everyone. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone, happy friday. it's 4:00 in new york. next week marks the ten-month anniversary since attorney general merrick garland first appointed special counsel jack smith to his post. just ten months. let that sink in. right now jack smith is a man who speaks very few words publicly. so we are for the time being left to comb through his public filings to know what jack smith really thinks about the urgency of getting his election interference case into court. now we're getting a brand new glimpse inside jack smith's thinking and specifically and more chillingly, jack smith's very real fears of violence. they come from what we're learning about efforts to gain access to trump's twitter account. "politico" is reporting that newly unsealed court filings show that way back in april,

quote, federal prosecutors secretly argued that if donald trump learned of their efforts to access his twitter account, his public -- attorneys working for special counsel jack smith worried trump would publicly announce like he announced on truth social when his mar-a-lago estate was searched. a surge in threats against federal law enforcement culminating in the fatal shooting of a man who had attempted to breach the fbi building in cincinnati. if this showdown between special counsel jack smith and the social media giant twitter now known as x is ringing any bells for you, that's because we've reported on it here before, an how twitter dragged its feet only to ultimately and begrudgingly hand over a heap of data about donald trump's twitter account. tweets location data, direct messages. now thanks to his newly unsealed filing, we know exactly how many

direct messages from trump's account were turned over. just 32. what jack smith describes as a, quote, minuscule amount. but the really chilling part of these new revelations is just how determined jack smith was to keep the disgraced twice impeached four times indicted ex-president from learning about their efforts to obtain trump's twitter data because they believed, as we said earlier, it would, quote, precipitate violence if and when the ex-president tweeted about it. also from the filing, quote, these are not hypothetical considerations in this case. following his defeat in the 2020 presidential election, the former president propagated false claims of fraud, pressured state and federal officials to violate their legal duties and retaliated against those who did not comply with his demands culminating in violence at the u.s. capital on january 6th. quote, more recently, the former president has taken several

steps to undermine or otherwise influence the investigation into the potential mishandling of classified information, following the end of his presidency including publicizing the existence of the mar-a-lago warrant. the former president's obstructive efforts continue unabated with respect to this invest investigation here in which he has determined to pay the legal fees of potential witnesses against him and repeatedly disparaged the lead prosecutor on his truth social platform. quote, this pattern of obstructive conduct amply supports the district court's conclusion that the former president presents a significant risk of tampering with evidence seeking to influence or intimidate potential witnesses and otherwise seriously jeopardizing the government's ongoing investigations. in other words, as our colleague rachel maddow likes to say, watch what they do, not what they say. in this case what trump has done tells us exactly how dangerous he could be if he had known

about jack smith's efforts to access his twitter data. that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former acting u.s. solicitor general neal katyal is back with us. with me at the table, basal smikle, a democratic strategist. glenn thrush is here as well, "new york times" political correspondent, glenn thrush. let me start with you, glenn, about what jack smith's filings tell us about what has gone on -- oh, glenn, we're still working on glenn. i will disclose to our loyal viewers that i've got a little bit of a hub in my ear, so if you hear me playing with my ear prees, we're trying to work out our gremlins here while flying at 30,000 feet. to hear you, neal katyal i'll listen to any background noise in the world. where do we put this -- we're not learning this because it happened yesterday or last week. we're learning it because the filing is newly unsealed, and there's something disorienting,

right, about these pieces, the puzzle pieces becoming less opaque at a time when they don't jeopardize an ongoing investigation and prosecution. but it is fascinating to see in jack smith's filing the words, the fear, the very real fear of violence. >> yeah, so these messages are five months old. the filing is five months old, and there's both an immediate piece of the filing that there was some things and then there's a kind of meta. the immediate thing is just this is disclosing that 32 messages from donald trump have been turned over to the special prosecutor. we have no idea, nicolle, what they say, but when you see, for example, how trump talks in public like to megyn kelly yesterday, so imagine what he says in those private ones. i suspect that it's probably pretty interesting and important information. but as you were saying in the outset, i think the meta thing here is a picture of how jack

smith views the former president. he views him as a guy who has tried to overturn the election, who's called for violence, who will do what it takes to -- what he thinks it takes to obstruct the investigation, and i thought one of the interesting things -- and you put it up on the screen a moment ago is that jack smith back in april said trump paying the fees of witnesses and other people involved in these -- in these crimes is itself an obstructive act. that is part of the obstruction of justice, and that was before what we now know, which is that trump tried to pay for tavares, paid his attorneys fees, that guy didn't cooperate with the investigation. he then hired an independent lawyer. lo and behold, he's now cooperating and turned evidence over against donald trump. jack smith foresaw that back in april, and the picture painted by jack smith in this filing

that's been unsealed today is that donald trump is like a mob boss, someone who is just bent on trying to prevent trials, trying to prevent testimony from coming out, the guy is a afraid of the truth coming out in court. >> so neal katyal, yesterday, just to pick up on your point about trump as a mob boss. pete strzok made the pretty haunting observation that the fbi now has to protect itself, certain agents working on the hunter biden investigation, for example, have to be protected by a special unit inside the fbi. and pete strzok made the point that even need to create and erect a special unit inside the fbi to protect the agents who were working on those cases. we're almost in post-mob parallels. i want to read from the indictment about the violence and the call and answer from trump to the insurrectionists.

this is from jack smith's indictment of trump on the january 6th charges. at 2:24 p.m. after advisers had left the defendant alone in his dining room, quote, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution giving states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones they were asked to previous certify. usa demands the truth. one minute later at 2:25 p.m., the u.s. secret service was forced to evacuate the vice president to a secure location. at the capitol throughout the afternoon, members of the crowd chanted hang mike pence, where is pence? bring him out and traitor pence. tell me how looking at his direct messages and his twitter accounts relates to what's already been charged and what may still be of interest to jack smith? >> yeah, so legally, all of this is important because it really

does show that trump had a certain intent, both back then on january 6th and in the weeks, months, and now two and a half years since to obstruct an inquiry into that investigation. that itself is a criminal act, but it's also, nicolle, a despicable act. when the mob boss tries to obstruct justice, in a way you kind of expect that. we're talking about a person who was the former president of the united states and was the president during the time of those text messages that you were referring to a moment ago. and you and i have talked about this before. you worked for a president of a different party, george w. bush. i worked for barack obama, but i think the thing that both of us saw was that there was no way, no minute in which it was about them and not about the country. that is if they were in a situation in which some people were going to enact violence, even for their benefit, they

would have been the first ones out there to say no way, huh-uh, and i've had every difference in the world with your former boss, but i know that that's the type of person that he was and that, frankly, every president outside of maybe richard nixon has been. but donald trump took the reverse path, and the result is now fbi agents, law enforcement are worried. so talk about, you know, protecting blue and protecting cops and law enforcement, no way. i mean, these guys, you know, stood by and encouraged violence against law enforcement. >> you know, glenn thrush, there's something extraordinary about where we are in terms of our understanding of law enforcement's understanding of trump's role in putting the violence in motion. we were talking yesterday about the efforts to protect election officials. they're being protected by the fbi, other fbi agents being protected by a special unit inside the fbi. there's a constant escalation from trump, so the threat mushrooms, but on earth one you already run out of people to

protect the institutionalists protecting the institutions. where does doj see this at a crisis level? where does doj see this broader threat of violence that hangs over its two criminal prosecutions of donald trump? >> i think it's a huge issue for them. you know, jack smith a really substantial portion of his budget, we get these quarterly reports from all the special counsels that show among other things the enormous amount of money that they're spending on security. if you've covered -- i don't want to get into specifics, but if you've covered any of these court cases inside the courtroom, it's extraordinary the amount of security that is there to protect doj employees. and i'll throw one other addition into this, and that is the threat level to david weiss, the special counsel and the u.s. attorney in delaware appointed by trump who's been investigating hunter biden for more than five years has increased really substantially over the past couple of months, and i am told that security measures have been taken,

commensurate with those threats. so everybody who's doing -- engaged in these investigations from the fbi on up are dealing with this heightened threat level. >> i mean, glenn, i want to come back to the revelation today in the newly unsealed filing for jack smith because it relates. i think this might be one of the first times we've seen him argue that the threat of violence was a reason to make sure that trump didn't find out about the subpoena for his twitter dms and drafts, i think is what they were looking for. what do you -- what do you make of what jack smith is arguing and what we're just learning about now because it's newly unsealed? >> well, i think this is a recurring theme. like, the influence that trump is having outside of the courtroom, it's actually sort of an extension of the debate over the speed of the washington

trial. we don't know how long the florida proceedings on the mar-a-lago case are going to take. but we do know that judge chutkan is pushing far really fast trial, and her and smith are on the same page because they believe that trump will continue to make these public statements as he did in the megyn kelly interview blasting jack smith that could potentially prejudice the jury pool. and look, he wants to create a situation in which the underpinnings of this entire process are being questioned. so he -- you know, i think it is very, very clear from both his public statements and the actions taken by his legal team, for instance, trying to get judge chutkan to recuse herself that they're not necessarily willing at the moment to sort of fight this within the lines that they want to bring in all kinds of external factors, and that's very consistent with what he did. i'm not going to say that he's

inciting violence in this instance because we have not heard him make those kinds of inflammatory statements with respect to this case, but it's very clear that, you know, he has a track record and that's why he is being brought to trial in washington anyway, you know, for that track record. >> so let's -- i want to show our viewers what the special counsel was looking for in terms of the dms, but just bare with me one more moment on this threat of violence. here's the track record that glenn thrush is talking about. this is an exhibit from the january 6th select committee, and this is, again, don't take my word for it. don't take the word of anybody on this network. these are the rioters in their own words respondsing to trump's tweets. >> here is what the president wrote in his 2:24 p.m. tweet, while the violence at the capitol was going on. and here is what the rioters thought. >> nothing but a traitor, and he deserves to burn with the rest

of them. >> it's all escalated after pence -- what happened to pence -- pence didn't do what we wanted. >> pence voted against trump. >> and that's when all this started? >> >> yep, that's when we marched on the capitol. we've been shot at with rubber bullets, tear gas. >> we just heard that mike pence is not going to reject any fraudulent electoral votes! >> you're a traitor! >> boo! >> that's right. you heard it here first. mike pence has betrayed the united states of america. mike pence has betrayed this president, and he has betrayed the people of the united states, and we will never, ever forget! >> it's real simple. pence betrayed us, which

apparently everybody knew he was going to and the president mentioned it like five times when he talked. you can go back and watch the president's video. >> this is our capitol. let's be respectful to it. there's 4 million people coming in, so there's a lot of control. we love you guys. we love the cops. >> it's only a matter of time, justice is coming. >> i'm not going to play it, baa sal. this is the other side of that coin, quote, basically when trump put out his tweet we literally left right after that came out. you know, to me if he would have done it earlier in the day 1:30, we wouldn't be in this. maybe we wouldn't be in this bad of a situation. he was charged with his criminal conduct for that day. i mean, it is not theoretical, it is not a worst-case scenario. it is what happened the last tame trump used his megaphone to talk to his supporters. >> that's why when you use the phrase call and response, it's

so incredibly important. a lot of times when i hear that, i think about a church, i think about a pastor and how they engage with their congregation. trump is no pastor. he's no preacher. but what he is doing is engaging in the call and response with the religious fervor that makes this a cultish atmosphere that no intellectual conversation is going to pull those people away from him or from what they're doing, and that's why going to neal and glenn's points earlier, the fact that our institutions are being pushed so far to their limits, bursting at the seams almost, and folks trying to figure out how to contain all this, if jack smith is concerned about violence, shouldn't we l all, shouldn't the gop candidates on the next debate stage start talking about how close we are consistently coming to being pushed over the edge. i doubt they're going to engage in that. somehow, some way the collective we have to figure out how to show up our institutions and try to extricate all of these

individuals from anywhere in government. >> i want to read you, glenn, what the messages were that the special counsel's investigators obtained. and this is, again, despite the foot dragging, is that what we call it, accounts associated with real donald trump, the ex-president might have used in the same device. devices used to log into the real donald trump account, the ip addresses used to log into the account between october 2020 and january '21, privacy settings and history, all tweets created, drafted, favorited, liked or re-tweeted by real donald trump including any that were subsequently deleted. all direct messages sent from, received by, stored in draft form in or otherwise associated with the real donald trump. location information for the user real donald trump from october 2020 to january '21.

what do we know about how this part of the investigation informed charges? well, we do know that, you know, i think more in the mar-a-lago case, i'm just trying to recollect, there's a lot of information flowing back and forth. there have been explicit references to social media posts, i believe in the mar-a-lago indictment, but i might be conflating the two. i think people have made the assumption because there's the possession of these direct messages and they're being referenced that, you know, that, first of all, there's been a great deal of surprise because as you know, donald trump is not known to use emails or text messages necessarily as a way to communicate because he doesn't want to have that as a trail. he's very careful about that. he's made that explicitly clear. the fact that he'd be using dms has taken a lot of people by surprise. i think it could also open a bunch of other investigative doors.

it seems to me what they might be trying to establish, and i've been discussing this with former prosecutors who are puzzling through this like everyone else, is to determine obviously who it was that made particular tweets. which ones were done by some of the people who managed the social media accounts like dan scavino versus the president himself because they believe, i think, that some of these public statements are going to be relevant to the prosecution as well. so it's a whole batch of material. it is -- i wouldn't say it's ironic, it's fitting that twitter, which was at that -- during that period of time one of his great weapons, public relations weapons, is now becoming potentially one that might be weaponized against him in a court of law. >> it's fascinating. i always put that under the sort of umbrella of his reptilian survival instincts that there are no emails, but with someone like trump who has so much to say about so many things to so many people, it's also unsurprising that he had an outlet somewhere, that there was somewhere on his phone that he sent some messages apparently.

glenn thrush, thank you so much for spending time with us. when we come back, the first criminal case against donald trump took a back burner publicly to the other three indictments that followed on its heels. now we are learning this week that manhattan d.a. alvin bragg's trial may be delayed because of those other cases. why some legal experts are calling it a win for him that he's putting democracy above all else. we'll explain that new reporting. plus, in a week where republicans on the hill opened an impeachment inquiry against president joe biden in what they described as an evidence free zone, we'll talk with one of the lead prosecutors in the first impeachment trial of ex-president donald trump about what's going on in washington and how this impeachment inquiry differs from the last two, congressman adam schiff will be our guest. later in the broadcast, a high stakes legal battle over the biden administration's ability to fight disinformation is now heading to the supreme court. we'll explain, all those stories

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the latest developments in the new york hush money case against the ex-president could be perceived as a set back for manhattan d.a. alvin bragg, but legal experts say it's the latest in a string of overlooked victories for the manhattan district attorney alvin bragg. new york judge juan merchan has signaled, quote, in light of trump's rapidly evolving trial schedule that he'd be open to delaying the hush money trial date, which is right now

scheduled for march 25th, which bragg has signaled he might favor to allow the federal election interference trial to go first, from a new msnbc op-ed co-authored by andrew weissmann, quote, the delay makes room in the schedule for perhaps the most important of the criminal cases against the former president. in light of the strength of bragg's case and his court's success defeating trump's effort to remove the case to federal court, his willingness to push his case back to allow smith to go first in the public interest is remarkable. particular play for an elected official. neal and basil are back. neal, this case went -- this was the first indictment of donald trump i think everyone will always remember where they were, right, all four times when an ex-president of the country was indicted, i always remember where i was because this one was first, and then alvin bragg seems to have not received as much recognition for what really had been a string of legal victories. this is very much in line with

the posture he's taken the whole time. what do you make of this paying a dividend on the back end, that because of this strategy there will ultimately be accountability on these charges for trump? >> yeah, i agree with you, nicole, i mean, alvin bragg crossed the rubicon for the first time in our nation's history, a former president was indicted, and i certainly remember exactly where i was. i was next to you on your show. but it was not the most, of course, significant crime. it's serious. like, i mean, paying hush money to a porn star, having this major campaign benefit that was undisclosed, you know, that's an important thing, but it's certainly not on par with like a coup to topple democracy and install yourself in power and throughout out the results of an election with fake electors and god knows what else. so you know, i'm glad to see alvin bragg basically have the perspective, which not all elected officials or government servants do of saying, you know, my case isn't necessarily the

most important. there's something else really more important, and so by signaling that upfront and now the judge picking up on those cues, i think that's just really good lawyering. it's truly in the public interest. i think every -- not to take away anything from the new york case, but the two cases really against donald trump, one for january 6th, the other for the documents he stole at mar-a-lago are more important. and if you listen to what trump said yesterday on megyn kelly, you realize just how easy the mar-a-lago criminal trial is going to be. i mean, his only defense was the presidential records act, which says nothing like he says it does, and it's a defense to trump's crime the way drinking bleach is a defense to covid. that is to say -- >> not at all. you know all of the players that we're talking about, i'm imagining you're not surprised. >> i'm not surprised and actually, reading the story i

thought about advice hillary clinton used to give her staffers. she used to tell all of us don't major in the minors. don't focus on the noise. always focus, center your work around public service and the people that you're affecting, and that's what alvin bragg is doing. he's got history working against blue collar defendant -- white collar defendants, so he understands the games they can play. he understands the way they can marshal resources to kind of come at the office, and he has had this posture where he's said i'm not going to try it in the media. i'm going to take my time, be methodical, be delibbertive so the jurors and the residents of manhattan and the country can trust our process. that's really important at a time when we're having problems trusting other processes. >> i will say, the former campaign operative in me wants to assert that cheating in a campaign is deadly serious. we just happen to be talking about a guy who cheated at democracy.

so i take your point about the relative, you know, import of the other cases in relation to this one, but as we swing into a campaign season, i find it deadly serious that an american president was writing the checks that were part of his cover-up for what sdny found as federal election crimes. i thought his criminality in this sort of batch of conduct was so brazen that as he runs for president again, it gives me a little bit of a pit in my stomach that this one may be justice delayed. >> we are 100% in agreement, nicolle, you and i. i don't mean to minimize, it's just that we're talking about a guy who -- >> an insurrectionist, yeah. >> committed other serious crimes, yeah. so that -- it doesn't excuse it. it's just being pragmatic. i think bragg and the judge are being pragmatic in saying look, this crime is really serious, but l and behold this defendant has committed even more serious

ones, and let's let those go first. >> and that is, of course, true. thank you for starting us you have off. thank you for bearing with us. if we blasted your ear, we're good for a new one. thank you very much for rolling with the punches. basil sticks around a little bit longer. up next for us, january 6th select committee member congressman adam schiff joins us next on what seems to be an endless flow of news about what happened on and around january 6th. we'll have a chance to talk to him about that and much more. don't go anywhere today. neal save money - is that the ? (dad) well we gotta find some way to save. so say hi to glen. from work. (glen) hey. that's my mom. (mom) i think i have a much better plan. we switch to myplan from verizon. we get exactly what we want and save big. all on the network we can count on. (daughter) it's a good plan (dad) that is a good plan. glen looks like we're not going to be needing you. so i'll see you at work. (son) later glen. (vo) this week. new and current customers... get a free samsung galaxy s23. plus galaxy watch and tab.

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. i want to speak directly to the handful of witnesses who have been outliers in our investigation. the small number who have defied us outright. those whose memories have failed them again and again. if you've heard this testimony today and suddenly you remember things you couldn't previously recall, or there are some details you'd like to clarify or you discovered some courage you had hidden away somewhere, our doors remain open. >> after former aide to mark meadows cassidy hutchinson gave testimony that may have altered the course of all of this, of every investigation into donald trump's role on january 6th, after she did that on national television, the leaders of the january 6th select committee

publicly called on witnesses who had either resisted or previously testified in a less than truthful way, especially republicans, to come forward and testify fully and truthfully. that was then, right? but now thanks to a brand new excerpt from a new biography about retiring utah republican senator mitt romney, we're learning about some of the previously unknown inner workings of the republican caucus in the chaotic days leading up to and after the january 6th insurrection including how senate republican leader mitch mcconnell received a text from romney warning about the dangers of the upcoming rally and the threat of violence and said and did nothing that we know of. these details further underscore how republicans were sitting on a ticking time bomb as well as trove of incriminating information and how even if they -- might have helped protect mike pence and themselves and purged the threat of ex-president donald trump,

they refused to share it and when presented with evidence they refused to do anything. former member of the january 6th select committee and democratic congressman adam schiff of california is our guest. congressman, i wish i could beat the capacity for shock out of myself when it comes to the constant relocation of the bottom for the republicans, but this almost casual story telling that mitt romney does in this book, we just have some excerpts of it in "the atlantic" at this point, reveals that the republican leader of the senate saw january 6th exactly as you did. the only difference is he didn't do anything about it. >> you know, i also never cease to be amazed and shocked, and frankly, i don't want to lose that sensation of shock because that will mean i've just kind of resigned myself to this kind of duplicity. but it is. you know, the excerpts i've read

really do take your breath away both in terms of what members of the senate is and others knew prior to january 6th, the culpability by the kind of guilty knowledge they had, the unwillingness to do anything about it, you know, mitch mcconnell in particular had the opportunity really in both impeachments to stop a very dangerous president, someone that he knew was destroying the institution that he had served in for some long, someone he knew was doing enormous damage to the country and pose add a great threat to our country in the future. he had two occasions, two impeachments to do something about it, and even in the second impeachment after delaying the trial and then saying, well, i can't vote to impeach now because i didn't start the trial while he was still in office, he then said, well, there's probably a better remedy and that remedy may be prosecution. but now he still remains silent about it, and i just find it inexcusable, but yet again, we learn more about what these members did and said in private while they were doing and saying something very different in public. >> it is reassuring, though, to

know that the republicans -- the variable isn't seeing the facts as they really were, that when it comes to hawley and mcconnell and others that romney testifies to in this sort of almost confessional series of interviews with his biographer. they're seeing what he's seeing, they just aren't willing to deal with the threat to the democracy because they're worried about the threat to themselves. quote, during the senate trial romney heard the same calculation while talking with a small group of republican colleagues. when one senator, a member of leadership said he was leaning toward voting to convict, the others under him to reconsider. you can't do that, romney recalled someone saying. think of your personal safety, said another. think of your children. the senator eventually decided they were right. so this isn't -- this is a united states senator, one of 100 people responsible for the safety and the security of the american homeland of preserving

the peaceful transfer of power and democracy. and i'm actually quite sympathetic, i think anyone in the arena right now is very sympathetic to concerns for their safety, but this craven calculation to do for the person what they wouldn't do for the country really does make your stomach turn. >> it really does. you know, if i stopped every time i received a death threat i wouldn't go to work, and you know, my experience is not sadly all that atypical these days. but to have so little regard for your job, your oath, the constitution, and the country, you know, we make decisions that end up putting people in harm's way all around the world, and if they're not willing to endure some risk at home to do the right thing to protect the country, it's just inexcusable. it does, i think, draw all the more attention to the very few examples, the very few exceptions, the liz cheneys and

adam kinzingers and how extraordinary they are because they were so few in number. i would have thoughts year ago before this whole trump era much more highly of so many of my colleagues who i had respected, many i had admired because i believed they believed what they were saying, but as it turned out, they either didn't believe it or none of it really quite matters as much as their own personal either welfare or their personal job security or just plain personal security, and i just would not have thought that would be the case, and you know, this book is shedding more light, i found parts about the first impeachment trial to be fascinating and more acknowledgment that republicans knew we had proof the president was guilty but were not willing to do anything about. >> here's a quote from mcconnell, quote, they nailed him the senate majority leader said, that was with the impeachment case against trump, mcconnell, quote, they nailed him, and mcconnell says he doesn't recall the conversation,

but you have romney remembering that the leader of his -- the leader of the senate, the republican leader said, you nailed him. you know, ian basen who runs a democracy-focused effort says a state can't survive if this is how their leaders function, that they see the facts, they acknowledge the facts but they won't act on the facts. you've written a book about democracy, can we survive? >> we can survive. we will survive. i think it's really important for your viewers to understand that, you know, we'll get through this. i think when you're in crisis and our country is in crisis right now as a democracy, it's hard to see how it ends. sometimes it's even tough to see if it will end, but i have every confidence that this will pass. there are wonderful, beautiful, you know, compassionate people in every state in the union that will see us through this. we're about to be tested. the country's going to go through a great trial and i

don't mean any specific trial of the former presidents but rather a test of the proposition that no one is above the law. but i think we pass that trial, i think we get through that trial, and i also think in the coming election we have a chance to begin to turn the corner as a country, but it is -- it is very discouraging to, you know, one level read these recollections of what people were doing and saying at the time because you see, such an abundant failure of moral courage. i remember during the first trial, i quoted robert kennedy who said that moral courage was a more rare commodity than courage on the battlefield. i questioned during that first trial could that really be true. but these recollections by mitt romney show, well, it's pretty damn rare, moral courage. >> and it's not a two sides problem, i want to ask you to contrast mitch mcconnell's declaration that, quote, they

nailed him, the impeachment managers of donald trump with republican house members confession that there's zero evidence linking president joe biden to anything worthy of an impeachment. what do you make of the sham? we call it an impeachment inquiry. >> such a contrast from the methodical way we went about gathering the evidence in the first impeachment and the seriousness with which we took the responsibility of finding high crimes and misdemeanors. >> an evidence free impeachment of some kind, and for what because kevin mccarthy needs something to throw the right wing base in order to get them not to shut down the government, is that now what the standard is going to be for impeachment in the future that if you're a very weak speaker and a single vote

can call a vote to remove you that you can begin some kind of impeachment something in order to keep the government open, is that really where we've come? and sadly, the answer is yes. you know, look, a few weeks ago he threw them some red meat and said i'll censure adam schiff if you'll keep me speaker longer and now i'll move forward with impeachment of joe biden if you'll keep me as speaker a little longer. every time he does these sops to the right wing and maga crowd in his conference, it just brings the whole institution lower, and the people who were going to ultimately suffer, the american people, i think they will shut down the government and while so many of us want to focus on bringing down the cost of housing, addressing the fentanyl crisis, attacking inflation, attacking climate change, the real problems facing the american people, instead kevin

mccarthy's going to expend the nation's time and attention on this evidence for impeachment something or other, even as they shut down the government. >> i have to ask you one last question, just based on your role in the first impeachment and your role in decades on the intelligence committees, what do you make of the public statements of support for trump's legal standing from vladimir putin in the putin, kim jong-un hangout this week, and what do you make of the extraordinary contrast between this access of real threat to america and our allies represented by putin and kim jong-un, and the stakes that will be so much higher for putin in the upcoming election than they were in '16 and his willingness to get involved in '16 is now well documented. putin has soldiers on the battlefield in ukraine that he believes are directly threatened

by the current american president's support for that country. how are you thinking about russia as a threat to our elections in the coming presidential cycle? >> really in a couple ways, first foreign leaders do a psychological profile of our president, we do profiles of their leaders, and it doesn't require any kind of mastermind or genius on putin's part to essentially have donald trump's number. if you praise donald trump, you say nice things about him, he will do pretty much anything you want. he will stand next to you in helsinki and take your side over his own intelligence agencies. and trump tells him as much. trump loves to say, well, you know, he says nice things about me. and it's as simple as that. and of course there's the economic incentive for trump, too. he's always wanted that moscow trump tower, and he knows putin holds the key to that potential future real estate deal. so, you know, he is easily

manipulated by putin, but also, here you have putin now scraping the absolute bottom of the international barrel, going hat in hand to kim jong-un, the north korean despot for more artillery and in the bargain offering to help his missile technology, which will pose a real threat to the united states. it just shows what kind of a league putin is in and what kind of a league donald trump is in. you know, they have, i guess, this in common, donald trump was exchanging love letters with kim jong-un, and now it looks like so will vladimir putin. >> he's got competition, right, for kim jong-un's affections. congressman adam schiff, a truly extraordinary moment in the national conversation. we're grateful to get to ask you these questions. thank you for spending time with us. >> when we come back, rare public remarks from supreme court justice ketanji brown jackson on the dangers of history repeating itself.

we'll show them to you when we're back. e back

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with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times greater risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. even at your a1c goal, you're still at risk ...which if ignored could bring you here... ...may put you in one of those... ...or even worse. too much? that's the point. get real about your risks and do something about it. talk to your health care provider about ways to lower your risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. learn more at getrealaboutdiabetes.com we cannot allow concerns about discomfort to displace knowledge, truth, or history. it is certainly the case that parts of this country's story can be hard to think about. i know that atrocities like the one we are memorializing today are difficult to remember and relive, but i also know that it is dangerous to forget them.

we cannot forget because the uncomfortable lessons are often the ones that teach us the most about ourselves. >> wow. i could listen to that every day. it is dangerous to forget. and that was of course supreme court justice ketanji brown jackson today speaking at the 16th street baptist church in birmingham, alabama. 60 years ago today the church was bombed. justice jackson mourned the loss of those four young lives and urged the congregation and seemingly the country not the gloss over america's brutal and she said uncomfortable history of anti-black animus. warning that this lesson if forgotten is doomed to repeat itself. we're back with basil. wow.

>> tremendous remarks. i shout out her and my cousin who's exhibiting with her. he's exhibiting at the birmingham museum, and she came to visit his exhibit of photographs. so thank you to the justice for supporting the family. but if you listen to her remarks, what's amazing is that she called out the survivors and witnesses of the bombing, which suggests there are people still alive with that memory of the event. this is a living history, so when you think about everything that's happening around the country, the book banning, the changes of curriculum with negotiations with the college board around african american ap study exams, we're dealing with fact, and we're dealing with history. we're not dealing with fiction here, and that's why it's so important for these narratives to continue, for these stories to perpetuate because as she's said it's difficult to hear but

if we don't hear it, we don't learn from it. >> i think there's a real politic feel to what she's saying that the alternative is much worse, trust me. >> we're seeing the potential for the alternative. if you have a president who even the special prosecutor is concerned can cite violence. and i know grant earlier didn't want to say he was inciting violence, but his name and actions are suanonymous with violence. it may be we've had a worse time in our history, we actually did go to war, there was slavery that exists. so we've been through a lot in our nation, but that doesn't mean we don't go back to it. that's what everybody is afraid. what the stop gaps? how do we slow this thing down? and we're all wrestling with the fact we really don't know. and i think the justice's point is that if you're comfortable with the history mind you we'll

not only repeat it, but it'll hit your household soon enough. >> i just, you know, wonder how she feels seeing those cases coming to a court. >> i imagine it has to be very frustrating. but what i also in reading her opinions it's actually very encouraging because it reminds there are really intelligent people out there thinking seriously about this and always about expanding rights and not reducing and restricting rights. >> right, not from an ideological piece but towards the ark of justice bending. >> absolutely right. and if her remarks can train the next generation of attorneys to become judges to fill in those conservative spaces and replace them with more liberal ones and more thoughtful ones, then i think the job got done. >> basil, thank you. and congratulations to your cousin who's there.

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hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. we have some major breaking news for you in special counsel jack smith's election interference case. according to a brand new filing the special counsel is asking federal judge tonya chutkan to issue an order to restrict his speech when it comes to the case. quote, the government's order specifies such statements would include, "a," statements

regarding the identity, testimony, or credibility of perspective witnesses, and "b" any statements about any party, witness, attorney, court, personnel, or potential jurors that are disparaging and inflammatory or intimidating. joining us to talk about all of this, we're diving through it. it's one of the days we're reading. glenn kirschner is here and charlie sykes as well. and msnbc legal analyst lisa rubeen is here again to wade through this filing with us. i guess, lisa, my first question for you was, one, it was always going to come, wasn't it. >> he goes through trump's history of intimidating witnesses and others right after the 2020 election but through

the present day. and there is detail about social media posts, about the judge herself, about washingtonians and how they're going to be prejudiced against him, about lawyers of the special counsel, about biden and bill barr. and they go through that history and basically say it to her don't sanction him, gag him. and. >> and that is to preserve the potential for a fair trial. >> that's exactly right. basically he doesn't know this, but we're doing this for him. but they're also doing it for themselves. they're trying to ensure any trial in which trump is convicted is one immune from appeal on the basis he didn't get a fair shake, and they know he's doing everything he can to corrode justice in the district of d.c. >> we started the last hour with this sort of acknowledgement we don't hear much from jack smith, so we're left to deduce how he sees his case and how he sees his defendant through the filings. this is the most stark

description of it. let me read some of this. this is from the background section. set forth in the indictment after election day 2020, the defendant, that's donald trump, launched a disinformation campaign in which he publicly and widely broadcast knowingly false claims that have bip an outcome of determinative fraud in the presidential election and that he'd actually won. through false public statements the defendants sought to erode public faith in the administration of the election and to intimidate individuals who refuted his lies. the defendant is now attempting to do the same thing in this criminal case, to undermine confidence in the criminal justice system and prejudice the jury pool through disparaging and inflammatory attacks on the citizens of this district, the court, prosecutors, and perspective witnesses. the defendant, donald trump's, conduct presents a substantial likelihood of material prejudice to these proceedings and the court can and should take steps

to restrict such harmful extra judicial statements. >> nicolle, they're not just trying to prevent harm to the jury process. they're very clear there's a danger to individual people going on here, too. and they quote the fact a woman in texas was arrested for calling judge chutkan's chambers and making a direct threat to her. andologist accuse donald trump of lying and lying knowing to the contrary when they talk about a meeting of jay bratt at a meeting at the white house. they say that's not what happened at all, the office of the special counsel had a routine investigative interview of a career military official at that official's duty station, the white house. in other words, donald trump is perverting the facts here in order not only to corrupt this trial but to endanger people who are intrinsic to the justice

we're trying to do. >> charlie, i'm going to say something people say private all the time and not on tv very often, something really bad is going to happen. okay, shit's about to hit the fan in this country. fox news spewing hatred and death threats from democratic officials in new york because of a migrant caucus. everyone is on -- everyone knows we're walking into something hideous and no one will do anything. i refuse to believe nothing can be done. these people getting their information in part because of the vacuum being created by people -- i don't even know we call it a spine anymore. that might be an insult to spines. but there's still people out there with followings. he can go out -- here's what i want to ask you. when something happens what do you want to tell your kids and grandkids you did? you good with nothing? trump tweeted something mean about me someday.

because you did something, i tried to do something. where are all the republicans who still have little slivers of a following in the cesspool that is the maga base? >> look, all of the red lights are blipging about what is about to happen, and i think that's what makes what jack smilgt is doing so important because he's saying, okay, right now this is a stress test for the entire criminal justice system, but the republicans are not going to step up. they are not going to raise their hands. we know mitch mcconnell is not going to come out of his bunker and say what he said after january 6th. but what i think was so powerful about this document, which i've just skimmed is the way that jack smith basically sounds all of those alarms and says, look, this is not just theoretical, look what he's done in the past, look what he's doing right now. and i know the word gag order is going to be thrown around a lot, but what he's really saying is that donald trump needs to be held to the same standard that any other criminal defendant

would be held to, but also to alert the court to the extent of this campaign to discredit and attack and demean judges and jurors and prosecutors to discredit the entire process. this is not just one trial among any. donald trump is not just one defendant among any. this is the former president of the united states who is prepared to call out the furies, who is prepared to stoke violence and tell people to come because it will be wild. again, with all these red lights blinking, the silence that we've gotten used to, i think becomes less defensible because what happens in 2024 could be horrific. it is likely to be horrific. and all of the people that enabled it and rationalized it and looked the other way, ought to be held to account in some way at least in their conscience if not politically. >> i mean, glenn -- talked about

a person who wished her harm to came to her door to kill her and her son she believes protected her and her husband. the rule of law isn't nameless. the rule of law is moms with kids who answer the door. the rule of law is judges who by no choice of their own ended up with these cases. and i wonder if you think this is a crisis that has a solution at this point. >> a solution, i don't know that i'm willing to go that far. i will say, nicolle, i had almost given up hope there was a last straw, but finally we've got -- i wouldn't call it a gag order, but i've been saying all along we need some narrowly tailored restrictions on donald

trump's dangerous, inflammatory speech and his posts. and i had almost given up hope that we would ever see a prosecutor step up. think back a few months to when we saw donald trump post a picture of himself with a baseball bat appearing to be mid-swing and in the adjacent frame he put a picture or he retweeted this, a picture of the person who was prosecuting him for felony crimes in new york, crimes that some people may just say, well, it involved falsifying business records. no, it involved falsifying business records to try to steal the 2016 presidential election by very deeply damaging information about playmates and porn stars, and then in the next frame he has that prosecutor with his hands up raised as if either defending himself or surecommendering and it looks like donald trump is about to clock him with a baseball bat. i thought this is the last

straw, but there were so many more straws in the box. thank goodness we now have jack smith stepping up to try to protect people and to try to protect and preserve the integrity of the jury system. just a few days ago in donald trump's most recent rally he said and this is just about a verbatim quote, joe biden ordered me indicted on 91 charges across four jurisdictions. that is demonstrably false. and yet when there is no push back against those kind of lies, those kind of jury pool poisoning lies, what happens? people tend to believe them because it's like, well, nobody said joe biden didn't order him indicted on 91 charges across four jurisdictions. so thank goodness we're finally going to, you know, grab this issue by the throat and try to wrestle it to the ground

figuratively to protect witnesses and to preserve the integrity of our criminal justice system. >> you know, i think, paul, our best hope is to grab it by the tail not the throat anymore. on august 4th donald trump truthed this, quote, if you come after me, i'm coming after you. this was in jack smith's filing today. also in jack smith's filing today on page 7, and this is from the examples jack smith writes this. the defendant has posted repeated inflammatory attacks on the judicial system, the court, and the citizens of the district of columbia who comprise the jury pool in this case. quote, that the court is rigged against him, that the quote is fraud dressed up in washington, d.c. who is a radical obama hacked or is biased trump hating judge and that he can't get a fair trial from the residents of this filthy and crime ridden district that is over 95% anti-trump. and then the exhibits are just

that, in trump's own words, quote, the obama appointed judge and free speech by me shared professional ties with the law firm worked for energy company burisma, absolute what bill barr recalled bull sihit. but this is what's going to not just most friends and family who he rants to but millions of supporters, as you already mentioned a woman in texas a plan to harm judge chutkan. >> it's about damn time someone put a gag on him because it's about our national security. it's about everyone's security in this country, not just political leaders. this entire environment in the country is being driven by this guy who's endangering our national security. something did happen. january 6th happened. they tried to overthrow our government violently. a guy broke into nancy pelosi's house and hit her husband with a hammer. there's a conspiracy to kid nap

and kill a governor. it's happening all the time and it's being driven by this irresponsible, aggressive violent rhetoric coming from someone who used to be the commander in chief and being back stopped by someone like mike flynn, the national security advisor, and it's endangering all of us. i told you before i thought it was going to be the justice department or someone like that. it's not going to be the republicans, not going to be the democrats. these are the guardrails in america hitting. finally someone is taking action to keep america safe, because that's ultimately what this is about. >> nicolle, can i add something for a second because the department of justice is saying in this filing that the danger september just donald trump and the danger isn't just to the participants in the case including the larger jury pool in washington, d.c. there's a quote on 16 where they say a supplemental order that is particularly warranted.

and they go onto describe the interviews john lauro did and say he did a series of detailed interviews which he tainted the jury pool by disseminating information about the case and potential witness and describing in detail legal defenses he plans to mount including defenses that may never be raised in court or rejected by the court before ever reaching the jury. she is saying or rather jack smith's office is saying here that john lauro is part of the problem. trump is not just the only problem. and they are also pointing out that the whole department of justice and the fbi, they're in danger, too. it goes to what our colleague ken dilanian reported the other day with the establishment of this threat unit at the fbi to protect fbi and doj folks, there's a whole new unit just designed to ensure that those who work in the bureau and those who work in the department of justice are protected against the threats that increasingly face them. they double over the last six months and previous 12 months

and saying those involved in the criminal justice system who are reading reasonably steer they could be the next targets. and we know from the judge and others that's not an illusory threat. that could be very real for people here, and i appreciate they've made this concrete and they do something short of just finding him money but find a solution that will tamp down the rhetoric. >> by including that paragraph about the interviews he did you already said multiple networks, do you think they're calling us out, too? is it a note about platforming? >> it's an interesting question. i mean certainly we did not ask for the statements that john lauro made, but as you know, nicolle, yourself and as many of our colleagues know there is a fine line between interrupting and letting people say their piece, and we face that fine line every day.

>> let me read the section. a supplemental order that extends some of the opprobitions that apply to the defense counsel and the defendant himself is particularly warranted. the defendant's lead counsel began a series of lengthy and detailed interviews in which he potentially tainted the jury pool by disseminating information and opinions about there case and a potential witness and described in detail legal defense he plans to mount including defenses that may never be raised in court or may be rejected by the court before ever reaching a jury. i understand and appreciate and abide by the privileges afforded to me in the first amendment, but i don't do any of those things in my program. i don't -- i don't disseminate information and opinions about a case that are going to -- they're basically saying by platforming john lauro there could be a mistrial or tainting the jury pool. >> as a participant in the

criminal justice process, john lauro can be put under certain restrictions that wouldn't apply to members of it press. and the local rule they're citing here is one that applies to attorneys as well as to participants in the process whether plaintiffs or defendants. it's a rule the department of justice essentially incorporates into how they behave in any prosecution. you noted at the beginning jack smith and his folks, we don't hear much from them and that's by design because they want to respect the integrity of the process. by asking this order to apply to the defense counsel as well, they're trying to ensure the defense counsel respects the integrity of the process as well. >> glenn kirschner, let me read some more from this and have you speak to me and talk me through what you think happened before they got to this point, because i think you sort of describe this spilling over, the pent-upness that you were feeling, and i want to draw that out in you. this is from the beginning of the filing. the defendant has an established practice of issuing statements

targeted at individuals or institutions that present an obstacle or challenge to him. in the period between the presidential election on november 3, 2020, and the congressional certification proceeding on january 6, 2021, the defendant trained his focus on the election system including election officials and other individuals carrying out civic duties to implement fair elections in various states. as a result the defendant engendered widespread mistrust in the election and the individuals who he targeted were subject to threats and harassment. it's an important paragraph because it could be written in the present-tense. that's still the country we live in because of donald trump. >> and for so long everybody seems to have been willing to bend over backwards to protect donald trump's first amendment free speech rights, and, you know, that is of some consequence, but we seem to be willing to sacrifice the safety of prosecutors, judges,

witnesses, grand jurors, potentially trial jurors. we certainly seem to be willing to sacrifice the ability of courts to impanel fair and impartial jurors, and i have to say going back to the discussion you were just having about john lauro, donald trump's lead defense attorney in the january 6th case, i was in court and i heard john lauro acting and behaving not like donald trump's defense attorney but more like his assistant campaign manager when he said, and i can pretty much quote him verbatim. he said we will be raising issues on behalf of donald trump and on behalf of the american people. if you ever want to see my blood pressure spike as a former career prosecutor, have a defense attorney tell the public -- because this was a public proceeding, that he would be raising issues on behalf of the american people. that's not his job. it's not his responsibility. it's not within the ethics of

what he is charged to do. he represents donald trump and donald trump's interests alone. but what i heard when he said that, nicolle, was the echoes of donald trump saying they're not prosecuting me, they're prosecuting you. and john lauro echoed that, parroted it, mimicked it in a way that i believe violated some ethical rules potentially. of course the next step will be let's see how john lauro and donald trump's criminal defense lawyers respond to it, and then let's see what the judge dauz because just because there's been a request does not guarantee this is what any, you know, restriction on donald trump's speech will ultimately look like after the judge makes her decision, and then the next question i think we're all going to be asking ourselves is, you know, when donald trump violates these conditions what happens

next. >> let me just -- let me just follow up with you quickly, but it almost -- whatever happens next, it's all in black and white now. it's all been submitted. it's all on paper. this is the something bad's going to happen filing. let me read more to you. quote, the defendant knows when he publicly attacks individuals and institutions, inspires others to perpetrate threats and harassment against his targets. on december 1, 2020, as the defendant was fueling an intense national atmosphere of mistrust and anger regarding the election, a georgia election official held a widely televised press conference in which he pleaded with the defendant, donald trump, to stop. stating if he did not, quote, someone's going to get hurt, someone's going to get shot, someone's going to get killed. the defendant did not stop. instead he continued even to the present to attack individuals whom he knows already suffered threats and harassment as a result of his words. for instance, on november 17th

the defendant fired, redacted his appointed director of the department of homeland security, cyber security and infrastructure, chris krebs asserting the 2020 election was the, quote, most secure in u.s. history. another example on page 4, in 2020 the defendant and coconspirators spread false accusations of misconduct against another redaction that it's described this way as a georgia election worker in another redaction. as a result they were inundated by threats. we know this is shaye moss and ruby freeman. to paul's point, glenn, it's already happening, it's already happened, and we as a country haven't done anything. >> no. and trump, you know, tried to dismantle the institutions of government, the institutions of the military, of law enforcement, and the department of justice because he knew that they would be coming for him someday for the many crimes he committed, and when that happened he wanted to be able to say, well, you see, you can't

trust those institutions that are coming after your favorite president who was stolen from you courtesy of a rigged election. and like you say, nicolle, we have let him get away with it literally for years. and, listen, better late than never. but, you know, you ask at the beginning is there a solution to this problem? i don't know that there's a solution. i'm glad we're making incremental progress, but i will say, and i've said this before and some people just say, yeah, well you're a crazy career prosecutor and you -- >> literally nobody says that. >> some of my friends do. but here's the thing, the law has a mechanism for dealing with a defendant -- and this is a defendant facing four felony prosecutions, federal and state alike. there's a mechanism in the law when somebody by clear and convincing evidence is a danger

to the community, that person is detained pending trial as a way to neutralize the threat. donald trump surpassed danger to the community a long time ago, and the system has been unwilling to do what it would have done to any other person who was pending for felony trials and was a demonstrated danger to the community. but if you use the rufl as it was intended and you confine donald trump pend trial that would neutralize the threat, and it would give both donald trump, frankly, and we the people at least a fighting chance at impanelling a fair and independent jury that was untainted by what donald trump has been spewing into the public square now for years. >> you know, charlie, who thought trump should be referred for criminal prosecution for his role in the january 6th insurrection, who was really the first person to publicly refer donald trump for prosecution for

his role, who should be an enthusiastic defender and enthusiastic referee. a person who mitt romney says believed the impeachment case was nailed, that they nailed trump. joe biden just gave him a public relations lifeline by giving him a clean bill of health. mitch mcconnell gets a lot of grace from people who refuse to become what the other side is. even i've had a lot of conversations, but mitch mcconnell sees the trump story not too differently from the way you or i do, but mitch mcconnell would never say anything to protect the institutions donald trump is actively threatening and destroying. >> no, he had a moment of choosing, and he chose to look the other way figuring somebody else would handle this, which of

course has been the story over the last decade or so. but could i also pick up on a point you made, nicolle, that i do think we need to talk about. when you asked whether or not the special counsel was sending a shot across the bow of the news media and whether or not they've been platforming, you know, many of the people who are putting out this disinformation and the insults and attempts to discredit the criminal justice system. look, i am a strong supporter of the first amendment, and you made this point. but i do think at some point we need to have a conversation about what we've learned since 2016 and the responsibility of the media to report what people are saying accurately but not necessarily turning over unedited airtime to people who are spreading lies and disinformation. and i think this is also the challenge that i don't know that the news media has really, you

know, gotten its head around, which is how do you treat an abnormal candidate like donald trump as a -- as a normal candidate? how do you cover him? do you give him a platform to put out this kind of snfrgz? because if we are concerned about tainting the jury pool, of putting out signals to people who might act violently, what is then the responsibility of the people who control the airways to not amplify that unnecessarily? and i'm not suggesting that there's an easy answer to this because, i mean, we had the debate around the cnn town hall, and, you know, the folks at cnn said, well, you know, we have to cover him, he's newsworthy. and that of course was true, but do you need to platform him in that particular way? that's also a moment of choosing. do you air the threats and the lies unchallenged? do you actually decide that --

that donald trump the -- as you described the twice impeached, defeated, disgraced ex-president who now faces four criminal indictments is just another newsmaker out there. and i think this is going to be a huge challenge, and i think that the news media failed horribly back in 2016, and the question is whether they've learned anything for 2024. >> trump calls on all of us to examine ourselves on and in our platforms every moment of every day. i think a lot of people are. charlie, i'm very interested in having that conversation with you over the coming days and weeks, actually with all of you. i think what's important in that context today, though, is that trump constantly benefits by casting people in normal positions who aren't normal and aren't doing normal things, so he has cast a criminal defense attorney who i think he thinks

looks like the guys who defended the athletes that were caught doing illegal drugs. they all kind of look like those lawyers who you only saw when those guys were accused of things who -- i don't know i'm not a psychologist. i constantly wish i were. so in the casting of someone with a named lawyer, people in those cast positions get booked on normal programs to answer questions that you would ask a normal lawyer. and if i would -- if i would sort of critique one thing is that this isn't normal. the other thing for the press is we don't exist in the second trump term. i mean go find a new job, learn to bake, learn to write, learn to coach, learn to teach because these jobs won't exist. so we're not neutral. we're not neutral bystanders in a contest between an autocratic party and democratic party. i was a lifelong republican. i hear it on my feed every day how george bush was -- there's a

lot to say about that. but i think in today's conversation in jack smith's filing there's a paragraph on page 16 about how john lauro has done something dangerous to the rule of law, dangerous to washington, d.c., and dangerous to the chance of a free and fair trial. and so it is in that spirit we have merely scratched the surface of this very important -- you know there's nothing important to me, charlie. lisa, i'll give you the last word on what you think happens next. >> i think we're going to see a briefing here from donald trump on the 30th, and hold a hearing which i hope folks like me will be in the room. because lack of television as you know makes it difficult for the public to follow what's going on in these federal proceedings. i think it's likely she'll enter a tailored order that prevents donald trump and his defense

counsel from talking about the witnesses in this case and poisoning injury pool. i also think if we didn't get to talk about this, that she's going to put some guardrails around how they pull juries. she wants to make sure they're not going to do the equivalent of a political push-pull. nicolle, i want to go back to something charlie just said because i've learned about this business at the elbow of rachel maddow who says watch what they do, not what they say. and what he says becomes what they do, and how we all wrestle with that and make our way around that without platforming him is the challenge for all of us as we seek to bear truth to what's going on in our politics and civic life. >> say more. >> you know, we try not to amplify his words. it is on ethos many of us at this network share. we don't want to repeat the calls to violence and yet what

he's saying becomes action in his followers hands and the government actually notices that in the brief. they say as he acknowledged in a televised town hall on may 10, 2023, they're referring to the cnn town hall, his supporters listen to him like no one else. he understands full well of that power, he boasts of that power and he could turn it down any time but chooses not to. >> he's issuing orders. >> we focused on a lot of leaders who had followers who represented a threat. >> it's a culture of intimidation. he's created a culture of intimidation, and the question for the media on some levels is do you show the car crash that gets ratings? because that's a part of this, too. it does get ratings and people do watch, and there's a responsibility to not show the car crash sometimes and not amplify the hatred and direct orders to do things like take the capitol. there's a lot of responsibility that needs to be --

>> we'll have this conversation and it'll be messy but with your help we'll continue to have this conversation on this show. lisa, thank you so much. you literally ran into the studio with us to do this. when we come back, republicans in wisconsin ousted the state's top election official after years of baseless attacks over the integrity of the elections there. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. as a police administrator. i oversee approximately 20 people and my memory just has to be sharp. i always hear people say, you know, when you get older, you know, people lose memory. i didn't want to be that person. i decided to give prevagen a try. my memory became much sharper. i remembered more! i've been taking prevagen for four years now. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. ♪ shelves. shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock.

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political pressures have forced a group of our lawmakers to embrace unfounded rumors

about my leadership, my role on the commission, and our system of elections. i've said it multiple times and i'll say it again, elections in wisconsin are run with integrity. they are fair, and they are accurate. >> that was wisconsin state elections chief meghan wolf after the republican super majority in the state legislature voted to oust her from her position, oust her from her job. wolf is suing to keep the post and continue in the role while the issue plays out in the courts. she's being represented by the state's democratic attorney general. wolf was wildly popular in the run up to the 2020 election, confirmed by unanimous vote in the senate in 2019 but became a target for conspiracy theorists after donald trump lost in her state. joining our conversation wisconsin attorney general josh

caul. mr. attorney general tell us how and if this is different from the pressures and the disinformation that drive the story we started the hour talking about, jack smith's efforts to have a fair trial in washington, d.c. amid all the disinformation and threats. >> this is part and parcel of what we're seeing in other contexts. following the 2020 election in wisconsin, our assembly conducted an investigation that was led boy a former state supreme court justice, michael gabealman, that was really an embarrassing episode that involved lots of conspiracy theories. and i sort of thought that was behind us, but then the state senate decided to take up this issue, and the hearing they held, they heard all sorts of election denialism, directly from michael gableman himself and then they took this vote. state law is very clear there

was no appointment before our state senate. i wrote a letter to legislative counsel laying that out. legislative counsel, and despite that they happen so intent demonstrating their loyalty to election denial. they went forward with this unlawful vote. i'm confident mayor wolf will remain the administrator of our election commission and we'll win the case, but this is really troubling sign from our senate they are fully onboard with the types of attacks we're seeing since donald trump came on the scene. >> there's a direct call and response. we talk about that a lot between the four times indicted ex-president donald trump and insurrectionists who storm the capital. but here's the call and response from trump to supporters in wisconsin. i'm not going to play it, but he says this in august 2022 quote despite evidence of fraud and rigging, speaker vause has taken

no steps to hold the election commission accountable. trump continuing to smear and threaten and attack election officials. how do you protect the integrity of the state's elections systems as well as the individuals like meghan? >> well, we stand up for the truth and we standby the rule of law. knowing the results of the elections were challenged in 2020, we stood up and my office defended the many cases that were brought where trump tried to overturn the results. and we won every single one of those cases, and court after court found there was no basis for overturning the results. when michael gableman came forward with his bogus investigation, we challenged that, and ultimately the speaker robin vauss said gableman who he'd hired was an embarrassment to the state of wisconsin. every time these falsehoods are

raised, we need to stand up. when we do stand up for democracy, we win time after time. we need to remain individual lpt because these efforts to undermine confidence in our public elections, continue to be brought and this vote is just the latest example of that. >> i want to ask you a two-part question. where does this go next in the courts, and i guess if we stipument 61 of those 62 cases the trump campaign brought were defeated in the courts, that's reassuring. but i want to ask you of the fact republicans are seeking to impeach if you feel like you have to navigate that dynamic as well. >> yeah, well, first of all, it's important to note i think we are going to win this case. we filed suit shortly after the senate took its vote, and i'm hopeful that we will see a court -- we have no doubt whatsoever and i don't think there is any doubt at this point that our administrator remains in place and she's fully

empowered to continue doing her job, and i'm confident we'll continue to have elections in wisconsin that are free and fair. now, in terms of what the fact we continue to have election denialism means we need to be ready for more litigation, more challenges to the process we have. and, again, i am confident that the facts are on the side of -- of going our elections work well, but we need to keep making that point. >> do you come across people sort of in your daily life who are just convinced the disinformation because we look at the national polls, but lots of times when we talk to state officials, it's not an abstract idea. it's maybe someone they see a drop off or someone they know in their life. do you have to deal with reality and trying to impart back some people that you know and come across in our daily life? >> i think that's part of the concern we're seeing.

the senate here when they try to justify this, their explanation is people have lost confidence in the election commission, and the reason they've lost confidence is we have election officials and of course the former president himself who are spewing misinformation about this. the way to address these problems is not by firing an election official that's doing their job but by countering the disinformation and responding with the truth. and with respect to the impeachment issue that you mentioned before, that again is part and parcel of these attacks on our democracy. we just had an election in spring. it was a landslide result which in wisconsin is really unusual. and despite that we've got threats to impeachment justice. this is an effort to take power away from voters to control our own destiny. what is at the foundation of this country, that's what's being attacked by folks who are putting their stamp of approval on this. and the more we see republicans as well as democrats speak out, the sooner we're going to get to the other side of this. >> attorney general josh kaul

who has very, very busy days ahead of him, we appreciate you taking some time to talk to us. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> charlie and paul stick around a bit longer. kick break for us. when we come back a high stakes legal battle in the supreme court over the biden administration's ability to fight disinformation. ability t fight disinformation

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appear to increase the risk infection over time. most people in the united states recognize that the safety of these vaccines is unlike, certainly unlike flu, which they always pair it with and compare it to, but this is different type of medication, and it's an unsafe medication. >> i wish i had the buzzer like in survey says and like -- those were lies. those were lies by florida's sitting current surgeon general, lies that right now today as the lies were broadcast on fox news, put peoples lives in danger, not just people living in florida where he's a government official but anyone who heard that because we know that covid vaccines do help avert serious illness. the cdc in its latest recommendation out earlier this week said, quote, vaccination is the most effective tool to protect yourself this fall and winter. while it may be no surprise that

the florida surgeon general's comments got zero push back on the network of which he appeared, it is important for the health of our country that lies get exposed under what they are, that lies are met with fact checks in realtime and the truth so that we as a functioning democracy can all inhabit what we refer to this on program as a different place where that happened, earth one. which is why the white house is pushing back in court in its fight against disinformation. the justice department has adjust asked the highest court in the nation to pause a ruling from the federal appeals court. "the new york times" reports this, quote, the case a major test of the role of the first amendment in the internet era will require the court to consider when government efforts to limit the spread of misinformation amount to censorship of constitutionally protected speech. supreme court justice samuel alito issued a brief stay of the lower court ruling until the end of next week and ordered the republican attorneys general of

louisiana and missouri who originally brought the case to file in response to the doj's application by wednesday. we're back with charlie and paul. paul, this feels incredibly high stakes. covid isn't it only example, but i'm thinking back to the covid isn't the only example. but i'm thinking back to the election lies. if you can't as a government say no, trump lost, i don't know that you still live in a democracy. >> no. it's all intertwined in this culture of intimidation. we're talking about trump's free speech. trump's free speech is repressing everyone else's free speech and that's the issue. there's always a struggle between security and free speech, that's been true since the beginning of our country. we keep hitting these points where it's clear he in this ecosystem, something i've called the american glaens in the insu past, is suppressing courtesy,

all the basic things in our society, at all points. endangering your health, national security, disrupting school boards. the point we talked about is critical. we also don't talk about how many people face direct threats every day. every elected official, especially people like liz cheney, adam kinzinger, mitt romney talking about how much security he needs just to do his job. people in our business too. anybody who goes on tv and speaks out against these folks, you worry about walking to your car on the way out. that's the culture he has created in this country. it geese all the way down to the school board. people are afraid to speak up in a school board, they're worried they're going to get jumped outside. that's the command climate that trump has created, the culture of intimidation he has created. it goes all the way down to your vaccines. i think a bigger point here, he was also sympathizing with putin this week. putin loves this. our enemies love this. imagine how bin laden would have celebrated nobody taking a vaccine, people attacking each

other out in the open, direct attacks on our politicians. this is our enemy's dream. and it's all intertwined into what should be a national security priority and not just a political discussion. >> yeah, charlie, this is the -- put it on our list to expand upon. i think about this in the context of the dominion voting systems case. there's so much latitude to express an opinion, to say, well, i had the original series but i'm going to boost every other year. that's not what the right wants the right to say. they want the right to outright lie about vaccines. they want the right to say what the florida surgeon general said on the network clip we showed you. and so i think it's important that people understand what the government is fighting for is not the right to curb the first kind of speech. "well, i do a flu shot." they're not seeking to limit personal prerogatives about whether or not you vaccinate your newborn. they're seeking to have the

ability to respond to outright lies. and i'm not sure there's anything higher stakes at this moment for our democracy than that. >> well, i want to make two points. number one, what the florida surgeon general is saying is not just a lie, it is a reckless thing that endangers lives and kill people. i think we ought to call him out as loudly as possible. i'm going to take a contrarian take to the court case, because i did earlier today read the fifth circuit court of appeals decision which basically did say the words, first amendment issue, that we don't want officials of the federal government to use their power as state actors to intimidate and silence speech. this is speech that we don't -- that is dangerous, that are lies. but the court came down basically on the position of, this is a first amendment issue. and i guess this is complicated,

because you certainly understand why it is the responsibility of the federal government to push back against disinformation. on the other hand, let's fast forward to 2025. i really do hope the courts erect these guardrails against a federal government that might want to call up news media outlets or call up social media and pressure them and bully them and coerce them to silencing voices they don't like. now, again, this is why we have the first amendment. and trump 2.0, as you mentioned a little bit earlier, creates an entirely different environment. so i think every time one of these issues comes up, what powers do we want the government to have? do we want people in the federal government to be able to call up and say, hey, nice media outlet you had there, it would be a shame if something bad happened to it. when the good guys do it, we go, hey, that's fine. but this is the danger of power. so i was a little bit more

sympathetic to the way the fifth circuit court ruled on that, because i do hope the courts continue to have their thumb on the scale in favor of the first amendment and restraining the power of the federal government. because i guess i am using my imagination. how would we want the court to rule if this was the trump administration trying to intimidate and coerce and bully folks? so again, it's going to be interesting how this plays out. this is one of those conversations we have to have in the new internet era. how do we fight disinformation without trampling upon free speech rights? not an easy question. >> it's an important admonishment, that every conversation we have to have has to hold up if the people back in the cockpit are different people at the controls. i guess my question for you, charlie, it also ends up in the category of where the norms have failed us. i think the biden administration ends up here -- at some point it might have been inconceivable a

social media company wouldn't take down doxing information about someone, but here we are. >> because all the other norms have failed. what are the guardrails? to paul's point, that we live in this culture of intimidation and bullying, there was once a time within our lifetime when we would have had responsible actors in the private sector, in government, who would have pushed back against that. who would have said, we're not going to tolerate that, we're not going to disseminate that. we don't live in that world anymore. the situation that we have now with deadly disinformation, how do we push back against it without breaking certain things we want to protect, like the first amendment? and nobody's really figured this out yet. >> i feel like this is when my former colleague, brian williams, would say, "this is why we can't have nice things." complicated. charlie, paul, thank you so much

for rolling with us on a day of breaking news. we're really grateful. our thanks to you for letting us into your homes again during these truly extraordinary times. we are so grateful. "the beat with ari melber" start s after a quick break. book a work trip. earn onekeycash. shake some hands. do not forget to laugh. [laughing] book a get-away-from-work trip. use onekeycash. order some sides. do not disturb. join one key to earn and use rewards across expedia, hotels.com, and vrbo. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ jardiance ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee. ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes

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