities and have good old friends back like matt damon who came to one of the earliest cgis and made a pledge to deal with water and has been fulfilling that pledge year after year. as i mentioned, jose andreas, the work that he does, and olay in a slen ska who we got to talk to at the conference you hosted in abu dhabi. she will be with us because we have a big initiative going on about relief and reconstruction in ukraine. there is so much, the president of google, leaders in women's reproductive rights and health. one of my favorite people, the

great artist and activist who talked very bluntly about what's happening inside of china and the challenges that that poses to the world and particularly to freedom and independent thought. so we have about 160 commitments lined up. you know, this is not the typical conference. this is one of the things that, you know, bill made clear when he started it. people come not just to meet each other which is really important, or maybe, you know, network with one another, listen to great speakers. they come to make commitments because as i said earlier, we want all hands on deck to show that we can actually solve problems together, and that's what cgi has been doing, and we've got a great, great program for next week that will just continue that effort. >> remarkable. former secretary of state, professor hillary clinton, thank you very much for being on this morning and the dean of columbia

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ohio. they're dealing with the after effects of an 1849 total ban on abortion in wisconsin and crazy republican laws and six-week bans in the state of florida. now donald trump comes up with this great idea, impeach joe biden when you got nothing on him.

what did the republicans do? like lemmings, they just go over the cliff, willie. it's almost like they want to lose, mika. >> stop it. >> that's what i don't understand. it's almost like they want to lose. what should i do? >> i respect your right to a diet coke. i go full sugar coke myself. coke zero is good, closest taste to regular coke. i also love dr. pepper out of waco, texas. don't sleep on that. it's a great american beverage. >> joe, you get huge props. that's a glass bottle coke. you could tell the difference in taste. it's a glass bottle coke. that's major league stuff. >> it's different, willie. you know what else tastes different for republicans right

now? >> what? >> actually winning. because they don't know how to win, willie. so i bring it up seriously. this impeachment thing is the stupidest, stupidest idea ever. let's move on from that, and let's instead do our own sort of version of a game show here, okay? let's bring in john heilemann. john, it's not really a version of a game show. as you can tell over the first five minutes of this hour, i really don't know what i'm talking about, but that's not different from the last 16 years. i'm just going to throw it to you. would you like to talk about mitt romney saying that the republicans that he works with don't respect or follow the constitution? or would you like to talk about david ignatius saying joe biden is too old to run for president

again? because those are really two big sort of almost political bombs that have gone off back to back. the romney stuff is so damning to my former party, so damning. you could talk about one or the other, or you could talk about both. >> i think i'll take door c, joe, but i'll try to do both briefly. they're both political bombs, and they're both in some respects inevitable. the notion that some a-list columnist, pundit would eventually come out with a column, given the tightness of the race and the problems donald

trump has. he's facing hundreds of years in prison. joe biden can't get out of the margin of error and they're basically in a dead hit. someone was going to write that piece. we've come to that moment. i'm not endorsing it. i'm just saying you follow that one in the cycle here. we're going to get there, and now we're there. mitt romney has been making his plans to exit the senate for a

while. he said those things in various ways, sometimes publicly, sometimes more briskly private privately. we knew he had reached the end of the road. i think in his case it' damning. mitt romney stood up in 2016 and tried to stop donald trump in the most aggressive way possible when he wasn't even nominee of the party, and mitt romney was not able to stop a candidate. never seen that before in 2016. romney got run over by a freight train and essentially his opposition to trump has done nothing to loosen trump's grip on the party so far. i love that mitt romney is

telling the truth, but he hasn't stopped donald trump. i'll say the same thing about the ignatius column. it has nothing to do with what joe biden is going to do or not do. joe biden is not going to be persuaded by a chorus telling him he's too old. it is sound and fury, signifying something, but not going to have an ultimate effect on joe biden's decision which he's already made about whether he's going to run. and if he runs he's going to be the standard-bearer of the democratic party. >> david ignatius is a dear friend of ours. he's a close friend of our family's, he visits us in the summer. dr. brzezinski and david

ignatius were very close. i say that just so everybody knows that. i also say that the fact that it was david ignatius who wrote that column, the people outside of washington don't follow the to and fro of washington, d.c. david ignatius is really one of the giants in washington media and washington opinion as far as washington thinkers go. the fact that david wrote that column is what makes that column so significant, and yet somebody very close to the president yesterday described it to me as the old guard, not understanding that washington doesn't work the way it used to work and said the old guard in washington, d.c. are like british officers sitting in the singapore

officers club, having their martinis late in the afternoon as the japanese soldiers are landing to start the invasion of singapore in world war ii, blissfully unaware of the reality that's now upon them. >> the "washington post" landed on a lot of people's steps in georgetown throughout the district of columbia, a lot of people were choking on their cornflakes. david has impact because of the stature he has. david could well fit in at the famous bar/club of singapore years ago, because that's the man he is. he's a man of stature and history. i can guarantee you this, it's had absolutely no impact on joseph r. biden, none

whatsoever. he's going to do exactly what he's going to do. i think the only thing that would bother him is off of this brief round-the-world trip he just took to india and hanoi and back to alaska and washington, d.c., is the fact that i have spoken to two people who were at meetings with him both in india and hanoi tell me the breadth of knowledge he exhibited in terms of foreign policy was astound astounding. >> let me just tell you, if you talk to anybody who actually knows what the hell they're talking about, they will say the same thing. again i've talked to foreign leaders. i've talked to people in cabinet of foreign leaders that have sat

down and talked to them. i've talked to top aides of some of our closest allies and adversaries. i've talked to people who have gone in and been briefed by this guy, especially on foreign policy. they all say anybody that's actually talked to him on foreign policy walks away going he knows his stuff better than anybody. so i just say that again because the stupidity, just the sheer stupidity of the coverage coming out of vietnam when the guy is working through the night, the guy is working around the clock, the guy is doing something in vietnam that nobody else has been able to do. as hillary said earlier, he's the first president who has

pivoted to asia. everybody this century said they were going to. nobody has. what he's done in asia, no other president has done in 20 or 25 years. we have boxed china in. it's fairly remarkable. what he's done in nato, the way he's maneuvered nato, making us first among equals. he's not talking down to anybody, but he's the leader that nato is looking to. he's the guy that made sure we did the deal with turkey that allowed finland and sweden to come into nato. we have 600 new miles of border along russia's border. and mike barnicle, he did it. i'm going to piss everybody off here. we've had presidents this century that have gotten into the white house because they thought it was a pretty cool thing to do. presidents have gotten into the white house for sometimes not the right reasons. presidents have gotten into the

white house that worked at 6:00, then wanted to go upstairs and watch espn all night. we actually got a guy that proves something that nobody in washington wants to talk about, experience matters. experience matters when you're running the most important government in the history of the world. experience matters, mike. if you want an outsider to do something in your life, get a dentist to do your brain surgery, okay? because that's your choice. if you want a dentist operating on your brain, you do it. but when you're dealing with my country, when you're dealing with my military, when you're dealing with my democracy, every american should say what i just

said. we want people with experience. we want people who know what the hell they're doing. we want people who weren't reality tv show hosts and failures in business. we want people that have been doing this their whole lives. all of this stuff that's happened. it hasn't just happened. it's happened because joe biden knows what the hell he's doing. and he makes it look easy because he knows what he's doing. >> do your job. that's what he does. do your job. >> let's bring in democratic senator mark warner of virginia, the chairman of the senate intelligence committee. it's good to have you on the show this morning. i want to ask you, senator -- >> i just heard the last 15 minutes of the conversation, so i guess i should be happy that i work in a place where at age 68

i'm basically young middle-aged. >> you're a newbie. at age 68 you're doing just fine. >> senator, follow up. oh, we want outsiders, we get people who don't know what they're doing. talk about the importance of you in your important job dealing with people who have experience. >> i'm proud of the fact i brought 20 years of business, i had a pretty goods run as governor. i'm proud of the fact i've been here for 14 years and shared the intelligence committee, which is the last fully functioning bipartisan committee. i think that makes a difference. i heard the tease was going to be i was going to talk about the new bromance between kim jong-un and putin. remember, north korea has always been called the hermit kingdom. think how far vladimir putin has

fallen. if the one guy he can go on the world stage with and vladimir putin can't even go to the g20. it's the importance of america not walking away from ukraine at this point. for 70 years the united states prepared to take on the. soviet union. the ukrainians had taken what was the world's second best military, the russians, and made them only the second best military potentially in ukraine. no cost to nato members in lives and huge progress. secondly, if we were to walk away from ukraine right now, who would ever trust america again? biden resuscitated nato, expanded it, brought in south

korea and australia in supporting our ukrainian friends. if we walked out now, no one would ever trust us again and they have a right not to trust us. this is the part i just don't get with some of the guys saying let's pull the plug. they say we don't care about ukraine and putin but they're concerned about president xi and china. people don't understand if putin is successful in ukraine, that gives a green light to xi in terms of his aspirations in taiwan and around asia, they really don't deserve to be weighing in on foreign policy. >> mitt romney announced he's retiring yesterday. i'm curious what the senate is losing with his retirement in about a year and a half and what you think it says about the republican party that guys like mitt romney and rob portman and

richard burr and roy blunt have broo looked around and said i'm not sure this is my party anymore. >> we got together and said we've got to do one more covid bill under trump, the 799 bill. candidly, we weren't seeing the movement from the traditional sources. then that same group came together on the chips bill, the infrastructure bill, the electoral count act, the guns bill, you name it. mitt romney has been in every one of those sessions. he's been fair, rational and conservative. anyone who questions mitt romney's basic conservativeness doesn't know the guy. it's a great personal loss to

me, it's a great loss to the institution, but you can't throw in the towel. the fact is the worst thing that could happen is when americans tune out. the thing we've found in terms of some of the data coming out of russia is 65% of the russian people don't believe there's anything they can do to change their system. that is the path to putin and authoritarianism. my biggest fear is not even donald trump in and of itself. it is the fact when americans say, you know, i'm going to tune it all out and not be engaged. that's the way to facilitate authoritarian leaders and wannabes like donald trump. >> let's put your senate intelligence hat back on. we've talked about nato and the need to remain in ukraine and the biden administration's work on both. from your point of view, the

biden administration, the president specifically, his work in south korea, japan, now vietnam and australia to help bring up further defense, both political and diplomatic, against the threat of china. from your point of view, how is that going? >> first of all, i think the meeting at camp david between japan, south korea and the united states where we brought those three leaders together, it may have gotten ten minutes of national news coverage. that is historic. if you look at the traditional enmity between japan and the south koreans going back, japan occupied south korea, the whole korean peninsula through most of the 20th century. the fact that he brought those folks together and there is now a partnership, that is game changing. the rise of india and india

being a critical country, india's time has arrived. i think we have to worry about making sure we maintain democratic institutions in india. but bringing india in, the fact that an american president came back and elevated the status with vietnam, those are the kind of points on the board that may not get the headlines when we've got shouting, talking heads, but they make america stronger. china is a great nation. this is not an attack on the chinese people or chinese americans. it is the ccp and president xi's authoritarian regime that we ought to fear. but we've never faced a competitor like this. you look at china's investments in a.i. and 5g and quantum computing. the challenge for china will be the race for technology dominance in the 21st century.

>> democratic senator mark warner of virginia. >> did he say we drive him crazy? >> we do. [indiscernible] >> that did or didn't drive you crazy? [ laughter ] >> it's good to see you. thank you so much for being on the show this morning. >> he was being a politician,a nice man. >> something that literally tasted like burnt dirt. he said this is wonderful. >> john heilemann, what questions would you like me to ask you? this is free form "morning joe." >> put a pin on the conversation today. >> thank you for the video.

>> well, that's the question, joe. the good pop quiz here today which member of talking heads is enamored of mika brzezinski? >> you know, john, stop making sense is now coming to theaters in 4k. it is going to be an extraordinary experience, one of the best rock movies every made. you're always there. you're always there for every huge pop culture landmark. you were there and you saw it and you talked to members of the talking heads. you found out that one is a know your value fan. who is it? >> that's right. last night at the brooklyn academy of music, second time

they've premiered the movie, the band got together for the first time in 20 years and talked to spike lee, then they got together for the second time in 20 years and talked to me last night. we had a great time. people loved the movie. if you can see it in imax, it will blow your mind completely. i was approached by a very eager tina weymouth who said she loves mika brzezinski. she said she watches "morning joe," loves mika. joe, said nothing nice about you at all, but didn't say anything mean either. she's a massive fan. i think you're doing great. you should consider that a victory. i think jerry harrison is actually a fan of yours. she said know your value is an incredible accomplishment. she said go tell mika that know your value, i love her for know your value. i for the longest time had know

your value. hats off to mika. >> wow. i am blown away. >> she said she needed to hear that message. >> i love know your value. thank you. thank you very much. and coming up on "morning joe," elon musk was on capitol hill yesterday to discuss concerns over artificial intelligence and the man who wrote the book on the billionaire tech ceo walter isaacson returns to "morning joe" to explain the risk musk says a.i. presents. we'll be right back. k says a.i. presents we'll be right back. trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes -

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we don't want to be in that situation where we're fighting regulations even though there's a safety thing. we can't wait for millions of people to die in auto accidents. you know, it's important to elevate the question here. the question is really one of civilizational risk. it's not like one group versus another one group of humans versus another. this is something that's potentially risky for all humans everywhere. >> that is elon musk in washington after his meeting with a bipartisan group of senators on the future of artificial intelligence. joining us again is walter isaacson. his latest biography is titled "elon musk." >> we saw elon on display yesterday talking about the future of ai. how do you balance the genius that he clearly has that's there

with the personality that you describe as -- forgive my french -- an a-hole? you can be both. how do you get at that balance? >> one of the interesting things about musk is he really has multiple personalities. you can see him yesterday praising chuck schumer, meeting with chris coons, trying to handle this. then late at night, he'll go dark and send out some pretty bad postings on "x." the question of any biographer is this question of conflicting personalities. you want to decry the stark strands. you don't want to praise anybody who's being a jerk, to use the euphemism from your word. i think i use the a-word in the book because it's a valid word. if you could eliminate all those

dark strands, would you have the same fabric? no. on the other hand, does that justify the dark strands? no. so the book is a narrative. some people say, hey, you should render more judgment. no. this is something you can see in all your life, people who are dark and light. you've got to figure out as you read this story what do you make of them, and same with steve jobs? >> walter, i'm about a third of the way through the book and i already have like multiple things that have gone through my mind reading about this guy who's clearly a genius on a level very few human beings are. he's also, to my mind, clearly a damaged individual. i want to ask you about his

father. how much damage did he inflict? >> when he was a young kid, musk was socially awkward, which is a bit of a euphemism for just his inability to relate emotionally. also a scrawny kid who got beat up a lot. he went to wilderness camp and got beaten up. next time he went to wilderness camp, he learned to punch in the nose. his father, after he gets beaten up at school on the playground so badly he had to go to the hospital, when he comes back home, he had to stand in front of his father for an hour and a half while his father calls him stupid and berates him and takes

the side of the person who beat him up. when he goes into what one of his girlfriends grimes calls demon mode or his second wife talulah who said at night he would be vomiting from the stress. >> walter, it's interesting. i wanted to ask you a question about henry ford. it's interesting that yesterday we saw elon musk go into congress to testify. my question that i didn't get in last time, can i ask about henry ford, a guy who's been called an anti-semite, a guy who shocked

america on so many fronts when he actually went before congress and testified. so many people were so shocked and bewilders like, this is the guy that created the modern age? you're right. these geniuses and these people who think differently, these people who bend the arc of history are not like you and me and do carry a lot of demons with them. nobody's excusing it. we're just saying in part those demons are what drives not just elon musk, but henry ford and a lot of other geniuses before. >> you're right. and we don't excuse it. you'll also have to see the complexities. musk is not just one personality. he's meeting next week with

netanyahu to discuss anti-semitism, but then he'll repost the worst anti-semite street on his platform "x." i think you have these conflicting things. i'm glad he's meeting with netanyahu to discuss anti-semitism and he's going to, i hope, try to clean up his platform. but the platform he has shows those dark strands as well as the drive he has. everything he touches has his personality on it. >> walter, when he says something like he did yesterday about taiwan and china, he said taiwan is like hawaii to the united states, an integral part of china. the taiwanese government came out and said no, no, that's not at all the way this works and we are free people. does he know what he's doing? does he enjoy being a lightning rod? is he just throwing things out

cheaply? is that a genuine belief he holds? >> it's impulsive. obviously he has a lot of business in china, but i'm not even sure it was business driven. he believes our china policy has been very nuanced. i do think that he has a great fear as probably we all should that there will be a provoked conflict over taiwan, whiching i don't think is necessary. >> given the fact that it's said he overpaid for twitter and everything that came with it, does he regret buying twitter? >> he thought this deal could

help me take this platform and make the everything app i've always wanted to have and how exciting it's going to be. at the moment he's so much more focused on artificial intelligence to some point he feels that the platform "x" is a bit of a distraction. >> the new biography "elon musk" on sale now. we'll continue to dig through it with our good friend walter isaacson. still ahead, some tv talk shows are returning amid the month-long writer strike. the latest on that straight ahead on "morning joe." ght ahead on "morning joe. rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. ( ♪♪ ) the first fda-approved rsv vaccine. arexvy is used to prevent

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david: i'm david goldberg, a bilingual elementary school teacher and president of the california teachers association. as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. jessie: they're called community schools. david: where parents and families, students and educators are making decisions as one. damien: it's a real sense of community. leslie: we saw double-digit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. david: it's an innovation that's transforming our public schools. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education.

your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire dr. brzezinski also believed that one of his most enduring contributions to international affairs was shaping america's

rising scholars and practitioners, including president carter, who described himself as an eager student and ian, mark, mika, all of whom have strived to bring us closer to the american principle. >> that was secretary of state antony blinken yesterday at johns hopkins school of advanced international studies. the recognition of the legacy of mika's dad, he's the world's most preeminent thinker to address the growing problems of our time. secretary blinken spoke about the power and purpose of american democracy. >> we find ourself at an inflection point. one era is ending, a new one is beginning. the decisions that we make now will shape the future for

decades to come. the united states is leading in this critical period from a position of strength. strength grounded in both our humility and our competence. >> i know the brzezinski family is so grateful to johns hopkins and especially grateful to secretary blinken for being there yesterday. he was the inaugural thinker in the university's new state of the art building. now to the growing cost of the hollywood strikes impacting tens of thousands of jobs, costing the industry billions of dollars. >> reporter: a big question in hollywood, when will high-profile talk shows come back, getting some answers this morning amid the ongoing writer and actor strike.

bill maher announing realtime is coming back. adding the writers have important issues that i sympathize with and i hope they are addressed to their satisfaction, but they are not the people people with issues, problems and concerns. many daytime talk shows are back in production from "the view" to "drew barrymore" and "the talk." the view and barrymore's show have pledged not to use wga members. the actress herself saying i own this choice and she's in compliance with strike rules. with no resolution, the viewer will also pay a price this fall. with many of your favorite tv shows and movies missing in action, dozens of productions

shuttered. new seasons of popular shows like "stranger things" now delayed for months. production on the "game of thrones" prequel has been shut down. back in may wga writers walked off the job followed by sag actors in july. the battle here over wage increases, residuals in the streaming era and the use of artificial intelligence. sag-aftra president fran drescher planning to stay the course. >> this is the moment that is going to change the future. >> reporter: insiders say expect lots of reruns and reality tv to take their place. >> is it snake oil? >> that's what happened in the

last writers strike 16 years ago when reality shows were born, dominating the ratings and revolutionizing what we watch forever. >> not really an end in sight at this point. coming up next here a growing debate over the environment taking shape on the campaign trail. the questions now being raised by young voters in the robert mueller party about climate change 37 ers in the robert mueller party about climate change 3 i saw myself in a photograph. and we were all smiling, and i looked closer, i'm back, and i got botox® cosmetic. the lines were so prominent it's all i saw in the photograph, so now when i take photos, and i see myself in photos, its- it's me, i just have fewer lines. botox® cosmetic is fda-approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better.

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on the campaign trail raising some tough questions within the republican party. joining us now nbc news now anchor our good friend morgan radford. >> we heard this on the republican primary debate stage and polling shows this overall, republicans less likely to see climate change as a threat compared to their democratic counterparts. one progressive group counted 139 members of congress who refused to acknowledge the scientific evidence of human-caused climate change. for young voters across party lines, climate is a top issue, which is why some young conservatives are now trying to get older members of their party to get on board or risk losing their vote. >> i'm the only person on the stage who isn't bought and paid for so i can say this. the climate change agenda is a hoax. >> it's a campaign trail talking point we've heard before. >> environmentalists talk about all this nonsense. >> reporter: republican presidential primary candidates casting doubt or diminishing the effects of man made climate change. >> i've always rejected the

politicization of the weather. >> reporter: but there's a growing political faction that's pushing back, and it's coming from inside the republican party. >> are you both conservative? >> yes. >> are you both registered republicans? >> yes. >> students alexander diaz and ava surewood are mebd members of a group focused on environmental protection through what it calls limited government and market-based values. >> the discourse surrounding the climate and energy altogether has been taken over by the left, and the left is their whole discourse is filled with alarmism. people don't want like doomism. i think we need to be optimistic about different climate solutions. i think that's where the disconnect really is. >> are you saying the republicans care as much about the environment as democrats. >> a lot of young republicans do care just as much as those on the left do on this issue. we fall apart when it comes to

the fact that our conservatism is going to take precedence and we're going to be hesitant to expand the size of government. >> so the way you solve it is through states and local governments. >> their fears that the republican party doesn't care about climate change. >> diaz spoke to many young conservatives at the last primary debate. >> what has the response been like? >> the response has been kind of big. i think it started an important debate in the republican party as well as in this campaign specifically in that young people do care about this issue. >> what happens if republicans, for example, don't speak to younger voters in a language they understand about climate change? >> i think that you run the risk of losing young voters, which are becoming a bigger section of the electorate. you risk losing them if you can't speak to a way and understand what their positions are on energy and the environment and the climate at large. >> the polls agree. the most recent gallop poll shows 70% of young republicans

worry either a great deal or fair amount about the environment and 44% of those young republicans say we're already seeing the effects of global warming. compared to just 29% of older republicans over 55. it's a trend republican pollsters like jim hobart say the candidates are seeing too. >> you're certainly seeing the shift. i also think it's important to see that it's a slow shift. >> for republicans, especially if they're running in a general election, the best thing to do is focus on, hey, look, we need to continue to have oil and gas be a meaningful part and oil, gas, and coal a meaningful part of our energy portfolio. it also makes sense to be looking at some of these alternative sources like wind and solar. >> an approach that can be harder to find on the campaign trail. >> are you hearing republican candidates talk about this stuff, about climate change, the environment, are you hearing that? >> i don't think we're hearing enough. >> and what happens if older generations of republicans don't get on board? >> i think we're seeing more and more how republicans are struggling to win elections,

like we saw in the midterms. we saw historic youth turnout, and they broke for democrats by about 30 points. that red wave that never happened, a lot of that has to do with young people voting for democrats on issues like climate change. more and more older republicans are having to grapple with this fact if they want to stay electorally relevant, they have to do something about this issue. >> a changing political environment in a changing climate. >> so it's interesting, when you drilled down into specific policies, you can start to see the ways that this movement could start having impact beyond the next election and really outlast this election cycle. another recent pew poll found half of all republicans supported some kind of tax. to put that 64% sort of in larger context and perspective, that's the same level of support among republicans for presidential candidate donald trump. >> i guess the question, morgan, because there are issues like gave marriage, climate change,

guns. these kids have grown up in an era of school shootings, are the older politicians hearing them? >> they're saying they're listening. they're not necessarily repackaging and regurgitating that information in the language and ways that these young people understand it. these young people, they're sharp and ready to see some change. >> we saw it there. >> do republicans recognize the fact that the temperature when it goes up to 95, you know, in february, it affects everyone, not just democrats? >> it's interesting. we actually asked about some of the biden administration policies. we said are you giving the biden administration credit? >> we see some of the changes that are beneficial to the environment. they're saying there's so much federal backlog when it comes to the red tape to getting these policies pushed through and that forces people to go to places like china which arguably has resources that aren't as good for the environment. >> they want the free market to handle the problem. so interesting. nbc's morgan radford. that does it for us this morning, we will see you right back here tomorrow morning.

ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. the coverage after a quick final break.

♪i'm hearing different ways for me to screen for colon cancer.♪ ♪it's time to use my voice,♪ ♪i've got a choice, more than one answer.♪ ♪i sat down with my doc.♪ we had a talk. ♪knew just what to say.♪ ♪i asked for cologuard and did it my way.♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪i did it my way!♪ good morning, it's 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york, and we're going to get right to our breaking news this morning. a live televised hearing set to begin any moment now in the sprawling election interference case in georgia, and again, these are live images, hence why you're seeing the c