one of the things it's doing, wages are beating prices. wages are growing faster than inflation. that's the case and it makes a big difference when you're trying to make ends meet. that's the breathing room the president is talking about. i understand those poll results. i see them all the time. if you ask people about bidenomics, if you ask them about the specifics of lower prescription drug costs, investing in the manufacturing sector, those poll around 80%. >> the uaw wants a 40% rise in wages and a cost of living adjustment. jared, thank you very much. that does it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ >> it's 4:00 in new york. an extraordinary step at the justice department. federal prosecutors have

indicted president biden's sole surviving son, hunter biden, on three criminal counts. quote, two counts are tied to biden allegedly filing a form claiming he was not using illegal drugs at the time he purchased a revolver. the third count alleges he purchased a firearm while using a narcotic. it's a legal saga filled with twists and turns. it's one that comes with deep personal anguish for the president and his entire family. the charges were brought by special counsel david weiss who was granted special counsel status by attorney general merrick garland. that was after a plea deal for hunter biden collapsed in court. according to the terms of that deal, hunter biden would have pled guilty to two misdemeanor tax charges and entered a diversion agreement which would

have led to the gun charge being dropped. the tax charges were not brought against hunter biden today. regarding the gun charges, "new york times" reports that it is, quote, only sporadically brought against first-time offenders, particularly ones not accused of using the weapon in a crime. the nature of the charge could play a major role in the case. mr. biden's lawyers have argued the charge will be thrown out because a series of supreme court and appeal court decisions have cast doubt on the constitutionality of the federal government putting conditions on firearm purchases. that's where we start the hour. nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli is with us and former u.s. attorney harry litman is here and "new york times" reporter mike

schmidt. mike, the plea deal gets blown up at the same time house republicans are annihilating the justice department over the nature of that plea deal. today the newly appointed special counsel charges hunter biden. explain how all those dots are connected. >> it's a good question. the hunter biden story is always a difficult one because it has so many different tentacles. they're all their own language and it's hard to figure out how they all relate. how does a purchase of a gun relate to foreign business dealings? >> or the tax charges which were the substance of the plea deal. >> correct. david weiss was looking at a range of issues in hunter biden's life. he was looking at whether he was an unregistered foreign agent. he was looking at his taxes. in the course of that wide ranging investigation this issue came up about his purchase of a

gun. in 2018 he went to a gun shop in delaware. he has told others that he remembered going to shooting ranges with his dead brother and that he wanted to buy a gun for some reason because of that. the charge is whether at that period of time, in the lead up to that, around then was he addicted to drugs? this allegation came up in the course of this broader investigation that was being done by the u.s. attorney's office in delaware. they dug into that and pushed forward with it. when the initial plea deal is made back in june, there were sort of two parts of it. one part was where he was going to plead guilty to the misdemeanor tax charges. in another part he was going to agree to a diversion agreement,

which is a legalese way of saying we're going to charge you, but not prosecute you as long as you're behaved and you don't use drugs or try to buy a gun again. that was the deal in place. when they go to the judge to get it approved, the judge has all these questions, particularly about this gun charge and the deal then falls apart in the days that follow. just a couple days ago david weiss said we're going to bring the gun charge before the end of the month. it's not a real surprise, but it's obviously extraordinary when the justice department goes forward with the prosecution of the president's son. >> you've done some reporting on how questionable the gun charge is in light of recent supreme court rulings when it comes to states' abilities to enact and enforce gun safety laws. >> hunter biden's lawyers under

chris clark who was his lawyer until a few weeks ago, they went to the justice department during the investigation and they said, hey, look, there have been a series of appeals courts and supreme court decisions that raise questions about the constitutionality of this and this charge will be thrown out. this will not stand because the law is moving in favor of gun rights activists, which is obviously the complete opposite -- >> of joe biden's position. >> -- of joe biden's position and the position of the democratic party. it's one of these big criticisms of the court from the left. they have leaned into this gun rights argument to say that this charge will not stand. the thing that i'm most intrigued by in all of this is that hunter biden being a nonviolent first offender in

this case, it's hard to think that a judge would do -- would really put him behind bars for a long time. >> for a gun charge that has some real questions in terms of recent supreme court rulings. >> well, i think that -- in terms of the legal questions, the justice department is in a riskier place because there's some people who think that the law is sort of moving toward the second amendment advocates. what's going to happen here is that -- is the judge going to end up in a different place than we would have been as part of the original plea agreement. >> he was going to plead guilty to two tax charges. >> he can go on trial and be found not guilty of anything. >> or he could walk in and plead guilty. a lot of times when you have someone in a situation that hunter biden is in and there's not a lot of people that have found themselves dealing with

justice, there are some legal experts who will tell you that the result of that, if he were to plead guilty, could possibly be a judge saying, look, you'll get probation. you need to not use drugs and you can't own a gun again. that would be the same exact place that we would have been in had the original plea agreement from the summer stood up. >> harry lipman, it's never uninteresting to me to put things together that happen at the same time. we don't know the cause and effect. we don't know if doj's annihilation of the plea agreement that had been worked, we don't know cause and effect. we know they happened at the same time, full stop. we know from everything you've tweeted and others that the charge the doj has brought today against hunter biden isn't one

they really seem to historically like to take to trial. why do you think this happened today? >> yeah, and that is the key point. i know you cited mike's reporting that it's sporadic. as best i can tell, it's nonexistent in a case like hunter biden. yes, there have been a lot of twists and turns, but only two here. i think we -- it may be hard to know, but it's not hard to suspect. two things happened. the plea unravelled, but for reasons having nothing to do with hunter biden. really just awkward lawyering by the doj. there was the outcry that you detailed. that's all we know. david weiss was appointed special counsel in a way that made it even clearer that garland was going to keep his hands off. to me it kind of stinks because we have charges brought that would not otherwise have been brought and as far as we can

guess -- the only thing we can point to is the outcry on the hill and from others. it's been very earnest. we just learned today they had to set up a special squad in the fbi because so many agents were fielding threats from people who thought that the bureau gave hunter biden kind of kid glove treatment. it's hard to see anything other than that outcry. in terms of the second amendment arguments, he's got two counts of lying on a form, one of possessing. that last one might be vulnerable, but i don't see a world in which second amendment rights are held to permit lying on this sort of form. his lawyer, abby lowell will be making strong defenses. i don't see those firstoverturn.

he may be going to trial in the middle of an election which serves trump's purposes very well. >> harry, let me put the charges up. count one false statement and purchase of a firearm. that's described as lying on that form. two, false statement related to information required to be kept by federal firearms licensed dealer. then three, possession of a firearm by a person who is an unlawful user or addicted to controlled substance. how often do those three charges get made against someone who doesn't use a weapon or discharge a weapon or otherwise carry out a crime with the weapon in question? >> as best as i can tell -- i really looked into this seriously. never. maybe in one or two cases where there was independent reason to know the person who had lied on the form was a very dangerous customer and this was what they had on him. if that's the core reason that

this engendered such suspicion -- remember david weiss asked for special counsel status and got it. he's effectively operating as a counsel of one. this is the thing that way back when, when we had independent counsels, people were worried about it. if this was your sole mission, you would find a way to bring the charges. as best i can tell it's never brought and certainly in this case -- remember, he holds it for 11 days. his girlfriend throws it away. there's not much criminal activity here. it's not a charge that would have been brought as far as i've been able to see. >> mike memoli, harry lipman is more authoritative than i am. i too searched to see if there

were any individuals charged with these three crimes that weren't charged with a crime carried out with a weapon. i couldn't find any. mike reported that earlier this year david weiss appeared willing to forego any prosecution of mr. biden at all and his office came close to ending the investigation without a guilty plea on any charges. his position relayed through staff changed in the spring around the time a pair of irs officials accused the justice department of hamstringing the investigation. david weiss then demanded biden plead guilty to tax offenses which aren't charged today. what on earth does joe biden think of merrick garland's justice department today? >> nicolle, you won't be surprised by this. we haven't got an official comment from the white house, from president biden about this development today. it's been the posture of this white house at every turn,

whether in the legal woes involving his son or the many investigations into the former president, his potential opponent next year, that there's a fire wall between the president and the justice department. on earth too today we heard in the last few minutes president biden deliver his most direct and most searing criticism of donald trump that we've heard so far. he called the former president the emperor of death. he called him donald hoover trump. this was a speech focussed on the most important issue in the presidential campaign, for the economy. for the moment, this is being waged on earth one, about the different legal investigations one into his family and one into his potential opponent. you used a word at the top of the show that was appropriate,

anguish. this was a moment the president thought would be avoided. there was announcement in june of an agreement with prosecutors that to this president he hoped would end the legal cloud over his son. he knew politics would be a potential liability here, that his son's legal woes would be a feature of a republican campaign, no matter what happened in the courtroom. this is something that's weighing on the president at this moment, not necessarily from a legal perspective or political perspective, but from a personal perspective. eight years ago at this time joe biden was wondering about running for president and he decided not to run citing the issues around the death of his son's beau.

he then said no one should run for president if they can't give their full self to the job. there are people close to the president who worry about what this is weighing on the president. he's showing no sign of anything but going full force on this campaign. today is an indication of that. he's going to give a major speech about the threats democracy, potentially at the mccain center in arizona, a significant and symbolic venue. for allies, for people close to the president, this is an unwelcomed distraction and has them concerned. >> mike, i heard exactly what you are reporting, that the -- to the degree there's anguish -- i think the department of justice has a much steeper hill to climb legally than it would appear the charged individual does. i say this regardless of who is

charged of these crimes. hunter biden's struggle with addiction is something he wrote a book about. we talked about it before. i know you've read it. his pain is the concern that this creates more anguish for his son, an actual concern about the lights shining on his son hunter. what sense do you have of how that impacts how they talk about it or whether they talk about it at all? >> what's interesting in hunter biden's words he wrote about this that during the runup to the 2020 when they would discuss what they knew was coming -- it was a decision four years ago, the president's decision to run for president that they talked and agonized about. hunter biden wrote he and his father would take turns asking one another whether this was something to prepare for.

they would take turns apologizing to one another because of the ways a modern campaign was weighing on their personal lives. this is two men worrying about each other and not themselves. we've seen, against all likely political advice from his own campaign team, from fellow democrats, that he should keep his son at arm's length that he's drawn him closer. he attended a state dinner. he's been traveling with the president on trips foreign and domestic. they spent some personal time in lake tahoe as a family. this is a president that said the family is the beginning, the end, the middle, it's everything. you'll continue to see that on the part of this president. he will keep his son first. he's concerned about his son staying on that path to recovery

that he's been on for several years and hoping to see him through that. >> this is a political question for you mike memoli. the bet that republicans are taking is that no one understands this is your baby. this is who you held as a baby and they grew up to have an addiction. the bet on republicans is that the american public won't understand that. the president seems to be saying i'm a father. if you're a mother or father and you have a child struggling with addiction, you would do the same thing. i know it wasn't your intention to shame me. i'm shamed by the fact that the lead story from the white house is the president's speech on the economy. how do they deal for fighting with the spotlight and the media space with this other activities and the other rings of the circus? >> i think one of the real

decision makers in the 2024 campaign is where do americans who every poll shows have unfavorable views of both men, donald trump and joe biden, go. do they vote for one or the other? do they vote at all? do they vote for an independent candidate? the biden team has a small campaign in wilmington. they're eyeing that part of the electorate very closely, as are some of the super pacs affiliated with the president. they're trying to understand what those voters are motivated by at this point next year. it's 419 days until the election, not that anybody is counting. they continue to make the case and believe, perhaps hope more than believe that this will be a campaign decided on the issues. i was just listening to comments from then former vice president joe biden talking about the 2016 campaign. he lamented to the fact that as

that campaign was wrapping up that hillary clinton was asked most often about her own legal issues and not enough about the issues. he's trying to put the issues front and center. it's a difficult media environment and a difficult political environment as well. >> it's interesting. i appreciate you, mike, for putting that on the table. it's important. i want to ask you, mike, is hunter biden -- does he want to go to trial? will he go to trial and leave a jury of his peers to decide? >> my sense was that hunter biden wanted to plead guilty and put all this behind himself. that's the best thing for the president as well. i think that at that hearing at the court in delaware in july, i think there was a bit of a change in calculation on their part. i think from the biden side they believe the government backed

out of a deal that they had agreed to. there was a more willingness to take the gloves off and try to take on -- >> legally. >> legally to take on the government and to take on the justice department in court. there probably could have some sort of deal cut in the aftermath of that hearing. that deal never happened. both sides signalled they were going to go after each other. i think that -- i think that for hunter biden he was able to walk into court and see that everything didn't -- the world didn't collapse around him and there's more of a sense among some of the folk that is i talk to that they think that hunter biden could go to trial and that he would be okay with that. >> i guess my question for you, harry, is you said the justice department has, quote, never brought these charges against someone who hasn't carried out

another crime. that seems like a nightmare scenario for the justice department. it seems like a disaster scenario for doj. >> it's a problem. it's not a disaster under the law, nicolle. that's the different things -- he's got a very aggressive lawyer. his lawyer abby lowell just sued someone for forging his laptop just a couple days ago. basically the department's decision about when it follows its own policies is not really something that a court will review. you can expect lowell to come in and say it's malicious prosecution. for that you need to show it's in response to the assertion of constitutional rights. that doesn't quite fit. you can see them come in on the second amendment. that maybe doesn't fit, especially for the first two charges. yes, she's going to be aggressive and will push back harden in the public arena.

the things that make this suspect by and large are not things that have real legal purchase in front of a judge to try to dismiss an indictment. that's the rub. to mike's point, you know, he was ready to do this and he wouldn't have to go to jail for it. the prosecution still might occur in new york and l.a. now it is different. he's kind of emboldened. the big point is all this stuff -- you noted the anguish of the biden family as we see the republicans flailing for some impeachment effort. it's all related to hunter biden. it's all tied up in that political blew. >> mike memoli, thank you for broadening our conversation and your body of reporting on the biden family. grateful to have you here for that. mike and harry, stick around. when we come back, before today's indictment, exclusive new reporting from nbc news on

the very real active threats of violence those prosecutors and agents who have been investigating hunter biden have been facing. plus, the nearly two dozen people who voted in favor for charges against donald trump, they're now being thrust back into the case. a dramatic hearing today at a courthouse in fulton county. experts sounding the alarm that elections in this country are under tremendous stress and there should be an all hands on deck action to safeguard our democracy. what that looks and more after a quick break. don't go anywhere. eak. don't go anywhere.

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some alarming new reporting on what has become a dangerous feature of our current state of politics, the threat of violence looming over every aspect of justice system. that is thanks to and largely because of threats of revenge from the ex president and his allies. reporting reveals, prosecutors and fbi agents involved in the hunter biden investigation reveal threats have been made. where would they get this idea? >> i think the fbi's running interference for the bidens, for the democrats for years and years. >> the political bias that is

just running rampant on the 7th floor of the fbi building. they could be sweeping this under the rug. >> how can you not believe there's a two-tiered justice system? >> the people running the department were picked by joe biden. they're doing his bidding, happily so. >> happens every night. sorry we had to show you that. it ties to a threat of violence. the situation facing law enforcement officials has reportedly become so grave that nbc can report this, quote, the threats have prompted the fbi to create a stand alone unit to investigate and mitigate them. it is all part of a wider trend impacting anyone accused by trump and his allies in the media and otherwise of being part of the deep state conspiracy to corrupt the justice system. nbc news reports threats to fbi agents and facilities have more than doubled. there were more from october to march than the previous 12 months. the pace of threats increased after the fbi investigations of

trump became public last summer. at times the lives of fbi agents have been put in very real danger. from nbc, quote, a source familiar with the matter said some fbi personnel have been victims of swatting in which someone calls in a false report that leads to armed police rushing to a home. joining our conversation former fbi agent pete struck and mary ann mccord. pete, i imagine this hits you in the gut and the brain thinking about how to protect and strategize. tell me your gut reaction first. >> well, nicolle, this is predictable. it's been brewing for sometime. it's terrible to see. going back into the trump administration there were many of us who were the subject of these threats. i mean, we see this information

coming out of the justice department, but i have a simple question. of all these threats and this new entire unit that according to director wray he had to set up, of all these threats how many are coming from anyone associated with left-wing causes? compare that to how many are coming from those on the right. it's people upset the fbi isn't investigating hunter biden enough and they're upset donald trump is being prosecuted or the people around donald trump or the proud boys or the oath keeper, they're concerned about that. let's be brave enough to take a stand and say where are the threats coming from. my suspicion is it's overwhelmingly coming from the right. we need to start putting a name to that. it's horrible enough that agents and prosecutors and judges are worried about their physical safety.

it's worrisome enough that senator romney claims he's paying $5,000 a month for security for his family. let's look at these threats and put a name to them and where they're coming from. there's more to it and i think the data is there. i would like to be able to say specifically where is this coming from to we can attack those things head on and have them stop. this is unacceptable. >> mary, the last sworn testimony from christopher wray puts them on the right side of the spectrum and the known political violence cases are against paul pelosi from someone who adhered to the election lies repeated by donald trump, the three shootings in new mexico are from a big lie. the data that is public facing all suggests they're all on the right. >> yeah, it's true. what i think is -- this illustrates a gap in our laws. if you identify the person making the threat or engaging in

the agent of violence like the attack on paul pelosi, of course that person has been apprehended, you can prosecute that person. as you indicated, these are people motivated by others who are lying about things, right, others who are stoking up and inciting violence and by and large those others go scot-free. we lack not only criminal mechanisms for holding people accountable who are really responsible for providing the narrative -- the false narrative that those who will act on that narrative, about on that narrative through threats and actual violence, we lack the right criminal tools to hold those people accountable. we also in many ways lack the right civil tools. we've seen defamation be used successfully in a few cases. rudy giuliani's definition of ruby freeman and shane moss, the election workers in georgia, that is going to be resolving

with large financial penalties assessed against mr. giuliani. there's limits to what defamation can do too. you have to have a named person you're defaming. when you broadly say the department of justice is weaponized and the fbi is weaponized, that's not going to be specific enough to use some of these tools. what we're seeing is this is just proliferating and spreading and, you know, we've had election workers like ruby freeman and shane moss who have been threatened and harassed, including many republican election officials, republican board of supervisors, maricopa county. many of those people are deciding they can't run again. we've had teachers harassed, school board members. now we have prosecutors,

including prosecutors who are prosecuting hunter biden. it just keeps spreading. i feel silly saying congress needs to take a hard look at this because of lot of this is coming from people in congress. we have gaps here. we can to reconcile that. >> no one's going anywhere. they are naming names. i want to show you that and we'll talk about a key player in the hunter biden and how they have become a major named target in the right's threats. stay with us. stronger communiti. ♪♪ we're not just any bank. we are citi. ♪♪ there's never a dull moment for the nelsons'. fifth generation montana ranchers.

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after hearing him speak for hours, we all come to the obvious conclusion someone way up in doj, maybe the assistant u.s. attorney leslie wolf, at the direction of the attorney general himself was protecting hunter biden. >> you know, the whistle blowers refer to asa wolf. she supposedly told them don't ask about the big guy and resisted efforts to look into storage units and accused of tipping off the biden team. >> you have the assistant u.s. attorney leslie wolf who said that she tipped off biden's lawyers when they were getting ready to do something. >> cause and effect. nbc news, quote, prosecutor leslie wolf who has been a part of david weiss' team

investigating hunter biden got such a barrage of threats she sought security help from the u.s. marshal service. according to unreleased testimony to the house judiciary committee last week. two irs agents accused wolf of making decisions favorable to biden. it's now life threatening work to be inside the u.s. attorney's office investigating hunter biden. >> the thing about leslie wolf is she was the point of contact for the biden legal team and the person who had come to the deal they made in june. she was also named extensively by the whistle blower and by the time that july comes around and they're heading into that hearing, leslie wolf is nowhere to be seen on the case. there's a new lawyer who comes in. on the day of the hearing leslie wolf, who had knew the

intricacies of the deal and cut the deal is sitting in the courtroom, but not at the table. when they're trying to figure out what this deal means in front of this judge as the judge is raising questions about it, the person who probably knew it the best, for reasons that remain unclear and that came after she was named by the whistle blower, was not there. when we looked at correspondences, there was a major breakdown in july and she was not a part of it. >> i wonder if the department of justice is telling the house judiciary committee now about the security required to protect leslie wolf's physical safety. they're trying to create a paper record. they're told this is false and they're told it's dangerous. are they trying to head down a

road of trying to be able to illustrate the fox broadcast is falsities? >> it's totally obnoxious, maybe illegal for them to be waving her name around in public, maybe inciting what's happening. i agree with mary ann and relate it to what's going on all over the country. this is the fbi. it is dumb founding. we may not have the legal tools, but what we would have had is civility and sanity. i think it shows how extreme people are that they're taking it upon themselves to threaten the fbi. that would be the last agency i would try to threaten. they're staking this claim that, look, you are endangering people. do you want to go that route? of course, the answer is going to be, yeah, we don't care. we will go that route. very quickly on the whistle

blower that they tout repeatedly. he seemed at best to be very confused. he misconstrued a statement at the table about david weiss' status. that was shown to be wrong. he's since become himself a sort of warrior for this cause. there's real reason not to load up a whole investigation based on him. be that as it may, the headline here is holy cow people are threatening the fbi and rampantly we are so out of whack in this country. >> pete, you get the last word. i want to ask you if we are too timid in the way we talk about this? these are threats to terrorize people who are public servants doing their jobs for political purpose. are we saying something and are we saying the right thing? >> well, in my opinion we're not doing enough. when push comes to shove, the fbi and doj need to band

together and protect their personnel. they're going to do it, but they need to be able to do it without fear for their lives. when the fbi was prosecuting al capone, there wasn't a unit dedicated to protecting fbi personnel. you threw up that quote from testimony from an fbi agent to the house judiciary committee. who's the chairman of the house judiciary committee? jim jordan. jim jordan hearing these threats, he nevertheless goes on television and in the little snips that you show he's repeating the name of this asa. congressman and senators don't care about this threat. we need to be doing more. i'm glad to see the fbi and director wray and others talking about this. we need to talk about it even more. it's not getting better. if anything, it's getting worse

it's getting worse behind the testimony and statements of senators and congressman, not fringe outcasts, but mainstream national politicians. it's got to stop. >> it's interesting when you say that. there's no unit created to protect the agents that prosecuted al capone. then the elected officials threatening these people in the same way that the russian troll farms were out there. you have republicans doing all the mob like threatening and intimidation and endangering of prosecutors. what do you need the proud boys for? it's an extraordinary articulation of how far we've fallen. pete, mike, thank you for being here. mary sticks around as does harry. coming up, in what seems like an unusual request, the first two co-defendants in

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mcafee. the judge ordered that two other defendants, kenneth cheseboro and sydney powell will go on trial on october 23rd. the cases of the remaining 17 co-defendants, including the expresident, are now severed. that means separated, and do not yet have a trial date. in another major development today, the attorneys for cheseboro and powell are asking to talk to the grand jurors who indict them. this could draw more intense scrutiny on the group of fulton county jurors, ordinary citizens. we all know what it is like to get that summons, right? they were called to serve jury duty by their state and they did their civic duty. and whose safety has already been jeopardized just by the fact of their connection to the trial and indictment of the expresident. we're back with mary and harry. let me just, the legal pieces are sometimes hard for me to

decipher. what i think this means in terms of what our country is about to enter into is a televised trial where all the evidence that was martialed against donald trump will be in a courtroom as they try two of the defendants, cheseboro and powell. >> that's right. the judge said the jury will start jury selection on october 23rd. one reason he severed the other 17 defendants is so he can get through jury selection and have a panel sworn by november 3rd, because if he doesn't, then he would arguably not be complying with the georgia speedy trial act and the cases could be dismissed against them. so one among many other reasons he granted the motion to sever is because he wants to make sure in this case, that he can get the trial started in time. he also recognized, i think just was being realistic, that to have all 19 go to trial october

23rd, he had received lots of representations from other attorneys that based on their own schedules in other cases, they could not be prepared by october 23rd. and i think he recognized that was unrealistic to ask them to be prepared and would have possibly created reversible error if he made people to go to trial when their attorneys are unprepared. and he said we don't have a courtroom big enough for these 19. so we will be seeing this trial of kenneth cheseboro and sydney powell. another thing he indicated, this trial may go into 2024. we are talking, as you indicated, about evidence that will show the entire scope of the rico conspiracy. when you are charged with a rico conspiracy, the entire scope of it is imputed to you. so that really will be a preview for the other defendants. he took some care to do a couple of other things in his order. he said these defendants, nine of those who asked for severance have already said they were willing to waive their speedy

trial rights, and that if anyone did not waive their speedy trial rights by october 23rd, then they're going to trial with kenneth cheseboro and sydney powell. what he doesn't want to happen is a piecemeal bit by bit assertion of speedy trial rights, causing a new trial to start every month and completely muck up the works in the courthouse. the other thing that he did that i think was important, he said these people who have moved for removal, even while the roofls are pending in front of judge jones, while appeals are pending because mr. meadows has appealed the denial of removal, those cases will proceed in his court. that's according to federal law. they're going to be expected to review discovery, do pretrial motions, file pretrial motions. i don't know that he'll go to trial against any of them just yet. they have to keep the train moving. >> harry, cheese every cheseboro and powell want to talk to the grand jurors. is that normal?

>> it's maybe normal to ask but it won't happen. we're now at this point. they're going on the 23rd where there will be a flurry of pretrial motions. most of them. cheseboro has already filed, too, and that makes no sense. it is a little like we were talking about with hunter biden. once the grand jury has spoken, the meter starts again. you don't really get to penetrate. the charges were made and what matters now is what will be in court. they can call them if they want and it will be up to the grand jurors but no way the court orders them to speak. and i want to underscore one point about what mary said. everything i agree with, but we're seeing now what we were wondering all the way through. would she bring rico? what are the upsides? down sides? we'll have a four-month trial on cheseboro and powell day after day, week after week, that doesn't have much to do with them. if we have the piecemeal trials,

the same thing would happen repeatedly. ponderous, judicially inefficient, give as you dress rehearsal and preview to the other defendants. much to be avoided. the challenge comes because the basic charge says, the evidence is the same for anyone. the sprawling conspiracy applies to all. that wouldn't be happening if there were separate charges, or even a standard kind of conspiracy charge. >> thank you both for spending the hour with us and making sense of so many stories today. up next, a brand new warning about how our electoral process, our elections are under great stress and what can be done about it. that story after a quick break. don't go anywhere. where.

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i really do believe that the, many of the people in leadership, meaning elected officials who claim that 2020 was a stolen election, that we need to recount the ballots or whatever, other than through the normal judicial process. i think they do better and i have expressed that numerous times. democracy requires belief and credibility in elections. and so people who are casting aspersions on our election process are threatening one of the bases of our very foundation. >> and we'll say the rest of it for him. are therefore, undemocratic. it's 5:00 in the new york. from the man who nine years ago it was republican party's standard bearer, he was who

republican voters picked to represent them as their nominee. he didn't prevail but that's who they picked. out with that very urgent warning yesterday, that it can't function unless they end the lie and the conspiracies that a democracy needs people to believe in it to survive. senator romney's message mirrors the premise of a brand new report by experts on law and information security. they describe this. a united states electoral process under great stress. they write this. over the last two decades,heimer polarized politics and very close elections have led to fights over election rules and controversy over the administration of u.s. elections. no longer can we take for granted that people will semielection results as legitimate. the united states faces continued threats to peaceful transitions of power after election authorities or courts have declared a presidential

election winner. to avoid future conflicts, they make 24 recommendations. among them, quote, states should adopt permanent general election emergency statutes to protect the right to vote. social media and website platforms should preserve their capacity to address false information about when, where and how people vote. and other threats to free and fair elections. and this, quote, states should strengthen laws to protect election officials from violence from threats of violence, and intimidation, and alleviate unnecessary burdens on such officials. under scoring the importance of our elections has been a mission of president joe biden throughout his campaign and his presidency. biden has stressed that everyone's voice needs to be heard and he's talked about how we must restore a common set of values, a soule, as he says, to our nation. we learned the read that will make a major address to the nation on the ongoing threats to democracy the day after the next

presidential primary debate later this month. on that, the times reports this. one location for the speech that has been under discussion is the mccain institute. the institute which is devoted to fighting for democracy is named for senator john mccain, a republican who served for more than 20 years in the senate with mr. biden who sparred repeatedly with former president trump. the republican party's front runner in 2024. that is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. law professor from ucla law school, and joining me, the editorial member, and our friend, the executive producer of showtime's the circus and the hell and high water podcast is here. >> i want to give you time to go through report. >> protecting elections

officials requires the work of the fbi whose agents arundel so much threat of political violence that they've set up a unit to protect the fbi. at some point, we're going to need a unit to protect the unit to protect the unit to protect the fbi to protect the officials. how do we break the cycle? >> i think you have to recognize that there is a part of this country that doesn't believe the last election was stolen, that wants fair, common sense approaches to fixing our election problems. it starts with recognizing we have problems. recognizing that it is not just about elections being run in a fair way but also, people having confidence that they're run in a fair way. that requires things like transparency. lots of different steps which we outline in the report. of course it requires those who run the elections and count the votes. i hope those are people who are our neighbors. they are in our communities. i hope that we will find the

resources to make sure that around the country, the people who are running our elections from the poll workers to our secretaries of state are protected so they can run a free and fair process. >> the report comes at a time when the crisis is acute. let me show you the testimony before the senate judiciary committee from the secretary of state of michigan, jocelyn benson. >> one night in december 2020, i was about to put my son to bed when dozens of individuals descended upon our home. growing in numbers over the course of an hour, they stood outside my front door, waking my neighbors, shouting object sents and graphic threats into bull horns. to the this day, these images and this memory of that evening still haunts me. this was not the first, nor was it the last time. a group of people showed up at my home or threatened me, my staff, or many of the hundreds of local elected officials in our state. as a result, there is an

omnipresent feeling of anxiety and dread that permeates our daily lives and thois of our families. >> as a group, if you study our state of politics from election officials to the state level to the local level. people like ruby freeman and shea moss, jurors from the state level to the federal level, if you look at trump's prosecutions in georgia, d.c. and florida, media, if they've all been maligned and delegitimized among 30% of our country's population, what happens next? >> part of what we're trying to do is figure out ways that we can rapidly respond to conspiracy theories, and make, take the oxygen out of things. one of the things that was so effective in 2020 was, when a claim was made that there were ballots in a ditch, the media was there, the election officials were there to counter. you're not going to convince

everyone in this hyper polarized world of hyper partisanship. if the goal is to convince everyone, it will fail. you have to convince enough people who might have serious questions. is the election fairly conducted? how will i know my vote will count, that there are votes will count and the election is fair. and that's what we're aimed at. we're not going to solve the problem of polarization in our elections and the ramifications of the earlier lies about the 2020 election before 2024. but there are lots of tangible steps in law, media, and tech that we can take from the people in the middle so they can be convinced whether trump wins or trump loses. biden wins or biden loses. i may not be happy with the result but i agree that the election was conducted in a way that was fair and i can reorganize and fight again next time for my candidate. >> one of the things, the report is so timely. and one of the things that we saw that happened today, a headline that crossed the wire

in the 2:00 hour, is that state senate republicans in wisconsin voted to remove the wisconsin elections commission administrator. her name is megan wolf. she's a nonpartisan elections official. they turned on her calling for her resignation. i wonder if it is like, you plug one leak and then we'll have to plug another leak. or are you optimistic, if we take these steps, if the majority of americans are behind them, we can get to a better place? >> well, this is not the first election administrator who has been essentially fired, or attempted to be fired by the wisconsin state legislature. wisconsin is kind of ground zero. they're fighting in their state supreme court over who controls that court after there was an election that shifted the balance of power. it is a very dire situation, a place like wisconsin. i know there are people fighting for democracy there. there was controversy, you may

remember, about the use of drop boxes, and trump claimed the election was stolen in wisconsin. there was no evidence the election was stolen. in a lot of ways, this battle has to be fought state by state among the local people who understand what's going on. who can provide the facts. if an election administrator will be fired by legislators, they may end up paying a price for that. voters don't want to see that. they recognize when the stuff is happening, it is not about lack of sound election practices. it is about trying to police the base of the republican party or trying to muddy the waters so that if there is an attempt in the future for election subversion, there could be some claim that there was something wrong with how the election was conducted. >> 30% of voters now, according to the monmouth university poll from a couple months ago in may believe that president joe biden won thanks to voter fraud. lifelong republican chris krebs

described the 2020 election as the most secure in america's history. 62 judges looked at claims of fraud. trump's side lost 61. the won they lost was not on the substance. every body that has claimed fraud has found that there wasn't any. i want to broaden the time line. after the 2000 election, jim baker and former president jimmy carter looked at this idea of fraud. in 2000, there wasn't any evidence of fraud. there are lots of crimes that people in this country commit. widespread voter fraud in a way that changes the results of the election isn't one of them. what do we do between this vast gap between what happened in america and 30% of our country's population believing something that is democracy extrably false. >> first, to report that a bunch

of conservative luminaries put out last year called lost month stolen which goes through the evidence and debunked it. maybe it's not really 30% of the population that believes the election was stolen. but it's performative. why not tell that to a pollster? how do you show allegiance to donald trump? you parrot his claims. whether you believe them or not. and i'm hoping that as we move forward to 2024, this issue will fade. we know generally that people have more faith in elections when their candidates win. that's not new. but this is kind of that issue on steroids. and trump has certainly said things about how the last election was conducted that has really caused a lot of people to worry. how can we reassure them while continuing to have access to the ballot and fair elections for election workers, and our voters as well. that's really the question that we faced and we've got to address it soon. we can't wait until just before

2024. now is the time for courts and legislatures and election bodies and journalists and social media companies to get into action. >> john, i like to remind folks, we've known each other since i was a campaign operative and you were covering the campaigns. to have this conversation, to read this report. for this to be the conversation we have as you're gearing up for a cycle. instead of debating whether or not the losing party will actually address what they've discovered in their autopsy report. is as much of an indicator where we are, where the republican party is as anything. the republican party has not had any process to figure out why trump lost, because they can't aa party admit that he did. every aspect of the way politics happens, and the way the media covers politics on the right is altered by the lies. and so we cover the violence as a separate story from the primaries, a separate story from the threats, i think we do a

disservice. it is all the same thing. i wonder when you travel how that gets bundled and presented. >> well, one thing that is also a story here that runs in parallel, connected, is, one of the parts of the report that you read in your opening was listing the conditions why this is a problem. one of them is a series of close elections. i would have, if i were editing this, i would have said, and the apparent inability of republicans to win at a national level repeatedly over years is an incredibly important back drop. they lost the national popular vote in the last eight presidential elections. like 2004 is the only one that won the national popular vote. part of that is the condition. why are republicans challenging elections more? because they are having to find other ways to win. one of the ways to win when you can't win a national popular

vote majority is to thread the needle through the electoral college. the other thing, a sign of desperation. talk about your autopsies. you have a series at the national level. every one of those autopsies has said, hey, here are a bunch of big things we need to do. >> change your position on abortion, on immigration. >> we have to appeal to nonwhite voters, to women. the autopsies have been kind of the same for a lot of years. and they never get addressed. in fact, not only do they not get addressed but they're ignored more with each successful election. you get donald trump who says, set the autopsy on fire and do exactly the opposite of everything that the party elders and the establishment have decided. you have a party that keeps not doing anything to change itself if it wants to win the national majority. when it doesn't, it says, there

has to be another way. how could we possibly lose seven out of eight elections when it's obvious all my friends believe what i believe. let's attack the poll workers. i believe the issue that is so chilling about this is that in the last election cycle in 2020, we were all worried about what would happen on election day. would there be people trying to seize ballot boxes? none of those things happened. and hey, wow, the proud boys didn't, trump didn't impoumd the ballot boxes. a lot of people thought that stuff would happen. it didn't happen but we got january 6th. this time around with the build-up and all the trump lies and conspiracy theories, and the increasing acceptance of political violence on the right, i worry a lot about all of these factors converging around, oh, boy. maybe we were just worried about the election day, security of ballot boxes, election officials and so on. maybe we worried about that. we were right to worry about it

but we were one cycle too early. january 6th, some of the violence we saw there, now who is the easiest targets? not the u.s. capitol. it is all the ordinary citizens out there trying to protect ballot boxes in the country. absolutely great that this report is ringing the alarm bell. we have to get ready. >> can i just say about ballot boxes, this is an absolute pet peeve. they're the most secure ballots. 37 the most signature requirements. i think among the most, rick can jump in if i have this wrong. they are targets of republicans and states like texas and georgia and other places because they tent to, i guess the republican assessment is they tend to come from people who don't vote for republicans. the whole thing is a projection. the whole thing is a lie. and my other concern, to john's broader point, is that threatening violence and answering pollsters' questions

about accepting violence may be the way to terrorize people. it may work without an act. >> this is the whole thing. the republican party, as it is right now, has all of us talking about just how secure our elections are. they are secure. what we're not talking about is the fact that it is exceptionally hard to vote because of some of the measure that's republicans have put into place. so that's actually the bigger story here, i think. along with the political violence and the intimidation that is on the rise. i fear that we're not talking enough about the sentiment of some of these voters. and it is not a majority of the american people, i don't believe. underlying the big lie. the idea that the election was stolen. i think underneath that is very pernicious sentiment that there are some people who are not real americans. do not legitimately deserve the cast a ballot. their vote shouldn't count. there's a long history in this country of that.

whether it is from black americans or new americans. >> women. >> women. liberals, trying to disenfranchise entire college towns. this is about power and i think that we really need to, i think, think about active measures as the report called for. not only to convince people that our system of voting is secure but also to remind people that we're all americans and it is one man or woman, one vote. and no less, no more. and i think we need to have a sense that this is a common project. and we don't get to decide, well, my neighbor isn't american enough. >> so i feel like changing the hearts and minds piece might be the hardest thing for us. >> it will take years. >> rick, thank you for the report. for spending time talking to us. if we got anything wrong or we jumped off any places that you didn't have in mine, please jump in and say the last word.

>> there is controversy over absentee ballots. absentee ballot fraud does occasionally happened. in north carolina in 2018, they had to rerun the congressional election. the only time that has happened in modern history. we say if people can vote in person early, that can speed the vote count. and you're more likely to have your vote counted. a lot of voters get disenfranchised because they don't fill out their forms correctly. not every place gives you a chance to cure it if you make a mistake. so in-person early voting is something that, while it shouldn't eliminate the possibility of voting by mail, having people vote in person may be their best bet having their vote counted and ensuring the count. >> stick around for the hour. when we come back, a trauma surgeon running for congress in texas with an urgent message.

end gun violence right now. >> i've had to pronounce too many children dead on arrival due to gun violence. telling mothers and fathers they will never again see their child alive. >> this killing, it has to stop. we have to come together and end all this. >> that doctor, dr. brian williams, is calling on fellow democrats to be relentless in the fight for gun safety, even in the face of republican in action. he'll explain what that campaign looks like when he joins our conversation after a short break. about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of

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an unprecedented and extraordinarily powerful plea today for a brand new approach to gun reform. from a trauma surgeon running for congress in texas, making a strong case from the front lines of the cross roads of gun violence and police brutality. in his first campaign ad, dr. brian williams shares his firsthand experience, patients dying on his watch or before they even get to his operating room, including countless children. in 2016, the moment he calls an inflection point in his life when he led the team that treated several dallas police officers who were shot at a peaceful protest against police brutality. three of them died. the ad was released this morning. here's a piece of it, in which dr. williams recounts why he's made gun violence a cornerstone of his campaign. watch. >> when three police officers died on my watch, it nearly broke me. those officers were protecting

young people. young people protecting the deaths of black men, innocent black men. in that moment, one thing is clear. we need change. and they see me, a black man, and to understand that i support you. i will defend you. and i will care for you. that doesn't mean that i do not fear you. as a trauma surgeon, i've had to pronounce too many children dead on arrival due to gun violence, telling mothers and fathers they would never again see their child alive. >> i think about it every day, that i was unable to save those cops when they came here that night. this killing, it has to stop. we have to come together and end all this. >> joining us right now, dr. brian williams, the trauma surgeon in charge of dallas's parkland hospital's trauma room. treating seven of the 16 people shot in the sniper attack in

dallas's downtown. also joining us for a special conversation, our dear friend, fred guttenberg. his daughter jamie was murdered at marjorie stoneman douglas school, in her school in 2018. he's the co-author of the very important book, american carnage, shattering the myths that fuel gun violence. dr. williams, take me through the trauma that you are putting in the center of your candidacy. the most harrowing day of your career sounds like, i think fred and i have this conversation every time you're here. it sounds like a thing that might have broken anyone else is this thing that has driven you and propelled you into this new arena. if i have it wrong, please explain. >> you're absolutely right. that night, july 7, 2016, was

the moment when i began to seek ways to address the epidemic of gun violence and healing our community outside of the hospital. that night, there were seven police officers that were shot, they were brought to our hospital. 14 total. seven that came to our hospital. and three of whom died. and that evening, i did something i've done too many times, which is change out of bloody scrubs, put on a clean set of scrubs, button down my white coat and walk into a room and tell a mother and father about the death of their child. and quite frankly, i'm tired of doing that. we can do something to keep our communities and children safe from gun violence. and afterwards, be propelled to use other names to use my experience to promote safety within our communities and within the country. >> dr. williams, 87% of all americans support background

check legislation. 81% of all americans support raising the age to 21. 80% of all americans support mental health checks. 80% of all americans support taking away guns, confiscating them from people considered dangerous. 77% of all americans support a 30-day waiting period. 61% of all americans support an assault weapon ban. i'm not aware of any of these things being en route to the president's desk for signature. you don't have to persuade the public. you have to change the politics. how would you do that? >> that's the absurdity of what is going on when most americans want to end this carnage. and it is congress. it is republicans in congress that are beholden to the gun lobby and continue to make it impossible for people like us on the front lines to live with this carnage to do our job. we can do things at the federal

level to keep our community safe that most americans agree with. raise the minimum age for firearms, rebackground checks, a lot of agreement on that. i'm done, nicole. i've seen too many children die from gun violence. i've seen too many family members have their lives changed by this. that's why i've decided to to help us in trauma end this. i will go to congress. there has never been a trauma surgeon in congress. that is a critical voice that is missing. someone who has seen the impact of guns. and there has never been a black doctor with a voting privilege in congress so that would be a change as well. i'm running to bring my perspective to make a difference to keep our communities and our children safe. >> there's something so searing

about the days, mass shootings in america, wlrg the physicians come out and you see their faces drawn and you see the horror of whatever it is they've just seen. and i remember those press conferences that are in your ad. i remember the physicians in uvalde. i remember the pediatricians coming out. i remember. i remember the hospital press conferences for years after the tragedies. and i wonder if you think more people need to understand what it is you've seen. >> those of us in trauma, it's a tight-knit family. we all understand the emotions that occur when these shootings are happening and what it means to stand in front of cameras and try to convey that to the public. what is not happening is action to bring an end to the gun violence.

so it is really important that people in congress that are standing in the way of sensible gun legislation, particularly republicans, hear from someone like me. not just as an advocate but someone in the house of representatives, helping write these laws that will keep us safe. that is the voice that is missing. i intend to make the cornerstone of my campaign. quite simply, there are things we can do. we just need more bold leadership who knows what is at stake to make it happen. >> i want to bring fred into the conversation. someone we turn to during the country's darkest hours. and someone who keeps his hope and optimism alive that something can change. i have to sneak in a quick break. we'll bring fred and john for more on the other side. ohn for more on the other side nts for ys okay, great. j.p. morgan wealth management. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪

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we're back with dr. brian williams and my guests. i need to hear your thoughts about the campaign and about the message. >> you asked the doctor how you change the politics, and you do it by changing the politicians. you know, nicole, in many prior interviews, you've asked me about the concept of hope and how i say hope full. i reopen hopeful because of the great people who i had the fortune of meeting and dr.

williams is one of them. he is a person putting himself out there because of what he has seen to deal with the reality of gun violence. if people who have not yet seen his ad, i only ask they take the time to go to his website, or his twitter or whatever, and watch the full ad. it is powerful. it deals with the reality of what really concerns all of us. honestly, in this time, we see politicians behaving in completely immature, irresponsible, and dishonest ways. it is so compelling to watch somebody who is mature, decent, and honest, who has a career that he doesn't have to put aside. say, i am going to do this because of what i've seen. because of parents like me that

he has had to deliver this horrible news to, or parents where he's had to say, your child didn't die, but they're going to be paralyzed. they're going to require a lifetime of care. he is putting himself out there to run for all the right reasons, and i'm so thankful for him and i'm thankful that you have him on here today. >> fred, now that we know each other well, i feel comfortable challenging your optimism, and we covered your, the pediatrician who also has an ad about what back to school connotes. we now have an entire generation. classes are graduating having done active shooter drills since the time they were 3. my son is in that generation in middle school now. i want to ask you. if there were anything else in america that killed as many kids as guns do, scooter, a medicine,

an allergy shot, a vaccine, a crib, they would be behind bars just for running the company that made that thing. but the guns, the people who make them, the people who protect them, the people who sell them, there have been no consequences as the risk to our kids and the damage to our kids and the ability to kill and terrorize our kids has skyrocketed. how could you stay hopeful? >> because i acknowledge as a country, we've done a terrible job of voting for far too many elections. i don't mean we vote for the wrong people. i mean too many of us didn't vote and we've ended up with the wrong people. i am hopeful in this election, people are going to come out and vote in record numbers and vote for people like dr. williams. you know, listen, i think today is such an interesting day from the standpoint of, hunter biden was just charged, right?

it is amazing to see the republicans talking about guns. because it's attached to hunter biden. and by the way, again, unlike the republican party, mature responsible adult people can also say, if he deserves to be held accountable, he should be. but the point is, i'm blown away by the fact that they're talking about guns because it is related to that, and yet when my daughter was murdered, when other kids are murdered, when other people are murdered, the one word they will not say is gun. so let that stand for today as the real juxtaposition of who they are. and let's make sure we continually remind america that there are people who want to actually do something about the reality of gun violence. and by the way, if you believe that we should do more to keep the guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them,

then let's do it. because that's apparently the republican argument as it relates to hunter. in spite of the fact that they actually want to undo the laws that he was charged with. >> exactly. >> let's vote for honest, decent, responsible, mature people who want to solve this. >> you know, fred's work has brought us some of these numbers. every time i pull the polling on gun safety legislation, it's risen. you don't have close to 90%, 80%, 80%, 80%, agree on much of anything in this country. gun safety legislation has super majority support, and you don't even hear anyone talk about trying to bring it to the president's desk. >> the perpetual problem with these things, the way that clinically people would describe it as a problem of sailence with

these issues. when you have a 90% issue but no one is voting on it, it is one of those things, i'm in favor of apple pie but i'm not going to vote on apple pie. not that people don't care about gun violence. their attitude was, there's not much we can do about it. i have more immediate concerns. these are far away from me. yes, gun violence is bad but it doesn't affect my family. obviously that has changed in the last few years. and i've been saying the last couple cycles, the only way it changes is if it starts to be politically perilous to resist the 80% of voters. in which case, someone will start losing elections on the basis of being holdouts, or resisting gun safety legislation. and we needed some candidates who are not like normal politicians. candidates who have some connections and not just more yack, yack, yack, i wish we had

gun safety. we need someone who has something more tangible to it. hopefully not the last of the candidates. we'll see what happens. this advertising the strategy is unlike anything i've ever seen before. normally you have positive ads and negative ads. here is this harrowing ad because this candidate is, the calling card is, here's some really hard pictures to look at. here's the face of tragedy. this tragedy is coming for all of you. like you're all affected. everyone, the schools, everywhere. everyone has been sucked into this horrible maw of gun violence and i am the face of someone who has to confront it in a different way, in the most immediate way, other than the families who have to deal with it. it is a different world. something has to change for us to punch through and get the 80%

numbers to be reflected in law. this candidate, others, some difference. this might be part of how we start to break the pattern. >> you know, there aren't a lot of trauma surgeons rushing to run for office. so this is unique. it's very interesting. i wonder for dr. williams, could you take us into that trauma room, into that theater and help us understand what you saw that has driven you to what many americans would think of as quite an extreme measure. you don't have to do this. people are jaded about politics. what is it that you saw, i don't believe that you signed up to go to war. but you're seeing the carnage, as you said, from weapons of war. what are you seeing that americans need to know could happen to them or those they love? >> well, first, i should say i did set up to go to war. i went to the it is annapolis

academy. i've trained on these weapons. i've used an m-16, the military version of an ar 16. when we were done training, we didn't hang around with them. they went to secure storage. we understood then as now that they are weapons of war that do not belong on civilian streets in the hands of up trained civilians. as far as what i've seen in the operating room, describing what these weapons do to bodies, i don't want to get too graphic but what really matters, what really tears at my core is the survivors. the ones that have been injured by weapons and are changed for their lives but also the family members who lose loved ones to gun violence. if you ask a health care worker to lose touch with your humanity and not bothered by that when that happens, you need to find another line of work. and i'm tired of it. it is too much. if congress won't act, i'm going to do what i can to go over

there and help change the narrative. that's why i'm running. nothing is changing. it is getting worse. we need more people to understand what this means to our communities, to our children, to our neighbors, to our loved ones. we need someone who will be there and fight for them every day to make this come to an end. that's why i'm running. >> you have all of our attention, dr. brian williams. i hope that you'll be part. these conversations as your campaign continues. dr. brian williams, fred, john, thank you all for being part of conversation. when we come back, this month is national suicide prevention month. coming up, an excerpt from my interview with nba super star kevin love who has been outspoken about his own mental health challenges. we'll have part of that conversation for you after a short break. short break.

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arms them with the language, helps them talk about their feelings and trauma. i've had the privilege of speaking with kevin love recently and he shared an important truth about depression, anxiety, and mental health. we were discussing some of the wildly successful beloved public figures we have lost to suicide in recent years. people likeyears, people like robin williams, anthony bourdain, and fashion designer kate spade. people who from afar, from the outside, looked like they had everything, and kevin love reminded me that, quote, everyone is going through something, and success does not make you immune. watch. >> success is not immune to depression. i use that all the time. >> totally. >> so again, it transcends. >> and sometimes it's hiding people in the most pain. when these brilliant, brilliant artists, when we lose them it's so shocking as a society, because we think, oh, my god. what do you think it is that makes someone able to, even when

they're -- in your case, at their lowest, reach for help, and others, like the greats we're talking about, not? what is that chip? >> yeah, i think for me it did take that november 5th panic attack where i ended up on the ground of our head athletic trainer's offense. i went to the cleveland clinic, who i'm grateful for. they ran tests. they said, we're not saying nothing's wrong, but you really had a panic attack. and you know, these are the steps that you can take to get better, and that's when i realize, a moment like that, my safe space was taken away, i had a panic attack in front of 20,000 plus fans, had to remove myself from a game, and i had to show face and pretend i was okay after the fact, and i didn't want to do that anymore. i didn't want to live in the

shadows. >> you had a great game when came back. >> i had a great season. >> right, there was clearly nothing wrong physically, so you could have kept it secret. >> exactly right. >> what is it that makes you say, not anymore, if i can help one person, i'm going to they will this part of me. >> i don't wish anybody took a traumatic and dramatic and public event for me in what i felt was a safe setting to get to that point. >> i think what the things you've written make clear is not even you could outrun the great -- is that the bottom line? >> i think that's the bottom line. it transcends. if there's a theme, it transcends. it doesn't care who you are. it's going to affect everybody, whether, first person or somebody within arm's reach in your life at some point. the statistics show that. we don't even know the long-term effects of what covid is going to bring, not only for the youth, which we're speaking about now, but everyone.

>> everyone. so if you or someone you know and love is in crisis, you can call 988 to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. we have put additional resources up on our website, and we'll have much more from that interview with kevin love in the coming days. you can find the entire interview on youtube right now. quick break for us. we'll be right back. ow quick break for us we'll be right back. my father didn't know his dad. with ancestry i dug and dug until i found some information. birth certificate. wow. and then you add it to the tree. it's like you discover a new family member. discover even more at ancestry.com

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president president zelenskyy will meet with president joe biden next week when zelenskyy travels to the u.s. to attend the u.n. general assembly. that's according to a senior ukrainian official. we do not know where they'll meet, either new york city or in washington for zelenskyy's first trip to the white house since last december. news of the meeting comes on the heels of yesterday's show of unity with vladimir putin and north korean leader kim jong-un, who propositioned his, quote, full the unconditional support of putin's invasion of ukraine. another break for us. we'll be right back. 'll be righ. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this...

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